Look, like I said, the whole narrative is tremendously skewed. First, anti-zionism is not anti-Semitism. And the confusion feeds anti-Semitism. Until we can get the narrative straight (Israel is an imperialist nation that has stolen the Palestinians' land, backed by the "Western powers") there is no hope of straightening out the situation.
Look, like I said, the whole narrative is tremendously skewed. First, anti-zionism is not anti-Semitism. And the confusion feeds anti-Semitism. Until we can get the narrative straight (Israel is an imperialist nation that has stolen the Palestinians' land, backed by the "Western powers") there is no hope of straightening out the situation.
When Jewish students are attacked on campuses for being Jewish and the University administration does not come to their defense that is anti semitism and it is intolerable and that is what is happening at these elite campuses who receive massive amounts of money from Middle East donors with of course no strings attached. This is not complicated at all.
The Palestine Arts/literary Festival (not sure of the exact name) that took place on the Penn campus in September (but was not coordinated nor funded by the school) occurred in September. Many weeks prior to the Hamas attack on Israel and not at all related. It seems that Magill was vilified for even тАЬallowingтАЭ this to happen. Meanwhile, the right wingers clutch their pearls about supposed leftist attacks on free speech forgetting about their outright tolerance/support of Nazi speakers at Berkeley a few years ago. The hypocrisy is astounding. I wish these women had stood their ground and not resigned despite these arrogant, rich donor threats. That would have been a powerful statement. I am quite certain that men in their same positions wouldnтАЩt have stepped down so readily.
I obtained a masters degree from a Private University, back in 1972, and even back then there was a cadre of doltish Marxists, that were bent on making trouble.
It has only gotten worse. Berkeley is a den of snobbish, self congratulatory, immature and childish hypocrites. The champion equal rights, the rights of women for autonomy, then boycott speakers who dare call the suffocating abaya, chador, niqab and burga bee keeper suits, because they are demeaning and oppressive to woman, but that is alright with these dolts, because these are Muslim countries, and "everybody" knows that Muslims are persecuted peoples, despite the fact that they are the 2nd largest religious cult in the world and rule the Midast, the gulf, Iran, Iraq, Turkey Afghanistan, Pakistan, Malaysia, Indonesia,, North Africa and many countries in Africa
Then again we have Christians who are the majority in America crying persecution.
Then again I have to blame those who turned persecution into a world wide public relations tool, to manipulate emotions and politics.
Success breeds imitation. Now every group is persecuted and persecution that is valid, has lost its punch. Like the boy who cried wolf.
Now antisemitism being recognized as a clarion call to genocide of the Jews, it is relegated to the same category as racism, misogyny, homophobia. Instead of evoking outrage, it evokes yawns, dismissal and so what isms.
To be explicitly clear: those "boycotted" speakers incite hate openly; they were only not allowed to speak because the tiny hateful minority that invited them couldn't afford the security budget that university policies (which apply to all speakers/hosts) require.
But it can Barbara. The 1st Amendment does not enfranchise "free speech" nor does it bane Hate Speech. It simply places the restriction on congress and says that it shall not back laws that prohibit speech or assembly.
It does not restrict corporations, media, the internet, people, students, the university.
However corporations, universities, states, counties and municipalities can, without violating the 1st Amendment.
But even the Federal Government, congress and thus with a vested interest, promote the myth of free speech, Including Whitehouse.gov.
Point is that a university and a student union can, and do, censor speech all of the time. Call an abaya or chador or niqab or burqa, an assault on women, and find out how fast the university and the student union circumscribe your right to "free speech"
Mike, Respectfully, the answer is not to block. Nothing will change if we donтАЩt try and engage. Since October7th, IтАЩve followed my own advice on several Substacks, and, though the exchanges have been challenging and time-consuming, IтАЩve relished those moments when civility replaced adversity.
You are right on, Barbara Jo: "though the exchanges have been challenging and time-consuming, IтАЩve relished those moments when civility replaced adversity."
The problem, though, is that while some Trump-supporters can engage in civil discourse, they can't break out of their MAGA trance. Only a massive voter turnout can dislodge the Republican party, but I fear the Trump-trance will continue until the Orange-One leaves this mortal coil.
Abraham, First, I would note I agree that тАЬmassive voter turnoutтАЭ is critical if we expect to win elections up and down the ballot. Second, I would clarify, as displayed in forums such as this, that, despite agreement on a host of issues, Democrats remain alarmingly polarized on matters pertaining to Israel-Palestine. Accordingly, the dialogue I deem most critical is the one among ourselves.
Yes, the fractures in the Democratic coalition are seriously worrying and likely to draw down turnout, or even flip some blues to red.
Hopefully the Israel-Palestine divide will smooth over by next Nov.
But Dems need a UNIFYING issue or message, and right now I think that could be abortion. The Texas case has people up in arms all over the country, but can that outrage be sustained til Nov.
Many elections are decided by single issue voters so if abortion is the issue, and if a similarly dramatic case arises in the Fall, then that might overshadow other issues and be the catalyst for a Blue Wave.
Repubs won the Presidency (and the Supreme Court) with massive Evangelical "pro-life" support; so this time Dems could do the same thing in reverse. It's all very cynical, but that's the reality of modern American politics.
Also, strange as it seems, mega-superstar Taylor Swift is very pro-choice and now actively encouraging his mass of followers (especially young women coming into voting age) to register and vote out Republicans across the board. Her effectiveness is shown by the juvenile, obscene and even violent attacks on her by podcasters like Charlie Kirk and his followers. Taylor now has the power, and young white males are scared to death of her.
Marshall McLuhan, a Canadian media guru from the 1960s, predicted that celebrities would dominate politics in the future. Well we're in the future and celebrities like Ronald Reagan, Arnold Schwarzenegger, and of course TV Trump all did it, so why not celebrity Taylor. And she doesn't even have to run for office; she has a mass audience and she just has to get them registered and to the polls. Maybe she'll do "voting concerts" where her followers can register at the concert and maybe get "I'm Voting With Taylor" bracelets.
Whatever it takes, Trumpism & MAGA must be defeated in Nov. 2024
In the Democrat Party, the divisions are between human rights and anti-semitism. We in this party get caught up in semantics which is neither good nor bad, just problematic. ItтАЩs true that Israel is another Imperialist nation who conquered the Arabs and stole land and property in 1943. As it has moved further to the right, NetanyahuтАЩs ruling body has become more and more dictatorial. Did Bibi know of the potential attack and not take it seriously as a reason to bomb Gaza into oblivion? Who knows? But over the generations and especially now with college and HS age students, they see the years of David v. Goliath savagery waged against the Palestinian people. They see the deaths of 10 Israelis followed by the deaths of 100 Palestinians. They read about the razing of тАШillegalтАЩ villages, only to e replaced by Jewish kibbutzes. They read about the lack of water to Gaza and the Palestinian people and ask, why are Israeli citizens so inhumane? This generation has read and studied about the Holocaust. This generation of liberal young people hate antisemitism and White Nationalism. They tend to despise anything that dehumanizes other people. But they also understand that a people that have such a history of being killed, tortured, and displaced should not be so willing to decimate another people as the Israeli government and their Western allies are doing in what they feel are open air prisons in Gaza and the West Bank. If the divisions within the Democratic Party addressed and corrected, we will have to come to some agreement on how to define what is going on in Gaza, and how the US, as an ally, can be both an ally to Israel and a true advocate of peace, Palestinian humanity, and a two state Gaza.
Seems our leaders aren't listening to us. No billions for RW Netanyahu. Israelis in the streets don't trust him to do war and keep them safe. He is a con. I don't ether want to pay for Gaza genocide or Hamas mercenaries hired by Netanyahu. Makes the whole thing a lie with our tax dollars used to kill many for a RW agenda for more land and power.
I'm really not sure what the younger generations know or think; they seem to be living in another world from me (I'm 77).
But anti-status-quo, anti-war, etc. usually starts with the young; and this time they are playing out that role with their current anti-Israel protests.
But they are probably as fractured as the rest of the country, and I wasn't really joking about a mega-celebrity like Taylor Swift motivating a huge contingent of new voters to register and vote.
If that helps to end MAGA and Trumpism, then America can start to find some common core of values and address the many problems facing us all.
So many problems, and so much polarization, but Job Number One is to end Trumpism. The Dems are far from perfect, but Trump will lead the country into authoritarianism (just to keep himself out of jail) and that must be stopped.
Only an insecure fool bloc ks someone. You can stick your fingers in your ear, but that doesn't shut them up. I want to hear what others are saying, that way I can counter them.
We blocked hate speech for years, but then comes along the Champion of Hate Speech, DJT, and now all of that hate speech that has been welling up in the breasts of the deplorables, is now out in the open and freely sanctioned by the likes of Musk. I am hearing crap on TV, repeated by Journalists, anchors and hosts, That I have never heard in my life until Trump opened the flood gates, and now we can see what has been simmering below the surface for over 200 years (yes that long).
If we had recognized that there was a fire that melted lead, we might have been able to stop it before it became hot enough to melt copper and tin. But because of political correctness and touchy feelings, the simmering fire is becoming a wild fire, a smelter that will consume us all.
I don't think there will ever be agreement on the narrative. We would have had that by now. Forget the narrative.That's a sinkhole long wallowed in as each weighs in with history and resentments and calls for justice. as they see it, as we have seen on this forum. As Einstein said, supposedly, "We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them."
At best we get enough agreement on a way forward out of this terrible situation.
No, there is a clear right and wrong here. Israel was created as an imperialist project by the Western powers. Einstein was right; continued imperialism will not solve the problem.
Complete nonsense. You remind me of Noam Chomsky. When asked whether Iran is a terrorist nation, he replies: Isreal is a terrorist nation, and so is the United States. How's that for thougtful analysis? By that reasoning, we never should have entered WW 2 in either theater!
Eff Noam Chomsky, many a progressive will defend him and adore him, because in many ways his their intellectual guru, he has infected the minds of students and professors.
There is this la ti da, dream among those infected with the Chomskyite version of Marx, all the world will be set right, if only their version of Marxism prevailed. Notice "his version" like religion there are as many versions of socialism as their are "Marxists".
Trouble with Marx and those who deify him, is that Marx saw man as an economic creature. unable to grasp the fact that economics is only a tool by which to attain power.
A good book, if you can find it, as it is out of print, is the New Class, ny Milovan Djilas, it is an incisvie look into the Ruling class of Communist Yugoslavia. Commmunism did not do away with a class structure, it just supplanted one ruling class for another.
The Tidewater Aristocracy, the planters of Virginia and the Carolinas, only joined the revolution (most were descendants of Royalists who fled Cromwell), and they had visions of being the new royalty, but that failed because the people had no intention of replacing British nobles, dukes and barons, with homegrown ones. So they resorted to surveillance (Committees of Public Safety) and propaganda (pamphlets by thinkers like Thomas Paine) and were successful, but had unintended consequences. The people now educated by the Rights of Man, were not about to stand for a new nobility, and they threatened a second revolution, thus our constitution.
Bravo! If I could put you in charge of the History Department at Harvard (or any other major university) I would! What you said about Marx is spot on. I would add to your thoughts on Chomsky the following. He is an authority on language. He knows exactly what he is doing by circumventing questions and re-directing the conversation to suit his purposes. He is a self-described anarchist, which is the poison at the heart of his intellectual errors, for no anarchist can be anything other than a fascist. Thanks for your great comments and book recommendation.
I'll take your comparison as a great compliment. Is anyone talking about Iran here? We're talking about Israel and the US. Your "logic" is anything but logical. Spare me the nonsense.
Your logic is laughable. I used Iran as an example. Shall I define 'example' for you? (I also included Israel and the US in the example, or didn't you notice?) Once again, you have proved yourself to be as big a charlatan as Chomsky is.
It doesn't matter even if there is a clear right and wrong because people, not to mention nation states, will not agree on such matters and can not be made to agree. The best you can get is people recognizing cooperation can improve outcomes for most /all. That was my point.
If you study the history you will see that Israel has no intention of cooperating. Never has had. Butterfies and unicorns will not fix this. Only a willingness to face the problem squarely, to get honest for once, can move us forward.
Jenny you are whacked out. So deep into the conspiracy that HAMAS are paid agents of Yahoo.
First they are Muslims, and I have proven that genocide of the Jews is a sacred obligation.
I'm sure that you didn't read it, I even quoted sacred Islamic text.
I will assume good faith, that in your minds eye all troubles in the world are secular politics.
They aren't. Religion is an ideology, and it is a fundamental part of one's Id, their identity, except for atheists, then again there are secular Christians, Muslims, Jews, that practice rituals, traditions, holidays because they are part of the culture in which they were reared.
So what is your answer? Undo the state of Israel? I don't think this is possible. I do think that if Israel can destroy Hamas and other similar terrorist groups and help the people in Gaza recover economically and create a reasonable government (like what the US and the Allies did in Germany and Japan after WW2) maybe real peace might occur. I do have some doubts that the present government in Israel is capable of this. My two cents...
Did I say I had a solution? But as James Baldwin said, "Not everything that is faced can be changed, but nothing can be changed until it is faced". Until we get honest about Israel as the imperialist project of the Western powers nothing can be done.
Where did you get this shit, Israel is an imperialist project by the Western powers. No wonder the universities are so screwed up.
The state of Israel started by Zionists, like Theodore Herzl, who bought up land from the Bedouins, made the desert bloom, cleaned up the garbage dump of the Arabs called Jerusalem (as Mark Twain described). The Arabs were shamed by the Jews, as that useless piece of desert lay fallow and empty except for Bedouins for thousands of years, and then in 1948, tried to take back by force what the Jews had paid for with money, they lost, but they kept coming back again and again, like morons, the insane in 1956, 1967, 1973, 2006 and Oct 7th. Driven and motivated by their religion to kill the Jews and drive them off what they consider is Arab land.
Bankers and British created Israel out of Arab lands. All Jews could have home and live in peace with the Arabs. They never asked the Arabs of course. They just did it. Isn't a success is it.
Wrong Judith. You are showing your antisemitism and gullibility.
European Jews, under the leadership of Theodore Herzl in the 1920's, bought land from Bedouins. Desert that had been useless and fallow for thousands of years. Mark Twain visited Jerusalem and found it a garbage dump
Herzl's Jews,took the land that they bought, turned into a garden, cleaned up Jerusalem, and the Arabs were both embarrassed and envious, and attacked Israel no sooner than it became a state, as consequence Israel, in self defense, took land as a buffer, as was it's right.
Einstein said that a sign of insantity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results.
So the insane Arabs came back in 1956,1967, 1973, 2006 and 2023, each time they lost, each time they also lost land. Israel occupied the Golan Heights, for self protection, it is high ground and it is from there that Syria has launched its aggressions.
The whole mess is of the Arabs own making, If they would have let the Jews have their own piece of land, their wouldn't be this problem.
But they can't because it conflicts with a sacred edict, to obliterate the Jews, haddith of al Bukhari.
It seems you have no knowledge of history prior to 1948. And your knowledge of history after 1948 ignores the fact that Israel is a secular democracy, not a fascist theocracy relying on terrorism as its sole form of foreign policy and subjugation as its core domestic policy. This is not to suggest that Israel hasn't made mistakes or that its present leader is sane or that Israel is secular enough.
Until Bibi decided to move further to the right and the Zionist Party gained more power. The Israeli people dot want that either. But Hamas did no one at favors, did they?
According to the RW in Israel and here....kill all of them. Let's not look into the facts just bomb, bomb, em off the earth. And who is doing genocide? Cut all funds, weapons and military to the area. No more killing in the Holy Land.
When did any of this land belong to Palestinians and, for that matter, when was the term "Palestinian" first coined? Where does history record a "Palestinian people"? There is none other than the Jews who were derided by the British as "bloody Palestinians". Today's Palestinians are Arabs with no distinct ethnicity.
Jews today are celebrating Chanukah which celebrates the re-dedication during the second century BC of the Second Temple in Jerusalem. Quite a history!
"The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct Palestinian people to oppose Zionism.
тАЬFor tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa, while as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan.тАЭ тАУ Interview with Zuheir Muhsin, a member of the PLO Executive Council, published in the March 31, 1977 edition of the Dutch Newspaper тАЬTrouwтАЭ.
Now, could you please present some kind of legitimate proof that there is any such thing as тАЬPalestinian soilтАЭ?
I agree with your comments but you accept those types of actions against Muslims. They are equally bad. Muslims are also being attacked, blacklisted, doxed and losing jobs.
They are.?Show me, I am from Missouri, if you mean Muslims who support Jihad and terrorism, or come up with excuses for the likes of HAMAS, then they have it coming, but outside of one deranged MAGAt who killed a kid, Show me some examples.
Muslims who support Jihad, HAMAS, Iran, Hezbollah are the enemies of a secular democracy and are a threat.
Not all of any group are haters is realistic. All Jews are not Arab, Muslim, hating. Terrorist groups exist as mercenaries and are paid today. Stop the bull crap and killing or millions of you are about to die. War and oil is a profit deal. Death for power and wealth. Got it. Not just Gaza, Palestines, etc are to die. You are all collateral damage for an agenda of the few. Stop it. You think RW Netanyahu and his generals give a crap about Israelis? They showed you on Oct 7th they didn't and you aren't safe.
We Americans were lied to and attacked on 911. Think our leaders cared? There was a stand down of our military too. RW Israel was happy to go to war in Iraq. We died and suffered for what in that 20yr war? Cost us and Iraq many billions and death.
You might not accept it but it's happening. in the wake of Hamas' Oct. 7 attack on Israel, and the Israeli military's assault on Gaza, many American Jews, Arabs and Muslims are living in fear as they face a wave of hate-fueled threats and violence.
The Justice Department is taking steps to protect тАФ and reassure тАФ those communities. Garland has directed U.S. attorneys and the FBI to work closely with state and local law enforcement to keep these communities safe, and to determine what additional support they need.
The dude has been infected with the lies and propaganda of the media he pays attention to, and is unbothered by history and facts, just like the MAGAts, he has his talking points and will stay with them. Otherwise he will have to admit that he has been a fool, and has let others do his thinking for him.
Chase asks: Are people thinking about the same thing when they use words like тАЬfascism,тАЭ тАЬliberty,тАЭ тАЬcapitalism,тАЭ тАЬsocialism,тАЭ and тАЬfreedomтАЭ? Or has our failure to agree on the meaning of these words allowed them to become weapons for politicians to further divide the nation in pursuit of their own political goals? Do these words "short-circuit thinking" and undermine communication?
The book was written in 1938 but totally applies to today.
In the history of the world, there has never been a recognized state of Palestine. Your support of a terrorist organization speaks volumes about your supposed non-antisemitism.
I think you may find that Palestine evolved from Philistia which was located
in the Gaza strip. But that is an assumption by some historians.
The Kingdoms of Israel and Judah were constantly fighting the Philistines from Philistia over millennia.
The Jews returned (drawn) to their land in 1948, and this was prophesied in the Old Testament (not the date). It was not stealing from the Palestinians; the Palestinians were squatters in Israels land.
Whoa Mike you speak out of ignorance (meaning a lack of knowledge)
Theodore Herzl, toured Europe for Jews willing to return to home base, Jerusalem, They BOUGHT land from the Bedouins. They then transformed a desert into an oasis, and cleaned up Jerusalem, which Mark Twain in the 19th Century called a garbage dump.
The Arabs looked up Israel with shame, embarrassment (they occupied the land for 2,000 years, and it lay fallow and desert all of that time, including using Jerusalem as a trash dump.
And in envy they launched a joint attack on the Jews, to drive them out and take the land that they worked so hard to make productive.
They lost and the Jews, rightfully claimed the land that their enemies launched on them, as theirs, if nothing else for protection against another attack.
Yet not having learned a lesson, like the insane which keep repeating mistakes over and again trying to find a solution, the attacked in 1956, 1967, 1973, 2006 and October 7th, and each time lost more land, which Israel needs to protect their borders.
The Arabs call 1948 the Nakba, catastrophe, but it is one that they brought on themselves.
It is the same as Gaza, Israel has a nest full of vipers next door, who are dedicated to wiping them off the face of the earth (genocide) and Israel has to defend itself, because HAMAS has bragged that they are a nation of martyrs, and will keep coming back time and again.;
When you see a funeral for a Jihadi a terrorist, and you see weeping and wailing, that is their mothers, other wise Muslims consider them martyrs and they celebrate martyrs, not moan and wail.
Look, like I said, the whole narrative is tremendously skewed. First, anti-zionism is not anti-Semitism. And the confusion feeds anti-Semitism. Until we can get the narrative straight (Israel is an imperialist nation that has stolen the Palestinians' land, backed by the "Western powers") there is no hope of straightening out the situation.
When Jewish students are attacked on campuses for being Jewish and the University administration does not come to their defense that is anti semitism and it is intolerable and that is what is happening at these elite campuses who receive massive amounts of money from Middle East donors with of course no strings attached. This is not complicated at all.
The Palestine Arts/literary Festival (not sure of the exact name) that took place on the Penn campus in September (but was not coordinated nor funded by the school) occurred in September. Many weeks prior to the Hamas attack on Israel and not at all related. It seems that Magill was vilified for even тАЬallowingтАЭ this to happen. Meanwhile, the right wingers clutch their pearls about supposed leftist attacks on free speech forgetting about their outright tolerance/support of Nazi speakers at Berkeley a few years ago. The hypocrisy is astounding. I wish these women had stood their ground and not resigned despite these arrogant, rich donor threats. That would have been a powerful statement. I am quite certain that men in their same positions wouldnтАЩt have stepped down so readily.
I obtained a masters degree from a Private University, back in 1972, and even back then there was a cadre of doltish Marxists, that were bent on making trouble.
It has only gotten worse. Berkeley is a den of snobbish, self congratulatory, immature and childish hypocrites. The champion equal rights, the rights of women for autonomy, then boycott speakers who dare call the suffocating abaya, chador, niqab and burga bee keeper suits, because they are demeaning and oppressive to woman, but that is alright with these dolts, because these are Muslim countries, and "everybody" knows that Muslims are persecuted peoples, despite the fact that they are the 2nd largest religious cult in the world and rule the Midast, the gulf, Iran, Iraq, Turkey Afghanistan, Pakistan, Malaysia, Indonesia,, North Africa and many countries in Africa
Then again we have Christians who are the majority in America crying persecution.
Then again I have to blame those who turned persecution into a world wide public relations tool, to manipulate emotions and politics.
Success breeds imitation. Now every group is persecuted and persecution that is valid, has lost its punch. Like the boy who cried wolf.
Now antisemitism being recognized as a clarion call to genocide of the Jews, it is relegated to the same category as racism, misogyny, homophobia. Instead of evoking outrage, it evokes yawns, dismissal and so what isms.
The toothpaste is out of the tube.
To be explicitly clear: those "boycotted" speakers incite hate openly; they were only not allowed to speak because the tiny hateful minority that invited them couldn't afford the security budget that university policies (which apply to all speakers/hosts) require.
No squeezing of tube -> no toothpaste.
And what about the dear professor at. The Law School who is giving voice White Nationalism and racism? Where was donor outrage? Where was Stefanik?
Attacking is different from speaking. Attacking is illegal and should be adjudicated. Speaking hate speech is not illegal and cannot be adjudicated.
But it can Barbara. The 1st Amendment does not enfranchise "free speech" nor does it bane Hate Speech. It simply places the restriction on congress and says that it shall not back laws that prohibit speech or assembly.
It does not restrict corporations, media, the internet, people, students, the university.
However corporations, universities, states, counties and municipalities can, without violating the 1st Amendment.
But even the Federal Government, congress and thus with a vested interest, promote the myth of free speech, Including Whitehouse.gov.
Point is that a university and a student union can, and do, censor speech all of the time. Call an abaya or chador or niqab or burqa, an assault on women, and find out how fast the university and the student union circumscribe your right to "free speech"
Thank you. Good to know
If I knew how to block you I would. You refuse even to think about the background and repeat (racist) nonsense.
Mike, Respectfully, the answer is not to block. Nothing will change if we donтАЩt try and engage. Since October7th, IтАЩve followed my own advice on several Substacks, and, though the exchanges have been challenging and time-consuming, IтАЩve relished those moments when civility replaced adversity.
I wish I could give you a thousand likes!
Tim, Thank you for writing. Your reply is most appreciated.
yes, I agree with Tim.
You are right on, Barbara Jo: "though the exchanges have been challenging and time-consuming, IтАЩve relished those moments when civility replaced adversity."
The problem, though, is that while some Trump-supporters can engage in civil discourse, they can't break out of their MAGA trance. Only a massive voter turnout can dislodge the Republican party, but I fear the Trump-trance will continue until the Orange-One leaves this mortal coil.
Abraham, First, I would note I agree that тАЬmassive voter turnoutтАЭ is critical if we expect to win elections up and down the ballot. Second, I would clarify, as displayed in forums such as this, that, despite agreement on a host of issues, Democrats remain alarmingly polarized on matters pertaining to Israel-Palestine. Accordingly, the dialogue I deem most critical is the one among ourselves.
Yes, the fractures in the Democratic coalition are seriously worrying and likely to draw down turnout, or even flip some blues to red.
Hopefully the Israel-Palestine divide will smooth over by next Nov.
But Dems need a UNIFYING issue or message, and right now I think that could be abortion. The Texas case has people up in arms all over the country, but can that outrage be sustained til Nov.
Many elections are decided by single issue voters so if abortion is the issue, and if a similarly dramatic case arises in the Fall, then that might overshadow other issues and be the catalyst for a Blue Wave.
Repubs won the Presidency (and the Supreme Court) with massive Evangelical "pro-life" support; so this time Dems could do the same thing in reverse. It's all very cynical, but that's the reality of modern American politics.
Also, strange as it seems, mega-superstar Taylor Swift is very pro-choice and now actively encouraging his mass of followers (especially young women coming into voting age) to register and vote out Republicans across the board. Her effectiveness is shown by the juvenile, obscene and even violent attacks on her by podcasters like Charlie Kirk and his followers. Taylor now has the power, and young white males are scared to death of her.
https://www.meidastouch.com/news/charlie-kirk-podcast-launches-22-unhinged-vile-attacks-against-taylor-swift
Marshall McLuhan, a Canadian media guru from the 1960s, predicted that celebrities would dominate politics in the future. Well we're in the future and celebrities like Ronald Reagan, Arnold Schwarzenegger, and of course TV Trump all did it, so why not celebrity Taylor. And she doesn't even have to run for office; she has a mass audience and she just has to get them registered and to the polls. Maybe she'll do "voting concerts" where her followers can register at the concert and maybe get "I'm Voting With Taylor" bracelets.
Whatever it takes, Trumpism & MAGA must be defeated in Nov. 2024
In the Democrat Party, the divisions are between human rights and anti-semitism. We in this party get caught up in semantics which is neither good nor bad, just problematic. ItтАЩs true that Israel is another Imperialist nation who conquered the Arabs and stole land and property in 1943. As it has moved further to the right, NetanyahuтАЩs ruling body has become more and more dictatorial. Did Bibi know of the potential attack and not take it seriously as a reason to bomb Gaza into oblivion? Who knows? But over the generations and especially now with college and HS age students, they see the years of David v. Goliath savagery waged against the Palestinian people. They see the deaths of 10 Israelis followed by the deaths of 100 Palestinians. They read about the razing of тАШillegalтАЩ villages, only to e replaced by Jewish kibbutzes. They read about the lack of water to Gaza and the Palestinian people and ask, why are Israeli citizens so inhumane? This generation has read and studied about the Holocaust. This generation of liberal young people hate antisemitism and White Nationalism. They tend to despise anything that dehumanizes other people. But they also understand that a people that have such a history of being killed, tortured, and displaced should not be so willing to decimate another people as the Israeli government and their Western allies are doing in what they feel are open air prisons in Gaza and the West Bank. If the divisions within the Democratic Party addressed and corrected, we will have to come to some agreement on how to define what is going on in Gaza, and how the US, as an ally, can be both an ally to Israel and a true advocate of peace, Palestinian humanity, and a two state Gaza.
Seems our leaders aren't listening to us. No billions for RW Netanyahu. Israelis in the streets don't trust him to do war and keep them safe. He is a con. I don't ether want to pay for Gaza genocide or Hamas mercenaries hired by Netanyahu. Makes the whole thing a lie with our tax dollars used to kill many for a RW agenda for more land and power.
you've stated the problems well, Danny.
I'm really not sure what the younger generations know or think; they seem to be living in another world from me (I'm 77).
But anti-status-quo, anti-war, etc. usually starts with the young; and this time they are playing out that role with their current anti-Israel protests.
But they are probably as fractured as the rest of the country, and I wasn't really joking about a mega-celebrity like Taylor Swift motivating a huge contingent of new voters to register and vote.
If that helps to end MAGA and Trumpism, then America can start to find some common core of values and address the many problems facing us all.
So many problems, and so much polarization, but Job Number One is to end Trumpism. The Dems are far from perfect, but Trump will lead the country into authoritarianism (just to keep himself out of jail) and that must be stopped.
I figured out how to block you.
Block me too please
Sure
I am done with you, no need to block.
Please tell us how to block, so we can block you.
Only an insecure fool bloc ks someone. You can stick your fingers in your ear, but that doesn't shut them up. I want to hear what others are saying, that way I can counter them.
We blocked hate speech for years, but then comes along the Champion of Hate Speech, DJT, and now all of that hate speech that has been welling up in the breasts of the deplorables, is now out in the open and freely sanctioned by the likes of Musk. I am hearing crap on TV, repeated by Journalists, anchors and hosts, That I have never heard in my life until Trump opened the flood gates, and now we can see what has been simmering below the surface for over 200 years (yes that long).
If we had recognized that there was a fire that melted lead, we might have been able to stop it before it became hot enough to melt copper and tin. But because of political correctness and touchy feelings, the simmering fire is becoming a wild fire, a smelter that will consume us all.
I don't think there will ever be agreement on the narrative. We would have had that by now. Forget the narrative.That's a sinkhole long wallowed in as each weighs in with history and resentments and calls for justice. as they see it, as we have seen on this forum. As Einstein said, supposedly, "We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them."
At best we get enough agreement on a way forward out of this terrible situation.
I believe it will not be resolved by power alone.
No, there is a clear right and wrong here. Israel was created as an imperialist project by the Western powers. Einstein was right; continued imperialism will not solve the problem.
Einstein was right when he packed up his family in 1932 and got the hell out of Europe.
Problem today is: where do you go?
Complete nonsense. You remind me of Noam Chomsky. When asked whether Iran is a terrorist nation, he replies: Isreal is a terrorist nation, and so is the United States. How's that for thougtful analysis? By that reasoning, we never should have entered WW 2 in either theater!
Eff Noam Chomsky, many a progressive will defend him and adore him, because in many ways his their intellectual guru, he has infected the minds of students and professors.
There is this la ti da, dream among those infected with the Chomskyite version of Marx, all the world will be set right, if only their version of Marxism prevailed. Notice "his version" like religion there are as many versions of socialism as their are "Marxists".
Trouble with Marx and those who deify him, is that Marx saw man as an economic creature. unable to grasp the fact that economics is only a tool by which to attain power.
A good book, if you can find it, as it is out of print, is the New Class, ny Milovan Djilas, it is an incisvie look into the Ruling class of Communist Yugoslavia. Commmunism did not do away with a class structure, it just supplanted one ruling class for another.
The Tidewater Aristocracy, the planters of Virginia and the Carolinas, only joined the revolution (most were descendants of Royalists who fled Cromwell), and they had visions of being the new royalty, but that failed because the people had no intention of replacing British nobles, dukes and barons, with homegrown ones. So they resorted to surveillance (Committees of Public Safety) and propaganda (pamphlets by thinkers like Thomas Paine) and were successful, but had unintended consequences. The people now educated by the Rights of Man, were not about to stand for a new nobility, and they threatened a second revolution, thus our constitution.
Bravo! If I could put you in charge of the History Department at Harvard (or any other major university) I would! What you said about Marx is spot on. I would add to your thoughts on Chomsky the following. He is an authority on language. He knows exactly what he is doing by circumventing questions and re-directing the conversation to suit his purposes. He is a self-described anarchist, which is the poison at the heart of his intellectual errors, for no anarchist can be anything other than a fascist. Thanks for your great comments and book recommendation.
I'll take your comparison as a great compliment. Is anyone talking about Iran here? We're talking about Israel and the US. Your "logic" is anything but logical. Spare me the nonsense.
Your logic is laughable. I used Iran as an example. Shall I define 'example' for you? (I also included Israel and the US in the example, or didn't you notice?) Once again, you have proved yourself to be as big a charlatan as Chomsky is.
It doesn't matter even if there is a clear right and wrong because people, not to mention nation states, will not agree on such matters and can not be made to agree. The best you can get is people recognizing cooperation can improve outcomes for most /all. That was my point.
If you study the history you will see that Israel has no intention of cooperating. Never has had. Butterfies and unicorns will not fix this. Only a willingness to face the problem squarely, to get honest for once, can move us forward.
So your solution Mike is for the Jews to commit suicide, because that is the only way the Arabs can be satisfied, either that or the genocide of Jews.
It is in their sacred books, and the HAMAS Covenant.
BS propaganda. Who is Hamas but mercenaries paid to fight. No plan but Netanyahu's.
Jenny you are whacked out. So deep into the conspiracy that HAMAS are paid agents of Yahoo.
First they are Muslims, and I have proven that genocide of the Jews is a sacred obligation.
I'm sure that you didn't read it, I even quoted sacred Islamic text.
I will assume good faith, that in your minds eye all troubles in the world are secular politics.
They aren't. Religion is an ideology, and it is a fundamental part of one's Id, their identity, except for atheists, then again there are secular Christians, Muslims, Jews, that practice rituals, traditions, holidays because they are part of the culture in which they were reared.
So what is your answer? Undo the state of Israel? I don't think this is possible. I do think that if Israel can destroy Hamas and other similar terrorist groups and help the people in Gaza recover economically and create a reasonable government (like what the US and the Allies did in Germany and Japan after WW2) maybe real peace might occur. I do have some doubts that the present government in Israel is capable of this. My two cents...
Did I say I had a solution? But as James Baldwin said, "Not everything that is faced can be changed, but nothing can be changed until it is faced". Until we get honest about Israel as the imperialist project of the Western powers nothing can be done.
Where did you get this shit, Israel is an imperialist project by the Western powers. No wonder the universities are so screwed up.
The state of Israel started by Zionists, like Theodore Herzl, who bought up land from the Bedouins, made the desert bloom, cleaned up the garbage dump of the Arabs called Jerusalem (as Mark Twain described). The Arabs were shamed by the Jews, as that useless piece of desert lay fallow and empty except for Bedouins for thousands of years, and then in 1948, tried to take back by force what the Jews had paid for with money, they lost, but they kept coming back again and again, like morons, the insane in 1956, 1967, 1973, 2006 and Oct 7th. Driven and motivated by their religion to kill the Jews and drive them off what they consider is Arab land.
Who said the universities did this analysis?
Bankers and British created Israel out of Arab lands. All Jews could have home and live in peace with the Arabs. They never asked the Arabs of course. They just did it. Isn't a success is it.
Wrong Judith. You are showing your antisemitism and gullibility.
European Jews, under the leadership of Theodore Herzl in the 1920's, bought land from Bedouins. Desert that had been useless and fallow for thousands of years. Mark Twain visited Jerusalem and found it a garbage dump
Herzl's Jews,took the land that they bought, turned into a garden, cleaned up Jerusalem, and the Arabs were both embarrassed and envious, and attacked Israel no sooner than it became a state, as consequence Israel, in self defense, took land as a buffer, as was it's right.
Einstein said that a sign of insantity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results.
So the insane Arabs came back in 1956,1967, 1973, 2006 and 2023, each time they lost, each time they also lost land. Israel occupied the Golan Heights, for self protection, it is high ground and it is from there that Syria has launched its aggressions.
The whole mess is of the Arabs own making, If they would have let the Jews have their own piece of land, their wouldn't be this problem.
But they can't because it conflicts with a sacred edict, to obliterate the Jews, haddith of al Bukhari.
It seems you have no knowledge of history prior to 1948. And your knowledge of history after 1948 ignores the fact that Israel is a secular democracy, not a fascist theocracy relying on terrorism as its sole form of foreign policy and subjugation as its core domestic policy. This is not to suggest that Israel hasn't made mistakes or that its present leader is sane or that Israel is secular enough.
Bravo James, what I have been saying, but with history.
See my response above yours
Until Bibi decided to move further to the right and the Zionist Party gained more power. The Israeli people dot want that either. But Hamas did no one at favors, did they?
But how any Palestinians will have to die first?
According to the RW in Israel and here....kill all of them. Let's not look into the facts just bomb, bomb, em off the earth. And who is doing genocide? Cut all funds, weapons and military to the area. No more killing in the Holy Land.
When did any of this land belong to Palestinians and, for that matter, when was the term "Palestinian" first coined? Where does history record a "Palestinian people"? There is none other than the Jews who were derided by the British as "bloody Palestinians". Today's Palestinians are Arabs with no distinct ethnicity.
Jews today are celebrating Chanukah which celebrates the re-dedication during the second century BC of the Second Temple in Jerusalem. Quite a history!
"The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct Palestinian people to oppose Zionism.
тАЬFor tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa, while as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan.тАЭ тАУ Interview with Zuheir Muhsin, a member of the PLO Executive Council, published in the March 31, 1977 edition of the Dutch Newspaper тАЬTrouwтАЭ.
Now, could you please present some kind of legitimate proof that there is any such thing as тАЬPalestinian soilтАЭ?
I agree with your argument that there may not be "Palestinian soil" but we are still left with the reality that there are Palestinian people.
So where will they live?
I'm an optimist (barely, these days) and hopefully see an international "rebuilding" of Gaza into a modern democratic state.
Mike--- you are off and wrong--- they are spitting on kids who have Jewish stars or yamulkes... that's not only about Israel, that's anti-Jew.
AFAIAC, fuck the anti-semites!
You also have a skewed idea about Israel, but no matter...
I agree with your comments but you accept those types of actions against Muslims. They are equally bad. Muslims are also being attacked, blacklisted, doxed and losing jobs.
They are.?Show me, I am from Missouri, if you mean Muslims who support Jihad and terrorism, or come up with excuses for the likes of HAMAS, then they have it coming, but outside of one deranged MAGAt who killed a kid, Show me some examples.
Muslims who support Jihad, HAMAS, Iran, Hezbollah are the enemies of a secular democracy and are a threat.
Not all of any group are haters is realistic. All Jews are not Arab, Muslim, hating. Terrorist groups exist as mercenaries and are paid today. Stop the bull crap and killing or millions of you are about to die. War and oil is a profit deal. Death for power and wealth. Got it. Not just Gaza, Palestines, etc are to die. You are all collateral damage for an agenda of the few. Stop it. You think RW Netanyahu and his generals give a crap about Israelis? They showed you on Oct 7th they didn't and you aren't safe.
We Americans were lied to and attacked on 911. Think our leaders cared? There was a stand down of our military too. RW Israel was happy to go to war in Iraq. We died and suffered for what in that 20yr war? Cost us and Iraq many billions and death.
I DO NOT ACCEPT so where do you get that from??? I run sports teams in NY NY with all nationalities, incl Pals and Muslims!!!
You might not accept it but it's happening. in the wake of Hamas' Oct. 7 attack on Israel, and the Israeli military's assault on Gaza, many American Jews, Arabs and Muslims are living in fear as they face a wave of hate-fueled threats and violence.
The Justice Department is taking steps to protect тАФ and reassure тАФ those communities. Garland has directed U.S. attorneys and the FBI to work closely with state and local law enforcement to keep these communities safe, and to determine what additional support they need.
That's from the Justice department.
Women, POC and LGBT are also living in fear, not because of HAMAS but because of fellow citizens.And our government is not doing jack shit and won't.
An upvote for me Neal. Well said.
So based on youтАЩre requirements, the US is an imperialist nation backed by NATO.
But how does one describe Saudi Arabia or Syria or Iran. Which one is not imperialist. How about Egypt. India was once not long ago.
Careful who you call imperialist. Very slippery slope.
The dude has been infected with the lies and propaganda of the media he pays attention to, and is unbothered by history and facts, just like the MAGAts, he has his talking points and will stay with them. Otherwise he will have to admit that he has been a fool, and has let others do his thinking for him.
Oh how these words get thrown around; "imperialist" "fascist" "freedom"
Here's a helpful book about the abuse of language:
https://neofascism.substack.com/p/the-tyranny-of-words-by-stuart-chase
Chase asks: Are people thinking about the same thing when they use words like тАЬfascism,тАЭ тАЬliberty,тАЭ тАЬcapitalism,тАЭ тАЬsocialism,тАЭ and тАЬfreedomтАЭ? Or has our failure to agree on the meaning of these words allowed them to become weapons for politicians to further divide the nation in pursuit of their own political goals? Do these words "short-circuit thinking" and undermine communication?
The book was written in 1938 but totally applies to today.
In the history of the world, there has never been a recognized state of Palestine. Your support of a terrorist organization speaks volumes about your supposed non-antisemitism.
You're not only a liar, you're a supporter of genocide. Block
Israel wouldn't allow it. Hamas is a mercenary group. Enemy of Palestine and Israel. Kill each other for power of a few RW.
I think you may find that Palestine evolved from Philistia which was located
in the Gaza strip. But that is an assumption by some historians.
The Kingdoms of Israel and Judah were constantly fighting the Philistines from Philistia over millennia.
The Jews returned (drawn) to their land in 1948, and this was prophesied in the Old Testament (not the date). It was not stealing from the Palestinians; the Palestinians were squatters in Israels land.
There was no kingdom of Israel. It was created in 1948.
Whoa Mike you speak out of ignorance (meaning a lack of knowledge)
Theodore Herzl, toured Europe for Jews willing to return to home base, Jerusalem, They BOUGHT land from the Bedouins. They then transformed a desert into an oasis, and cleaned up Jerusalem, which Mark Twain in the 19th Century called a garbage dump.
The Arabs looked up Israel with shame, embarrassment (they occupied the land for 2,000 years, and it lay fallow and desert all of that time, including using Jerusalem as a trash dump.
And in envy they launched a joint attack on the Jews, to drive them out and take the land that they worked so hard to make productive.
They lost and the Jews, rightfully claimed the land that their enemies launched on them, as theirs, if nothing else for protection against another attack.
Yet not having learned a lesson, like the insane which keep repeating mistakes over and again trying to find a solution, the attacked in 1956, 1967, 1973, 2006 and October 7th, and each time lost more land, which Israel needs to protect their borders.
The Arabs call 1948 the Nakba, catastrophe, but it is one that they brought on themselves.
It is the same as Gaza, Israel has a nest full of vipers next door, who are dedicated to wiping them off the face of the earth (genocide) and Israel has to defend itself, because HAMAS has bragged that they are a nation of martyrs, and will keep coming back time and again.;
When you see a funeral for a Jihadi a terrorist, and you see weeping and wailing, that is their mothers, other wise Muslims consider them martyrs and they celebrate martyrs, not moan and wail.