The debt ceiling should be non-negotiable. The debt ceiling is non-negotiable. According to my understanding of the US Constitution, 14th Amendment, Section 4, The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred . . . shall not be questioned."
Chairman Powell was very clear and stern that it was non-negotiable in a radio clip I heard today on NPR. What on earth is Biden thinking? And why haven't his advisors set him straight? This is the last straw for me. I do NOT support him for the presidency in 2024 and will campaign and canvass for whatever Democrat is boild enough, and worried enough, to run against him (and the whole DNC).
Biden has been clear on this...NO negotiating on the debt limit. He saw this playbook with Obama. I don't fully agree with Prof. Reich. Let's give Biden credit for response so far. He knows he must "play the media". But he's been clear from the beginning. He couldn't refuse to see McCarthy, as that would be reported as "stonewalling".
Why give Biden credit? How clear has he been if he is talking about "the first steps in negotiation" with McCarthy on this today? That's what I'd call NOT clear on this.
Again, if you were President and the Speaker of the House asked to meet with you, how would the press play it if you refused? All this blowback on Biden for something he hasn't done is unfair and just silly panic. Give the WH time to play this out. This is part of the posturing and Biden has said NOTHING to indicate he is giving an INCH on anything important.
David Parrish ; This 'Speaker of the House' is illegitimate. His needed vote from Santos is fraudulent, like Santos. Congress is run by Seditionists, who do not have legitimacy or the interests of the Common Good at all.
To quote Bob Reich, who I suspect knows as much as you do about negotiations at the White House, and who is not a hysteric posturer like me:
'"Politico reported that 'Biden officials in the run-up to the meeting privately discussed the potential for a compromise that heads off a debt ceiling crisis while separately granting McCarthy small concessions that would allow him to save face with his party.'
Compromise? Concessions? We’re already at the negotiating table, folks."
Again, I've heard no public comment (only public comments from the media are McCarthy's). I've heard multiple public comments from Biden leading up to the meeting saying "no negotiating of the debt ceiling". What Biden DID say prior to meeting was "Show me your budget, I'll show you mine". He's telling McCarthy to "put up or shut up". He's differentiating between being open to specific cuts on FUTURE spending and NOT negotiating on debt ceiling. The problem is how the media reports this as they want a "fight". But IMO, contrary to what almost EVERYONE ELSE here is saying, the ONLY way Biden can game the press AND public opinion is to BOTH make clear (which he has)1. NO negotiating on debt ceiling, and 2. He's open to cutting government waste if you show him specifics which are in line with what is good for the American People.
Yes, Janet. It is a false association between the debt we already are responsible for and any future debt we might incur. Our media which has people's attention has not done a very good job of explaining that to the American people and the media willing to explain reaches few of McCarthy's fans and he knows it. He can lie about this meeting today and it won't matter what Biden says or does because McCarthy will have gotten there first, knowing just which "reporters" he can spew his garbage to. Biden can make some inroads by talking about the debt ceiling and explaining what he and McCarthy discussed on Wednesday at the State of the Union, but he should get a jump on it today.
David, the truth seems to be that doubting Biden is our way of life and Republicans are delighted. They want him to be seen as incompetent and willing to give up on doing what is right for this nation. Republicans would have made a lot of hay (as they say) had Biden refused to see McCarthy today. Then, our cherished media would have been on his case perpetually for it. Trump, in Republican eyes could distort, lie, cheat, ignore and more while he was in office, but Biden is held to a different standard completely and knows he has to deal with the troubled waters that Republicans and our media have created for him. So far, he hasn't done it perfectly, but has done pretty well.
Pay the bills, let the traitors sue. But the other gamble is Biden weighing the damage vs the political profit and gravity going forward if the greedy old perverts tank the markets . . . again . . . b.rad
brad schrick ' I wonder how much the greedy old perverts make (a lot of money), when they tank the markets? The obscenely wealthy did make the loans to 'our' government, didn't they?
Joseph, what a great question! I think we ignore the 14th Amendment because it lays out the rights of all citizens and our national obligations. Republicans don't want anyone to realize they are ignoring those rights in nearly everything they do and say. What's going on? Our Supreme Court isn't too fond of the 14th either. I am also wondering about this latest talk about a 30% sales tax on everything in lieu of income tax. Income tax is in our 16th Amendment, but it seems Republicans don't care about that amendment either, like the 13th, 19th, and 26th, the voting amendments. So, Republicans like to pick and choose which parts of the Constitution they will go along with and ignore the rest. The Supreme conservatives are on board with that too. How do we stop that insanity?
I say the same thing. The fact there is a debt ceiling at all means it will be subject to negotiations. In today’s political climate everything is, or will become negotiable.
We just can't get anything honest from corporate media. Here we sit in our own little echo chamber preaching to each other, while the ruling class smirks and continues on their very carefully crafted greedy way. I fear we have to hit bottom ( I thought we had with drumpf) before leftist values like the common good, equality, diversity, freedom, fairness, and democracy can blossom. oh well.
Which D has been bad at making the point? Have you heard any? I've only heard the right responses. Every D I've heard has explained the simplicity of paying one's bills and most have mentioned the huge deficit created by Trump tax cuts.
"The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively debate within that spectrum—even encourage the more critical and dissident views. That gives people the sense that there's free thinking going on, while all the time the presuppositions of the system are being reinforced by the limits put on the range of the debate." — Noam Chomsky
Framing? What's to frame? McCarthy and the House Reps are blathering about a non issue. The money's spent. Live with it. Got a credit card? It's not a difficult concept. As for the Washington Post, that rag is about as bad as Fox at whipping this crap up into something good for a few trillion words of copy. They should be ashamed.
Pretty much, Mary. These blogs, these little motes of light in a sea of idiocy like RR's letter, Heather Cox Richardson's daily post, Thom Hartman and a precious few others are our only hope .... how to wean the masses off of corporate media? It's really tough.
No, the Washington Post isn't as bad garbage as the NYT. I read them both every day for the 4 years of Voldemort's presidency. I don't start there--I start with the Guardian (not a big fan of HCR) and yes, I read other independent news sites too. But WaPo has been significantly less corrupt and right-leaning--and for a long time--than our national Pravda. So I'm sorry and angry about this. There's no way to wean "the masses" (the American people) off the most prevalent, most convenient news sources--most people don't have enough time to hunt their news down or read several sources! What has to happen is that US journalism gets better and braver than it has been in recent years. That is possible!
I think you give "most people" a bit too much credit, Mary. I don't think that "most People" simply don't have enough time or energy to pay attention. I believe that "most people" simply don't care.
The Democrats have a hard time framing all items of debate and controlling their message on most everything. You'd think by now they'd figure out how to. I dislike Republican policy but man they know how to pitch the right words and control the verbiage.
For example - Pro Life. As if everyone isn't pro-life? Republicans are really Pro-Birth because they don't support things that make "life" after birth better - don't support public education, don't want have affordable health care for everyone, don't support living wages, unconcerned with the long term life of anything on the planet (climate change), etc.
This is still just the preseason and Biden's GOAT(?) team has proven its ability to close when it counts, peaking just when needed before the debt ceiling super bowl in mid-May. Whether this right wing charade is right or wrong is another question; but Biden is simply stating the obvious of having parallel track negotiations. I would love to see Biden simply issue an executive order that kills the debt ceiling and simply ignore it. Some leading academics believe there's a compelling case to be made to do just that.
Where’s the reporting of the enormous $7.8 trillion debt racked up by Trump and his Republican Congress? Or the willingness of Republicans to raise the debt ceiling three times under Trump? Or the fact that Republican-sponsored tax cuts on big corporations and the rich substantially worsened the debt?
All Democrats should expose this scam for what it is at every opportunity in the media every chance they get, shove it down their throats. Democrats need to start fighting like Republicans do but with the truth on their side instead of the lies on the Republican side. I live in West Virginia, a very red state, and I get on my local NextDoor and challenge all the right-wing liars on there with the truth and prove it with legitimate fact-checking links. I may not change any minds but I will not let them continue to spread misinformation and lies without being challenged.
There's not necessarily anything wrong with meeting with those involved with running our country even if his name is McCarthy. There are some areas where a compromise might be reached that might give McCarthy something to take to his devils in Congress. Just don't even think about Social Security or Medicare. Don't even whisper those words or me and my wheelchair army will hit the streets and slaughter whomever does so with our old medicine bottles. I'm sure some areas are a bit bloated especially those areas that the Repubs love. We'll find out just how serious the Repubs are about cutting the budget. I'm thinking in terms of the military budget. I'm thinking in terms of the police, and even the FBI and CIA. I'm thinking in terms of Homeland Security and Border Patrol. I'm sure some of you can think of a few more Repub favorite areas. Call their bluff. They will fold like trump in front of a grand jury.
Ok, this is bad. This is really very bad. I just purchased my monthly groceries at Walmart. I get the same thing every month and have the groceries delivered because I don't drive anymore. The cost was $425. It includes cat food for my indoor cats and several outdoor, community cats that I feed. The previous cost for my groceries have never been over $345, and usually the cost has been $330, and pre Covid less than $300. I'm living off Social Security and not a lot of that. The paltry 8.7% raise has done little to help. Anyway, the point of this is to sound a WARNING TO ALL. THIS IS NOT SUSTAINABLE! If the Biden government doesn't step in and at least recognize this problem immediately, the economy is in for a disastrous CRASH within the next two years. IT MAY BE TOO LATE NOW! I don't see anyone even talking about this. PEOPLE HAVE THEIR HEADS IN THE SAND, including the MEDIA, THE ADMINISTRATION AND CONGRESS. Am I overreacting? I don't think so. I don't mean to frighten anyone, but the problem is looming on the horizon. Have a wonderful weekend.
I’m astounded by how many people in high and/or advisory positions fail to articulate a critical, basic point: WE HAGE A DEBT-BASED CURRENCY SYSTEM!!
Reducing federal debt means reducing the supply of circulating money! With all of the current needs of the country, how the hell would that a good thing? The level of debt correlates 1:1 with the level of economic activity. Do we want to see less economic activity in this country? There's a name for that: "recession".
The key issue is not the sheer level of national debt but whether the money is being used productively or squandered upon efforts that add no real value to the country. (Hint: further enriching those who already have dozens or hundreds of times more wealth than they could practically use probably falls in the latter category.)
This is why I don’t donate to the Democratic Party. Just to certain democrats The party line is to cave Too many corporate interests involved in the official party policies
The debt ceiling should be non-negotiable. The debt ceiling is non-negotiable. According to my understanding of the US Constitution, 14th Amendment, Section 4, The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred . . . shall not be questioned."
Copied from: https://secondnexus.com/deadbeat-limit-understanding-debt-ceiling
and https://leisureguy.wordpress.com/2023/01/17/deadbeat-limit/
The Deadbeat Limit—Understanding The Debt Ceiling
Why do we keep ignoring the 14th Amendment?
Thank you for your consideration.
Chairman Powell was very clear and stern that it was non-negotiable in a radio clip I heard today on NPR. What on earth is Biden thinking? And why haven't his advisors set him straight? This is the last straw for me. I do NOT support him for the presidency in 2024 and will campaign and canvass for whatever Democrat is boild enough, and worried enough, to run against him (and the whole DNC).
Biden has been clear on this...NO negotiating on the debt limit. He saw this playbook with Obama. I don't fully agree with Prof. Reich. Let's give Biden credit for response so far. He knows he must "play the media". But he's been clear from the beginning. He couldn't refuse to see McCarthy, as that would be reported as "stonewalling".
Why give Biden credit? How clear has he been if he is talking about "the first steps in negotiation" with McCarthy on this today? That's what I'd call NOT clear on this.
Again, if you were President and the Speaker of the House asked to meet with you, how would the press play it if you refused? All this blowback on Biden for something he hasn't done is unfair and just silly panic. Give the WH time to play this out. This is part of the posturing and Biden has said NOTHING to indicate he is giving an INCH on anything important.
David Parrish ; This 'Speaker of the House' is illegitimate. His needed vote from Santos is fraudulent, like Santos. Congress is run by Seditionists, who do not have legitimacy or the interests of the Common Good at all.
ICYMI: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXoJd4BoZTQ
To quote Bob Reich, who I suspect knows as much as you do about negotiations at the White House, and who is not a hysteric posturer like me:
'"Politico reported that 'Biden officials in the run-up to the meeting privately discussed the potential for a compromise that heads off a debt ceiling crisis while separately granting McCarthy small concessions that would allow him to save face with his party.'
Compromise? Concessions? We’re already at the negotiating table, folks."
We're not at the table. We're on the menu.
Here is the link to the Politico story. I see nothing reported here which contradicts what the President has bee saying all along:
https://www.politico.com/news/2023/02/01/biden-mccarthy-meet-white-house-debt-ceiling-00080653
Well I certainly hope that isn't true. What I can say is that, so far, Biden's public statements have been "on the mark".
Again, I've heard no public comment (only public comments from the media are McCarthy's). I've heard multiple public comments from Biden leading up to the meeting saying "no negotiating of the debt ceiling". What Biden DID say prior to meeting was "Show me your budget, I'll show you mine". He's telling McCarthy to "put up or shut up". He's differentiating between being open to specific cuts on FUTURE spending and NOT negotiating on debt ceiling. The problem is how the media reports this as they want a "fight". But IMO, contrary to what almost EVERYONE ELSE here is saying, the ONLY way Biden can game the press AND public opinion is to BOTH make clear (which he has)1. NO negotiating on debt ceiling, and 2. He's open to cutting government waste if you show him specifics which are in line with what is good for the American People.
Yes, Janet. It is a false association between the debt we already are responsible for and any future debt we might incur. Our media which has people's attention has not done a very good job of explaining that to the American people and the media willing to explain reaches few of McCarthy's fans and he knows it. He can lie about this meeting today and it won't matter what Biden says or does because McCarthy will have gotten there first, knowing just which "reporters" he can spew his garbage to. Biden can make some inroads by talking about the debt ceiling and explaining what he and McCarthy discussed on Wednesday at the State of the Union, but he should get a jump on it today.
I found this to be an excellent explanation of the debt limit.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=Rz6E72MkzOw&feature=shares
But Janet, that is PRECISELY what the President has been doing.
I've heard no public comment
on the meeting from Biden. Have you? Have you been listening to Biden's multiple (for days) speeches on "not negotiating"?
Yes.
David, the truth seems to be that doubting Biden is our way of life and Republicans are delighted. They want him to be seen as incompetent and willing to give up on doing what is right for this nation. Republicans would have made a lot of hay (as they say) had Biden refused to see McCarthy today. Then, our cherished media would have been on his case perpetually for it. Trump, in Republican eyes could distort, lie, cheat, ignore and more while he was in office, but Biden is held to a different standard completely and knows he has to deal with the troubled waters that Republicans and our media have created for him. So far, he hasn't done it perfectly, but has done pretty well.
Powell is a corporate pawn. I don't trust him as far as I can throw him.
Pay the bills, let the traitors sue. But the other gamble is Biden weighing the damage vs the political profit and gravity going forward if the greedy old perverts tank the markets . . . again . . . b.rad
brad schrick ' I wonder how much the greedy old perverts make (a lot of money), when they tank the markets? The obscenely wealthy did make the loans to 'our' government, didn't they?
Joseph, what a great question! I think we ignore the 14th Amendment because it lays out the rights of all citizens and our national obligations. Republicans don't want anyone to realize they are ignoring those rights in nearly everything they do and say. What's going on? Our Supreme Court isn't too fond of the 14th either. I am also wondering about this latest talk about a 30% sales tax on everything in lieu of income tax. Income tax is in our 16th Amendment, but it seems Republicans don't care about that amendment either, like the 13th, 19th, and 26th, the voting amendments. So, Republicans like to pick and choose which parts of the Constitution they will go along with and ignore the rest. The Supreme conservatives are on board with that too. How do we stop that insanity?
For the same reason they ignore the first half of the 2nd Amendment. Convenience.
Right on, Joseph. The US Constitution IS the Law of the Land. Invoke it.
Yep, could not agree more. The media is a bunch of equivalency idiots.
Cynthia Bethea ; and greedheads making a lot of money working for the super wealthy! Idiotic like a FoX
But but . .What Aboutism Rules . . at least Ishly
There should not BE a debit ceiling.
I say the same thing. The fact there is a debt ceiling at all means it will be subject to negotiations. In today’s political climate everything is, or will become negotiable.
It hasn't meant there were negotiations for most of its existence. And certainly not during the Trump presidency!
We just can't get anything honest from corporate media. Here we sit in our own little echo chamber preaching to each other, while the ruling class smirks and continues on their very carefully crafted greedy way. I fear we have to hit bottom ( I thought we had with drumpf) before leftist values like the common good, equality, diversity, freedom, fairness, and democracy can blossom. oh well.
It's so discouraging that the Dems are so bad at making their point or maybe they have no clue how to talk to the public.
SOME democrats can, but Katie Porter, Bernie Sanders and even Elizabeth Warren are neglected for being too >GASP!!!< SOCIALIST!
Katie Porter was on MSNBC tonight ; I think on Ari Melber, telling it like it is ; no holds barred and right on the money.
Most D's can. But media is only interested in creating "a good story", and corporate interests are for less government=less taxes.
To paraphrase Patrick Henry, "If this be socialism, make the most of it."
Well the Washington Post is doing nothing to inform them, is it?
That isn't the fault of Biden. Have you heard him speaking in this? He's been speaking for DAYS in advance of this meeting.
Which D has been bad at making the point? Have you heard any? I've only heard the right responses. Every D I've heard has explained the simplicity of paying one's bills and most have mentioned the huge deficit created by Trump tax cuts.
"The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively debate within that spectrum—even encourage the more critical and dissident views. That gives people the sense that there's free thinking going on, while all the time the presuppositions of the system are being reinforced by the limits put on the range of the debate." — Noam Chomsky
It is We the People who are being "Framed".
Or, at least, gamed!
Framing? What's to frame? McCarthy and the House Reps are blathering about a non issue. The money's spent. Live with it. Got a credit card? It's not a difficult concept. As for the Washington Post, that rag is about as bad as Fox at whipping this crap up into something good for a few trillion words of copy. They should be ashamed.
Yeah, The Washington Post is garbage! The billionaire that owns it cannot care less about "news." His name escapes me . . .
Not as much garbage as the New York Times. Or CNN, NBC, FOX...
Pretty much, Mary. These blogs, these little motes of light in a sea of idiocy like RR's letter, Heather Cox Richardson's daily post, Thom Hartman and a precious few others are our only hope .... how to wean the masses off of corporate media? It's really tough.
No, the Washington Post isn't as bad garbage as the NYT. I read them both every day for the 4 years of Voldemort's presidency. I don't start there--I start with the Guardian (not a big fan of HCR) and yes, I read other independent news sites too. But WaPo has been significantly less corrupt and right-leaning--and for a long time--than our national Pravda. So I'm sorry and angry about this. There's no way to wean "the masses" (the American people) off the most prevalent, most convenient news sources--most people don't have enough time to hunt their news down or read several sources! What has to happen is that US journalism gets better and braver than it has been in recent years. That is possible!
I think you give "most people" a bit too much credit, Mary. I don't think that "most People" simply don't have enough time or energy to pay attention. I believe that "most people" simply don't care.
Bozo something....
lol BEZOS!! 🙄
Lol. You mean bozos!?
The Democrats have a hard time framing all items of debate and controlling their message on most everything. You'd think by now they'd figure out how to. I dislike Republican policy but man they know how to pitch the right words and control the verbiage.
For example - Pro Life. As if everyone isn't pro-life? Republicans are really Pro-Birth because they don't support things that make "life" after birth better - don't support public education, don't want have affordable health care for everyone, don't support living wages, unconcerned with the long term life of anything on the planet (climate change), etc.
This is still just the preseason and Biden's GOAT(?) team has proven its ability to close when it counts, peaking just when needed before the debt ceiling super bowl in mid-May. Whether this right wing charade is right or wrong is another question; but Biden is simply stating the obvious of having parallel track negotiations. I would love to see Biden simply issue an executive order that kills the debt ceiling and simply ignore it. Some leading academics believe there's a compelling case to be made to do just that.
Agreed.
See my comments on the 14th Amendment, in this thread.
Where’s the reporting of the enormous $7.8 trillion debt racked up by Trump and his Republican Congress? Or the willingness of Republicans to raise the debt ceiling three times under Trump? Or the fact that Republican-sponsored tax cuts on big corporations and the rich substantially worsened the debt?
All Democrats should expose this scam for what it is at every opportunity in the media every chance they get, shove it down their throats. Democrats need to start fighting like Republicans do but with the truth on their side instead of the lies on the Republican side. I live in West Virginia, a very red state, and I get on my local NextDoor and challenge all the right-wing liars on there with the truth and prove it with legitimate fact-checking links. I may not change any minds but I will not let them continue to spread misinformation and lies without being challenged.
Until your neighbors weaponize NextDoor and incite some wingnut to shoot at your house.
The Dem’s just don’t know how to play
“Hard Ball” with the Republicans. That’s the only game that works in the Congress. They are pathetic at playing this game.
“The White House and the Democrats must do a better job framing the debt-ceiling issue. The media must do a better job reporting on it.”
Ain’t gonna happen. I’m not sure exactly why, but allowing gop to frame everything is Dems underwhelming M. O.
Why the NYT & WaPo allow the frame reveals their complicity in the capture of the fourth estate.
Meanwhile gop go into the meeting and come out of the meeting with NO PLAN except disruption.
There's not necessarily anything wrong with meeting with those involved with running our country even if his name is McCarthy. There are some areas where a compromise might be reached that might give McCarthy something to take to his devils in Congress. Just don't even think about Social Security or Medicare. Don't even whisper those words or me and my wheelchair army will hit the streets and slaughter whomever does so with our old medicine bottles. I'm sure some areas are a bit bloated especially those areas that the Repubs love. We'll find out just how serious the Repubs are about cutting the budget. I'm thinking in terms of the military budget. I'm thinking in terms of the police, and even the FBI and CIA. I'm thinking in terms of Homeland Security and Border Patrol. I'm sure some of you can think of a few more Repub favorite areas. Call their bluff. They will fold like trump in front of a grand jury.
Ok, this is bad. This is really very bad. I just purchased my monthly groceries at Walmart. I get the same thing every month and have the groceries delivered because I don't drive anymore. The cost was $425. It includes cat food for my indoor cats and several outdoor, community cats that I feed. The previous cost for my groceries have never been over $345, and usually the cost has been $330, and pre Covid less than $300. I'm living off Social Security and not a lot of that. The paltry 8.7% raise has done little to help. Anyway, the point of this is to sound a WARNING TO ALL. THIS IS NOT SUSTAINABLE! If the Biden government doesn't step in and at least recognize this problem immediately, the economy is in for a disastrous CRASH within the next two years. IT MAY BE TOO LATE NOW! I don't see anyone even talking about this. PEOPLE HAVE THEIR HEADS IN THE SAND, including the MEDIA, THE ADMINISTRATION AND CONGRESS. Am I overreacting? I don't think so. I don't mean to frighten anyone, but the problem is looming on the horizon. Have a wonderful weekend.
I’m astounded by how many people in high and/or advisory positions fail to articulate a critical, basic point: WE HAGE A DEBT-BASED CURRENCY SYSTEM!!
Reducing federal debt means reducing the supply of circulating money! With all of the current needs of the country, how the hell would that a good thing? The level of debt correlates 1:1 with the level of economic activity. Do we want to see less economic activity in this country? There's a name for that: "recession".
The key issue is not the sheer level of national debt but whether the money is being used productively or squandered upon efforts that add no real value to the country. (Hint: further enriching those who already have dozens or hundreds of times more wealth than they could practically use probably falls in the latter category.)
This is why I don’t donate to the Democratic Party. Just to certain democrats The party line is to cave Too many corporate interests involved in the official party policies