Thanks for your clarification. I submit the idea of putting self in other person's shoes. Surely there has never been a more "rock and hard place" situation than the set-in-stone American commitment to Israel and the American value against genocide. My own imagination humbly boggles. Biden seems to have attempted a "hail mary" rescue dock for Gaza that didn't work. Certainly, Harris made it clear that Trump's Muslim ban was part of what she was running against. Meanwhile, Trump is crystal clear he hates muslims, arabs, black men, et al.
I agree with 99% of what you have said, but we, as Americans, should unequivocally stand for doing the right thing. The right thing, in this specific instance, is to help eradicate Hamas and Hezbollah, but absolutely not help indiscriminate killing of Palestinian civilians, especially children. We certainly should not continue to aid and abet the killing of innocent Palestinian civilians - and now, Lebanese civilians. Nut-and-yahoo and his ilk are acting, with total impunity, like Jewish Nazis. There no other way to describe what they are doing. We stood up for Jewish people and lost many of our fellow citizens - to prevent the continuation of the unconscionable Holocaust. I say this as a guy who does not have a "dog in the fight," for I am not a Christian, nor a Muslim, nor a Jew. (I was born and raised a Hindu, but have been an atheist for the last 40 years.)
@Ragpad. The military forces of Hamas and Hezbollah walk among the Palestinians as fathers, brothers and sons. I should include women who are at least collaborators and sometimes combatants. You will note in the news that when it is reported that Israel blew up an apartment building and killed "civilians" it is often reported that one or the other high level operative of Hamas was killed in the attack. Here is a moral conundrum to try to unpack - who is more guilty of killing civilians, the active terrorists who purposefully hide in the midst of civilians, or the IDC who gather intelligence until they learn which group of collaborators is hiding the terrorists before they strike (collaborators designated civilians by Western media)?
Before someone accuses me of being anti-Palestinian, I am not. But anyone can see that non-State actors exploit the civilians on the ground to cover their war-making. And anyone can see that Iran's money is behind the violent terrorists because making war on Israel is a well-paying job that those miserable, oppressed, poverty-stricken recruits can't match in productive commerce. Israel, under Bibi's leadership has made a regrettable, immoral choice. Since the terrorists disrespect their own people to the extent that they put them in harms way by hiding among them, then Israel puts them in harms way by going after the terrorists wherever they hide...
@Benajmin R. Stockton, I agree with many of the points that you have made, but I think that @steve reed, below, summed up, very nicely. Just to add, the same "hiding-among-the-innocents" startegy is also prevalent among Israelis. Killing innocent civilians is not the answer; and it is certainly immoral, unconscionable, and should absolutely not be tolerated to any extent. Period. Israel waited decades to bring the Nazis to justice; they could and should do the same with Hamas and Hezbollah. At bottom, if Israel is unwilling to respect the basic human rights, then let us (the Americans) not get innocents' blood on our hands, by unconditionally supporting Israel. That is all I am asking.
@Ragpad. I don't condone any methods of war. I don't condone Israel nor Hamas nor Hezbollah. I don't condone Palestinians or others who collaborate with terrorists. As @steve reed says below, the question is what to do, but you can't figure it out without a serious effort to understand the conditions that exist. The elephant in the room, that nobody in power wants to talk about, is the source of funds and the means of distribution of those funds that exist among the State actors in the region, Iran most famously, but not Iran alone...
In addition to those that you mentioned, the other elephant(s) in the room, in my opinion, are, inter alia, the creation of the State of Israel without any regard to Palestinians already living there; importation of Jews, solely based on their religion. First, we MUST understand the real history of the region, without being biased by any specific religious influennce. That is just my thought, but ...
Ragpad ; How would You do it? This has been going on for a long long time. The Oct. 7 attacks were planned to drive wedges between those of US of the United States. It is an intractable force that could lead us into World War three. What would President Biden be charged with if he just cut off all aid to Israel? Weapons support included. When the whole world watched enemies of Israel move in and exterminate Israelis and take what land there is. What help would that be for the Palestinans? What would President Biden be seen as? The Iron dome helps, but as we have seen : it is not the answer to everything.
Hmm... Yes, @Laurie Blair, it is a very thorny issue, for we were instrumental (along with the damn Brits and the French) in creating this issue ab initio in 1948. I am not sure that the I agree with "Oct. 7 attacks were planned to drive wedges between those of US of the United States," although sadly it certainly has had that effect.
I can think of multiple pathways to a resolution - may not be a peaceful one - to this issue; but almost all of involve a a firm resolve and tough stance on our part and being ready to walk away from the whole mess. However, before we do that we (the powers that be) really understand the history of the "conflict," without any bias to either side. Only then, we can be a true "peacemaker," whatever that may mean. Having said this, I think Israelis and Palestinians themselves should play a major role in this resolution. For that to happen, we really need moderates with a laissez faire mentality on booth sides. And it ain't happening with Nut-and-yahoo and Hamas/Hezbollah around.
Until then, the best that we can do is not to get blood on our hands, by supplying offensive weapons to Israel and providin ONLY the humanitarian assistance to both sides. And no aid to Israel if it continues to expand the illegal settlements. Frankly, I do not care (I am really tired of both Israeli and Hamas/Hezbollah terorrists). If they do not listen, let them kill each other to their heart's content; let the dust settle; and let us see how long they last. As Teddy Roosevelt said, we should speak softly, but carry a big stick (and hit them hard with it, if need be).
We must stop playing the bullshit red and blue, divide the nation, wither the nation, game. As long as we're fighting each other, then idiots, cucks, cunts and convicts, who don't give a fuck about us, will continue to craft our laws, will continue to sell weapons to Israel, will continue gutting our social programs until there's nothing left, and will continue to subsidize corporations that they own in order to maximize the profits for themselves. Unfettered capitalism will be the death of us all. We must do the Revolution, and we can create a pretty sweet app for that, or so I dream... https://www.humbledeeds.com
With respect: what groups?
Muslim, Arabs, black men, et al.
Thanks for your clarification. I submit the idea of putting self in other person's shoes. Surely there has never been a more "rock and hard place" situation than the set-in-stone American commitment to Israel and the American value against genocide. My own imagination humbly boggles. Biden seems to have attempted a "hail mary" rescue dock for Gaza that didn't work. Certainly, Harris made it clear that Trump's Muslim ban was part of what she was running against. Meanwhile, Trump is crystal clear he hates muslims, arabs, black men, et al.
I agree with 99% of what you have said, but we, as Americans, should unequivocally stand for doing the right thing. The right thing, in this specific instance, is to help eradicate Hamas and Hezbollah, but absolutely not help indiscriminate killing of Palestinian civilians, especially children. We certainly should not continue to aid and abet the killing of innocent Palestinian civilians - and now, Lebanese civilians. Nut-and-yahoo and his ilk are acting, with total impunity, like Jewish Nazis. There no other way to describe what they are doing. We stood up for Jewish people and lost many of our fellow citizens - to prevent the continuation of the unconscionable Holocaust. I say this as a guy who does not have a "dog in the fight," for I am not a Christian, nor a Muslim, nor a Jew. (I was born and raised a Hindu, but have been an atheist for the last 40 years.)
@Ragpad. The military forces of Hamas and Hezbollah walk among the Palestinians as fathers, brothers and sons. I should include women who are at least collaborators and sometimes combatants. You will note in the news that when it is reported that Israel blew up an apartment building and killed "civilians" it is often reported that one or the other high level operative of Hamas was killed in the attack. Here is a moral conundrum to try to unpack - who is more guilty of killing civilians, the active terrorists who purposefully hide in the midst of civilians, or the IDC who gather intelligence until they learn which group of collaborators is hiding the terrorists before they strike (collaborators designated civilians by Western media)?
Before someone accuses me of being anti-Palestinian, I am not. But anyone can see that non-State actors exploit the civilians on the ground to cover their war-making. And anyone can see that Iran's money is behind the violent terrorists because making war on Israel is a well-paying job that those miserable, oppressed, poverty-stricken recruits can't match in productive commerce. Israel, under Bibi's leadership has made a regrettable, immoral choice. Since the terrorists disrespect their own people to the extent that they put them in harms way by hiding among them, then Israel puts them in harms way by going after the terrorists wherever they hide...
As I said, regrettable, immoral but pragmatic.
@Benajmin R. Stockton, I agree with many of the points that you have made, but I think that @steve reed, below, summed up, very nicely. Just to add, the same "hiding-among-the-innocents" startegy is also prevalent among Israelis. Killing innocent civilians is not the answer; and it is certainly immoral, unconscionable, and should absolutely not be tolerated to any extent. Period. Israel waited decades to bring the Nazis to justice; they could and should do the same with Hamas and Hezbollah. At bottom, if Israel is unwilling to respect the basic human rights, then let us (the Americans) not get innocents' blood on our hands, by unconditionally supporting Israel. That is all I am asking.
@Ragpad. I don't condone any methods of war. I don't condone Israel nor Hamas nor Hezbollah. I don't condone Palestinians or others who collaborate with terrorists. As @steve reed says below, the question is what to do, but you can't figure it out without a serious effort to understand the conditions that exist. The elephant in the room, that nobody in power wants to talk about, is the source of funds and the means of distribution of those funds that exist among the State actors in the region, Iran most famously, but not Iran alone...
@Benajmin R. Stockton,
In addition to those that you mentioned, the other elephant(s) in the room, in my opinion, are, inter alia, the creation of the State of Israel without any regard to Palestinians already living there; importation of Jews, solely based on their religion. First, we MUST understand the real history of the region, without being biased by any specific religious influennce. That is just my thought, but ...
Ragpad ; How would You do it? This has been going on for a long long time. The Oct. 7 attacks were planned to drive wedges between those of US of the United States. It is an intractable force that could lead us into World War three. What would President Biden be charged with if he just cut off all aid to Israel? Weapons support included. When the whole world watched enemies of Israel move in and exterminate Israelis and take what land there is. What help would that be for the Palestinans? What would President Biden be seen as? The Iron dome helps, but as we have seen : it is not the answer to everything.
Hmm... Yes, @Laurie Blair, it is a very thorny issue, for we were instrumental (along with the damn Brits and the French) in creating this issue ab initio in 1948. I am not sure that the I agree with "Oct. 7 attacks were planned to drive wedges between those of US of the United States," although sadly it certainly has had that effect.
I can think of multiple pathways to a resolution - may not be a peaceful one - to this issue; but almost all of involve a a firm resolve and tough stance on our part and being ready to walk away from the whole mess. However, before we do that we (the powers that be) really understand the history of the "conflict," without any bias to either side. Only then, we can be a true "peacemaker," whatever that may mean. Having said this, I think Israelis and Palestinians themselves should play a major role in this resolution. For that to happen, we really need moderates with a laissez faire mentality on booth sides. And it ain't happening with Nut-and-yahoo and Hamas/Hezbollah around.
Until then, the best that we can do is not to get blood on our hands, by supplying offensive weapons to Israel and providin ONLY the humanitarian assistance to both sides. And no aid to Israel if it continues to expand the illegal settlements. Frankly, I do not care (I am really tired of both Israeli and Hamas/Hezbollah terorrists). If they do not listen, let them kill each other to their heart's content; let the dust settle; and let us see how long they last. As Teddy Roosevelt said, we should speak softly, but carry a big stick (and hit them hard with it, if need be).
The question is what is the best way forward.
We must stop playing the bullshit red and blue, divide the nation, wither the nation, game. As long as we're fighting each other, then idiots, cucks, cunts and convicts, who don't give a fuck about us, will continue to craft our laws, will continue to sell weapons to Israel, will continue gutting our social programs until there's nothing left, and will continue to subsidize corporations that they own in order to maximize the profits for themselves. Unfettered capitalism will be the death of us all. We must do the Revolution, and we can create a pretty sweet app for that, or so I dream... https://www.humbledeeds.com
Exactly!
Israel has been committing genocide and those who study what genocide is agree, including the UN.
Mmerose ; He hates Women of all races, too.