Nov 23, 2022·edited Nov 23, 2022Liked by Robert Reich
I would not talk about politics with someone who has emotionally invested in reactionary thinking -- especially during a holiday and if we can get along otherwise.
I recently retired from a psychology practice and have an Ivy League marketing education. Early in my psychology training I studied cults. With retirement I've had time to read more deeply again. These recent readings have been most useful: The Authoritarians by Bob Altemeyer; The Righteous Mind by Jonathan Haidt; The Rhetoric of Reaction: Perversity, Futility, Jeopardy by Albert O. Hirschman; and The Polarized Mind by Kirk Schneider, especially the chapter about a debate champion with a light touch who may ask one's basis for believing something and let them ponder that. I've learned:
1) Reactionary believers can't be persuaded by factual argument in the short run. They're not emotionally or temperamentally open (mostly from Altemeyer's description of right wing authoritarians). Liberals trying to "explain" things piss them off, which is counterproductive.
2) I'm able to emotionally connect with people with different political beliefs on other bases. This develops mutual respect, and I can better learn about their values (from experiences with neighbors and psychotherapy clients and studying motivational interviewing). Also, you close sales by overcoming objections, which you don't know unless you hear them.
3) Conversations went nowhere when others had short-term memory problems or were distractible and intense because of mental health issues.
4) When canvassing, someone stridently pressed me, so I stated my exact opposite stance but didn't argue as he raised the next challenge. I may have merited respect as a fellow veteran and via calmly standing my ground. Door knocking was successful because I broke off such conversations and interacted with those who were more open.
5. I encountered just a few intensely rude MAGA types and immediately broke off engagement. My family has ended a relationship with a belligerent relative who's mentally ill. There's no relationship with a bully.
6) Canvassing revealed committed Republicans rejecting local "America First" candidates, whom we defeated!
My family fled Nazi Austria, so I know how bad things can get and am committed to opposing the ongoing threat to democracy.
I agree. I don't have anyone like that in my life now-- on purpose. If facts mattered we wouldn't be where we are now. Have a happy, and peaceful Thanksgiving.
Yes! Over the years I have supported many people leaving cults, having been in one myself! Nothing quite like a good cult! The main one to be wary about is between our ears! One of my favorite books about cults is Combating Cult Mind Control by Steven Hassan.
As a nurse, I've been educated to keep my cool no matter how (choose an adjective: idiotic, uninformed, hostile, delusional, paranoid, psychotic) someone is. Agree with Gary S. Once people are dug in with their belief system, it is impossible to change their mind.
Dinner with husband's cousins. Mentioned I had signed up for CNN's (never got off the ground) new pay-to-listen programming. Cousin's wife lectured me about where I get my news. Then out of left field, exploded: "What about Hunter's laptop?"
I played dumb. "I don't know much about that. What's the issue with the laptop?"
She had no answers. (Neutral nurse face, patiently waiting. Husband kicked me under the table.)
Last get together. One more reason to be thankful.
LOL! Last night we watched the film, Don’t Look Up. Too many people can’t wrap their heads around the unthinkable things tfg and his acolytes have been doing, climate change, a pandemic treated like a PR problem, a violent coup, a president in Putin’s pocket, etc., so they want to investigate Hunter’s laptop.
MY family also fled Nazi Austria - I know exactly where you stand and I am right there with you. Add this book to your reading list: The Order of the Day by Éric Vuillard. Short but brilliant meditation and history of the Anschluss. Things were never quite what they seemed!
I've added that to my list, thank you. Here's part of my family's experience. My maternal grandmother was still in Austria when Kristallnacht happened, the night of broken glass when the Nazis unleashed pogroms against the Jews. My mother, formerly a glamorous model, had escaped to England, where she was a housecleaner for an English lord. She only spoke German but used a German-English dictionary to translate a letter to her employer word for word, pleading for a visa. That lord granted her wish, and my grandmother emigrated to England.
Thanks for sharing this amazing story! In my case, shortly after my father was released from Dachau and Buchenwald in Feb of 1939, he and his brother (who was there with him) fled to Shanghai. My mother and I followed a year later and we survived the war and then immigrated to Australia where some of my mother's family had managed to get to before the war. It's a complex story I will be happy to share with you off-list.
You drove to the heart of the matter: even brain-washed _rumplicans have the ability to be fun people in real life! You feel bad for them, but have to trust that, if they are smart enough, they will get out of the cult on their own. Especially since Bunkerboy is living on borrowed time by devouring all those "berders" 24/7.
I can appreciate your open heart to be compassionate for the "rumplicans." But I will disagree with you one a point here. These "rumplicans" are hateful, racist, fanatically bigoted, AUTHORITARIAN and dangerous to everyone in their midst. While we're "waiting for them to get out of their cult" THEY VOTE, against gun legislation, for Christian Nationalism destroying education AND this country, they foment the violence, block immigration reform, suppressing the voting, going after reproductive rights, women's health care rights, and on and on and on. We can't get the legislators we need to KEEP THIS COUNTRY A DEMOCRACY because of the fanatics.
I applaud the writer here who got a lot of the news out his life to destress and people who got the toxic, unpleasant ones out of their lives and/or won't let them in. I have achieved that, mostly. I have lifelong friends and some relatives who have gone Trump who I have not purged, I consider them to be, what's the term, "grandfathered" in my life. But otherwise I don't want depressed women (some of my peers, yeah), any Republican, racist (that makes me crazy)anywhere near me. I have a sister-in-law who was always fun and enjoyable, she became a born again Christian many years ago leaving Catholicism. She now, for years, has been a 24/7 watcher of Fox News, and whoa, has she's way down the rabbit hole. She'll never recover. I keep my distance but I am always kind and decent as I try to remember all the things that were so good about her. By the way, on my husband's side of the family there are Republican right wingers and deeply religious evangelical Christians, and they're lovely people that I love. I am the only Jew. As radical as everything is we keep the toxic American politics out of our relationships.
Finally, I am so blessed to have raised 3 adults who are as ragingly progressive. I know people who were always progressive with adult kids who became Republican. It can happen! Finally, finally, THIS is the ONLY PLACEI talk politics . Wishing everyone a very healthy, enjoyable Thanksgiving holiday. Stay safe.
I appreciate your commitment. But so's this guy committed. Although this isn't about a Thanksgiving dinner rant from a relative, it's about a subculture of those the Uncle Bob's support, even though you and many here have - perhaps - never had the kind of contact with them this fellow - and I, for one - have had: https://youtu.be/iUlX5IFwe9c It's why I keep including Jordan Klepper links showing his experience at MAGA rallies. Pay close attention to what o' Texas Paul says at the end of his clip, here, about who they are and the possibility of finding common ground with them.
Your recommended reading, yikes. But, it’s what democratic responsibility looks like. Studying, figuring out how we got here, by working from vantage on the shoulders of giants, or even just reading over the shoulder of giants (I won’t understand these works sufficiently, too little foundation, but I’ll stay close, some concepts may produce growth).
I'm reading these books for the pleasure of being able to read and theorize again, but also to summarize for others who would benefit from the information but don't have the time. I wouldn't discount your ability to understand what you read if you subscribe to Robert Reich.
The most readable and informative of these is The Authoritarians by Bob Altemeyer. He also offers it as a free download. The file was corrupted when I last looked on his site. But it's available here:
You can also order the book inexpensively here directly from the publisher, www.lulu.com. On that site, choose Bookstore. Then search for The Authoritarians. You'll find a version for less than $10 plus shipping. Others mark it up more.
You can see a summary of the Jonathan Haidt work online at:
I found his book a bit challenging to read because of his style.
The Albert O. Hirschman book is an intellectual feast, but I'm finding the need to take my time, chew on his thoughts and take notes. I'm through enough of it to recommend it.
The style of The Polarized Mind was quite accessible, but for me it wasn't as densely packed with nuggets of information as the others listed here.
There is a very readable classic that you may find interesting. It's brief and beautifully written. The True Believers by Eric Hoffer.
In my family, they are ALL Uncle Bobs, and I am the "Crazy" one who dared defy my Father's demand that I vote for HIS guy (Republican, of course) and voted for Obama. I am staying home with my "furry family" and will enjoy the peace and quiet. :)
I had an Uncle George in Mississippi who wanted me to vote for George Wallace in 1968. I was quite young then so humored him but voted for Nixon. (Sorry - This was my first time voting and name recognition was all I knew.)
Yeah, who was this Hubert Humphrey guy anyhow. Srsly, I had no idea except Nixon was Eisenhower's VP, so name recognition. Haven't voted for a Republican since. At least I knew who George Wallace was and did not vote for him.
Oof! Sorry you got stuck in a crazy family, Ms. Chamberlain! And despite my family being leftwing, we are doing the same. My aunt is hopefully coming over and my sister is ALREADY here for the week. My two puppies are INSANELY happy.:D
I hear ya'! In my OH hardcore from the Civil War Republican family - what's left of it - >I'm< considered the "Uncle Bob!" They >clearly< don't "get" the irony! On the other hand, in family reunions, out of about 100 who attend, about 5 or 6 of us actually bear my family name!
since i was disowned when i was 15, and ended up homeless as a result, i no longer have an uncle bob, or violent parents, or anyone else like that to deal with. i am in the position where i get to choose my family, and thus, am finally free of physical, intellectual, and psychological violence and cruelty.
It's not easy speaking truth to power, especially at that age. But it's gotta be done to make change. You're strong and you ROCK! Happy Thanksgiving! <3
Creating a new family of people you love and who love you takes guts. Like a neglected plant that grows in the tiny space of a sidewalk crack, your determination to blossom deserves to be celebrated! ❤️
Roger, I just got around to reading your comment. I am sorry you had such a callous father. I am glad, however, you kept your own counsel and did what worked for you musically. That is truly a thing to be thankful for, even though there are plenty of folks who will never understand that.
I have largely purged my life of those people who take pride in being maliciously ignorant. I lost patience with the virulent deniers of reality, facts and truth. So, I moved on for the sake of my health and sanity.
@Tom. A few years ago I quit Facebook in order to literally avoid relatives who couldn't hear anything they hadn't heard on right wing radio shows or Faux Noose.
Nov 23, 2022·edited Nov 23, 2022Liked by Robert Reich
Relentlessly, I will ask him if he supports Hershal Walker, the Republican Senate candidate who held a gun to his girlfriend's head and threatened her life, AND paid for an abortion, and NOW wants to ban abortions, AND has a secret child. OR does he want to do the real RIGHT thing and voice his support for Sen. Warnock, a Man of the Cloth?
I will not let up or stop until Uncle Bob (Tommy) admits that Mr. Walker has NO business representing Republicans, Georgians or even football players in the US Senate. In fact, he should DONATE to the Warnock Campaign to support the best man, AND help save the soul of the Republican Party because if Republicans send Walker to Washington DC, they've reached a NEW LOW because Walker is such a liar, hypocrite, and rotten father and human.
"Uncle Bob, where are your ethics, morals and logic? You cant just sit back and say nothing. That's passively supporting Walker. Do you really want to be like Mitch and put Party before People and Country?"
Fair disclosure: I recently accepted a position to promote democracy (and morality, ethics and logic) in GA. ;-)
Danny, your questioning sounds relentless. Good for you. I am appalled that even the racist Georgians can stand voting for Herschel Walker. He himself knows he is not up to the task, but you know how hard it is for a guy like him to back down. Good luck in your new position in GA. It might be tough but interesting.
In the LBJ tapes, one of Lyndon's people explained that they had won every state except MS, AL and GA. To this, LBJ replied, "well, Alabama is too stupid, and Mississippi is the same way. But their ain't no excuse for Georgia."
Haters are everywhere. In general, its unfair and wrong to make broad, sweeping, disparaging statements about any group of people. I'm pretty sure that many, many thousands of rural GA people are fair-minded and not hateful. I'm sure many rural Georgians think Jimmy Carter is a great man, and a real Christian who "walks the talk." President Carter proves that some rural Georgians are wonderful, caring Americans, and the Salt of the Earth.
My grandfather lived in a small, rural Louisiana town. One time my grandfather's best friend told me about when he and my grandfather protested the KKK. So it just goes to show, not everybody in the rural, deep South is an ignorant hater with Yankee issues. The haters that I've met and had issues with end up respecting me because I know all the words to every Lynyrd Skynyrd song. That makes me more Southern than they are. LOL.
It is good for the soul of the American nation to have a celebration of unity which is not dependent upon one dominant religious feast.The healing process of family and friends travelling across this country to share a meal and celebrate national unity cannot ever be undervalued. Peace and reconciliation to all Americans from across the Atlantic!
Many families have their own “Uncle Bob” and some have become estranged from one another (like mine) and still, as bewildered as I am, I cannot understand the hatred that the former occupant of the Peoples House emboldened. My twin never used to be like this. He was light and funny and always loving. (We still get along because) I see these qualities are still there somewhere, and I do not discuss politics with him because I do not want to rock the boat, so to speak. I simply know that my vote cancels out his except for State runs. But he has broken our mothers heart and she laments the loss of her second son even though she puts on a brave face.
Segue… The other elephant in the room - FORGIVENESS…
Happy Thanksgiving Professor Reich… please excuse my absence- I don’t comment much anymore and, simply put, I cannot afford to donate anymore for the time being.
Great film, Prof. Reich! Many thanks for that! If we all enter the Thanksgiving zone chuckling, good things will come of it. I'm tucking "facts not labels" under my hat for quick access.
I find the choices offered here typically neoliberal and divisive. Where is the option to "find common ground" in an attempt to heal the divisions that pundits and media outlets are capitalizing on foe fun and profit? I talk to Trump supporters every day, primarily in the context of our commoditized and inaccessible health care system, and they all agree wholeheartedly when I point out the reason for its failure is the reason for the failure of most of our institutions eg that both parties are run by much the same monied interests. There is also common ground in the futility of perpetual war, including our current escalation towards nuclear confrontation in our inexplicable proxy war with Russia. There is a lot more common ground, but if the "other" is dehumanized, reduced to a "racist" or a "socialist" or whatever the establishment finds most effective, we will never have the things we need to promote the common good.
@Barry. There should be an effort to find common ground with our fellow citizens. But you undermine your own credibility when you characterize discussions here as "typical neoliberal" demonstrating that you don't know what that phrase means. Further, when you frame the resistance to Putin's aggression as Biden's proxy war you show yourself to be an ally of Putin and an echo chamber for the misinformation bandied by his agencies and apologists. So I can assure you that we won't be finding common ground while you are willfully putting out propaganda disguised as discussion, anti-American tropes disguised as "insights", and defenses of authoritarianism trying to masquerade as its opposite. It doesn't really matter if you're a citizen or if you're an actor for Russian trolls - your expression here is doing the work of Russian trolls. Won't work...
You're definitely the better person on this blog. Thanks for shining the light to lead us out of the darkness. Such a simple solution and we all missed it. Excuse me... I'm going to move to another pew.
That is not offered as a "solution" just an alternative to the binary thinking that is so easy to ascribe to in our current consolidated media climate.
both parties are run by much the same monied interests
Let's talk about antitrust enforcement, deficit spending/fiscal policy, and the fact that one party supported Fascism while the other has worked for free and fair elections. Same interests?
Yes, thank you. There is a wealth of opinions here but I would caution folks about using fake "uneducated" southern dialect to indicate "stupid" as it really infuriates southerners like me.
Good luck with the "common ground" stuff. My ancestors were Confederate soldiers and overseers on plantations. They were men and women of their time and place. If I could see them now I would not care what their politics were then or now. I would like to ask my great, great grandfather what it was like being a confederate soldier for four long years.
Well I have talked to 10 to 20 Trump supporters a day over the past 6 years in an authentic fashion and almodt all agree that there should be some form of national health care system while both Democrats and Republicans and their media frame it as "socialism" so I am getting further with them than Democratic Party leadership. And all agree that corporate money has turned our government against us.
I am long past letting ordinary politeness reign in theses extraordinary times. I won’t knowingly meet with anyone voting not-Dem or holding such positions. Friends and family alike get prefixed with former-, and I am not quiet about why.
My wife and have branches that are racist through and through. Gratefully we are about 900 miles removed from them and will not see them on Thanksgiving. Once upon a time we would all go over the river and through the woods to get together every year, even when we lived in California or Miami. No longer.
My wife has a nephew who is between jobs again this year. Father of three. Had a bitter divorce. Went through alcohol withdrawal. He was valedictorian in his high school class and has a master's in history. But at an early age was probably bullied. Was influenced by Rush Limbaugh. I tried to help him get a position as a teaching assistant, to get into a joint policy/law school program. But he couldn't get along with his advisors, and wrote a published thesis in essence defending Roger B. Taney and his opinion in the Dred Scott case. He helped write racist briefs in some SCOTUS cases involving affirmative action and racial discrimination. Once was an intern to Republicans in the Senate and to the Senate judiciary committee. He was editor of a proprietary newspaper where for 20 years he interviewed mainly "conservative" authors and was widely published. He also is a 2nd Amendment nut and writes articles for gun magazines.
My wife talks to his mother every day. Her son has cowed his parents. I'm sure he tells them how to vote. However they live in Maryland. Probably always support losers.
My sister in law worked in the office of the Commissioner, Social Security Administration. Her son at every chance wrote misinformation against the entire concept. At first he depicted it as a generational battle, later it was depicted as socialism, an unlawful appropriation. Now his kids need Medicaid. His parents, now retired, have been supporting him and the 3 kids. When the child tax credit was in force, those kids generated $900 per month. The kids attend a private all white religious school. The tuition is extremely high. They moved to an all white neighborhood north of Baltimore, too remote to commute to DC where the jobs are.
My brother in law had been the vice president of a liquor company and has a good pension. But I'm sure my wife has been helping them.
I'm sure we are depicted as the enemy: deep state agents who undermine their lifestyle.
This year I'm getting them matching Ravens' jerseys: Number 8, Lamar Jackson. Psy ops.
@Daniel. What an interesting biography, and how well you illustrate the mindset of those who cannot be persuaded by any means. I think it is very important to know that not everyone on the far right are followers; No, some of these folks are the authors of hate, misinformation and racism.
Forget trying to change a fascist into a liberal. They are what they are! If you went to Germany today you would find old Hitler supporters thinking the same way they did back in 1939. They just have to die off and the sooner the better.
I would no longer entertain the company of friends or relatives who would divide our social cohesion. If Uncle Bob showed up in a Confederate uniform he would be under the engagement rules for foreign enemies, not go along to get along.
I would focus on the day, Thanksgiving. How much it has evolved. It is Indigenous Peoples Month. American politics has no business being discussed on Thanksgiving. We can learn much from the indigenous people to respect nature.
Columbus, The Pilgrims were focused on their narrow views on personal wealth and power. We can see what that has gotten us today.
The indigenous people had their politics too. Tribes tried to play English off against French. A tragic dilemma: so many people eager to escape Europe. The tribe in my part of northeast Ohio - the Erie -- had pretty much been exterminated by larger tribes by the time the first White settlers arrived from Connecticut. Conflict appears to be the human condition.
We didn’t see ships of indigenous people sail to Europe and plant a flag and proclaim it as their land. Territorial disputes happen in nature all the time.
Michael Duffy ; Apples and oranges; indigenous people had no ships: different culture. Yes, conquest is a major feature of history. Does not mean it is ok. It's what happened.
Well Uncle Bob is not the problem , he is dead at this point. But ever since last year or more correctly the pandemic beginning I’ve been forced deal with friends educated and ignoramuses that think that Fox News Commentators are presenting facts. People with just high school educations are just as recently as Monday night telling me that RNA based vaccines are experimental and not approved by the FDA and they are not getting vaccinated or boosted.
Firstly I’ve had friends an eighty year old with heart issues die from Covid,.
Secondly a cousin a registered nurse fully vaccinated And boosted  of 54 years die as a result of Covid .
Thirdly a former commander of the Largest American Legion in The world die from Covid complications.
Yet the well meaning nutters spout right wing television propaganda on every subject from taxes to inflation to vaccinations as Joe Biden caused events and a Government Plot to take our freedoms.
One intelligent but television indoctrinated citizen informed me that the vast majority of military members were refusing to get Covid vaccinated .
(Actually finally a less than a thousand military forces were separated because of Covid vaccine refusal .
The Science/religion contest goes on while TV commentators Rake in their dollars stirring up the great unwashed to darwinian extinction prizes.
Covid followed the standard pandemic Protocol of the first wave being the most deadly wave in follow one waves of infection were more communicable and less deadly but deadly nonetheless.
Covid has proven we are entitled to our own opinions but we’re not entitled to our own facts. The politicalization of Covid science into political propaganda with the only goal of increasing viewership at the expense of peoples lives is the greatest shame of mass communication in my lifetime
I find it worrisome that people are so frightened of uncertainty that they reject reality. We have so little certainty about COVID, and that’s humbling.
I really enjoyed this. I no longer have a family. But If I did I'm sure there would be an "Uncle Bob". I do remember a conversation with a Trump supporting hardware clerk about a year ago when she revealed that she hadn't gotten a vaccination for COVID and had many weird arguments, like uncle Bob" , against it. After addressing her many arguments, which regardless of the facts was making no impact at all, I finally said what was on my mind. I told her that I didn't care about being right, I just didn't want her to die. I told her that she was the best hardware "guy" I had ever dealt with and that she would be greatly missed. Then something very unexpected happened, she came to tears. A few weeks later she revealed that she had gotten a vaccination. I don't know what actually convinced her, it might have been a family member or someone else. But I like to think that I helped.
I would not talk about politics with someone who has emotionally invested in reactionary thinking -- especially during a holiday and if we can get along otherwise.
I recently retired from a psychology practice and have an Ivy League marketing education. Early in my psychology training I studied cults. With retirement I've had time to read more deeply again. These recent readings have been most useful: The Authoritarians by Bob Altemeyer; The Righteous Mind by Jonathan Haidt; The Rhetoric of Reaction: Perversity, Futility, Jeopardy by Albert O. Hirschman; and The Polarized Mind by Kirk Schneider, especially the chapter about a debate champion with a light touch who may ask one's basis for believing something and let them ponder that. I've learned:
1) Reactionary believers can't be persuaded by factual argument in the short run. They're not emotionally or temperamentally open (mostly from Altemeyer's description of right wing authoritarians). Liberals trying to "explain" things piss them off, which is counterproductive.
2) I'm able to emotionally connect with people with different political beliefs on other bases. This develops mutual respect, and I can better learn about their values (from experiences with neighbors and psychotherapy clients and studying motivational interviewing). Also, you close sales by overcoming objections, which you don't know unless you hear them.
3) Conversations went nowhere when others had short-term memory problems or were distractible and intense because of mental health issues.
4) When canvassing, someone stridently pressed me, so I stated my exact opposite stance but didn't argue as he raised the next challenge. I may have merited respect as a fellow veteran and via calmly standing my ground. Door knocking was successful because I broke off such conversations and interacted with those who were more open.
5. I encountered just a few intensely rude MAGA types and immediately broke off engagement. My family has ended a relationship with a belligerent relative who's mentally ill. There's no relationship with a bully.
6) Canvassing revealed committed Republicans rejecting local "America First" candidates, whom we defeated!
My family fled Nazi Austria, so I know how bad things can get and am committed to opposing the ongoing threat to democracy.
May I come over to your house for Thanksgiving? I'll bring wine.
me too!
may I bring
my litterbox?
That’s hilarious
@Cyrano. Hey! Wine! What a good idea. Can I start now? ;-D
I agree. I don't have anyone like that in my life now-- on purpose. If facts mattered we wouldn't be where we are now. Have a happy, and peaceful Thanksgiving.
Yes! Over the years I have supported many people leaving cults, having been in one myself! Nothing quite like a good cult! The main one to be wary about is between our ears! One of my favorite books about cults is Combating Cult Mind Control by Steven Hassan.
As a nurse, I've been educated to keep my cool no matter how (choose an adjective: idiotic, uninformed, hostile, delusional, paranoid, psychotic) someone is. Agree with Gary S. Once people are dug in with their belief system, it is impossible to change their mind.
Dinner with husband's cousins. Mentioned I had signed up for CNN's (never got off the ground) new pay-to-listen programming. Cousin's wife lectured me about where I get my news. Then out of left field, exploded: "What about Hunter's laptop?"
I played dumb. "I don't know much about that. What's the issue with the laptop?"
She had no answers. (Neutral nurse face, patiently waiting. Husband kicked me under the table.)
Last get together. One more reason to be thankful.
LOL! Last night we watched the film, Don’t Look Up. Too many people can’t wrap their heads around the unthinkable things tfg and his acolytes have been doing, climate change, a pandemic treated like a PR problem, a violent coup, a president in Putin’s pocket, etc., so they want to investigate Hunter’s laptop.
MY family also fled Nazi Austria - I know exactly where you stand and I am right there with you. Add this book to your reading list: The Order of the Day by Éric Vuillard. Short but brilliant meditation and history of the Anschluss. Things were never quite what they seemed!
I've added that to my list, thank you. Here's part of my family's experience. My maternal grandmother was still in Austria when Kristallnacht happened, the night of broken glass when the Nazis unleashed pogroms against the Jews. My mother, formerly a glamorous model, had escaped to England, where she was a housecleaner for an English lord. She only spoke German but used a German-English dictionary to translate a letter to her employer word for word, pleading for a visa. That lord granted her wish, and my grandmother emigrated to England.
Thanks for sharing this amazing story! In my case, shortly after my father was released from Dachau and Buchenwald in Feb of 1939, he and his brother (who was there with him) fled to Shanghai. My mother and I followed a year later and we survived the war and then immigrated to Australia where some of my mother's family had managed to get to before the war. It's a complex story I will be happy to share with you off-list.
How do we share off-list?
Send email to me at oscarreich@musicalpassions.com. This will get to me and I will know instantly if anyone else is trying to get to me.
Thank you too, I’m grateful to share thanksgiving with you as my neighbor!
You drove to the heart of the matter: even brain-washed _rumplicans have the ability to be fun people in real life! You feel bad for them, but have to trust that, if they are smart enough, they will get out of the cult on their own. Especially since Bunkerboy is living on borrowed time by devouring all those "berders" 24/7.
I can appreciate your open heart to be compassionate for the "rumplicans." But I will disagree with you one a point here. These "rumplicans" are hateful, racist, fanatically bigoted, AUTHORITARIAN and dangerous to everyone in their midst. While we're "waiting for them to get out of their cult" THEY VOTE, against gun legislation, for Christian Nationalism destroying education AND this country, they foment the violence, block immigration reform, suppressing the voting, going after reproductive rights, women's health care rights, and on and on and on. We can't get the legislators we need to KEEP THIS COUNTRY A DEMOCRACY because of the fanatics.
I applaud the writer here who got a lot of the news out his life to destress and people who got the toxic, unpleasant ones out of their lives and/or won't let them in. I have achieved that, mostly. I have lifelong friends and some relatives who have gone Trump who I have not purged, I consider them to be, what's the term, "grandfathered" in my life. But otherwise I don't want depressed women (some of my peers, yeah), any Republican, racist (that makes me crazy)anywhere near me. I have a sister-in-law who was always fun and enjoyable, she became a born again Christian many years ago leaving Catholicism. She now, for years, has been a 24/7 watcher of Fox News, and whoa, has she's way down the rabbit hole. She'll never recover. I keep my distance but I am always kind and decent as I try to remember all the things that were so good about her. By the way, on my husband's side of the family there are Republican right wingers and deeply religious evangelical Christians, and they're lovely people that I love. I am the only Jew. As radical as everything is we keep the toxic American politics out of our relationships.
Finally, I am so blessed to have raised 3 adults who are as ragingly progressive. I know people who were always progressive with adult kids who became Republican. It can happen! Finally, finally, THIS is the ONLY PLACEI talk politics . Wishing everyone a very healthy, enjoyable Thanksgiving holiday. Stay safe.
As I understand it, cultists tend to have been raised, whatever their original faith—Christian, Jewish, other—at the far extreme of the beliefs.
I appreciate your commitment. But so's this guy committed. Although this isn't about a Thanksgiving dinner rant from a relative, it's about a subculture of those the Uncle Bob's support, even though you and many here have - perhaps - never had the kind of contact with them this fellow - and I, for one - have had: https://youtu.be/iUlX5IFwe9c It's why I keep including Jordan Klepper links showing his experience at MAGA rallies. Pay close attention to what o' Texas Paul says at the end of his clip, here, about who they are and the possibility of finding common ground with them.
Your recommended reading, yikes. But, it’s what democratic responsibility looks like. Studying, figuring out how we got here, by working from vantage on the shoulders of giants, or even just reading over the shoulder of giants (I won’t understand these works sufficiently, too little foundation, but I’ll stay close, some concepts may produce growth).
I'm reading these books for the pleasure of being able to read and theorize again, but also to summarize for others who would benefit from the information but don't have the time. I wouldn't discount your ability to understand what you read if you subscribe to Robert Reich.
The most readable and informative of these is The Authoritarians by Bob Altemeyer. He also offers it as a free download. The file was corrupted when I last looked on his site. But it's available here:
https://www.evcforum.net/DataDropsite/TheAuthoritarians.pdf
You can also order the book inexpensively here directly from the publisher, www.lulu.com. On that site, choose Bookstore. Then search for The Authoritarians. You'll find a version for less than $10 plus shipping. Others mark it up more.
You can see a summary of the Jonathan Haidt work online at:
https://moralfoundations.org/
I found his book a bit challenging to read because of his style.
The Albert O. Hirschman book is an intellectual feast, but I'm finding the need to take my time, chew on his thoughts and take notes. I'm through enough of it to recommend it.
The style of The Polarized Mind was quite accessible, but for me it wasn't as densely packed with nuggets of information as the others listed here.
There is a very readable classic that you may find interesting. It's brief and beautifully written. The True Believers by Eric Hoffer.
Very interesting and helpful post!
James, I have found the same so when the other person can't effectively respond, I ask for the lima beans. That shuts them up quickly.
In my family, they are ALL Uncle Bobs, and I am the "Crazy" one who dared defy my Father's demand that I vote for HIS guy (Republican, of course) and voted for Obama. I am staying home with my "furry family" and will enjoy the peace and quiet. :)
Luckily, no Uncle Bob's. Just distance. So, zoom calls, then books and cats.
Maria, peace can be a good Thanksgiving celebration too. I am sorry for your family, though. They are missing a chance to be with an awesome person.
I had an Uncle George in Mississippi who wanted me to vote for George Wallace in 1968. I was quite young then so humored him but voted for Nixon. (Sorry - This was my first time voting and name recognition was all I knew.)
Yeah, who was this Hubert Humphrey guy anyhow. Srsly, I had no idea except Nixon was Eisenhower's VP, so name recognition. Haven't voted for a Republican since. At least I knew who George Wallace was and did not vote for him.
Oof! Sorry you got stuck in a crazy family, Ms. Chamberlain! And despite my family being leftwing, we are doing the same. My aunt is hopefully coming over and my sister is ALREADY here for the week. My two puppies are INSANELY happy.:D
I hear ya'! In my OH hardcore from the Civil War Republican family - what's left of it - >I'm< considered the "Uncle Bob!" They >clearly< don't "get" the irony! On the other hand, in family reunions, out of about 100 who attend, about 5 or 6 of us actually bear my family name!
since i was disowned when i was 15, and ended up homeless as a result, i no longer have an uncle bob, or violent parents, or anyone else like that to deal with. i am in the position where i get to choose my family, and thus, am finally free of physical, intellectual, and psychological violence and cruelty.
It's not easy speaking truth to power, especially at that age. But it's gotta be done to make change. You're strong and you ROCK! Happy Thanksgiving! <3
Girl Scientist, I hope you have a terrific Thanksgiving with all the people who bring you joy and for whom you can be the joy-bringer.
you are always unfailingly kind to me, ruth. thank you for your kind words and thoughts.
GrrlScientist
Creating a new family of people you love and who love you takes guts. Like a neglected plant that grows in the tiny space of a sidewalk crack, your determination to blossom deserves to be celebrated! ❤️
thank you. you are very kind.
I respect the shit out of you! There is just no other way to put it.
Roger, I just got around to reading your comment. I am sorry you had such a callous father. I am glad, however, you kept your own counsel and did what worked for you musically. That is truly a thing to be thankful for, even though there are plenty of folks who will never understand that.
I have largely purged my life of those people who take pride in being maliciously ignorant. I lost patience with the virulent deniers of reality, facts and truth. So, I moved on for the sake of my health and sanity.
@Tom. A few years ago I quit Facebook in order to literally avoid relatives who couldn't hear anything they hadn't heard on right wing radio shows or Faux Noose.
Relentlessly, I will ask him if he supports Hershal Walker, the Republican Senate candidate who held a gun to his girlfriend's head and threatened her life, AND paid for an abortion, and NOW wants to ban abortions, AND has a secret child. OR does he want to do the real RIGHT thing and voice his support for Sen. Warnock, a Man of the Cloth?
I will not let up or stop until Uncle Bob (Tommy) admits that Mr. Walker has NO business representing Republicans, Georgians or even football players in the US Senate. In fact, he should DONATE to the Warnock Campaign to support the best man, AND help save the soul of the Republican Party because if Republicans send Walker to Washington DC, they've reached a NEW LOW because Walker is such a liar, hypocrite, and rotten father and human.
"Uncle Bob, where are your ethics, morals and logic? You cant just sit back and say nothing. That's passively supporting Walker. Do you really want to be like Mitch and put Party before People and Country?"
Fair disclosure: I recently accepted a position to promote democracy (and morality, ethics and logic) in GA. ;-)
Danny, your questioning sounds relentless. Good for you. I am appalled that even the racist Georgians can stand voting for Herschel Walker. He himself knows he is not up to the task, but you know how hard it is for a guy like him to back down. Good luck in your new position in GA. It might be tough but interesting.
In rural Georgia they hate blacks and hate yankees even more.
In the LBJ tapes, one of Lyndon's people explained that they had won every state except MS, AL and GA. To this, LBJ replied, "well, Alabama is too stupid, and Mississippi is the same way. But their ain't no excuse for Georgia."
Haters are everywhere. In general, its unfair and wrong to make broad, sweeping, disparaging statements about any group of people. I'm pretty sure that many, many thousands of rural GA people are fair-minded and not hateful. I'm sure many rural Georgians think Jimmy Carter is a great man, and a real Christian who "walks the talk." President Carter proves that some rural Georgians are wonderful, caring Americans, and the Salt of the Earth.
My grandfather lived in a small, rural Louisiana town. One time my grandfather's best friend told me about when he and my grandfather protested the KKK. So it just goes to show, not everybody in the rural, deep South is an ignorant hater with Yankee issues. The haters that I've met and had issues with end up respecting me because I know all the words to every Lynyrd Skynyrd song. That makes me more Southern than they are. LOL.
Thank you for this addendum.
I think GA is doing pretty well on all those counts, considering its voters saved the country from Trump in the last election.
It is good for the soul of the American nation to have a celebration of unity which is not dependent upon one dominant religious feast.The healing process of family and friends travelling across this country to share a meal and celebrate national unity cannot ever be undervalued. Peace and reconciliation to all Americans from across the Atlantic!
Robert, you do curmudgeon very well!
it's true! were
you actually
Acting?
Many families have their own “Uncle Bob” and some have become estranged from one another (like mine) and still, as bewildered as I am, I cannot understand the hatred that the former occupant of the Peoples House emboldened. My twin never used to be like this. He was light and funny and always loving. (We still get along because) I see these qualities are still there somewhere, and I do not discuss politics with him because I do not want to rock the boat, so to speak. I simply know that my vote cancels out his except for State runs. But he has broken our mothers heart and she laments the loss of her second son even though she puts on a brave face.
Segue… The other elephant in the room - FORGIVENESS…
Happy Thanksgiving Professor Reich… please excuse my absence- I don’t comment much anymore and, simply put, I cannot afford to donate anymore for the time being.
Happy Thanksgiving, Anne!
Thank You ~ Happy Thanksgiving, Laurie! 😊
Great film, Prof. Reich! Many thanks for that! If we all enter the Thanksgiving zone chuckling, good things will come of it. I'm tucking "facts not labels" under my hat for quick access.
I find the choices offered here typically neoliberal and divisive. Where is the option to "find common ground" in an attempt to heal the divisions that pundits and media outlets are capitalizing on foe fun and profit? I talk to Trump supporters every day, primarily in the context of our commoditized and inaccessible health care system, and they all agree wholeheartedly when I point out the reason for its failure is the reason for the failure of most of our institutions eg that both parties are run by much the same monied interests. There is also common ground in the futility of perpetual war, including our current escalation towards nuclear confrontation in our inexplicable proxy war with Russia. There is a lot more common ground, but if the "other" is dehumanized, reduced to a "racist" or a "socialist" or whatever the establishment finds most effective, we will never have the things we need to promote the common good.
Sometimes there is not
"Common Ground"
We found that out dealing with Hitler in WWII
I agree with you, too -- sometimes the hate I see on Twitter and FB is really overwhelming for me as well...
@Barry. There should be an effort to find common ground with our fellow citizens. But you undermine your own credibility when you characterize discussions here as "typical neoliberal" demonstrating that you don't know what that phrase means. Further, when you frame the resistance to Putin's aggression as Biden's proxy war you show yourself to be an ally of Putin and an echo chamber for the misinformation bandied by his agencies and apologists. So I can assure you that we won't be finding common ground while you are willfully putting out propaganda disguised as discussion, anti-American tropes disguised as "insights", and defenses of authoritarianism trying to masquerade as its opposite. It doesn't really matter if you're a citizen or if you're an actor for Russian trolls - your expression here is doing the work of Russian trolls. Won't work...
You're definitely the better person on this blog. Thanks for shining the light to lead us out of the darkness. Such a simple solution and we all missed it. Excuse me... I'm going to move to another pew.
That is not offered as a "solution" just an alternative to the binary thinking that is so easy to ascribe to in our current consolidated media climate.
What a concept. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32INoIBaY0M
THIS is the Exit Plan (Barry's)
America needs: a Common
Enemy -- Corporate, top-
down UN-Elected
Bureaucratic Rule
.
Fealty
to WMDs
manufacturers
and Profiteers of all sorts
.
with Socialism for the Rich and rugged
Individualism for the rest of us.
.
see: Medicare for ALL.
Right church, wrong pew or wrong church , right pew?
both?
@Terry. Brilliant !! And so funny!
Thanks.
both parties are run by much the same monied interests
Let's talk about antitrust enforcement, deficit spending/fiscal policy, and the fact that one party supported Fascism while the other has worked for free and fair elections. Same interests?
@Michael. You are right - the truth is clear in the details.
Yes, thank you. There is a wealth of opinions here but I would caution folks about using fake "uneducated" southern dialect to indicate "stupid" as it really infuriates southerners like me.
Good luck with the "common ground" stuff. My ancestors were Confederate soldiers and overseers on plantations. They were men and women of their time and place. If I could see them now I would not care what their politics were then or now. I would like to ask my great, great grandfather what it was like being a confederate soldier for four long years.
Well I have talked to 10 to 20 Trump supporters a day over the past 6 years in an authentic fashion and almodt all agree that there should be some form of national health care system while both Democrats and Republicans and their media frame it as "socialism" so I am getting further with them than Democratic Party leadership. And all agree that corporate money has turned our government against us.
If it were on a ballot, it would win.
Same with progressive taxation.
But had Trump endorsed it, you'd be saluting der fuhrer.
@James. Yes!
I am long past letting ordinary politeness reign in theses extraordinary times. I won’t knowingly meet with anyone voting not-Dem or holding such positions. Friends and family alike get prefixed with former-, and I am not quiet about why.
My wife and have branches that are racist through and through. Gratefully we are about 900 miles removed from them and will not see them on Thanksgiving. Once upon a time we would all go over the river and through the woods to get together every year, even when we lived in California or Miami. No longer.
My wife has a nephew who is between jobs again this year. Father of three. Had a bitter divorce. Went through alcohol withdrawal. He was valedictorian in his high school class and has a master's in history. But at an early age was probably bullied. Was influenced by Rush Limbaugh. I tried to help him get a position as a teaching assistant, to get into a joint policy/law school program. But he couldn't get along with his advisors, and wrote a published thesis in essence defending Roger B. Taney and his opinion in the Dred Scott case. He helped write racist briefs in some SCOTUS cases involving affirmative action and racial discrimination. Once was an intern to Republicans in the Senate and to the Senate judiciary committee. He was editor of a proprietary newspaper where for 20 years he interviewed mainly "conservative" authors and was widely published. He also is a 2nd Amendment nut and writes articles for gun magazines.
My wife talks to his mother every day. Her son has cowed his parents. I'm sure he tells them how to vote. However they live in Maryland. Probably always support losers.
My sister in law worked in the office of the Commissioner, Social Security Administration. Her son at every chance wrote misinformation against the entire concept. At first he depicted it as a generational battle, later it was depicted as socialism, an unlawful appropriation. Now his kids need Medicaid. His parents, now retired, have been supporting him and the 3 kids. When the child tax credit was in force, those kids generated $900 per month. The kids attend a private all white religious school. The tuition is extremely high. They moved to an all white neighborhood north of Baltimore, too remote to commute to DC where the jobs are.
My brother in law had been the vice president of a liquor company and has a good pension. But I'm sure my wife has been helping them.
I'm sure we are depicted as the enemy: deep state agents who undermine their lifestyle.
This year I'm getting them matching Ravens' jerseys: Number 8, Lamar Jackson. Psy ops.
@Daniel. What an interesting biography, and how well you illustrate the mindset of those who cannot be persuaded by any means. I think it is very important to know that not everyone on the far right are followers; No, some of these folks are the authors of hate, misinformation and racism.
Forget trying to change a fascist into a liberal. They are what they are! If you went to Germany today you would find old Hitler supporters thinking the same way they did back in 1939. They just have to die off and the sooner the better.
I would no longer entertain the company of friends or relatives who would divide our social cohesion. If Uncle Bob showed up in a Confederate uniform he would be under the engagement rules for foreign enemies, not go along to get along.
will he be getting
any Gravy with
his bread and
water?
I would focus on the day, Thanksgiving. How much it has evolved. It is Indigenous Peoples Month. American politics has no business being discussed on Thanksgiving. We can learn much from the indigenous people to respect nature.
Columbus, The Pilgrims were focused on their narrow views on personal wealth and power. We can see what that has gotten us today.
Yeah, Mitch just pumped 14 million dollars into Walker's campaign in a last gasp to institutionalize racism and obstruct progress.
The indigenous people had their politics too. Tribes tried to play English off against French. A tragic dilemma: so many people eager to escape Europe. The tribe in my part of northeast Ohio - the Erie -- had pretty much been exterminated by larger tribes by the time the first White settlers arrived from Connecticut. Conflict appears to be the human condition.
We didn’t see ships of indigenous people sail to Europe and plant a flag and proclaim it as their land. Territorial disputes happen in nature all the time.
Michael Duffy ; Apples and oranges; indigenous people had no ships: different culture. Yes, conquest is a major feature of history. Does not mean it is ok. It's what happened.
when Natives saw ships larger than
Any tree they figured the Newcomers
MUST all be Geniuses. they were Wrong.
see: Uncle Bob
Shake our heads slowly with a little smile on our faces, as one would do humoring an insane person, and ask him to pass the cranberry sauce. We hope.
Well Uncle Bob is not the problem , he is dead at this point. But ever since last year or more correctly the pandemic beginning I’ve been forced deal with friends educated and ignoramuses that think that Fox News Commentators are presenting facts. People with just high school educations are just as recently as Monday night telling me that RNA based vaccines are experimental and not approved by the FDA and they are not getting vaccinated or boosted.
Firstly I’ve had friends an eighty year old with heart issues die from Covid,.
Secondly a cousin a registered nurse fully vaccinated And boosted  of 54 years die as a result of Covid .
Thirdly a former commander of the Largest American Legion in The world die from Covid complications.
Yet the well meaning nutters spout right wing television propaganda on every subject from taxes to inflation to vaccinations as Joe Biden caused events and a Government Plot to take our freedoms.
One intelligent but television indoctrinated citizen informed me that the vast majority of military members were refusing to get Covid vaccinated .
(Actually finally a less than a thousand military forces were separated because of Covid vaccine refusal .
The Science/religion contest goes on while TV commentators Rake in their dollars stirring up the great unwashed to darwinian extinction prizes.
Covid followed the standard pandemic Protocol of the first wave being the most deadly wave in follow one waves of infection were more communicable and less deadly but deadly nonetheless.
Covid has proven we are entitled to our own opinions but we’re not entitled to our own facts. The politicalization of Covid science into political propaganda with the only goal of increasing viewership at the expense of peoples lives is the greatest shame of mass communication in my lifetime
Citizen J

I find it worrisome that people are so frightened of uncertainty that they reject reality. We have so little certainty about COVID, and that’s humbling.
I really enjoyed this. I no longer have a family. But If I did I'm sure there would be an "Uncle Bob". I do remember a conversation with a Trump supporting hardware clerk about a year ago when she revealed that she hadn't gotten a vaccination for COVID and had many weird arguments, like uncle Bob" , against it. After addressing her many arguments, which regardless of the facts was making no impact at all, I finally said what was on my mind. I told her that I didn't care about being right, I just didn't want her to die. I told her that she was the best hardware "guy" I had ever dealt with and that she would be greatly missed. Then something very unexpected happened, she came to tears. A few weeks later she revealed that she had gotten a vaccination. I don't know what actually convinced her, it might have been a family member or someone else. But I like to think that I helped.