What an incredibly thoughtful and enlightened way to approach such a nuanced subject - I love it! Wish those two would get together and create a mini series on American Public Television.
How about bringing representatives to the table? Each side shoud have negotiators.
"Strident defenders of Israel and Palestine both accuse the other side of genocide while also questioning that side’s right to exist. This kind of language can defeat a university—and a democracy. An institution committed to tolerance has no obligation to tolerate intolerant people; an open society will close off threats to the terms of debate themselves."
And likewise they would discuss the millions of Palestinian Christians who live is peace, secure from discrimination by Moslem countries.
And likewise they'd have discussed that Israeli Arabs have civil rights, have their own political party and are members of the government.
First order of business is to get opponents to agree to mediate. The purpose of mediation is to let the parties reach agreement. Most of the time, the exercise becomes a game of "ladders". One party starts at the top, the other at the bottom. They advance rung by rung. Both skip genocide, if it's the first rung. The problem has been that since the Oslo Accords, neither party has agreed to mediate.
Wow. I just watched only one of them. As I always thought. They can't speak up, Hamas would kill them, as they already have with many others. A Palestinian government made up of responsible politicians and not terrorists would be such a good thing for everyone. How to get the good people out of the shadows and into government?
Israel killed thousands and destroyed hundreds of homes and schools and clinics in 2014. Israel is the occupier. They are the prison guards of the world’s biggest open air prison. They like to “mow the lawn” every few years with high tech fighter jets and hell fire missiles provided by the US. But you claim Hamas is really doing that. How? With hang gliders and grenades and rifles? Bombing whole neighborhoods?
Iran's Theocratic Democracy pitted against Israel's Parliamentary Democracy will give birth to a religious war that will soak the sands of the Middle East in the blood of innocents. So, it shall be written, so, it shall be done. Rameses freed the Jews and Moses led them into Cannan, that's how it started, who knows how it will end.
Israel is not a democracy; it's been declared an apartheid state by Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, and numerous smaller groups like American Friends Service Committee (Quakers).
The PA and the PLO for all intents purposes are temporally out of order. The government of the Palestine people will have to redeveloped itself before it can be recognized as a legitimate governing body. Iran is the puppet master, and all the other players bow to its authority. Israel will have to deal with the theocratic rule of Iran. God is coming head-to-head with itself.
It’s a cartoon not real people. The brutal occupation, apartheid, ethnic cleansing, siege of Gaza, genocide has been doing on for decades at the hands of a racist ethno state, Israel.
The Palestinians under Arafat established a secular democracy that grew out of the Onslo Accord in 1993. It included women and Christians. Predictably Israel arrested Arafat and assassinated Rabin who was the PM of Israel at the time. Netanyahu and Sharon and other right wingers felt threaten by the peace developing between Israel and Palestinians which could have very well led to a Palestinian state with international recognition.
I was almost expelled at my university because the school deemed my research writing as anti-Semitic. One of my interviews involved an Israeli student who did not like the increasingly critical nature of my questions. I used to be pro-Israel. To my horror I discovered I had been lied to my whole life. The student accused me of being a skin head who was writ anti-Semitic slogans on the bulletin boards around school. I asked the three professors if they had actually seen this. They wanted to investigate further but I never heard back. There was no anti-Semitic language on the bulletin boards. The Israeli student made it up and tried to get me expelled.
Not at all. I even hired a Jewish vocalist and instrumentalist to join me on my latest album. She brought a Klezmer vibe that was unique and wonderful. Check it out at www.mangonights.bandcamp.com her name is Judith Abrahm. Checkout her bio at www.mangonights.com
Palestinians would have a far different take on some of your comments. For example, Palestinian Christians do not live in peace in Israel. I was in a Zoom session this morning featuring the Reverend Isaac, the Palestinian Lutheran minister who became famous at Christmas time for his nativity of Jesus among the rubble. He made clear that all Palestinians are maltreated by the Israelis, especially under Netanyahu's extreme right wing government, but way before that.
Arab Israelis may have rights on paper, but they are not allowed to vote, have no access to the many bomb shelters there (there are none in Gaza), and are placed in low paid, menial jobs as Israel controls the economy.
Gaza is occupied by Israel de facto because the blockade has turned Gaza into the biggest open air prison in the world. Israelis are the prison guards. Just because prison guards don’t live with inmates and go home at night doesn’t mean they aren’t I in total control of every aspect of the prisoners lives. They are not free. They can not leave. They are occupied.
The Quran calls Jews and Christians “the people of the Book” and as such they are given great respect. Mary is mentioned more times by the Quran than the Bible. It also speaks of Moses, Abraham, Issac, Jesus and others in glowing terms.
500 are sheltering at the Holy Family Catholic Church in northern Gaza. Snipers recently killed a mother and daughter who ventured outside in the courtyard There is a Baptist church and a Greek Orthodox Church but they have been destroyed.
Israel is a threat to Christians if they are Palestinian. The sisters take turns singing the Ava Maria determined to stay to the end and serve the people. We don’t know how long they can hold out. The church has suffered damage from the bombs but no direct hit yet. They have very little food or water and no medical. What would you do if you had to live like that?
Daniel, reaching agreement in the midst of conflict is unrealistic. It is nevertheless necessary to start and maintain dialogue. The alternative is genocide.
By the Arabs, yes. The UN Convention on Genocide says that intention is required to declare genocide. Israel has not declared any intention other than self protection and justice for the terrorists that slaughtered in cold blood women, infants, babies, elderly, disabled and raped women, and took over 200 of them as humans shields.
HAMAS does have the intention of Genocide it is in their 1988 Covenant, and was not repudiated by their 2018 update.
Islam also has the intention of genocide of Jews, it is in the Quran and the hadiths.
You can honestly say with a straight face that Israel is not committing genocide? And that the Arabs are doing it? Look at the statements Israeli ministers are making if you need intent. The ICJ found recently that that Israel is plausibly committing genocide. Who has dropped 30,000 tons of bombs on Gaza (the equivalent of 2 nuclear bombs)? Who has cut off water, food, electricity, medical supplies to a civilian population that is now starving? Half of whom are children. Who has dropped white phosphorus on a densely populated area? Who has bombed hospitals, schools, residential buildings? Who bombs Palestinians in the south after it told them to move there? The Arabs? Israel's war crimes are innumerable.
Israel could have taken a different approach to Oct. 7 by doing targeted assassinations rather than going after the entire population of Gaza. It has killed far more civilians than Hamas. Its end game is not Hamas but ethnic cleansing of Gaza to steal the land for Israel.
By the way Israel was warned and aware of the Oct. 7 attacks months before they happened. It was a false flag, allowed to happen to achieve the objective of annexing Gaza to Israel.
You are also incorrect about the Hamas 2018 covenant which says it is not against the Jewish faith but Jewish appropriation of Palestinian land and subjugation and oppression of its people.
Spare me the heart wrenching emotionalism please. Yes I can say with a straight face that Israel is not committing genocide.
Do you even know what genocide is? Apparently not, it is just a scare word that you and others throw around for propaganda effect.
It is impossible for anyone to genocide Arabs or Muslims, and genocide according to the UN covenant requires Intent, and Israel has no intent on genociding (wiping off the face of the earth) Arabs, on the other hand HAMAS does, it is in their covenant, and Islam does, (Jews) it is in their sacred text.
The Quran honors Jews and Christian’s as “People of the Book”. Mary is mentioned more times in the Quran than the Bible. It also honors Moses, Abraham, Jacob, Issac and Jesus.
Hamas seeks to end the ethno Zionist state not Jews. It’s part of their religion to accept Jews and Christians who they believe are worshipping the same God.
Quran does not honor peoples of the book. I told you that I have studied the Quran,hadiths and the biogrpahhy of Muhammad by ibn Ishaq.
What Islam does, it allows "peoples of the book" to live among them and practice their religion (not so for atheists and poltheists - Hindus) which must convert or lose their heads, if and only if peoples of the book pay the jizzyah (poll tax) and live as dhimmi's (secondclass citizens)
Mary or Miriyam as called in the Quran is not mentioned more times than Mary in the Bible,and even if so,it is irrelevant and proves nothing. If you read the Quran carefully,without blinders or being told what to think, you will see that the angel Gabri el, appears to Miriyam as the handsomest man, and the only thing that can be drawn from that encounter is that he coupled with Miriyam, and Issa (or Jesus) was the result.
TheQuran denies that Issa is the son of god, only a prophet, and Muhammad was the last prophet, superceding Issa.
The Quran does not honor Moses,Abraham, Jacob, Isaac and Jesus, it considers them prophets and the last and greatest prophet is Muhammad,And they don't consider Isaac a prophet either. Isaac is suppose to be the ancestors of the Jews, his brother Ishmael is suppose to be the ancestor of the Arabs well the Northern Arab anyway).
And Allahi s not the god of the Jews and Christians, Allah is a contraction of al Lihah,or the Moon god, that the Arabs worshiped in pre Muhammad times the Jahiluyyah.
In those days the Arabs worshiped the mon and Venus (al Uzza) as the morning star, they worship a meteorite they believe is part of the moon,by making a pilgrimage (haj) to it in Mecca and circumnavigate it, encased in the black cube, called the Qaba.
For proof I offer only the the new moon you see on many Muslim flags (like Turkey) and on top of Mosques and the star representing Venus.
Muslims would have you believe that all the Abrahamic religions worship the same god, but Is;am was made up of Jewish and Christian beliefs, after the Arabs flew out of the desert with their swords and conquered the extant Greco Roman Empire.
What an inferiority complex they had as well. Where the Jews had a six pointed star, the Arabs had to have an 8 pointed star, always one upping the Jews and Christians,
Suggestion for you Sue. Stop going to your Arab friends for advice as to how to counter my argument and facts. I am ahead of you.
A Muslim called me a murtadd. (apostate) because in their mind's eye, anyone who has studied the Quran and Haddiths has to be a Muslim (by default) ergo I am an apostate.
Ask your friends about that ridiculous midnight ride of Muhammad, on the back of a chimera beast, body of a horse, wings of an eagle, head of a human, to Jerusalem where it launched itself on a rock into the heavens, where Mo passed through the seven levels of heaven (seven planes) and dickered with ally,with the help of Abraham, for five daily prayers, "jewing" him down from 500 to 50 then to 5.
If they tell you that it was only a dream, then why revere the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem, upon which is the imprint of a dinosaur, which Muslims believe isthe imprint of this chimera beast.
The Hamas 2017 charter update makes it clear that the fight for Palestinian freedom is not against Jews or Israel only the Zionist rulers who have hijacked the country. Their charter is public. Look it up. It’s under article 15 and 16. It’s not calling for the annihilation of Jews.
It is the 2018 Charter and it is only revised, but it does not refute the 1988 Charter. I know that you are going to your Arab friends for advice as to how to respons to this kufr.
Again the 2018 revision does not refute the 1988 Covenant.
You aren't familiar with the word taqiyyah, it is roughly translated obfuscation. Muslims are forbidden to lie to save their own skin, but are required to lie and obfuscate, on the punishment of eternal damnation, to protect Islam.
@Daniel Solomon, I fear that Israel will not survive to 2048 unless the financing of Iran is strictly regulated, a Palestinian state is created, and the nuclear race is stopped. A few other factors we can discuss off line.
Human behavior is threatening their own species. We are now living in the anthropocene, it started in the 1950's, were man started to make an impact on the environment, the holocene was the ice age, where ice made an impact on the environment. The holocene lasted tens of thousands of years, the anthropocene might not make it to the 21st Century.
That will put an end to all of his human bickering, belief, greed, hatred, fear, anguish and angst.
Iran is already sanctioned by the West so it has opened up trade with the Global South: Saudi Arabia, China, Russia etc to fill the gap. All Israel has to do is stop the genocide and withdraw from Gaza and then the attacks by Hezbollah and Houthis etc will stop. It will stop attacks on US military bases and stop the march to a catastrophic regional war or WW3.
Thanks, I know I follow it, and it is brutally repressed by the mullahs. It has nothing to do with the hijab or modesty, and everything to do with power of men over women, the patriarchy.
The Palestinians are not allowed to have a peace movement. The Great March in Gaza resulted in Israelis firing into the crowd as they engaged in non-violent peaceful protest. They are occupied. They are in an open air prison. Palestinians have no say. If they want to live they have to put their heads down and shut up. How can they have a peace movement under siege and occupation?
Israel does have an organized peace movement which is allowed (although not so much now) Only the Israeli people can stop the occupation. They have all the power as the occupying force. Palestinians have no power.
Excellent idea, but I'm not pro-Israel, but when one people voted in Hamas to run Gaza, and 78% support the Hamas Oct 7th slaughter. . maybe that side can't find any reasonable negotiators? When the entire population wants the complete distruction of the other, . . not a lot of room for negotition.
Hamas brokered a cease fire with Israel on May 2021 but Israel violated the terms several times over 2022 and 2023. Israel promised not to attack and harass the unarmed worshippers at he Al Aqsa Mosque on Ramadan. This is the third most holy site in Islam. That is why the attack was called “the Al Aqsa Flood”. Hamas repeatedly warned Israel that a military response would come. What did they expect?
Seriously, Sue??!!! You either a anti-semite or just plain biggoted, not to see the perspective of all this. And to insult peoples intelligence and the deaths of 1200 men, women, and children, that their deaths were "warned" all because according to Sue "Israel promised not to attack/harass unarmed worshippers at Al Aqsa Mosgue on Ramadan," and Sue alleges this is a "violation!" of the 2021 ceasefire agreement. wow. . just. . wow. You, Sue, "JUSTIFIES" the slaughter of t 1200 innocent Israeli citizens, the rape and murder of women, the slaughter and decapitation. . based on a "violation of a cease fire agreement 3 years ago, and alleged attack/harassment of Palestinian worshipers at Al Aqsa Mosque. I could give a flying you-know-what what is "most holy". . but what is truly sacred. . is the lives of innocent people, particularly women children. . TARGET by Hamas terrorists, because Sue feels they had some . . "right to pull off this slaughter?" Your recognition of history seems to be very . . "selective?" What happened at Al Aqsa mosque was not a slaughter, and the "harrassment" was generated by Palestininans refusing to leave, etc. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Al-Aqsa_clashes#:~:text=Since%20the%20beginning%20of%20Ramadan,evict%20worshippers%20nightly%20over%20Ramadan.
this should be an ongoing (and in all cultural conflicts ... Hatfields/McCoys) process. If I recall, that is what Yassar Arrafat came to the table to try so many years ago. But it has to be ongoing, to soften the blatant hatred that keeps cropping up.
That’s because the world sees through the Israeli propaganda. They can no longer hide the truth, not with social media, internet, YouTube, cell phones do available worldwide
Thank you very much for this beautiful essay about these two thoughtful people. I will print it so that I can return to it, and will reread it, I am sure, so that I can take time to think through this complex, painful situation in a sane, grounded, respectful way. This essay is a gift. I am grateful.
Hello Donna-thank you for writing your appreciation for an essay that makes me long to take their class. I wonder if they made videos of the classes as Dr. Reich did with his Wealth and Poverty class? Such classes/videos need to be seen by as much of the world as possible. We all need to know better how to think and reason with compassion, fellow feeling and love.
Stephanie, What a wonderful idea! Because of your prompt, I took a more careful look at the piece and see that there is a link right at the beginning to Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=om2FmYGfN7o It is called Second Discussion on the Horrific Events Unfolding in Israel and Gaza taped October 12, 2023 indicating that Dartmouth appreciates how important it is for a wider audience to hear them.
Who is "They" in this instance that you refer too ?
Don Klemencic wrote : " also hope they will collaborate to produce a book or book series that might become the standard reference for scholarship in this area. ".
I was referring to Bernard Avishai and Ezzedine Fishere. (Avishai was Robert Reich's guest writer, who identified Fishere as his teaching collaborator.)
This was (past tense) published in the New Yorker (Magazine) February 2nd [2024].
If you google "Naqba, Black scholars who have put Ferguson next to Gaza "
You will find the original publication of the article. Verbatim*.
You can save yourself a lot of printer paper and ink that way if you go to (for example) a Barnes and Nobel and buy the New Yorker (magazine).
I had to read it on my cell phone as the New Yorker Magazine "Thinks" that I have looked at too many articles from them - (on line) when in fact I haven't at all.
I had to double check and double read the article on my cell phone.
I would caution that a third "Tilt " of the "Crystal" / prism might reveal a more e-clease-e-astical version of the John variety.
* Raises an interesting point that WHO has the original copyright and what are the restrictions on an opinion piece and ownership that claims provenance from a "Letter" ?
Not sure how "Bob" fits into this picture exactly - if at all.
Two state solution: all the religious crazies including about 2 million orthodox jews and some number of Muslim total believers who live in Palestine will be one state. The other state will be modern sensible NON god-fearing adults. All three major religions WORSHIP one god. All non believers ignore the obvious hoax.
Nice, unfortunately the Religous crazies will burn in a great civil war. But the non-believers could have a similar problem, where some believe in survival of the fittest, while others believe people should cooperate.
Israel has an absolute right to exist. Hamas has to go but regular Palestinians need to be allowed to live. My fear is the way Netanyahu waged war has created a new generation of enemies for his children and grandchildren. I don’t see much chance for peace for at least two generations.
Was that a comment to self? Not one comment of yours in this thread sounds like a well thought out adult argument. If this was a “war on Hamas” why had Israel killed hundreds of Palestinians in the West Bank *before* Oct 7th? Why has Israel taken hostage over 3000+ Palestinians including children IN the West Bank SINCE Oct 7th? Have you considered there wouldn’t be Hamas if there were no occupation?
My fear is that after slaughtering nearly 30,00 Palestinians Israel has made enemies that can never become friends. What would you feel about a group of people that purposely killed your whole family?
Richard with one important distinction. A Jewish proverb. If you save one life, you save the world. Netanyahu is more interested in saving his own life in preference to the hostages.
I agree with you. BiBi is very much like Donald Trump. He cares about himself and staying out of jail. He failed tragically to do the one thing the citizens required of him - to keep them safe. And, he is not being strategic in his response. Biden tried to convince him not to do what we did after 9/11, and he went ahead and did it anyway, turning much of the world against not only Israel, but Jews the world over. He's more interested in power than any real solutions.
That’s why the IDF killed almost half the people on 10/7. It’s Israel’s policy to kill hostages along with militants to avoid having to negotiate their release
You will never "deradicalize" Palestinians by murdering them and their families by the thousands, starving them, destroying their homeland, and driving them out of it. Israel's actions show it is not after Hamas, but the civilian population of Gaza, as far more civilians have been killed than Hamas. Its end game is the annexation of an ethnically cleansed Gaza.
Your analogy to Germany and Japan is inept. The US never tried to exterminate almost the entire population of either country in order to annex the emptied land into the US. The Germans and Japanese kept both their land and their homes.
If the land belongs to Israel then annex the occupied territories and give Palestinians equal rights. why occupy the West Bank and Gaza? Why decades of apartheid rule?
The Arabs want the world to think that this is a secular conflict, and it is isn't, not from the Muslim point of view, it is religious, that is why they started the war in 1948.
Muslims lived in peace with Jews and Christians for 2,000 years. But then the British started the divisions in 1917 declaring Palestine to be the eventual home of the Jews even though it was 95% Muslim Palestinians at the time. Of course that caused great anger and fear. Their worst fesrs came true in 1948 with 750,000 ethnically cleansed and thousands killed, tortured and raped. Israeli students aren’t taught this history. They really don’t know.
It was Israel who refused a two-state solution every time. And year-by-year, the Arabs/Muslims were blamed - and still are. If Israel had wanted a 2SS, it would not have slaughtered Palestinians and created a nukba in 1948 and every "Operation XXX" thereafter.
Wow, you have this so backwards it is hard for me to believe you are not deliberately denying the truth but I'll be nice and say you are just very ignorant of the facts. Why did they attack Israel between 1948 and 1967 when it was not Israel occupying the land they claimed they wanted for a state but Egypt and Jordan…. If what they wanted was Gaza and the West Bank as they claim, why were they attacking Israel who was not occupying them but Jordan and Egypt? The reality is that for the Palestinian Authority it is not about an independent Palestinian state but about destroying Israel.
Why did they attack Israel between 1948 and 1967 when it was not Israel occupying the land they claimed they wanted for a state but Egypt and Jordan…. If what they wanted was Gaza and the West Bank as they claim, why were they attacking Israel who was not occupying them but Jordan and Egypt? The reality is that for the Palestinian Authority it is not about an independent Palestinian state but about destroying Israel.
1937 - Partition was offered by the British and rejected by the Arabs, leading to violence and the massacre of Jews in Tiberias.
1947 - Partition was offered by the United Nations and rejected by the Arabs, leading to civil war, Arab armies invading Israel and 6000+ Jews being killed.
1949–1967 - An independent state was offered to the Palestinians and they ignored it. Terrorist attacks increased in Israel and the PLO was created.
1993–2001- Two states were offered by Israel and rejected by Palestinians leading to the Second Intifada and 1000+ Israelis being murdered.
2005 - Israel withdrew from Gaza. Instead of creating a prosperous fledgling independent Palestinian territory, Hamas took control of the region and sent 1000s of rockets into Israel.
2008 - Two states were offered by Israel but rejected by the Palestinians. What followed was sporadic violence and terror.
Since 2008, there haven’t been arranged talks to establish a Palestinian state because of a lack of faith in the Palestinians’ willingness to cooperate and negotiate in the pursuit of peace.
Nerak, I've posted Israeli history many times on this thread as you have, but Jew hatred is in Mary's DNA. It's one thing to support the Palestinians; it's another to purposely spread the poison of hate as Mary and her like minded friends have.
They did not. Did you have to turn yourself into a pretzel to come up with that response. I guess, in your opinion, they were supposed to ignore the 6000 massed around its borders and accept another 10/7 disaster.
Mary, you must be living on another planet, using false arguments that can be dismissed by anyone who has the capacity to read and view the videos confirmed by US Intelligence.
Even if I knew nothing about the history of the region, which simply isn't true, the documents are out there. You could look for them yourself you wanted to.
‘Our movement is maximalist. Even all of Palestine is not our final goal’ Ben Gurion
“In the wake of the establishment of the state,we will abolish partition and expand to the whole of Palestine.” Also Ben Gurion.
You can also perhaps read Benny Morris, he goes into it in some great detail quoting from the actual documents. But make sure you get his book that was written before the death threats.
Having said that, I'm not your mother – do your own research. You wouldn't trust any source I gave you anyway because you are immune to evidence.
Israeli history books doesn’t cover much before 1950 do they don’t know much about the Naqba of 1947-1948 when Israelis perpetrated ethnic cleansing of 750,000 and massacred thousands of Palestinians.
Yes in 1917 the British declared Palestine to be the future homeland for the Jews. The only problem, Palestine was 95% Arab at the time. Naturally the Palestinians were very alarmed and scared wondering if my land is going to be the future homeland for the Jews, what’s in store for our future??!! Their worst fears were realized in 1948 when 750,000 were ethnically cleansed and thousands killed, tortured and raped.
It's the other way around, Marjorie. Jews bought thousands of miles of land at the time. The Arab sheiks were only to glad to get rid of the swamp land they thought was worthless. The Jewish National Fund still holds the deeds to the land. If you know the history of the area you also know it was Chaim Weitzman, a leading world class scientist at the time, who realized that Jews could not exist in Europe safely. He influenced Lord Rothchild to speak to his friend Lord Balfour in England to establish a safe haven for Jews in their biblical homeland Palestine. Hence, the Balfour Declaration in 1915. Fast forward to WWI. Churchill needed Weitzman's scientific knowledge to win WWI. Weitzman invented Acetone, a leading contributor to winning the war. Churchill brokered a deal with Abdullah and Weitzman. Abdullah received 80% of the land that is called Palestine and the Jews received 20%. The lion's share went to Jordan. Israel has fought 4 major wars and 13 operations to hang on to less than its 20%. Israel is now the size of Connecticut.
Have you been looking at Israeli history sources? Look at multiple sources. I used to be pro-Israel but After studying the Israel/Palestinian conflict on a university level, if Israeli sources say it’s raining outside, go to the window and look.
You would do well to read something other than Iran's propaganda and Linda Sarsour, Rashida Tlaib and Ilan Omar's over the top proclamations. You are just an echo chamber for those that spend their hours like tRump coming up with QANON conspiracy theories. Sue, you even put them to shame. Talk about sycophants.
Sue, your university level conclusions come directly from Qatar who is the largest foreign donor to American higher learning institutions. They donated more than 4 billion dollars to institutions like Harvard and Columbia. They represent the Moslem Brotherhood, an antisemitic organization who have in their charter the elimination of Israel. The recent attacks on Jewish students didn't come out of no where. They were planned and coordinated in Qatar! Yes, they are chief negotiators for the release of Israeli hostages, but don't be fooled by their educational contributions. The brains behind the 10/7 attack are sitting in Qatar. They have a trillion dollars in assets.
I doubt you know my politics, and I doubt you are interested in them or in those of anyone on here who doesn't agree with you. If it amuses you, keep on talking to yourself.
Keep in mind that most Israelis conveniently are not taught much of their history before 1950. Students are indoctrinated with anti-Palestinian propaganda at a very young age. They don’t know many Palestinians if at all.
Sue, once again the info. you provide is much like tRumps full of lies. Is that why they have a Virtual Jewish Library? In 2018, the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, or OECD, placed Israel as the third most educated country worldwide, only below Canada and Japan. "In Israel, 88 percent of adults aged 25-64 have completed upper secondary education, higher than the OECD average of 79 percent," the OECD found.
Richard, Guerilla Surgeon, Eddie, Maureen, et al-I am in tears right now. I am a Jew. All but 7 of my mother’s family died in the holocaust. I am broken hearted by the death and destruction and the killing words from both sides of this war. We can all look up, read, see, and hear all the facts/data, from past and present, that all of you have detailed here. I don’t doubt that they all are there. However, all that we are doing is fighting this Israeli/Hamas war here in Dr. Reich’s, and our, forum. STOP IT!! I agree with what the two Dartmouth professors are doing. We need to be thinking and reasoning with fellow feeling and compassion. We need to stop this dueling with words which, contrary to the old saying, do hurt. ENOUGH! Let’s talk about the essay. Let’s find out more. Let’s ask how we can do what they are doing to, at least, arrive at understanding if not agreement.
DR. REICH, is there any way we could connect with those two insightful professors? Zoom conference, maybe? Any way to hear more? Please.
In 1947 The UN gave 55% of land to the Zionists even though they were only 25% of the population. Many 100% Palestinian villages were assigned to Israel. The Palestinians were not even included in the UN talks. The best farmland and water resources were given to Israel.
If you were Palestinian would you agree to that deal??!!
Once again Sue your insistence on misstating the facts only surpasses your ignorance of Israeli history. Israel received 20% and Jordan received 89% of the land in question.
I understand that the United States is a partner in this Genocide . I wonder how many millions of Americans we could help here in our own country either the Billions of Dollars we are spending to KILL INNOCENT PEOPLE. And the Thousands of CHILDREN WERE ARE MURDERING? ☮️
The UN set up a phony state for the Arabs. Although 75% of the population, the Arabs only got 45% of the land. Israel got 55% and the best agricultural land land and water resources. Many 100% Arab villages were given to the Israeli Zionists. If you were an Arab, would you agree to that? The UN didn't even include the Palestenians in the talks when making the partition. The partition was for the benefit of the West, to plop the Western cat's paw (Israel) in the region to control trade and to maintain a giant western military base in the Middle East.
Absolutely wrong Sue. The Arabs got 80% and the Jews got 20%. Jordan got the lion's share of the land. It was brokered during WWI by Churchill, Abdullah and the Jews. http://www.kinghussein.gov.jo/his_transjordan.html
It wasn't the UN that set up a phony state. Your words not mine. It was all of the allied nations. In your opinion, all the treaties signed by our allies and the US from WWI and II should be null and void. be null and void.
Of course the Palestinians didn't go along with it. Israel intended to take over 50% of the land that once belonged to Palestinians. They now control even more of it and have already stated that they intend to own everything from the river to the sea. If you were Palestinian would you have gone along with it?
Also the term “collateral damage” is repugnant. It’s dehumanizing and whenever I hear it used, especially by the military, I think of the word excuse.
It denies the basic fact that no matter which side of the fence we as humans fight on, both sides always seem to feel justified, somehow.
After all the smoke is cleared and all the treaties agreed upon, we as humans just start another justified war—sometimes 2 maybe 3 wars at once since we fought the 2 World Wars.
People are executed if they refuse to fight during times of war. And we have an economy largely based on war. There are wars promoted and supported by the businesses and world corporations that profit from war in every way, and the various politicians who promote and force people to participate.
There are fewer and fewer places to escape in the world from war, and God help the ones who find themselves stuck in the middle of them, and we just keep creating more powerful bombs to supposedly end war.
War is legalized murder—always has been and always will be. The rage that is so apparent is caused from identifying with one side or the other, but they’re all human beings. They are not collateral damage.
The Israeli/Palestinian conflict was started by Britain in 1917 under the Balfour Declaration. This declared that Palestine would be a Jewish state. Before that Jews and Palestinians lived in peace for 2,000 years, from 600 A.D. to 1917. Before 1917 the British promised it to the Palestinians in exchange for joining them to fight the Ottomans in WW1. Of course the Arabs felt betrayed and were very afraid of being displaced or killed if Israel became a state. And that's what happen. 750,000 Palestinians were ethnically cleansed in 1948 and thousands murdered, tortured (flamethrowers) stripped and dehumanized and raped.
Thanks for commenting. It makes me wonder how we overcome primordial feelings of threat to selves, our families, our tribes. I question the prideful incompetence of those powerful "leaders" who would bring "civilization" to an area where people already coexist. Amazing how a small group of powerful men create chaos, strife, dis-ease and turbulence within a territory by setting up artificial political boundaries. Is it one group feeling superior, feeling the need to compete instead of share--to spread rumor instead of understanding?
Your version of this is nauseating. Have you visited lately? Or does michigan use fox newz for their information. Your version of history needs a review
What will happen to the people living in Gaza if everything is destroyed? The Marshal Plan was instituted in Europe and Japan after the war so that poverty would not lead to fascism again. That led to peace for decades. Now Germany and Japan are democratic prosperous allies. The same thing needs to be done for a prosperous and democratic Palestine.
refugees in Gaza are not allowed to move anywhere. They are trapped. Gaza is know as the world's biggest open air prison. Israel controls who gets in and who gets out because they are the occupiers of Gaza. They have barricaded on all sides for 17 years. Israel does not allow other Arab countries in except for small shipments of aid. That way Israel doesn't have to pay for their occupation.
The PLO accepted the existence of the state of Israel 35 years ago but what did it get them? More occupation, apartheid, ethnic cleansing and genocide.
In your illustration Cuba would have to be surrounded and barricaded from all sides, an open air prison created by the US, an occupation. To be comparable the US would be controlling the water, food, electricity, travel, medicine, banning building supplies while at the same time bombing Cuba every couple of years to "mow the grass" meaning cut down the population. Now imagine that the US and Cuba had a cease fire agreement that:
1. US had to stop the bombing and in return Cuba would stop the rockets into FL.
2. US would be required to stop attacks of unarmed worshipers at their holy places on Easter.
Now back to real time 10/7. The attack was called the Al Aqsa Flood. This was because the last cease fire agreement in May 2021 required Israel to:
1. withdraw from the Al Aqsa Mosque and stop attacking and arresting unarmed worshippers at the holy site on Rammandon.
2. stop bombing Gaza
Israel returned and repeated the desecration of the Al Aqsa Mosque in 2022 and 2023. Hamas warned Israel repeatedly that there would be consequenses for violating the 2021 ceasefire agreement. What did Israel expect?
Hamas is justified as an occupied people to resist according to international law. Israel was justified in killing the resistance fighters who came over their borders on 10/7 but not commit collective punishment and genocide on the occupied people across their borders.
Your “obvious “ answer will never work, because while trying to destroy Hamas most of the casualties are ordinary Palestinian civilians, which will ultimately just breed more hatred against Israel.
Very cavalier answer. Israelis are killing far more civilians than Hamas. Most of the victims are women and children, which constitutes war crimes. Israelis are just so despicable.
The IDF raided the Al Aqsa mosque repeatedly, killing people at prayer. In your eyes that's probably better than defacing artifacts.
Richard, violence did not end WWI; it set the stage instead for the triumph of Communism, Fascism, WWII, and the Holocaust. Wars seldom end with peace treaties; they are often followed by more wars, and even genocide.
Israel was created as a ethno-state, for Jews only. An ethno-state is not a democracy. A democracy maintains that all people are created equal. Israel therefore must ethnically cleanse and/or kill the "enemy" in this case non-Jews to have a racially pure superior race, or master race or as the Zionists call it, God's chosen people. Invariably this leads to the logical "Final Solution" - genocide.
How did that work for Hitler? Did it bring about peace? Or war? Now we are on the brink of WW3.
Your last statement is patently false. 75 years of brutal Israeli occupation and subjugation are what provoked Arab attacks. Jewish Voice for Peace has put out a timeline of the events leading up to the Oct. 7 attacks which makes for interesting reading.
Israel's savagery is on full display in its current action in Gaza
Sue, using the word genocide loosely, and altering your figures to support your arguments sway no one with any understanding of the current situation Israel faces now. If you took as much time to invest inyour unfounded defense of the Palestinian cause as you also neglect to do when viewing the operation that Israel was placed in confronting, you might learn to be more tolerant.
Now Hamas is back in the north after Israel declared it eradicated. If Israel has the right of self-defence so does Hamas, after all they are the occupied party for 17 years. Israel is in violation of international law since 1948.
Does Gaza really have autonomy when it is barricaded on all sides? They don't control their water, food imports, medicine, no building materials are allowed in even though Israel has been bombing them off and on for 17 years. Their airport was destroyed, their sea port was destroyed, their economy destroyed. How is that an autonomous state???!! Thats an occupied state.
In your illustration Cuba would have to be surrounded and barricaded from all sides, an open air prison created by the US, an occupation. To be comparable the US would be controlling the water, food, electricity, travel, medicine, banning building supplies while at the same time bombing Cuba every couple of years to "mow the grass" meaning cut down the population. Now imagine that the US and Cuba had a cease fire agreement that:
1. US had to stop the bombing and in return Cuba would stop the rockets into FL.
2. US would be required to stop attacks of unarmed worshipers at their holy places on Easter.
Now back to real time 10/7. The attack was called the Al Aqsa Flood. This was because the last cease fire agreement in May 2021 required Israel to:
1. withdraw from the Al Aqsa Mosque and stop attacking and arresting unarmed worshippers at the holy site on Rammandon.
2. stop bombing Gaza
Israel returned and repeated the desecration of the Al Aqsa Mosque in 2022 and 2023. Hamas warned Israel repeatedly that there would be consequenses for violating the 2021 ceasefire agreement. What did Israel expect?
Hamas is justified as an occupied people to resist according to international law. Israel was justified in killing the resistance fighters who came over their borders on 10/7 but not commit collective punishment and genocide on the occupied people across their borders.
So you believe deradicalization will occur when genocide and ethnic cleansing is used against unarmed women and children? How would you feel if it was you and your family? Would you start loving Israel and the US?
They throw rocks because the Israeli police are not supposed to be there interfering with unarmed worshippers on the holy month of Ramadan. Does throwing rocks deserve indefinite detention of women and children and death by genocide? The police are protected head to toe and carry military assault weapons. Its Goliath against David, literally. David used a slingshot just as the Palestinians do. In the current situation rock throwing is symbolic resistance since the police are shielded head to toe. No injuries are sustained because of it.
The Al Aqsa Mosque is under the independent administration of the Jerusalem Waqf not Israel. Israeli police and/or military is not allowed on the compound. The Israeli police action was also in violation of the Israel/Hamas ceasefire agreement in May 2021. Israel violated the ceasefire several times over a two year period. Hamas therefore had a right, even a duty, to strike back. As you point out, self-defence and war go hand in hand. Whats good for the gander is good for the goose. Maybe the US should have stepped in and reigned Israel in when they repeatedly violated the 2021 ceasefire. Hamas repeatedly warned Israel and the international community that they would respond militarily. Hamas gave two years warning before striking back.
You have a singular point of view that proves the point of the original article. It has nothing to do with naïveté. It is simply one sides inability to see beyond their own point of view and hatred and history. The inability to see government Zionism as distinctly different than an Israeli and Hamas as distinctly different than a Palestinian. Your hatred and anger cannot be hidden behind the words you use not the supposed examples you use.
In your illustration Cuba would have to be surrounded and barricaded from all sides, an open air prison created by the US, an occupation. To be comparable the US would be controlling the water, food, electricity, travel, medicine, banning building supplies while at the same time bombing Cuba every couple of years to "mow the grass" meaning cut down the population. Now imagine that the US and Cuba had a cease fire agreement that:
1. US had to stop the bombing and in return Cuba would stop the rockets into FL.
2. US would be required to stop attacks of unarmed worshipers at their holy places on Easter.
Now back to real time 10/7. The attack was called the Al Aqsa Flood. This was because the last cease fire agreement in May 2021 required Israel to:
1. withdraw from the Al Aqsa Mosque and stop attacking and arresting unarmed worshippers at the holy site on Rammandon.
2. stop bombing Gaza
Israel returned and repeated the desecration of the Al Aqsa Mosque in 2022 and 2023. Hamas warned Israel repeatedly that there would be consequenses for violating the 2021 ceasefire agreement. What did Israel expect?
Hamas is justified as an occupied people to resist according to international law. Israel was justified in killing the resistance fighters who came over their borders on 10/7 but not commit collective punishment and genocide on the occupied people across their borders.
The atrocities that we and our Allie’s committed during WW II is no justification for what Israel is doing in Gaza. Stop trying to justify Israel’s war crimes.
Makes me wish I were a student at Dartmouth! This is a good way for many divergent thoughts to have thoughtful discussions not the usual I am right and you are wrong. Neither side is right or wrong. Getting into the core documents helps set the scene more realistically. Thank you for posting this.
How wonderful to know that such a class is being taught. Having spent a good deal of time in the last few months reading everything I can find about the history of the Mandate and the post 1948 period as well as some contemporary literary pieces, I have come to see how complex the issues in this region are and, as your colleague puts it, how actors could not have the benefit of hindsight in understanding ramifications of their acts. I don't know what the solution ultimately will or can be but I am encouraged that civil discourse regarding the underlying issues is occurring somewhere on the planet.
Look, Richard, everyone on here has heard the Zionist/Likud/Jewish National Front party line ad nauseam and the Hamas/PLO party line ad nauseam. If nothing else, they are boring--and totally inappropriate in response to a thoughtful, nuanced essay like this. If you have nothing new or thoughtful to say, even if it's just new to you, why don't you just save yourself some time and aggravation and watch TV or go for a walk instead of boiler-plating in the same-old, same-old? You can assume we know it.
No it isn't Maureen. I have been a subscriber for a number of years. This thread is the first time I've seen people I respect come out in defense of Israel. Usually, we get a lot of Israel has the right to defend itself followed by with two hands tied behind their back.
Hamas hides in their tunnels until an opportunity presents itself for them to kill, torture, and kidnap Israelis. Then they melt back into the communities that they claim to represent. They hide their weapons and fire their missiles from within these communities drawing the fire of the Israeli military. As long as the people allow themselves to be lead by Hamas, there will never be peace. Hamas is committed to the destruction of Israel.
Israel will never eliminate Hamas. They will however destroy the Gaza homeland making it impossible for any Palestinian survivors to return home. Then Israel can occupy the land and ask the US to help rebuild.
We are missing the economics. Please help here! How did Iran provide the huge economy to build such structurally complicated tunnels along with all the weapons for Hamas. How could the “religious “ leadership of Iran justify Islamic terrorists of Hamas set up communities of 50% Islamic children to be used as a shield against Israeli retaliation. Where is the Iranian investment needed to build healthy Palestinian communities??? It’s being used to foil the growth of American economic partnerships in the area.
This is beautiful, and a tiny beacon of hope. The core essence is this sentence: “For protracted conflicts like the Arab-Israeli one,” Ezzedine reflected, “blame is a waste of time. The key is to understand, not justify, why people behave the way they do..."
And with understanding the issues, one may progress to seeing those issues from the nominal opponent's perspective, and that is the foundation on which reconciliation or lasting compromise can be built.
Blame was assigned at the Nuenberg trials. Justice is needed. This is not a "both are to blame". Hitler and the Jews were not a both sides problem. The Nazis at the Charlottesville rally was not "good people on both sides". Zionism is the flip side of the same racist, fascist coin. The other side of the coin is Nazism. One believes the Aryan White race is the superior race. The other believes the Jews are the superior race, God's chosen people. This ideology makes the other sub-human and deserving of genocide.
Sue, your comment is a little confusing to me. First, the actions judged ("blamed" is hardly a relevant word) at Nuremberg were not part of a "protracted conflict"; they were part of a blitzkrieg against humanity, which was brought to a swift (on the scale of international events) conclusion, and deterrence was the goal, not getting an edge in a protracted conflict.
Second, it isn't clear what ideology you're referring to in the final sentence. It seems like you're saying that belief in "superior races" will only lead to destructive consequences (even to include genocide), and I believe that is absolutely true. So maybe we're agreeing; I just can't tell for sure.
I know there are a few prominent Israeli politicians who espouse what is effectively a mirror image of the "superior race" vendetta of the Nazis (I read about them in Haaretz, which I subscribe to). Fortunately, they are not really the majority. Netanyahu was brought to power by superficial electorate thinking which wanted a strongman to quickly deal with troublesome Arabs without going through the hard work of negotiations (such as Yitzhak Rabin did). These Arabs are not Nazis; they are people who feel aggrieved at the harm done to their ancestors and the loss of their land. That grievance may appear huge or negligible according to perspective, but good-faith negotiation has a chance with it. Only if it's good faith.
Until you recognize why some Palestinians want Israeli Jews (NOT ALL JEWS) dead you will never be able to solve this issue except by killing more Palestinians, a stance you have taken many time just today alone. What kind of a human does that make you? A pretty stupid one in my opinion.
Unfortunately you did not help (and clearly had no intention of doing so).
Here is my solution: "“That which is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow. That is the entire Torah, and the rest is commentary. Now go and study.”
What strikes me most about this essay is the immensely delicate kid gloves with which the subject is treated, a testament to its rawness. But there is ultimately very little nuance to this conflict. The jews, with collective ptsd from the German horrors, stole Palestinian land and insist on conflating Palestinians with nazis deserving of systematic cruelty and endless punishment. The Palestinians, full of the rage of slaves, and are even more barbaric in intention if not in capacity. October 7 was Nat Turner. Gaza is the white response. Everyone loses.
Other universities should follow this model. It will help promote understanding and keep the peace on campuses.
On a comment in the essay: "ZIONIST PIONEERS, the precursors of Israel’s liberals, were secular modernizers who were appalled by the rabbinic strictures that alienated Jews in Eastern European cities." Netayahu's extremist coalition now wants to bring back those strictures, amplified if possible.
You ignore the influence of politics, Carolyn. According to a 2022 study from the National Association of Scholars, Qatar today is the largest foreign donor to American universities. The study found that between 2001 and 2021, the petrostate donated a whopping $4.7 billion to U.S. colleges. The largest recipients are some of America’s most prestigious institutions of higher learning.
Contrary to its image as a World Cup-hosting, benevolent education-funding country, Qatar uses its $750 billion – $1 trillion worth of assets to spread political Islamism and antisemitism around the world. The country notoriously supports the global Muslim Brotherhood, and antisemitism has been central to the Brotherhood’s ideology since its founding in Egypt in 1928, 20 years before Israel was founded.
The two state solution won't work as long as Hamas and the surrounding Arab countries who support them want to eradicate Jews entirely. That is the actual written goal of Hamas. So if Israel is "occupying" territory, it's to prevent its use in attacking them. Proximity is the problem. If there must be 22 instead of 21 Arab nations, one called Palestine, it should be moved further away from Israel so Hamas will not be present anywhere near Israel, won't be able to trap civilians in a war zone with the surrounding Arab countries' help, won't be able to tunnel in to commit acts of terrorism or to launch rockets from rooftops. Move it to the far end of Saudi Arabia. But frankly, given the human rights violations, especially to women, of these repressive countries, one less Arab country would be no tragedy. There is only one teeny tiny Jewish homeland, and it didn't just pop up with Jews suddenly appearing there, they've lived there for centuries before, even in the time of Jesus when the then-Palestinians were known as Philistines. Israel has over two million Arab citizens who have full rights of citizenship unlike the propaganda being spread to the contrary. There are many Arab countries that have zero Jews, so who's the apartheid nation? Israel does not owe Palestine land. Palestine and the surrounding Arab countries owed Israel the ability to live in peace. They stole that from them by enabling Hamas to take power there and their continued financial support, their continuous propaganda painting Israel as the bully, when they've been the ones who've been attacked in an effort to entirely eradicate Jews from their own homeland, with false claims that it belongs to Palestine. It sickens me that fellow liberals who support Democracy and many of whom are fighting against Trump to preserve our Democracy, somehow take the side of Hamas and the repressive Arab countries who destroy democracy and deny human rights, especially to gay people and women.
Well said! Jean, you expressed my thoughts and feelings. Sometimes, I believe people are intentionally blind to the truth. Jew hatred began with Paul, who wanted to create a new religion. Both Christians and Jews followed Jesus teachings. Paul realized to be successful he would have to choose one group above the other. He chose the Christians. His hateful sermons were continued by churches throughout our history all over the world. Jews are the infidels! It is only quite recently that Jew hatred has been frowned upon in religious institutions, but it is alive and well in Christian fundamentalist churches today! We are seeing the results of this in many of the comments supporting Hamas on this thread.
Thanks. It's frustrating, because everyone can easily see the propaganda attack with Trump claiming not to have lost the last election, but they don't see through the Palestinian claims that Israel took their land from them for no reason. Even knowing there are so many Arab countries with the kind of wealth that can generate propaganda and disburse it, many fail to recognize their obvious lies. They want to call Golda Meier a liar and believe Arafat, it seems. So many Palestinians are actually from other Arab countries. Arafat was from Egypt, and Egypt is one country who has been keeping their borders closed preventing civilians from escaping. Also where is the outcry and the pictures of Israeli civilians being bombed by Hamas? There are so many graphics and photos of Palestinians claiming it's Israel killing civilians there, but no focus at all on the reason they are launching counterattacks is because Hamas is killing Israeli civilians, too. At least Israel will warn before a counter-attack, which if Hamas and the surrounding Arab countries weren't deliberately preventing their escape just so they can put out this type of publicity about their civilian casualties, they would be able to flee the war zone to safety. They are keeping them there just to be able to spread this propaganda and hate. Hamas and the surrounding Arab countries are the one responsible for every civilian death and injury they are trying to blame on Israel.
Jean, once again you are seeing what I see. When conditioned to be a democrat or republican rom the time you're able to understand language and respond, the conditioning sticks. In the same way, when your parents and family and church conditions you to think of Jews as other or hateful, chances are you'll absorb those beliefs. It takes a mind that is willing to step outside the box, use critical analysis, delve into the history by not reading what you already believe, that you get an unusual individual not guided only by the dogma he or she has been spoon fed.
Was there any inclusion in the classroom discussions of the Qu'ran? It calls for conversion to Islam by the sword if necessary. And we see it happening in Africa now. And what about the killings in Yemen, Syria, and recent attacks in Pakistan, Iran and India? Iran's state goal is to establish another caliphate and that requires the removal of Israel and then who will be next? They are fighting amongst themselves killing hundreds of thousands. Can they really lay claim to be the religion of peace?
I think it probably isn't fair to use whatever translation of the Quran you are talking about. There's some pretty awful things in the Bible. I actually had a Palestinian friend who grew up in Egypt attend a seder once, and when I read some of those words in the Hagaddah knowing he was at our table, I was horrified. Probably better to keep religious text out of this.
Your comment reminds me of Netanyahu's comparison of the Gazans to Amalek in the Bible. South Africa noted this in the section of its ICJ filing that recounts the annihilationist statements by Israeli politicians that arguably indicate genocidal intent.
But it provides and understanding of the violence that people use to justify their actions. The version I have is the most popular one by Ali but critiques have pointed out that it is not always accurate. But it is horrifying enough!
So's the Bible. Some of my Muslim friends have discussed their understanding of their religion with me. I don't doubt their sincerity. There's pretty horrible stuff in the Bible!
You mention the Jews who returned in Israel in the early 20th century but seems to completely forget about the Jews that had always lived there, descendants of the Jews that the Romans didn't succeed in driving out of the Jewish homeland. (One of the original examples of Euro ethnocleansing). It is a very Eurocentric viewpoint that Israel is populated by the Jews we, in Europe, are familiar with and thus it is populated by Jjohnny come latelies while ignoring that most of the Arabs living in that area actually arrived seeking economic opportunities when the British had the mandate.
Among other places for the Jewish state to be formed were at one time proposed in Argentina and even Madagascar. But the Middle East it became. Maybe for the biblical historical aspect. Which are being leveraged by the corrupt apartheid Israeli neocon leader and cabinet members. One thing though. If it weren't for our long standing military oil hoarding interests in the Middle East. Senator Joe Biden would never have stated in 1986 that, "If there weren't an Israel, we'd have to invent one".
For sure though, if we were to stop suppling all the means for the IDF to inflict the ongoing genocide in Palestine. The Israeli's maybe would perhaps be inclined to contemplate a two state solution or even just trying to get along with another ethnic group within its border. But they've perpetually been enhanced with the capability to have the upper hand with our military services for them.
That's been our country's M.O. though. To invoke our interests on others. To keep our advantage. Using others to leverage our position. The Ukrainians, the Israelis. You name it if it furthers our "national interests".
This ongoing tragedy has our hands all over it. And Joe Biden's. But our political and special interest groups don't seem to have a clue other than maintaining the neocon objectives that create havoc around the world. Thing is, those objectives never seem to work out too well. But it never deters them to keep at it over and over again.
Yes! This is the heart of what intellectual and educational discourse is really all about. It’s also why the term “university” needs to be clearly understood and why these institutions cannot be viewed as “job factories”. (Which they were never intended to be). Universities need to be seen as institutions that allow students to embrace the entire range of experiences they care to take on and how to seek knowledge in any area they choose. Hence the term “university”.
That's hard to do when you have one side of the argument putting their thumb on the scale of justice. Are you aware of Qatar's role in the current antisemitic violence on college campuses? According to a 2022 study from the National Association of Scholars, Qatar today is the largest foreign donor to American universities. The study found that between 2001 and 2021, the petrostate donated a whopping $4.7 billion to U.S. colleges. The largest recipients are some of America’s most prestigious institutions of higher learning.
Contrary to its image as a World Cup-hosting, benevolent education-funding country, Qatar uses its $750 billion – $1 trillion worth of assets to spread political Islamism and antisemitism around the world. The country notoriously supports the global Muslim Brotherhood, and antisemitism has been central to the Brotherhood’s ideology since its founding in Egypt in 1928, 20 years before Israel was founded.
Prof. Reich noted that Dartmouth is rural. It's thus relatively insulated from outside groups, politicians, and doxing trucks. I wonder if this sort of de-escalation could have happened at more urban campuses like Harvard, Columbia, Penn, and Yale.
Good point. Living next to Columbia/Barnard, I am aware that it became a political issue immediately rather than an opportunity for intellectual exploration.
There may also be something to the "it is but a small college but there are those who love it" thing. Dartmouth may be less socially fragmented than larger, more urban Ivy schools or a place like Berkeley. Although Dartmouth has right wing alums, there also doesn't seem to have been a big Dartmouth donor like Bill Ackman or Marc Rowan.
You're right. It was actually made by Bernard Avishai in the piece. "Dartmouth is isolated and nested in an almost unnervingly lovely New Hampshire river valley...." The essay also appears in this morning's The New Yorker online.
And published in print before then ~ Feb 2nd 2024.
The Dartmouth introduction [in youtube form seems particularly disturbing - but I don't have time today. ]. A disturbing artifact of failures of modern journalism.
University is not for this IMO - but Dartmouth is now the cradle of American leaders - politicians and Statesmen and Women.
Definitely not for me.
^^^ In both senses of that meaning (two different ways through the prism )
What an incredibly thoughtful and enlightened way to approach such a nuanced subject - I love it! Wish those two would get together and create a mini series on American Public Television.
Great idea. We all would benefit--something we need now and a way forward for democracy: civility.
How about bringing representatives to the table? Each side shoud have negotiators.
"Strident defenders of Israel and Palestine both accuse the other side of genocide while also questioning that side’s right to exist. This kind of language can defeat a university—and a democracy. An institution committed to tolerance has no obligation to tolerate intolerant people; an open society will close off threats to the terms of debate themselves."
I'd hope that they would have discussed that living in Israel are over a million Jews who speak Arabic and about several hundred thousand who speak Farsi -- families of those Jews who lost everything when expelled from Moslem countries in 1947-1948. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_the_Muslim_world#:~:text=The%20first%20large%2Dscale%20exoduses,to%20Israel%20from%20Arab%20countries.
And likewise they would discuss the millions of Palestinian Christians who live is peace, secure from discrimination by Moslem countries.
And likewise they'd have discussed that Israeli Arabs have civil rights, have their own political party and are members of the government.
First order of business is to get opponents to agree to mediate. The purpose of mediation is to let the parties reach agreement. Most of the time, the exercise becomes a game of "ladders". One party starts at the top, the other at the bottom. They advance rung by rung. Both skip genocide, if it's the first rung. The problem has been that since the Oslo Accords, neither party has agreed to mediate.
BTW Israel has a peace movement. Who do the Palestinians have? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_political_parties_in_Israel
I think they have a lot of people who are terrified to speak up.
Like this? https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLgMrrtQlw2QNQ0o6WAqH-_FiEiEYn0g3U
Wow. I just watched only one of them. As I always thought. They can't speak up, Hamas would kill them, as they already have with many others. A Palestinian government made up of responsible politicians and not terrorists would be such a good thing for everyone. How to get the good people out of the shadows and into government?
In 2014 were found guilt killing their own people and blaming Israel.
They killed them as Palestinians tried to move south.
Israel killed thousands and destroyed hundreds of homes and schools and clinics in 2014. Israel is the occupier. They are the prison guards of the world’s biggest open air prison. They like to “mow the lawn” every few years with high tech fighter jets and hell fire missiles provided by the US. But you claim Hamas is really doing that. How? With hang gliders and grenades and rifles? Bombing whole neighborhoods?
Iran's Theocratic Democracy pitted against Israel's Parliamentary Democracy will give birth to a religious war that will soak the sands of the Middle East in the blood of innocents. So, it shall be written, so, it shall be done. Rameses freed the Jews and Moses led them into Cannan, that's how it started, who knows how it will end.
Israel is not a democracy; it's been declared an apartheid state by Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, and numerous smaller groups like American Friends Service Committee (Quakers).
Israel has been hijacked by religious right wing nuts. Israel has become a theocracy to rival Iran.
The PA and the PLO for all intents purposes are temporally out of order. The government of the Palestine people will have to redeveloped itself before it can be recognized as a legitimate governing body. Iran is the puppet master, and all the other players bow to its authority. Israel will have to deal with the theocratic rule of Iran. God is coming head-to-head with itself.
The video posted is a cartoon. It’s not real people or a real interview.
It’s a cartoon not real people. The brutal occupation, apartheid, ethnic cleansing, siege of Gaza, genocide has been doing on for decades at the hands of a racist ethno state, Israel.
The Palestinians under Arafat established a secular democracy that grew out of the Onslo Accord in 1993. It included women and Christians. Predictably Israel arrested Arafat and assassinated Rabin who was the PM of Israel at the time. Netanyahu and Sharon and other right wingers felt threaten by the peace developing between Israel and Palestinians which could have very well led to a Palestinian state with international recognition.
Thank you for that!
I was almost expelled at my university because the school deemed my research writing as anti-Semitic. One of my interviews involved an Israeli student who did not like the increasingly critical nature of my questions. I used to be pro-Israel. To my horror I discovered I had been lied to my whole life. The student accused me of being a skin head who was writ anti-Semitic slogans on the bulletin boards around school. I asked the three professors if they had actually seen this. They wanted to investigate further but I never heard back. There was no anti-Semitic language on the bulletin boards. The Israeli student made it up and tried to get me expelled.
So... now you're an antisemite?
Not at all. I even hired a Jewish vocalist and instrumentalist to join me on my latest album. She brought a Klezmer vibe that was unique and wonderful. Check it out at www.mangonights.bandcamp.com her name is Judith Abrahm. Checkout her bio at www.mangonights.com
A new genre”klezmer jazz and R&B.
Palestinians would have a far different take on some of your comments. For example, Palestinian Christians do not live in peace in Israel. I was in a Zoom session this morning featuring the Reverend Isaac, the Palestinian Lutheran minister who became famous at Christmas time for his nativity of Jesus among the rubble. He made clear that all Palestinians are maltreated by the Israelis, especially under Netanyahu's extreme right wing government, but way before that.
Arab Israelis may have rights on paper, but they are not allowed to vote, have no access to the many bomb shelters there (there are none in Gaza), and are placed in low paid, menial jobs as Israel controls the economy.
Sounds like he is not inside Israel. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Arab_members_of_the_Knesset
Islamists openly threaten all Christians.
He is in Gaza
Not an Israeli Arab.
Gaza is controlled by Hamas.
Gaza is occupied by Israel de facto because the blockade has turned Gaza into the biggest open air prison in the world. Israelis are the prison guards. Just because prison guards don’t live with inmates and go home at night doesn’t mean they aren’t I in total control of every aspect of the prisoners lives. They are not free. They can not leave. They are occupied.
The Quran calls Jews and Christians “the people of the Book” and as such they are given great respect. Mary is mentioned more times by the Quran than the Bible. It also speaks of Moses, Abraham, Issac, Jesus and others in glowing terms.
500 are sheltering at the Holy Family Catholic Church in northern Gaza. Snipers recently killed a mother and daughter who ventured outside in the courtyard There is a Baptist church and a Greek Orthodox Church but they have been destroyed.
Israel is a threat to Christians if they are Palestinian. The sisters take turns singing the Ava Maria determined to stay to the end and serve the people. We don’t know how long they can hold out. The church has suffered damage from the bombs but no direct hit yet. They have very little food or water and no medical. What would you do if you had to live like that?
Daniel, reaching agreement in the midst of conflict is unrealistic. It is nevertheless necessary to start and maintain dialogue. The alternative is genocide.
I lived through Korea, 1954 Geneva accords, Vietnam.
All agreements were reached in the midst of conflict.
I was a mediator/settlement judge. Most settlements are reached pending trial.
Daniel, thank you for your valuable, encouraging observation.
Genocide is already being carried out.
By the Arabs, yes. The UN Convention on Genocide says that intention is required to declare genocide. Israel has not declared any intention other than self protection and justice for the terrorists that slaughtered in cold blood women, infants, babies, elderly, disabled and raped women, and took over 200 of them as humans shields.
HAMAS does have the intention of Genocide it is in their 1988 Covenant, and was not repudiated by their 2018 update.
Islam also has the intention of genocide of Jews, it is in the Quran and the hadiths.
You can honestly say with a straight face that Israel is not committing genocide? And that the Arabs are doing it? Look at the statements Israeli ministers are making if you need intent. The ICJ found recently that that Israel is plausibly committing genocide. Who has dropped 30,000 tons of bombs on Gaza (the equivalent of 2 nuclear bombs)? Who has cut off water, food, electricity, medical supplies to a civilian population that is now starving? Half of whom are children. Who has dropped white phosphorus on a densely populated area? Who has bombed hospitals, schools, residential buildings? Who bombs Palestinians in the south after it told them to move there? The Arabs? Israel's war crimes are innumerable.
Israel could have taken a different approach to Oct. 7 by doing targeted assassinations rather than going after the entire population of Gaza. It has killed far more civilians than Hamas. Its end game is not Hamas but ethnic cleansing of Gaza to steal the land for Israel.
By the way Israel was warned and aware of the Oct. 7 attacks months before they happened. It was a false flag, allowed to happen to achieve the objective of annexing Gaza to Israel.
You are also incorrect about the Hamas 2018 covenant which says it is not against the Jewish faith but Jewish appropriation of Palestinian land and subjugation and oppression of its people.
Spare me the heart wrenching emotionalism please. Yes I can say with a straight face that Israel is not committing genocide.
Do you even know what genocide is? Apparently not, it is just a scare word that you and others throw around for propaganda effect.
It is impossible for anyone to genocide Arabs or Muslims, and genocide according to the UN covenant requires Intent, and Israel has no intent on genociding (wiping off the face of the earth) Arabs, on the other hand HAMAS does, it is in their covenant, and Islam does, (Jews) it is in their sacred text.
The Quran honors Jews and Christian’s as “People of the Book”. Mary is mentioned more times in the Quran than the Bible. It also honors Moses, Abraham, Jacob, Issac and Jesus.
Hamas seeks to end the ethno Zionist state not Jews. It’s part of their religion to accept Jews and Christians who they believe are worshipping the same God.
Quran does not honor peoples of the book. I told you that I have studied the Quran,hadiths and the biogrpahhy of Muhammad by ibn Ishaq.
What Islam does, it allows "peoples of the book" to live among them and practice their religion (not so for atheists and poltheists - Hindus) which must convert or lose their heads, if and only if peoples of the book pay the jizzyah (poll tax) and live as dhimmi's (secondclass citizens)
Mary or Miriyam as called in the Quran is not mentioned more times than Mary in the Bible,and even if so,it is irrelevant and proves nothing. If you read the Quran carefully,without blinders or being told what to think, you will see that the angel Gabri el, appears to Miriyam as the handsomest man, and the only thing that can be drawn from that encounter is that he coupled with Miriyam, and Issa (or Jesus) was the result.
TheQuran denies that Issa is the son of god, only a prophet, and Muhammad was the last prophet, superceding Issa.
The Quran does not honor Moses,Abraham, Jacob, Isaac and Jesus, it considers them prophets and the last and greatest prophet is Muhammad,And they don't consider Isaac a prophet either. Isaac is suppose to be the ancestors of the Jews, his brother Ishmael is suppose to be the ancestor of the Arabs well the Northern Arab anyway).
And Allahi s not the god of the Jews and Christians, Allah is a contraction of al Lihah,or the Moon god, that the Arabs worshiped in pre Muhammad times the Jahiluyyah.
In those days the Arabs worshiped the mon and Venus (al Uzza) as the morning star, they worship a meteorite they believe is part of the moon,by making a pilgrimage (haj) to it in Mecca and circumnavigate it, encased in the black cube, called the Qaba.
For proof I offer only the the new moon you see on many Muslim flags (like Turkey) and on top of Mosques and the star representing Venus.
Muslims would have you believe that all the Abrahamic religions worship the same god, but Is;am was made up of Jewish and Christian beliefs, after the Arabs flew out of the desert with their swords and conquered the extant Greco Roman Empire.
What an inferiority complex they had as well. Where the Jews had a six pointed star, the Arabs had to have an 8 pointed star, always one upping the Jews and Christians,
Suggestion for you Sue. Stop going to your Arab friends for advice as to how to counter my argument and facts. I am ahead of you.
A Muslim called me a murtadd. (apostate) because in their mind's eye, anyone who has studied the Quran and Haddiths has to be a Muslim (by default) ergo I am an apostate.
Ask your friends about that ridiculous midnight ride of Muhammad, on the back of a chimera beast, body of a horse, wings of an eagle, head of a human, to Jerusalem where it launched itself on a rock into the heavens, where Mo passed through the seven levels of heaven (seven planes) and dickered with ally,with the help of Abraham, for five daily prayers, "jewing" him down from 500 to 50 then to 5.
If they tell you that it was only a dream, then why revere the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem, upon which is the imprint of a dinosaur, which Muslims believe isthe imprint of this chimera beast.
The Hamas 2017 charter update makes it clear that the fight for Palestinian freedom is not against Jews or Israel only the Zionist rulers who have hijacked the country. Their charter is public. Look it up. It’s under article 15 and 16. It’s not calling for the annihilation of Jews.
It is the 2018 Charter and it is only revised, but it does not refute the 1988 Charter. I know that you are going to your Arab friends for advice as to how to respons to this kufr.
Again the 2018 revision does not refute the 1988 Covenant.
You aren't familiar with the word taqiyyah, it is roughly translated obfuscation. Muslims are forbidden to lie to save their own skin, but are required to lie and obfuscate, on the punishment of eternal damnation, to protect Islam.
Israel would have us not believe our lying eyes.
That would be Netanyahu, but let's place the blame where it really lies.. on HAMAS,
Students are not questioning Israel’s right to exist. Thats Israeli propaganda repeated without question by MSM
@Daniel Solomon, I fear that Israel will not survive to 2048 unless the financing of Iran is strictly regulated, a Palestinian state is created, and the nuclear race is stopped. A few other factors we can discuss off line.
Human behavior is threatening their own species. We are now living in the anthropocene, it started in the 1950's, were man started to make an impact on the environment, the holocene was the ice age, where ice made an impact on the environment. The holocene lasted tens of thousands of years, the anthropocene might not make it to the 21st Century.
That will put an end to all of his human bickering, belief, greed, hatred, fear, anguish and angst.
Iran is already sanctioned by the West so it has opened up trade with the Global South: Saudi Arabia, China, Russia etc to fill the gap. All Israel has to do is stop the genocide and withdraw from Gaza and then the attacks by Hezbollah and Houthis etc will stop. It will stop attacks on US military bases and stop the march to a catastrophic regional war or WW3.
I think your program will not achieve your vision.
Israel is not the first to commit genocide but the first to claim to be the victim while committing genocide
Interesting Question Daniel.
Yes Israel does have a peace movement, and even advocates for Palestinians.
But there is no Arabic or Muslim country that has a peace movement, because despite the claims of Islamic apologists,.
Iranian women have formed a movement for woman’s rights
Thanks, I know I follow it, and it is brutally repressed by the mullahs. It has nothing to do with the hijab or modesty, and everything to do with power of men over women, the patriarchy.
It was rhetorical.
The Palestinians are not allowed to have a peace movement. The Great March in Gaza resulted in Israelis firing into the crowd as they engaged in non-violent peaceful protest. They are occupied. They are in an open air prison. Palestinians have no say. If they want to live they have to put their heads down and shut up. How can they have a peace movement under siege and occupation?
Israel does have an organized peace movement which is allowed (although not so much now) Only the Israeli people can stop the occupation. They have all the power as the occupying force. Palestinians have no power.
Israel is not the first to commit genocide but it is the first to claim to be the victim as they commit genocide.
Excellent idea, but I'm not pro-Israel, but when one people voted in Hamas to run Gaza, and 78% support the Hamas Oct 7th slaughter. . maybe that side can't find any reasonable negotiators? When the entire population wants the complete distruction of the other, . . not a lot of room for negotition.
Hamas brokered a cease fire with Israel on May 2021 but Israel violated the terms several times over 2022 and 2023. Israel promised not to attack and harass the unarmed worshippers at he Al Aqsa Mosque on Ramadan. This is the third most holy site in Islam. That is why the attack was called “the Al Aqsa Flood”. Hamas repeatedly warned Israel that a military response would come. What did they expect?
Seriously, Sue??!!! You either a anti-semite or just plain biggoted, not to see the perspective of all this. And to insult peoples intelligence and the deaths of 1200 men, women, and children, that their deaths were "warned" all because according to Sue "Israel promised not to attack/harass unarmed worshippers at Al Aqsa Mosgue on Ramadan," and Sue alleges this is a "violation!" of the 2021 ceasefire agreement. wow. . just. . wow. You, Sue, "JUSTIFIES" the slaughter of t 1200 innocent Israeli citizens, the rape and murder of women, the slaughter and decapitation. . based on a "violation of a cease fire agreement 3 years ago, and alleged attack/harassment of Palestinian worshipers at Al Aqsa Mosque. I could give a flying you-know-what what is "most holy". . but what is truly sacred. . is the lives of innocent people, particularly women children. . TARGET by Hamas terrorists, because Sue feels they had some . . "right to pull off this slaughter?" Your recognition of history seems to be very . . "selective?" What happened at Al Aqsa mosque was not a slaughter, and the "harrassment" was generated by Palestininans refusing to leave, etc. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Al-Aqsa_clashes#:~:text=Since%20the%20beginning%20of%20Ramadan,evict%20worshippers%20nightly%20over%20Ramadan.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Israel%E2%80%93Palestine_crisis#:~:text=Egypt%20mediated%20a%20ceasefire%20between,which%20both%20sides%20claimed%20victory.
Grow a brain, Sue! And open your mind, your bigotry is clouding your brain. You're smart, but not smart enough to accept inconvenient truths.
this should be an ongoing (and in all cultural conflicts ... Hatfields/McCoys) process. If I recall, that is what Yassar Arrafat came to the table to try so many years ago. But it has to be ongoing, to soften the blatant hatred that keeps cropping up.
Arafat brought peace to the region and came close to creating a Palestinian state so right wingers had him and Rabin killed.
That’s because the world sees through the Israeli propaganda. They can no longer hide the truth, not with social media, internet, YouTube, cell phones do available worldwide
Great idea!
That and lead the discussion with those making these decisions.
Thank you very much for this beautiful essay about these two thoughtful people. I will print it so that I can return to it, and will reread it, I am sure, so that I can take time to think through this complex, painful situation in a sane, grounded, respectful way. This essay is a gift. I am grateful.
Hello Donna-thank you for writing your appreciation for an essay that makes me long to take their class. I wonder if they made videos of the classes as Dr. Reich did with his Wealth and Poverty class? Such classes/videos need to be seen by as much of the world as possible. We all need to know better how to think and reason with compassion, fellow feeling and love.
Stephanie, What a wonderful idea! Because of your prompt, I took a more careful look at the piece and see that there is a link right at the beginning to Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=om2FmYGfN7o It is called Second Discussion on the Horrific Events Unfolding in Israel and Gaza taped October 12, 2023 indicating that Dartmouth appreciates how important it is for a wider audience to hear them.
Donna, huge thank you for pointing it out to me!
I also hope they will collaborate to produce a book or book series that might become the standard reference for scholarship in this area.
Who is "They" in this instance that you refer too ?
Don Klemencic wrote : " also hope they will collaborate to produce a book or book series that might become the standard reference for scholarship in this area. ".
Eric,
I was referring to Bernard Avishai and Ezzedine Fishere. (Avishai was Robert Reich's guest writer, who identified Fishere as his teaching collaborator.)
Nope it's a cut and paste from a recent New Yorker Magazine article - no "Guest writer".
“Zionism is terrible for Jews, too.”
https://youtu.be/QAxfRLfUVZQ?si=aOyFLzZqwwCihU5U
Good idea.
I SO AGREE.
This was (past tense) published in the New Yorker (Magazine) February 2nd [2024].
If you google "Naqba, Black scholars who have put Ferguson next to Gaza "
You will find the original publication of the article. Verbatim*.
You can save yourself a lot of printer paper and ink that way if you go to (for example) a Barnes and Nobel and buy the New Yorker (magazine).
I had to read it on my cell phone as the New Yorker Magazine "Thinks" that I have looked at too many articles from them - (on line) when in fact I haven't at all.
I had to double check and double read the article on my cell phone.
I would caution that a third "Tilt " of the "Crystal" / prism might reveal a more e-clease-e-astical version of the John variety.
______________________________________________________________________________________________
* Raises an interesting point that WHO has the original copyright and what are the restrictions on an opinion piece and ownership that claims provenance from a "Letter" ?
Not sure how "Bob" fits into this picture exactly - if at all.
Two state solution: all the religious crazies including about 2 million orthodox jews and some number of Muslim total believers who live in Palestine will be one state. The other state will be modern sensible NON god-fearing adults. All three major religions WORSHIP one god. All non believers ignore the obvious hoax.
Joan Breibart, I love your post. Still smiling.
Nice, unfortunately the Religous crazies will burn in a great civil war. But the non-believers could have a similar problem, where some believe in survival of the fittest, while others believe people should cooperate.
Ted, this is one reason why we have universities.
That, 1948, was then. This is now.
Israel has an absolute right to exist. Hamas has to go but regular Palestinians need to be allowed to live. My fear is the way Netanyahu waged war has created a new generation of enemies for his children and grandchildren. I don’t see much chance for peace for at least two generations.
Well said!
Was that a comment to self? Not one comment of yours in this thread sounds like a well thought out adult argument. If this was a “war on Hamas” why had Israel killed hundreds of Palestinians in the West Bank *before* Oct 7th? Why has Israel taken hostage over 3000+ Palestinians including children IN the West Bank SINCE Oct 7th? Have you considered there wouldn’t be Hamas if there were no occupation?
My fear is that after slaughtering nearly 30,00 Palestinians Israel has made enemies that can never become friends. What would you feel about a group of people that purposely killed your whole family?
About half of that number are Hamas terrorists. Don’t be fudging that.
According to Israel’s own figures, only 2,000 fighters have been killed. Thats because they are underground.
I don’t think Germany, Japan, and the U.S. had the foundation or history of hate and rage between us that exists between Israel and Palestine.
Richard with one important distinction. A Jewish proverb. If you save one life, you save the world. Netanyahu is more interested in saving his own life in preference to the hostages.
I agree with you. BiBi is very much like Donald Trump. He cares about himself and staying out of jail. He failed tragically to do the one thing the citizens required of him - to keep them safe. And, he is not being strategic in his response. Biden tried to convince him not to do what we did after 9/11, and he went ahead and did it anyway, turning much of the world against not only Israel, but Jews the world over. He's more interested in power than any real solutions.
Actually that is in the Quran
That’s why the IDF killed almost half the people on 10/7. It’s Israel’s policy to kill hostages along with militants to avoid having to negotiate their release
You will never "deradicalize" Palestinians by murdering them and their families by the thousands, starving them, destroying their homeland, and driving them out of it. Israel's actions show it is not after Hamas, but the civilian population of Gaza, as far more civilians have been killed than Hamas. Its end game is the annexation of an ethnically cleansed Gaza.
Your analogy to Germany and Japan is inept. The US never tried to exterminate almost the entire population of either country in order to annex the emptied land into the US. The Germans and Japanese kept both their land and their homes.
Netanyahu clearly wants to kill all the Palestinians and take their land for Israel. .
Evidently genocide takes more than a week even if bombed day and night. Maybe Israel needs some gas chambers.
If the land belongs to Israel then annex the occupied territories and give Palestinians equal rights. why occupy the West Bank and Gaza? Why decades of apartheid rule?
HaHaHa!
Those objectives will never be fulfilled. Bibi is out for himself and his messianic colleagues.
None if these objectives have been achieved by Israel
1. Hamas not destroyed
2. Hostages not released by IDF
3. Radicalization increased worldwide
The Arabs want the world to think that this is a secular conflict, and it is isn't, not from the Muslim point of view, it is religious, that is why they started the war in 1948.
Muslims lived in peace with Jews and Christians for 2,000 years. But then the British started the divisions in 1917 declaring Palestine to be the eventual home of the Jews even though it was 95% Muslim Palestinians at the time. Of course that caused great anger and fear. Their worst fesrs came true in 1948 with 750,000 ethnically cleansed and thousands killed, tortured and raped. Israeli students aren’t taught this history. They really don’t know.
I did not know about the 1929 Hebron Massacre.
It was Israel who refused a two-state solution every time. And year-by-year, the Arabs/Muslims were blamed - and still are. If Israel had wanted a 2SS, it would not have slaughtered Palestinians and created a nukba in 1948 and every "Operation XXX" thereafter.
Wow, you have this so backwards it is hard for me to believe you are not deliberately denying the truth but I'll be nice and say you are just very ignorant of the facts. Why did they attack Israel between 1948 and 1967 when it was not Israel occupying the land they claimed they wanted for a state but Egypt and Jordan…. If what they wanted was Gaza and the West Bank as they claim, why were they attacking Israel who was not occupying them but Jordan and Egypt? The reality is that for the Palestinian Authority it is not about an independent Palestinian state but about destroying Israel.
Why did they attack Israel between 1948 and 1967 when it was not Israel occupying the land they claimed they wanted for a state but Egypt and Jordan…. If what they wanted was Gaza and the West Bank as they claim, why were they attacking Israel who was not occupying them but Jordan and Egypt? The reality is that for the Palestinian Authority it is not about an independent Palestinian state but about destroying Israel.
1937 - Partition was offered by the British and rejected by the Arabs, leading to violence and the massacre of Jews in Tiberias.
1947 - Partition was offered by the United Nations and rejected by the Arabs, leading to civil war, Arab armies invading Israel and 6000+ Jews being killed.
1949–1967 - An independent state was offered to the Palestinians and they ignored it. Terrorist attacks increased in Israel and the PLO was created.
1993–2001- Two states were offered by Israel and rejected by Palestinians leading to the Second Intifada and 1000+ Israelis being murdered.
2005 - Israel withdrew from Gaza. Instead of creating a prosperous fledgling independent Palestinian territory, Hamas took control of the region and sent 1000s of rockets into Israel.
2008 - Two states were offered by Israel but rejected by the Palestinians. What followed was sporadic violence and terror.
Since 2008, there haven’t been arranged talks to establish a Palestinian state because of a lack of faith in the Palestinians’ willingness to cooperate and negotiate in the pursuit of peace.
I've judged you according to your first sentence. That's enough.
Nerak, I've posted Israeli history many times on this thread as you have, but Jew hatred is in Mary's DNA. It's one thing to support the Palestinians; it's another to purposely spread the poison of hate as Mary and her like minded friends have.
Israel attacked Jordan and Egypt in 1967. They call it a “preemptive strike” in other words Israel was the aggressor.
They did not. Did you have to turn yourself into a pretzel to come up with that response. I guess, in your opinion, they were supposed to ignore the 6000 massed around its borders and accept another 10/7 disaster.
Mary, you must be living on another planet, using false arguments that can be dismissed by anyone who has the capacity to read and view the videos confirmed by US Intelligence.
Actually it was. Historical documents show that Israel never intended to abide by the 1948 agreement.
Even if I knew nothing about the history of the region, which simply isn't true, the documents are out there. You could look for them yourself you wanted to.
‘Our movement is maximalist. Even all of Palestine is not our final goal’ Ben Gurion
“In the wake of the establishment of the state,we will abolish partition and expand to the whole of Palestine.” Also Ben Gurion.
You can also perhaps read Benny Morris, he goes into it in some great detail quoting from the actual documents. But make sure you get his book that was written before the death threats.
Having said that, I'm not your mother – do your own research. You wouldn't trust any source I gave you anyway because you are immune to evidence.
Israeli history books doesn’t cover much before 1950 do they don’t know much about the Naqba of 1947-1948 when Israelis perpetrated ethnic cleansing of 750,000 and massacred thousands of Palestinians.
Did you study this history in an Israeli school?
Yes in 1917 the British declared Palestine to be the future homeland for the Jews. The only problem, Palestine was 95% Arab at the time. Naturally the Palestinians were very alarmed and scared wondering if my land is going to be the future homeland for the Jews, what’s in store for our future??!! Their worst fears were realized in 1948 when 750,000 were ethnically cleansed and thousands killed, tortured and raped.
Yeah but the Palestinians were assigned the worst land, no wonder they complained. Two state solution may take 100 years but it is the only answer.
And Israel got 55% of the land even though they were only 25% of the population. Many 100% Arab villages were given to the Zionists.
It's the other way around, Marjorie. Jews bought thousands of miles of land at the time. The Arab sheiks were only to glad to get rid of the swamp land they thought was worthless. The Jewish National Fund still holds the deeds to the land. If you know the history of the area you also know it was Chaim Weitzman, a leading world class scientist at the time, who realized that Jews could not exist in Europe safely. He influenced Lord Rothchild to speak to his friend Lord Balfour in England to establish a safe haven for Jews in their biblical homeland Palestine. Hence, the Balfour Declaration in 1915. Fast forward to WWI. Churchill needed Weitzman's scientific knowledge to win WWI. Weitzman invented Acetone, a leading contributor to winning the war. Churchill brokered a deal with Abdullah and Weitzman. Abdullah received 80% of the land that is called Palestine and the Jews received 20%. The lion's share went to Jordan. Israel has fought 4 major wars and 13 operations to hang on to less than its 20%. Israel is now the size of Connecticut.
Have you been looking at Israeli history sources? Look at multiple sources. I used to be pro-Israel but After studying the Israel/Palestinian conflict on a university level, if Israeli sources say it’s raining outside, go to the window and look.
You would do well to read something other than Iran's propaganda and Linda Sarsour, Rashida Tlaib and Ilan Omar's over the top proclamations. You are just an echo chamber for those that spend their hours like tRump coming up with QANON conspiracy theories. Sue, you even put them to shame. Talk about sycophants.
Sue, your university level conclusions come directly from Qatar who is the largest foreign donor to American higher learning institutions. They donated more than 4 billion dollars to institutions like Harvard and Columbia. They represent the Moslem Brotherhood, an antisemitic organization who have in their charter the elimination of Israel. The recent attacks on Jewish students didn't come out of no where. They were planned and coordinated in Qatar! Yes, they are chief negotiators for the release of Israeli hostages, but don't be fooled by their educational contributions. The brains behind the 10/7 attack are sitting in Qatar. They have a trillion dollars in assets.
The Palestinians had no input into any solution. Balfour and England foisted it on them.
Where are you getting your information?
You really are a lot like the MAGA folks. One view. Your way, You’re right. Everyone else is ignorant. Rightwing Zionist? 😉
Where do you get your information from? Did you go to school in Israel?
Party line.
Please be respectful
How would you suggest I phrase it, Dr. Reich?
Bob's "article" is a re-badged cut and paste job from the New Yorker Magazine Published Feb 2nd [2024] - he is not the author.
Or common origin from an apocryphal letter.
Google " Naqba, Black scholars who have put Ferguson next to Gaza "
and you will find the original published opinion / "Daily Comment" - piece.
Interesting copyright issue.
Human or not - chatbot or not.
Did you go to school in Israel?
I doubt you know my politics, and I doubt you are interested in them or in those of anyone on here who doesn't agree with you. If it amuses you, keep on talking to yourself.
Keep in mind that most Israelis conveniently are not taught much of their history before 1950. Students are indoctrinated with anti-Palestinian propaganda at a very young age. They don’t know many Palestinians if at all.
Sue, once again the info. you provide is much like tRumps full of lies. Is that why they have a Virtual Jewish Library? In 2018, the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, or OECD, placed Israel as the third most educated country worldwide, only below Canada and Japan. "In Israel, 88 percent of adults aged 25-64 have completed upper secondary education, higher than the OECD average of 79 percent," the OECD found.
Richard, Guerilla Surgeon, Eddie, Maureen, et al-I am in tears right now. I am a Jew. All but 7 of my mother’s family died in the holocaust. I am broken hearted by the death and destruction and the killing words from both sides of this war. We can all look up, read, see, and hear all the facts/data, from past and present, that all of you have detailed here. I don’t doubt that they all are there. However, all that we are doing is fighting this Israeli/Hamas war here in Dr. Reich’s, and our, forum. STOP IT!! I agree with what the two Dartmouth professors are doing. We need to be thinking and reasoning with fellow feeling and compassion. We need to stop this dueling with words which, contrary to the old saying, do hurt. ENOUGH! Let’s talk about the essay. Let’s find out more. Let’s ask how we can do what they are doing to, at least, arrive at understanding if not agreement.
DR. REICH, is there any way we could connect with those two insightful professors? Zoom conference, maybe? Any way to hear more? Please.
In 1947 The UN gave 55% of land to the Zionists even though they were only 25% of the population. Many 100% Palestinian villages were assigned to Israel. The Palestinians were not even included in the UN talks. The best farmland and water resources were given to Israel.
If you were Palestinian would you agree to that deal??!!
Once again Sue your insistence on misstating the facts only surpasses your ignorance of Israeli history. Israel received 20% and Jordan received 89% of the land in question.
I understand that the United States is a partner in this Genocide . I wonder how many millions of Americans we could help here in our own country either the Billions of Dollars we are spending to KILL INNOCENT PEOPLE. And the Thousands of CHILDREN WERE ARE MURDERING? ☮️
I think both of you need to read the article again.
You can read it as a NOT cut and paste job in the New Yorker Magazine. Feb 2 2024 "Daily Comment"
The UN set up a phony state for the Arabs. Although 75% of the population, the Arabs only got 45% of the land. Israel got 55% and the best agricultural land land and water resources. Many 100% Arab villages were given to the Israeli Zionists. If you were an Arab, would you agree to that? The UN didn't even include the Palestenians in the talks when making the partition. The partition was for the benefit of the West, to plop the Western cat's paw (Israel) in the region to control trade and to maintain a giant western military base in the Middle East.
Absolutely wrong Sue. The Arabs got 80% and the Jews got 20%. Jordan got the lion's share of the land. It was brokered during WWI by Churchill, Abdullah and the Jews. http://www.kinghussein.gov.jo/his_transjordan.html
It wasn't the UN that set up a phony state. Your words not mine. It was all of the allied nations. In your opinion, all the treaties signed by our allies and the US from WWI and II should be null and void. be null and void.
Maybe because Israel has treated the Palestinians as subhumans?
The British did not partition Palestine. The UN did that in 1947. 55% went to the Jews even though they were only 25% of the population. Look it up.
Are you referring to the percentage of Palestinians living in Trans Jordan in 1922?
The Zionists took far more land than the UN partition allowed. Don't take my work for it, look it up.
I feel sorry for the world. Because of international refusal to demand justice for the Palestinians, we are on the brink of WW3.
What are your sources?
Of course the Palestinians didn't go along with it. Israel intended to take over 50% of the land that once belonged to Palestinians. They now control even more of it and have already stated that they intend to own everything from the river to the sea. If you were Palestinian would you have gone along with it?
But it was occupied by Palestinians.
Yes it was. Ben Gurion ordered the IDF to expel the Arabs from Israel.
Really? What is your source for this assertion?
Your idea of war as inevitable, I find horrifying and against everything that makes us humane and intelligent beings.
Lyra—have to agree with you.
Also the term “collateral damage” is repugnant. It’s dehumanizing and whenever I hear it used, especially by the military, I think of the word excuse.
It denies the basic fact that no matter which side of the fence we as humans fight on, both sides always seem to feel justified, somehow.
After all the smoke is cleared and all the treaties agreed upon, we as humans just start another justified war—sometimes 2 maybe 3 wars at once since we fought the 2 World Wars.
People are executed if they refuse to fight during times of war. And we have an economy largely based on war. There are wars promoted and supported by the businesses and world corporations that profit from war in every way, and the various politicians who promote and force people to participate.
There are fewer and fewer places to escape in the world from war, and God help the ones who find themselves stuck in the middle of them, and we just keep creating more powerful bombs to supposedly end war.
War is legalized murder—always has been and always will be. The rage that is so apparent is caused from identifying with one side or the other, but they’re all human beings. They are not collateral damage.
Maybe we each must become the change we want to see!
The Israeli/Palestinian conflict was started by Britain in 1917 under the Balfour Declaration. This declared that Palestine would be a Jewish state. Before that Jews and Palestinians lived in peace for 2,000 years, from 600 A.D. to 1917. Before 1917 the British promised it to the Palestinians in exchange for joining them to fight the Ottomans in WW1. Of course the Arabs felt betrayed and were very afraid of being displaced or killed if Israel became a state. And that's what happen. 750,000 Palestinians were ethnically cleansed in 1948 and thousands murdered, tortured (flamethrowers) stripped and dehumanized and raped.
Thanks for commenting. It makes me wonder how we overcome primordial feelings of threat to selves, our families, our tribes. I question the prideful incompetence of those powerful "leaders" who would bring "civilization" to an area where people already coexist. Amazing how a small group of powerful men create chaos, strife, dis-ease and turbulence within a territory by setting up artificial political boundaries. Is it one group feeling superior, feeling the need to compete instead of share--to spread rumor instead of understanding?
Your version of this is nauseating. Have you visited lately? Or does michigan use fox newz for their information. Your version of history needs a review
What will happen to the people living in Gaza if everything is destroyed? The Marshal Plan was instituted in Europe and Japan after the war so that poverty would not lead to fascism again. That led to peace for decades. Now Germany and Japan are democratic prosperous allies. The same thing needs to be done for a prosperous and democratic Palestine.
refugees in Gaza are not allowed to move anywhere. They are trapped. Gaza is know as the world's biggest open air prison. Israel controls who gets in and who gets out because they are the occupiers of Gaza. They have barricaded on all sides for 17 years. Israel does not allow other Arab countries in except for small shipments of aid. That way Israel doesn't have to pay for their occupation.
Don't take my word for it, look it up
The PLO accepted the existence of the state of Israel 35 years ago but what did it get them? More occupation, apartheid, ethnic cleansing and genocide.
In your illustration Cuba would have to be surrounded and barricaded from all sides, an open air prison created by the US, an occupation. To be comparable the US would be controlling the water, food, electricity, travel, medicine, banning building supplies while at the same time bombing Cuba every couple of years to "mow the grass" meaning cut down the population. Now imagine that the US and Cuba had a cease fire agreement that:
1. US had to stop the bombing and in return Cuba would stop the rockets into FL.
2. US would be required to stop attacks of unarmed worshipers at their holy places on Easter.
Now back to real time 10/7. The attack was called the Al Aqsa Flood. This was because the last cease fire agreement in May 2021 required Israel to:
1. withdraw from the Al Aqsa Mosque and stop attacking and arresting unarmed worshippers at the holy site on Rammandon.
2. stop bombing Gaza
Israel returned and repeated the desecration of the Al Aqsa Mosque in 2022 and 2023. Hamas warned Israel repeatedly that there would be consequenses for violating the 2021 ceasefire agreement. What did Israel expect?
Hamas is justified as an occupied people to resist according to international law. Israel was justified in killing the resistance fighters who came over their borders on 10/7 but not commit collective punishment and genocide on the occupied people across their borders.
Your “obvious “ answer will never work, because while trying to destroy Hamas most of the casualties are ordinary Palestinian civilians, which will ultimately just breed more hatred against Israel.
Very cavalier answer. Israelis are killing far more civilians than Hamas. Most of the victims are women and children, which constitutes war crimes. Israelis are just so despicable.
The IDF raided the Al Aqsa mosque repeatedly, killing people at prayer. In your eyes that's probably better than defacing artifacts.
Violence begets. It can never end a conflict.
Richard, violence did not end WWI; it set the stage instead for the triumph of Communism, Fascism, WWII, and the Holocaust. Wars seldom end with peace treaties; they are often followed by more wars, and even genocide.
Richard, war is not politics, it's the result of the break down of politics. War is a return to savagery.
no, WW1 led directly to WW2
But how many more wars followed! We are now on the verge of nuclear distruction! Have you given up on life and the human experiment?
Israel was created as a ethno-state, for Jews only. An ethno-state is not a democracy. A democracy maintains that all people are created equal. Israel therefore must ethnically cleanse and/or kill the "enemy" in this case non-Jews to have a racially pure superior race, or master race or as the Zionists call it, God's chosen people. Invariably this leads to the logical "Final Solution" - genocide.
How did that work for Hitler? Did it bring about peace? Or war? Now we are on the brink of WW3.
Your last statement is patently false. 75 years of brutal Israeli occupation and subjugation are what provoked Arab attacks. Jewish Voice for Peace has put out a timeline of the events leading up to the Oct. 7 attacks which makes for interesting reading.
Israel's savagery is on full display in its current action in Gaza
Yes Israel gave warning. Leave the north , go south, and we will bomb you there.
Your evidence please! Here's mine. Daniel Solomon on this thread shared it with me. It comes in handy now! https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2015/05/gaza-palestinians-tortured-summarily-killed-by-hamas-forces-during-2014-conflict/
Israel tells us not to believe our lying eyes even with genocide being streamed on a daily basis.
Sue, using the word genocide loosely, and altering your figures to support your arguments sway no one with any understanding of the current situation Israel faces now. If you took as much time to invest inyour unfounded defense of the Palestinian cause as you also neglect to do when viewing the operation that Israel was placed in confronting, you might learn to be more tolerant.
What figures do you think is inaccurate?
Now Hamas is back in the north after Israel declared it eradicated. If Israel has the right of self-defence so does Hamas, after all they are the occupied party for 17 years. Israel is in violation of international law since 1948.
Does Gaza really have autonomy when it is barricaded on all sides? They don't control their water, food imports, medicine, no building materials are allowed in even though Israel has been bombing them off and on for 17 years. Their airport was destroyed, their sea port was destroyed, their economy destroyed. How is that an autonomous state???!! Thats an occupied state.
You are single minded Richard. Wow. Sad but
You certainly prove many of the points being made in these threads. 🙏🏽
Just collateral damage, those lives.
In your illustration Cuba would have to be surrounded and barricaded from all sides, an open air prison created by the US, an occupation. To be comparable the US would be controlling the water, food, electricity, travel, medicine, banning building supplies while at the same time bombing Cuba every couple of years to "mow the grass" meaning cut down the population. Now imagine that the US and Cuba had a cease fire agreement that:
1. US had to stop the bombing and in return Cuba would stop the rockets into FL.
2. US would be required to stop attacks of unarmed worshipers at their holy places on Easter.
Now back to real time 10/7. The attack was called the Al Aqsa Flood. This was because the last cease fire agreement in May 2021 required Israel to:
1. withdraw from the Al Aqsa Mosque and stop attacking and arresting unarmed worshippers at the holy site on Rammandon.
2. stop bombing Gaza
Israel returned and repeated the desecration of the Al Aqsa Mosque in 2022 and 2023. Hamas warned Israel repeatedly that there would be consequenses for violating the 2021 ceasefire agreement. What did Israel expect?
Hamas is justified as an occupied people to resist according to international law. Israel was justified in killing the resistance fighters who came over their borders on 10/7 but not commit collective punishment and genocide on the occupied people across their borders.
So you believe deradicalization will occur when genocide and ethnic cleansing is used against unarmed women and children? How would you feel if it was you and your family? Would you start loving Israel and the US?
Do you feel good about the genocide and ethnic clesnsing of Gaza? How will you feel about WW3?
They throw rocks because the Israeli police are not supposed to be there interfering with unarmed worshippers on the holy month of Ramadan. Does throwing rocks deserve indefinite detention of women and children and death by genocide? The police are protected head to toe and carry military assault weapons. Its Goliath against David, literally. David used a slingshot just as the Palestinians do. In the current situation rock throwing is symbolic resistance since the police are shielded head to toe. No injuries are sustained because of it.
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2015/05/gaza-palestinians-tortured-summarily-killed-by-hamas-forces-during-2014-conflict/
The Al Aqsa Mosque is under the independent administration of the Jerusalem Waqf not Israel. Israeli police and/or military is not allowed on the compound. The Israeli police action was also in violation of the Israel/Hamas ceasefire agreement in May 2021. Israel violated the ceasefire several times over a two year period. Hamas therefore had a right, even a duty, to strike back. As you point out, self-defence and war go hand in hand. Whats good for the gander is good for the goose. Maybe the US should have stepped in and reigned Israel in when they repeatedly violated the 2021 ceasefire. Hamas repeatedly warned Israel and the international community that they would respond militarily. Hamas gave two years warning before striking back.
What would the world do if a foreign government sent its military to the Vatican during Christmas to harrass and arrest unarmed worshippers?
Israel violated the 2021 cease fire repeatedly. How is that a responsible nation??!!
As far as the occupation question, look it up.
Where did you live?
You have a singular point of view that proves the point of the original article. It has nothing to do with naïveté. It is simply one sides inability to see beyond their own point of view and hatred and history. The inability to see government Zionism as distinctly different than an Israeli and Hamas as distinctly different than a Palestinian. Your hatred and anger cannot be hidden behind the words you use not the supposed examples you use.
In your illustration Cuba would have to be surrounded and barricaded from all sides, an open air prison created by the US, an occupation. To be comparable the US would be controlling the water, food, electricity, travel, medicine, banning building supplies while at the same time bombing Cuba every couple of years to "mow the grass" meaning cut down the population. Now imagine that the US and Cuba had a cease fire agreement that:
1. US had to stop the bombing and in return Cuba would stop the rockets into FL.
2. US would be required to stop attacks of unarmed worshipers at their holy places on Easter.
Now back to real time 10/7. The attack was called the Al Aqsa Flood. This was because the last cease fire agreement in May 2021 required Israel to:
1. withdraw from the Al Aqsa Mosque and stop attacking and arresting unarmed worshippers at the holy site on Rammandon.
2. stop bombing Gaza
Israel returned and repeated the desecration of the Al Aqsa Mosque in 2022 and 2023. Hamas warned Israel repeatedly that there would be consequenses for violating the 2021 ceasefire agreement. What did Israel expect?
Hamas is justified as an occupied people to resist according to international law. Israel was justified in killing the resistance fighters who came over their borders on 10/7 but not commit collective punishment and genocide on the occupied people across their borders.
It is ridiculous that we have not normalized relations with Cuba Ilike Obama started to. I wish Biden would.
You stole their homeland and killed them in the hundreds of thousands. Or had you forgotten? Since when is Jehovah a real estate developer?
Alden, you should join tRump's cult. You're obviously subject to the absurd!
and you should learn the actual facts instead of believing the lies in your echo chamber,
The atrocities that we and our Allie’s committed during WW II is no justification for what Israel is doing in Gaza. Stop trying to justify Israel’s war crimes.
So everything Israel does is right, despite its committing innumerable war crimes and murdering thousands of children.
I'd hardly call the Oct. 7 attack second only to the Holocaust.
Israel is committing its own holocaust; it's become the 21st century Nazis.
"Bomber" Harris - Allied Bomber Command - RAF and joint Allied forces ...
"Name one moral act of war " ?
Personally not a fan of religious wars or even Rumsfeld like religious oil wars.
But the American medical systems does a bang up job of killing millions of Americans - I'll give 'em that.
Makes me wish I were a student at Dartmouth! This is a good way for many divergent thoughts to have thoughtful discussions not the usual I am right and you are wrong. Neither side is right or wrong. Getting into the core documents helps set the scene more realistically. Thank you for posting this.
Party line
Richard, have you ever asked yourself why one side wants the other side dead? Feelings like that do not evolve in a vacuum.
How wonderful to know that such a class is being taught. Having spent a good deal of time in the last few months reading everything I can find about the history of the Mandate and the post 1948 period as well as some contemporary literary pieces, I have come to see how complex the issues in this region are and, as your colleague puts it, how actors could not have the benefit of hindsight in understanding ramifications of their acts. I don't know what the solution ultimately will or can be but I am encouraged that civil discourse regarding the underlying issues is occurring somewhere on the planet.
Party line
Look, Richard, everyone on here has heard the Zionist/Likud/Jewish National Front party line ad nauseam and the Hamas/PLO party line ad nauseam. If nothing else, they are boring--and totally inappropriate in response to a thoughtful, nuanced essay like this. If you have nothing new or thoughtful to say, even if it's just new to you, why don't you just save yourself some time and aggravation and watch TV or go for a walk instead of boiler-plating in the same-old, same-old? You can assume we know it.
No it isn't Maureen. I have been a subscriber for a number of years. This thread is the first time I've seen people I respect come out in defense of Israel. Usually, we get a lot of Israel has the right to defend itself followed by with two hands tied behind their back.
You need to read a bit more widely.
How DARE you call this article anti-semitic? You desecrate all the Jewish lives destroyed or maimed by real anti-semitism
Hamas hides in their tunnels until an opportunity presents itself for them to kill, torture, and kidnap Israelis. Then they melt back into the communities that they claim to represent. They hide their weapons and fire their missiles from within these communities drawing the fire of the Israeli military. As long as the people allow themselves to be lead by Hamas, there will never be peace. Hamas is committed to the destruction of Israel.
And right now it seems that Israel is committed to the destruction of Gaza
Israel will never eliminate Hamas. They will however destroy the Gaza homeland making it impossible for any Palestinian survivors to return home. Then Israel can occupy the land and ask the US to help rebuild.
We are missing the economics. Please help here! How did Iran provide the huge economy to build such structurally complicated tunnels along with all the weapons for Hamas. How could the “religious “ leadership of Iran justify Islamic terrorists of Hamas set up communities of 50% Islamic children to be used as a shield against Israeli retaliation. Where is the Iranian investment needed to build healthy Palestinian communities??? It’s being used to foil the growth of American economic partnerships in the area.
Guess why!!!
This is beautiful, and a tiny beacon of hope. The core essence is this sentence: “For protracted conflicts like the Arab-Israeli one,” Ezzedine reflected, “blame is a waste of time. The key is to understand, not justify, why people behave the way they do..."
And with understanding the issues, one may progress to seeing those issues from the nominal opponent's perspective, and that is the foundation on which reconciliation or lasting compromise can be built.
Blame was assigned at the Nuenberg trials. Justice is needed. This is not a "both are to blame". Hitler and the Jews were not a both sides problem. The Nazis at the Charlottesville rally was not "good people on both sides". Zionism is the flip side of the same racist, fascist coin. The other side of the coin is Nazism. One believes the Aryan White race is the superior race. The other believes the Jews are the superior race, God's chosen people. This ideology makes the other sub-human and deserving of genocide.
Sue, your comment is a little confusing to me. First, the actions judged ("blamed" is hardly a relevant word) at Nuremberg were not part of a "protracted conflict"; they were part of a blitzkrieg against humanity, which was brought to a swift (on the scale of international events) conclusion, and deterrence was the goal, not getting an edge in a protracted conflict.
Second, it isn't clear what ideology you're referring to in the final sentence. It seems like you're saying that belief in "superior races" will only lead to destructive consequences (even to include genocide), and I believe that is absolutely true. So maybe we're agreeing; I just can't tell for sure.
I know there are a few prominent Israeli politicians who espouse what is effectively a mirror image of the "superior race" vendetta of the Nazis (I read about them in Haaretz, which I subscribe to). Fortunately, they are not really the majority. Netanyahu was brought to power by superficial electorate thinking which wanted a strongman to quickly deal with troublesome Arabs without going through the hard work of negotiations (such as Yitzhak Rabin did). These Arabs are not Nazis; they are people who feel aggrieved at the harm done to their ancestors and the loss of their land. That grievance may appear huge or negligible according to perspective, but good-faith negotiation has a chance with it. Only if it's good faith.
Until you recognize why some Palestinians want Israeli Jews (NOT ALL JEWS) dead you will never be able to solve this issue except by killing more Palestinians, a stance you have taken many time just today alone. What kind of a human does that make you? A pretty stupid one in my opinion.
Unfortunately you did not help (and clearly had no intention of doing so).
Here is my solution: "“That which is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow. That is the entire Torah, and the rest is commentary. Now go and study.”
Wow! This is what some of us expect of colleges and institutions of learning!
What strikes me most about this essay is the immensely delicate kid gloves with which the subject is treated, a testament to its rawness. But there is ultimately very little nuance to this conflict. The jews, with collective ptsd from the German horrors, stole Palestinian land and insist on conflating Palestinians with nazis deserving of systematic cruelty and endless punishment. The Palestinians, full of the rage of slaves, and are even more barbaric in intention if not in capacity. October 7 was Nat Turner. Gaza is the white response. Everyone loses.
Don't know if such Frankness will catch on with this forum, but be my guest.
Other universities should follow this model. It will help promote understanding and keep the peace on campuses.
On a comment in the essay: "ZIONIST PIONEERS, the precursors of Israel’s liberals, were secular modernizers who were appalled by the rabbinic strictures that alienated Jews in Eastern European cities." Netayahu's extremist coalition now wants to bring back those strictures, amplified if possible.
You ignore the influence of politics, Carolyn. According to a 2022 study from the National Association of Scholars, Qatar today is the largest foreign donor to American universities. The study found that between 2001 and 2021, the petrostate donated a whopping $4.7 billion to U.S. colleges. The largest recipients are some of America’s most prestigious institutions of higher learning.
Contrary to its image as a World Cup-hosting, benevolent education-funding country, Qatar uses its $750 billion – $1 trillion worth of assets to spread political Islamism and antisemitism around the world. The country notoriously supports the global Muslim Brotherhood, and antisemitism has been central to the Brotherhood’s ideology since its founding in Egypt in 1928, 20 years before Israel was founded.
The two state solution won't work as long as Hamas and the surrounding Arab countries who support them want to eradicate Jews entirely. That is the actual written goal of Hamas. So if Israel is "occupying" territory, it's to prevent its use in attacking them. Proximity is the problem. If there must be 22 instead of 21 Arab nations, one called Palestine, it should be moved further away from Israel so Hamas will not be present anywhere near Israel, won't be able to trap civilians in a war zone with the surrounding Arab countries' help, won't be able to tunnel in to commit acts of terrorism or to launch rockets from rooftops. Move it to the far end of Saudi Arabia. But frankly, given the human rights violations, especially to women, of these repressive countries, one less Arab country would be no tragedy. There is only one teeny tiny Jewish homeland, and it didn't just pop up with Jews suddenly appearing there, they've lived there for centuries before, even in the time of Jesus when the then-Palestinians were known as Philistines. Israel has over two million Arab citizens who have full rights of citizenship unlike the propaganda being spread to the contrary. There are many Arab countries that have zero Jews, so who's the apartheid nation? Israel does not owe Palestine land. Palestine and the surrounding Arab countries owed Israel the ability to live in peace. They stole that from them by enabling Hamas to take power there and their continued financial support, their continuous propaganda painting Israel as the bully, when they've been the ones who've been attacked in an effort to entirely eradicate Jews from their own homeland, with false claims that it belongs to Palestine. It sickens me that fellow liberals who support Democracy and many of whom are fighting against Trump to preserve our Democracy, somehow take the side of Hamas and the repressive Arab countries who destroy democracy and deny human rights, especially to gay people and women.
Well said! Jean, you expressed my thoughts and feelings. Sometimes, I believe people are intentionally blind to the truth. Jew hatred began with Paul, who wanted to create a new religion. Both Christians and Jews followed Jesus teachings. Paul realized to be successful he would have to choose one group above the other. He chose the Christians. His hateful sermons were continued by churches throughout our history all over the world. Jews are the infidels! It is only quite recently that Jew hatred has been frowned upon in religious institutions, but it is alive and well in Christian fundamentalist churches today! We are seeing the results of this in many of the comments supporting Hamas on this thread.
Thanks. It's frustrating, because everyone can easily see the propaganda attack with Trump claiming not to have lost the last election, but they don't see through the Palestinian claims that Israel took their land from them for no reason. Even knowing there are so many Arab countries with the kind of wealth that can generate propaganda and disburse it, many fail to recognize their obvious lies. They want to call Golda Meier a liar and believe Arafat, it seems. So many Palestinians are actually from other Arab countries. Arafat was from Egypt, and Egypt is one country who has been keeping their borders closed preventing civilians from escaping. Also where is the outcry and the pictures of Israeli civilians being bombed by Hamas? There are so many graphics and photos of Palestinians claiming it's Israel killing civilians there, but no focus at all on the reason they are launching counterattacks is because Hamas is killing Israeli civilians, too. At least Israel will warn before a counter-attack, which if Hamas and the surrounding Arab countries weren't deliberately preventing their escape just so they can put out this type of publicity about their civilian casualties, they would be able to flee the war zone to safety. They are keeping them there just to be able to spread this propaganda and hate. Hamas and the surrounding Arab countries are the one responsible for every civilian death and injury they are trying to blame on Israel.
Jean, once again you are seeing what I see. When conditioned to be a democrat or republican rom the time you're able to understand language and respond, the conditioning sticks. In the same way, when your parents and family and church conditions you to think of Jews as other or hateful, chances are you'll absorb those beliefs. It takes a mind that is willing to step outside the box, use critical analysis, delve into the history by not reading what you already believe, that you get an unusual individual not guided only by the dogma he or she has been spoon fed.
Was there any inclusion in the classroom discussions of the Qu'ran? It calls for conversion to Islam by the sword if necessary. And we see it happening in Africa now. And what about the killings in Yemen, Syria, and recent attacks in Pakistan, Iran and India? Iran's state goal is to establish another caliphate and that requires the removal of Israel and then who will be next? They are fighting amongst themselves killing hundreds of thousands. Can they really lay claim to be the religion of peace?
I think it probably isn't fair to use whatever translation of the Quran you are talking about. There's some pretty awful things in the Bible. I actually had a Palestinian friend who grew up in Egypt attend a seder once, and when I read some of those words in the Hagaddah knowing he was at our table, I was horrified. Probably better to keep religious text out of this.
Your comment reminds me of Netanyahu's comparison of the Gazans to Amalek in the Bible. South Africa noted this in the section of its ICJ filing that recounts the annihilationist statements by Israeli politicians that arguably indicate genocidal intent.
Yep.
But it provides and understanding of the violence that people use to justify their actions. The version I have is the most popular one by Ali but critiques have pointed out that it is not always accurate. But it is horrifying enough!
So's the Bible. Some of my Muslim friends have discussed their understanding of their religion with me. I don't doubt their sincerity. There's pretty horrible stuff in the Bible!
How's it going Herb.
You mention the Jews who returned in Israel in the early 20th century but seems to completely forget about the Jews that had always lived there, descendants of the Jews that the Romans didn't succeed in driving out of the Jewish homeland. (One of the original examples of Euro ethnocleansing). It is a very Eurocentric viewpoint that Israel is populated by the Jews we, in Europe, are familiar with and thus it is populated by Jjohnny come latelies while ignoring that most of the Arabs living in that area actually arrived seeking economic opportunities when the British had the mandate.
Among other places for the Jewish state to be formed were at one time proposed in Argentina and even Madagascar. But the Middle East it became. Maybe for the biblical historical aspect. Which are being leveraged by the corrupt apartheid Israeli neocon leader and cabinet members. One thing though. If it weren't for our long standing military oil hoarding interests in the Middle East. Senator Joe Biden would never have stated in 1986 that, "If there weren't an Israel, we'd have to invent one".
For sure though, if we were to stop suppling all the means for the IDF to inflict the ongoing genocide in Palestine. The Israeli's maybe would perhaps be inclined to contemplate a two state solution or even just trying to get along with another ethnic group within its border. But they've perpetually been enhanced with the capability to have the upper hand with our military services for them.
That's been our country's M.O. though. To invoke our interests on others. To keep our advantage. Using others to leverage our position. The Ukrainians, the Israelis. You name it if it furthers our "national interests".
This ongoing tragedy has our hands all over it. And Joe Biden's. But our political and special interest groups don't seem to have a clue other than maintaining the neocon objectives that create havoc around the world. Thing is, those objectives never seem to work out too well. But it never deters them to keep at it over and over again.
Yes! This is the heart of what intellectual and educational discourse is really all about. It’s also why the term “university” needs to be clearly understood and why these institutions cannot be viewed as “job factories”. (Which they were never intended to be). Universities need to be seen as institutions that allow students to embrace the entire range of experiences they care to take on and how to seek knowledge in any area they choose. Hence the term “university”.
TBH I'm not fan of how the CCP - made a move on many US Universities with the Confucious Institute or whatever it was called.
That's hard to do when you have one side of the argument putting their thumb on the scale of justice. Are you aware of Qatar's role in the current antisemitic violence on college campuses? According to a 2022 study from the National Association of Scholars, Qatar today is the largest foreign donor to American universities. The study found that between 2001 and 2021, the petrostate donated a whopping $4.7 billion to U.S. colleges. The largest recipients are some of America’s most prestigious institutions of higher learning.
Contrary to its image as a World Cup-hosting, benevolent education-funding country, Qatar uses its $750 billion – $1 trillion worth of assets to spread political Islamism and antisemitism around the world. The country notoriously supports the global Muslim Brotherhood, and antisemitism has been central to the Brotherhood’s ideology since its founding in Egypt in 1928, 20 years before Israel was founded.
But Eadie - Qatar is our ally - 🙀
In name only and when it benefits them financially.
Prof. Reich noted that Dartmouth is rural. It's thus relatively insulated from outside groups, politicians, and doxing trucks. I wonder if this sort of de-escalation could have happened at more urban campuses like Harvard, Columbia, Penn, and Yale.
Good point. Living next to Columbia/Barnard, I am aware that it became a political issue immediately rather than an opportunity for intellectual exploration.
There may also be something to the "it is but a small college but there are those who love it" thing. Dartmouth may be less socially fragmented than larger, more urban Ivy schools or a place like Berkeley. Although Dartmouth has right wing alums, there also doesn't seem to have been a big Dartmouth donor like Bill Ackman or Marc Rowan.
DINNYC wrote: "Prof. Reich noted that Dartmouth is rural "
OK but when and where did "Bob" make that specific statement?
You're right. It was actually made by Bernard Avishai in the piece. "Dartmouth is isolated and nested in an almost unnervingly lovely New Hampshire river valley...." The essay also appears in this morning's The New Yorker online.
The New Yorker online wanted me to hand over cash - to even read it !
And it's algorithms incorrectly assert that I had been looking at digital copy too many times.
So my wife is out and about and will buy a PAPER copy to verify it's existence / due diligence + other articles and stories etc.
The digital world of smoke and mirrors really.
And published in print before then ~ Feb 2nd 2024.
The Dartmouth introduction [in youtube form seems particularly disturbing - but I don't have time today. ]. A disturbing artifact of failures of modern journalism.
University is not for this IMO - but Dartmouth is now the cradle of American leaders - politicians and Statesmen and Women.
Definitely not for me.
^^^ In both senses of that meaning (two different ways through the prism )