Mr. Reich is correct, Trump Republicans must not reward Putin’s aggression period!
Trump’s only strength
He plays on your weaknesses!
(The opposite of Bravery is Fealty to a dictator wannabe!) What has happened to THE HOME OF THE BRAVE? The GOP has become a herd of sheep.
It’s indefensibly deplorable that members of their own party were receiving Death Threats because they didn’t vote for Jim Jordan to be Speaker of the House! Then they voted unanimously for MAGA Mike Johnson! Heather Cox Richardson noted that Mike Johnson’s 2018 campaign accepted money from a group of Russian nationals, and he has said he does not support additional funding for Ukraine in its fight against Russian aggression! Not one Republican representative abstained or voted against the new Speaker of the House. I think we should start calling them the Marshmallow Party! Or maybe the Domino Party in a perfect line behind the treasonous cult leader.
To the 76 million who voted for Trump, how does it make you feel when you are aligned with racism, xenophobia, islamophobia, homophobia, misogyny, and bigotry!
It used to make your stomach turn if you had any decency. What changed? Think about all the fallen soldiers that gave their lives to protect our Constitution and our Country. Hundreds of thousands of Americans have died defending us!
Are you also saying now that they were losers and suckers like the FPOTUS?
Think long and hard about whether you would rather live in a free country, where we the people pick our leaders, the present U.S., or a country with an autocratic form of government which is led by a Dictator, or a group of leaders, who hold governmental powers with few to no limitations, typically favoring loyalty over competence in their governments and have a general distrust of intelligentsia. Elites in personalist dictatorships often do not have a professional political career and are unqualified for positions they are given. Sound familiar? And your rights and freedoms that you have now are relinquished.
Your most important right, the right to vote would mean nothing!!!
“America can’t afford to support Israel and Ukraine simultaneously.”
I heard this yesterday from a senior House Republican who wants to send additional billions to Israel but not to Ukraine. It’s a foolish and misleading position. Of course we can afford to send additional aid to Ukraine even if we’re also sending aid to Israel. Trump Republicans must not reward Putin’s aggression."
That's >exactly< what I argued a few days ago concerning the fishy timing of the initial Hamas attack. I still >suspect< coordination by Tehran on behalf of Moscow, because it opens a second front on Ukraine, just as US support for Ukraine is vulnerable. Although Israel is a Tehran objective unto itself, even if Hamas had been planning such a strike for a long time, it's ultimately about supporting Moscow in Ukraine - as a strategic consequence. It's all about the trajectory of the thrust. 9 ball banked into corner pocket after kissing off the 8 ball into the side pocket - if you can visualize the trajectory of a pool shot.
I think all these events happening when they did was just part of the plan of a 2nd coup attempt with all the major players involved !! Dumpster gives/sells info like nuclear information to his "special friend" Putin who gives/sells this info to Iran who gives/sells to Hamas/Hesballah who needs to do a little favor for Putin ! Meanwhile the repugnants fvck up the government and cause chaos and mayhem , refuse to do anything to help its citizens but instead get all the repugnants to lose their ever loving minds and vote to have the worst douche bag women-hating , xenophobic, arrogant , bigoted , misogynistic,racist, religious zealot to be 2nd in line for the presidency and who has already stated that the election of 2020 was stolen and got a bunch of other asshats in congress to get on board his lawsuit !! So that's what's happening in the world today ! Just a little thing called democracy going down the drain !!
Kimberlee - I think you nailed it. I think it's bigger than anyone ever imagined, and as "sensible" people characterize as delusional "conspiracy". But it's real. bombs are real. the coup attempt is real. the proliferation of billionaires, with no allegiance except to their money, is real. the climate destructing in front of our eyes is real. and we fiddle on as the world burns.
An interesting comment; I'm trying to figure out to whom you're responding. Nevertheles, I do agree with you in the larger sense.
If you've read my posts, you know that I despise capitalism, colonialism, consumerism, etc. etc. We are comfortably nursing our too hot/cold lattes while the world burns, while children are bombed to pieces. So what should we do?
As a young child, I was told and read a short story in which a precocious rabbit had a confrontation with a figure made entirely of tar. The dark figure irritated the rabbit immensely because of his failure to communicate. Outraged by the figure's silent arrogance the rabbit punched the tar baby. His hand became stuck in the blackened goo and the more he tried to get free the "stuckyer" he became. Rage became his own undoing, the tar image ensnared the rabbit until at length he collapsed from complete exhaustion. Then from the thicket, Brer Fox emerged to claim his prize, a rabbit dinner. Ham'as has lured the Israeli military into a death trap, not that dissimilar from the tar baby scenario in the story "Song of the South." The harder the Israeli military fights the more they will become entangled in the web Ham'as has spun for them. Then when Gaza is still smoldering the rest of the Islamic Middle East will move in and inundate what is left of the Israeli nation, and we want to get involved in that. Zippity Doo Dah.
More likely it is a reflection of a change of season. Heat expands the volume and the volumetric tire pressure. Cooler temperatures causes the volume to compress and probably a little leakage around the rim.
I seriously don't know if anyone was prescient enough to plan this all out as clearly as this, but the gains in strategic positioning on the Right are clear and horrible.
Israeli victims of the monstrous terror attack (along with foreign visitors among those killed and among the hostages) and Palestinians under massive and brutal retaliatory attack are mere collateral damage to demagogues now planning how to solidify their advantage while their electorates are in shock.
I’ve read that because the Czars of Russia wanted an ideologically pure country (everyone a member in good standing of the Orthodox Church), Jews were encouraged to settle in Ukraine and Poland. Result: easy targets for Hitler, who also wanted an ideologically and “racially” pure country. Seems obvious to me that “1 country, 1 people” causes suffering on the grandest scale. This is why, unless Israel wants continual or continuous warfare, it needs to write a constitution with a built-in bill of rights, and establish an equal-opportunity programs for citizens of Israel who are not Jewish. This approach seems to be working in the USA.
Opening another front in the Middle East to better sustain his aggression on Ukraine, though there seems to be no positive element proving it, would suit quite well Putin's playbook. He surprised a lot of people when he almost cried on TV, a week or so ago, about the plea of Gazans. If he fomented with Iran the Hamas 10/7 attack, then it could be rightly said that Benjamin Netanyahu is the blood-thirsty, useful idiot presently fulfilling Putin's dream of ending a free Ukraine. Violence is blind.
Exactly. It's like a global chess game. Russians are champion chess players and the Persians - Tehran - invented the damn game! On the other hand, it's all diplomacy, as well. And as ol' Beau likes to say: "diplomacy is like a poker game in which everyone is cheating."
Good point, Lynn. So, when prior to his 'military operations' into Ukraine began, Putin strongly had suggested negotiations to correct the - for the Russians - intolerable strategic situation on the Russian-European borders, and when NATO and the EU ignored his plea, then, as you say, according to Clausewitz, there was no other way to go than war.
I'm being serious, by the way - not ironic. The Russians, not just Putin, regarded NATO's membership expansion right up to Russia's borders during the 1990s as provocative and a threat to Russia's strategic security. Putin sought a readjustment but NATO stubbornly wanted to hold on to their advantage. They in effect turned down diplomacy.
Everyone was quick to judge Russia and justly. For outlawing protests, and killing civilians and much more, Israel did all the same things at much quicker pace, and has called the people of Palestine animals and worse, here we support all the same things we condemned when Russia was doing them.
"Israel did the same thing" Yes, after their babies were beheaded, children were murdered at a music festival and now there is clear and convincing evidence with audio and video that Hamas has its base of operations under Shifa hospital all with tunnels going into the interior of the hospital. Hundreds of gallons of fuel were found, enough to last for Hamas to continue killing for 4 months. In addition, Hamas has been killing Palestinians fleeing to the south as Israel instructed. Food and water entering Gaza has been prevented from entering Gaza by them NOT Israel. The Ahia hospital was not hit by Israel, but a failed rocket launch by HAMAS. How many times does Israel have to prove their innocence. Blaming Israel is an old trope Hitler used to climb to power. Do we need to make the same mistake as Germany before we recognize that this is a propaganda war that China, Russia, Iran are playing and there winning as evidenced by you.
The majority of everything you typed here is propaganda talking points that can be disproven or at a bare minimum not proven. If Biden said it, better double check it are good words to live by
"Food and water entering Gaza has been prevented from entering Gaza by them NOT Israel." Do you mean that the Israeli government did not decide that, even though they said they did, or do you mean that people in Gaza had it coming because of the atrocities perpetrated by Hamas on 10/7? In either case, you, my friend, are the first victim of the propaganda war frenzy you blame others for falling into. Giving oneself license to kill entire populations is a war crime, wherever you look at it from.
You sound entirely elitest with your "not well traveled" statement. Maybe you should take into account not everyone has the money to be well traveled... Before you make such statements.
It's just a chance to hang everything on Russia, I don't think this is Putin's work either, it was allegedly planned for 2 years, and I somewhat believe that. Or Israel let it happen so they could get on with some next level atrocities genocide and land theft, who knows.
Charles, - Well, when attempted diplomacy failed in Ukraine, what Putin did was to turn to Syria in September 2015 and help the Assad government militarily. He was hoping that this strategic move would distract NATO from their plans in Ukraine or induce NATO to seek a negotiated peace deal re: the European-Russian border. It didn't work, but it did result in a closer friendship between Putin and Assad.
NATO's military involvement in Ukraine, and the West's exaggerated fear and loathing of China, has pushed Russia closer to China. Not a brilliant strategy by NATO! We now have two enemies instead of one. And we have provoked and renewed China's claim to Taiwan.
Then, the U.S.'s sabotage of the oil/gas line under the Baltic Sea last year will most likely have long-term negative consequences for the relationship between the U.S. and EU. The EU will never forget this stark example of U.S. industrial and trade warfare against the EU. Another brilliant strategic move by the U.S. within the NATO alliance!
Robert, - Your use of hashtags mystify me. I'm obviously not as modern - or postmodern - as you and find them hard to decipher. However, I did watch your video clip, about the traditional European practice of blaming of the Jews for everything under the sun. So, I have a comment - an example from my hometown of Oslo, c. 1953.
We had a housekeeper who was profoundly Christian (whereas I had a mother who was an evangelical atheist). One Sunday our housekeep invited me to come to church with her. The church was the Oslo Cathedral, easily the largest church in Oslo. Really, I was there in order to report back to my mother about the latest absurdity that the Lutheran ministers had dreamed up of late. (Our housekeeper didn't know that I had this hidden agenda). Anyway, I found myself taking a keen interest in the sermon of the day: it was all about how 'the Jews had killed Jesus'. Now, I was under the general impression that Jesus - also - was a Jew; and so I couldn't understand why the priest was banging on about 'the Jews' killing a fellow Jew. What was extraordinary about that? Ten years earlier, during the German occupation of Norway, we had seen Norwegians killing Norwegians. In fact, Vidkun Quisling - the Norwegian traitor - had been a part of this domestic bloodletting. So, why this priest's mystifying emphasis on 'the Jews' killing Jesus, I wondered. And why would a priest - a loving Christian, of all men - want to blame 'the Jews' barely ten years after the Norwegian Nazis had, in cohot with their German friends, dispatched practially every Norwegian Jew to German extermination camps? (And only a handful of them returned after the war).
I don't know how our housekeeper explained away the priest's sermon. But yes, I'm well aware of antisemitism - even, sadly, in my country of origin.
When all else fails, look away from the obvious. We blame, blame, blame while the real magicians are treating the world to their slight of hand. Is it Hamas? Hezzbollah, Iran, Iraq, Tehran, Russia...follow the 💰. Never lose sight of our good friends in Saudi Arabia who always have their hands somewhere in the pot, quietly stirring behind the scenes.
Gaza as a second front in Ukraine. Hamas, Iran, and Russia working concert with perfect timing. The ascendancy of The Heritage Foundation’s favorite son Mike Johnson to be Speaker, wrapped in a MAGA flag. The countdown toward the 2024 election. Master chess player Putin with his many puppet strings in play. The timing of it all. This is really beginning to read like a Robert Ludlum bestseller. I only wish it was fiction.
In deference to objections others have stated here, I don't think Putin ordered the move - directly. More likely, it's Tehran lending what assistance it can to an ally, by launching an attack they probably had already planned. It's just the exact timing of the attack that serves Putin's interest. Otherwise, I think Hamas would've launched at whatever time Tehran might have otherwise directed. Tehran's only task was to choose the best time to pull the trigger.
That's why I shocked folks in discussion the other day by saying that if Israel >must< go to war, they should mount a massive strike on Tehran, rather than risk slaughtering naked civilians, who are themselves captive human shields for Hamas. Go after the >real< enemy rather than falling into their trap. Of course, there was all the WWIII blowback on that idea. And just to be clear, I >know< that an attack on Tehran is a bad idea. However, when there are only bad ideas to bear, the least worst is the best alternative.
DZK, - It may be as you say. However, there are rumours that Hamas may have picked this particular time because Israel was preparing to settle another million Jewish settlers in the West Bank. Whether this is true, I don't know. - Putin was, after all, negotiating with Israel about closer ties. It could be that Hamas was trying to undermine those negotiations.
Not outside the realm of possibility, particularly if Tehran is advising them. However, Tehran would have an interest in disrupting those negotiations with their Moscow ally, too, no matter what the rumor mill was saying. Tehran is Israel's enemy, too. The question becomes whether Tehran - based on its own intelligence - told Hamas it's time to launch what they'd already been planning to do, or whether Hamas is acting on their own initiative. Keep in mind, the Hamas weapons came from somewhere and they had to have materiel support and expertise from somebody else to secretly construct the highly engineered honeycomb of tunnels from which they operate. It all comes down to the timing of their attack. Who decided this was the perfect time to launch?
As a further thought, I think Putin's only direct involvement with the Israel strike may have been limited to saying something to Tehran like: "Hey guys. They're killin' me in Ukraine. Help me out here. Is there something you can do?"
Tehran: "Why sure, Vlad. We'll call Hamas and tell them to throw the big party we already had planned."
Robert, excellent question by Malcom Nance. Nance usually hits the nail on the head. I would like anyone on this thread to answer one simple question. What would you propose to do after your friends, family and neighbors were brutally slaughtered as they were on 10/7?. It's easy to condemn the Hamas terrorism, not at all easy to answer my question. Supporters of the two sideism, moral equivalency arguments are mum on this question, but they are Jonny on the spot to condemn Israel's response to the 10/7 attack.
Eadie, - Because there is something called 'over-reaction' and 'disproportionate response'.
After the war - after the Holocauset became known - there were specualtions as to whether some individual Jew might have offended the young Hitler in some way, and whether this incident turned Hitler into a an anti-Semite. In other words, people wondered, did Hitler overreact, and was the Holocaust his disproportionate response? Killing a whole ethnic population.
Is Netanyahu and his cabinet about to do something similar in the Gaz strip? Collective punishment - admittedly on a smaller scale than the Holocause, but still enough to upset the so-called 'international community'. Is this what Hamas was counting on? Is Netanyahu playing into the hands of their opponent?
I'm saying it's Tehran - not Moscow. I suspect it was Tehran's plan all along. However, I think Tehran directed the timing of the assault - which they could've directed at any time - to assist their Muscovite ally's interest, just as Moscow's campaign is facing setbacks and Ukraine needs continued support from the US, while Congress was - at the time - in disarray. Even now, the US is passing unlimited support for Israel, while those who hold the US purse strings in Congress are - shall we say - less disposed toward Ukraine. That's why they've decoupled funding for Israel from funding for Ukraine instead of passing support for both in a single aid package. In just the same way, it's splitting congressional support for Ukraine, which serves Moscow. Funding for Ukraine could otherwise pass along with funding for Israel. It's now possible that funding for Ukraine could get voted down. That uncertainty aids Moscow, while Tehran's only objective is to get Israel to commit atrocity - for fun and recruiting. The Palestinians? To Tehran, they're holy martyrs.
Tim, - I agree. A common attitude - correlation, if you like - does not demonstrate cause-effect. It may be that Tehran's thinking coincided with Hamas'.
As far as I know Tehran backs both Hezbollah and Hamas financially and militarily, though in the case of the former the support is direct (Hamas are linked to the Muslim Brotherhood, which is Sunni). Its support for Hamas is opportunistic and political since it's opposed to the US and Israel. We should remember though that the last thing Tehran wants at this time is open war with either Israel or the US - it just can't afford it. The same can be said for all the other Arab nations in the region too. US support for Israel is being stretched to the limit by the unprecedented extent of its barbarism, racism and flouting of international law, which could easily cost Biden the presidency. Biden is an effective domestic President, but when it comes to foreign affairs he's completely out of his depth.
On the other hand, Russia was seeking closer ties with Israel. This wouldn't have been welcome news in Tehran or in Hamas' inner circles. It may be that both those leaderships decided to drive a wedge between Russia and Israel.
Also, rumour has it that Israel was planning to settle another million Jewish settlers in the West Bank. Hamas may have decided to give the Israeli government something else to focus on.
So there's apparently nothing that connects Russia directly to the Hamas attack. Right? Hamas launched an attack that they've been planning for a long time. Right? There's still instability in Congress regarding the upcoming budget negotiations that can possibly lead to another government shutdown, and US funding for Ukraine is in jeopardy while Israel funding is likely. Right? And interrupting US funding for Ukraine will serve Moscow's interest. Right? And for some reason, better relations with Israel still serves Moscow's interest. Right? So how would the attack have any impact on Moscow's diplomatic effort with Israel when Moscow is apparently not involved? Now, Moscow could even - disingenuously - offer their help as a peace broker.
DZK, - Yes, and Russia i the UN Security Council presented a plan that included a ceasefire, and this was voted down by the U.S. and UK! So, Russia's standing among the Palestinians and Arab states and Iran will now have improved a good deal.
Since Moscow isn't >apparently< involved, they could conceivably continue on their diplomatic track with Israel and even cynically offer to help out as a peace broker.
DZK< - Well, Russia is now off-track diplomatically with Israel. And yes, Russia is in a position to offer themselves as peace negotiators. However, given Jordan's prominence on the UN Security Council, it seems more likely that Jordan will be accepted by both sides as a negotiator. The U.S. and UK certainly won't be.
Understandable. Particularly if you're seeing it from a more personally relevant perspective. Let me hasten to add, it's what I >suspect< and not a statement of fact. If you understand it as that, a suspicion, a speculation, you may get exactly what I mean by saying it. Thanks for your effort in the first place, my friend.
I would like our country to understand that our unconditional support of Israel is not helping Israel nor us. Too much of our support has been for internal politics. This weakens us in the Middle East.
That I consider what you say is true is reflected in an earlier comment I made in this discussion concerning the religious right. As an Israeli or even as a US citizen of domestic, secular Jewish heritage, you have every right to distrust them. What they support in Israel is in support of their apocalyptic vision of Megiddo - aka Armageddon - which ushers in the final destruction of Israel and the return of their mythical savior. From >my< perspective, it's a "give 'em enough rope to hang 'emselves with" approach. Not the kind of ally >I'd< trust.
I’m an American as I presume you are. ? Support was principled to begin. Now it sounds principled but I think it’s entrenched and politically expedient. It will start to hurt more I think.
I agree with all of that concerning foreign aid. As for the rest, in the previous discussion I mention, I tried to make it clear that I >suspect< a connection, and suspicion does not equate to proof, although another contributor here provided a link he seems to believe supports what I suspect: https://apnews.com/article/russia-iran-hamas-israel-palestine-9b57f4322f57f3a6ff33e2908cb2a3ef
The article is about power brokering... talking, not about being responsible indirectly for the attack. I agree AP is pretty reliable. What is not reliable is how people read these stories and then take off.
What really happened on 10/7 of this year in Israel? Aside from the obvious carnage and the suffering what actually took place in that country? The Yom Kippur War of 1973 had an anniversary on the date in question along with it being a Jewish holiday that was celebrating the Festival of Sukkot. Things were so in line for an attack by Ham'as that a clone of Helen Keller could have seen the impending danger the stars were projecting. What if the intelligent forces inside of Israel knew fully well of a possible attack by Ham'as and did nothing to prevent it? Israel has been plagued by the terrorist efforts of this extremist group for decades. Knowing this, Israel's hands have been tied because of public opinion. The army failed to show up and come to the aid of the Israeli citizens being attacked by ham'as for hours, which is suspect. It is almost as if Netanyahu wanted the attack to continue giving his military the excuse he wanted in order to destroy Ham'as. Public opinion was now on his side. I understand it's a sick thought but that war involves people that aren't us and they don't share our thoughts on what is right and what is wrong. Netanyahu shows no signs of relenting in his attack on Ham'as and the suffering caused to the Palestine people for all intense purposes will continue unabated. Beware of a free man! Netanyahu offered the bait and Ham'as took it. The hook has been set and now the fight is on.
Donald, what you say is only partially true IMO. Jewish values are preached throughout the torah. Not nearly as much in the New testament, which is based on the old one and certainly not by the Muslims who worship the dead more than preserving those that are alive. They believe in Martyrdom. Jews have been persecuted by Christians for centuries, because they would not accept their savior Jesus Christ, a Jew. You'd have to be blind not to see the difference in Jewish values represented by Jews who are in Congress and the values of Christians or Muslims. I refer you to a comparison of values by leading Jewish, Christian, and Muslim Congress persons in the forefront of the current debate that involves keeping our democracy. Jamie Raskin, Adam Schiff, Daniel Goldman, Richard Blumenthal, Bernie Sanders, vs. McConnell, Cheney, tRump, Kevin McCarthy, MTG, Mike Johnson, AOC, Ilan Omar, Rashida Tlaib, Matt Gaetz.
Netanyahu has a lot more in common with Bush-2 than you may think. Both involve hubris. Both Bush 2 and Netanyahu were warned by their Intelligence officers that an attack was imminent. Bush-2 wanted to take advantage of all the political capital he thought his father squandered. He became a war time President being AWOL during 911. He was found in Florida reading "My Pet Goat" to a group of elementary school students. His actions resulted in the Iraq war. Netanyahu was AWOL because he believed Hamas was more bark than bite. He needed a Get-Out-of Jail Free card, and he thought the short lived skirmish would distract the public from his corruption. However, he and his right wing coalition are on their way out of power IMO. Thousands of Israelis have been protesting against him and his right wing coalition for 6 months. That's equal to millions of Americans. If the U.S. Congress had enabled the same devotion to Jewish values, a devotion to equality, honesty, and an adherence to the law, we wouldn't have had tRump as President or Mike Johnson as Speaker of the House.
An interesting take, consistent with other comments I've seen. I'll not argue against it, except to say that when given a choice between whether Netanyahu intended such a slaughter of Israeli citizens - not so innocent, since as I understand it, they chose to settle contested real estate - or being simply a self-serving moron, not really concerned with his people's well-being, I'll choose the latter option >every time.< Face it. Had he been concerned with the well-being of Israeli citizenry, he wouldn't have permitted settlement of contested real estate in the first place, opting for defensive emplacements instead, if anything. No. Netanyahu is a moron and he failed to pay attention to any intelligence warnings he may have received - sort of like the way I compare it to the attack on Pearl Harbor in a response elsewhere, although the Pearl Harbor failure may have had more mitigation. It was early radar, and it >could< have just been a goddam flock of birds!
DZK - I don't think Netanyahu is a moron, at all - except a moral moron. By not annexing the West Bank but instead making into an Occupied Territory, he can expand Israel in terms of land available for Jewish settlement without having to grant the Palestinians there any voting rights. It's rather clever. He MAY choose to do the same with the northern Gaza Strip - occupy but not annex it.
So, as I understand it, American Samoa for example, is not annexed by the U.S.; it is just an occupied territory without full representation and voting rights in the U.S. Congress.
Clever if it works. Now what leads you to believe that policy is working? Personally, I see no such evidence - only an increasing number of people who wish to dedicate themselves to Israel's destruction, and of course the Israeli citizens who are out in the street protesting the policy generally, and the war in particular, and who know that what I see is true enough.
DZK, - Well, the occupation of the West Bank by Israel is in the process of working - for Israel. And it has worked well for the U.S. in the Pacific; the U.S. now has a number of forward observation posts and potential military bases to serve the U.S. logistics if they should choose to go to war with China.
Israel's government doesn't care about pro-Palestinian protests, either on the streets or the votes against it in the U.N. General Assembly - as long as they control the military situation - which they do, despite the brief Hamas incursion on 7 October 2023.
DZK--I see your point. In war you have to analyze every and all aspects of your opponent's movements in an attempt to understand his thinking and stay one step of him. Netanyahu might have viewed the possible deaths in the attack as causalities of war and accepted that mind set. Its just a thought that has enough possibility that it should be considered.
As I said, I'll not argue to the contrary. He could be such a moron that he decided to allow such a thing to happen. But that kind of thinking would be more in line with the kind of thinking you'd find in Tehran, for whom the "collateral" casualties would be holy martyrs who go directly to some fever-dream paradise - particularly if it's not >their< citizenry becoming the collateral casualties. Last I heard, that's not something Judaism generally embraces - if we go the religious belief route.
They don't give a s**t about Palestinian casuallties,deaths destruction. Judaism is about survival and then you can rationalize from there.. an eye for an eye morphed into disproportionate response which is a crime against humanity.. but Israel, with our help and approval is exceptional. That is why maybe we at least are beginning to understand blowback, if Israelis do not. This may cost Biden and the country.
DZK, - [your pseudonym reminds me of the DMZ between the two Vietnams, by the way!]
- Anyway, it seems to me that the war in Ukraine is going nowhere; it's at a stand-still. Both sides are wasting money and lives. The only people making money is the military-industral complex.
So what is the conflict really about? It is about Russia's strategic security concerns. During the Boris Yeltsin era NATO decided to break their promise to Gorbachev and expand NATO by including the previous Warsaw Pact countries. This move - during the 1990s - brought NATO right up to Russia's porch (as Putin put it in one of his speeches). Now, this would concern any Russian leader, not just 'wicked Vlad Putin'. Kennedy was concerned when Russia placed intermediate range missiles in Cuba in 1962, and we all went through the Cuban missile crisis. The problem back then (for the U.S. - not just Kennedy) and the problem now (for Russia) is the insufficient warning time provided to activate the anti-missile system to protect cities like Moscow and Petersburg and strategic targets elsewhere in European Russia.
Putin has pointed this out to NATO time and time again, but NATO has refused to engage. OK, so there are no nuclear NATO missiles on Russia's doorstep at the moment, but the Russians obviously have to look ahead into an unknown strategic future. To understand this, we have to (1) think like global strategists, and (2) have the ability to put ourselves in Russia's shoes - empathise with them - which we can, because the U.S. was here once, in 1962, and Kennedy's 'quarantine' brought us to the brink of nuclear war; that's how serious it was (I was 20 back then).
The war in Ukraine was triggered by NATO's talk of eventually making Ukraine a NATO member. Right on Russia's southern borders. Putin appealed to NATO for strategic talks - for a negotiated agreement. His pleas fell on deaf ears; NATO wasn't interested. So, that's when the 'special military operation' started. NATO is part-responsible. It's substantive negotiations or war, isn't it, when we are talking about two superpowers?
If the stalemate continues, negotiations will be the only solution - the only way to peace for the Ukrainians and peace of mind for the rest of us. And a deal about Ukraine must, in Russia's situation, also include a deal about the asymmetrical and unsustainable strategic situation on Russia's European borders. So, Ukraine is only a part of a strategic dilemma for Russia, that NATO has will need to help solve. In a conventional war, Russia has one clear advantage: relatively short supply lines; the U.S. have long supply lines, and the U.S. is the main weapons systems supplier, by far. And by destroying the Baltic Sea pipelines to Germany, the U.S. long-term standing in Europe is questionable: Biden's decision was an example of very poor judgement. Europe will not forget U.S.'s industrial and trade sabotage in 2023, ever.
So yes, negotiations will happen eventually, and it won't be about Ukraine only - and the occupied lands there. I predict that Putin will eventually propose that he will relinquish all occupied land (except Crimea) if NATO agrees to demilitarise its Eastern European member states and put Swedish membership on permanent hold. Putin may even agree to hand Crimea back to Ukraine; its Black Sea fleet is not safe from enemy missiles, so what's the point of a naval base so close to NATO territory?
Addendum:
Putin Was Never So Upset: USA Parking Missiles At Our Doorstep! Beware Of The Anger Of Patient Man! - YouTube – 13 Feb 2022 –
Russia Insight - Russian President Vladimir Putin: USA is standing with missiles on our doorstep. How would the Americans react if missiles were placed at the border with Canada or Mexico?
100 Seconds to Midnight on the Doomsday Clock: We Need a New Security Architecture! - YouTube – 19 Feb 2022 –
Schiller Institute - Sign up with the Schiller Institute https://bit.ly/join-si - The Schiller Institute will hold an international online conference on Saturday, February 19 to reassert the very sane declaration, “A nuclear war cannot be won and must never be fought," by the five nuclear powers and permanent members of the UN Security Council, which they affirmed in a joint statement on Jan. 3 of this year. The conference will also present a {solution} to the current crisis: the establishment of a new security architecture that guarantees all nations the right to security, and to economic and cultural development. To do that, a dialogue about the causes and the cures of the current crisis is urgent.
Let me begin by stating I've >known< ever since, that the US sacrificed forever any diplomatic moral high-ground position it could ever possibly take, on any unwarrented invasion, by any country in the world, of another country the day GWB hustled the US into invading Iraq with his transparently false assertion of WMD's, that he claimed Saddam would supply to terrorists - who, by the way, >actively< fought campaigns against for his own political reasons - that he delivered in public statements in the way he might tell children a ghost story, complete with the "woo woo" facial gestures involved with telling children a ghost story. Go back and look at a video of one of GWB's speeches about Iraq and WMDs and see for yourself. To me, it was >immediately< obvious he was lying when I saw him deliver those speeches >at that time.< I called him a liar then, and history is calling him a liar now.
I'll simply provide the link rather than take up space regurgitating it.
I've recently come across a report that the CIA is now claiming to have had a hand in those festivities in the "undemocratic overthrow" of Yanukovich. Perhaps. For me, the part about "a return to the 2004 Constitution of Ukraine" raises more questions than answers about how "undemocratic" the overthrow really was. Yanukovich was clearly Moscow aligned, while enough of the country to mount said overthrow feared Russia and was EU aligned. There's the rub I'll get to in a moment.
For me, Iran's animus is understandable. It's one of those "miscalculations" I fear and warn of in other discussions - a US miscalculation. That's why I have no doubt the CIA was in some way involved with the Yanukovich ouster. But keep in mind, the CIA typically recruits agents from the population in which they operate, rather than perpetrate anything themselves. Active involvement is a drop-dead final option for them.
You seem to have laid out the perspective of Russia as it faces the US quite well. What if that's not altogether true. NATO consists mostly of EU states fronting on the Russian frontier, because to the EU, Russian nukes on their borders are even scarier to them than Soviet nukes in the Carribean were to the US. It's the EU that has a far greater security concern, with respect to Moscow, than does the US, and the US is an EU ally and member of NATO. So before you assert that the Ukraine conflict is all on US bloody hands, consider that the EU is far more vulnerable to the kind of aggression Moscow has displayed in several other theaters since the fall of the Berlin wall. Notice, there was no US or NATO response to those conflicts, other than - perhaps - to say to Moscow: "you hadn't ought ta'do that."
DZK, - Thank you for your considered reply. First, about Yanukovich. At first, he seemed to be in favour of Ukraine applying for EU membership. He then reneged - maybe persuaded? - to keep the close ties with Moscow; and this change of mind brought the Colour Revolution onto the streets in late 2013 and very early 2014. So, I'm not sure that it's accurate to say that Yanukovich was "Moscow aligned". But since about 2008, Ukraine had become sharply divided between pro-Moscow and pro-Washington voters and politicians. It had to do with ethnic origins, but it also had to do with western Ukraine having most of the heavy industry and traditionally supplying the Soviet Union/Russia with iron and steel, and this formed an important part of Ukraine's national income. Yanukovich, as I understand it, wanted his cake and eat it, too. He he wanted EU membership but also keep Russia as an important trade partner. For some reason, it didn't work for him, not in 2014.
The other thing is that the Colour Revolution started off as a peaceful set of large and ongoing demonstrations. I think that it was in early February 2014 that masked and hooded men dressed in black took over and turned the thing into a violent confrontation between them and the police. People got killed on both sides. And towards the end of February the 'hoods' staged a coup, and some ultra-nationalists became leaders of a new government in Kiev. They turned out to be anti-Russian. Protests then erupted in the Donbass region, staged by Russian-speaking crowds - mostly pro-Russia and/or dependent for their livelihood on good relations with Russia - and some local government buildings were invaded. The West now call them 'the rebels', but they were Ukrainian (or dual) citizens and saw themselves as Ukrainians.
The new Kiev government then sent - not negotiators - but the Army to 'crush' the 'rebels'. That was in early March. The 'rebels' quickly raised a ragtag army of their own, and the civil war started. Putin's first move was to annex Crimea; later, he sent his 'green men' into the Donbass to reorganise and support the armed resistance to the Ukrainian Army. NATO now say that the armed resistance was Moscow-directed; I agree that it certainly became so (with a Russian commander leading them), but I don't think it was so to start with.
I agree that the EU could be seen as more vulnerable to Russian aggression than does the U.S. However, the anti-Russian sentiment is more strongly felt in the former Warsaw Pact countries. Germany under Merkel was keen to forge trade ties with Russia, as evidenced by the building of the underwater pipelines from Russia to Germany - the ones that the U.S. sabotaged earlier this year, allegedly with the help of Norwegian divers. So, all I will say is that Europe was divided about their stance towards Russia - until Putin's 'special military operations' against Ukraine began.
On the whole, I support the idea of buffer states that are recognised by both sides as non-aligned. It makes for strategic stability. I don't hold any strong animus against NATO; I simply think that recruiting members so close to the Russian borders made the strategic situation in Europe unstable. That's my concern.
Yet, the Яepuблиkan$ and religious fundamentalist nut-jobs are committed to unconditionally supporting Israel and bugger the cost. It's much like their unconditional support for ol' P01135809 - apparently their "messiah." The Israeli should understand that the US religious fundamentalist nut-jobs are >not< - in fact - their allies. In that twisted fundamentalist reality, they hunger for apocalyptic biblical prophecy coming to pass, which involves the final destruction of Israel and the return of their savior - and they'll do anything and support anybody likely to help that vision come to pass. And remember, those nut-jobs don't believe in separation of church and state.
For my part, although I've been mighty impatient with Israel for a long, long time - although I could say that in equal measure about the US, as well - but the only thing I can say for sure is that I'm against Hamas. I wish Israel the best of luck ferreting out the Hamas cells, but they should keep a close eye on their alleged friends, who - by my last reckoning - seem to welcome those committed to their destruction - i.e. KKK & Nazis - into their community. Why should I even need to belabor the obvious for them ‽
DZK, let me put your mind at rest. Israel has no illusions about the rethuglican party. They know that the white supremacists and Christian fundamentalists that hold sway over the party would throw Israel under the bus the first chance they got. Thousands of Israelis equal to millions of Americans have been demonstrating in the streets for the past 6 months against Netanyahu's Overhaul of the Judiciary, Israel's constitution and his right wing coalition. In addition, I repeat Netanyahu IMO is on his way out the door. He like Bush-2 were AWOL during the 10/7 attack and 911. Both suffer from hubris. Netanyahu thought Hamas's bark was bigger than its bite. He didn't count on a full scale war, and Bush-2 counted on becoming a war time President listing him in the annals of history along with Washington and Lincoln. Netanyahu needed a get out of jail free card for his past corruption. Where I'd like to push back on some of your comments are these. "Israel has been living on occupied land and went too far." That I believe is not accurate. What do you think would happen to the American Indian if they reneged on the so called reservation agreements they were forced to sign? Israel has no trust in the agreements past and present that all of the allied powers have signed. They have reneged on all of them. Wars fought and won by Israel are thrown into the dustbin of history. Just because the UN, that has a majority of countries that are Islamic says it's occupied doesn't mean that it's so. Legally, Israel has every right to occupy the land it is presently on. If the US can't count on any agreements they enter nationally or internationally, democracy goes out the window and yet many rail against Kevin McCarthy on this thread for reneging on his agreement with Biden, but they apply a different standard when it comes to Israel. Then suddenly, "but the poor Palestinians" who rejected every compromise for a two state solution that was proposed to them by four American Presidents. Iran does not want Israel as its neighbor and the Palestinians, the bleeding hearts profess to care about, are considered casualties of war to be sacrificed. In Iran's misbegotten belief, they would be better off if they could just eliminate Israel who festers as a thorn in their side. Israel isn't willing to be sacrificed on Iran's wet dream.
My bad about the settlers. I wasn't denying Israel's right to settle that area. I was just thinking of it as a strategic matter, considering having folks live on that frontier >extremely< risky. Recall, I mention having defensive emplacements there, instead. Sorry if I gave a wrong impression of what I meant.
Jan, every Israeli gov't? You mean the ones that allowed Arabs to make up 20% of its population or do you mean the ones that allowed the Raam party led by Monsour Abbas , member of the brotherhood to be represented in the Knesset? Perhaps, you mean the thousands of Arab Israelis that graduated from Hebrew University like Monsour Abbas and became doctors, lawyers, educators, and scientists?
I can't get to my original comment but I did wonder about the 20% Arab being allowed in Israel. You do realize the land Israel is on was already populated by Arabs before anyone else got there.
Why does the USA have money for violence and wars but never for free college and universal health care and to solve the homelessness in the USA- the USA’s annual installment of $3billion to Israel with our tax payer money could have solve a lot of our problems here instead of aiding a genocide
Perfect comparison with the Shooting pool shot with an indirect Tehran effect . Yes by backing off Israel would ultimately support Moscow . Finding a way to push forward with sending Aid...send Moscow a message that Democracy must win!!
Please, please be more specific. How is it failing, Laurie? Many, many reporters are being killed in Gaza reporting the events; or prevented from getting inside Gaza to verify the true events. Everything from official spokesmen appear to reflect their own interest and or is 'hearsay'. eg. "We can't be accurate on the number of children killed by bombing". Reporters themselves are NOT failing.
I think Ms. Blair may mean the reporting on the domestic front--the wholly inadequate representations of Biden's impressive accomplishments and the unwarranted focus on Biden's age but not on Trump's where there is only three years difference...and other 'small' matters.
Tim, Neutral? The UN is made up of 195 countries. Fifty-six of them have an Islamic majority. Do you really believe the UN has been neutral in their assessment of Israel?
Because they don't know the difference between being represented rather than ruled. When the rules and laws don't reflect the opinions of the people, they are being ruled by a politician or politicians who exercised their right to lie when they campaigned for office. Or the electorate is on autopilot and is allowing unknown groups to determine who makes the rules and laws we must live by. A small number of very loud people can take charge and get what they want. The only way to answer the noise is to make some of you own. But that means you can't hide behind distractions that occupy time but do little to improve your life. A democracy requires the entire electorate to have agency and to be thoughtful.
As a woman, I have been thinking about who exerts the power in our childhood and how we respond to that power. I can't speak for all women, only for myself, and I have no idea how men experience power in their childhoods. My parents dealt with me as a strange creature in their midsts and there was little attempt to alter my behavior or beliefs by family. So, what I am about to say is more observation than experience.
Many women choose to accept the direction that the men in their lives give. The image of a strong woman is often projected against the backdrop of a disfunctional male, whether father or husband. The drunk. The absent. The lazy. The violent. Rarely against a backdrop of a successful fairytale marriage like the one recently portrayed by the Romney's.
Eleanor Roosevelt is not seen as the focus of FDR's private male desire despite the many children she bore. She is seen as a political partner who offers candid advice. Hillary Clinton, who famously intimated she wasn't a Tammy Wynette caricature, actually did stand by her man until he publicly told the truth. But that break was not permanent.Their relationship is as complex as the Roosevelt's. Neither of these men are considered historically as disfunctional but their relationship to women is. The women in their lives are more or less mute on their relationship to their husbands. You almost want to hear one of them say, "Sometimes they make me so mad, I could just scream and at other times they speak so deeply to my heart I can't catch my breath."
Donald Trump is definitely disfunctional with respect to women. Yet, his disfunction and disrespect towards women are accepted by men as normal and expected and he's revered by some women. The patterns of the behavior of these women are to align themselves with strong men and to never publicly question them. They know where their bread is buttered. All failures are forgiven even unto physical, sexual, or mental violence towards themselves and their children. If course, not all women in these types of relationships willingly remain. But women must address this issue in how we raise our children and the qualities we accept in our partners. Men must also accept their responsibility in the way our children are raised.
Part of the problem is religious doctrine that places women in a subordinate role to men. Part of the problem has been the use of our children to solidify power alliances. Is marriage about power? If power is equally shared, then both partners must give way at different times in a two vote system. Is the relationship between men, women, and power the source of our division?
I'd like to hear what you all think, both men and women. Do you stand together as equals or is there a subordinate relationship that always must yield?
Much depends Paula on the generation you're referring to. For thousands of years, we thought we were living under a male dominated society. Might made right. In Greek mythology we learned during the 5th Century BC, Zeus ruled the universe. His wife Hera took 2nd place in the relationship. His male children ruled their sphere of influence. Athens kings were all men in Greek Mythology. Agamemnon ruled Athens. Priam was king of Troy. Hector, son of Priam ruled Sparta. Women were admired for their beauty like Helen of Troy. During the Minoan civilization, Robert Graves said the world was ruled by a matriarchal system. Today's anthropologists believe that matriarchal societies existed in certain areas of the world alongside patriarchal societies in other parts of the world.
"For example, there were four major matriarchal societies that existed in the African nation of Kush, the Sitones, a 1st C Germanic tribe, the Mosuo, a small Chinese tribe, and the Hopi, a native American tribe. " Elizabeth London-American History
"Today, the women's movement has attached itself to the goddess movement, claiming women's autonomy over their bodies. For example, they claim women's bodies have been oppressed and fetishized by religious groups, which has played a role in violence against women." Wikipedia
I am a daughter of Eve. However, I will not be held responsible for her choices. Submission to the male as default is no longer acceptable. The fact that Justice Barrett brought up in the recent Supreme Court case considering removing access to guns from offenders of domestic violence, based on the previous NY case that changed the tests for constitutionality would fail because of the lack of a long history points out that even in the 1960s beating your wife was considered acceptable. This is the boldest statement of what is wrong with the Roberts Court.
There is a common thread running through the world today and that is the resurgence of the threat of fascism. We see a rise of the hard right in Europe in response to the continuing migrant crisis and Putin's invasion of Ukraine signals the rise of a new brand of Slavic fascism where the Russians "purify" eastern Europe from the immoral contagion of liberal European ideas.
Islamic fascism spread from Egypt morphing into ISIS, Al Qaeda, Hezbollah, Hamas, and others. Hamas wants a "final solution" in Israel and is willing to martyr themselves in a baptism of blood preferring to die rather than to live peaceably with infidel Jews. Their sacrifice will be an example to faltering Muslims considering impure relations with Israel and the West in general.
Fascism comes in a variety of flavors and Islamofacism is at the top of the news cycle today. But, it is important that this fascist contagion is wide spread and feeding on the chaos of each other's actions.
A more pessimistic take: many see it and it's what they want. They won't say that and probably many don't conceptualize how their support is tantamount to support of authoritarianism. They are just supporting from their gut. Or their pocketbook as they see it. But you're right. Big corporate donors just have a failure of imagination where short term profits are concerned. "It can't happen here" mentality.
We here in the U.S. feel safe; we don't seem to recognize real danger even when it surfaces. Violence is mixed up with the fiction that has prevailed: in movies, videos, TV programs, computer games and (real) killings reported routinely "somewhere else"; blatant dishonesty in our governments both local, state and federal. Wars are happening in other places but not here. ?? With this constant and not so subtle erosion, how safe will we be?
Malcolm Nance always hits the nail on the head. I have another question to all who condemn Hamas, but are Jonny on the spot to condemn Israel's response. What would America do if 50,000 of her brothers, sisters, neighbors were murdered in cold blood by a terrorist org. , funded by Iran?
When I saw that MAGAt Mike Johnson was elected Speaker of the House, I saw the hand of tRUMP reaching over his shoulder, pounding the gavel, ruling as to whether an issue or bill would be brought forth for discussion; be it the budget or allowing the government to default & shut down in 3 weeks, or debate gun control, abortion rights, immigration
Susan: tfg's hand has been running the former republican party from the back seat for awhile.. Sadly, he had had help from Russians ,too.. Death threats to anyone opposing him. And even election workers! We need justice! Let's see what the challenge of tfg's legitimacy does in Colorado today! He is disqualified for office. Let's see if our justice system works 💪 Update! ; on Joy Reid tonight she covered the Colorado court challenge of keeping tfg off the ballot. She had Jamie Raskin and Professor Lawrence Tribe on and they nailed it! this is Tuesday, 10/31. Worth watching!
When asked about his worldview, Mike Johnson referenced the Bible. As we all know the Bible is a mish-mash of ideas, poetry, history, and fantastical predictions about the future (Book of Revelations). In other words, it’s a grab-bag onto which anyone can cast their own interpretation. Those predisposed to ideology and the destruction which that always entails (“the 2020 election was stolen”) now rule the US House of Representatives. Seems to me that Jesus really isn’t in charge of history.
Keith, excellent summary of what is going on now with the Republican Party. I am guessing courage is not lurking in the Republican caucuses anywhere in the country. I see it as treason that a candidate like Johnson takes money from a foreign government, particularly one that regularly interferes in our elections. Russia has bought Trump which is not hard since he no longer can distinguish between what is right and wrong, if he ever could, and just wants money and power. His followers are OK with that because if they just do whatever they imagine he says, they don't have to think. I heard a guy commenting on NPR this morning who just loves Trump and said he would write in Trump's name even if he were refused the right to be on the ballot. Yep, he would vote for a criminal who can no longer think clearly because he is just so enamored with Trump, a toddler who has nothing positive to offer anyone. Trump has a lot of negatives from his memory banks, but he needs his "team" to feed him any new lines because he just can't remember what to say. Then there's Johnson, a racist, misogynist, homo/transphobe, xenophobe, Christian nationalist who does his little acting routine of "Southern gentleman" which lets him get away with a lot, even possible treason accepting money from a foreign government. How is it every single House Republican voted for such a despicable person? Maybe they were frustrated, and accepted whoever was shoved in their faces, most didn't even know who he was, but they voted for him anyway. Disgusting!
You asked, “What changed?” When Ronald Reagan said, “The government IS the problem.” Republicans and half the American people bought it, and the “right” have been wrong ever since, slowly decaying the political system.
We can't risk or afford the frightening consequences of another Trump presidency. When it was announced that he won the election in 2016, there was a big reason why the Kremlin cheered. They got their treasonous, highly manipulative puppet that they have always wanted. The only reason felonious Trump wants back into to the Oval Office is to attempt to stay out of prison and get revenge on those who went after him. Four more years of his autocratic insanity would severely weaken NATO, Ukraine, Israel and create more problems throughout the free world.
Now that I've got info on the Hamas defense strategy, I have a better idea of what Israel must deal with. >Disregard everything< I previously said about mounting a massive strike on Tehran. A strike on Tehran would serve no useful purpose because Israel is pinned. I'm now persuaded that Israel has no choice but to invade. Hamas seems to have learned an important lesson from Vietnam - that was a bugger-all for the US forces.
It seems that Hamas has been busy building an extensive spider web network of multi-level tunnels, where critical operations, like HQ, ammo dumps, command posts, barracks, etc. are all built >under< facilities like hospitals, schools, etc. They also tap into the utilities of the facilities they're built under to divert power, water, and anything else they need to operate. This goes far beyond simply holding naked civilians captive as human shields. Even if Israel bombs the facilities, it will have little impact on the fortifications built beneath them. In fact, the facilities above them act as further physical fortification for what lies below, even if blown to rubble. The rubble will perhaps serve even better as fortification from bomb & missile attacks, because rubble will disperse the strength of an explosion even better.
That means the invasion force must locate and crack the underground facilities. At that, the facilities are apparently just wide enough for single-file passage. That's a lesson from Thermopylae, where 300 Greeks stood off against thousands of Persians. Further, they have to be on the lookout for "hidey holes" or "kill chambers" from which they can be ambushed. Add to that, they'll have to find access to and repeat the same operation on multiple levels. I'll wager they'll be forced to do all that using night-vision headgear, as well - just to make it even more difficult.
I doubt any of that will be accomplished very soon. Even if Israel were to court the notion of a Tehran strike, they'll have to ferret out the Hamas defenses prior to such a campaign, in order to secure their rear. Israel will get full US support, while the EU better consider upping their game with Ukraine for the sake of EU security. I'm in no way sanguine about US support for Ukraine. Worse, it appears Turkey is making noise about getting into the Gaza conflict. If they do, they may well be sacrificing accession into the EU - just when it seemed the issue of Kurds in - was it - Sweden seemed to be ironed out. In my view, the state of foreign diplomacy has officially become a friggin' mess! The attack on Israel truly served both Moscow and Tehran, and no, I don't think Putin had any more hand in it than asking help from his ally, Tehran. Israel must >completely< destroy an extensive, multi-level underground fortification. They'll >always< be vulnerable to such strikes if they don't.
To say this is the result of a massive intelligence failure doesn't even begin to describe what has come to pass in Israel.
Hamas has been planning this attack for decades. Their tunnel system alone! There are many news drops that Bibi new it up to 10 days before. What do you think?
I have no doubt about anything on that score, except to say I haven't seen any documented evidence on it. From my perspective, it's hearsay, although what isn't hearsay is that Netanyahu is a convict, and it astonishes me that he wins elections regardless - not unlike, but far more effective than his spiritual disciple, ol' P01135809. I'm inclined to believe it was a bit like the attack on Pearl Harbor back in the '40s. Fleet HQ had reports of an approaching arial formation from its radar outposts sufficiently early to prepare for an attack but blew it off as a probable false alarm - a flock of birds, I believe - and continued on with their Sunday morning routines. The rest is history.
Ironic as far as it goes. The distinction is deadly serious. In Warsaw, the tunnels were used as a primarily defensive measure, to hide a mostly unarmed civilian population. Gaza flips that on it's head, using tunnels as a primary assault weapon/fortification, while the mostly unarmed civilians - protected in Warsaw - get to bleed all over them instead.
Don't get me started! The big difference is that Viet Minh/Viet Kong tunnels were mostly under barely inhabitable jungles - which was most of the country. That's why all the Agent Orange and Napalm. Historically, using those tactics they even managed to throw the Chinese out, although they were uneasy allies against the US. Gaza is mostly a short, narrow, densely populated piece of real-estate. I'm thinkin' the Kong tunnels might have been more effective, relying heavily on natural cover. They were also more ad-hoc. On the other hand, the Hamas tunnels seem to have been heavily engineered. Their main weakness seems to be that you can probably bet some critical target lies beneath some critical civilian architecture. That's where the Kong tunnels would've been more effective. Critical outposts could be anywhere in the jungle. But what do I know? I'm just speculating. I'm just some guy with a notion here. However, I'll just bet that if I'm wrong, I'm not too far wrong.
DZK, I’ve been wondering how all those so called missiles from Iran were sneaked into Hamas territory without anybody, US INCLUDED, Intelligence folks not seeing it happen? Tunnel rats have aggravated every major war/conflict but they could level most all of It with Bunker Buster bombs like was used in Afghanistan. The problem is all those hospitals, doctors, staff & refugees who will not leave the area of North Gaza! They say Hamas is keeping them there as human shields! I believe all the Palestinians & HAMAS think they have checkmated Israel & that they will back down. I would not bet on that if I were them! Israel seems determined to rout the terrorists from the country Whatever the cost! But the US, Europe & the Arab countries keep pushing restraint on them & to minimize collateral damage! Does any other country @ war even give that a passing thought?? Don’t believe so, so why should Israel? Hubby & I r behind Israel & their challenge to kill all the Hamas terrorists! And then go after Hezbollah. How they will get to the Leaders hiding out in Quatar is anybody’s guess but seems like it would have to be some covert operation with Massad & their form of seals or rangers! U know they must have protection & security provided by the Qua tares so it wouldn’t be easy. I do hope they will be able to get rid of Netanyahu bec he’s too much like the tRumpster! They voted the corrupt bastard out of office but he just pushed his way back in saying they had some kind of agreement to work together! He must have more experience fighting the terrorists.
It’s such a mess like most wars are but I hope Israel gets the job done & rids the Middle East of more terrorists. That’s one mean group that can radicalize & recruit more terrorists without much effort so I don’t believe the World will ever be completing rid of them! Terrorists or fascists means the generals will never be without somebody to make war games over.
What people must keep remembering is that the GOP is a fascist, authoritarian party fashioned on Russia. We don't have 2 democratic political parties. They must be voted out, all of them!
...the GOP is a lying, cheating, traitorous herd of sheep .
Given that they invited the corrupt Kremlin friendly, autocrat, Viktor Orban, to speak at their CPAC conference in Dallas last year pretty much says it all.
As to the value of one's vote, in a number of states such as North Carolina, Wisconsin, Texas and others, it already means nothing with regards to Congressional and state legislative elections.
Well surmised, but I don't think war and killing will solve anything except lead the world closer to nuclear annihilation. I would rather see the billions of dollars not wasted wasting lives, towns, infrastructure etc. The unchecked Capitalist system is eating its own citizens' tails. All the dictators (Putin, Trump, Jinping, Khamenei/Rashid, Fattah al-Sisi, John Un, to name a few) have one great fear and that is an educated democratic society. The military solution is being used whenever possible so that the very few (top 5%) will prosper economically. With war, there never is an easy solution to stop it, it's hard to put a flower down the barrel of a Merkava 4 tank or take a Dumb Bomb out of the sky with a rock. Fortunately or unfortunately, there won't be much of an uprising against the military industrial (money) machine unless the US starts the draft up again. But the military has been largely privatized and incentivized to those who often don't have another choice. In the meantime, we should use the greatest motivator of all free societies, a realistic path that empowers members society to work hard to have the opportunity to support themselves and their family without having to kill someone else or another person's family member to achieve that. There has to be the opportunity which is missing in most societies, certainly for the lower socioeconomic classes around the globe. There shouldn't be a scarcity of educating people, but that is how revolution gets suppressed, at least until the suppressed can't take it any longer.
Mr. Reich’s analysis and this reply are right on! Thank you both for articulating. If only we could get this through the heads (and hearts) of the GOP and their supporters. I for one will be sharing this with people I know who are in that group.
I agree with you Liz, “There has been a dearth of clear thinking.” As with so many of the challenges facing us in the United States and challenges we see around the planet many of the most important decisions are based on emotions and narrow minded sentiments. I am among one of the hundreds of thousands influenced by clear thinkers and logic of those clear thinkers such as Heather Cox Richardson and Robert Reich. Our task (I am referring to readers and those influenced by such clear thinking devoid of negative sentiments) is to amplify and spread the clarity we are are privileged to receive from great humanitarian and compassionate thinkers.
Each of us have the capacity to become influencers and activists in our own lives and in our own circles. Many of us who participate in these blogs are of an older generation. that does not mean we cannot also be activists in our own unique manner. Although not always outwardly respected in a “youth minded” culture, we have 60, 70 and 80 years of accumulated experience and sharp minds. We have perspective and we have greater capacity to influence others than we give ourselves credit for. We can organize “Coffee Klatches” and gatherings among our own constituencies in our own communities.
Many of the readers and participants in this forum, started their activism in the anti-war days of the 1960s and early 1970s which morphed into the “Ecology Movement.” Many of us still hold those same youthful ideals 50 years later. Technologically the world has changed but many of the issues have not and the struggle between emotionality (sentiment) and rationality is still the continuing challenge. In this country the struggle between those who believe that the purpose of government is to serve the wealthy and those who believe that government is to serve all the governed has been a part of the national debate from the very framing of the Constitution and has reemerged still very much in the forefront.
It is the ancient Greeks who created the word “apocalypse.” The Greek definition is “To uncover that which was previously hidden and would not be uncovered if not for an apocalypse generally leading to a revelation.”
If you discover that a physical cancer has emerged in your own body, the wise approach is to find all the places where it may be uncovered so the proper treatment can be given for a complete cure. Many cancers on our planetary society are being uncovered at once, so the challenges facing humanity can be properly treated by in a wholistic manner. The hidden disease is now emerging giving us the possibility to apply a lasting “cure.” Part of that cure is not just to read of the inspiring activism of others but to apply it in our own communities whether local or global. “Do all the good you can, by all the means you can, in all the ways you can, in all the places you can, to all the people you can, as long as ever you can,” attributed to John Wesley 1703-1791, is still valid over 200 years later.
Marc Nevas, your concluding quote is wonderful. It says to me love and compassion for yourself and others is your purpose on earth. Everyone in this sense can be a prophet, a sage, a wise elder. I agree with you. We hold more power and influence for good than we realize. It spreads out like a ripple on a pond.
See what they do -- not listen to what they say. During the civil war, the Methodist, i.e. Wesley, church was at war with itself. What it needs is an epiphany and a return of the social gospel.
Daniel Soloman, thanks your history lesson re Wesley. I agree and hope for a widening embrace of the social gospel. That has been the true fight throughout human history, within us and among us. The ego or the truth of our sacred human value being equal to others?
While I applaud her ability to influence young voters, there is no need to “channel Taylor Swift”. Those of us who want a world where all people live together in peace and well-being need only listen respectfully and support our allies in unifying humanity with kindness.
From a marketing aspect...I'm 79 never even heard her music. She registers Democrats better than anybody and that includes Biden, Obama or anyone else.
The music of Taylor Swift sounds exactly like the music of Alanis Morrissette from the 1990s. I’m glad that she’s progressive and influences people in the right way. But musically, there’s nothing new here.
Thanks for clarifying that..fingers crossed Swift will make a positive Biden support when the time is right. Good to see her with friends and Kelce's mom at KC Chiefs games..showing once again that she's someone regular people can identify with. IMHO
I could not agree more. If you engage with them, you feed them and give them exactly what they want. These are either hired trolls or lonely people desperate for attention.
This morning’s troll has been deleted so I deleted my post that contain some of his abusive language. However, when another troll shows up, or the same one under a different name, be sure not to feed the troll, and they will go away.
What is clear to me, and has been clear since 1967, is that the other Arab countries, all formerly at perpetual war with Israel, could end this in a minute.
I don't think this has anything to do with religion, or that religion should have anything to do with it; this is political and always has been. Political problems call for political solutions, and I believe that's what the Rabin-Arafat talks would have done.
Which is why Egypt is refusing entry to its country of those on the Southern border of Gaza as the last thing they want is Hamas militants, who infiltrate the civilian population.
The last thing they want is much of the Gazan population in the Sinai Desert, facilitating and Israeli takeover of the Gaza strip, a second major Nakba.
NO!! Why should other countries be morally obligated to accept Palestinian refugees once again being evicted from their own land by Zionists? Is that even logical? Put the blame where it belongs, not on Arabs.
Agree with all of your comments. But if Israel is such a wealthy success, why do they need our aid. Why are they the #1 recipient of our foreign aid? It seems wrong when so many around the globe are literally starving to death. And is Israel critical to the US politically or is it our greatest liability?
I just read that Israeli soldiers are asking for donations. They claim they don't even have underwear. Must be a scam or a plea for sympathy. I also read that Harlan Crow has donated to Dean Phillips, Dem nominee for Pres in 2024. Robert Reich is right on the button. Clarity is hard to come by with so much noise in the background. But slaughtering innocents is always wrong. That should be clear.
Mr Phillips looks like he out for himself. Just his body language. He does not IMO have positive intentions in mind. Nor does have any experience or understanding of just what it would take to be president at this time. Like giving your 10 yr old the keys to your new car.
Michael, you are right about the inexperience and the lack of anything important to offer anyone by so many in office or running for office. It seems now, and probably for the past few decades, there is a move to put people up for the presidency, Congress, and state legislatures who have no experience, no good ideas, no vision for what could make the world, not just their own lives, better, etc. For example, who could have honestly thought Marjorie Greene has anything to offer anyone. As far as I can tell, she has some rather serious problems with knowing what reality is, yet she was elected twice. That also goes for Boebart, Jordan, Gates, and the crowning fool, Trump. George W. Bush had no clue what it meant to be president either, yet he was reelected or rather actually elected. We are still dealing with the fallout from his insane 8 years in office. RFK, Jr. and this new guy who just announced are proving there are a few Democrats who have lost touch with reality too. While these guys and gals are running despite their serious problems, Joe Biden who actually is making headway with some of the real issues we have to face, is being maligned, ignored by the media, presented as a doddering old fool, etc. Yes indeed, a significant part of this nation is living in the world of unreality and seem to like it that way. That's probably because they have not really suffered the pain that will come when more of the ignorant ones take over and just dismiss our Constitution. It is especially hard when our courts can't/won't even support our Constitution and make things up to support their own personal biases while working to take away people's rights. And those Republican-appointed judges and justices, or a significant number of them are proving every day to be corrupt, unethical, or just plain incompetent. The Federalist Society and Trump worked really hard to undermine our courts and our Constitution. When will We the People stop them? No clue!
It is common knowledge that the "elite" Harvard & ivy schools always had a deep seated bigotry toward ethnic & some religious groups. I think that Netanyahu's policy of Zionist expansion into Palestine territory only gave fuel to this excuse for bigotry. I have supported Israel since its inception, but with the understanding that it was a state for holocost survivors to rebuild their lives, be free to worship in their own religion. I did not expect such intolerance from their Arab neighbors. The USA was the first to recognize Israel as a state, & still supports their alliance. What these elite schools are forgetting is that both Palestine Arabs & Israeli Jews are both "semetic" peoples, & these terrorists groups as Hamas & Hezboola are backed by iran which is Persian, & not Arab.
Robert, how disappointing, calling any human beings "animals" is a way to mark them as beings who can be killed at will the way people kill other animals on this planet. I do not believe, and I have never seen evidence that there is such a thing as "genetic hatred of anything, particularly the "Hebrew language and the speakers thereof." Again that is a way to say one's hatred is from birth rather than generated through social and personal interactions. Alas, Christians were taught to hate Jews because they supposedly killed Jesus, which, of course is not true because it was the Romans according to scripture. It seems leaders all over the world find it expedient to get their underlings to hate whoever the guy in charge wants to do harm to. Over the centuries, for Europeans for the most part, Jews were a convenient target and the leaders large or small could tell the vast illeterate population that the Jews were evil, not really people "animals," who could be used and abused at will. That "hatred" is not genetic in any way, just social and in this case the product of leaders who want power over others. The Harvard students for the most part are not haters of Jewish people, they want the Palestinians to have rights, even their own nation, which is what should have happened from the beginning in 1948. I do not understand your vitriol against the students, maybe it is your own bias against young people who actually care about the condition of the world and want the Palestinians to be valued as people, and who want peace, that is going on in your comment.
Yahoo news had an article this morning that reported Israeli soldiers are asking for donations. I read comments in Joyce Vance's substack that Phillips received a donation from Harlan Crow, so I looked it up. True as reported in the Daily Mail, News Break, The Daily Beast, etc.
We need to distinguish between the IDF (a trained, equipped military force) and conscripts (over 300K ordinary people called into service to fight...leaving work, lives, honeymoons, different countries...to return to fight for Israel).
These conscripts do lack the necessities, as Netanyahu has moved so rapidly into all-out war. A grassroots movement in Israel has scrambled to help the conscripts. They are being asked to fight a well-armed, ruthless enemy with brief training and no supplies.
Netanyahu has shown as little regard for the conscripts as he has for the hostages.
1 out of 5 Israelis live below the poverty line. I contribute to a Christian/Jewish charity and am shocked at how many Israeli Jews (especially elderly) are really struggling just to have enough to eat! Similar situation also exists in Ukraine!
I'm no expert on Israeli social services, but they have a far right government, and such governments are not generally known for their caring social policies.
hw - All Israeli's, male and female, must spend about 2-1/2 years in the army getting fully trained. Conscripts for the invasion of Gaza are well-trained although apparently many are not still in good physical shape and as noted many don't have the weaponry and support they should have for an operation of this size.
I understand, I should have clarified that most of the conscripts have not been recently trained. There's a world of difference between a professional military and conscripts who may have served a decade or more ago.
Who is Dean Phillips? That name hasn't been mentioned in the media as a possible democratic challenger in the upcoming political campaigns. The only one who has been discussed is RFK Jr. Obviously, we must watch whose donors are trying to buy influence
The USA healthcare system is controlled and owned by insurance companies who purchase their reps to make sure that nothing changes. We call it democracy. it's actually an auction.
Because your anointed Squad members failed to force the vote on medicare for all when they had their opportunity (voting for Pelosi's speakership). INSTEAD, they lied to your faces and got in lock step with the rest of the establishment swamp choosing to line their own pockets and fulfill their own political ambitions. And you'll keep voting for them.
AOC is a fierce supporter of Rashida Tlaib and Ilan Omar. She repeats the same false information they do, with a veneer of bipartisanship. I don't trust her as far as I can throw her.
The catastrophe in the Middle East is turning into a hate-filled recruiting tactic put forth by Ham'as. The deaths of all the innocent civilians in Gaza will turn the young minds that have witnessed their family and friends being decimated by Israel's bombing attacks into hate-filled future fighters that will carry on an eternal Jihad against all things coming from Israel. The slaughter carried out by Ham'as on 10/7 has no clear answer for the Israeli military. They are fighting an enemy that will prove almost impossible to find, and in their attempts to do so the lives of thousands of innocents will be lost in the process. The overall ranks of Ham'as will swell as the carnage increases. Israel is dammed if they do and dammed if they don't. As it stands, the Middle East is the steed, the Muslim people represent the saddle and Israel is the eternal bur. The outcome is, the battle of the "Greasy Sand."
Yes, I agree. Creating a country where people were already living and forcing them to give up their land has never been the morally right thing to do anywhere. Modern land ownership isn't tossed aside based on claims of ancient history except through war.
Jews have been living in Israel far longer than the Muslims. At the end of the 19th century there were more Jews than Muslims, because they were fleeing the Russian pogroms and emigrated to the land that is now called Palestine, the biblical home of Jews. Before the 19th century, the land was ruled by the Philistines, the Jews, the Babylonians, the Byzantine Empire, the Romans, the Crusades, the Ottoman Empire, and now the Jews again. Israel won 4 major wars, one that was determinative in 1967, that gave Israel control of the Gaza. Repeating myths that indicate Israel doesn't belong there and forced Palestinians off their land has no basis in fact. The moniker, Palestinian, as it is used today is misleading because Palestine has only existed since 1923 when the land was divided by England, who had a the Palestinian mandate given them by the Allied powers after WWI. Transjordan was created and Israel accepted far less land than originally promised. They were reduced to the size of Connecticut or New Jersey and yet they accepted the deal in the hope for peace. On May 14, Israel was declared a state by all of the world powers. However, their new found home was immediately challenged by the Arabs. They fought and won the 1948 war with a few drawbacks. In May, 1948, the Arab Legion overran East Jerusalem. In 1950, Jordan annexed the areas it had occupied by military force in 1948 which included the West Bank. In 1967, Israel fought one of its major wars again and won. Therefore, the land called the West Bank, the biblical, Samaria and Judea is once again in the hands of Israel. You are forgiven for not having a clear picture of the history. A search of the internet is covered by half truths to blatantly false information on this topic. You have to go to page 10 to get Israel's side of the story.
So much bad history of how Israel Palestine issues started.... I will not reply but point out an article from The Guardian by Michael Segalov, journalist of Jewish faith:
Before I begin addressing the the comments you referenced in the Guardian article, I must IMHO, state the Guardian never misses a chance to promote the view that Israel is responsible for the horrible treatment the Palestinians have and are receiving. IMO, and I can show if you’re willing to accept another worldview that the Arabs that chose to remain in Israel are 100 times better off than their brothers and sisters in Gaza. Arab Israelis represent 20% of the Israeli population of 9.1 million. They are represented by the Raam party in the Knesset. The Raam party is led by a member of the Muslim Brotherhood, Monsour Abbas, no friend of Israel
Now, allow me to take the points the Guardian article references.
POINT 1
“I saw with my own eyes the mistreatment and oppression of its Palestinian population. Walking streets Palestinian residents are forcibly denied access to, I for the first time truly understood its label as an “apartheid state”.”
RESPONSE
It is apparent the Jewish journalist has left out a lot of history. There is no doubt that Palestinians packed into a 25 mile strip of land without the basic freedoms we enjoy are caught up in this conflict. What this reporter witnessed in this conflict happens here in America everyday in states like Mississippi, Arkansas, Tennessee etc. Mike Johnson, the new
speaker of the House represents everything you abhor and I think you would agree.
Point 2
“As we’ve seen in protests across the world these last weeks, an ever-growing portion of the Jewish diaspora feels similarly.”
RESPONSE
This is false. It is what the Squad, J. Street, Elite University professors are trying to project. Ilan Omar has declared a DAY OF RAGE after she heard about the hospital attack. She has been silent, since confirming evidence LAY the blame squarely on Hamsas.
Point 3
“But by 1948, more than 750,000 Palestinians were made refugees,15,000 killed. If the rhetoric of some in Israel today bears out, Gaza may soon see fatalities in these numbers.”
RESPONSE
Michael Segalov comes late to the game if his defense of the Palestinians commences in 1948. He skips over everything that happened between 1890’s - 1948.
The Balfour Declaration was signed in 1914, promising Israel a Jewish homeland by Lord Balfour of England and Lord Rothchild that encompassed biblical Palestine. Why? Because Chaim Weitzman, a renowned scientist and influential in England’s politics convinced them that Israel was being persecuted by mainly Russia, but was also put in Ghettos all over Europe and deserved to live in their biblical homeland. Note that they were persecuted by Christians since they did not accept Jesus Christ as their Savior FOR CENTURIES. In addition, in 1921, Chaim Weitzman invented Acetone, which helped England win WWI. You might believe England had no right to promise anything, but they had a Palestinian Mandate over the land in question and all Allied powers signed an agreement called the League of Nations in 1923, giving Israel a Jewish homeland. However, that was not the end of the story, right before this agreement was signed Churchill needed to get Abdullah’s agreement. Abdullah agreed as long as Transjordan was created. This gave the Arabs 80% of the land and 20% went to Israel.
You won’t read that in the Guardian! Fast forward to 1948 when Israel fought a war for independence and won. England was counting on them losing, since the whole Arab world were their opponents!
point 4
“Those of us not ourselves lost in the fog of war urgently need to understand this more nuanced story. That despite the fact that Britain’s promising of a land to the Jews not theirs to give away stinks of imperialism, early Jewish settlers were far from their imperial soldiers”
RESPONSE
If you believe this statement, then you must also believe that Kevin McCarthy renegging on his agreement with Biden was o.k. Democracy dies that way and we are witnessing this in our country today!
Point 5
“Palestinian people from equal citizenship on the land, their resistance continuing until they’re erased from Israel’s expanded borders, displaced or destroyed entirely. “
RESPONSE
Israel never has expanded its borders. If anything,, Israel’s borders were reduced by 80%. Jordan got what Israel was promised. The West Bank was biblical Samaria and Judea. Jordan won that war and incorporated it into their country in 1950. Israel won it in 1967 war and holds control over it until today.
Fairness is in the eyes of the beholder. The land in question has been held by the Philistines. the Jews, the Babylonians, the Byzantine Empire, the Romans, the Crusades, the Ottoman Empire and now the Jews. Jews are not willing to lay down their arms and allow the world to stomp all over them AGAIN!Blaming the Jews is a trope Hitler used to come to power. Be careful what you ask for!
Thank you, Eadie, for a cogent defense of Israel's existence.
However, you say, "You might believe England had no right to promise anything, but they had a Palestinian Mandate over the land in question and all Allied powers signed an agreement called the League of Nations in 1923, giving Israel a Jewish homeland".
I wouldn't dispute Britain's right to 'lobby' for a Jewish homeland/state in the British Mandate of Palestine. The question was - and still is, to my mind - how big a portion of that land could be given to Jewish settlers, relatively peacefully, considering the existence of Palestians, as well. It was always going to be a difficult balancing act - and I'm sure you agree.
It is in this light - this difficulty - that the assassination, in 1948, of a UN appointed negotiator, namely Count Folke Berndotte, was such an outrage. If you claim to stand for 'law and order', or 'peace and justice', then you don't kill the negotiator.
The people already living there were both Palestinian Arabs and PalestinianJews. King David made Jerusalem the capital of Israel 3,000 years ago.
According to the British Mandate land registries, land ownership was divided roughly in these percentages:
76% was state land, 8% was owned by absentee owners mostly from Egypt or Turkey, 8% was owned by local Arab clans, 8% was owned by Jews and Jewish organizations. So you can't give back what was never owned.
In 1946 over 70% of Palestine was vested in the British Mandatory Power. The greater part of this was the Negev, close to 50% of Mandatory Palestine. This was mostly uninhabited arid or semi-arid territory inherited originally by the Mandatory Government from Turkey. In 1948 it passed to the Government of Israel. These lands had not been owned by Arab farmers, neither under the British Mandate nor under the preceding regime. Arabs chose war against Israel rather than accept the land assigned to them under the the partition.
Also, there are no conflicts over “land ownership” in Israel. The Ottoman Empire’s rule over the Land of Israel ended, and Israel’s independent self-rule began, never changing the status of any private land ownership. Since there is no such nation or state as “Palestine”, there is no conflict or dispute between any sovereign powers over the “land ownership”.
Wendy, I fear we're wasting our breath. Their views are baked in and it appears that facts don't matter. They resort to their own alternative facts that have no basis.
3000 years ago! much have happened over this period. In 1800 BC, (3800 years ago) the Mitannis ruled the whole of Mesopotamia; they intermarried with Egyptians of the 18th Dynasty, and had their princess Nefertiti as the Queen of Egypt. At that time there was no Israel. Later the Mitannis were uprooted by the Assyrians -- they moved to Iran. Should therefore Iran now say that Mesopotamia is theirs!
Please do not use history to justify your rationales.
Many rulers had hegemony over the territory. The Philistines, the Jews, the Babylonians, the Byzantine Empire, the Romans, the crusades, the Ottoman Empire, and now the Jews again. Jockeying for this land has been going on for centuries. It's Israel's turn once again. They won their right to a state as all previous rulers have. As Golda Meir has said, we have no place else to go!
Unfortunately your legalistic definition of land registry records is not how the local people saw it. I don't think Native Americans had land registries, nor the Australian aborogines. Such are the way to justify land grabs.
What is "ownership?" In common law followed in UK and many countries, if you live in a land for 12 years, you own it. And in humanitarian terms, if you live somewhere and your ancestors lived there -- it is your land.
Your legalistic reasoning for justification of the land grab are fine -- but it is not morally correct. Tell this to the native Americans and the aborigines!
Moses entered the land of Canaan with Joshua and they started a war that would never end by slaughtering every living soul they encountered. The inhabitants they killed were all Palestinians. Some people are like Elephants when it comes to forgetting.
EXACTLY! It is the Germans that caused the Holocaust. The guilt complex of the Europeans was assuaged by giving the surviving people of Jewish faith a land already settled for 2000 years by others!
Lisa, as I advised before, you're hanging on to headlines and stereotypes that as for click bait. Try another prospective. If you're just posting these articles to gain sympathy from friends that share your biased viewpoint, past away!
The outcome will be unattended. Even if Israel drives out Hamas terrorists, withdraws from Palestine, who will govern the Gaza strip? It will just become another vulnerable area for a terrorist group to take over the governing of the region, just as Afghanistan did post USSR withdrawal & AlQueda made it home there. The USA invaded, & eliminated AlQueda terrorists, withdrew, & now Taliban sharia repressed the nation, which is ripe for another terrorist group to move in. The Gaza strip youth population only knows the friction & destruction between Arab & Jew, so they will be even more vulnerable to a terrorist group running their government in the future & more fighting against Israel
I'm not sure it's working to our benefit. It didn't stop us from going into Iraq and Afghanistan. It may have led to 9/11 and other acts of terror. And the current one state/one apartheid prison is immoral.
That apartheid isn't working? That the Palestinians are suffering?That supporting Israel has drawn terrorism on the US? Israel needs to promote an equal and contiguous state of Palestine. They need to kill them with kindness. Rebuild the ruined buildings. Flood them with help. But the majority in Israel have chosen Netanyahu and his policy of genocide as a solution.
Daniel, no one on this blog is “our enemy.” We are having a discussion with differing points of view. I might not agree with Liz, but she is not my enemy, she is voicing an opinion different than mine, that is all.
Daniel, I don't think creating Israel was a good idea, but it's too late now. The Palestinians need to have an at least equal contiguous state of their own. Hamas perpetrated horrific evil with their attack, which apparently killed some people most sympathetic to their plight. Israel's predictable reaction of killing so far 8000 Palestinians, 54 UN workers, 29 journalists, also shows a total disregard for human life. Israel has lost a lot of sympathy over the years by its treatment of the Palestinians and the building of settlements on their land. People never like being forced to give up their land, especially without very nice compensation. Forgive me for not elaborating earlier but I fell asleep.
This is a letter sent to Edinburgh University. It should have been sent to American universities and many people on this thread.
The ignorance among students in our prestigious universities is breathtaking!!
please circulate to counter the lies , Ignorance and misinformation .This is an incredible letter written by a non-Jewish Scottish professor to his students who voted to boycott Israel.
It's a response from Dr Denis MacEoin, a non-Jewish professor, to the motion put forward by The Edinburgh Student's Association to boycott all things Israeli, in which they claim Israel is under an apartheid regime. Denis is an expert in Middle Eastern affairs and was a senior editor of the Middle East Quarterly. Here's his letter to the students.
TO: The Committee Edinburgh University Student Association.
May I be permitted to say a few words to members of the EUSA? I am an Edinburgh graduate (MA 1975) who studied Persian, Arabic and Islamic History in Buccleuch Place under William Montgomery Watt and Laurence Elwell Sutton, two of Britain's great Middle East experts in their day. I later went on to do a PhD at Cambridge and to teach Arabic and Islamic Studies at Newcastle University . Naturally, I am the author of several books and hundreds of articles in this field.
I say all that to show that I am well informed in Middle Eastern affairs and that, for that reason, I am shocked and disheartened by the EUSA motion and vote.
I am shocked for a simple reason: there is not and has never been a system of apartheid in Israel .
That is not my opinion, that is fact that can be tested against reality by any Edinburgh student, should he or she choose to visit Israel to see for themselves. Let me spell this out, since I have the impression that those members of EUSA who voted for this motion are absolutely clueless in matters concerning Israel, and that they are, in all likelihood, the victims of extremely biased propaganda coming from the anti-Israel lobby.
Being anti-Israel is not in itself objectionable. But I'm not talking about ordinary criticism of Israel.
I'm speaking of a hatred that permits itself no boundaries in the lies and myths it pours out.
Thus, Israel is repeatedly referred to as a "Nazi" state. In what sense is this true, even as a metaphor?
Where are the Israeli concentration camps?
The einzatsgruppen?
The SS?
The Nuremberg Laws?
The Final Solution?
None of these things nor anything remotely resembling them exists in Israel , precisely because the Jews, more than anyone on earth, understand what Nazism stood for.
It is claimed that there has been an Israeli Holocaust in Gaza (or elsewhere).
Where?
When?
No honest historian would treat that claim with anything but the contempt it deserves.
But calling Jews Nazis and saying they have committed a Holocaust is as basic a way to subvert historical fact as anything I can think of.
Likewise apartheid.
For apartheid to exist, there would have to be a situation that closely resembled how things were in South Africa under the apartheid regime. Unfortunately for those who believe this, a weekend in any part of Israel would be enough to show how ridiculous the claim is.
That a body of university students actually fell for this and voted on it is a sad comment on the state of modern education.
The most obvious focus for apartheid would be the country's 20% Arab population.
Under Israeli law, Arab Israelis have exactly the same rights as Jews or anyone else;
Muslims have the same rights as Jews or Christians;
Bahais, severely persecuted in Iran, flourish in Israel, where they have their world center;
Ahmadi Muslims, severely persecuted in Pakistan and elsewhere, are kept safe by Israel;
the holy places of all religions are protected under a specific Israeli law.
Arabs form 20% of the university population (an exact echo of their percentage in the general population).
In Iran, the Bahai's (the largest religious minority) are forbidden to study in any university or to run their own universities: why aren't your members boycotting Iran?
Arabs in Israel can go anywhere they want, unlike blacks in apartheid South Africa.
They use public transport, they eat in restaurants, they go to swimming pools, they use libraries, they go to cinemas alongside Jews - something no blacks were able to do in South Africa.
Israeli hospitals not only treat Jews and Arabs, they also treat Palestinians from Gaza or the West Bank. On the same wards, in the same operating theatres.
In Israel , women have the same rights as men: there is no gender apartheid.
Gay men and women face no restrictions, and Palestinian gays often escape into Israel, knowing they may be killed at home.
It seems bizarre to me that LGBT groups call for a boycott of Israel and say nothing about countries like Iran , where gay men are hanged or stoned to death. That illustrates a mindset that beggars belief.
Intelligent students thinking it's better to be silent about regimes that kill gay people, but good to condemn the only country in the Middle East that rescues and protects gay people.
Is that supposed to be a sick joke?
University is supposed to be about learning to use your brain, to think rationally, to examine evidence, to reach conclusions based on solid evidence, to compare sources, to weigh up one view against one or more others.
If the best Edinburgh can now produce are students who have no idea how to do any of these things, then the future is bleak.
I do not object to well-documented criticism of Israel.
I do object when supposedly intelligent people single the Jewish state out above states that are horrific in their treatment of their populations.
We are going through the biggest upheaval in the Middle East since the 7th and 8th centuries, and it's clear that Arabs and Iranians are rebelling against terrifying regimes that fight back by killing their own citizens.
Israeli citizens, Jews and Arabs alike, do not rebel (though they are free to protest).
Yet Edinburgh students mount no demonstrations and call for no boycotts against Libya, Bahrain, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, and Iran.
They prefer to make false accusations against one of the world's freest countries, the only country in the Middle East that has taken in Darfur refugees, the only country in the Middle East that gives refuge to gay men and women, the only country in the Middle East that protects the Bahai's... Need I go on?
The imbalance is perceptible, and it sheds no credit on anyone who voted for this boycott.
The slaughter, starvation and lack of clean water in Gaza is a cataclysm of atrocity being perpetrated by Israel and the US on mostly women and children as we speak. Nothing else matters. The orders to evacuate hospitals. It is horrifying and nauseating. 9000 dead, go ahead dispute the numbers, but in the past they have been proven accurate. No excuse for this lack of humanitarian concern for innocent people who are trapped. Telling people to leave by a certain route and bombing them when they do. I am beyond sickened that my taxes are paying for this.
Agreed Daniel, the US always has a motive for it's actions in the world. The US knew what was happening to the Jews during WWII, yet we did little to help the German Jews flee....we even turned away children. I wish we had helped establish Israel for moral purpose...but if we had....it probably wouldn't have been at the expense of the Palestinians.
1948 was a long time ago. All the "Palestinians" had to do was acknowledge the existence of Israel. Most of the understanding on this page is based on myth. No doubt there were some war crimes. I do not defend the Irgun. Hard to defend the Arab Legion. circa 1947-1950. But since 1967 only Jordan and Egypt have faced up to reality. Both have had their own internal problems. We learned nothing from the murder of 241 Marines by Hezbollah. Although we attacked Iraq, Afghanistan, Israel did not participate...they had their own problems.
Our state department was either conned or owned by Saudi oil since the war. The Dulles brothers dominated our policy, and were whores for big sugar in Guatemala and Cuba.
I think that the fact that Hamas's leadership is actually situated in Qatar, may lead to some optimism. We should be putting the screws to them to get them to negotiate. Americans missing Americans trapped in Gaza.
I published a book, Breaking Up with Cuba...could probably write about US foreign policy generally.
Equally you could say that 1933 was a long time ago, and yet 2024 could be a repeat of that if Trump gets in, or anyone like him (and there are quite a few of those sadly). We should never forget history, or the lessons that it teaches us.
As a matter of fact, some Jews perpetually remained, mainly in the cities. By 1948, 150,000 Jews occupied the old city of Jerusalem. The Ottomans controlled the entire region and by 1867 started to sell to outside interests. But for settlements like de Rothschild estate there was little cultivation
What you miss is that just as many Jews were kicked out of Moslem countries as emigrated from Europe. 650,000 sent to Israel by the Arab Legion, who were fighting "total" war, burning the land and killing everyone. Started before 1948.
Daniel, - Yes, the Palestinians, and the Arabs generally, must recognise Israel's right to exist. But Israel must also recognise the State of Palestine and work towards its establishment and recognition. It goes both ways, doesn't it? I don't hear you say that a two-state solution is the way to go. What do you think?
Daniel, - Unfortunately, being a democracy doesn't guarantee good government. The British Empire was ruled by a democracy, but the colonies were dictatorships - or, if you like, 'enlightened desptisms'. Nothing has changed: the U.S. broke the Geneva agreement, signed by France in 1954, and continued France's colonial war in Indochina; this new war became known as the Vietnam War. The U.S. appointed dictators to run South Vietnam. So, again: democracy at home, tyranny abroad.
False analogies. #1 Israel is not a colonial empire. Tried to give Gaza former settlements in 2007 -- rejected by Hamas. Until 1979 Gax=za was a "colony" of Egypt. The West Bank was part of Jordan until Carter/Sadat deal when PLO would not cooperate - but given to the PA.
Just adding to that question as I have it myself. Do they really need our support in this current fight? Or does enlisting our aid commit us to the cause and keep us, still, from publicly condemning certain Israeli actions that, taken in a vacuum or committed by a non-ally, would be completely unacceptable?
I think we are fanatically committed to Israel. You would think with the amount of aid we give them that we would have some influence over their behavior. Biden has 100% encouraged them in this battle. The pro-Israel forces are very strong in the US and have even shown a willingness to censor critical views.
Over 75% of the money given it must be spent in the US on weapons which means the purchase of US technology. The US in return gets billions a year in recommendations for improvements to that technology as Israel uses it. It also guarantees U.S. interests in the region given Israel's proximity to Syria to the northeast, Hezbollah-influenced Lebanon to the north and an Islamist insurgency in Egypt's Sinai to the south.
Yes, over a long period of time, Israel has received more aid that is totally justified. If they were not there defending democracy, we would be. China, Russia and Tehran would like nothing better than for a US ally removed from the Middle East.
Lisa, they aren't getting the most aid. Repeating false information serves no one.
Afghanistan-4.9 billion. Israel-3.9 billion, Jordan-1.9 billion, Egypt-1.71 billion. US foreign aid represents less than 1% of our national budget. If Israel wasn't in the Middle East, we would be. Two of our aircraft carriers are there right now!
Lisa, because they are not. Repeating false information serves no one. Afghanistan-4.9 billion, Israel, 3.9 billion, Jordan. 1.9 billion, Egypt 1.7 billion. Foreign aid represents 1% of US budget. It serves us well to have Israel in the Middle East. If they weren't there, we would be. Our two aircraft carriers ae there right now!
I have a theory that I have absolutely no evidence to back up. But it's the only thing I can think of that explains why good people like Biden would refuse to call an end to the genocidal slaughter of Palestinians. I think Israel has proof that we not only knew the 9/11 horror was about to happen, but planned for it, wiring the WTC and Tower 7 (which wasn't even hit by a plane) and pulled the lever that demolished all three buildings killing thousands of innocent Americans, so we could invade Iraq and steal its oil, which we did, and foolishly try to remake the Middle East into a "democratic"region patterned after the US. No Arab pulled the switch that set off the planned demolition while there were still so many people still inside. We did. And my guess is that Israel knows exactly who did that.
Alden, - One weakness in your hypothetical scenario is that no one in Israel could have anticipated that Bush Junior would blame Iraq; after all, the majority of the Arab terrorists involved in 9/11 were Saudis. If anyone should have been attacked by the U.S., it would be Saudi Arabia. Instead, the U.S. attacked a relatively secular regime that shunned radical Arab outfits. I think Bush Junior was seen by Israel's leadership at that time as out of control - simply hungry for Iraqi oil, and not acting in Israel's - or anyone else's - interest but U.S.'s own. And that's one reason Israel did not participate in the 2003 invasion of Iraq. Sensibly, they stayed out of it.
I don't believe for a minute that Israel had anything to do with 9/11. All the known perpetrators were Arabs - ALL of them. No-one could make that up! I'm not even convinced that Saudi's leadership had anything to do with it. It was an 'out-group' who did it.
If you want another example of the U.S. thirst for control of the world's fossil fuels, go no futher than their sabotage of the Nord Stream gas pipeline under the Baltic Sea in September 2022. This was an act of industrial warfare against their European NATO allies and against the sovereignty of their ally, the European Union. And then, rather pathetically, the Biden regime tries to blame (1) the Russians, and when that doesn't work, they blame (2) a Ukrainian outfit. As if.
I believe the current official version about 9/11 - for once. If the explanation accounts for known facts (as we know them) - that it was an Arab terrorist outfit that did it - then I'm going to apply Occam's Razor and say, "No-one else needs to be brought into the scenario". The field commander, Mohamed Atta, hated the brutalist glass and steel architecture imposed on his home town Cairo by Western developers, and he took a certain delight in demolishing two such brutalist towers in the world's gambling centre: New York.
I'm not suggesting that that was the sole, or central, motive behind the 9/11 attacks - just that it may have been one of several reasons in Atta's mind. I see him as a puritan aesthete.
I can't buy into that. I think the pro-Israel forces are very strong in the US and it's mostly younger people who have begun to seriously question what is going on with the treatment of the Palestinians.
Lisa, I agreed with you over the excess foreign aid the USA was giving Israel. I felt that it was being misused to expand Israel into Palestine territory. I do feel allied military support to Israel, should itIsrael be attacked is warranted, because they still are our greatest ally in the middle east.
This is awful! Anyone with whom you disagree becomes a Hamas supporter. One can be thoroughly disgusted with Hamas -- and at the same time be critical of Israel as a State and its policies of settlements and apartheid policies.
I don't. I support a good life for the Palestinians. I don't support removal of Israel. AI think it's high time Israel and the US invest in a wonderful state for the Palestinians. Too bad so many buildings have been reduced to dust now. Israel needs to accept that a Palestinian life and an Israeli life are equal. I'm pretty sure the far right of both groups do not believe that. Israel should try killing them with kindness.
The problem has always been that Palestinian leadership doesn't know how to say "yes". They've turned down every offer. No doubt the people would prefer a strong "yes".
1947: UN General Assembly partition proposal (UNGAR 181), rejected by the Arab League and the Higher Arab Committee for Palestine/.
1949: Israel's outstretched hand for peace (UNGAR 194), rejected by the Arab League and the Higher Arab committee for Palestine.
1967: Israel's outstretched hand for peace (UNSCR 242), rejected by the Arab League and the PLO.
1978: Begin/Sa’adat peace proposal, rejected (except for Egypt) by the rest of the Arab world, including the PLO.
1994: Rabin/Hussein peace agreement, rejected by the rest of the Arab League (except for Egypt and Jordan).
1995: Rabin's Contour-for-Peace, rejected by the Palestinian Authority.
2000: Barak/Clinton peace offer, rejected by Yasser Arafat, who then initiated the pre-planned second intifada.
2001: Barak’s offer at Taba, rejected by the Palestinian Authority.
2005: Sharon's peace gesture, withdrawal from Gaza, rejected by the Hamas takeover in 2007.
2008: Olmert/Bush peace offer, rejected by Mahmoud Abbas.
2009 to present: Netanyahu's repeated invitations to peace talks, rejected.
2014: Kerry's Contour-for-Peace, rejected by the Palestinian Authority.
2018: Trump’s “deal of the Century”, rejected in advance by Mahmoud Abbas.
2019: US Conference on Economic Benefit for the Palestinians, rejected by the Palestinian Authority.
2020: PA reiterates rejection of Trump’s “Deal of the Century” before it’s even presented.
2020: PA rejects and condemns the agreement between the UAR and Israel for normalization.
I repeat this message to you. The Palestinians are being prevented the life you wish for them by Iran/Hamas NOT the Israelis. Recently, it was revealed that the whole base of Hamas operations was found with video under Shifa hospital. Israel was not responsible for the Ahia hospital attack. It was Hamas's failed rocket launch. Food and water have been prevented from entering Gaza by Hamas, not Israel. Palestinians have been shot by Hamas fleeing to the south as Israel advised. Israel is fighting a ptropaganda war that they are winning, because there are 1.9 billion Muslims and 16million Jews. The UN has 195 countries, 56 are Islamic a clear majority.
I agree with all your observations & every point you make.
I really want to stay away from this conflict, an only slightly different, but even more troubling, version of a conflict I've seen repeated over & over during my life.
I am convinced the Hamas attack on Israel was plotted by Russia & Iran to divide the West & deflect Western attention & support from Ukraine in its existential struggle against Russia. It's having its intended results, unfortunately.
Both statements are true ; Netanyahu is as harmful (maybe more because he is 'domestic leader) as Russia and Iran ( and tfg who dominates a former, conservative party, that is now radical).
You are partially correct. Netanyahu like Bush 2 was warned in advance of the oncoming attack by Hamas. He didn't think it would be a major war. He thought it would be a short skirmish lasting a few days and would provide him with a get out of jail free card. Bush 2 stated he would never make the same mistake his father did. He was determined to use all of the political capital that he believed his father squandered. He was going to be a war time president. The Iraq war followed. Thousands died in an unnecessary war. Cheney brought Halliburton out of debt and became a billionaire. Both Netanyahu and Bush were absent without leave during the attack. Bush was found in Florida reading 'My Pet Goat' to a classroom of children and Netanyahu was no where to be found.
You express my own feelings, although I don't see how any of us will be able "to stay away from this conflict" because it is unleashing - yet again - violent hatreds everywhere.
Kick the traitors out of government and keep them off the ballot! They are disqualified in our Constitution for not upholding their oaths of office. the first case starts today, 10/30/2023, in Colorado! Michigan and Minnesota next.
You have my vote. We are a nation of laws and rules. Pretty basic that as a politician...it would be a given that you understand the words in your country's constitution, bill of rights, declaration of Independence, and at least know the federal laws. You can't just decide that you want to drive on the wrong side of the road because that's where you want to drive?
James, I wouldn't be surprised, however, Russia and Israel have had cordial relations until 10/7. Russia allowed Israel into Syrian air space the n they were attacked and Israel was the last to state publicly their support for Ukraine because of their mutual understanding.
What I fail to understand is why Joe Biden (a pretty clear minded individual, despite Republican attacks on his mental acuity) cannot see how blindly supporting the Israeli government as they murder innocent civilians on their quest for revenge against Hamas is abjectly wrong.
The simple fact remains innocent lives taken in the name of revenge is always wrong. There is no middle ground.
Complete mischaracterization of Biden's remarks: he clearly supports not killing innocent civilians.
The simple fact remains: mass murder of 1400 babies, children, women and men-- innocent civilians is always wrong. There is no middle ground. But when you include atrocities and hostage taking-- gosh, that's wrong too!.
I didn’t say he said it was okay, but he isn’t pushing the Israeli government hard enough on their “scorched earth” tactics. He needs to flatly condemn that.
I honestly do not know the answer but if we had been attacked by a terrorist organization controlling one of our borders, with the equivalent of 45,000 massacred and butchered and 1,000 taken hostages, our response would be what? Hamas uses its citizens as human shields which is itself a war crime that too few are condemning. Israel isn't spotless and I would love to see Netanyahu in jail but look at what Israel is dealing with. Hamas' Charter calls not just for the destruction of Israel but the killing of Jews worldwide. That includes me and my family and to be quite honest, I'm not okay with that. Everyone in that corner of the world deserves peace. I don't have the answers but I do know that if Hamas can be defused, that is a good start. BTW, 60% of the population in Gaza supports Hamas and Fatah's Abbas hasn't held an election for many years as he knows the result would be a Hamas takeover. Seems it has popularity that is not healthy for anyone.
And is killing 83000 Palestinians even remotely logical as a response? It's not even proportional. It's the second Naqba. October 7, inexcusable and horrifying as it was, did not happen in a vacuum. It happened after the first Naqba and 17 years of living in an open air concentration camp.
You get your 83,000 number from where? Shaun King?
How many infants should Israel have shot or burned alive in a proportional response? How many women should the IDF have raped, and killed, parading their naked bodies in the streets to be spat on? How many children should have been executed in fromntof their parents? How many parents should have been executed in front of their children? How many people killed killed and butchered? All of these acts deliberate acts of savagery.
What “open air concentration” camp? Using the language of Nazi Germany that wiped out 2/3 of European Jews is an indication of your mindset.
A terrorist group on your border states that it wants to kill you and everyone in your country. You build a fence to protect your people. They break down the fence and then you say, “well you imprisoned them”. We should have allowed them to fulfill their Charter; the destruction of Israel and the killing of all Jews.
Not a prison for those living in upscale Rimal in Gaza with its 5-star hotels and ritzy salons. Google it. Hamas leaders live the good life there, in Qatar, and Beirut using the many international millions donated for its own people and damn the people it is supposed to govern. Hamas’ leader’s life was saved while in an Israeli jail with surgery on a brain tumor before he was released, a mistake which I’m sure they have regretted.
As to the Nakba, there was no plot to expel Palestinian Arabs before the war but many of them were expelled when the fighting started. Many also just fled, told by Arab leaders that they could return after the war was won. Why they were made refugees in perpetuity is another political story.
On the other hand, where are the Jews in Egypt, Iraq, Jordan, Kuwait, Lebanon, Libya. Morocco? Once upon a time the Middle East was full of Jews. Algeria had 140,000Jews. Where are its Jews? Egypt used to have 75,000 Jews. Where are its Jews? Syria had tens of thousands of Jews. Where are its Jews?
Israel’s Arabs, whatever challenges they face enjoy full rights to vote and to be elected to the Knesset’s. They work as doctors and lawyers. They serve on the Supreme Court.
Arab countries expelled their Jews in 1947 and 1948, their property and belongings confiscated. Israel took in all those who wanted to be there and others were repatriated to other countries including the USA. Unlike the Arab nations who created refugees in perpetuity to be used as a political tool against Israel.
To justify the barbarism and savagery that occurred on October 7th is disgusting. And I’m being polite.
Diplomacy and negotiations must occur in the background. Biden is an experienced hand at this. The corporate press is thirsting for sensational headlines to get viewers rather than caring about a resolution.
In fact, the press loves a conflict because it generates ratings. CNN was propelled to fame by the first Gulf war. It has only gotten worse with more media channels vying for ratings.
Yes, it would seem that 'back channel' negotiations are unlikely to be happening at this point in any meaningful way. Biden has sadly failed to act in any decisive way to try to gain control of the situation. He should by now have called for a ceasefire. He has not. He should by now have officially called for the opening of humanitarian corridors. He has not. He should have condemned the indiscriminate bombing of civilians and demanded safe havens for women, children, the elderly and the infirm. He has not. He should have called the bombing of hospitals and forced migration of half the population war crimes, because under international war they are. He did not.
"Biden should have officially called for the opening of humanitarian corridors." Here are some headlines you might have missed. "White House: Humanitarian Corridor for"
www.npr.org › live-updates › Biden-israel-gaza-Israel-Hamas war updates: Israel and Egypt agree to let aid ...
Oct 18, 2023 · President Biden's visit to Israel
www.npr.org › 2023/10/18 › Biden makes deal on aid delivery to Gaza : NPR
Oct 18, 2023 · In his visit to Israel, President Biden made a deal on limited humanitarian aid delivery to Gaza. Twelve days ago, Hamas killed 1,400 people in Israel. "
"Oct 12, 2023- Biden urges Israeli leader to minimize civilian casualties in ...Oct 11, 2023 · In a private phone call Tuesday, President Joe Biden urged Israel’s prime minister to minimize civilian casualties in the Gaza Strip. The U.S. wants to create a corridor through which innocent"www.nytimes.com › 2023/11/02 › US-Biden Administration to Press Israel for ‘Pauses’ in War With ...
Nov 2, 2023 · The push for what American officials call “humanitarian pauses” is one of several subjects Mr. Blinken will raise with Mr. Netanyahu and other officials when he arrives in Israel on Friday for" ... I would be interested to know what your reaction would be if 50,000 Americans were killed in a Hamas attack? Israel-1400 murdered in cold blood. Population-9.1 million, US population-330 million. Do the math.
You choose to ignore that they were killed in response to Hamas's invasion. In addition, there has been video footage by the NYT, Jerusalem Post, and many US news outlets, showing how explosives and tunnels dug under homes and hospitals cause the deaths of thousands of Palestinians. They are used as human shields in every battle Hamas has engaged in. When confronted, Hamas has said Palestinians have to be Martyrs . They respect the dead more than the living! Audio also revealed Hamas planning the invasion on 10/7/23. Thousands of Palestinians have been prevented from moving south as Israel warned at gun point by Hamas. Many are killed in the crossfire. I might also note hundreds of Hamas terrorists were killed by faulty rocket launches that missed their target and fell short, landing on them in the numbers you quoted. Blaming Jews for their own deaths is an old Jewish trope that brought Hitler to power.
I'm not disputing the atrocities perpetrated by Hamas on 7th Oct. However, contrary to what media reported at the time, there was never any evidence that babies were "beheaded" or children were deliberately killed. Those stories emanated from a single unidentified IDF soldier who has refused to go on the record. Of course there is never any justification for killing ANY civilians, but that applies equally on both sides. Israel likes to talk about Gaza as if it were a state when it suits it, though it has certainly never treated it as one. The truth is that you cannot have it bother ways: if Gaza is a state it would have its own defence forces, its own anti-missile systems, its own means of freely trading with other countries, and even having physical access to other countries. But Gaza has none of these things and has been prevented from having them since 1967. Gaza is an enclave, effectively cut off from the entire world, and its people are not even permitted to fish in their own waters. Israel is the by far the strongest military power in the entire Middle East, armed to the teeth with the latest weapons, and is even a nuclear power. David vs Goliath doesn't quite cut it.
IMO (increasingly shared by many people even in the US and Israel itself) Israel has been and is guilty of war crimes and crimes against humanity, and its reaction to Hamas' attack breaches every civilised standard I can think of. You talk of Hamas tunnels under hospitals etc. Even if that were true (I have yet to see the evidence), it does not give the IDF any right to bomb hospitals or ambulances or schools or refugee centres, especially in areas where they have directed civilians to go. You can talk about "faulty rocket launchers" killing hundreds, but even if that unsubstantiated claim were true, it's a drop in the ocean compared to carnage Israeli ordnance has directly caused and you know it.
Palestinians were not prevented from moving south - 1.4 million of them have done so, perhaps the biggest ever displacement of people in history over such a short period. some more records broken - the highest proportion of children killed (nearly 50% and mostly under 7),, the most destruction of civilian infrastructure excluding the nuclear attacks on Japan... And all the while Israel blockades the entire area, not even allowing in sufficient medical aid, food water or fuel. Of course Palestinians want to be martyrs - what other choice do they have?
You assume too much. Blinken and Biden were in Israel working out an agreement that Israel and the US agreed to. Israel waited 3 weeks to invade with their economy about to collapse due to the 300,000 troops that had to be mobilized. Looking for a reason to support the Palestinians that are being controlled by Hamas is very evident.
They didn't have to mobilise the troops - waste of time and money. This conflict will never be solved militarily. If you believe that, you're living in cloud cuckoo land
Tim, you have either bought the kool-aid the the Iran propaganda war has delivered to the world, or you are resistant to what's plainly evident for your eyes and ears to hear.
This is a letter sent to Edinburgh University. It should have been sent to American universities and many people on this thread.
The ignorance among students in our prestigious universities is breathtaking!!
please circulate to counter the lies , Ignorance and misinformation .This is an incredible letter written by a non-Jewish Scottish professor to his students who voted to boycott Israel.
It's a response from Dr Denis MacEoin, a non-Jewish professor, to the motion put forward by The Edinburgh Student's Association to boycott all things Israeli, in which they claim Israel is under an apartheid regime. Denis is an expert in Middle Eastern affairs and was a senior editor of the Middle East Quarterly. Here's his letter to the students.
TO: The Committee Edinburgh University Student Association.
May I be permitted to say a few words to members of the EUSA? I am an Edinburgh graduate (MA 1975) who studied Persian, Arabic and Islamic History in Buccleuch Place under William Montgomery Watt and Laurence Elwell Sutton, two of Britain's great Middle East experts in their day. I later went on to do a PhD at Cambridge and to teach Arabic and Islamic Studies at Newcastle University . Naturally, I am the author of several books and hundreds of articles in this field.
I say all that to show that I am well informed in Middle Eastern affairs and that, for that reason, I am shocked and disheartened by the EUSA motion and vote.
I am shocked for a simple reason: there is not and has never been a system of apartheid in Israel .
That is not my opinion, that is fact that can be tested against reality by any Edinburgh student, should he or she choose to visit Israel to see for themselves. Let me spell this out, since I have the impression that those members of EUSA who voted for this motion are absolutely clueless in matters concerning Israel, and that they are, in all likelihood, the victims of extremely biased propaganda coming from the anti-Israel lobby.
Being anti-Israel is not in itself objectionable. But I'm not talking about ordinary criticism of Israel.
I'm speaking of a hatred that permits itself no boundaries in the lies and myths it pours out.
Thus, Israel is repeatedly referred to as a "Nazi" state. In what sense is this true, even as a metaphor?
Where are the Israeli concentration camps?
The einzatsgruppen?
The SS?
The Nuremberg Laws?
The Final Solution?
None of these things nor anything remotely resembling them exists in Israel , precisely because the Jews, more than anyone on earth, understand what Nazism stood for.
It is claimed that there has been an Israeli Holocaust in Gaza (or elsewhere).
Where?
When?
No honest historian would treat that claim with anything but the contempt it deserves.
But calling Jews Nazis and saying they have committed a Holocaust is as basic a way to subvert historical fact as anything I can think of.
Likewise apartheid.
For apartheid to exist, there would have to be a situation that closely resembled how things were in South Africa under the apartheid regime. Unfortunately for those who believe this, a weekend in any part of Israel would be enough to show how ridiculous the claim is.
That a body of university students actually fell for this and voted on it is a sad comment on the state of modern education.
The most obvious focus for apartheid would be the country's 20% Arab population.
Under Israeli law, Arab Israelis have exactly the same rights as Jews or anyone else;
Muslims have the same rights as Jews or Christians;
Bahais, severely persecuted in Iran, flourish in Israel, where they have their world center;
Ahmadi Muslims, severely persecuted in Pakistan and elsewhere, are kept safe by Israel;
the holy places of all religions are protected under a specific Israeli law.
Arabs form 20% of the university population (an exact echo of their percentage in the general population).
In Iran, the Bahai's (the largest religious minority) are forbidden to study in any university or to run their own universities: why aren't your members boycotting Iran?
Arabs in Israel can go anywhere they want, unlike blacks in apartheid South Africa.
They use public transport, they eat in restaurants, they go to swimming pools, they use libraries, they go to cinemas alongside Jews - something no blacks were able to do in South Africa.
Israeli hospitals not only treat Jews and Arabs, they also treat Palestinians from Gaza or the West Bank. On the same wards, in the same operating theatres.
In Israel , women have the same rights as men: there is no gender apartheid.
Gay men and women face no restrictions, and Palestinian gays often escape into Israel, knowing they may be killed at home.
It seems bizarre to me that LGBT groups call for a boycott of Israel and say nothing about countries like Iran , where gay men are hanged or stoned to death. That illustrates a mindset that beggars belief.
Intelligent students thinking it's better to be silent about regimes that kill gay people, but good to condemn the only country in the Middle East that rescues and protects gay people.
Is that supposed to be a sick joke?
University is supposed to be about learning to use your brain, to think rationally, to examine evidence, to reach conclusions based on solid evidence, to compare sources, to weigh up one view against one or more others.
If the best Edinburgh can now produce are students who have no idea how to do any of these things, then the future is bleak.
I do not object to well-documented criticism of Israel.
I do object when supposedly intelligent people single the Jewish state out above states that are horrific in their treatment of their populations.
We are going through the biggest upheaval in the Middle East since the 7th and 8th centuries, and it's clear that Arabs and Iranians are rebelling against terrifying regimes that fight back by killing their own citizens.
Israeli citizens, Jews and Arabs alike, do not rebel (though they are free to protest).
Yet Edinburgh students mount no demonstrations and call for no boycotts against Libya, Bahrain, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, and Iran.They prefer to make false accusations against one of the world's freest countries, the only country in the Middle East that has taken in Darfur refugees, the only country in the Middle East that gives refuge to gay men and women, the only country in the Middle East that protects the Bahai's... Need I go on?
The imbalance is perceptible, and it sheds no credit on anyone who voted for this boycott.
Israel is an independent country not a providence of the U.S. Biden can influence direction and clearly has taken actions to influence the direction. He cannot order things to be done. The hubris of the Cheney-Bush administration should not be repeated.
We simply do not know what is happening in the diplomatic channels. We have a President who understands how to work the complexities of all the involved parties. A significant issue no doubt is the the current ruling coalition in Israel is not likely to survive this crisis. What emerges represents significant risks in many directions.
The US has never and has not now acted without US approval! It's not in their interest to have the US President support them. They are anything but stupid.
100% agreement!! I do believe President Biden warned Israel of a ground assault. He also told them mistakes would be made if they didn't stop and think before attacking out of revenge.
I don't think Biden is blindly supporting Israel but he is following the prevailing sentiment to be pro-Israel. As wrong as I think it is, he is trying to straddle both sides.
Donna, As one of just 14 countries that opposed the UN General Assembly’s overwhelming vote for a humanitarian ceasefire in Gaza, admittedly not binding, the United States, along with Israel, has isolated itself from the world community. I imagine we might not know for some time the consequences of the Biden Administration’s opposition to the pause to allow for greater humanitarian aid.
I further would note, while I’m aware the opposing votes were justified based on the concern that Hamas would prevent the aid from getting to the people, frankly, I don’t accept the premise.
Donna, it is my understanding that the role of a mediator is to "straddle both sides"; at present, Biden is promoting a cease fire to protect innocent Palestinians & allow supplies into Gaza, while also living up to the USA alliance to protect Israel against Arab terrorism. Biden is encouraging a cooler head of patience, negotiations to free Israeli hostages, while applying selected military action to flush out the Hamas terrorists, without further harm to Palestinian civillians
Between two stools you fall to the ground. I like Joe Biden, but his leadership is seriously lacking in this conflict, and the tail is wagging the dog.
Biden made clear statements imploring Netanyahu to avoid revenge on the Gazans. He said it more than once or twice. He also warned HAMAS not to steal aid that was meant to help the Gaza civilians. It is not his fault that HAMAs uses civilians as shields and built tunnels under schools, places of worship, hospitals and apartment buildings.
Laurie, I really think there are subtle signals that allies send each other during such times; "Implore" doesn't quite cut it. This crazy stuff has been going on for more than 3 weeks now and is escalating out of control. Biden's the only leader in the world Israel is going to listen to and he's acting like vanilla milquetoast. The world really needs more from him.
I believe it was the NYT that revealed Hamas's base of operations were found under Shifa hospital last week. Hundreds of gallons of fuel and food were found enough to supply Hamas with 4 months worth of fuel. Also revealed by video were the tunnels dug by Hamas under the hospital that led to the interior rooms of the hospital. Is that not enough evidence to convince Hamas and Palestinian supporters that they are an evil organization with the sole intent of destroying any credibility Israel has?
That's very well said, and is the reason why both Joe Biden and the Israeli state have not been winning the public relations battle, whereas Hamas are winning it, whether you agree with their policies or not. A Yougov poll of US voters yesterday showed support for a sharp rise in support for Palestinians versus a corresponding decline in support for Israel. Like it or not, this war is being fought on social media, and Israel losing it.
I believe I have been saying this in more than a dozen of my posts. It is a propaganda war and Israel is losing. There are 1.9 billion Muslims and 16 million Jews. That combined with comments like, it was a mistake for Israel to invade Hamas or the poor Palestinians along with their number dead broadcast, over and over again but never a human cry for the Jewish babies beheaded or the youngsters enjoying a music festival murdered or adults shot in their own homes contribute to helping Hamas win the propaganda war, whether you condemn Hamas or not.
Eadie, - The report of the beheaded babies has never been confirmed. You are making use of an Israeli rumour to support your case.
The same with the alleged tunnels under hospitals. The hospital staff question their existence, and so far I have not seen any evidence of them - confirmed by reliable sources. So far, the tunnels-under-hospitals are no more than a part of Israel's propaganda war. So far, all I have seen on British television is the uniform and belongings of one inserectionist, together a number of AK rifles. This doesn't prove that the place was a Hamas hub or headquarters; far from it.
I don't see Biden so much supporting Israel's military aggression as so much assisting its defense. Biden proposed a cool head & patience, negotiating a truce or peace settlement, rather than Netanyahu's fixation upon revenge & pursuit of Hamas terrorists throughout Palestine itself. I fear that this "invasion" gives his right wing party an excuse in his attempt to annex Palestian territory as a means of protection to Israel. This only serves to drive more young Palestinians into the influence of terrorists groups, mistaking their adherence to Hamas terrorist group for their desire to protect their state's defense against IDF. Israel is attacking the Hamas terrorists & not the state of Palestine. Meantime, the whole population of the Gaza strip is suffering directly from the terrorist action of Hamas, while at the same time world viewing IDF search & destroy, along with Israel's self-defense & returning rocket fire as aggressive action & apartheid against Palestinians. It appears Israel is between a rock & a hard place; should it fake steps in attempt to flush out Hamas by cutting off water, electricity, fuel energy, food , medical supplies, it devistates the innocent citizens of Gaza strip; if they do not take action, the Hamas terrorist confiscate any supplies necessary to continue their attacks upon Israel. I did not see any news regarding immediate humanitarian help coming into Gaza from neighboring Arab nations; but I did hear of military aggression & Hezboola terrorist support against the Israeli/ Palestine West Bank bordering Syria & Lebanon. Drone & rocket fire has even been directed at non-participating observers allies as the USA, enticing returned fire.
I cannot foresee IDF totally stamping out
such Arab terrorists groups, because these groups continously use the innocent civillian population as shields, indoctrinate & recruit youth as pawns in the Arab proxy terrorists quest to destroy Israel's existence.
IDF will have to do a urban warfare, using specialty trained troops to search & destroy the Hamas terrorists network of tunnels built under hospitals, schools, apt bldg residences, ect & to eliminate the cashes of terrorist's weapons, supplies, communication, ect.
Hamas is using their civillian Israeli hostages to pressure Israel to hold off military ground invasion, while Israel is using the withholding of water, food, fuel medical supplies to Gaza to pressure Hamas to release the hostages. Both sides are harming the innocent Palestinians who are trapped between the two forces. Meantime, states as Iran, a theocratic government, who is sponsoring these terrorists is watching, waiting to see how much global support for Israel exists
as the Arab desire to exterminate the Jewish state becomes more inflamed.
Iran's clandestine support of Hamas Oct. 7 massacre into Israel coincided with a possible peace accord between Saudi Arabia & Israel was ironic, because such an agreement would be a threat to Iran's military strength in the middle east.
Susan, you don't really believe that if the UN were allowed to bring in vital food and water they would let those supplies fall into the hands of Hamas. That's just an Israel lie that you choose to believe to excuse what your beloved Israel is actually doing which is the second Naqba. Think more clearly.
This is a letter sent to Edinburgh University. It should have been sent to American universities and many people on this thread.
The ignorance among students in our prestigious universities is breathtaking!!
please circulate to counter the lies , Ignorance and misinformation .This is an incredible letter written by a non-Jewish Scottish professor to his students who voted to boycott Israel.
It's a response from Dr Denis MacEoin, a non-Jewish professor, to the motion put forward by The Edinburgh Student's Association to boycott all things Israeli, in which they claim Israel is under an apartheid regime. Denis is an expert in Middle Eastern affairs and was a senior editor of the Middle East Quarterly. Here's his letter to the students.
TO: The Committee Edinburgh University Student Association.
May I be permitted to say a few words to members of the EUSA? I am an Edinburgh graduate (MA 1975) who studied Persian, Arabic and Islamic History in Buccleuch Place under William Montgomery Watt and Laurence Elwell Sutton, two of Britain's great Middle East experts in their day. I later went on to do a PhD at Cambridge and to teach Arabic and Islamic Studies at Newcastle University . Naturally, I am the author of several books and hundreds of articles in this field.
I say all that to show that I am well informed in Middle Eastern affairs and that, for that reason, I am shocked and disheartened by the EUSA motion and vote.
I am shocked for a simple reason: there is not and has never been a system of apartheid in Israel .
That is not my opinion, that is fact that can be tested against reality by any Edinburgh student, should he or she choose to visit Israel to see for themselves. Let me spell this out, since I have the impression that those members of EUSA who voted for this motion are absolutely clueless in matters concerning Israel, and that they are, in all likelihood, the victims of extremely biased propaganda coming from the anti-Israel lobby.
Being anti-Israel is not in itself objectionable. But I'm not talking about ordinary criticism of Israel.
I'm speaking of a hatred that permits itself no boundaries in the lies and myths it pours out.
Thus, Israel is repeatedly referred to as a "Nazi" state. In what sense is this true, even as a metaphor?
Where are the Israeli concentration camps?
The einzatsgruppen?
The SS?
The Nuremberg Laws?
The Final Solution?
None of these things nor anything remotely resembling them exists in Israel , precisely because the Jews, more than anyone on earth, understand what Nazism stood for.
It is claimed that there has been an Israeli Holocaust in Gaza (or elsewhere).
Where?
When?
No honest historian would treat that claim with anything but the contempt it deserves.
But calling Jews Nazis and saying they have committed a Holocaust is as basic a way to subvert historical fact as anything I can think of.
Likewise apartheid.
For apartheid to exist, there would have to be a situation that closely resembled how things were in South Africa under the apartheid regime. Unfortunately for those who believe this, a weekend in any part of Israel would be enough to show how ridiculous the claim is.
That a body of university students actually fell for this and voted on it is a sad comment on the state of modern education.
The most obvious focus for apartheid would be the country's 20% Arab population.
Under Israeli law, Arab Israelis have exactly the same rights as Jews or anyone else;
Muslims have the same rights as Jews or Christians;
Bahais, severely persecuted in Iran, flourish in Israel, where they have their world center;
Ahmadi Muslims, severely persecuted in Pakistan and elsewhere, are kept safe by Israel;
the holy places of all religions are protected under a specific Israeli law.
Arabs form 20% of the university population (an exact echo of their percentage in the general population).
In Iran, the Bahai's (the largest religious minority) are forbidden to study in any university or to run their own universities: why aren't your members boycotting Iran?
Arabs in Israel can go anywhere they want, unlike blacks in apartheid South Africa.
They use public transport, they eat in restaurants, they go to swimming pools, they use libraries, they go to cinemas alongside Jews - something no blacks were able to do in South Africa.
Israeli hospitals not only treat Jews and Arabs, they also treat Palestinians from Gaza or the West Bank. On the same wards, in the same operating theatres.
In Israel , women have the same rights as men: there is no gender apartheid.
Gay men and women face no restrictions, and Palestinian gays often escape into Israel, knowing they may be killed at home.
It seems bizarre to me that LGBT groups call for a boycott of Israel and say nothing about countries like Iran , where gay men are hanged or stoned to death. That illustrates a mindset that beggars belief.
Intelligent students thinking it's better to be silent about regimes that kill gay people, but good to condemn the only country in the Middle East that rescues and protects gay people.
Is that supposed to be a sick joke?
University is supposed to be about learning to use your brain, to think rationally, to examine evidence, to reach conclusions based on solid evidence, to compare sources, to weigh up one view against one or more others.
If the best Edinburgh can now produce are students who have no idea how to do any of these things, then the future is bleak.
I do not object to well-documented criticism of Israel.
I do object when supposedly intelligent people single the Jewish state out above states that are horrific in their treatment of their populations.
We are going through the biggest upheaval in the Middle East since the 7th and 8th centuries, and it's clear that Arabs and Iranians are rebelling against terrifying regimes that fight back by killing their own citizens.
Israeli citizens, Jews and Arabs alike, do not rebel (though they are free to protest).
Yet Edinburgh students mount no demonstrations and call for no boycotts against Libya, Bahrain, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, and Iran.
They prefer to make false accusations against one of the world's freest countries, the only country in the Middle East that has taken in Darfur refugees, the only country in the Middle East that gives refuge to gay men and women, the only country in the Middle East that protects the Bahai's... Need I go on?
The imbalance is perceptible, and it sheds no credit on anyone who voted for this boycott.
Who's blind? Think again! You are willing to ignore convincing evidence by the NYT that Hamas has been responsible for most of the plight the Palestinians find themselves in. They are fighting a propaganda war and you refuse to admit it. Audio and video evidence showing Hamas base of operations under Shifa hospital. The Ahia hospital was hit by a failed Hamas rocket launch not Israel. Who is preventing food and water into Gaza. NOT ISRAEL. Hamas is doing this. Who is killing Palestinians fleeing to the south as Israel advised? NOT ISRAEL! Once again the answer is Hamas. What will it take for you to remove your blinders. Blaming Jews is an old trope used to bring Hitler to power. We might be next if people choose to believe it has to be Israel who is at fault!
The suffering of civilians is so incredible, it's worse than 911 where it was limited in time and scope. The intense bombing of Gaza has been going on for weeks and it looks like there are few to NO options for the Palestinans. What really worries me is how many more people will grow up with hate because of their oppression and loss of families. It's so horrific for everyone but especially the Palestinians.
No, Daniel. Israel is the only party here using force. The borders are sealed and there's no escape, and the IDF / Israeli government don't give a rat's ass who they hit - 'revenge' in their eyes, mass murder in most other people's. There are no meaningful talks taking place anywhere, least of all Qatar.
Have you seen the NYT article? Have seen the video footage and audio that shows Hamas planting explosives under Palestinian homes. Have you seen the Hamas base of operations under Shifa hospital or did you ignore the failed rocket launch by Hamas that hit the hospital parking lot? Or are you trying to provoke a rebuttal? You can't be blind to what is happening or can you?
Eadie, - As I've said before, so far I've seen no confirmed evidence of any 'Hamas base of operations' under Al Shifa hospital. I have seen no evidence of tunnels under the hospital. You are relying on Israeli-engendered rumours in a fierce propaganda war. More and more people are becoming skeptical about what official IDF and Israeli government spokespeople are telling us. As you say yourself, Israel is losing the propaganda war, and there are good reasons for this.
This is why the cycle is so hard to break! These young people who have watched their families and friend being taken. Yes, they grow up with hatred! I would find it difficult to not hate someone who killed someone in my family or one of my friends!! So the cycle continues.
The ONLY moral compass thru this entire mess is simply STOP FIGHTING. There is no reason for humans in 2023 to engage in war.
I won't take sides. The only side I take is with the citizens in each country who are being punished by having their quality of life torn to shreds. We, as modern human beings can no longer afford to live like this. This warring negativity affects all of Humanity...
Yvonne Jackson Well said! War itself IS a crime! We have war in the cradle of religion, we have universities and intelligence to solve so many problems. Why stay in a stone-age mentality? Profit!!?? All the money in the world is useless with what is unfolding now!!! All the fossil fuel on this planet can destroy it, if this persists.
Too bad the UK and US had no moral compass when we destroyed Iran’s fledgling democracy in 1953 so we could steal their oil. Or when we launched a devastating war against Iraq based on a blurry image of a building in a field somewhere (could have been Kansas) that “housed weapons of mass destruction.” We need to clearly acknowledge how we have contributed to the current instability in the Middle East.
To understand the current conflict , we must also know and appreciate history --- only then we will know why so much hatred permeates this region.
The story starts in 1890s with Herzl (Austrian intellectual) arguing that the Jewish people having suffered from recent Russian progroms (and historically in many European countries) must have a State of their own. In order to satisfy the Jewish bankers Rothschild family, Arthur Balfour the Foreign Minister of Great Britain during the First World War in 1917 signed a letter, often called the Balfour Doctrine. He assured the Jewish people that when the war would be over, Britain will take Palestine from the Ottoman Turkey and provide this to them for a Jewish Nation. This was an astute move, as there were many Jewish industrialists in Germany and Balfour also hoped that they would now turn against the German government during the War. This is the basis of Hitler's claiming later that the Jews had "stabbed Germany in the back" during WWI as they considered themselves mainly as Jewish and not German. Balfour did not think the views of the Palestinians [Arabs, Muslims, Catholics, non-Arabs] who were already living in Palestine was important -- this was imperial colonialism at its worst, promising the land of a second party to another third party with no involvement of the second party!
In 1919, during the Versailles Treaty negotiations, as expected Britain took over Palestine and Iraq (they wanted the oil from Mosul), while France was given Syria and Lebanon. The boundary line drawn was named the Sykes-Picot line -- they were the British and French negotiators of this border. No consultations, no Referendums with the local resident Palestinians.
In 1945 onwards, the Jewish population of Russia, Poland, Germany and East Europe who had survived the Nazis, started to move to Palestine. The Europeans and Americans had a collective guilt complex about the Holocaust. So, they did nothing about the local Palestinians. There was civil war between the incoming Europeans settlers and the local Palestinians. "Irgun" and other terrorist Jewish organisations were funded by the American Jewish Charities -- they set fire to Palestinian homes, and killed enough people -- so that the Palestinians moved out of their homes. This forced movement from their homes is called the NAKBA. Other Palestinians simply sold their homes to the Jewish immigrants at very low prices and also moved.
This was 1947-48.
When Britain withdrew from Palestine, the Jewish people called the new state Israel and the resulting small war led to more Palestinians moving out . GAZA settlement dates from 1948.
"Those of us not ourselves lost in the fog of war urgently need to understand this more nuanced story. That despite the fact that Britain’s promising of a land to the Jews that was not theirs to give away stinks of imperialism, early Jewish settlers were far from their imperial soldiers, but a persecuted population failed by global governments pre and post Holocaust. That while Israel’s early paramilitaries didn’t march to the beat of Europe’s imperial drum, to the Palestinians who by 1948 were expelled from their land, what difference?"
Wow! " Balfour did not think the views of the Palestinians [Arabs, Muslims, Catholics, non-Arabs] who were already living in Palestine was important -- this was imperial colonialism at its worst, promising the land of a second party to another third party with no involvement of the second party!" No, Lokhi, Chaim Weitzman invented acetone, something England found indispensable. Without Acetone, England would not have won WWI. After WWI, the spoils of war were divided between the allied powers. England got a mandate over Palestine. In 1922, Churchill enlisted the support of Abdullah to create a Jewish homeland. Abdullah, representing the Arabs would only agree if Transjordan was created. Jordan received 80% of the land and Israel got 20% of the land promised by the Balfour declaration. It was reduced to the size of Connecticut or New Jersey. Jordan walked away with the lion's share of the territory extending its land all the way to Syria. JNF bought thousands of acres of land sold to them by Arab Sheiks NOT because they were forced to but because they believed it was mostly a swamp. I paraphrase. Marl Twain said it was barren, you didn't see a human for 30 miles. He said it won the prize for being the ugliest place on earth. Loki, I believe your comments are misleading , IMHO.
Eadie, - Here you are repeating an irrelevancy: "No, Lokhi, Chaim Weitzman invented acetone, something England found indispensable. Without Acetone, England would not have won WWI". - I've never heard of acetone, and if it played any role in the Allies' victory, it's never ever mentioned. Did it play any role in the Soviet victory on the Eastern Front? I doubt it.
Again you re-circulate the Balfour Declaration of 1917, as if it were holy scriptures. As I've pointed out to you, Balfour admits in a piece of private writing that he will not seek the opinions of the Arabs in Palestine because their case could not possibly be as strong as the case put forward by the Zionists in England - who lobbid both Balfour and Lloyd George. So, Balfour was biased and his declaration was based on his bias. Why do you ignore this relevant information?
May I remind you, also, that in 1917 the demographics of Palestine was c. 90% Arabs/Palestinian settlers and c. 10% Jewish settlers. The Palestinian settlers had settled there many generation ago, so we can argue that they had native title to their land. By choosing to ignore them, Balfour was ignoring 90% of the population of Palestine. Do you claim that this was fair and wise?
Talk about being on the defensive. You are sending me messages at 12:31 am trying to defend your point of view. You doubt that Weizmann was a significant contributor to England winning the war. Again, your ignorance is only exceeded by your hubris.
The Balfour Declaration was a statement and a promise that Arthur Balfour and Lord Rothchild firmly believed. Jews living in Europe, they believed was an untenable situation for them, and therefore, they wanted Jews to return to their biblical homeland, or do you also challenge that assertion? It was a promise in 1917, not an agreement.
Arthur Balfour invented acetone. Historians, chemists, news outlets at the time agreed that it was a significant contribution to England winning WWI. The fact that you doubt it holds no water with me, nor any credible, recognized organization commenting on the issue.
“The Balfour Declaration (1917), the first formal international recognition of Zionism, was, to some extent, a culmination of Weizmann's scientific and political efforts. His fermentation process, which contributed to the Allies' victory in World War I, was not a direct cause of the declaration but was certainly an indirect one.” As I said, the direct cause was giving Jews a place to flee to from the proms and ghettos.
“As history has shown, the discovery had implications beyond science. When asked by UK Foreign Secretary Arthur Balfour what he wished to receive in return for his contribution to the war effort, Dr. Weizmann boldly replied, “There is only one thing I want: a national home for my people.” Duly impressed, Lord Balfour issued the famous Balfour Declaration of 1917 committing the British government to the establishment of a national home for the Jewish people in what was then Ottoman ruled Palestine.”
“The importance of Weizmann's work to the ongoing war effort encouraged Foreign Secretary Arthur Balfour to issue the Balfour Declaration of 1917 in support of Weizmann's Zionist objectives as Weizmann ascended to the presidency of the British Zionist Federation.[3]”
Your comment regarding Israel’s population at the time of the Balfour Declaration was a well known fact. It doesn’t in anyway diminish the argument I’ve made under the league of Nations or the creation of Israel in 1948 and certainly not in a review of the historical evidence for centuries. If you took your head out of the news outlets and intellectuals you appear to value and actually studied opposing views by Britanica, Encyclopedia, Chemistry Explained, Curiosity and the Times of Israel, you might learn something. I repeat ad nauseam, rulers of Palestine: Philistines, Jews, Babylonians, Romans, Byzantine Empire, Crusades, Ottoman Empire, England & France after WWI. Allied Powers after WW !!. The Jews control the area now.
I purposely started at the modern geopolitics --- and not the claim of "ancient ancestral land of the Jewish people."
I am Indian, Hindu -- not Jewish, not Muslim. There are mountains called Hindu-Kush which were the borders of the Hindu-Shahi monarchs of Afghanistan and China. Should I today claim the Indian borders go back to the Hindu-Kush? Or, to Khotan, which was settled by Emperor Ashoka's son with the first Buddhist missionaries?
Two thousand years is a long time.
We must respect that people have settled and established homes here over time -- and this must be respected. Otherwise, the Greeks should claim Anatolia -- ancient Magna Grecia -- or Germans should claim Polish East Prussia and Chezch Bohemia (Sudetenland) from where 13mm Germans were expelled only as recently as 1946
Right on all counts Robert! What Israel needs is new and uncorrupted leadership. And what is needed in Gaza right now is an immediate ceasefire and humanitarian aid. Too many people are suffering and dying already!
Israel does need new leadership, for sure. We could probably help that along by attaching conditions, not just wishes, to US aid. IMO we should have said a long time ago that if Israel persisted in supporting illegal West Bank settlers, we would turn off the spigot.
As often happens, I wake up in the middle of my night to urinate. Sometimes, I go back to bed, too often I begin to doomscroll.
This morning, I tried to do some work, tried to play an online game but ended up doomscolling and then found you.
I have many reasons that I cannot focus. I suppose first is I have severe, chronic and persistent mental illness.
But these days I have another reason, I have family in Israel. In fact, I have hundreds of family in Israel. Some of them live there, some of them were there to celebrate the holidays with my uncle, who is 95 and not in good health and may not live another year.
For my family that lives in Israel, this is the most dangerous time since the creation of the state of Israel over 75 years ago.
I just read a New York times article that says there is a gathering feeling that Biden's support of Israel will cost him the 2024 election. That would be a shame for him but, if any of the current people who are running for President on the Republican side, win, a tragedy for the United States. I hope that I am wrong but I believe it is true.
Meanwhile in five hours, i will go to "feedback" session and tell people who are charged with ending homelessness in Illinois about how I think the current plan is working and what should be in the new plan.
I think they will fail. I think, in part because of that failure, I will become homeless. I hope I am wrong. I believe i am right.
I think that what I do, and for that matter what they do, will not end homelessness.
Still you have told me that I should act, as though I did not believe that. I have promised someone that I would try. This is me trying.
M Fred Friedman, I am not sure what to say to lift you up. But I can say, I am thinking of you at this moment and hoping your suffering will diminish and that the universe will bring you the housing you need.
When one feels or is oppressed a sorts of malignant tumors arise. Palestine has suffered sufficiently to have tumor like to plan this invasion for ten years.
There will be no winners unless we go back to the drawing board and negotiate. Peace is a dream that will never materialize so long as Diplomatic solution is found. I am anti war. Pacifist. Quakers are the one group that opposes all wars. American Friends Society. Not war aid society which we are now.
Every action has a reaction. When we support authoritarian regimes and their autocratic rule, we lose our humanity and open the door to justified retribution. Cause and effect.
If you're like me, you're feeling alienated and disconnected from seemingly everybody. We are being presented with either/ors on both sides, and each side is rationalizing its violence. Worse, we are hearing retelling of history that is corrupted by self-interest, or at best, is without context. I'm pretty fed up with what I am hearing, and I am saddened by the awful suffering. Neither side wants to hear straight talk, admit guilt, or retreat from tribalism.
The Geneva Convention and UN are there because our Grandparents suffered,fought and died for it. Simple, it’s time to make it work as it should along with the ICC. It’s the only civilising force humanity has.
I Fought for the I.D.F. in Gaza. It Made Me Fight for Peace.
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OPINION
GUEST ESSAY
I Fought for the I.D.F. in Gaza. It Made Me Fight for Peace.
Oct. 28, 2023
Two horses wander through the rubble of buildings in Gaza in 2014.
Beit Hanoun, Gaza, after Israeli bombardment on July 26, 2014. Credit...Ali Hassan/Anadolu Agency, via Getty Images
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By Benzion Sanders
Mr. Sanders is the Jerusalem program director of Extend, a group that connects Palestinian and Israeli human rights leaders with American Jewish audiences, and a former staff member of Breaking the Silence, an anti-occupation veterans group.
When my Israeli infantry unit arrived at the first village in Gaza, in July 2014, we cleared houses by sending grenades through windows, blowing doors open and firing bullets into rooms to avoid ambush and booby traps. We were told Palestinian civilians had fled.
I realized this wasn’t true as I stood over the corpse of an elderly Palestinian woman whose face had been mutilated by shrapnel. She had been lying on the sand floor of a shack, in a pool of blood.
That was my experience the last time Israeli troops entered the Gaza Strip in a large-scale way, when my special forces unit, attached to the 993rd Nahal Brigade, was one of the first to go in.
Like the invasion that the Israeli military has said is imminent, that campaign was precipitated by atrocities carried out by Hamas terrorists. On June 12 of that year, Hamas kidnapped and murdered three Israeli teenagers; soon after, Israelis murdered a Palestinian teenager. The horrific exchange escalated into a larger conflict; ultimately some 70 Israelis and 2,250 Palestinians were killed over seven weeks. Then, as now, Israelis were told that we were going in to deal a decisive blow to Hamas.
As Israeli troops made incursions into Gaza on Friday and prepared for possible street-by-street urban combat, complicated by the presence of more than 200 hostages still being held by Hamas, I know firsthand the terror they can expect in an landscape of postapocalyptic bombed-out neighborhoods, where Hamas fighters could be lying in wait. There’s also the constant fear of coming under attack by mortars and missiles, and the possibility of a gunman emerging from the group’s underground network of tunnels.
Those three fateful weeks inside the Gaza Strip transformed me from a deeply religious, Modern Orthodox yeshiva student and West Bank settler into an activist with the movement opposing the Israeli occupation of Palestinian territories, first with the antiwar veterans organization Breaking the Silence and now with Extend, a group that connects Palestinian and Israeli human rights leaders with American Jewish audiences.
All our casualties and the suffering brought on Palestinians in Gaza accomplished nothing since our leaders refused to work on creating a political reality in which more violence would not be inevitable. While I believe in self-defense, fighting in Gaza taught me that if my government doesn’t change its approach from crushing Palestinian hope to committing to Palestinian independence, not only will this war kill an untold number of Israelis and Palestinians in addition to the thousands who already have died, but it also will not decisively end terror. A ground invasion is doomed to failure.
Even today, I remember how the ground shook from the constant explosions as we moved into Gaza at dusk at the start of the ground invasion on July 17. As we marched into the village of Umm al-Nasr, our Merkava tanks plowed through the fields next to us, and the aerial and artillery bombardments created relentless thunder and lightning — what we jokingly called the sound-and-light show.
Our main task over the two weeks I was in the northern Gaza Strip was to clear and secure a perimeter in urban areas to enable combat engineers to identify and demolish tunnels leading into Israel. We never wanted to stay stationary and become easy targets, so we would take up positions in a new house every night. Each house had to be cleared; in one, I found a Kalashnikov rifle with a combat vest and an explosive device. At one point, I listened in terror to graphic reports from our radioman of soldiers from my unit searching for body parts after a missile struck a nearby house they had taken over, injuring and killing some of my comrades.
The battle was unpredictable as we faced an enemy that used the complicated terrain to its advantage. It seemed that the Hamas fighters, like most of the civilians, had fled from our advance. Yet on the fourth day of the ground invasion, as we moved toward the Al-Burrah neighborhood in Beit Hanoun, a city in northeast Gaza, Hamas fighters suddenly came out from a tunnel behind us and killed four soldiers at the border fence.
As we withdrew from Beit Hanoun, we heard the roar of Air Force fighter jets overhead, followed by deafening explosions and towering plumes of debris and smoke rising from Al-Burrah. I later learned that in those moments, the airstrikes killed eight members of the Wahdan family, mostly women and children, whose home soldiers from my unit had occupied for days while the family was there.
At one point, I scribbled some thoughts on a piece of paper. I wrote that some members of my team had been tallying the number of soldiers killed and discussing whether this operation was worth the losses. “I think it could be worth it,” I wrote, “as long as we decisively eliminate the threat.”
That’s the lie they told us, and the lie that’s being repeated today: that we can decisively eliminate the threat of Hamas through a military operation. In the years since, Hamas has only grown stronger, despite our sacrifices and despite the death and destruction we had wrought on Gaza.
These periodic episodes of killing and destruction, which Israeli commentators and politicians cynically call “mowing the lawn,” have been a price Israel was willing to pay to avoid being pushed toward a two-state solution. We chose to “manage” the conflict through a combination of brute force and economic incentives, instead of working to solve it by ending our perpetual occupation of Palestinian territory.
Many of my Palestinian human rights partners who organize nonviolent protests are targeted and harassed by the Israeli military. I believe these policies have the goal of preventing pressure for a Palestinian state and permitting Israeli settlement development and creeping annexation in the West Bank.
For years, many of us on the left in Israel have been warning that we will never have peace and security until we find a political agreement in which Palestinians achieve freedom and independence. It isn’t just human rights activists taking this position: Even Ami Ayalon, the former head of the Israeli security service Shin Bet, has argued for years that Palestinian terror can be defeated only by creating Palestinian hope.
Tragically, many of those who made this argument were also the victims of Hamas’s heinous attack on Oct. 7. They included a fellow member of my unit who also served with me in Breaking the Silence, an anti-occupation veterans group. He was a security guard at a kibbutz attacked by Hamas and fought the terrorists for seven hours until he ran out of ammunition and was murdered.
I left his funeral last week crushed, knowing we had lost such a righteous soul. To me it’s clear. My friend not only fought against Hamas during his final moments to protect his friends and family; he also fought against Hamas during years of activism against the occupation.
My heart is broken but I am more resolved than ever to continue his legacy.
Thank you for your service. You are a hero! You have witnessed more than anyone should have to in a lifetime. It might surprise many on this thread that I believe another war is not in Israel's interest. It will kill more young Israeli soldiers and Israel never will win a propaganda war that Iran/Hamas has been fighting and more than more than 1.9 billion Muslims support.
Mr. Reich is correct, Trump Republicans must not reward Putin’s aggression period!
Trump’s only strength
He plays on your weaknesses!
(The opposite of Bravery is Fealty to a dictator wannabe!) What has happened to THE HOME OF THE BRAVE? The GOP has become a herd of sheep.
It’s indefensibly deplorable that members of their own party were receiving Death Threats because they didn’t vote for Jim Jordan to be Speaker of the House! Then they voted unanimously for MAGA Mike Johnson! Heather Cox Richardson noted that Mike Johnson’s 2018 campaign accepted money from a group of Russian nationals, and he has said he does not support additional funding for Ukraine in its fight against Russian aggression! Not one Republican representative abstained or voted against the new Speaker of the House. I think we should start calling them the Marshmallow Party! Or maybe the Domino Party in a perfect line behind the treasonous cult leader.
To the 76 million who voted for Trump, how does it make you feel when you are aligned with racism, xenophobia, islamophobia, homophobia, misogyny, and bigotry!
It used to make your stomach turn if you had any decency. What changed? Think about all the fallen soldiers that gave their lives to protect our Constitution and our Country. Hundreds of thousands of Americans have died defending us!
Are you also saying now that they were losers and suckers like the FPOTUS?
Think long and hard about whether you would rather live in a free country, where we the people pick our leaders, the present U.S., or a country with an autocratic form of government which is led by a Dictator, or a group of leaders, who hold governmental powers with few to no limitations, typically favoring loyalty over competence in their governments and have a general distrust of intelligentsia. Elites in personalist dictatorships often do not have a professional political career and are unqualified for positions they are given. Sound familiar? And your rights and freedoms that you have now are relinquished.
Your most important right, the right to vote would mean nothing!!!
“America can’t afford to support Israel and Ukraine simultaneously.”
I heard this yesterday from a senior House Republican who wants to send additional billions to Israel but not to Ukraine. It’s a foolish and misleading position. Of course we can afford to send additional aid to Ukraine even if we’re also sending aid to Israel. Trump Republicans must not reward Putin’s aggression."
That's >exactly< what I argued a few days ago concerning the fishy timing of the initial Hamas attack. I still >suspect< coordination by Tehran on behalf of Moscow, because it opens a second front on Ukraine, just as US support for Ukraine is vulnerable. Although Israel is a Tehran objective unto itself, even if Hamas had been planning such a strike for a long time, it's ultimately about supporting Moscow in Ukraine - as a strategic consequence. It's all about the trajectory of the thrust. 9 ball banked into corner pocket after kissing off the 8 ball into the side pocket - if you can visualize the trajectory of a pool shot.
I think all these events happening when they did was just part of the plan of a 2nd coup attempt with all the major players involved !! Dumpster gives/sells info like nuclear information to his "special friend" Putin who gives/sells this info to Iran who gives/sells to Hamas/Hesballah who needs to do a little favor for Putin ! Meanwhile the repugnants fvck up the government and cause chaos and mayhem , refuse to do anything to help its citizens but instead get all the repugnants to lose their ever loving minds and vote to have the worst douche bag women-hating , xenophobic, arrogant , bigoted , misogynistic,racist, religious zealot to be 2nd in line for the presidency and who has already stated that the election of 2020 was stolen and got a bunch of other asshats in congress to get on board his lawsuit !! So that's what's happening in the world today ! Just a little thing called democracy going down the drain !!
Kimberlee - I think you nailed it. I think it's bigger than anyone ever imagined, and as "sensible" people characterize as delusional "conspiracy". But it's real. bombs are real. the coup attempt is real. the proliferation of billionaires, with no allegiance except to their money, is real. the climate destructing in front of our eyes is real. and we fiddle on as the world burns.
It's a tough world you live in, huh? What, your latte was not to your liking this morning.
An interesting comment; I'm trying to figure out to whom you're responding. Nevertheles, I do agree with you in the larger sense.
If you've read my posts, you know that I despise capitalism, colonialism, consumerism, etc. etc. We are comfortably nursing our too hot/cold lattes while the world burns, while children are bombed to pieces. So what should we do?
Tell me; I'm listening.
Register voters, esp younger voters.
Incorrect--
Donald Hodgins <silencenotbad@gmail.com>
8:40 PM (0 minutes ago)
As a young child, I was told and read a short story in which a precocious rabbit had a confrontation with a figure made entirely of tar. The dark figure irritated the rabbit immensely because of his failure to communicate. Outraged by the figure's silent arrogance the rabbit punched the tar baby. His hand became stuck in the blackened goo and the more he tried to get free the "stuckyer" he became. Rage became his own undoing, the tar image ensnared the rabbit until at length he collapsed from complete exhaustion. Then from the thicket, Brer Fox emerged to claim his prize, a rabbit dinner. Ham'as has lured the Israeli military into a death trap, not that dissimilar from the tar baby scenario in the story "Song of the South." The harder the Israeli military fights the more they will become entangled in the web Ham'as has spun for them. Then when Gaza is still smoldering the rest of the Islamic Middle East will move in and inundate what is left of the Israeli nation, and we want to get involved in that. Zippity Doo Dah.
Robert---I would love to hear your argument but sadly I can't understand what you wrote.
Exactly!
Well summarized in one succinct paragraph.
And my tire light went on.
Always something.
Your tire-warning light is probably powered by a battery that doesn’t last as long as you’d like it to.
More likely it is a reflection of a change of season. Heat expands the volume and the volumetric tire pressure. Cooler temperatures causes the volume to compress and probably a little leakage around the rim.
Was it made by Tesla. Figure half life
Thank you.
YES! And, at least at my dealership, costs a small fortune to replace if you hate having to look at that yellow warning light all the time. ARGH!
I seriously don't know if anyone was prescient enough to plan this all out as clearly as this, but the gains in strategic positioning on the Right are clear and horrible.
Israeli victims of the monstrous terror attack (along with foreign visitors among those killed and among the hostages) and Palestinians under massive and brutal retaliatory attack are mere collateral damage to demagogues now planning how to solidify their advantage while their electorates are in shock.
Exactly what I’ve been thinking and also trying not to. Don’t forget Steve Bannon and the repugnants who likely get their orders from him.
WOW. Hamas is now a Trump advocate. What rock have you been hiding under.
I’ve read that because the Czars of Russia wanted an ideologically pure country (everyone a member in good standing of the Orthodox Church), Jews were encouraged to settle in Ukraine and Poland. Result: easy targets for Hitler, who also wanted an ideologically and “racially” pure country. Seems obvious to me that “1 country, 1 people” causes suffering on the grandest scale. This is why, unless Israel wants continual or continuous warfare, it needs to write a constitution with a built-in bill of rights, and establish an equal-opportunity programs for citizens of Israel who are not Jewish. This approach seems to be working in the USA.
Stan, oh? Since when has the bill of rights been working in the USofA other than for the NRA and gun owners?
Stan, - Nothing is working in the USA, my friend!
Boy are you correct!!
Opening another front in the Middle East to better sustain his aggression on Ukraine, though there seems to be no positive element proving it, would suit quite well Putin's playbook. He surprised a lot of people when he almost cried on TV, a week or so ago, about the plea of Gazans. If he fomented with Iran the Hamas 10/7 attack, then it could be rightly said that Benjamin Netanyahu is the blood-thirsty, useful idiot presently fulfilling Putin's dream of ending a free Ukraine. Violence is blind.
Exactly. It's like a global chess game. Russians are champion chess players and the Persians - Tehran - invented the damn game! On the other hand, it's all diplomacy, as well. And as ol' Beau likes to say: "diplomacy is like a poker game in which everyone is cheating."
Stuff like this tend to support your argument: Iran meeting with Hamas in Moscow. https://apnews.com/article/russia-iran-hamas-israel-palestine-9b57f4322f57f3a6ff33e2908cb2a3ef
Thanks! AP's a good source.
I like your analysis of diplomacy. And, from Clausewitz, when it fails, the military option is the only one left.
Good point, Lynn. So, when prior to his 'military operations' into Ukraine began, Putin strongly had suggested negotiations to correct the - for the Russians - intolerable strategic situation on the Russian-European borders, and when NATO and the EU ignored his plea, then, as you say, according to Clausewitz, there was no other way to go than war.
I'm being serious, by the way - not ironic. The Russians, not just Putin, regarded NATO's membership expansion right up to Russia's borders during the 1990s as provocative and a threat to Russia's strategic security. Putin sought a readjustment but NATO stubbornly wanted to hold on to their advantage. They in effect turned down diplomacy.
I agree. I actually foretold the NATO push would result in Putin taking action.
I'm not sure Putin is that good a strategist. If he has pulled this off, he has greatly improved his abilities.
Everyone was quick to judge Russia and justly. For outlawing protests, and killing civilians and much more, Israel did all the same things at much quicker pace, and has called the people of Palestine animals and worse, here we support all the same things we condemned when Russia was doing them.
"Israel did the same thing" Yes, after their babies were beheaded, children were murdered at a music festival and now there is clear and convincing evidence with audio and video that Hamas has its base of operations under Shifa hospital all with tunnels going into the interior of the hospital. Hundreds of gallons of fuel were found, enough to last for Hamas to continue killing for 4 months. In addition, Hamas has been killing Palestinians fleeing to the south as Israel instructed. Food and water entering Gaza has been prevented from entering Gaza by them NOT Israel. The Ahia hospital was not hit by Israel, but a failed rocket launch by HAMAS. How many times does Israel have to prove their innocence. Blaming Israel is an old trope Hitler used to climb to power. Do we need to make the same mistake as Germany before we recognize that this is a propaganda war that China, Russia, Iran are playing and there winning as evidenced by you.
The majority of everything you typed here is propaganda talking points that can be disproven or at a bare minimum not proven. If Biden said it, better double check it are good words to live by
"Food and water entering Gaza has been prevented from entering Gaza by them NOT Israel." Do you mean that the Israeli government did not decide that, even though they said they did, or do you mean that people in Gaza had it coming because of the atrocities perpetrated by Hamas on 10/7? In either case, you, my friend, are the first victim of the propaganda war frenzy you blame others for falling into. Giving oneself license to kill entire populations is a war crime, wherever you look at it from.
Eadie, - We haven't been shown the tunnels yet - not one. What we have been shown is one insurgent's military equipment. So far, that's all.
I think you are not well informed nor traveled. Perhaps you should live in Russia and then in Israel before you make such statements.
You sound entirely elitest with your "not well traveled" statement. Maybe you should take into account not everyone has the money to be well traveled... Before you make such statements.
Have you lived in Russia & Israel?
It's just a chance to hang everything on Russia, I don't think this is Putin's work either, it was allegedly planned for 2 years, and I somewhat believe that. Or Israel let it happen so they could get on with some next level atrocities genocide and land theft, who knows.
Of course the Holocaust was real, so was/is the Nakba
Charles, - Well, when attempted diplomacy failed in Ukraine, what Putin did was to turn to Syria in September 2015 and help the Assad government militarily. He was hoping that this strategic move would distract NATO from their plans in Ukraine or induce NATO to seek a negotiated peace deal re: the European-Russian border. It didn't work, but it did result in a closer friendship between Putin and Assad.
NATO's military involvement in Ukraine, and the West's exaggerated fear and loathing of China, has pushed Russia closer to China. Not a brilliant strategy by NATO! We now have two enemies instead of one. And we have provoked and renewed China's claim to Taiwan.
Then, the U.S.'s sabotage of the oil/gas line under the Baltic Sea last year will most likely have long-term negative consequences for the relationship between the U.S. and EU. The EU will never forget this stark example of U.S. industrial and trade warfare against the EU. Another brilliant strategic move by the U.S. within the NATO alliance!
Robert, - Your use of hashtags mystify me. I'm obviously not as modern - or postmodern - as you and find them hard to decipher. However, I did watch your video clip, about the traditional European practice of blaming of the Jews for everything under the sun. So, I have a comment - an example from my hometown of Oslo, c. 1953.
We had a housekeeper who was profoundly Christian (whereas I had a mother who was an evangelical atheist). One Sunday our housekeep invited me to come to church with her. The church was the Oslo Cathedral, easily the largest church in Oslo. Really, I was there in order to report back to my mother about the latest absurdity that the Lutheran ministers had dreamed up of late. (Our housekeeper didn't know that I had this hidden agenda). Anyway, I found myself taking a keen interest in the sermon of the day: it was all about how 'the Jews had killed Jesus'. Now, I was under the general impression that Jesus - also - was a Jew; and so I couldn't understand why the priest was banging on about 'the Jews' killing a fellow Jew. What was extraordinary about that? Ten years earlier, during the German occupation of Norway, we had seen Norwegians killing Norwegians. In fact, Vidkun Quisling - the Norwegian traitor - had been a part of this domestic bloodletting. So, why this priest's mystifying emphasis on 'the Jews' killing Jesus, I wondered. And why would a priest - a loving Christian, of all men - want to blame 'the Jews' barely ten years after the Norwegian Nazis had, in cohot with their German friends, dispatched practially every Norwegian Jew to German extermination camps? (And only a handful of them returned after the war).
I don't know how our housekeeper explained away the priest's sermon. But yes, I'm well aware of antisemitism - even, sadly, in my country of origin.
Whether he was smart enough the plan it, or just now able to take advantage, that is what he will try to do.
Without a doubt!
When all else fails, look away from the obvious. We blame, blame, blame while the real magicians are treating the world to their slight of hand. Is it Hamas? Hezzbollah, Iran, Iraq, Tehran, Russia...follow the 💰. Never lose sight of our good friends in Saudi Arabia who always have their hands somewhere in the pot, quietly stirring behind the scenes.
Gaza as a second front in Ukraine. Hamas, Iran, and Russia working concert with perfect timing. The ascendancy of The Heritage Foundation’s favorite son Mike Johnson to be Speaker, wrapped in a MAGA flag. The countdown toward the 2024 election. Master chess player Putin with his many puppet strings in play. The timing of it all. This is really beginning to read like a Robert Ludlum bestseller. I only wish it was fiction.
In deference to objections others have stated here, I don't think Putin ordered the move - directly. More likely, it's Tehran lending what assistance it can to an ally, by launching an attack they probably had already planned. It's just the exact timing of the attack that serves Putin's interest. Otherwise, I think Hamas would've launched at whatever time Tehran might have otherwise directed. Tehran's only task was to choose the best time to pull the trigger.
That's why I shocked folks in discussion the other day by saying that if Israel >must< go to war, they should mount a massive strike on Tehran, rather than risk slaughtering naked civilians, who are themselves captive human shields for Hamas. Go after the >real< enemy rather than falling into their trap. Of course, there was all the WWIII blowback on that idea. And just to be clear, I >know< that an attack on Tehran is a bad idea. However, when there are only bad ideas to bear, the least worst is the best alternative.
DZK, - It may be as you say. However, there are rumours that Hamas may have picked this particular time because Israel was preparing to settle another million Jewish settlers in the West Bank. Whether this is true, I don't know. - Putin was, after all, negotiating with Israel about closer ties. It could be that Hamas was trying to undermine those negotiations.
Not outside the realm of possibility, particularly if Tehran is advising them. However, Tehran would have an interest in disrupting those negotiations with their Moscow ally, too, no matter what the rumor mill was saying. Tehran is Israel's enemy, too. The question becomes whether Tehran - based on its own intelligence - told Hamas it's time to launch what they'd already been planning to do, or whether Hamas is acting on their own initiative. Keep in mind, the Hamas weapons came from somewhere and they had to have materiel support and expertise from somebody else to secretly construct the highly engineered honeycomb of tunnels from which they operate. It all comes down to the timing of their attack. Who decided this was the perfect time to launch?
remind me not to go on a road trip with you as the navigator
As a further thought, I think Putin's only direct involvement with the Israel strike may have been limited to saying something to Tehran like: "Hey guys. They're killin' me in Ukraine. Help me out here. Is there something you can do?"
Tehran: "Why sure, Vlad. We'll call Hamas and tell them to throw the big party we already had planned."
Finally, someone who can think. You must have had some education on this. Military?
True - I've served. Otherwise, I've just'a been a'payin' attention!
Robert, excellent question by Malcom Nance. Nance usually hits the nail on the head. I would like anyone on this thread to answer one simple question. What would you propose to do after your friends, family and neighbors were brutally slaughtered as they were on 10/7?. It's easy to condemn the Hamas terrorism, not at all easy to answer my question. Supporters of the two sideism, moral equivalency arguments are mum on this question, but they are Jonny on the spot to condemn Israel's response to the 10/7 attack.
Eadie, - Because there is something called 'over-reaction' and 'disproportionate response'.
After the war - after the Holocauset became known - there were specualtions as to whether some individual Jew might have offended the young Hitler in some way, and whether this incident turned Hitler into a an anti-Semite. In other words, people wondered, did Hitler overreact, and was the Holocaust his disproportionate response? Killing a whole ethnic population.
Is Netanyahu and his cabinet about to do something similar in the Gaz strip? Collective punishment - admittedly on a smaller scale than the Holocause, but still enough to upset the so-called 'international community'. Is this what Hamas was counting on? Is Netanyahu playing into the hands of their opponent?
I'm not convinced Moscow had any role in Hamas' timing. Indeed for a while Putin's relations with Israel had been getting increasingly cordial.
I'm saying it's Tehran - not Moscow. I suspect it was Tehran's plan all along. However, I think Tehran directed the timing of the assault - which they could've directed at any time - to assist their Muscovite ally's interest, just as Moscow's campaign is facing setbacks and Ukraine needs continued support from the US, while Congress was - at the time - in disarray. Even now, the US is passing unlimited support for Israel, while those who hold the US purse strings in Congress are - shall we say - less disposed toward Ukraine. That's why they've decoupled funding for Israel from funding for Ukraine instead of passing support for both in a single aid package. In just the same way, it's splitting congressional support for Ukraine, which serves Moscow. Funding for Ukraine could otherwise pass along with funding for Israel. It's now possible that funding for Ukraine could get voted down. That uncertainty aids Moscow, while Tehran's only objective is to get Israel to commit atrocity - for fun and recruiting. The Palestinians? To Tehran, they're holy martyrs.
As the yrics go - Who's zooming who. (Of course that was before Zoom was created.)
DZK, - But see my comment a bit further up this thread!
What I'm suggesting is that Hamas wanted to undermine any developing closer ties between Russia and Israel.
Tim, - I agree. A common attitude - correlation, if you like - does not demonstrate cause-effect. It may be that Tehran's thinking coincided with Hamas'.
As far as I know Tehran backs both Hezbollah and Hamas financially and militarily, though in the case of the former the support is direct (Hamas are linked to the Muslim Brotherhood, which is Sunni). Its support for Hamas is opportunistic and political since it's opposed to the US and Israel. We should remember though that the last thing Tehran wants at this time is open war with either Israel or the US - it just can't afford it. The same can be said for all the other Arab nations in the region too. US support for Israel is being stretched to the limit by the unprecedented extent of its barbarism, racism and flouting of international law, which could easily cost Biden the presidency. Biden is an effective domestic President, but when it comes to foreign affairs he's completely out of his depth.
On the other hand, Russia was seeking closer ties with Israel. This wouldn't have been welcome news in Tehran or in Hamas' inner circles. It may be that both those leaderships decided to drive a wedge between Russia and Israel.
Also, rumour has it that Israel was planning to settle another million Jewish settlers in the West Bank. Hamas may have decided to give the Israeli government something else to focus on.
So there's apparently nothing that connects Russia directly to the Hamas attack. Right? Hamas launched an attack that they've been planning for a long time. Right? There's still instability in Congress regarding the upcoming budget negotiations that can possibly lead to another government shutdown, and US funding for Ukraine is in jeopardy while Israel funding is likely. Right? And interrupting US funding for Ukraine will serve Moscow's interest. Right? And for some reason, better relations with Israel still serves Moscow's interest. Right? So how would the attack have any impact on Moscow's diplomatic effort with Israel when Moscow is apparently not involved? Now, Moscow could even - disingenuously - offer their help as a peace broker.
DZK, - Yes, and Russia i the UN Security Council presented a plan that included a ceasefire, and this was voted down by the U.S. and UK! So, Russia's standing among the Palestinians and Arab states and Iran will now have improved a good deal.
Indeed. Now Moscow is a peace broker. In case you didn't see my response above:
Check this comment out, toward the end at the 13 min 30 sec mark. Sound familiar?
https://youtu.be/lkyaJPCV0bE?si=UbZFEcqrlR016ixS
DZK, keep your eye on Russia's next move. If Israel ever had any illusion regarding Russia, that ship has sailed.
Check this comment out, toward the end at the 13 min 30 sec mark. Sound familiar?
https://youtu.be/lkyaJPCV0bE?si=UbZFEcqrlR016ixS
Since Moscow isn't >apparently< involved, they could conceivably continue on their diplomatic track with Israel and even cynically offer to help out as a peace broker.
DZK< - Well, Russia is now off-track diplomatically with Israel. And yes, Russia is in a position to offer themselves as peace negotiators. However, given Jordan's prominence on the UN Security Council, it seems more likely that Jordan will be accepted by both sides as a negotiator. The U.S. and UK certainly won't be.
My mind can’t wrap around that but plausible I guess. Needs mutual goals. Maybe causing us trouble is enough, taking us down.
Understandable. Particularly if you're seeing it from a more personally relevant perspective. Let me hasten to add, it's what I >suspect< and not a statement of fact. If you understand it as that, a suspicion, a speculation, you may get exactly what I mean by saying it. Thanks for your effort in the first place, my friend.
I would like our country to understand that our unconditional support of Israel is not helping Israel nor us. Too much of our support has been for internal politics. This weakens us in the Middle East.
I like Blinken a lot, but he disappoints me now.
That I consider what you say is true is reflected in an earlier comment I made in this discussion concerning the religious right. As an Israeli or even as a US citizen of domestic, secular Jewish heritage, you have every right to distrust them. What they support in Israel is in support of their apocalyptic vision of Megiddo - aka Armageddon - which ushers in the final destruction of Israel and the return of their mythical savior. From >my< perspective, it's a "give 'em enough rope to hang 'emselves with" approach. Not the kind of ally >I'd< trust.
I’m an American as I presume you are. ? Support was principled to begin. Now it sounds principled but I think it’s entrenched and politically expedient. It will start to hurt more I think.
Our aid to Ukraine is conditional. Our aid to Israel should be conditional.
What you say about Hamas coordinating with Moscow and Tehran etc is yet to be proven.
I agree with all of that concerning foreign aid. As for the rest, in the previous discussion I mention, I tried to make it clear that I >suspect< a connection, and suspicion does not equate to proof, although another contributor here provided a link he seems to believe supports what I suspect: https://apnews.com/article/russia-iran-hamas-israel-palestine-9b57f4322f57f3a6ff33e2908cb2a3ef
And AP is a pretty reliable source.
The article is about power brokering... talking, not about being responsible indirectly for the attack. I agree AP is pretty reliable. What is not reliable is how people read these stories and then take off.
True enough, but they >are< connected. That's what power brokering >is.< But read it as you see fit.
Ham'as--
Donald Hodgins <silencenotbad@gmail.com>
10:17 AM (0 minutes ago)
What really happened on 10/7 of this year in Israel? Aside from the obvious carnage and the suffering what actually took place in that country? The Yom Kippur War of 1973 had an anniversary on the date in question along with it being a Jewish holiday that was celebrating the Festival of Sukkot. Things were so in line for an attack by Ham'as that a clone of Helen Keller could have seen the impending danger the stars were projecting. What if the intelligent forces inside of Israel knew fully well of a possible attack by Ham'as and did nothing to prevent it? Israel has been plagued by the terrorist efforts of this extremist group for decades. Knowing this, Israel's hands have been tied because of public opinion. The army failed to show up and come to the aid of the Israeli citizens being attacked by ham'as for hours, which is suspect. It is almost as if Netanyahu wanted the attack to continue giving his military the excuse he wanted in order to destroy Ham'as. Public opinion was now on his side. I understand it's a sick thought but that war involves people that aren't us and they don't share our thoughts on what is right and what is wrong. Netanyahu shows no signs of relenting in his attack on Ham'as and the suffering caused to the Palestine people for all intense purposes will continue unabated. Beware of a free man! Netanyahu offered the bait and Ham'as took it. The hook has been set and now the fight is on.
Donald, what you say is only partially true IMO. Jewish values are preached throughout the torah. Not nearly as much in the New testament, which is based on the old one and certainly not by the Muslims who worship the dead more than preserving those that are alive. They believe in Martyrdom. Jews have been persecuted by Christians for centuries, because they would not accept their savior Jesus Christ, a Jew. You'd have to be blind not to see the difference in Jewish values represented by Jews who are in Congress and the values of Christians or Muslims. I refer you to a comparison of values by leading Jewish, Christian, and Muslim Congress persons in the forefront of the current debate that involves keeping our democracy. Jamie Raskin, Adam Schiff, Daniel Goldman, Richard Blumenthal, Bernie Sanders, vs. McConnell, Cheney, tRump, Kevin McCarthy, MTG, Mike Johnson, AOC, Ilan Omar, Rashida Tlaib, Matt Gaetz.
Netanyahu has a lot more in common with Bush-2 than you may think. Both involve hubris. Both Bush 2 and Netanyahu were warned by their Intelligence officers that an attack was imminent. Bush-2 wanted to take advantage of all the political capital he thought his father squandered. He became a war time President being AWOL during 911. He was found in Florida reading "My Pet Goat" to a group of elementary school students. His actions resulted in the Iraq war. Netanyahu was AWOL because he believed Hamas was more bark than bite. He needed a Get-Out-of Jail Free card, and he thought the short lived skirmish would distract the public from his corruption. However, he and his right wing coalition are on their way out of power IMO. Thousands of Israelis have been protesting against him and his right wing coalition for 6 months. That's equal to millions of Americans. If the U.S. Congress had enabled the same devotion to Jewish values, a devotion to equality, honesty, and an adherence to the law, we wouldn't have had tRump as President or Mike Johnson as Speaker of the House.
An interesting take, consistent with other comments I've seen. I'll not argue against it, except to say that when given a choice between whether Netanyahu intended such a slaughter of Israeli citizens - not so innocent, since as I understand it, they chose to settle contested real estate - or being simply a self-serving moron, not really concerned with his people's well-being, I'll choose the latter option >every time.< Face it. Had he been concerned with the well-being of Israeli citizenry, he wouldn't have permitted settlement of contested real estate in the first place, opting for defensive emplacements instead, if anything. No. Netanyahu is a moron and he failed to pay attention to any intelligence warnings he may have received - sort of like the way I compare it to the attack on Pearl Harbor in a response elsewhere, although the Pearl Harbor failure may have had more mitigation. It was early radar, and it >could< have just been a goddam flock of birds!
DZK - I don't think Netanyahu is a moron, at all - except a moral moron. By not annexing the West Bank but instead making into an Occupied Territory, he can expand Israel in terms of land available for Jewish settlement without having to grant the Palestinians there any voting rights. It's rather clever. He MAY choose to do the same with the northern Gaza Strip - occupy but not annex it.
The U.S. has done something similar by establishing numerous 'U. S. Territories' - see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territories_of_the_United_States
So, as I understand it, American Samoa for example, is not annexed by the U.S.; it is just an occupied territory without full representation and voting rights in the U.S. Congress.
Clever if it works. Now what leads you to believe that policy is working? Personally, I see no such evidence - only an increasing number of people who wish to dedicate themselves to Israel's destruction, and of course the Israeli citizens who are out in the street protesting the policy generally, and the war in particular, and who know that what I see is true enough.
DZK, - Well, the occupation of the West Bank by Israel is in the process of working - for Israel. And it has worked well for the U.S. in the Pacific; the U.S. now has a number of forward observation posts and potential military bases to serve the U.S. logistics if they should choose to go to war with China.
Israel's government doesn't care about pro-Palestinian protests, either on the streets or the votes against it in the U.N. General Assembly - as long as they control the military situation - which they do, despite the brief Hamas incursion on 7 October 2023.
DZK--I see your point. In war you have to analyze every and all aspects of your opponent's movements in an attempt to understand his thinking and stay one step of him. Netanyahu might have viewed the possible deaths in the attack as causalities of war and accepted that mind set. Its just a thought that has enough possibility that it should be considered.
As I said, I'll not argue to the contrary. He could be such a moron that he decided to allow such a thing to happen. But that kind of thinking would be more in line with the kind of thinking you'd find in Tehran, for whom the "collateral" casualties would be holy martyrs who go directly to some fever-dream paradise - particularly if it's not >their< citizenry becoming the collateral casualties. Last I heard, that's not something Judaism generally embraces - if we go the religious belief route.
They don't give a s**t about Palestinian casuallties,deaths destruction. Judaism is about survival and then you can rationalize from there.. an eye for an eye morphed into disproportionate response which is a crime against humanity.. but Israel, with our help and approval is exceptional. That is why maybe we at least are beginning to understand blowback, if Israelis do not. This may cost Biden and the country.
DZK--I see your point and I have to agree.
DZK, - [your pseudonym reminds me of the DMZ between the two Vietnams, by the way!]
- Anyway, it seems to me that the war in Ukraine is going nowhere; it's at a stand-still. Both sides are wasting money and lives. The only people making money is the military-industral complex.
So what is the conflict really about? It is about Russia's strategic security concerns. During the Boris Yeltsin era NATO decided to break their promise to Gorbachev and expand NATO by including the previous Warsaw Pact countries. This move - during the 1990s - brought NATO right up to Russia's porch (as Putin put it in one of his speeches). Now, this would concern any Russian leader, not just 'wicked Vlad Putin'. Kennedy was concerned when Russia placed intermediate range missiles in Cuba in 1962, and we all went through the Cuban missile crisis. The problem back then (for the U.S. - not just Kennedy) and the problem now (for Russia) is the insufficient warning time provided to activate the anti-missile system to protect cities like Moscow and Petersburg and strategic targets elsewhere in European Russia.
Putin has pointed this out to NATO time and time again, but NATO has refused to engage. OK, so there are no nuclear NATO missiles on Russia's doorstep at the moment, but the Russians obviously have to look ahead into an unknown strategic future. To understand this, we have to (1) think like global strategists, and (2) have the ability to put ourselves in Russia's shoes - empathise with them - which we can, because the U.S. was here once, in 1962, and Kennedy's 'quarantine' brought us to the brink of nuclear war; that's how serious it was (I was 20 back then).
The war in Ukraine was triggered by NATO's talk of eventually making Ukraine a NATO member. Right on Russia's southern borders. Putin appealed to NATO for strategic talks - for a negotiated agreement. His pleas fell on deaf ears; NATO wasn't interested. So, that's when the 'special military operation' started. NATO is part-responsible. It's substantive negotiations or war, isn't it, when we are talking about two superpowers?
If the stalemate continues, negotiations will be the only solution - the only way to peace for the Ukrainians and peace of mind for the rest of us. And a deal about Ukraine must, in Russia's situation, also include a deal about the asymmetrical and unsustainable strategic situation on Russia's European borders. So, Ukraine is only a part of a strategic dilemma for Russia, that NATO has will need to help solve. In a conventional war, Russia has one clear advantage: relatively short supply lines; the U.S. have long supply lines, and the U.S. is the main weapons systems supplier, by far. And by destroying the Baltic Sea pipelines to Germany, the U.S. long-term standing in Europe is questionable: Biden's decision was an example of very poor judgement. Europe will not forget U.S.'s industrial and trade sabotage in 2023, ever.
So yes, negotiations will happen eventually, and it won't be about Ukraine only - and the occupied lands there. I predict that Putin will eventually propose that he will relinquish all occupied land (except Crimea) if NATO agrees to demilitarise its Eastern European member states and put Swedish membership on permanent hold. Putin may even agree to hand Crimea back to Ukraine; its Black Sea fleet is not safe from enemy missiles, so what's the point of a naval base so close to NATO territory?
Addendum:
Putin Was Never So Upset: USA Parking Missiles At Our Doorstep! Beware Of The Anger Of Patient Man! - YouTube – 13 Feb 2022 –
Russia Insight - Russian President Vladimir Putin: USA is standing with missiles on our doorstep. How would the Americans react if missiles were placed at the border with Canada or Mexico?
100 Seconds to Midnight on the Doomsday Clock: We Need a New Security Architecture! - YouTube – 19 Feb 2022 –
Schiller Institute - Sign up with the Schiller Institute https://bit.ly/join-si - The Schiller Institute will hold an international online conference on Saturday, February 19 to reassert the very sane declaration, “A nuclear war cannot be won and must never be fought," by the five nuclear powers and permanent members of the UN Security Council, which they affirmed in a joint statement on Jan. 3 of this year. The conference will also present a {solution} to the current crisis: the establishment of a new security architecture that guarantees all nations the right to security, and to economic and cultural development. To do that, a dialogue about the causes and the cures of the current crisis is urgent.
Let me begin by stating I've >known< ever since, that the US sacrificed forever any diplomatic moral high-ground position it could ever possibly take, on any unwarrented invasion, by any country in the world, of another country the day GWB hustled the US into invading Iraq with his transparently false assertion of WMD's, that he claimed Saddam would supply to terrorists - who, by the way, >actively< fought campaigns against for his own political reasons - that he delivered in public statements in the way he might tell children a ghost story, complete with the "woo woo" facial gestures involved with telling children a ghost story. Go back and look at a video of one of GWB's speeches about Iraq and WMDs and see for yourself. To me, it was >immediately< obvious he was lying when I saw him deliver those speeches >at that time.< I called him a liar then, and history is calling him a liar now.
Now, from my perspective, nothing in Ukraine came to pass until "The Revolution of Dignity" in 2013: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolution_of_Dignity
I'll simply provide the link rather than take up space regurgitating it.
I've recently come across a report that the CIA is now claiming to have had a hand in those festivities in the "undemocratic overthrow" of Yanukovich. Perhaps. For me, the part about "a return to the 2004 Constitution of Ukraine" raises more questions than answers about how "undemocratic" the overthrow really was. Yanukovich was clearly Moscow aligned, while enough of the country to mount said overthrow feared Russia and was EU aligned. There's the rub I'll get to in a moment.
However, CIA involvement in overthrow of Iran's democracy in the '50s and installing Palavi is well documented: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d'%C3%A9tat
For me, Iran's animus is understandable. It's one of those "miscalculations" I fear and warn of in other discussions - a US miscalculation. That's why I have no doubt the CIA was in some way involved with the Yanukovich ouster. But keep in mind, the CIA typically recruits agents from the population in which they operate, rather than perpetrate anything themselves. Active involvement is a drop-dead final option for them.
You seem to have laid out the perspective of Russia as it faces the US quite well. What if that's not altogether true. NATO consists mostly of EU states fronting on the Russian frontier, because to the EU, Russian nukes on their borders are even scarier to them than Soviet nukes in the Carribean were to the US. It's the EU that has a far greater security concern, with respect to Moscow, than does the US, and the US is an EU ally and member of NATO. So before you assert that the Ukraine conflict is all on US bloody hands, consider that the EU is far more vulnerable to the kind of aggression Moscow has displayed in several other theaters since the fall of the Berlin wall. Notice, there was no US or NATO response to those conflicts, other than - perhaps - to say to Moscow: "you hadn't ought ta'do that."
DZK, - Thank you for your considered reply. First, about Yanukovich. At first, he seemed to be in favour of Ukraine applying for EU membership. He then reneged - maybe persuaded? - to keep the close ties with Moscow; and this change of mind brought the Colour Revolution onto the streets in late 2013 and very early 2014. So, I'm not sure that it's accurate to say that Yanukovich was "Moscow aligned". But since about 2008, Ukraine had become sharply divided between pro-Moscow and pro-Washington voters and politicians. It had to do with ethnic origins, but it also had to do with western Ukraine having most of the heavy industry and traditionally supplying the Soviet Union/Russia with iron and steel, and this formed an important part of Ukraine's national income. Yanukovich, as I understand it, wanted his cake and eat it, too. He he wanted EU membership but also keep Russia as an important trade partner. For some reason, it didn't work for him, not in 2014.
The other thing is that the Colour Revolution started off as a peaceful set of large and ongoing demonstrations. I think that it was in early February 2014 that masked and hooded men dressed in black took over and turned the thing into a violent confrontation between them and the police. People got killed on both sides. And towards the end of February the 'hoods' staged a coup, and some ultra-nationalists became leaders of a new government in Kiev. They turned out to be anti-Russian. Protests then erupted in the Donbass region, staged by Russian-speaking crowds - mostly pro-Russia and/or dependent for their livelihood on good relations with Russia - and some local government buildings were invaded. The West now call them 'the rebels', but they were Ukrainian (or dual) citizens and saw themselves as Ukrainians.
The new Kiev government then sent - not negotiators - but the Army to 'crush' the 'rebels'. That was in early March. The 'rebels' quickly raised a ragtag army of their own, and the civil war started. Putin's first move was to annex Crimea; later, he sent his 'green men' into the Donbass to reorganise and support the armed resistance to the Ukrainian Army. NATO now say that the armed resistance was Moscow-directed; I agree that it certainly became so (with a Russian commander leading them), but I don't think it was so to start with.
I agree that the EU could be seen as more vulnerable to Russian aggression than does the U.S. However, the anti-Russian sentiment is more strongly felt in the former Warsaw Pact countries. Germany under Merkel was keen to forge trade ties with Russia, as evidenced by the building of the underwater pipelines from Russia to Germany - the ones that the U.S. sabotaged earlier this year, allegedly with the help of Norwegian divers. So, all I will say is that Europe was divided about their stance towards Russia - until Putin's 'special military operations' against Ukraine began.
On the whole, I support the idea of buffer states that are recognised by both sides as non-aligned. It makes for strategic stability. I don't hold any strong animus against NATO; I simply think that recruiting members so close to the Russian borders made the strategic situation in Europe unstable. That's my concern.
Point taken.
We already give Israel 10 million dollars a day, that's why they're a wealthy country!
Yet, the Яepuблиkan$ and religious fundamentalist nut-jobs are committed to unconditionally supporting Israel and bugger the cost. It's much like their unconditional support for ol' P01135809 - apparently their "messiah." The Israeli should understand that the US religious fundamentalist nut-jobs are >not< - in fact - their allies. In that twisted fundamentalist reality, they hunger for apocalyptic biblical prophecy coming to pass, which involves the final destruction of Israel and the return of their savior - and they'll do anything and support anybody likely to help that vision come to pass. And remember, those nut-jobs don't believe in separation of church and state.
For my part, although I've been mighty impatient with Israel for a long, long time - although I could say that in equal measure about the US, as well - but the only thing I can say for sure is that I'm against Hamas. I wish Israel the best of luck ferreting out the Hamas cells, but they should keep a close eye on their alleged friends, who - by my last reckoning - seem to welcome those committed to their destruction - i.e. KKK & Nazis - into their community. Why should I even need to belabor the obvious for them ‽
DZK, let me put your mind at rest. Israel has no illusions about the rethuglican party. They know that the white supremacists and Christian fundamentalists that hold sway over the party would throw Israel under the bus the first chance they got. Thousands of Israelis equal to millions of Americans have been demonstrating in the streets for the past 6 months against Netanyahu's Overhaul of the Judiciary, Israel's constitution and his right wing coalition. In addition, I repeat Netanyahu IMO is on his way out the door. He like Bush-2 were AWOL during the 10/7 attack and 911. Both suffer from hubris. Netanyahu thought Hamas's bark was bigger than its bite. He didn't count on a full scale war, and Bush-2 counted on becoming a war time President listing him in the annals of history along with Washington and Lincoln. Netanyahu needed a get out of jail free card for his past corruption. Where I'd like to push back on some of your comments are these. "Israel has been living on occupied land and went too far." That I believe is not accurate. What do you think would happen to the American Indian if they reneged on the so called reservation agreements they were forced to sign? Israel has no trust in the agreements past and present that all of the allied powers have signed. They have reneged on all of them. Wars fought and won by Israel are thrown into the dustbin of history. Just because the UN, that has a majority of countries that are Islamic says it's occupied doesn't mean that it's so. Legally, Israel has every right to occupy the land it is presently on. If the US can't count on any agreements they enter nationally or internationally, democracy goes out the window and yet many rail against Kevin McCarthy on this thread for reneging on his agreement with Biden, but they apply a different standard when it comes to Israel. Then suddenly, "but the poor Palestinians" who rejected every compromise for a two state solution that was proposed to them by four American Presidents. Iran does not want Israel as its neighbor and the Palestinians, the bleeding hearts profess to care about, are considered casualties of war to be sacrificed. In Iran's misbegotten belief, they would be better off if they could just eliminate Israel who festers as a thorn in their side. Israel isn't willing to be sacrificed on Iran's wet dream.
My bad about the settlers. I wasn't denying Israel's right to settle that area. I was just thinking of it as a strategic matter, considering having folks live on that frontier >extremely< risky. Recall, I mention having defensive emplacements there, instead. Sorry if I gave a wrong impression of what I meant.
Good to know DZK is the Einstein here.
It don't take Einstein to figure >that< out! But thanks - I think!
Do you really think we would not be paid back?
Antisemitism is alive and well here.
Paid back by who. I'm not against the Israeli citizens but the government is awful.
Jan, every Israeli gov't? You mean the ones that allowed Arabs to make up 20% of its population or do you mean the ones that allowed the Raam party led by Monsour Abbas , member of the brotherhood to be represented in the Knesset? Perhaps, you mean the thousands of Arab Israelis that graduated from Hebrew University like Monsour Abbas and became doctors, lawyers, educators, and scientists?
I can't get to my original comment but I did wonder about the 20% Arab being allowed in Israel. You do realize the land Israel is on was already populated by Arabs before anyone else got there.
Why does the USA have money for violence and wars but never for free college and universal health care and to solve the homelessness in the USA- the USA’s annual installment of $3billion to Israel with our tax payer money could have solve a lot of our problems here instead of aiding a genocide
Yah, i was wondering if Putin was behind the Hamas attack.
Perfect comparison with the Shooting pool shot with an indirect Tehran effect . Yes by backing off Israel would ultimately support Moscow . Finding a way to push forward with sending Aid...send Moscow a message that Democracy must win!!
Thank you, Robert. I have addressed a comment, not this one, to Señor Robert.
I have deleted that comment to you.
Sorry Robert, I meant to address it to Jan Cloward. My mistake.
I'm beginning to wonder why so Many could not and cannot see Authoritarianism moves in THIS country!
The '4th estate' is failing US.
Please, please be more specific. How is it failing, Laurie? Many, many reporters are being killed in Gaza reporting the events; or prevented from getting inside Gaza to verify the true events. Everything from official spokesmen appear to reflect their own interest and or is 'hearsay'. eg. "We can't be accurate on the number of children killed by bombing". Reporters themselves are NOT failing.
I think Ms. Blair may mean the reporting on the domestic front--the wholly inadequate representations of Biden's impressive accomplishments and the unwarranted focus on Biden's age but not on Trump's where there is only three years difference...and other 'small' matters.
As reporting from Gaza comes from Hamas, who knows what is accurate?
It doesn't actually - it comes from journalists trapped there, and from various neutral agencies like the UN and WHO.
Tim, Neutral? The UN is made up of 195 countries. Fifty-six of them have an Islamic majority. Do you really believe the UN has been neutral in their assessment of Israel?
apparently someone needs to write up the myriad ways the media has failed our country. Oh here is one now https://hbr.org/2017/01/the-u-s-medias-problems-are-much-bigger-than-fake-news-and-filter-bubbles
BS! News, of all kinds, is of the utmost importance to a free society!
https://presswatchers.org/category/primers/
@ Ms. Blair: THIS^^^^^^^!!!!!!
Indeed!
Because they don't know the difference between being represented rather than ruled. When the rules and laws don't reflect the opinions of the people, they are being ruled by a politician or politicians who exercised their right to lie when they campaigned for office. Or the electorate is on autopilot and is allowing unknown groups to determine who makes the rules and laws we must live by. A small number of very loud people can take charge and get what they want. The only way to answer the noise is to make some of you own. But that means you can't hide behind distractions that occupy time but do little to improve your life. A democracy requires the entire electorate to have agency and to be thoughtful.
As a woman, I have been thinking about who exerts the power in our childhood and how we respond to that power. I can't speak for all women, only for myself, and I have no idea how men experience power in their childhoods. My parents dealt with me as a strange creature in their midsts and there was little attempt to alter my behavior or beliefs by family. So, what I am about to say is more observation than experience.
Many women choose to accept the direction that the men in their lives give. The image of a strong woman is often projected against the backdrop of a disfunctional male, whether father or husband. The drunk. The absent. The lazy. The violent. Rarely against a backdrop of a successful fairytale marriage like the one recently portrayed by the Romney's.
Eleanor Roosevelt is not seen as the focus of FDR's private male desire despite the many children she bore. She is seen as a political partner who offers candid advice. Hillary Clinton, who famously intimated she wasn't a Tammy Wynette caricature, actually did stand by her man until he publicly told the truth. But that break was not permanent.Their relationship is as complex as the Roosevelt's. Neither of these men are considered historically as disfunctional but their relationship to women is. The women in their lives are more or less mute on their relationship to their husbands. You almost want to hear one of them say, "Sometimes they make me so mad, I could just scream and at other times they speak so deeply to my heart I can't catch my breath."
Donald Trump is definitely disfunctional with respect to women. Yet, his disfunction and disrespect towards women are accepted by men as normal and expected and he's revered by some women. The patterns of the behavior of these women are to align themselves with strong men and to never publicly question them. They know where their bread is buttered. All failures are forgiven even unto physical, sexual, or mental violence towards themselves and their children. If course, not all women in these types of relationships willingly remain. But women must address this issue in how we raise our children and the qualities we accept in our partners. Men must also accept their responsibility in the way our children are raised.
Part of the problem is religious doctrine that places women in a subordinate role to men. Part of the problem has been the use of our children to solidify power alliances. Is marriage about power? If power is equally shared, then both partners must give way at different times in a two vote system. Is the relationship between men, women, and power the source of our division?
I'd like to hear what you all think, both men and women. Do you stand together as equals or is there a subordinate relationship that always must yield?
Much depends Paula on the generation you're referring to. For thousands of years, we thought we were living under a male dominated society. Might made right. In Greek mythology we learned during the 5th Century BC, Zeus ruled the universe. His wife Hera took 2nd place in the relationship. His male children ruled their sphere of influence. Athens kings were all men in Greek Mythology. Agamemnon ruled Athens. Priam was king of Troy. Hector, son of Priam ruled Sparta. Women were admired for their beauty like Helen of Troy. During the Minoan civilization, Robert Graves said the world was ruled by a matriarchal system. Today's anthropologists believe that matriarchal societies existed in certain areas of the world alongside patriarchal societies in other parts of the world.
"For example, there were four major matriarchal societies that existed in the African nation of Kush, the Sitones, a 1st C Germanic tribe, the Mosuo, a small Chinese tribe, and the Hopi, a native American tribe. " Elizabeth London-American History
"Today, the women's movement has attached itself to the goddess movement, claiming women's autonomy over their bodies. For example, they claim women's bodies have been oppressed and fetishized by religious groups, which has played a role in violence against women." Wikipedia
I am a daughter of Eve. However, I will not be held responsible for her choices. Submission to the male as default is no longer acceptable. The fact that Justice Barrett brought up in the recent Supreme Court case considering removing access to guns from offenders of domestic violence, based on the previous NY case that changed the tests for constitutionality would fail because of the lack of a long history points out that even in the 1960s beating your wife was considered acceptable. This is the boldest statement of what is wrong with the Roberts Court.
Well said! I might add the small group of people are not only loud. They are funded by billionaires that are shielded by Citizen's United.
Too many "representatives' on the take
End Citizens United
There is a common thread running through the world today and that is the resurgence of the threat of fascism. We see a rise of the hard right in Europe in response to the continuing migrant crisis and Putin's invasion of Ukraine signals the rise of a new brand of Slavic fascism where the Russians "purify" eastern Europe from the immoral contagion of liberal European ideas.
Islamic fascism spread from Egypt morphing into ISIS, Al Qaeda, Hezbollah, Hamas, and others. Hamas wants a "final solution" in Israel and is willing to martyr themselves in a baptism of blood preferring to die rather than to live peaceably with infidel Jews. Their sacrifice will be an example to faltering Muslims considering impure relations with Israel and the West in general.
Fascism comes in a variety of flavors and Islamofacism is at the top of the news cycle today. But, it is important that this fascist contagion is wide spread and feeding on the chaos of each other's actions.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamofascism
Fascism is simple; democracy is complex. That’s why simple-minded people prefer fascism.
A more pessimistic take: many see it and it's what they want. They won't say that and probably many don't conceptualize how their support is tantamount to support of authoritarianism. They are just supporting from their gut. Or their pocketbook as they see it. But you're right. Big corporate donors just have a failure of imagination where short term profits are concerned. "It can't happen here" mentality.
We here in the U.S. feel safe; we don't seem to recognize real danger even when it surfaces. Violence is mixed up with the fiction that has prevailed: in movies, videos, TV programs, computer games and (real) killings reported routinely "somewhere else"; blatant dishonesty in our governments both local, state and federal. Wars are happening in other places but not here. ?? With this constant and not so subtle erosion, how safe will we be?
and the good guys (that's us of course) always win
Suzanna Young you have said a mouthful in a simple short sentence
Exactly
Malcolm Nance always hits the nail on the head. I have another question to all who condemn Hamas, but are Jonny on the spot to condemn Israel's response. What would America do if 50,000 of her brothers, sisters, neighbors were murdered in cold blood by a terrorist org. , funded by Iran?
When I saw that MAGAt Mike Johnson was elected Speaker of the House, I saw the hand of tRUMP reaching over his shoulder, pounding the gavel, ruling as to whether an issue or bill would be brought forth for discussion; be it the budget or allowing the government to default & shut down in 3 weeks, or debate gun control, abortion rights, immigration
Susan: tfg's hand has been running the former republican party from the back seat for awhile.. Sadly, he had had help from Russians ,too.. Death threats to anyone opposing him. And even election workers! We need justice! Let's see what the challenge of tfg's legitimacy does in Colorado today! He is disqualified for office. Let's see if our justice system works 💪 Update! ; on Joy Reid tonight she covered the Colorado court challenge of keeping tfg off the ballot. She had Jamie Raskin and Professor Lawrence Tribe on and they nailed it! this is Tuesday, 10/31. Worth watching!
When asked about his worldview, Mike Johnson referenced the Bible. As we all know the Bible is a mish-mash of ideas, poetry, history, and fantastical predictions about the future (Book of Revelations). In other words, it’s a grab-bag onto which anyone can cast their own interpretation. Those predisposed to ideology and the destruction which that always entails (“the 2020 election was stolen”) now rule the US House of Representatives. Seems to me that Jesus really isn’t in charge of history.
Keith, excellent summary of what is going on now with the Republican Party. I am guessing courage is not lurking in the Republican caucuses anywhere in the country. I see it as treason that a candidate like Johnson takes money from a foreign government, particularly one that regularly interferes in our elections. Russia has bought Trump which is not hard since he no longer can distinguish between what is right and wrong, if he ever could, and just wants money and power. His followers are OK with that because if they just do whatever they imagine he says, they don't have to think. I heard a guy commenting on NPR this morning who just loves Trump and said he would write in Trump's name even if he were refused the right to be on the ballot. Yep, he would vote for a criminal who can no longer think clearly because he is just so enamored with Trump, a toddler who has nothing positive to offer anyone. Trump has a lot of negatives from his memory banks, but he needs his "team" to feed him any new lines because he just can't remember what to say. Then there's Johnson, a racist, misogynist, homo/transphobe, xenophobe, Christian nationalist who does his little acting routine of "Southern gentleman" which lets him get away with a lot, even possible treason accepting money from a foreign government. How is it every single House Republican voted for such a despicable person? Maybe they were frustrated, and accepted whoever was shoved in their faces, most didn't even know who he was, but they voted for him anyway. Disgusting!
You asked, “What changed?” When Ronald Reagan said, “The government IS the problem.” Republicans and half the American people bought it, and the “right” have been wrong ever since, slowly decaying the political system.
We can't risk or afford the frightening consequences of another Trump presidency. When it was announced that he won the election in 2016, there was a big reason why the Kremlin cheered. They got their treasonous, highly manipulative puppet that they have always wanted. The only reason felonious Trump wants back into to the Oval Office is to attempt to stay out of prison and get revenge on those who went after him. Four more years of his autocratic insanity would severely weaken NATO, Ukraine, Israel and create more problems throughout the free world.
Now that I've got info on the Hamas defense strategy, I have a better idea of what Israel must deal with. >Disregard everything< I previously said about mounting a massive strike on Tehran. A strike on Tehran would serve no useful purpose because Israel is pinned. I'm now persuaded that Israel has no choice but to invade. Hamas seems to have learned an important lesson from Vietnam - that was a bugger-all for the US forces.
It seems that Hamas has been busy building an extensive spider web network of multi-level tunnels, where critical operations, like HQ, ammo dumps, command posts, barracks, etc. are all built >under< facilities like hospitals, schools, etc. They also tap into the utilities of the facilities they're built under to divert power, water, and anything else they need to operate. This goes far beyond simply holding naked civilians captive as human shields. Even if Israel bombs the facilities, it will have little impact on the fortifications built beneath them. In fact, the facilities above them act as further physical fortification for what lies below, even if blown to rubble. The rubble will perhaps serve even better as fortification from bomb & missile attacks, because rubble will disperse the strength of an explosion even better.
That means the invasion force must locate and crack the underground facilities. At that, the facilities are apparently just wide enough for single-file passage. That's a lesson from Thermopylae, where 300 Greeks stood off against thousands of Persians. Further, they have to be on the lookout for "hidey holes" or "kill chambers" from which they can be ambushed. Add to that, they'll have to find access to and repeat the same operation on multiple levels. I'll wager they'll be forced to do all that using night-vision headgear, as well - just to make it even more difficult.
I doubt any of that will be accomplished very soon. Even if Israel were to court the notion of a Tehran strike, they'll have to ferret out the Hamas defenses prior to such a campaign, in order to secure their rear. Israel will get full US support, while the EU better consider upping their game with Ukraine for the sake of EU security. I'm in no way sanguine about US support for Ukraine. Worse, it appears Turkey is making noise about getting into the Gaza conflict. If they do, they may well be sacrificing accession into the EU - just when it seemed the issue of Kurds in - was it - Sweden seemed to be ironed out. In my view, the state of foreign diplomacy has officially become a friggin' mess! The attack on Israel truly served both Moscow and Tehran, and no, I don't think Putin had any more hand in it than asking help from his ally, Tehran. Israel must >completely< destroy an extensive, multi-level underground fortification. They'll >always< be vulnerable to such strikes if they don't.
To say this is the result of a massive intelligence failure doesn't even begin to describe what has come to pass in Israel.
Hamas has been planning this attack for decades. Their tunnel system alone! There are many news drops that Bibi new it up to 10 days before. What do you think?
I have no doubt about anything on that score, except to say I haven't seen any documented evidence on it. From my perspective, it's hearsay, although what isn't hearsay is that Netanyahu is a convict, and it astonishes me that he wins elections regardless - not unlike, but far more effective than his spiritual disciple, ol' P01135809. I'm inclined to believe it was a bit like the attack on Pearl Harbor back in the '40s. Fleet HQ had reports of an approaching arial formation from its radar outposts sufficiently early to prepare for an attack but blew it off as a probable false alarm - a flock of birds, I believe - and continued on with their Sunday morning routines. The rest is history.
Inhabitants of the Warsaw Ghetto also dug tunnels and hideaways to escape the round-ups of the SS. Irony, anyone?
Ironic as far as it goes. The distinction is deadly serious. In Warsaw, the tunnels were used as a primarily defensive measure, to hide a mostly unarmed civilian population. Gaza flips that on it's head, using tunnels as a primary assault weapon/fortification, while the mostly unarmed civilians - protected in Warsaw - get to bleed all over them instead.
Yes, that’s true. How about the tunnels of the Viet Minh?
Don't get me started! The big difference is that Viet Minh/Viet Kong tunnels were mostly under barely inhabitable jungles - which was most of the country. That's why all the Agent Orange and Napalm. Historically, using those tactics they even managed to throw the Chinese out, although they were uneasy allies against the US. Gaza is mostly a short, narrow, densely populated piece of real-estate. I'm thinkin' the Kong tunnels might have been more effective, relying heavily on natural cover. They were also more ad-hoc. On the other hand, the Hamas tunnels seem to have been heavily engineered. Their main weakness seems to be that you can probably bet some critical target lies beneath some critical civilian architecture. That's where the Kong tunnels would've been more effective. Critical outposts could be anywhere in the jungle. But what do I know? I'm just speculating. I'm just some guy with a notion here. However, I'll just bet that if I'm wrong, I'm not too far wrong.
Thanks for your thoughtful speculations. As you might have gathered, I’m wearied by endless war in Palestine — like just about everyone else.
DZK, I’ve been wondering how all those so called missiles from Iran were sneaked into Hamas territory without anybody, US INCLUDED, Intelligence folks not seeing it happen? Tunnel rats have aggravated every major war/conflict but they could level most all of It with Bunker Buster bombs like was used in Afghanistan. The problem is all those hospitals, doctors, staff & refugees who will not leave the area of North Gaza! They say Hamas is keeping them there as human shields! I believe all the Palestinians & HAMAS think they have checkmated Israel & that they will back down. I would not bet on that if I were them! Israel seems determined to rout the terrorists from the country Whatever the cost! But the US, Europe & the Arab countries keep pushing restraint on them & to minimize collateral damage! Does any other country @ war even give that a passing thought?? Don’t believe so, so why should Israel? Hubby & I r behind Israel & their challenge to kill all the Hamas terrorists! And then go after Hezbollah. How they will get to the Leaders hiding out in Quatar is anybody’s guess but seems like it would have to be some covert operation with Massad & their form of seals or rangers! U know they must have protection & security provided by the Qua tares so it wouldn’t be easy. I do hope they will be able to get rid of Netanyahu bec he’s too much like the tRumpster! They voted the corrupt bastard out of office but he just pushed his way back in saying they had some kind of agreement to work together! He must have more experience fighting the terrorists.
It’s such a mess like most wars are but I hope Israel gets the job done & rids the Middle East of more terrorists. That’s one mean group that can radicalize & recruit more terrorists without much effort so I don’t believe the World will ever be completing rid of them! Terrorists or fascists means the generals will never be without somebody to make war games over.
What people must keep remembering is that the GOP is a fascist, authoritarian party fashioned on Russia. We don't have 2 democratic political parties. They must be voted out, all of them!
...the GOP is a lying, cheating, traitorous herd of sheep .
Given that they invited the corrupt Kremlin friendly, autocrat, Viktor Orban, to speak at their CPAC conference in Dallas last year pretty much says it all.
As to the value of one's vote, in a number of states such as North Carolina, Wisconsin, Texas and others, it already means nothing with regards to Congressional and state legislative elections.
Well surmised, but I don't think war and killing will solve anything except lead the world closer to nuclear annihilation. I would rather see the billions of dollars not wasted wasting lives, towns, infrastructure etc. The unchecked Capitalist system is eating its own citizens' tails. All the dictators (Putin, Trump, Jinping, Khamenei/Rashid, Fattah al-Sisi, John Un, to name a few) have one great fear and that is an educated democratic society. The military solution is being used whenever possible so that the very few (top 5%) will prosper economically. With war, there never is an easy solution to stop it, it's hard to put a flower down the barrel of a Merkava 4 tank or take a Dumb Bomb out of the sky with a rock. Fortunately or unfortunately, there won't be much of an uprising against the military industrial (money) machine unless the US starts the draft up again. But the military has been largely privatized and incentivized to those who often don't have another choice. In the meantime, we should use the greatest motivator of all free societies, a realistic path that empowers members society to work hard to have the opportunity to support themselves and their family without having to kill someone else or another person's family member to achieve that. There has to be the opportunity which is missing in most societies, certainly for the lower socioeconomic classes around the globe. There shouldn't be a scarcity of educating people, but that is how revolution gets suppressed, at least until the suppressed can't take it any longer.
You're right! And this Gay Canadian Metis stands with you on that principle. Plus remember this, and keep it to your heart and thoughts 24/7:
IF THEY COME FOR YOU IN THE MORNING, THEY WILL COME FOR YOU IN THE NIGHT.
Thank you. This Canadian Metis stands with you, and please keep this at heart, 24/7:
IF THEY COME FOR YOU IN THE MORNING, THEY WILL COME FOR YOU IN THE NIGHT.
Mr. Reich’s analysis and this reply are right on! Thank you both for articulating. If only we could get this through the heads (and hearts) of the GOP and their supporters. I for one will be sharing this with people I know who are in that group.
Thank You
BUT if THEY get what THEY want... MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!!!
Let's see about that!
> I think we should start calling them the Marshmallow Party! Or maybe the Domino Party in a perfect line behind the treasonous cult leader.
Maybe the Lemming Party?
Trump is a LOSER. Say it often.
There has been a dearth of clear thinking. Thank you for an intelligent response to this horrific tragedy
I agree with you Liz, “There has been a dearth of clear thinking.” As with so many of the challenges facing us in the United States and challenges we see around the planet many of the most important decisions are based on emotions and narrow minded sentiments. I am among one of the hundreds of thousands influenced by clear thinkers and logic of those clear thinkers such as Heather Cox Richardson and Robert Reich. Our task (I am referring to readers and those influenced by such clear thinking devoid of negative sentiments) is to amplify and spread the clarity we are are privileged to receive from great humanitarian and compassionate thinkers.
Each of us have the capacity to become influencers and activists in our own lives and in our own circles. Many of us who participate in these blogs are of an older generation. that does not mean we cannot also be activists in our own unique manner. Although not always outwardly respected in a “youth minded” culture, we have 60, 70 and 80 years of accumulated experience and sharp minds. We have perspective and we have greater capacity to influence others than we give ourselves credit for. We can organize “Coffee Klatches” and gatherings among our own constituencies in our own communities.
Many of the readers and participants in this forum, started their activism in the anti-war days of the 1960s and early 1970s which morphed into the “Ecology Movement.” Many of us still hold those same youthful ideals 50 years later. Technologically the world has changed but many of the issues have not and the struggle between emotionality (sentiment) and rationality is still the continuing challenge. In this country the struggle between those who believe that the purpose of government is to serve the wealthy and those who believe that government is to serve all the governed has been a part of the national debate from the very framing of the Constitution and has reemerged still very much in the forefront.
It is the ancient Greeks who created the word “apocalypse.” The Greek definition is “To uncover that which was previously hidden and would not be uncovered if not for an apocalypse generally leading to a revelation.”
If you discover that a physical cancer has emerged in your own body, the wise approach is to find all the places where it may be uncovered so the proper treatment can be given for a complete cure. Many cancers on our planetary society are being uncovered at once, so the challenges facing humanity can be properly treated by in a wholistic manner. The hidden disease is now emerging giving us the possibility to apply a lasting “cure.” Part of that cure is not just to read of the inspiring activism of others but to apply it in our own communities whether local or global. “Do all the good you can, by all the means you can, in all the ways you can, in all the places you can, to all the people you can, as long as ever you can,” attributed to John Wesley 1703-1791, is still valid over 200 years later.
Marc Nevas, your concluding quote is wonderful. It says to me love and compassion for yourself and others is your purpose on earth. Everyone in this sense can be a prophet, a sage, a wise elder. I agree with you. We hold more power and influence for good than we realize. It spreads out like a ripple on a pond.
See what they do -- not listen to what they say. During the civil war, the Methodist, i.e. Wesley, church was at war with itself. What it needs is an epiphany and a return of the social gospel.
Daniel Soloman, thanks your history lesson re Wesley. I agree and hope for a widening embrace of the social gospel. That has been the true fight throughout human history, within us and among us. The ego or the truth of our sacred human value being equal to others?
thank you Marc. So well spoken. those were the days i had hope. now not so much.
If you want to be an "influencer" channel Taylor Swift.
By next election 40% of the electorate will be young people who trend 70% Democratic....maybe higher. .
One Facebook friend tells me she has 14 grandchildren who are voting age that registered as Democrats and are would be influencers.
While I applaud her ability to influence young voters, there is no need to “channel Taylor Swift”. Those of us who want a world where all people live together in peace and well-being need only listen respectfully and support our allies in unifying humanity with kindness.
From a marketing aspect...I'm 79 never even heard her music. She registers Democrats better than anybody and that includes Biden, Obama or anyone else.
It’s wonderful to see so many young people who are energized to vote. Now I just hope they do it.
The music of Taylor Swift sounds exactly like the music of Alanis Morrissette from the 1990s. I’m glad that she’s progressive and influences people in the right way. But musically, there’s nothing new here.
I don't know what action you are advocating with the words "channel Taylor Swift".
Forward this video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qRpDw3LZgM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0pdb53L_MpI esp at 2:40
Thanks for clarifying that..fingers crossed Swift will make a positive Biden support when the time is right. Good to see her with friends and Kelce's mom at KC Chiefs games..showing once again that she's someone regular people can identify with. IMHO
A useful link on trolls:
https://hxlibraries.substack.com/p/paid-trolls-and-how-to-spot-them/comments
I could not agree more. If you engage with them, you feed them and give them exactly what they want. These are either hired trolls or lonely people desperate for attention.
This morning’s troll has been deleted so I deleted my post that contain some of his abusive language. However, when another troll shows up, or the same one under a different name, be sure not to feed the troll, and they will go away.
What is clear to me, and has been clear since 1967, is that the other Arab countries, all formerly at perpetual war with Israel, could end this in a minute.
Daniel, the only country that can this is the US, and it going to take a lot longer than a minute.
Saudis can declare that Israel exists. They hold the religious context. End of jihad.
Moslems pray to Mecca 5 times a day. Must make a haj.
I don't think this has anything to do with religion, or that religion should have anything to do with it; this is political and always has been. Political problems call for political solutions, and I believe that's what the Rabin-Arafat talks would have done.
Hamas makes it ALL about religion.
They would love Israel to remove Hamas for them and allow them to continue their normalization of relations with Israel.
Daniel Solomon ; Interesting statement, but how? Would it be 'ended' in a positive way?
1. Save the innocents in Gaza. A peace force. Ask for a cease fire as long as the peace force is necessary.
2. Stop Hamas from restricting movement in Gaza. Accept refugees, if necessary.
3, Recognize the existence of Israel and negotiate a two state resolution.
Why don't they do this? Is it because the Arab countries are dictatorships and fear an uprising by their people if attempted to do this?
Maybe they remember what happened to Egypt's Sadat when he tried to solve the problem of Israel and the Palestinians.
Plus Black September.
Which is why Egypt is refusing entry to its country of those on the Southern border of Gaza as the last thing they want is Hamas militants, who infiltrate the civilian population.
The last thing they want is much of the Gazan population in the Sinai Desert, facilitating and Israeli takeover of the Gaza strip, a second major Nakba.
Daniel Solomon ; I have wondered how Arab states could be angrily protesting against what is happening in Gaza without offering asylum (if possible ).
NO!! Why should other countries be morally obligated to accept Palestinian refugees once again being evicted from their own land by Zionists? Is that even logical? Put the blame where it belongs, not on Arabs.
Well said
JerryM - Your rabid anti-semitism doesn't help this discussion. You should be ashamed.
Agree with all of your comments. But if Israel is such a wealthy success, why do they need our aid. Why are they the #1 recipient of our foreign aid? It seems wrong when so many around the globe are literally starving to death. And is Israel critical to the US politically or is it our greatest liability?
I just read that Israeli soldiers are asking for donations. They claim they don't even have underwear. Must be a scam or a plea for sympathy. I also read that Harlan Crow has donated to Dean Phillips, Dem nominee for Pres in 2024. Robert Reich is right on the button. Clarity is hard to come by with so much noise in the background. But slaughtering innocents is always wrong. That should be clear.
Mr Phillips looks like he out for himself. Just his body language. He does not IMO have positive intentions in mind. Nor does have any experience or understanding of just what it would take to be president at this time. Like giving your 10 yr old the keys to your new car.
Michael, you are right about the inexperience and the lack of anything important to offer anyone by so many in office or running for office. It seems now, and probably for the past few decades, there is a move to put people up for the presidency, Congress, and state legislatures who have no experience, no good ideas, no vision for what could make the world, not just their own lives, better, etc. For example, who could have honestly thought Marjorie Greene has anything to offer anyone. As far as I can tell, she has some rather serious problems with knowing what reality is, yet she was elected twice. That also goes for Boebart, Jordan, Gates, and the crowning fool, Trump. George W. Bush had no clue what it meant to be president either, yet he was reelected or rather actually elected. We are still dealing with the fallout from his insane 8 years in office. RFK, Jr. and this new guy who just announced are proving there are a few Democrats who have lost touch with reality too. While these guys and gals are running despite their serious problems, Joe Biden who actually is making headway with some of the real issues we have to face, is being maligned, ignored by the media, presented as a doddering old fool, etc. Yes indeed, a significant part of this nation is living in the world of unreality and seem to like it that way. That's probably because they have not really suffered the pain that will come when more of the ignorant ones take over and just dismiss our Constitution. It is especially hard when our courts can't/won't even support our Constitution and make things up to support their own personal biases while working to take away people's rights. And those Republican-appointed judges and justices, or a significant number of them are proving every day to be corrupt, unethical, or just plain incompetent. The Federalist Society and Trump worked really hard to undermine our courts and our Constitution. When will We the People stop them? No clue!
It is common knowledge that the "elite" Harvard & ivy schools always had a deep seated bigotry toward ethnic & some religious groups. I think that Netanyahu's policy of Zionist expansion into Palestine territory only gave fuel to this excuse for bigotry. I have supported Israel since its inception, but with the understanding that it was a state for holocost survivors to rebuild their lives, be free to worship in their own religion. I did not expect such intolerance from their Arab neighbors. The USA was the first to recognize Israel as a state, & still supports their alliance. What these elite schools are forgetting is that both Palestine Arabs & Israeli Jews are both "semetic" peoples, & these terrorists groups as Hamas & Hezboola are backed by iran which is Persian, & not Arab.
Robert, how disappointing, calling any human beings "animals" is a way to mark them as beings who can be killed at will the way people kill other animals on this planet. I do not believe, and I have never seen evidence that there is such a thing as "genetic hatred of anything, particularly the "Hebrew language and the speakers thereof." Again that is a way to say one's hatred is from birth rather than generated through social and personal interactions. Alas, Christians were taught to hate Jews because they supposedly killed Jesus, which, of course is not true because it was the Romans according to scripture. It seems leaders all over the world find it expedient to get their underlings to hate whoever the guy in charge wants to do harm to. Over the centuries, for Europeans for the most part, Jews were a convenient target and the leaders large or small could tell the vast illeterate population that the Jews were evil, not really people "animals," who could be used and abused at will. That "hatred" is not genetic in any way, just social and in this case the product of leaders who want power over others. The Harvard students for the most part are not haters of Jewish people, they want the Palestinians to have rights, even their own nation, which is what should have happened from the beginning in 1948. I do not understand your vitriol against the students, maybe it is your own bias against young people who actually care about the condition of the world and want the Palestinians to be valued as people, and who want peace, that is going on in your comment.
Yes, it should, but it's not, not even for Biden. So many scams.
Gloria, This appears to be propaganda. Present documented verified truth of your accusations
Yahoo news had an article this morning that reported Israeli soldiers are asking for donations. I read comments in Joyce Vance's substack that Phillips received a donation from Harlan Crow, so I looked it up. True as reported in the Daily Mail, News Break, The Daily Beast, etc.
We need to distinguish between the IDF (a trained, equipped military force) and conscripts (over 300K ordinary people called into service to fight...leaving work, lives, honeymoons, different countries...to return to fight for Israel).
These conscripts do lack the necessities, as Netanyahu has moved so rapidly into all-out war. A grassroots movement in Israel has scrambled to help the conscripts. They are being asked to fight a well-armed, ruthless enemy with brief training and no supplies.
Netanyahu has shown as little regard for the conscripts as he has for the hostages.
1 out of 5 Israelis live below the poverty line. I contribute to a Christian/Jewish charity and am shocked at how many Israeli Jews (especially elderly) are really struggling just to have enough to eat! Similar situation also exists in Ukraine!
I'm no expert on Israeli social services, but they have a far right government, and such governments are not generally known for their caring social policies.
And in the USA with 38-million people living in poverty. No excuse for it existing anywhere as the means exist to care for all.
Completely agree...thank you for pointing this out.
hw - All Israeli's, male and female, must spend about 2-1/2 years in the army getting fully trained. Conscripts for the invasion of Gaza are well-trained although apparently many are not still in good physical shape and as noted many don't have the weaponry and support they should have for an operation of this size.
I understand, I should have clarified that most of the conscripts have not been recently trained. There's a world of difference between a professional military and conscripts who may have served a decade or more ago.
The original article of Israeli soldiers asking for donations was in "Business Insider" and reported by Yahoo news this morning.
Who is Dean Phillips? That name hasn't been mentioned in the media as a possible democratic challenger in the upcoming political campaigns. The only one who has been discussed is RFK Jr. Obviously, we must watch whose donors are trying to buy influence
I ask this question myself. They have state sponsored universal healthcare yet we don’t. Why is that?
Yes! Great observation.Why is that we pay for their healthcare while we ourselves DON'T get it?
The USA healthcare system is controlled and owned by insurance companies who purchase their reps to make sure that nothing changes. We call it democracy. it's actually an auction.
Thank you
Great question.
Because your anointed Squad members failed to force the vote on medicare for all when they had their opportunity (voting for Pelosi's speakership). INSTEAD, they lied to your faces and got in lock step with the rest of the establishment swamp choosing to line their own pockets and fulfill their own political ambitions. And you'll keep voting for them.
AOC is a fierce supporter of Rashida Tlaib and Ilan Omar. She repeats the same false information they do, with a veneer of bipartisanship. I don't trust her as far as I can throw her.
Priorities!
What is stirring in the wind--
Donald Hodgins <silencenotbad@gmail.com>
6:20 AM (0 minutes ago)
The catastrophe in the Middle East is turning into a hate-filled recruiting tactic put forth by Ham'as. The deaths of all the innocent civilians in Gaza will turn the young minds that have witnessed their family and friends being decimated by Israel's bombing attacks into hate-filled future fighters that will carry on an eternal Jihad against all things coming from Israel. The slaughter carried out by Ham'as on 10/7 has no clear answer for the Israeli military. They are fighting an enemy that will prove almost impossible to find, and in their attempts to do so the lives of thousands of innocents will be lost in the process. The overall ranks of Ham'as will swell as the carnage increases. Israel is dammed if they do and dammed if they don't. As it stands, the Middle East is the steed, the Muslim people represent the saddle and Israel is the eternal bur. The outcome is, the battle of the "Greasy Sand."
Yes, I agree. Creating a country where people were already living and forcing them to give up their land has never been the morally right thing to do anywhere. Modern land ownership isn't tossed aside based on claims of ancient history except through war.
Jews have been living in Israel far longer than the Muslims. At the end of the 19th century there were more Jews than Muslims, because they were fleeing the Russian pogroms and emigrated to the land that is now called Palestine, the biblical home of Jews. Before the 19th century, the land was ruled by the Philistines, the Jews, the Babylonians, the Byzantine Empire, the Romans, the Crusades, the Ottoman Empire, and now the Jews again. Israel won 4 major wars, one that was determinative in 1967, that gave Israel control of the Gaza. Repeating myths that indicate Israel doesn't belong there and forced Palestinians off their land has no basis in fact. The moniker, Palestinian, as it is used today is misleading because Palestine has only existed since 1923 when the land was divided by England, who had a the Palestinian mandate given them by the Allied powers after WWI. Transjordan was created and Israel accepted far less land than originally promised. They were reduced to the size of Connecticut or New Jersey and yet they accepted the deal in the hope for peace. On May 14, Israel was declared a state by all of the world powers. However, their new found home was immediately challenged by the Arabs. They fought and won the 1948 war with a few drawbacks. In May, 1948, the Arab Legion overran East Jerusalem. In 1950, Jordan annexed the areas it had occupied by military force in 1948 which included the West Bank. In 1967, Israel fought one of its major wars again and won. Therefore, the land called the West Bank, the biblical, Samaria and Judea is once again in the hands of Israel. You are forgiven for not having a clear picture of the history. A search of the internet is covered by half truths to blatantly false information on this topic. You have to go to page 10 to get Israel's side of the story.
So much bad history of how Israel Palestine issues started.... I will not reply but point out an article from The Guardian by Michael Segalov, journalist of Jewish faith:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/oct/28/israelis-palestinians-gaza-history-of-trauma
Please read it.
Before I begin addressing the the comments you referenced in the Guardian article, I must IMHO, state the Guardian never misses a chance to promote the view that Israel is responsible for the horrible treatment the Palestinians have and are receiving. IMO, and I can show if you’re willing to accept another worldview that the Arabs that chose to remain in Israel are 100 times better off than their brothers and sisters in Gaza. Arab Israelis represent 20% of the Israeli population of 9.1 million. They are represented by the Raam party in the Knesset. The Raam party is led by a member of the Muslim Brotherhood, Monsour Abbas, no friend of Israel
Now, allow me to take the points the Guardian article references.
POINT 1
“I saw with my own eyes the mistreatment and oppression of its Palestinian population. Walking streets Palestinian residents are forcibly denied access to, I for the first time truly understood its label as an “apartheid state”.”
RESPONSE
It is apparent the Jewish journalist has left out a lot of history. There is no doubt that Palestinians packed into a 25 mile strip of land without the basic freedoms we enjoy are caught up in this conflict. What this reporter witnessed in this conflict happens here in America everyday in states like Mississippi, Arkansas, Tennessee etc. Mike Johnson, the new
speaker of the House represents everything you abhor and I think you would agree.
Point 2
“As we’ve seen in protests across the world these last weeks, an ever-growing portion of the Jewish diaspora feels similarly.”
RESPONSE
This is false. It is what the Squad, J. Street, Elite University professors are trying to project. Ilan Omar has declared a DAY OF RAGE after she heard about the hospital attack. She has been silent, since confirming evidence LAY the blame squarely on Hamsas.
Point 3
“But by 1948, more than 750,000 Palestinians were made refugees,15,000 killed. If the rhetoric of some in Israel today bears out, Gaza may soon see fatalities in these numbers.”
RESPONSE
Michael Segalov comes late to the game if his defense of the Palestinians commences in 1948. He skips over everything that happened between 1890’s - 1948.
The Balfour Declaration was signed in 1914, promising Israel a Jewish homeland by Lord Balfour of England and Lord Rothchild that encompassed biblical Palestine. Why? Because Chaim Weitzman, a renowned scientist and influential in England’s politics convinced them that Israel was being persecuted by mainly Russia, but was also put in Ghettos all over Europe and deserved to live in their biblical homeland. Note that they were persecuted by Christians since they did not accept Jesus Christ as their Savior FOR CENTURIES. In addition, in 1921, Chaim Weitzman invented Acetone, which helped England win WWI. You might believe England had no right to promise anything, but they had a Palestinian Mandate over the land in question and all Allied powers signed an agreement called the League of Nations in 1923, giving Israel a Jewish homeland. However, that was not the end of the story, right before this agreement was signed Churchill needed to get Abdullah’s agreement. Abdullah agreed as long as Transjordan was created. This gave the Arabs 80% of the land and 20% went to Israel.
You won’t read that in the Guardian! Fast forward to 1948 when Israel fought a war for independence and won. England was counting on them losing, since the whole Arab world were their opponents!
point 4
“Those of us not ourselves lost in the fog of war urgently need to understand this more nuanced story. That despite the fact that Britain’s promising of a land to the Jews not theirs to give away stinks of imperialism, early Jewish settlers were far from their imperial soldiers”
RESPONSE
If you believe this statement, then you must also believe that Kevin McCarthy renegging on his agreement with Biden was o.k. Democracy dies that way and we are witnessing this in our country today!
Point 5
“Palestinian people from equal citizenship on the land, their resistance continuing until they’re erased from Israel’s expanded borders, displaced or destroyed entirely. “
RESPONSE
Israel never has expanded its borders. If anything,, Israel’s borders were reduced by 80%. Jordan got what Israel was promised. The West Bank was biblical Samaria and Judea. Jordan won that war and incorporated it into their country in 1950. Israel won it in 1967 war and holds control over it until today.
Fairness is in the eyes of the beholder. The land in question has been held by the Philistines. the Jews, the Babylonians, the Byzantine Empire, the Romans, the Crusades, the Ottoman Empire and now the Jews. Jews are not willing to lay down their arms and allow the world to stomp all over them AGAIN!Blaming the Jews is a trope Hitler used to come to power. Be careful what you ask for!
Thank you, Eadie, for a cogent defense of Israel's existence.
However, you say, "You might believe England had no right to promise anything, but they had a Palestinian Mandate over the land in question and all Allied powers signed an agreement called the League of Nations in 1923, giving Israel a Jewish homeland".
I wouldn't dispute Britain's right to 'lobby' for a Jewish homeland/state in the British Mandate of Palestine. The question was - and still is, to my mind - how big a portion of that land could be given to Jewish settlers, relatively peacefully, considering the existence of Palestians, as well. It was always going to be a difficult balancing act - and I'm sure you agree.
It is in this light - this difficulty - that the assassination, in 1948, of a UN appointed negotiator, namely Count Folke Berndotte, was such an outrage. If you claim to stand for 'law and order', or 'peace and justice', then you don't kill the negotiator.
The people already living there were both Palestinian Arabs and PalestinianJews. King David made Jerusalem the capital of Israel 3,000 years ago.
According to the British Mandate land registries, land ownership was divided roughly in these percentages:
76% was state land, 8% was owned by absentee owners mostly from Egypt or Turkey, 8% was owned by local Arab clans, 8% was owned by Jews and Jewish organizations. So you can't give back what was never owned.
In 1946 over 70% of Palestine was vested in the British Mandatory Power. The greater part of this was the Negev, close to 50% of Mandatory Palestine. This was mostly uninhabited arid or semi-arid territory inherited originally by the Mandatory Government from Turkey. In 1948 it passed to the Government of Israel. These lands had not been owned by Arab farmers, neither under the British Mandate nor under the preceding regime. Arabs chose war against Israel rather than accept the land assigned to them under the the partition.
Also, there are no conflicts over “land ownership” in Israel. The Ottoman Empire’s rule over the Land of Israel ended, and Israel’s independent self-rule began, never changing the status of any private land ownership. Since there is no such nation or state as “Palestine”, there is no conflict or dispute between any sovereign powers over the “land ownership”.
Wendy, I fear we're wasting our breath. Their views are baked in and it appears that facts don't matter. They resort to their own alternative facts that have no basis.
Agree. Truly rough times.
3000 years ago! much have happened over this period. In 1800 BC, (3800 years ago) the Mitannis ruled the whole of Mesopotamia; they intermarried with Egyptians of the 18th Dynasty, and had their princess Nefertiti as the Queen of Egypt. At that time there was no Israel. Later the Mitannis were uprooted by the Assyrians -- they moved to Iran. Should therefore Iran now say that Mesopotamia is theirs!
Please do not use history to justify your rationales.
Many rulers had hegemony over the territory. The Philistines, the Jews, the Babylonians, the Byzantine Empire, the Romans, the crusades, the Ottoman Empire, and now the Jews again. Jockeying for this land has been going on for centuries. It's Israel's turn once again. They won their right to a state as all previous rulers have. As Golda Meir has said, we have no place else to go!
Unfortunately your legalistic definition of land registry records is not how the local people saw it. I don't think Native Americans had land registries, nor the Australian aborogines. Such are the way to justify land grabs.
There was no “land grab” as there was no ownership of land.
What is "ownership?" In common law followed in UK and many countries, if you live in a land for 12 years, you own it. And in humanitarian terms, if you live somewhere and your ancestors lived there -- it is your land.
Your legalistic reasoning for justification of the land grab are fine -- but it is not morally correct. Tell this to the native Americans and the aborigines!
About the Nakba - Question of Palestine - the United Nations https://www.un.org/unispal/about-the-nakba/
Lisa--This struggle goes all the way back to the time of Moses.
I don't see it that way, but I understand that some do.
Rest, assured, they don’t see it that way either or they would be giving back do United States to Native Americans.
Why didn’t they give them a chunk of Germany? What did the Palestinians do to anyone?
Moses entered the land of Canaan with Joshua and they started a war that would never end by slaughtering every living soul they encountered. The inhabitants they killed were all Palestinians. Some people are like Elephants when it comes to forgetting.
EXACTLY! It is the Germans that caused the Holocaust. The guilt complex of the Europeans was assuaged by giving the surviving people of Jewish faith a land already settled for 2000 years by others!
Lisa--How do you see the effects of a life long hatred.
Kill the Palestinians with kindness.
Lisa, you repeat, like a broken record, the same old falsehoods, Christian tropes that brought Hitler to power.
https://open.substack.com/pub/councilestatemedia/p/israel-has-no-limits-to-how-many?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android&r=twspk
Lisa, as I advised before, you're hanging on to headlines and stereotypes that as for click bait. Try another prospective. If you're just posting these articles to gain sympathy from friends that share your biased viewpoint, past away!
Only posting it for you. It's a Substack blog. I know you think you hold the only truth.
The outcome will be unattended. Even if Israel drives out Hamas terrorists, withdraws from Palestine, who will govern the Gaza strip? It will just become another vulnerable area for a terrorist group to take over the governing of the region, just as Afghanistan did post USSR withdrawal & AlQueda made it home there. The USA invaded, & eliminated AlQueda terrorists, withdrew, & now Taliban sharia repressed the nation, which is ripe for another terrorist group to move in. The Gaza strip youth population only knows the friction & destruction between Arab & Jew, so they will be even more vulnerable to a terrorist group running their government in the future & more fighting against Israel
Susan--The Middle East is a conundrum with no answer as long as people live there.
Lisa. 1. Only democracy in the entire region.
2. They displace US from having to send our own military to the region.
3. They are loyal to the US.
I'm not sure it's working to our benefit. It didn't stop us from going into Iraq and Afghanistan. It may have led to 9/11 and other acts of terror. And the current one state/one apartheid prison is immoral.
That's the Hamas position.
No one's wrong all the time
That apartheid isn't working? That the Palestinians are suffering?That supporting Israel has drawn terrorism on the US? Israel needs to promote an equal and contiguous state of Palestine. They need to kill them with kindness. Rebuild the ruined buildings. Flood them with help. But the majority in Israel have chosen Netanyahu and his policy of genocide as a solution.
That makes YOU our enemy. There is NO justification for torturing and killing civilians. 33 of them Americans. 10 more missing.
Daniel, no one on this blog is “our enemy.” We are having a discussion with differing points of view. I might not agree with Liz, but she is not my enemy, she is voicing an opinion different than mine, that is all.
Daniel, I don't think creating Israel was a good idea, but it's too late now. The Palestinians need to have an at least equal contiguous state of their own. Hamas perpetrated horrific evil with their attack, which apparently killed some people most sympathetic to their plight. Israel's predictable reaction of killing so far 8000 Palestinians, 54 UN workers, 29 journalists, also shows a total disregard for human life. Israel has lost a lot of sympathy over the years by its treatment of the Palestinians and the building of settlements on their land. People never like being forced to give up their land, especially without very nice compensation. Forgive me for not elaborating earlier but I fell asleep.
I agree. I didn't intend to suggest I support them.
Works both ways
12 mins ago
This is a letter sent to Edinburgh University. It should have been sent to American universities and many people on this thread.
The ignorance among students in our prestigious universities is breathtaking!!
please circulate to counter the lies , Ignorance and misinformation .This is an incredible letter written by a non-Jewish Scottish professor to his students who voted to boycott Israel.
It's a response from Dr Denis MacEoin, a non-Jewish professor, to the motion put forward by The Edinburgh Student's Association to boycott all things Israeli, in which they claim Israel is under an apartheid regime. Denis is an expert in Middle Eastern affairs and was a senior editor of the Middle East Quarterly. Here's his letter to the students.
TO: The Committee Edinburgh University Student Association.
May I be permitted to say a few words to members of the EUSA? I am an Edinburgh graduate (MA 1975) who studied Persian, Arabic and Islamic History in Buccleuch Place under William Montgomery Watt and Laurence Elwell Sutton, two of Britain's great Middle East experts in their day. I later went on to do a PhD at Cambridge and to teach Arabic and Islamic Studies at Newcastle University . Naturally, I am the author of several books and hundreds of articles in this field.
I say all that to show that I am well informed in Middle Eastern affairs and that, for that reason, I am shocked and disheartened by the EUSA motion and vote.
I am shocked for a simple reason: there is not and has never been a system of apartheid in Israel .
That is not my opinion, that is fact that can be tested against reality by any Edinburgh student, should he or she choose to visit Israel to see for themselves. Let me spell this out, since I have the impression that those members of EUSA who voted for this motion are absolutely clueless in matters concerning Israel, and that they are, in all likelihood, the victims of extremely biased propaganda coming from the anti-Israel lobby.
Being anti-Israel is not in itself objectionable. But I'm not talking about ordinary criticism of Israel.
I'm speaking of a hatred that permits itself no boundaries in the lies and myths it pours out.
Thus, Israel is repeatedly referred to as a "Nazi" state. In what sense is this true, even as a metaphor?
Where are the Israeli concentration camps?
The einzatsgruppen?
The SS?
The Nuremberg Laws?
The Final Solution?
None of these things nor anything remotely resembling them exists in Israel , precisely because the Jews, more than anyone on earth, understand what Nazism stood for.
It is claimed that there has been an Israeli Holocaust in Gaza (or elsewhere).
Where?
When?
No honest historian would treat that claim with anything but the contempt it deserves.
But calling Jews Nazis and saying they have committed a Holocaust is as basic a way to subvert historical fact as anything I can think of.
Likewise apartheid.
For apartheid to exist, there would have to be a situation that closely resembled how things were in South Africa under the apartheid regime. Unfortunately for those who believe this, a weekend in any part of Israel would be enough to show how ridiculous the claim is.
That a body of university students actually fell for this and voted on it is a sad comment on the state of modern education.
The most obvious focus for apartheid would be the country's 20% Arab population.
Under Israeli law, Arab Israelis have exactly the same rights as Jews or anyone else;
Muslims have the same rights as Jews or Christians;
Bahais, severely persecuted in Iran, flourish in Israel, where they have their world center;
Ahmadi Muslims, severely persecuted in Pakistan and elsewhere, are kept safe by Israel;
the holy places of all religions are protected under a specific Israeli law.
Arabs form 20% of the university population (an exact echo of their percentage in the general population).
In Iran, the Bahai's (the largest religious minority) are forbidden to study in any university or to run their own universities: why aren't your members boycotting Iran?
Arabs in Israel can go anywhere they want, unlike blacks in apartheid South Africa.
They use public transport, they eat in restaurants, they go to swimming pools, they use libraries, they go to cinemas alongside Jews - something no blacks were able to do in South Africa.
Israeli hospitals not only treat Jews and Arabs, they also treat Palestinians from Gaza or the West Bank. On the same wards, in the same operating theatres.
In Israel , women have the same rights as men: there is no gender apartheid.
Gay men and women face no restrictions, and Palestinian gays often escape into Israel, knowing they may be killed at home.
It seems bizarre to me that LGBT groups call for a boycott of Israel and say nothing about countries like Iran , where gay men are hanged or stoned to death. That illustrates a mindset that beggars belief.
Intelligent students thinking it's better to be silent about regimes that kill gay people, but good to condemn the only country in the Middle East that rescues and protects gay people.
Is that supposed to be a sick joke?
University is supposed to be about learning to use your brain, to think rationally, to examine evidence, to reach conclusions based on solid evidence, to compare sources, to weigh up one view against one or more others.
If the best Edinburgh can now produce are students who have no idea how to do any of these things, then the future is bleak.
I do not object to well-documented criticism of Israel.
I do object when supposedly intelligent people single the Jewish state out above states that are horrific in their treatment of their populations.
We are going through the biggest upheaval in the Middle East since the 7th and 8th centuries, and it's clear that Arabs and Iranians are rebelling against terrifying regimes that fight back by killing their own citizens.
Israeli citizens, Jews and Arabs alike, do not rebel (though they are free to protest).
Yet Edinburgh students mount no demonstrations and call for no boycotts against Libya, Bahrain, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, and Iran.
They prefer to make false accusations against one of the world's freest countries, the only country in the Middle East that has taken in Darfur refugees, the only country in the Middle East that gives refuge to gay men and women, the only country in the Middle East that protects the Bahai's... Need I go on?
The imbalance is perceptible, and it sheds no credit on anyone who voted for this boycott.
I ask you to show some common sense.
https://truthout.org/video/israel-helped-start-hamas-to-weaken-palestinian-hopes-for-statehood/
For years, Netanyahu propped up Hamas. Now it's blown up ... https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/amp/
The slaughter, starvation and lack of clean water in Gaza is a cataclysm of atrocity being perpetrated by Israel and the US on mostly women and children as we speak. Nothing else matters. The orders to evacuate hospitals. It is horrifying and nauseating. 9000 dead, go ahead dispute the numbers, but in the past they have been proven accurate. No excuse for this lack of humanitarian concern for innocent people who are trapped. Telling people to leave by a certain route and bombing them when they do. I am beyond sickened that my taxes are paying for this.
Agreed Daniel, the US always has a motive for it's actions in the world. The US knew what was happening to the Jews during WWII, yet we did little to help the German Jews flee....we even turned away children. I wish we had helped establish Israel for moral purpose...but if we had....it probably wouldn't have been at the expense of the Palestinians.
1948 was a long time ago. All the "Palestinians" had to do was acknowledge the existence of Israel. Most of the understanding on this page is based on myth. No doubt there were some war crimes. I do not defend the Irgun. Hard to defend the Arab Legion. circa 1947-1950. But since 1967 only Jordan and Egypt have faced up to reality. Both have had their own internal problems. We learned nothing from the murder of 241 Marines by Hezbollah. Although we attacked Iraq, Afghanistan, Israel did not participate...they had their own problems.
Our state department was either conned or owned by Saudi oil since the war. The Dulles brothers dominated our policy, and were whores for big sugar in Guatemala and Cuba.
I think that the fact that Hamas's leadership is actually situated in Qatar, may lead to some optimism. We should be putting the screws to them to get them to negotiate. Americans missing Americans trapped in Gaza.
I published a book, Breaking Up with Cuba...could probably write about US foreign policy generally.
Equally you could say that 1933 was a long time ago, and yet 2024 could be a repeat of that if Trump gets in, or anyone like him (and there are quite a few of those sadly). We should never forget history, or the lessons that it teaches us.
As a matter of fact, some Jews perpetually remained, mainly in the cities. By 1948, 150,000 Jews occupied the old city of Jerusalem. The Ottomans controlled the entire region and by 1867 started to sell to outside interests. But for settlements like de Rothschild estate there was little cultivation
Yes 1948 was a long time ago. But giving German Jews asylum would have been the moral decision. It wasn't strategic, so we didn't do it.
What you miss is that just as many Jews were kicked out of Moslem countries as emigrated from Europe. 650,000 sent to Israel by the Arab Legion, who were fighting "total" war, burning the land and killing everyone. Started before 1948.
Daniel, - Yes, the Palestinians, and the Arabs generally, must recognise Israel's right to exist. But Israel must also recognise the State of Palestine and work towards its establishment and recognition. It goes both ways, doesn't it? I don't hear you say that a two-state solution is the way to go. What do you think?
Yes, it is of course there for imperialist reasons as it always was since the Balfour Declaration of 1917
Daniel, - Unfortunately, being a democracy doesn't guarantee good government. The British Empire was ruled by a democracy, but the colonies were dictatorships - or, if you like, 'enlightened desptisms'. Nothing has changed: the U.S. broke the Geneva agreement, signed by France in 1954, and continued France's colonial war in Indochina; this new war became known as the Vietnam War. The U.S. appointed dictators to run South Vietnam. So, again: democracy at home, tyranny abroad.
False analogies. #1 Israel is not a colonial empire. Tried to give Gaza former settlements in 2007 -- rejected by Hamas. Until 1979 Gax=za was a "colony" of Egypt. The West Bank was part of Jordan until Carter/Sadat deal when PLO would not cooperate - but given to the PA.
Go troll somewhere else Jerry.
Your comment is meant to shock. Not appreciated on such a useful forum.
Just adding to that question as I have it myself. Do they really need our support in this current fight? Or does enlisting our aid commit us to the cause and keep us, still, from publicly condemning certain Israeli actions that, taken in a vacuum or committed by a non-ally, would be completely unacceptable?
I think we are fanatically committed to Israel. You would think with the amount of aid we give them that we would have some influence over their behavior. Biden has 100% encouraged them in this battle. The pro-Israel forces are very strong in the US and have even shown a willingness to censor critical views.
Israel has never and has not now acted without US approval. Backdoor discussions have taken place as they did with Blinken and Biden.
Over 75% of the money given it must be spent in the US on weapons which means the purchase of US technology. The US in return gets billions a year in recommendations for improvements to that technology as Israel uses it. It also guarantees U.S. interests in the region given Israel's proximity to Syria to the northeast, Hezbollah-influenced Lebanon to the north and an Islamist insurgency in Egypt's Sinai to the south.
Weapons 💔
Wrong! Afghanistan 4.9 billion, Israel. 3.9 billion, Jordan-1.9 billion, Egypt-1.71 billion
https://usafacts.org/articles/how-much-military-aid-does-the-us-give-to-israel/#:~:text=Adjusted%20for%20inflation%20in%202022,2020%E2%80%932022%20is%20partially%20completed.&text=Adjusting%20for%20inflation%2C%20US%20aid,aid%20since%20World%20War%20II.
Yes, over a long period of time, Israel has received more aid that is totally justified. If they were not there defending democracy, we would be. China, Russia and Tehran would like nothing better than for a US ally removed from the Middle East.
Lisa, they aren't getting the most aid. Repeating false information serves no one.
Afghanistan-4.9 billion. Israel-3.9 billion, Jordan-1.9 billion, Egypt-1.71 billion. US foreign aid represents less than 1% of our national budget. If Israel wasn't in the Middle East, we would be. Two of our aircraft carriers are there right now!
Lisa, because they are not. Repeating false information serves no one. Afghanistan-4.9 billion, Israel, 3.9 billion, Jordan. 1.9 billion, Egypt 1.7 billion. Foreign aid represents 1% of US budget. It serves us well to have Israel in the Middle East. If they weren't there, we would be. Our two aircraft carriers ae there right now!
Very good question!
I have a theory that I have absolutely no evidence to back up. But it's the only thing I can think of that explains why good people like Biden would refuse to call an end to the genocidal slaughter of Palestinians. I think Israel has proof that we not only knew the 9/11 horror was about to happen, but planned for it, wiring the WTC and Tower 7 (which wasn't even hit by a plane) and pulled the lever that demolished all three buildings killing thousands of innocent Americans, so we could invade Iraq and steal its oil, which we did, and foolishly try to remake the Middle East into a "democratic"region patterned after the US. No Arab pulled the switch that set off the planned demolition while there were still so many people still inside. We did. And my guess is that Israel knows exactly who did that.
Troll or anti-Semite?
Both I believe!
Alden, - One weakness in your hypothetical scenario is that no one in Israel could have anticipated that Bush Junior would blame Iraq; after all, the majority of the Arab terrorists involved in 9/11 were Saudis. If anyone should have been attacked by the U.S., it would be Saudi Arabia. Instead, the U.S. attacked a relatively secular regime that shunned radical Arab outfits. I think Bush Junior was seen by Israel's leadership at that time as out of control - simply hungry for Iraqi oil, and not acting in Israel's - or anyone else's - interest but U.S.'s own. And that's one reason Israel did not participate in the 2003 invasion of Iraq. Sensibly, they stayed out of it.
I don't believe for a minute that Israel had anything to do with 9/11. All the known perpetrators were Arabs - ALL of them. No-one could make that up! I'm not even convinced that Saudi's leadership had anything to do with it. It was an 'out-group' who did it.
If you want another example of the U.S. thirst for control of the world's fossil fuels, go no futher than their sabotage of the Nord Stream gas pipeline under the Baltic Sea in September 2022. This was an act of industrial warfare against their European NATO allies and against the sovereignty of their ally, the European Union. And then, rather pathetically, the Biden regime tries to blame (1) the Russians, and when that doesn't work, they blame (2) a Ukrainian outfit. As if.
I believe the current official version about 9/11 - for once. If the explanation accounts for known facts (as we know them) - that it was an Arab terrorist outfit that did it - then I'm going to apply Occam's Razor and say, "No-one else needs to be brought into the scenario". The field commander, Mohamed Atta, hated the brutalist glass and steel architecture imposed on his home town Cairo by Western developers, and he took a certain delight in demolishing two such brutalist towers in the world's gambling centre: New York.
I'm not suggesting that that was the sole, or central, motive behind the 9/11 attacks - just that it may have been one of several reasons in Atta's mind. I see him as a puritan aesthete.
I can't buy into that. I think the pro-Israel forces are very strong in the US and it's mostly younger people who have begun to seriously question what is going on with the treatment of the Palestinians.
Lisa, I agreed with you over the excess foreign aid the USA was giving Israel. I felt that it was being misused to expand Israel into Palestine territory. I do feel allied military support to Israel, should itIsrael be attacked is warranted, because they still are our greatest ally in the middle east.
I question the benefit of such an ally.
That's because you support Hamas.
This is awful! Anyone with whom you disagree becomes a Hamas supporter. One can be thoroughly disgusted with Hamas -- and at the same time be critical of Israel as a State and its policies of settlements and apartheid policies.
She ADMITTED it.
I don't, Daniel. I support a two state solution and Hamas doesn't. I don't support terror either.
I don't. I support a good life for the Palestinians. I don't support removal of Israel. AI think it's high time Israel and the US invest in a wonderful state for the Palestinians. Too bad so many buildings have been reduced to dust now. Israel needs to accept that a Palestinian life and an Israeli life are equal. I'm pretty sure the far right of both groups do not believe that. Israel should try killing them with kindness.
The problem has always been that Palestinian leadership doesn't know how to say "yes". They've turned down every offer. No doubt the people would prefer a strong "yes".
1947: UN General Assembly partition proposal (UNGAR 181), rejected by the Arab League and the Higher Arab Committee for Palestine/.
1949: Israel's outstretched hand for peace (UNGAR 194), rejected by the Arab League and the Higher Arab committee for Palestine.
1967: Israel's outstretched hand for peace (UNSCR 242), rejected by the Arab League and the PLO.
1978: Begin/Sa’adat peace proposal, rejected (except for Egypt) by the rest of the Arab world, including the PLO.
1994: Rabin/Hussein peace agreement, rejected by the rest of the Arab League (except for Egypt and Jordan).
1995: Rabin's Contour-for-Peace, rejected by the Palestinian Authority.
2000: Barak/Clinton peace offer, rejected by Yasser Arafat, who then initiated the pre-planned second intifada.
2001: Barak’s offer at Taba, rejected by the Palestinian Authority.
2005: Sharon's peace gesture, withdrawal from Gaza, rejected by the Hamas takeover in 2007.
2008: Olmert/Bush peace offer, rejected by Mahmoud Abbas.
2009 to present: Netanyahu's repeated invitations to peace talks, rejected.
2014: Kerry's Contour-for-Peace, rejected by the Palestinian Authority.
2018: Trump’s “deal of the Century”, rejected in advance by Mahmoud Abbas.
2019: US Conference on Economic Benefit for the Palestinians, rejected by the Palestinian Authority.
2020: PA reiterates rejection of Trump’s “Deal of the Century” before it’s even presented.
2020: PA rejects and condemns the agreement between the UAR and Israel for normalization.
Thank you Wendy.
Have all the players negotiated for a mutually agreeable solution?
I repeat this message to you. The Palestinians are being prevented the life you wish for them by Iran/Hamas NOT the Israelis. Recently, it was revealed that the whole base of Hamas operations was found with video under Shifa hospital. Israel was not responsible for the Ahia hospital attack. It was Hamas's failed rocket launch. Food and water have been prevented from entering Gaza by Hamas, not Israel. Palestinians have been shot by Hamas fleeing to the south as Israel advised. Israel is fighting a ptropaganda war that they are winning, because there are 1.9 billion Muslims and 16million Jews. The UN has 195 countries, 56 are Islamic a clear majority.
I actually have read that aid is being limited by Israel.
Israel never acts without US permission as they have most recently. Afghanistan gets 4.9 billion, Israel 3.9 billion, Jordan 1.9 billion
Egypt 1.71 billion.
I agree with all your observations & every point you make.
I really want to stay away from this conflict, an only slightly different, but even more troubling, version of a conflict I've seen repeated over & over during my life.
I am convinced the Hamas attack on Israel was plotted by Russia & Iran to divide the West & deflect Western attention & support from Ukraine in its existential struggle against Russia. It's having its intended results, unfortunately.
No it was 'plotted' by Israel.
Israel has used Hamas twice before.
Netanyahu was about to get voted out.
2 warning from Jordan and Egypt 3 days before yet they did nothing...........hmmmmm.
Both statements are true ; Netanyahu is as harmful (maybe more because he is 'domestic leader) as Russia and Iran ( and tfg who dominates a former, conservative party, that is now radical).
Yes, Laurie, I'm with you. It's both.
You are partially correct. Netanyahu like Bush 2 was warned in advance of the oncoming attack by Hamas. He didn't think it would be a major war. He thought it would be a short skirmish lasting a few days and would provide him with a get out of jail free card. Bush 2 stated he would never make the same mistake his father did. He was determined to use all of the political capital that he believed his father squandered. He was going to be a war time president. The Iraq war followed. Thousands died in an unnecessary war. Cheney brought Halliburton out of debt and became a billionaire. Both Netanyahu and Bush were absent without leave during the attack. Bush was found in Florida reading 'My Pet Goat' to a classroom of children and Netanyahu was no where to be found.
You express my own feelings, although I don't see how any of us will be able "to stay away from this conflict" because it is unleashing - yet again - violent hatreds everywhere.
I agree. The next question is how can we use this realityoppportunity to Russias determent?
Kick the traitors out of government and keep them off the ballot! They are disqualified in our Constitution for not upholding their oaths of office. the first case starts today, 10/30/2023, in Colorado! Michigan and Minnesota next.
You have my vote. We are a nation of laws and rules. Pretty basic that as a politician...it would be a given that you understand the words in your country's constitution, bill of rights, declaration of Independence, and at least know the federal laws. You can't just decide that you want to drive on the wrong side of the road because that's where you want to drive?
James, I wouldn't be surprised, however, Russia and Israel have had cordial relations until 10/7. Russia allowed Israel into Syrian air space the n they were attacked and Israel was the last to state publicly their support for Ukraine because of their mutual understanding.
Divide and conquer is the name of Putin's game.
Absolutely!!!
Precisely. Hit the nail on the head there!
What I fail to understand is why Joe Biden (a pretty clear minded individual, despite Republican attacks on his mental acuity) cannot see how blindly supporting the Israeli government as they murder innocent civilians on their quest for revenge against Hamas is abjectly wrong.
The simple fact remains innocent lives taken in the name of revenge is always wrong. There is no middle ground.
Complete mischaracterization of Biden's remarks: he clearly supports not killing innocent civilians.
The simple fact remains: mass murder of 1400 babies, children, women and men-- innocent civilians is always wrong. There is no middle ground. But when you include atrocities and hostage taking-- gosh, that's wrong too!.
I didn’t say he said it was okay, but he isn’t pushing the Israeli government hard enough on their “scorched earth” tactics. He needs to flatly condemn that.
Withdraw the bilions of dollars the US sends to Israel!
Because it's a drug dealer mentality...
"I just sell it to them. Don't blame me if they use it!"
I honestly do not know the answer but if we had been attacked by a terrorist organization controlling one of our borders, with the equivalent of 45,000 massacred and butchered and 1,000 taken hostages, our response would be what? Hamas uses its citizens as human shields which is itself a war crime that too few are condemning. Israel isn't spotless and I would love to see Netanyahu in jail but look at what Israel is dealing with. Hamas' Charter calls not just for the destruction of Israel but the killing of Jews worldwide. That includes me and my family and to be quite honest, I'm not okay with that. Everyone in that corner of the world deserves peace. I don't have the answers but I do know that if Hamas can be defused, that is a good start. BTW, 60% of the population in Gaza supports Hamas and Fatah's Abbas hasn't held an election for many years as he knows the result would be a Hamas takeover. Seems it has popularity that is not healthy for anyone.
He's trying to keep the US from becoming an adversary....to Netanyahu's crazy extremist party...and keep the US out of it.
And is killing 83000 Palestinians even remotely logical as a response? It's not even proportional. It's the second Naqba. October 7, inexcusable and horrifying as it was, did not happen in a vacuum. It happened after the first Naqba and 17 years of living in an open air concentration camp.
You get your 83,000 number from where? Shaun King?
How many infants should Israel have shot or burned alive in a proportional response? How many women should the IDF have raped, and killed, parading their naked bodies in the streets to be spat on? How many children should have been executed in fromntof their parents? How many parents should have been executed in front of their children? How many people killed killed and butchered? All of these acts deliberate acts of savagery.
What “open air concentration” camp? Using the language of Nazi Germany that wiped out 2/3 of European Jews is an indication of your mindset.
A terrorist group on your border states that it wants to kill you and everyone in your country. You build a fence to protect your people. They break down the fence and then you say, “well you imprisoned them”. We should have allowed them to fulfill their Charter; the destruction of Israel and the killing of all Jews.
Not a prison for those living in upscale Rimal in Gaza with its 5-star hotels and ritzy salons. Google it. Hamas leaders live the good life there, in Qatar, and Beirut using the many international millions donated for its own people and damn the people it is supposed to govern. Hamas’ leader’s life was saved while in an Israeli jail with surgery on a brain tumor before he was released, a mistake which I’m sure they have regretted.
As to the Nakba, there was no plot to expel Palestinian Arabs before the war but many of them were expelled when the fighting started. Many also just fled, told by Arab leaders that they could return after the war was won. Why they were made refugees in perpetuity is another political story.
On the other hand, where are the Jews in Egypt, Iraq, Jordan, Kuwait, Lebanon, Libya. Morocco? Once upon a time the Middle East was full of Jews. Algeria had 140,000Jews. Where are its Jews? Egypt used to have 75,000 Jews. Where are its Jews? Syria had tens of thousands of Jews. Where are its Jews?
Israel’s Arabs, whatever challenges they face enjoy full rights to vote and to be elected to the Knesset’s. They work as doctors and lawyers. They serve on the Supreme Court.
Arab countries expelled their Jews in 1947 and 1948, their property and belongings confiscated. Israel took in all those who wanted to be there and others were repatriated to other countries including the USA. Unlike the Arab nations who created refugees in perpetuity to be used as a political tool against Israel.
To justify the barbarism and savagery that occurred on October 7th is disgusting. And I’m being polite.
Diplomacy and negotiations must occur in the background. Biden is an experienced hand at this. The corporate press is thirsting for sensational headlines to get viewers rather than caring about a resolution.
In fact, the press loves a conflict because it generates ratings. CNN was propelled to fame by the first Gulf war. It has only gotten worse with more media channels vying for ratings.
Yes, it would seem that 'back channel' negotiations are unlikely to be happening at this point in any meaningful way. Biden has sadly failed to act in any decisive way to try to gain control of the situation. He should by now have called for a ceasefire. He has not. He should by now have officially called for the opening of humanitarian corridors. He has not. He should have condemned the indiscriminate bombing of civilians and demanded safe havens for women, children, the elderly and the infirm. He has not. He should have called the bombing of hospitals and forced migration of half the population war crimes, because under international war they are. He did not.
Tim, - Well said!
"Biden should have officially called for the opening of humanitarian corridors." Here are some headlines you might have missed. "White House: Humanitarian Corridor for"
www.npr.org › live-updates › Biden-israel-gaza-Israel-Hamas war updates: Israel and Egypt agree to let aid ...
Oct 18, 2023 · President Biden's visit to Israel
www.npr.org › 2023/10/18 › Biden makes deal on aid delivery to Gaza : NPR
Oct 18, 2023 · In his visit to Israel, President Biden made a deal on limited humanitarian aid delivery to Gaza. Twelve days ago, Hamas killed 1,400 people in Israel. "
"Oct 12, 2023- Biden urges Israeli leader to minimize civilian casualties in ...Oct 11, 2023 · In a private phone call Tuesday, President Joe Biden urged Israel’s prime minister to minimize civilian casualties in the Gaza Strip. The U.S. wants to create a corridor through which innocent"www.nytimes.com › 2023/11/02 › US-Biden Administration to Press Israel for ‘Pauses’ in War With ...
Nov 2, 2023 · The push for what American officials call “humanitarian pauses” is one of several subjects Mr. Blinken will raise with Mr. Netanyahu and other officials when he arrives in Israel on Friday for" ... I would be interested to know what your reaction would be if 50,000 Americans were killed in a Hamas attack? Israel-1400 murdered in cold blood. Population-9.1 million, US population-330 million. Do the math.
... ...
What's even more shocking is how many Palestinian civilians have been killed - 1/260. That's like I.2 million Americans
You choose to ignore that they were killed in response to Hamas's invasion. In addition, there has been video footage by the NYT, Jerusalem Post, and many US news outlets, showing how explosives and tunnels dug under homes and hospitals cause the deaths of thousands of Palestinians. They are used as human shields in every battle Hamas has engaged in. When confronted, Hamas has said Palestinians have to be Martyrs . They respect the dead more than the living! Audio also revealed Hamas planning the invasion on 10/7/23. Thousands of Palestinians have been prevented from moving south as Israel warned at gun point by Hamas. Many are killed in the crossfire. I might also note hundreds of Hamas terrorists were killed by faulty rocket launches that missed their target and fell short, landing on them in the numbers you quoted. Blaming Jews for their own deaths is an old Jewish trope that brought Hitler to power.
I'm not disputing the atrocities perpetrated by Hamas on 7th Oct. However, contrary to what media reported at the time, there was never any evidence that babies were "beheaded" or children were deliberately killed. Those stories emanated from a single unidentified IDF soldier who has refused to go on the record. Of course there is never any justification for killing ANY civilians, but that applies equally on both sides. Israel likes to talk about Gaza as if it were a state when it suits it, though it has certainly never treated it as one. The truth is that you cannot have it bother ways: if Gaza is a state it would have its own defence forces, its own anti-missile systems, its own means of freely trading with other countries, and even having physical access to other countries. But Gaza has none of these things and has been prevented from having them since 1967. Gaza is an enclave, effectively cut off from the entire world, and its people are not even permitted to fish in their own waters. Israel is the by far the strongest military power in the entire Middle East, armed to the teeth with the latest weapons, and is even a nuclear power. David vs Goliath doesn't quite cut it.
IMO (increasingly shared by many people even in the US and Israel itself) Israel has been and is guilty of war crimes and crimes against humanity, and its reaction to Hamas' attack breaches every civilised standard I can think of. You talk of Hamas tunnels under hospitals etc. Even if that were true (I have yet to see the evidence), it does not give the IDF any right to bomb hospitals or ambulances or schools or refugee centres, especially in areas where they have directed civilians to go. You can talk about "faulty rocket launchers" killing hundreds, but even if that unsubstantiated claim were true, it's a drop in the ocean compared to carnage Israeli ordnance has directly caused and you know it.
Palestinians were not prevented from moving south - 1.4 million of them have done so, perhaps the biggest ever displacement of people in history over such a short period. some more records broken - the highest proportion of children killed (nearly 50% and mostly under 7),, the most destruction of civilian infrastructure excluding the nuclear attacks on Japan... And all the while Israel blockades the entire area, not even allowing in sufficient medical aid, food water or fuel. Of course Palestinians want to be martyrs - what other choice do they have?
You assume too much. Blinken and Biden were in Israel working out an agreement that Israel and the US agreed to. Israel waited 3 weeks to invade with their economy about to collapse due to the 300,000 troops that had to be mobilized. Looking for a reason to support the Palestinians that are being controlled by Hamas is very evident.
They didn't have to mobilise the troops - waste of time and money. This conflict will never be solved militarily. If you believe that, you're living in cloud cuckoo land
Tim, you have either bought the kool-aid the the Iran propaganda war has delivered to the world, or you are resistant to what's plainly evident for your eyes and ears to hear.
This is a letter sent to Edinburgh University. It should have been sent to American universities and many people on this thread.
The ignorance among students in our prestigious universities is breathtaking!!
please circulate to counter the lies , Ignorance and misinformation .This is an incredible letter written by a non-Jewish Scottish professor to his students who voted to boycott Israel.
It's a response from Dr Denis MacEoin, a non-Jewish professor, to the motion put forward by The Edinburgh Student's Association to boycott all things Israeli, in which they claim Israel is under an apartheid regime. Denis is an expert in Middle Eastern affairs and was a senior editor of the Middle East Quarterly. Here's his letter to the students.
TO: The Committee Edinburgh University Student Association.
May I be permitted to say a few words to members of the EUSA? I am an Edinburgh graduate (MA 1975) who studied Persian, Arabic and Islamic History in Buccleuch Place under William Montgomery Watt and Laurence Elwell Sutton, two of Britain's great Middle East experts in their day. I later went on to do a PhD at Cambridge and to teach Arabic and Islamic Studies at Newcastle University . Naturally, I am the author of several books and hundreds of articles in this field.
I say all that to show that I am well informed in Middle Eastern affairs and that, for that reason, I am shocked and disheartened by the EUSA motion and vote.
I am shocked for a simple reason: there is not and has never been a system of apartheid in Israel .
That is not my opinion, that is fact that can be tested against reality by any Edinburgh student, should he or she choose to visit Israel to see for themselves. Let me spell this out, since I have the impression that those members of EUSA who voted for this motion are absolutely clueless in matters concerning Israel, and that they are, in all likelihood, the victims of extremely biased propaganda coming from the anti-Israel lobby.
Being anti-Israel is not in itself objectionable. But I'm not talking about ordinary criticism of Israel.
I'm speaking of a hatred that permits itself no boundaries in the lies and myths it pours out.
Thus, Israel is repeatedly referred to as a "Nazi" state. In what sense is this true, even as a metaphor?
Where are the Israeli concentration camps?
The einzatsgruppen?
The SS?
The Nuremberg Laws?
The Final Solution?
None of these things nor anything remotely resembling them exists in Israel , precisely because the Jews, more than anyone on earth, understand what Nazism stood for.
It is claimed that there has been an Israeli Holocaust in Gaza (or elsewhere).
Where?
When?
No honest historian would treat that claim with anything but the contempt it deserves.
But calling Jews Nazis and saying they have committed a Holocaust is as basic a way to subvert historical fact as anything I can think of.
Likewise apartheid.
For apartheid to exist, there would have to be a situation that closely resembled how things were in South Africa under the apartheid regime. Unfortunately for those who believe this, a weekend in any part of Israel would be enough to show how ridiculous the claim is.
That a body of university students actually fell for this and voted on it is a sad comment on the state of modern education.
The most obvious focus for apartheid would be the country's 20% Arab population.
Under Israeli law, Arab Israelis have exactly the same rights as Jews or anyone else;
Muslims have the same rights as Jews or Christians;
Bahais, severely persecuted in Iran, flourish in Israel, where they have their world center;
Ahmadi Muslims, severely persecuted in Pakistan and elsewhere, are kept safe by Israel;
the holy places of all religions are protected under a specific Israeli law.
Arabs form 20% of the university population (an exact echo of their percentage in the general population).
In Iran, the Bahai's (the largest religious minority) are forbidden to study in any university or to run their own universities: why aren't your members boycotting Iran?
Arabs in Israel can go anywhere they want, unlike blacks in apartheid South Africa.
They use public transport, they eat in restaurants, they go to swimming pools, they use libraries, they go to cinemas alongside Jews - something no blacks were able to do in South Africa.
Israeli hospitals not only treat Jews and Arabs, they also treat Palestinians from Gaza or the West Bank. On the same wards, in the same operating theatres.
In Israel , women have the same rights as men: there is no gender apartheid.
Gay men and women face no restrictions, and Palestinian gays often escape into Israel, knowing they may be killed at home.
It seems bizarre to me that LGBT groups call for a boycott of Israel and say nothing about countries like Iran , where gay men are hanged or stoned to death. That illustrates a mindset that beggars belief.
Intelligent students thinking it's better to be silent about regimes that kill gay people, but good to condemn the only country in the Middle East that rescues and protects gay people.
Is that supposed to be a sick joke?
University is supposed to be about learning to use your brain, to think rationally, to examine evidence, to reach conclusions based on solid evidence, to compare sources, to weigh up one view against one or more others.
If the best Edinburgh can now produce are students who have no idea how to do any of these things, then the future is bleak.
I do not object to well-documented criticism of Israel.
I do object when supposedly intelligent people single the Jewish state out above states that are horrific in their treatment of their populations.
We are going through the biggest upheaval in the Middle East since the 7th and 8th centuries, and it's clear that Arabs and Iranians are rebelling against terrifying regimes that fight back by killing their own citizens.
Israeli citizens, Jews and Arabs alike, do not rebel (though they are free to protest).
Yet Edinburgh students mount no demonstrations and call for no boycotts against Libya, Bahrain, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, and Iran.They prefer to make false accusations against one of the world's freest countries, the only country in the Middle East that has taken in Darfur refugees, the only country in the Middle East that gives refuge to gay men and women, the only country in the Middle East that protects the Bahai's... Need I go on?
The imbalance is perceptible, and it sheds no credit on anyone who voted for this boycott.
I ask you to show some common sense.
Israel is an independent country not a providence of the U.S. Biden can influence direction and clearly has taken actions to influence the direction. He cannot order things to be done. The hubris of the Cheney-Bush administration should not be repeated.
We simply do not know what is happening in the diplomatic channels. We have a President who understands how to work the complexities of all the involved parties. A significant issue no doubt is the the current ruling coalition in Israel is not likely to survive this crisis. What emerges represents significant risks in many directions.
Back channel negotiations have failed. Ask the 8,300 Palestinians.
Dead Palestinians.
The US has never and has not now acted without US approval! It's not in their interest to have the US President support them. They are anything but stupid.
100% agreement!! I do believe President Biden warned Israel of a ground assault. He also told them mistakes would be made if they didn't stop and think before attacking out of revenge.
I don't think Biden is blindly supporting Israel but he is following the prevailing sentiment to be pro-Israel. As wrong as I think it is, he is trying to straddle both sides.
Donna, As one of just 14 countries that opposed the UN General Assembly’s overwhelming vote for a humanitarian ceasefire in Gaza, admittedly not binding, the United States, along with Israel, has isolated itself from the world community. I imagine we might not know for some time the consequences of the Biden Administration’s opposition to the pause to allow for greater humanitarian aid.
I further would note, while I’m aware the opposing votes were justified based on the concern that Hamas would prevent the aid from getting to the people, frankly, I don’t accept the premise.
Donna, it is my understanding that the role of a mediator is to "straddle both sides"; at present, Biden is promoting a cease fire to protect innocent Palestinians & allow supplies into Gaza, while also living up to the USA alliance to protect Israel against Arab terrorism. Biden is encouraging a cooler head of patience, negotiations to free Israeli hostages, while applying selected military action to flush out the Hamas terrorists, without further harm to Palestinian civillians
There's a difference between promoting one and demanding one.
Someone....I believe it was Biden.... said a ground war would harm civilians more than Hamas.
Between two stools you fall to the ground. I like Joe Biden, but his leadership is seriously lacking in this conflict, and the tail is wagging the dog.
Be careful about broad characterizations of "JEW".
Biden made clear statements imploring Netanyahu to avoid revenge on the Gazans. He said it more than once or twice. He also warned HAMAS not to steal aid that was meant to help the Gaza civilians. It is not his fault that HAMAs uses civilians as shields and built tunnels under schools, places of worship, hospitals and apartment buildings.
Laurie, I really think there are subtle signals that allies send each other during such times; "Implore" doesn't quite cut it. This crazy stuff has been going on for more than 3 weeks now and is escalating out of control. Biden's the only leader in the world Israel is going to listen to and he's acting like vanilla milquetoast. The world really needs more from him.
I believe it was the NYT that revealed Hamas's base of operations were found under Shifa hospital last week. Hundreds of gallons of fuel and food were found enough to supply Hamas with 4 months worth of fuel. Also revealed by video were the tunnels dug by Hamas under the hospital that led to the interior rooms of the hospital. Is that not enough evidence to convince Hamas and Palestinian supporters that they are an evil organization with the sole intent of destroying any credibility Israel has?
That's very well said, and is the reason why both Joe Biden and the Israeli state have not been winning the public relations battle, whereas Hamas are winning it, whether you agree with their policies or not. A Yougov poll of US voters yesterday showed support for a sharp rise in support for Palestinians versus a corresponding decline in support for Israel. Like it or not, this war is being fought on social media, and Israel losing it.
I believe I have been saying this in more than a dozen of my posts. It is a propaganda war and Israel is losing. There are 1.9 billion Muslims and 16 million Jews. That combined with comments like, it was a mistake for Israel to invade Hamas or the poor Palestinians along with their number dead broadcast, over and over again but never a human cry for the Jewish babies beheaded or the youngsters enjoying a music festival murdered or adults shot in their own homes contribute to helping Hamas win the propaganda war, whether you condemn Hamas or not.
Eadie, - The report of the beheaded babies has never been confirmed. You are making use of an Israeli rumour to support your case.
The same with the alleged tunnels under hospitals. The hospital staff question their existence, and so far I have not seen any evidence of them - confirmed by reliable sources. So far, the tunnels-under-hospitals are no more than a part of Israel's propaganda war. So far, all I have seen on British television is the uniform and belongings of one inserectionist, together a number of AK rifles. This doesn't prove that the place was a Hamas hub or headquarters; far from it.
I don't see Biden so much supporting Israel's military aggression as so much assisting its defense. Biden proposed a cool head & patience, negotiating a truce or peace settlement, rather than Netanyahu's fixation upon revenge & pursuit of Hamas terrorists throughout Palestine itself. I fear that this "invasion" gives his right wing party an excuse in his attempt to annex Palestian territory as a means of protection to Israel. This only serves to drive more young Palestinians into the influence of terrorists groups, mistaking their adherence to Hamas terrorist group for their desire to protect their state's defense against IDF. Israel is attacking the Hamas terrorists & not the state of Palestine. Meantime, the whole population of the Gaza strip is suffering directly from the terrorist action of Hamas, while at the same time world viewing IDF search & destroy, along with Israel's self-defense & returning rocket fire as aggressive action & apartheid against Palestinians. It appears Israel is between a rock & a hard place; should it fake steps in attempt to flush out Hamas by cutting off water, electricity, fuel energy, food , medical supplies, it devistates the innocent citizens of Gaza strip; if they do not take action, the Hamas terrorist confiscate any supplies necessary to continue their attacks upon Israel. I did not see any news regarding immediate humanitarian help coming into Gaza from neighboring Arab nations; but I did hear of military aggression & Hezboola terrorist support against the Israeli/ Palestine West Bank bordering Syria & Lebanon. Drone & rocket fire has even been directed at non-participating observers allies as the USA, enticing returned fire.
I cannot foresee IDF totally stamping out
such Arab terrorists groups, because these groups continously use the innocent civillian population as shields, indoctrinate & recruit youth as pawns in the Arab proxy terrorists quest to destroy Israel's existence.
IDF will have to do a urban warfare, using specialty trained troops to search & destroy the Hamas terrorists network of tunnels built under hospitals, schools, apt bldg residences, ect & to eliminate the cashes of terrorist's weapons, supplies, communication, ect.
Hamas is using their civillian Israeli hostages to pressure Israel to hold off military ground invasion, while Israel is using the withholding of water, food, fuel medical supplies to Gaza to pressure Hamas to release the hostages. Both sides are harming the innocent Palestinians who are trapped between the two forces. Meantime, states as Iran, a theocratic government, who is sponsoring these terrorists is watching, waiting to see how much global support for Israel exists
as the Arab desire to exterminate the Jewish state becomes more inflamed.
Iran's clandestine support of Hamas Oct. 7 massacre into Israel coincided with a possible peace accord between Saudi Arabia & Israel was ironic, because such an agreement would be a threat to Iran's military strength in the middle east.
Susan, you don't really believe that if the UN were allowed to bring in vital food and water they would let those supplies fall into the hands of Hamas. That's just an Israel lie that you choose to believe to excuse what your beloved Israel is actually doing which is the second Naqba. Think more clearly.
This is a letter sent to Edinburgh University. It should have been sent to American universities and many people on this thread.
The ignorance among students in our prestigious universities is breathtaking!!
please circulate to counter the lies , Ignorance and misinformation .This is an incredible letter written by a non-Jewish Scottish professor to his students who voted to boycott Israel.
It's a response from Dr Denis MacEoin, a non-Jewish professor, to the motion put forward by The Edinburgh Student's Association to boycott all things Israeli, in which they claim Israel is under an apartheid regime. Denis is an expert in Middle Eastern affairs and was a senior editor of the Middle East Quarterly. Here's his letter to the students.
TO: The Committee Edinburgh University Student Association.
May I be permitted to say a few words to members of the EUSA? I am an Edinburgh graduate (MA 1975) who studied Persian, Arabic and Islamic History in Buccleuch Place under William Montgomery Watt and Laurence Elwell Sutton, two of Britain's great Middle East experts in their day. I later went on to do a PhD at Cambridge and to teach Arabic and Islamic Studies at Newcastle University . Naturally, I am the author of several books and hundreds of articles in this field.
I say all that to show that I am well informed in Middle Eastern affairs and that, for that reason, I am shocked and disheartened by the EUSA motion and vote.
I am shocked for a simple reason: there is not and has never been a system of apartheid in Israel .
That is not my opinion, that is fact that can be tested against reality by any Edinburgh student, should he or she choose to visit Israel to see for themselves. Let me spell this out, since I have the impression that those members of EUSA who voted for this motion are absolutely clueless in matters concerning Israel, and that they are, in all likelihood, the victims of extremely biased propaganda coming from the anti-Israel lobby.
Being anti-Israel is not in itself objectionable. But I'm not talking about ordinary criticism of Israel.
I'm speaking of a hatred that permits itself no boundaries in the lies and myths it pours out.
Thus, Israel is repeatedly referred to as a "Nazi" state. In what sense is this true, even as a metaphor?
Where are the Israeli concentration camps?
The einzatsgruppen?
The SS?
The Nuremberg Laws?
The Final Solution?
None of these things nor anything remotely resembling them exists in Israel , precisely because the Jews, more than anyone on earth, understand what Nazism stood for.
It is claimed that there has been an Israeli Holocaust in Gaza (or elsewhere).
Where?
When?
No honest historian would treat that claim with anything but the contempt it deserves.
But calling Jews Nazis and saying they have committed a Holocaust is as basic a way to subvert historical fact as anything I can think of.
Likewise apartheid.
For apartheid to exist, there would have to be a situation that closely resembled how things were in South Africa under the apartheid regime. Unfortunately for those who believe this, a weekend in any part of Israel would be enough to show how ridiculous the claim is.
That a body of university students actually fell for this and voted on it is a sad comment on the state of modern education.
The most obvious focus for apartheid would be the country's 20% Arab population.
Under Israeli law, Arab Israelis have exactly the same rights as Jews or anyone else;
Muslims have the same rights as Jews or Christians;
Bahais, severely persecuted in Iran, flourish in Israel, where they have their world center;
Ahmadi Muslims, severely persecuted in Pakistan and elsewhere, are kept safe by Israel;
the holy places of all religions are protected under a specific Israeli law.
Arabs form 20% of the university population (an exact echo of their percentage in the general population).
In Iran, the Bahai's (the largest religious minority) are forbidden to study in any university or to run their own universities: why aren't your members boycotting Iran?
Arabs in Israel can go anywhere they want, unlike blacks in apartheid South Africa.
They use public transport, they eat in restaurants, they go to swimming pools, they use libraries, they go to cinemas alongside Jews - something no blacks were able to do in South Africa.
Israeli hospitals not only treat Jews and Arabs, they also treat Palestinians from Gaza or the West Bank. On the same wards, in the same operating theatres.
In Israel , women have the same rights as men: there is no gender apartheid.
Gay men and women face no restrictions, and Palestinian gays often escape into Israel, knowing they may be killed at home.
It seems bizarre to me that LGBT groups call for a boycott of Israel and say nothing about countries like Iran , where gay men are hanged or stoned to death. That illustrates a mindset that beggars belief.
Intelligent students thinking it's better to be silent about regimes that kill gay people, but good to condemn the only country in the Middle East that rescues and protects gay people.
Is that supposed to be a sick joke?
University is supposed to be about learning to use your brain, to think rationally, to examine evidence, to reach conclusions based on solid evidence, to compare sources, to weigh up one view against one or more others.
If the best Edinburgh can now produce are students who have no idea how to do any of these things, then the future is bleak.
I do not object to well-documented criticism of Israel.
I do object when supposedly intelligent people single the Jewish state out above states that are horrific in their treatment of their populations.
We are going through the biggest upheaval in the Middle East since the 7th and 8th centuries, and it's clear that Arabs and Iranians are rebelling against terrifying regimes that fight back by killing their own citizens.
Israeli citizens, Jews and Arabs alike, do not rebel (though they are free to protest).
Yet Edinburgh students mount no demonstrations and call for no boycotts against Libya, Bahrain, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, and Iran.
They prefer to make false accusations against one of the world's freest countries, the only country in the Middle East that has taken in Darfur refugees, the only country in the Middle East that gives refuge to gay men and women, the only country in the Middle East that protects the Bahai's... Need I go on?
The imbalance is perceptible, and it sheds no credit on anyone who voted for this boycott.
I ask you to show some common sense.
Who's blind? Think again! You are willing to ignore convincing evidence by the NYT that Hamas has been responsible for most of the plight the Palestinians find themselves in. They are fighting a propaganda war and you refuse to admit it. Audio and video evidence showing Hamas base of operations under Shifa hospital. The Ahia hospital was hit by a failed Hamas rocket launch not Israel. Who is preventing food and water into Gaza. NOT ISRAEL. Hamas is doing this. Who is killing Palestinians fleeing to the south as Israel advised? NOT ISRAEL! Once again the answer is Hamas. What will it take for you to remove your blinders. Blaming Jews is an old trope used to bring Hitler to power. We might be next if people choose to believe it has to be Israel who is at fault!
My thoughts exactly !
More anti-Semitism from JerryM, who should be blocked from this discussion.
The suffering of civilians is so incredible, it's worse than 911 where it was limited in time and scope. The intense bombing of Gaza has been going on for weeks and it looks like there are few to NO options for the Palestinans. What really worries me is how many more people will grow up with hate because of their oppression and loss of families. It's so horrific for everyone but especially the Palestinians.
Hamas forcing civilians to be human shields. We are not getting info from "talks" taking place in Qatar.
No, Daniel. Israel is the only party here using force. The borders are sealed and there's no escape, and the IDF / Israeli government don't give a rat's ass who they hit - 'revenge' in their eyes, mass murder in most other people's. There are no meaningful talks taking place anywhere, least of all Qatar.
Have you seen the NYT article? Have seen the video footage and audio that shows Hamas planting explosives under Palestinian homes. Have you seen the Hamas base of operations under Shifa hospital or did you ignore the failed rocket launch by Hamas that hit the hospital parking lot? Or are you trying to provoke a rebuttal? You can't be blind to what is happening or can you?
Eadie, - As I've said before, so far I've seen no confirmed evidence of any 'Hamas base of operations' under Al Shifa hospital. I have seen no evidence of tunnels under the hospital. You are relying on Israeli-engendered rumours in a fierce propaganda war. More and more people are becoming skeptical about what official IDF and Israeli government spokespeople are telling us. As you say yourself, Israel is losing the propaganda war, and there are good reasons for this.
This is why the cycle is so hard to break! These young people who have watched their families and friend being taken. Yes, they grow up with hatred! I would find it difficult to not hate someone who killed someone in my family or one of my friends!! So the cycle continues.
Yep, and we're all complicit
The ONLY moral compass thru this entire mess is simply STOP FIGHTING. There is no reason for humans in 2023 to engage in war.
I won't take sides. The only side I take is with the citizens in each country who are being punished by having their quality of life torn to shreds. We, as modern human beings can no longer afford to live like this. This warring negativity affects all of Humanity...
Yvonne Jackson Well said! War itself IS a crime! We have war in the cradle of religion, we have universities and intelligence to solve so many problems. Why stay in a stone-age mentality? Profit!!?? All the money in the world is useless with what is unfolding now!!! All the fossil fuel on this planet can destroy it, if this persists.
The war questions whether we have any humanity...
If only!
Hamas is a shadow government and will not be deterred through attacks on the people of Gaza.
Like economic sanctions, the pain is only felt by the people in the street if Israel invades.
Yes, like death!
Too bad the UK and US had no moral compass when we destroyed Iran’s fledgling democracy in 1953 so we could steal their oil. Or when we launched a devastating war against Iraq based on a blurry image of a building in a field somewhere (could have been Kansas) that “housed weapons of mass destruction.” We need to clearly acknowledge how we have contributed to the current instability in the Middle East.
To understand the current conflict , we must also know and appreciate history --- only then we will know why so much hatred permeates this region.
The story starts in 1890s with Herzl (Austrian intellectual) arguing that the Jewish people having suffered from recent Russian progroms (and historically in many European countries) must have a State of their own. In order to satisfy the Jewish bankers Rothschild family, Arthur Balfour the Foreign Minister of Great Britain during the First World War in 1917 signed a letter, often called the Balfour Doctrine. He assured the Jewish people that when the war would be over, Britain will take Palestine from the Ottoman Turkey and provide this to them for a Jewish Nation. This was an astute move, as there were many Jewish industrialists in Germany and Balfour also hoped that they would now turn against the German government during the War. This is the basis of Hitler's claiming later that the Jews had "stabbed Germany in the back" during WWI as they considered themselves mainly as Jewish and not German. Balfour did not think the views of the Palestinians [Arabs, Muslims, Catholics, non-Arabs] who were already living in Palestine was important -- this was imperial colonialism at its worst, promising the land of a second party to another third party with no involvement of the second party!
In 1919, during the Versailles Treaty negotiations, as expected Britain took over Palestine and Iraq (they wanted the oil from Mosul), while France was given Syria and Lebanon. The boundary line drawn was named the Sykes-Picot line -- they were the British and French negotiators of this border. No consultations, no Referendums with the local resident Palestinians.
In 1945 onwards, the Jewish population of Russia, Poland, Germany and East Europe who had survived the Nazis, started to move to Palestine. The Europeans and Americans had a collective guilt complex about the Holocaust. So, they did nothing about the local Palestinians. There was civil war between the incoming Europeans settlers and the local Palestinians. "Irgun" and other terrorist Jewish organisations were funded by the American Jewish Charities -- they set fire to Palestinian homes, and killed enough people -- so that the Palestinians moved out of their homes. This forced movement from their homes is called the NAKBA. Other Palestinians simply sold their homes to the Jewish immigrants at very low prices and also moved.
This was 1947-48.
When Britain withdrew from Palestine, the Jewish people called the new state Israel and the resulting small war led to more Palestinians moving out . GAZA settlement dates from 1948.
"Those of us not ourselves lost in the fog of war urgently need to understand this more nuanced story. That despite the fact that Britain’s promising of a land to the Jews that was not theirs to give away stinks of imperialism, early Jewish settlers were far from their imperial soldiers, but a persecuted population failed by global governments pre and post Holocaust. That while Israel’s early paramilitaries didn’t march to the beat of Europe’s imperial drum, to the Palestinians who by 1948 were expelled from their land, what difference?"
Wow! " Balfour did not think the views of the Palestinians [Arabs, Muslims, Catholics, non-Arabs] who were already living in Palestine was important -- this was imperial colonialism at its worst, promising the land of a second party to another third party with no involvement of the second party!" No, Lokhi, Chaim Weitzman invented acetone, something England found indispensable. Without Acetone, England would not have won WWI. After WWI, the spoils of war were divided between the allied powers. England got a mandate over Palestine. In 1922, Churchill enlisted the support of Abdullah to create a Jewish homeland. Abdullah, representing the Arabs would only agree if Transjordan was created. Jordan received 80% of the land and Israel got 20% of the land promised by the Balfour declaration. It was reduced to the size of Connecticut or New Jersey. Jordan walked away with the lion's share of the territory extending its land all the way to Syria. JNF bought thousands of acres of land sold to them by Arab Sheiks NOT because they were forced to but because they believed it was mostly a swamp. I paraphrase. Marl Twain said it was barren, you didn't see a human for 30 miles. He said it won the prize for being the ugliest place on earth. Loki, I believe your comments are misleading , IMHO.
Eadie, - Here you are repeating an irrelevancy: "No, Lokhi, Chaim Weitzman invented acetone, something England found indispensable. Without Acetone, England would not have won WWI". - I've never heard of acetone, and if it played any role in the Allies' victory, it's never ever mentioned. Did it play any role in the Soviet victory on the Eastern Front? I doubt it.
Again you re-circulate the Balfour Declaration of 1917, as if it were holy scriptures. As I've pointed out to you, Balfour admits in a piece of private writing that he will not seek the opinions of the Arabs in Palestine because their case could not possibly be as strong as the case put forward by the Zionists in England - who lobbid both Balfour and Lloyd George. So, Balfour was biased and his declaration was based on his bias. Why do you ignore this relevant information?
May I remind you, also, that in 1917 the demographics of Palestine was c. 90% Arabs/Palestinian settlers and c. 10% Jewish settlers. The Palestinian settlers had settled there many generation ago, so we can argue that they had native title to their land. By choosing to ignore them, Balfour was ignoring 90% of the population of Palestine. Do you claim that this was fair and wise?
Talk about being on the defensive. You are sending me messages at 12:31 am trying to defend your point of view. You doubt that Weizmann was a significant contributor to England winning the war. Again, your ignorance is only exceeded by your hubris.
The Balfour Declaration was a statement and a promise that Arthur Balfour and Lord Rothchild firmly believed. Jews living in Europe, they believed was an untenable situation for them, and therefore, they wanted Jews to return to their biblical homeland, or do you also challenge that assertion? It was a promise in 1917, not an agreement.
Arthur Balfour invented acetone. Historians, chemists, news outlets at the time agreed that it was a significant contribution to England winning WWI. The fact that you doubt it holds no water with me, nor any credible, recognized organization commenting on the issue.
“The Balfour Declaration (1917), the first formal international recognition of Zionism, was, to some extent, a culmination of Weizmann's scientific and political efforts. His fermentation process, which contributed to the Allies' victory in World War I, was not a direct cause of the declaration but was certainly an indirect one.” As I said, the direct cause was giving Jews a place to flee to from the proms and ghettos.
Read more: http://www.chemistryexplained.com/Va-Z/Weizmann-Chaim.html#ixzz8JFmWrmCz
“As history has shown, the discovery had implications beyond science. When asked by UK Foreign Secretary Arthur Balfour what he wished to receive in return for his contribution to the war effort, Dr. Weizmann boldly replied, “There is only one thing I want: a national home for my people.” Duly impressed, Lord Balfour issued the famous Balfour Declaration of 1917 committing the British government to the establishment of a national home for the Jewish people in what was then Ottoman ruled Palestine.”
“The importance of Weizmann's work to the ongoing war effort encouraged Foreign Secretary Arthur Balfour to issue the Balfour Declaration of 1917 in support of Weizmann's Zionist objectives as Weizmann ascended to the presidency of the British Zionist Federation.[3]”
https://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Chaim_Weizmann
Your comment regarding Israel’s population at the time of the Balfour Declaration was a well known fact. It doesn’t in anyway diminish the argument I’ve made under the league of Nations or the creation of Israel in 1948 and certainly not in a review of the historical evidence for centuries. If you took your head out of the news outlets and intellectuals you appear to value and actually studied opposing views by Britanica, Encyclopedia, Chemistry Explained, Curiosity and the Times of Israel, you might learn something. I repeat ad nauseam, rulers of Palestine: Philistines, Jews, Babylonians, Romans, Byzantine Empire, Crusades, Ottoman Empire, England & France after WWI. Allied Powers after WW !!. The Jews control the area now.
The story starts in 1890s...that already shows how lacking your understanding of the situation is...
I purposely started at the modern geopolitics --- and not the claim of "ancient ancestral land of the Jewish people."
I am Indian, Hindu -- not Jewish, not Muslim. There are mountains called Hindu-Kush which were the borders of the Hindu-Shahi monarchs of Afghanistan and China. Should I today claim the Indian borders go back to the Hindu-Kush? Or, to Khotan, which was settled by Emperor Ashoka's son with the first Buddhist missionaries?
Two thousand years is a long time.
We must respect that people have settled and established homes here over time -- and this must be respected. Otherwise, the Greeks should claim Anatolia -- ancient Magna Grecia -- or Germans should claim Polish East Prussia and Chezch Bohemia (Sudetenland) from where 13mm Germans were expelled only as recently as 1946
Yes, we must respect when there is a partner to talk to. 2000 years is a long time and yet we are still here...
Right on all counts Robert! What Israel needs is new and uncorrupted leadership. And what is needed in Gaza right now is an immediate ceasefire and humanitarian aid. Too many people are suffering and dying already!
Israel does need new leadership, for sure. We could probably help that along by attaching conditions, not just wishes, to US aid. IMO we should have said a long time ago that if Israel persisted in supporting illegal West Bank settlers, we would turn off the spigot.
Historically, under land for peace, right wing leaders added settlements as bargaining chips. Now some of the former government who wanted to negotiate are in a new "emergency" government. https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-10-11/ty-article/.premium/netanyahu-and-gantz-agree-on-formation-of-emergency-govt-during-war-with-hamas/0000018b-1efe-d2fc-a59f-dfffa9fe0000
Sigh
Professor,
As often happens, I wake up in the middle of my night to urinate. Sometimes, I go back to bed, too often I begin to doomscroll.
This morning, I tried to do some work, tried to play an online game but ended up doomscolling and then found you.
I have many reasons that I cannot focus. I suppose first is I have severe, chronic and persistent mental illness.
But these days I have another reason, I have family in Israel. In fact, I have hundreds of family in Israel. Some of them live there, some of them were there to celebrate the holidays with my uncle, who is 95 and not in good health and may not live another year.
For my family that lives in Israel, this is the most dangerous time since the creation of the state of Israel over 75 years ago.
I just read a New York times article that says there is a gathering feeling that Biden's support of Israel will cost him the 2024 election. That would be a shame for him but, if any of the current people who are running for President on the Republican side, win, a tragedy for the United States. I hope that I am wrong but I believe it is true.
Meanwhile in five hours, i will go to "feedback" session and tell people who are charged with ending homelessness in Illinois about how I think the current plan is working and what should be in the new plan.
I think they will fail. I think, in part because of that failure, I will become homeless. I hope I am wrong. I believe i am right.
I think that what I do, and for that matter what they do, will not end homelessness.
Still you have told me that I should act, as though I did not believe that. I have promised someone that I would try. This is me trying.
Wish me luck
Give peace a chance with much love
Fred
M Fred Friedman, I am not sure what to say to lift you up. But I can say, I am thinking of you at this moment and hoping your suffering will diminish and that the universe will bring you the housing you need.
Good luck Fred. 🙏🙏❤️
You are absolutely correct Mr Reich. Hate and aggression will only fan the flames of more hatred and a swelling of the ranks of Hamas.
When one feels or is oppressed a sorts of malignant tumors arise. Palestine has suffered sufficiently to have tumor like to plan this invasion for ten years.
There will be no winners unless we go back to the drawing board and negotiate. Peace is a dream that will never materialize so long as Diplomatic solution is found. I am anti war. Pacifist. Quakers are the one group that opposes all wars. American Friends Society. Not war aid society which we are now.
Every action has a reaction. When we support authoritarian regimes and their autocratic rule, we lose our humanity and open the door to justified retribution. Cause and effect.
If you're like me, you're feeling alienated and disconnected from seemingly everybody. We are being presented with either/ors on both sides, and each side is rationalizing its violence. Worse, we are hearing retelling of history that is corrupted by self-interest, or at best, is without context. I'm pretty fed up with what I am hearing, and I am saddened by the awful suffering. Neither side wants to hear straight talk, admit guilt, or retreat from tribalism.
The Geneva Convention and UN are there because our Grandparents suffered,fought and died for it. Simple, it’s time to make it work as it should along with the ICC. It’s the only civilising force humanity has.
GIVE THE TIMES
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OPINION | THE WORLD
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I Fought for the I.D.F. in Gaza. It Made Me Fight for Peace.
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OPINION
GUEST ESSAY
I Fought for the I.D.F. in Gaza. It Made Me Fight for Peace.
Oct. 28, 2023
Two horses wander through the rubble of buildings in Gaza in 2014.
Beit Hanoun, Gaza, after Israeli bombardment on July 26, 2014. Credit...Ali Hassan/Anadolu Agency, via Getty Images
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By Benzion Sanders
Mr. Sanders is the Jerusalem program director of Extend, a group that connects Palestinian and Israeli human rights leaders with American Jewish audiences, and a former staff member of Breaking the Silence, an anti-occupation veterans group.
When my Israeli infantry unit arrived at the first village in Gaza, in July 2014, we cleared houses by sending grenades through windows, blowing doors open and firing bullets into rooms to avoid ambush and booby traps. We were told Palestinian civilians had fled.
I realized this wasn’t true as I stood over the corpse of an elderly Palestinian woman whose face had been mutilated by shrapnel. She had been lying on the sand floor of a shack, in a pool of blood.
That was my experience the last time Israeli troops entered the Gaza Strip in a large-scale way, when my special forces unit, attached to the 993rd Nahal Brigade, was one of the first to go in.
Like the invasion that the Israeli military has said is imminent, that campaign was precipitated by atrocities carried out by Hamas terrorists. On June 12 of that year, Hamas kidnapped and murdered three Israeli teenagers; soon after, Israelis murdered a Palestinian teenager. The horrific exchange escalated into a larger conflict; ultimately some 70 Israelis and 2,250 Palestinians were killed over seven weeks. Then, as now, Israelis were told that we were going in to deal a decisive blow to Hamas.
As Israeli troops made incursions into Gaza on Friday and prepared for possible street-by-street urban combat, complicated by the presence of more than 200 hostages still being held by Hamas, I know firsthand the terror they can expect in an landscape of postapocalyptic bombed-out neighborhoods, where Hamas fighters could be lying in wait. There’s also the constant fear of coming under attack by mortars and missiles, and the possibility of a gunman emerging from the group’s underground network of tunnels.
Those three fateful weeks inside the Gaza Strip transformed me from a deeply religious, Modern Orthodox yeshiva student and West Bank settler into an activist with the movement opposing the Israeli occupation of Palestinian territories, first with the antiwar veterans organization Breaking the Silence and now with Extend, a group that connects Palestinian and Israeli human rights leaders with American Jewish audiences.
All our casualties and the suffering brought on Palestinians in Gaza accomplished nothing since our leaders refused to work on creating a political reality in which more violence would not be inevitable. While I believe in self-defense, fighting in Gaza taught me that if my government doesn’t change its approach from crushing Palestinian hope to committing to Palestinian independence, not only will this war kill an untold number of Israelis and Palestinians in addition to the thousands who already have died, but it also will not decisively end terror. A ground invasion is doomed to failure.
Even today, I remember how the ground shook from the constant explosions as we moved into Gaza at dusk at the start of the ground invasion on July 17. As we marched into the village of Umm al-Nasr, our Merkava tanks plowed through the fields next to us, and the aerial and artillery bombardments created relentless thunder and lightning — what we jokingly called the sound-and-light show.
Our main task over the two weeks I was in the northern Gaza Strip was to clear and secure a perimeter in urban areas to enable combat engineers to identify and demolish tunnels leading into Israel. We never wanted to stay stationary and become easy targets, so we would take up positions in a new house every night. Each house had to be cleared; in one, I found a Kalashnikov rifle with a combat vest and an explosive device. At one point, I listened in terror to graphic reports from our radioman of soldiers from my unit searching for body parts after a missile struck a nearby house they had taken over, injuring and killing some of my comrades.
The battle was unpredictable as we faced an enemy that used the complicated terrain to its advantage. It seemed that the Hamas fighters, like most of the civilians, had fled from our advance. Yet on the fourth day of the ground invasion, as we moved toward the Al-Burrah neighborhood in Beit Hanoun, a city in northeast Gaza, Hamas fighters suddenly came out from a tunnel behind us and killed four soldiers at the border fence.
As we withdrew from Beit Hanoun, we heard the roar of Air Force fighter jets overhead, followed by deafening explosions and towering plumes of debris and smoke rising from Al-Burrah. I later learned that in those moments, the airstrikes killed eight members of the Wahdan family, mostly women and children, whose home soldiers from my unit had occupied for days while the family was there.
At one point, I scribbled some thoughts on a piece of paper. I wrote that some members of my team had been tallying the number of soldiers killed and discussing whether this operation was worth the losses. “I think it could be worth it,” I wrote, “as long as we decisively eliminate the threat.”
That’s the lie they told us, and the lie that’s being repeated today: that we can decisively eliminate the threat of Hamas through a military operation. In the years since, Hamas has only grown stronger, despite our sacrifices and despite the death and destruction we had wrought on Gaza.
These periodic episodes of killing and destruction, which Israeli commentators and politicians cynically call “mowing the lawn,” have been a price Israel was willing to pay to avoid being pushed toward a two-state solution. We chose to “manage” the conflict through a combination of brute force and economic incentives, instead of working to solve it by ending our perpetual occupation of Palestinian territory.
Many of my Palestinian human rights partners who organize nonviolent protests are targeted and harassed by the Israeli military. I believe these policies have the goal of preventing pressure for a Palestinian state and permitting Israeli settlement development and creeping annexation in the West Bank.
For years, many of us on the left in Israel have been warning that we will never have peace and security until we find a political agreement in which Palestinians achieve freedom and independence. It isn’t just human rights activists taking this position: Even Ami Ayalon, the former head of the Israeli security service Shin Bet, has argued for years that Palestinian terror can be defeated only by creating Palestinian hope.
Tragically, many of those who made this argument were also the victims of Hamas’s heinous attack on Oct. 7. They included a fellow member of my unit who also served with me in Breaking the Silence, an anti-occupation veterans group. He was a security guard at a kibbutz attacked by Hamas and fought the terrorists for seven hours until he ran out of ammunition and was murdered.
I left his funeral last week crushed, knowing we had lost such a righteous soul. To me it’s clear. My friend not only fought against Hamas during his final moments to protect his friends and family; he also fought against Hamas during years of activism against the occupation.
My heart is broken but I am more resolved than ever to continue his legacy.
Thank you for this story. Everyone must read. There has got to be another way. Peace.
Thank you for your service. You are a hero! You have witnessed more than anyone should have to in a lifetime. It might surprise many on this thread that I believe another war is not in Israel's interest. It will kill more young Israeli soldiers and Israel never will win a propaganda war that Iran/Hamas has been fighting and more than more than 1.9 billion Muslims support.