Robert, my husband used to work for Boeing and could tell you all kinds of stories about the shitty things Boeing does. There are so many bad and bordering on illegal things they do. I hope they do a deep dive in Boeing in both the commercial and defense sides.
Why am I NOT surprised about all this ? I grew up in WIchita KS and my dad worked for Boeing in the 50's to late 60's (he bacame disabled after years bending over a drafting board as a tool designer and helped design the 747 in the mid 60's). I now live in Seattle WA after Boeing (during the boom and bust of the 60's) when Boeing moved us and many of dad's co-workers to Seattle when Boeing moved much of their operations to Seattle back then. Boeing's health insurance co was Aetna through dad's health decline.
Both Boeing and Aetna were boons to my family during this time until dad died in 1999.
Since then, as Robert said, the company has gone into a - down hill slide and learning the why's and wherefores of that decline is quite interesting to me having lived through much of the early times of this - decline. This all reminds me that Wichita is also the head quarters home to Koch Brothers Industries et al... How the times are a changin' ~ ~ ~
And that Seattle is or has been the head quarters home to both Microsoft AND Amazon,
the head of which has now 'fled' WA and the 'tax the rich' movement here to - Florida.
So sad. A friend in graduate school in late 70s, early 80s, was from Wichita, and his father was a Boeing engineer. He told us how those who designed and built a plane at the Boeing plant were required to first to fly in the plane once it was off the assembly line in order to test safety. These were long flights, sometimes halfway around the world in order to introduce realistic stresses. Only after passing this test could the plane be sold. He was proud of his father, and we were impressed by Boeing's emphasis on safety. Now such ethical practices are barely acknowledged, or altogether forgotten. Greedy corporations have reduced companies like Boeing to just a famous name.
There’s no safety at all. Even though the engineers bring up issues the manages quash them. And they’re systematically getting rid of the older engineers who will speak up in favor of cheaper young engineers who won’t say a thing. It’s all about money to them now. Not safety.
Boeing should take the current bean counters up in a 737 and make them sit next to the door plug opening.
I was originally going to say…. Take them up and throw them out the plane. But, that isn’t a very Christian thing to say. So, let’s just make them sit next to the door plugs with no seat belts.
Heh, heh, heh. Reminds me of the part of the 2000 movie Erin Brockovich where they provide glasses of water from the plume poisoned by PG&E for their arrogant lawyers and executives to drink. (Which upon hearing where the water is from, they decline to drink.)
Christians aren't alone in their thirst for blood. We see Iran's Muslims financing proxy armies Hamas, Houthis, and Hezbollah. And we see Netanyahu and the Jews slaughtering the Palestinians. And yet, the Palestinians cheered the Jan 6th slaughter of 1200 Jews.
Personally, I find your comment very naive Bob. I look at it as mankind is just flawed. We are all flawed. The Golden Rule goes a long way.
That is pretty terrifying as it is my understanding that Boeing and Airbus are the only companies making commercial planes. And we thought the only fear regarding flying was covid.
Correct. Thanks for sharing this. Boeing said they bought McDD but in fact, the execs from McDD ended up running the show. This is when the shift began from a family type company to a cost and quality chopper
Bombardier fell apart despite massive bail-outs, and Airbus bought the A220 (C-Series). Boeing tried repeatedly to prevent US airlines from buying the C-series, having nothing to offer as alternative but the quick design and flawed 737 Max... They probably didn't consider buying the project because there would be conditions like keeping the jobs there...
yeah...I just learned that the plane we are flying to and from Iceland for a visit is a Boeing 737 Max 9...operated by Icelandair. I'm sure they check their planes THOROUGHLY and have regularly scheduled maintenance, etc. but it's still a little nerve-wracking.
Now when you book on KAYAK. an option pops up that tells you it's a MAX and let's you change flights. The planes are dangerously too long, off-balance, and have insufficient emergency exits, and overloaded as bean-counter airline execs try to cram as many passengers as possible regardless of comfort or safety...
Unfortunately, until we get an ACTUAL "PROGRESSive" president, nothing is going to change. Things are "illegal" SOLELY for the 1%, which is why Bunkerboy can talk about assassination with confidence he will be safe!
If you want progressive consumer representation in government, you might want to consider a hefty, recurring donation to Representatives Katie Porter and Elizabeth Warren regardless of your state.
I thought the same thing of John Fetterman and donated to him only to find that he is all out supporting Israel in their genocide of the Palestinians. I wrote to him to protest and got a Democratic response form letter. This makes me wonder about all the other professed progressives in congress.
Yes, I was horribly disappointed in Fetterman also, he seemed to have such a stellar record when it came to his accomplishments in Pennsylvania. I'll answer his recent plea letters for campaign money with a NO and be sure to tell him why. Maybe he will begin to get the message. (I've been on Biden's case for 3 months now. I think HE is beginning to get the message, finally!)
On this case, the president isn't really the problem, it's rather Congress responsible to make appropriate regulations. And with only 49 true Democratic senators, it's unlikely you get to pass that legislation.
Even if we had a majority of true Democrats in the Senate, unless you have an overwhelming majority, most reforms can be scuttled. Bizarre systems were put into place originally to enable the Founding Fathers to convince the Southern slave states to join the Revolution. Even with the Civil War "theoretically" won by the Union, as soon as the Federal troops were withdrawn the system returned to "status quo ante" as fast as a rat up a drainpipe.
Also, the corporate captured states of the New Confederacy have enough permanent votes and can and will block any reform in the U.S. Senate. A Constitutional Convention won't help with reform because, guess what ? The New Confederacy can prevent a sufficient number of states from signing on to a Constitutional Convention of course. The fun never stops !
Wow, people could have died while "Corporate" was snuffing problems.
There should be a better reporting mechanism for workers who have complaints. They should not be silenced or brow beaten: Lives are at stake.
While the aeronautic industry keep saying that air transportation is the safest, whenever there is a tragedy, it is a couple of hundred people who stand to die.
Many decades ago, when I was in the Army airborne, the soldiers whose job was to pack parachutes, themselves were subject to parachute quality-control inspections. The inspection consisted of the parachute-packer strapping on a chute that he had prepared and then jumping out of an airplane. Perhaps the executives at Boeing should be forced to travel on the 737 at a window seat.
Unfortunately, he doesn't have the power to go over the heads of the Supremes. That would take an act of Congress which is unlikely in today's climate.
Ronald Regan ( The Empty Headed) claimed that he was going to get The Unelected Government Regulating Bureaucrats off of the Backs of Businesses to Start a NEW MORNING in America!!!
Regan’s Handlers had Banking and Financial Services as their goal and that Gsve Us Thr Daving And Loan Scandals.
ENRON And a host of other’s financial woes.
OSHA was another Target and The Air Traffic Controllers And The FAA were also targeted; along with Quality Control
This is similar to what Raytheon was, back in the 1970's-'80's, when I was in the Army as a maintenance tech on the Hawk air defense missile system...it was a collection of Raytheon junk, and very difficult to keep operational because working repair parts were often difficult to obtain and some of the Raytheon techs who were assigned to forward area systems to support the maintenance effort didn't know as much as some of the Army techs right out of school. I was one of the top 3 worldwide in my MOS in the system, maintaining radar, IFF, and command and control electronics, recognized by a number of high ranking officers in high positions, and therefore disliked and disrespected by local authorities. There were a number of things that could have been done much smarter in building the system that made it very difficult at times to repair problems. And, while the Army declared to Congress that the system was something like 80% combat ready, it was actually at best around 45% overall, mostly due to the way the components were designed and put together; in some things we had to be midget contortionists to work on something, and again, the problems with repair parts. Yet, our mission in Hawk was to be ready to fire missiles before the troops went out on the field, to keep them from being bombed and strafed by enemy aircraft...
Errors in manufacturing and maintenance are not new. Aircraft of many manufacturers, not just boeing, were occasionally received during WWII in Europe and in the Pacific with cleco fasteners still holding parts together instead of being riveted. About 40 years ago a 737 indicated an engine failure and fire in the left, so the crew shut it down. But due to a wiring mistake the right engine shut down. As to that Alaska 737 door plug being manufactured in Malaysia, consider where the hard drive in your computer was made. At least half of the discs spinning around the world today are from Malaysia. The important thing is that the Alaska 737 was able to land safely.
Besides the cogent comments in the article, I think no one is looking at the culture changes due to BA's increasing DOD work- which generally is more lucrative, less risky and not subject to commercial swings. The result is over attention and labor allocation to DOD biz at the expense of commercial. Many a US company has downsized their commercial sector to dine at the Pentagon trough...
Outsourcing is too expensive. META outsources its customer service to an Indian firm whose employees have no interest in solving problems.
They just want to send long, long emails telling you how sorry they are and thanking your for your patience.It is all cooing and sweetness and no competence. The actual workers barely understand the issues. They read from scripts. I have 50 emails from their Indian outsource firm which if released would make Mark very uncomfortable. Outsourcing is stupid.
I am fully confident that, when one's wealth finally reaches the one billion mark, one goes BATSHIT INSANE. They are INCAPABLE of connecting with their fellow human beings anymore.
Leonor, good ol' Mark is too rich to care. He has already turned that corporation over to whatever will bring in the bucks. Customer service is irrelevant to him. Losing a few customers doesn't matter because people are stuck to Facebook and won't leave easily. That is why we need regulation, but when the rich guys buy candidates, often ones who are ignorant of nearly everything, it is hard to even follow the laws that are already in place. Oh yes, the courts are open for purchase too, at least those nominated by Republican presidents.
William Boeing got an idea in the early 1900s and with a little help it took shape and in 1916 Boeing was born. Like most things that have to deal with changing times the airline industry has had its share of bumps and bruises. Hard times and competition has taken its toll and very few of the founders are still in the business, Boeing being one of them. Sadly, with new management and changing ideas, production has been known to take short cuts. You would think, knowing what's at stake even with the smallest of mistakes, that the level of expertise seen in the aircraft produced by Boeing would be exemplary. For people to have the necessary faith in air travel the craft in which they fly must meet the highest industry standards, and have friendly skies to fly in. We can only hope..
Joan, and HP is working to outsource nearly everything to India soon. They even have people in power who are from India and working on taking an iconic American company to India. I have nothing against India, but they have Why are We the People permitting this insanity? I keep wondering who gains and just what they are getting for their minor efforts?
My older son encountered the same callousness from H-1B visas in Chicago: The company invited foreign computer server workers [at a much lower pay, of course, since they don't know enough yet] and my son, who is a Computer Server Administrator had to preen them, train them and prepare them to take HIS job.
Those visa holders need a BA or a BS, but from another country. Since their visa is extendable, they can switch companies and stay here indefinitely.
When we hear so many horror stories about corporations preferring cost-cutting to quality assurance, doesn’t it make you wish for a federal government that adheres to the encouragement of the “general welfare” as stated in the preamble to the constitution? I get the feeling that the USA is not a coherent economic unit but rather a giant free-trade zone that allows victimization of its citizens on the altar of business.
Airbus must comply with strict standards, and if it fails to meet those standards, there are stiff consequences. Boeing "should" comply with strict standards, and if it fails to meet those standards, it slips-slides-away from any real consequences. Huge difference! Airbus has to answer to workers and government officials in western European countries. Boeing can merely depend on its Republikkkan and MAGA friends and supporters.
Standards are of naught if they are not enforced. The Corporate financed legislatures, especially Republican have gutted the regulatory agencies, as they interfere with the ability to maximize profits.
SCOTUS doesn't want the judges in control. They are clients of the powers that be, and as such are libertarian and don't believe in the commons, government regulation and business should b e laissez faire, and customers caveat emptor, the ultimate result of course if fascism, and of course Christian Fascism. A libertarian economy and a theocratic culture. Mussolini's Italy would be a proper model Tump is that and more than a healthy dose of Hitlerism.
The FAA claims that the systems incorporated into aircraft are too complex and its staffing inadequate, so it "outsources" safety inspection to.... BOEING. Classic case of the fox watching the henhouse.
I disagree. The FAA used to be all over plane production. We need to return to that kind of oversight. Do you want to be a passenger on a plane that goes down?
Unrestrained capitalism is not a viable economic model. The US regulatory environment and corporate greed are at irreconcilable odds. Corrupt corporations and a constrained regulatory environment will continue to wreak havoc on our ability to compete globally. We as citizens of the United States lose in this battle of corruption.
If unions continue to gain strength AND they take on these corrupted management decisions, and the upcoming SCOTUS ruling on Chevron v. Natural Resources Defense Council allows regulatory agencies to continue to do their jobs, then maybe, just maybe, companies like Boeing can no longer operate with impunity and start figuring out how to compete in a way that is beneficial to all stakeholders and the ecosystem.
Profits first, safety never. The same with all corporations, they exist for one purpose and one purpose only, according to a ruling by SCOTUS over a century ago, to produce a profit for the investor.
In the 1980s, I worked for a major aerospace company’s production unit. As I walked throughout the production floor, I noticed an increasing number of assembly line workers with bandaged wrists. I asked the Health & Safety Manager what was going on. He replied that those workers (all women) were recovering from carpal tunnel syndrome. I asked him whether so many injuries would hike up the company’s cost for workers compensation insurance. He replied, “Sure, but it’s cheaper to pay for more-expensive workers comp insurance than to buy new tooling on the assembly lines that would prevent carpal tunnel.”
Do you have any sources where I could learn more about that ruling? I've often heard that same refrain, but when I attempted find out more, e.g. date of the ruling, court case, relevant books, etc., the responsive was blank stares.
Google is your friend Dodge v Ford Motor Co., where in 1919 the Michigan Supreme Court declared that “a business corporation is organized and carried on primarily for the profit of the stockholders.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodge_v._Ford_Motor_Co.
It has never been appealed to SCOTUS, and is considered the foundation stone of corporate responsibility, but it's local application is up to the several states.
Standing in the way of that is the results of the " Charter wars"
John D Rockefeller, who famously said, Competition is a sin (he was a Calvinist)
Was disgruntled because the several states Corporate Charters had features which inhibited his drive for profit and monopoly, especially the corporate death sentence.
The states had laws that restricted corporations, via their charters, among them was a death penalty. mostly 50 years, and if they wanted to renew their charter they had to show a social benefit.
Rockefeller advertised that he would move his corporation (Standard Oil) to the state that produced the most favorable charter, thus started the charter wars. NJ won and he moved to Standard Oil of NJ. Delaware saw that and came up with a better corporate charter, but too late, but not for the over 600 companies that are chartered in Delaware.
And the Senators from Delaware are known as the Senators from Wall Street.
Corporations no longer have a death sentence and do not have to prove a social utility.
And corporations want to keep it that way. Even Rachel Maddow, who did a great expose on Nixon and the rise of fascism in America is not about to touch corporate misbehavior, power, monopoly. For one thing MSNBC is owned by NBCUniversal, which is owned by Comcast, which is owned by..... etc.
If curious do some googling on who owns who and drill down, you will be amazed, choose any company.
Did I say that SCOTUS said "safety never" No I didn't. However SCOTUS did rule that the corporation has only one purpose to make a positive return for the investors.
To do that, they have to ignore any features that interfere with profit maximization.
Auto' manufacturers didn't invest in safety features until forced by the government.
Meat packers and the food industry didn't invest in health and safety until forced to.
Tobacco manufacturers lied about the carcinogenic and health problems of their products.
Exxon has lied to the public about petroleum is causing global warming, and then knew better from their own research which they published in 1974.
Union carbide killed over 2,000 people in India because they wouldn't invest in preventive maintenance.
Government regulation is what keeps us safe, our food safe, and as the corporations use the power of their money to bribe politicians and water down or just eliminate regulations, the hazards to public health increase.
Google Love Canal as just one example.
What is destructive to public safety, health, well being, and standard of living is unchecked, unregulated pursuit of profits.
The sad reality is that if Boeing focused entirely on building the best, safest aircraft in the world, and stopped cutting every financial corner, they would be printing money now and forever. The market is a duopoly and any great aircraft sells itself. Once they begin deliveries of each major new model (e.g. 787), the order backlog is soon overwhelming and this company once again becomes a cash machine. It does not matter how much they spend or 'save' in developing the latest model. It is a colossal failure of leadership dating back at least 20 years that the impulse for short-term greed took over and Boeing did cut nearly every corner imaginable. The culture of quality and safety was subordinated to short-sighted greed. The entire board of directors and the past 7 CEOs are all culpable. The entire board and current CEO should be replaced immediately.
My point is that the highest level of quality and safety will in fact maximize profit and cash flow. It is the failure to serve the mission of quality and safety that has destroyed the company's economic model.
But the incentive structure of airlines and their funding comes from short term, wall street, practices. Until the Government changes airlines incentives they will keep churning out terrible products (Boeing) and increasingly terrible service (all airlines).
No. See Matt Stoller’s analysis. When Boeing merged with McDonnell Douglas, which was run by accounting types, they let them run the company. So it shifted from an engineering culture to a Wall Street culture.
And that’s the other despicable act: The right wing media has launched an attack
on DEI claiming “shotty” work by DEI hires as the cause of these issues, but not telling the actual truth. Profits and dismantling DEI go hand-in-hand with the tactics of the deplorables. Share this far and wide.
This is a known issue. When Boeing corporate deserted Seattle for Chicago some years ago we realized that the company we knew and loved was gone forever. While much of the manufacturing is still in Seattle they moved the 787 to South Carolina. And the quality control in virtually every line has been sorely lacking.
What happened to Lockheed and Douglas? Here is another example of the monopolies of capitalism willing to sacrifice our safety and our lives for yet another Buck.
And Lockheed? In the Luftwaffe the Lockheed F-104 was nicknamed "The flying coffin" because of its proclivity for crashing. Then there was the Lockheed Electra, best known for its wings falling off. The Navy may still be flying a few of them (designation P-3) but they had a habit of inspecting the wing roots about once per microsecond.
As it does so many times, it starts with "...company’s new-model CEOs, who no longer came to their posts from careers in production, but rather from the financial side of the industry. "
If you don't know anything about what the company does, you shouldn't trying to run it.
Living in Seattle for over 40 years (and my wife much longer, she was born here) I can attest to the dismay locals feel about the Lazy B. When corp moved to Chicago for no good reason, that really chaffed. It highlighted the drive to increase stockholder value over quality. How'd that work out? Like crap.
Paul, it would be a wonderful thing to have civilised discourse, scientific attitudes, rational outlooks, no superstitious outrage, reason, logic, analysis, honesty, decency, calm.
Very nice post! (Perhaps an unfortunate choice of words.) An additional factor in the decline of Boeing is their embrace of the corporate culture of McDonnell-Douglas in 1997. Up until that time Boeing had a solid reputation for quality and safety, but that started to change after the merger.
Though some commenters have blamed Boeing's defense business for the decline, I find that argument difficult to take seriously, as Boeing was the Air Force's almost exclusive supplier of strategic bombers, tankers and jet-powered transports for five decades beginning in the early 1950s.
As is the case for so many other corporations, the rot starts at the top. Let's not forget that their leadership and big investors poured millions into ALEC's efforts to modify corporate charters to make profit the sine qua non of American corporations.
Right you are that BA has done huge govt biz in past but since 707 they've had huge commercial biz too. My experience is capital and MGMT attention focused on higher revenue biz(dod) ignore key day to day commercial stuff. This coupled with increasing lobbying skills has apparently gotten us where we are now.
OK- retired Boeing engineer here. First, before attacking Boeing for a door plug manufactured in Malaysia, let us all be reminded that the door plug itself had no part in that incident. The problem centered around installation hardware accomplished at Spirit, where missing or loose parts played a part. We will learn more in the coming weeks. Outsourced parts or assemblies have been a part of Boeing (and Airbus BTW) for a very long time. Usually, it is done to attract buyers. No doubt, the Malaysian door is a result of a large purchase from Malaysian Airlines - a longtime Boeing customer. I believe Boeing's problems began with the merger with McConnell Douglas around the year 2000. It was also around this time where Boeings mission statement was revised to put "shareholder value" as its primary goal. One could argue that safe airplanes are good for shareholder value - but most employees did not see this as good news. Also, McConnell Douglas at that time was much more like what Dr. Reich is describing here. Unfortunately, I believe a good bit of the sh_tty culture from McD-D infected Boeing with the merger. In the year 2000 Boeing's Engineers struck for the first time ever, and this proceeded the merger. The engineers concerns were more than pay and benefits - they also were concerned about developments that many thought tended to put airplane safety in the back seat - that "shareholder value" thing. I retired in 2018, and in my long career I never saw any unsafe practices or decisions by Boeing. Despite the merger, and despite everything else. The 737 Max accidents were a total shock to me and probably nearly all Boeing employees past and present. It looks as if it reflects a misguided "shareholder value" way of doing business. One must also factor in the fact that Airbus is more subsidized than Boeing. They can and have underpriced their aircraft to compete, putting extreme financial pressure on Boeing. That in turn can increase the chances of cutting corners in efforts to minimize operating costs.
Several months ago I heard something similar from an engineer who works for a Boeing supplier. She (sister-in-law of a friend) also said the culture of safety started declining after the McD-D merger. I recounted in another post here that a fellow graduate student in late 70s/early 80s told me how his engineer father, with Boeing in the Wichita plant, was required to fly with other engineers and workers, every plane on a long stress test flight, before it could be sold. Your post seems to confirm what I heard more recently about the McD-D connection.
"...his engineer father, with Boeing in the Wichita plant, was required to fly with other engineers and workers, every plane on a long stress test flight, before it could be sold." Hmmm. Flight tests of Boeing commercial aircraft do not occur in Wichita; never have. They all happen in the Seattle area either at Boeing Field (Seattle) for single aisle aircraft or Paine Field (Everett) for wide-bodies. Those flight tests are normally routine of course, and not necessarily terribly long, to shake out any bugs, and to demonstrate to the FAA reps that the airplane is ready for service. There are also customer flights to demonstrate to the customer that his airplane is working to perfection. The only reason why specialist engineers might be on a flight is if there is a problem with something in his/her area of expertise. And that is rare. I once was on a test flight to investigate a reported annoying whistle coming from a passenger door (it was a defective air seal), which was part of my engineering responsibility at the time (pressurized doors). I can tell you that was a fun flight, with touch-and-go's under full thrust from a lightly loaded 767. The only long endurance type test flights with flight test engineers on board would be for first of a kind versions or major changes.
As happens all the time with the press and social media - the nitty gritty details are either ignored or not understood or mis-understood. This is especially true of large complex things like commercial aircraft. While departure of a pressurized door (or door plug in this case) and subsequent rapid decompression on a revenue flight is a very serious thing indeed, incidences or accidents with large commercial aircraft have been a thing ever since we had commercial aircraft. And certainly not just Boeing. Statistically airplane travel is more safe than ever. What will happen here will be changes in the manufacturing process to assure whatever abnormality occurred on the factory floor is not repeated again. Perhaps even a design change to add in a fail-safe feature to prevent upward migration of the door plug in the opening. We should resist kicking Boeing while it is down.
BTW - I will NEVER forgive Boeing for opening a second 787 factory in South Carolina back when that happened. While the other option was to expand the Everett facility. While there were strategic reasons for doing so, the fact is that SC was and is a right-to-work state and Boeing liked that. It was a big middle finger to the machinist union (IAM), which it has been at odds with decades.
I agree we need to be cautious in passing judgement too quickly about the recent incident, but I also think Boeing put themselves in the crosshairs with the MAX fatalities and general lack of oversight. As mentioned in the other reply, perhaps my friend's account was the result of a dad telling sn impressive story to his son, and also the result of the son, perhaps young at the time, selectively remembering a really cool story. Thank you for supplying additional details.
Regarding the South Carolina plant, the South is not union friendly, and I am sure Boeing knew it when they opened a plant there.
I was in Lawrence, KS at the time, so only know what he told us. Could they have traveled to Seattle first? He told us the test flight was required, and we assumed it was from Wichita, but he probably did not mention the origin. He said it was required for anyone who performed major work in designing or building the aircraft. When planes were built in Wichita, were they delivered to another location for final assembly, or were they flown to the customer? This would have been in 1970s or perhaps earlier. Perhaps it was for a specific customer, as you suggested, and our friend was too young at the time to recall additional details? He said his father went to Europe and back on one of these flights. The small group of us who heard this information were impressed with Boeing's committment to safety at that time.
Boeing Wichita (now Spirit) was and still is Boeing's primary fuselage section manufacturer, depending on the airplane model. They supply the lion's share of 737 fuselage sections for instance (and 757's when it was in production), but only the front end (called "section 41") for 747, 767, 777 at least. There are others for other fuselage sections on other models - Japanese companies (MHI, KHI, FHI), and Northrup-Grumman. 787 is carbon fiber, and I do not recall if Wichita is involved in that. They do other items as well, but not wings. Wing main boxes (the spars and everything in between) are done in Washington state exclusively, then and now. The technology for wing primary structure manufacture is well-guarded and stays close to home. And it is amazing. So, Wichita has never produced an entire Boeing commercial airplane - only components. What they do is manufacture fuselage sections and put them on train cars to ship to Washington. Perhaps the details of friend's father's stories of flight tests are just lost in time. That's OK. Just providing context here.
Thank you for sharing your knowledge. I do hope the best for Boeing in the future. Wherever the flight occurred, I am pretty sure it happened. My friend may have assumed the exact location did not matter as much at the time of telling the story as it does now.
Robert, my husband used to work for Boeing and could tell you all kinds of stories about the shitty things Boeing does. There are so many bad and bordering on illegal things they do. I hope they do a deep dive in Boeing in both the commercial and defense sides.
It is not the same Boeing as it was when T.A.Wilson was CEO back in the 1980's.
Why am I NOT surprised about all this ? I grew up in WIchita KS and my dad worked for Boeing in the 50's to late 60's (he bacame disabled after years bending over a drafting board as a tool designer and helped design the 747 in the mid 60's). I now live in Seattle WA after Boeing (during the boom and bust of the 60's) when Boeing moved us and many of dad's co-workers to Seattle when Boeing moved much of their operations to Seattle back then. Boeing's health insurance co was Aetna through dad's health decline.
Both Boeing and Aetna were boons to my family during this time until dad died in 1999.
Since then, as Robert said, the company has gone into a - down hill slide and learning the why's and wherefores of that decline is quite interesting to me having lived through much of the early times of this - decline. This all reminds me that Wichita is also the head quarters home to Koch Brothers Industries et al... How the times are a changin' ~ ~ ~
And that Seattle is or has been the head quarters home to both Microsoft AND Amazon,
the head of which has now 'fled' WA and the 'tax the rich' movement here to - Florida.
Why am I NOT surprised about this - either ~ ~
So sad. A friend in graduate school in late 70s, early 80s, was from Wichita, and his father was a Boeing engineer. He told us how those who designed and built a plane at the Boeing plant were required to first to fly in the plane once it was off the assembly line in order to test safety. These were long flights, sometimes halfway around the world in order to introduce realistic stresses. Only after passing this test could the plane be sold. He was proud of his father, and we were impressed by Boeing's emphasis on safety. Now such ethical practices are barely acknowledged, or altogether forgotten. Greedy corporations have reduced companies like Boeing to just a famous name.
There’s no safety at all. Even though the engineers bring up issues the manages quash them. And they’re systematically getting rid of the older engineers who will speak up in favor of cheaper young engineers who won’t say a thing. It’s all about money to them now. Not safety.
Boeing should take the current bean counters up in a 737 and make them sit next to the door plug opening.
I was originally going to say…. Take them up and throw them out the plane. But, that isn’t a very Christian thing to say. So, let’s just make them sit next to the door plugs with no seat belts.
Heh, heh, heh. Reminds me of the part of the 2000 movie Erin Brockovich where they provide glasses of water from the plume poisoned by PG&E for their arrogant lawyers and executives to drink. (Which upon hearing where the water is from, they decline to drink.)
But Christians love killing people-and you said it
Christians aren't alone in their thirst for blood. We see Iran's Muslims financing proxy armies Hamas, Houthis, and Hezbollah. And we see Netanyahu and the Jews slaughtering the Palestinians. And yet, the Palestinians cheered the Jan 6th slaughter of 1200 Jews.
Personally, I find your comment very naive Bob. I look at it as mankind is just flawed. We are all flawed. The Golden Rule goes a long way.
Thank you for sharing this.
Something similar happened to NorTel here in Canada the company lost its "mojo".
That is pretty terrifying as it is my understanding that Boeing and Airbus are the only companies making commercial planes. And we thought the only fear regarding flying was covid.
Damn, I miss McDonnell Douglas, Lockheed and the oulde Boeing.
What happened to Lockheed & McDonnell Douglas? I've heard news about them until fairly recently. & it seems there was another one...
Correct. Thanks for sharing this. Boeing said they bought McDD but in fact, the execs from McDD ended up running the show. This is when the shift began from a family type company to a cost and quality chopper
Canadian Bombardier and Brazilian Embraer are two others selling to US airlines.
Bombardier fell apart despite massive bail-outs, and Airbus bought the A220 (C-Series). Boeing tried repeatedly to prevent US airlines from buying the C-series, having nothing to offer as alternative but the quick design and flawed 737 Max... They probably didn't consider buying the project because there would be conditions like keeping the jobs there...
and Bombardier kept the lucrative private jet market, I suppose wealthy people don't really shop for anything but status.
Thanks for the update.
Embraer also makes planes for commercial aviation, for somewhat shorter routes (ranges up to 2,000-2,850 nm, depending on model of plane).
I've flown on Embraer and have loved the experience.
yeah...I just learned that the plane we are flying to and from Iceland for a visit is a Boeing 737 Max 9...operated by Icelandair. I'm sure they check their planes THOROUGHLY and have regularly scheduled maintenance, etc. but it's still a little nerve-wracking.
Now when you book on KAYAK. an option pops up that tells you it's a MAX and let's you change flights. The planes are dangerously too long, off-balance, and have insufficient emergency exits, and overloaded as bean-counter airline execs try to cram as many passengers as possible regardless of comfort or safety...
😱
Flying is still safer than driving. I hope you have a wonderful trip. No sense in borrowing trouble.
only companies making commercial aircraft? Look up Comac. Then look up Bombardier and Embraer
Unfortunately, until we get an ACTUAL "PROGRESSive" president, nothing is going to change. Things are "illegal" SOLELY for the 1%, which is why Bunkerboy can talk about assassination with confidence he will be safe!
If you want progressive consumer representation in government, you might want to consider a hefty, recurring donation to Representatives Katie Porter and Elizabeth Warren regardless of your state.
I thought the same thing of John Fetterman and donated to him only to find that he is all out supporting Israel in their genocide of the Palestinians. I wrote to him to protest and got a Democratic response form letter. This makes me wonder about all the other professed progressives in congress.
Checking their voting records and the bills they sponsor is how I determine who is doing a good job
Yes, I was horribly disappointed in Fetterman also, he seemed to have such a stellar record when it came to his accomplishments in Pennsylvania. I'll answer his recent plea letters for campaign money with a NO and be sure to tell him why. Maybe he will begin to get the message. (I've been on Biden's case for 3 months now. I think HE is beginning to get the message, finally!)
On this case, the president isn't really the problem, it's rather Congress responsible to make appropriate regulations. And with only 49 true Democratic senators, it's unlikely you get to pass that legislation.
Even if we had a majority of true Democrats in the Senate, unless you have an overwhelming majority, most reforms can be scuttled. Bizarre systems were put into place originally to enable the Founding Fathers to convince the Southern slave states to join the Revolution. Even with the Civil War "theoretically" won by the Union, as soon as the Federal troops were withdrawn the system returned to "status quo ante" as fast as a rat up a drainpipe.
Also, the corporate captured states of the New Confederacy have enough permanent votes and can and will block any reform in the U.S. Senate. A Constitutional Convention won't help with reform because, guess what ? The New Confederacy can prevent a sufficient number of states from signing on to a Constitutional Convention of course. The fun never stops !
https://www.levernews.com/lever-weekly-we-are-being-asked-to-purposely-record-inaccurate-information/
Wow, people could have died while "Corporate" was snuffing problems.
There should be a better reporting mechanism for workers who have complaints. They should not be silenced or brow beaten: Lives are at stake.
While the aeronautic industry keep saying that air transportation is the safest, whenever there is a tragedy, it is a couple of hundred people who stand to die.
Many decades ago, when I was in the Army airborne, the soldiers whose job was to pack parachutes, themselves were subject to parachute quality-control inspections. The inspection consisted of the parachute-packer strapping on a chute that he had prepared and then jumping out of an airplane. Perhaps the executives at Boeing should be forced to travel on the 737 at a window seat.
Indeed.
China's approach to Y2K mitigation was that at turnover every bureau manager was to be in a position where things breaking would kill them.
They mitigated.
This is the fault of the news industry decline. Corporations bought up all the main stream media and reports of complaints disappeared.
Citizens United has to go. They are buying Senators, Representatives, Judges... when is Merrick Garland going to put an end to that?
Unfortunately, he doesn't have the power to go over the heads of the Supremes. That would take an act of Congress which is unlikely in today's climate.
I wonder if there is a way for workers to anonymously report to, for example, the FAA?
Thank you for sharing this.
Ronald Regan ( The Empty Headed) claimed that he was going to get The Unelected Government Regulating Bureaucrats off of the Backs of Businesses to Start a NEW MORNING in America!!!
Regan’s Handlers had Banking and Financial Services as their goal and that Gsve Us Thr Daving And Loan Scandals.
ENRON And a host of other’s financial woes.
OSHA was another Target and The Air Traffic Controllers And The FAA were also targeted; along with Quality Control
Yeah. And the Republicans want to trash ALL government regulation of corporations. They (the corps) will be so DILIGENT at policing themselves. /not
This is similar to what Raytheon was, back in the 1970's-'80's, when I was in the Army as a maintenance tech on the Hawk air defense missile system...it was a collection of Raytheon junk, and very difficult to keep operational because working repair parts were often difficult to obtain and some of the Raytheon techs who were assigned to forward area systems to support the maintenance effort didn't know as much as some of the Army techs right out of school. I was one of the top 3 worldwide in my MOS in the system, maintaining radar, IFF, and command and control electronics, recognized by a number of high ranking officers in high positions, and therefore disliked and disrespected by local authorities. There were a number of things that could have been done much smarter in building the system that made it very difficult at times to repair problems. And, while the Army declared to Congress that the system was something like 80% combat ready, it was actually at best around 45% overall, mostly due to the way the components were designed and put together; in some things we had to be midget contortionists to work on something, and again, the problems with repair parts. Yet, our mission in Hawk was to be ready to fire missiles before the troops went out on the field, to keep them from being bombed and strafed by enemy aircraft...
Errors in manufacturing and maintenance are not new. Aircraft of many manufacturers, not just boeing, were occasionally received during WWII in Europe and in the Pacific with cleco fasteners still holding parts together instead of being riveted. About 40 years ago a 737 indicated an engine failure and fire in the left, so the crew shut it down. But due to a wiring mistake the right engine shut down. As to that Alaska 737 door plug being manufactured in Malaysia, consider where the hard drive in your computer was made. At least half of the discs spinning around the world today are from Malaysia. The important thing is that the Alaska 737 was able to land safely.
Besides the cogent comments in the article, I think no one is looking at the culture changes due to BA's increasing DOD work- which generally is more lucrative, less risky and not subject to commercial swings. The result is over attention and labor allocation to DOD biz at the expense of commercial. Many a US company has downsized their commercial sector to dine at the Pentagon trough...
Their production of the new AirForce tanker was a fiasco of delays, shoddy workmanship and quality control.
For which they get paid by DOD to fix.
Outsourcing is too expensive. META outsources its customer service to an Indian firm whose employees have no interest in solving problems.
They just want to send long, long emails telling you how sorry they are and thanking your for your patience.It is all cooing and sweetness and no competence. The actual workers barely understand the issues. They read from scripts. I have 50 emails from their Indian outsource firm which if released would make Mark very uncomfortable. Outsourcing is stupid.
I don't think Mark cares one whit...
I am fully confident that, when one's wealth finally reaches the one billion mark, one goes BATSHIT INSANE. They are INCAPABLE of connecting with their fellow human beings anymore.
Hence most problems on Earth today!
Leonor, good ol' Mark is too rich to care. He has already turned that corporation over to whatever will bring in the bucks. Customer service is irrelevant to him. Losing a few customers doesn't matter because people are stuck to Facebook and won't leave easily. That is why we need regulation, but when the rich guys buy candidates, often ones who are ignorant of nearly everything, it is hard to even follow the laws that are already in place. Oh yes, the courts are open for purchase too, at least those nominated by Republican presidents.
You are probably right. But he is young and his two little kids have to live here for a long time. I am still hoping...
I admire your positivity.
They won’t live with us.
William Boeing got an idea in the early 1900s and with a little help it took shape and in 1916 Boeing was born. Like most things that have to deal with changing times the airline industry has had its share of bumps and bruises. Hard times and competition has taken its toll and very few of the founders are still in the business, Boeing being one of them. Sadly, with new management and changing ideas, production has been known to take short cuts. You would think, knowing what's at stake even with the smallest of mistakes, that the level of expertise seen in the aircraft produced by Boeing would be exemplary. For people to have the necessary faith in air travel the craft in which they fly must meet the highest industry standards, and have friendly skies to fly in. We can only hope..
ED--I was a plumber for a period of time, and I have a terrible fear of juice-- You're the man.
Joan, and HP is working to outsource nearly everything to India soon. They even have people in power who are from India and working on taking an iconic American company to India. I have nothing against India, but they have Why are We the People permitting this insanity? I keep wondering who gains and just what they are getting for their minor efforts?
Please release them! Why not?
My older son encountered the same callousness from H-1B visas in Chicago: The company invited foreign computer server workers [at a much lower pay, of course, since they don't know enough yet] and my son, who is a Computer Server Administrator had to preen them, train them and prepare them to take HIS job.
Those visa holders need a BA or a BS, but from another country. Since their visa is extendable, they can switch companies and stay here indefinitely.
When we hear so many horror stories about corporations preferring cost-cutting to quality assurance, doesn’t it make you wish for a federal government that adheres to the encouragement of the “general welfare” as stated in the preamble to the constitution? I get the feeling that the USA is not a coherent economic unit but rather a giant free-trade zone that allows victimization of its citizens on the altar of business.
Yes, this is what happens when Capitalism rules!
Trust me; I won't: I want to KEEP IT GREAT and make it even better.
Airbus must comply with strict standards, and if it fails to meet those standards, there are stiff consequences. Boeing "should" comply with strict standards, and if it fails to meet those standards, it slips-slides-away from any real consequences. Huge difference! Airbus has to answer to workers and government officials in western European countries. Boeing can merely depend on its Republikkkan and MAGA friends and supporters.
Standards are of naught if they are not enforced. The Corporate financed legislatures, especially Republican have gutted the regulatory agencies, as they interfere with the ability to maximize profits.
Think about the Republican controlled Supreme Court thinking courts and judges should be in control not agencies with actual expertise.
SCOTUS doesn't want the judges in control. They are clients of the powers that be, and as such are libertarian and don't believe in the commons, government regulation and business should b e laissez faire, and customers caveat emptor, the ultimate result of course if fascism, and of course Christian Fascism. A libertarian economy and a theocratic culture. Mussolini's Italy would be a proper model Tump is that and more than a healthy dose of Hitlerism.
Trump often poses like Benito Mussolini.
On purpose too,, when he is thinking of it, and not off on some wild eyed rant.
The FAA claims that the systems incorporated into aircraft are too complex and its staffing inadequate, so it "outsources" safety inspection to.... BOEING. Classic case of the fox watching the henhouse.
I disagree. The FAA used to be all over plane production. We need to return to that kind of oversight. Do you want to be a passenger on a plane that goes down?
I'm blocking you.
What is this? A website? A blog?
They will only be accountable when enough people are endangered that it affects their profits!
Deregulation will be the “standard”
It practically is already.
Unrestrained capitalism is not a viable economic model. The US regulatory environment and corporate greed are at irreconcilable odds. Corrupt corporations and a constrained regulatory environment will continue to wreak havoc on our ability to compete globally. We as citizens of the United States lose in this battle of corruption.
If unions continue to gain strength AND they take on these corrupted management decisions, and the upcoming SCOTUS ruling on Chevron v. Natural Resources Defense Council allows regulatory agencies to continue to do their jobs, then maybe, just maybe, companies like Boeing can no longer operate with impunity and start figuring out how to compete in a way that is beneficial to all stakeholders and the ecosystem.
Well said!
Pay the shareholders above all things. Do the at by cutting the workforce and accepting accidents. The cost of doing business.
That’s exactly it.
HaHa. The quality of the product should take precedence; then the shareholders benefit long term.
In this corporate climate probably none.
Profits first, safety never. The same with all corporations, they exist for one purpose and one purpose only, according to a ruling by SCOTUS over a century ago, to produce a profit for the investor.
In the 1980s, I worked for a major aerospace company’s production unit. As I walked throughout the production floor, I noticed an increasing number of assembly line workers with bandaged wrists. I asked the Health & Safety Manager what was going on. He replied that those workers (all women) were recovering from carpal tunnel syndrome. I asked him whether so many injuries would hike up the company’s cost for workers compensation insurance. He replied, “Sure, but it’s cheaper to pay for more-expensive workers comp insurance than to buy new tooling on the assembly lines that would prevent carpal tunnel.”
See above
Do you have any sources where I could learn more about that ruling? I've often heard that same refrain, but when I attempted find out more, e.g. date of the ruling, court case, relevant books, etc., the responsive was blank stares.
Google is your friend Dodge v Ford Motor Co., where in 1919 the Michigan Supreme Court declared that “a business corporation is organized and carried on primarily for the profit of the stockholders.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodge_v._Ford_Motor_Co.
It has never been appealed to SCOTUS, and is considered the foundation stone of corporate responsibility, but it's local application is up to the several states.
Standing in the way of that is the results of the " Charter wars"
John D Rockefeller, who famously said, Competition is a sin (he was a Calvinist)
Was disgruntled because the several states Corporate Charters had features which inhibited his drive for profit and monopoly, especially the corporate death sentence.
The states had laws that restricted corporations, via their charters, among them was a death penalty. mostly 50 years, and if they wanted to renew their charter they had to show a social benefit.
Rockefeller advertised that he would move his corporation (Standard Oil) to the state that produced the most favorable charter, thus started the charter wars. NJ won and he moved to Standard Oil of NJ. Delaware saw that and came up with a better corporate charter, but too late, but not for the over 600 companies that are chartered in Delaware.
And the Senators from Delaware are known as the Senators from Wall Street.
Corporations no longer have a death sentence and do not have to prove a social utility.
https://www.truthdig.com/articles/its-time-to-bring-back-the-corporate-death-penalty/
Thank you for these links. I had never heard of Dodge v Ford.
And corporations want to keep it that way. Even Rachel Maddow, who did a great expose on Nixon and the rise of fascism in America is not about to touch corporate misbehavior, power, monopoly. For one thing MSNBC is owned by NBCUniversal, which is owned by Comcast, which is owned by..... etc.
If curious do some googling on who owns who and drill down, you will be amazed, choose any company.
Did I say that SCOTUS said "safety never" No I didn't. However SCOTUS did rule that the corporation has only one purpose to make a positive return for the investors.
To do that, they have to ignore any features that interfere with profit maximization.
Auto' manufacturers didn't invest in safety features until forced by the government.
Meat packers and the food industry didn't invest in health and safety until forced to.
Tobacco manufacturers lied about the carcinogenic and health problems of their products.
Exxon has lied to the public about petroleum is causing global warming, and then knew better from their own research which they published in 1974.
Union carbide killed over 2,000 people in India because they wouldn't invest in preventive maintenance.
Government regulation is what keeps us safe, our food safe, and as the corporations use the power of their money to bribe politicians and water down or just eliminate regulations, the hazards to public health increase.
Google Love Canal as just one example.
What is destructive to public safety, health, well being, and standard of living is unchecked, unregulated pursuit of profits.
Excellent comment here, Lee!
That's not what Lee Maryland said, though, so whom are you arguing with?
The sad reality is that if Boeing focused entirely on building the best, safest aircraft in the world, and stopped cutting every financial corner, they would be printing money now and forever. The market is a duopoly and any great aircraft sells itself. Once they begin deliveries of each major new model (e.g. 787), the order backlog is soon overwhelming and this company once again becomes a cash machine. It does not matter how much they spend or 'save' in developing the latest model. It is a colossal failure of leadership dating back at least 20 years that the impulse for short-term greed took over and Boeing did cut nearly every corner imaginable. The culture of quality and safety was subordinated to short-sighted greed. The entire board of directors and the past 7 CEOs are all culpable. The entire board and current CEO should be replaced immediately.
My point is that the highest level of quality and safety will in fact maximize profit and cash flow. It is the failure to serve the mission of quality and safety that has destroyed the company's economic model.
But the incentive structure of airlines and their funding comes from short term, wall street, practices. Until the Government changes airlines incentives they will keep churning out terrible products (Boeing) and increasingly terrible service (all airlines).
It is our own fault.
Did this shop of horrors begin with Reagan’s deregulation of the airlines?
No. See Matt Stoller’s analysis. When Boeing merged with McDonnell Douglas, which was run by accounting types, they let them run the company. So it shifted from an engineering culture to a Wall Street culture.
Guess? deregulated price regulation leads to lessened quality.
Are you racist?
Do you have to ask?😂
And that’s the other despicable act: The right wing media has launched an attack
on DEI claiming “shotty” work by DEI hires as the cause of these issues, but not telling the actual truth. Profits and dismantling DEI go hand-in-hand with the tactics of the deplorables. Share this far and wide.
https://popular.info/p/loose-bolts-open-door-to-racism?r=ottd6&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=email&fbclid=IwAR3f1rEDqmUvZfvDZzXLTa9Ot0HNU_3jKaSxfcs_E07caFs9-sFucFj3DYY_aem_AUrd7xs3iASOO51ktiJ7333qtaR2o7L9nE9GFpDVr86GtV4QRLvdxzO0QGA3o0U4EWQ
Are you a proud racist?
This is a known issue. When Boeing corporate deserted Seattle for Chicago some years ago we realized that the company we knew and loved was gone forever. While much of the manufacturing is still in Seattle they moved the 787 to South Carolina. And the quality control in virtually every line has been sorely lacking.
What happened to Lockheed and Douglas? Here is another example of the monopolies of capitalism willing to sacrifice our safety and our lives for yet another Buck.
Boeing merged with McDonnell Douglas in 1997. It was following this merger that the historic culture of safety at Boeing began to disappear.
And Lockheed? In the Luftwaffe the Lockheed F-104 was nicknamed "The flying coffin" because of its proclivity for crashing. Then there was the Lockheed Electra, best known for its wings falling off. The Navy may still be flying a few of them (designation P-3) but they had a habit of inspecting the wing roots about once per microsecond.
And the Supreme Court is about to take over regulation… I feel so safe about all of this “NOT”!
As it does so many times, it starts with "...company’s new-model CEOs, who no longer came to their posts from careers in production, but rather from the financial side of the industry. "
If you don't know anything about what the company does, you shouldn't trying to run it.
Living in Seattle for over 40 years (and my wife much longer, she was born here) I can attest to the dismay locals feel about the Lazy B. When corp moved to Chicago for no good reason, that really chaffed. It highlighted the drive to increase stockholder value over quality. How'd that work out? Like crap.
The basic USA problem seems to be uncivilised, greedy, short term, cynical stupidity, everywhere.
Paul, it would be a wonderful thing to have civilised discourse, scientific attitudes, rational outlooks, no superstitious outrage, reason, logic, analysis, honesty, decency, calm.
Very nice post! (Perhaps an unfortunate choice of words.) An additional factor in the decline of Boeing is their embrace of the corporate culture of McDonnell-Douglas in 1997. Up until that time Boeing had a solid reputation for quality and safety, but that started to change after the merger.
Though some commenters have blamed Boeing's defense business for the decline, I find that argument difficult to take seriously, as Boeing was the Air Force's almost exclusive supplier of strategic bombers, tankers and jet-powered transports for five decades beginning in the early 1950s.
As is the case for so many other corporations, the rot starts at the top. Let's not forget that their leadership and big investors poured millions into ALEC's efforts to modify corporate charters to make profit the sine qua non of American corporations.
Right you are that BA has done huge govt biz in past but since 707 they've had huge commercial biz too. My experience is capital and MGMT attention focused on higher revenue biz(dod) ignore key day to day commercial stuff. This coupled with increasing lobbying skills has apparently gotten us where we are now.
OK- retired Boeing engineer here. First, before attacking Boeing for a door plug manufactured in Malaysia, let us all be reminded that the door plug itself had no part in that incident. The problem centered around installation hardware accomplished at Spirit, where missing or loose parts played a part. We will learn more in the coming weeks. Outsourced parts or assemblies have been a part of Boeing (and Airbus BTW) for a very long time. Usually, it is done to attract buyers. No doubt, the Malaysian door is a result of a large purchase from Malaysian Airlines - a longtime Boeing customer. I believe Boeing's problems began with the merger with McConnell Douglas around the year 2000. It was also around this time where Boeings mission statement was revised to put "shareholder value" as its primary goal. One could argue that safe airplanes are good for shareholder value - but most employees did not see this as good news. Also, McConnell Douglas at that time was much more like what Dr. Reich is describing here. Unfortunately, I believe a good bit of the sh_tty culture from McD-D infected Boeing with the merger. In the year 2000 Boeing's Engineers struck for the first time ever, and this proceeded the merger. The engineers concerns were more than pay and benefits - they also were concerned about developments that many thought tended to put airplane safety in the back seat - that "shareholder value" thing. I retired in 2018, and in my long career I never saw any unsafe practices or decisions by Boeing. Despite the merger, and despite everything else. The 737 Max accidents were a total shock to me and probably nearly all Boeing employees past and present. It looks as if it reflects a misguided "shareholder value" way of doing business. One must also factor in the fact that Airbus is more subsidized than Boeing. They can and have underpriced their aircraft to compete, putting extreme financial pressure on Boeing. That in turn can increase the chances of cutting corners in efforts to minimize operating costs.
Several months ago I heard something similar from an engineer who works for a Boeing supplier. She (sister-in-law of a friend) also said the culture of safety started declining after the McD-D merger. I recounted in another post here that a fellow graduate student in late 70s/early 80s told me how his engineer father, with Boeing in the Wichita plant, was required to fly with other engineers and workers, every plane on a long stress test flight, before it could be sold. Your post seems to confirm what I heard more recently about the McD-D connection.
"...his engineer father, with Boeing in the Wichita plant, was required to fly with other engineers and workers, every plane on a long stress test flight, before it could be sold." Hmmm. Flight tests of Boeing commercial aircraft do not occur in Wichita; never have. They all happen in the Seattle area either at Boeing Field (Seattle) for single aisle aircraft or Paine Field (Everett) for wide-bodies. Those flight tests are normally routine of course, and not necessarily terribly long, to shake out any bugs, and to demonstrate to the FAA reps that the airplane is ready for service. There are also customer flights to demonstrate to the customer that his airplane is working to perfection. The only reason why specialist engineers might be on a flight is if there is a problem with something in his/her area of expertise. And that is rare. I once was on a test flight to investigate a reported annoying whistle coming from a passenger door (it was a defective air seal), which was part of my engineering responsibility at the time (pressurized doors). I can tell you that was a fun flight, with touch-and-go's under full thrust from a lightly loaded 767. The only long endurance type test flights with flight test engineers on board would be for first of a kind versions or major changes.
As happens all the time with the press and social media - the nitty gritty details are either ignored or not understood or mis-understood. This is especially true of large complex things like commercial aircraft. While departure of a pressurized door (or door plug in this case) and subsequent rapid decompression on a revenue flight is a very serious thing indeed, incidences or accidents with large commercial aircraft have been a thing ever since we had commercial aircraft. And certainly not just Boeing. Statistically airplane travel is more safe than ever. What will happen here will be changes in the manufacturing process to assure whatever abnormality occurred on the factory floor is not repeated again. Perhaps even a design change to add in a fail-safe feature to prevent upward migration of the door plug in the opening. We should resist kicking Boeing while it is down.
BTW - I will NEVER forgive Boeing for opening a second 787 factory in South Carolina back when that happened. While the other option was to expand the Everett facility. While there were strategic reasons for doing so, the fact is that SC was and is a right-to-work state and Boeing liked that. It was a big middle finger to the machinist union (IAM), which it has been at odds with decades.
I agree we need to be cautious in passing judgement too quickly about the recent incident, but I also think Boeing put themselves in the crosshairs with the MAX fatalities and general lack of oversight. As mentioned in the other reply, perhaps my friend's account was the result of a dad telling sn impressive story to his son, and also the result of the son, perhaps young at the time, selectively remembering a really cool story. Thank you for supplying additional details.
Regarding the South Carolina plant, the South is not union friendly, and I am sure Boeing knew it when they opened a plant there.
I was in Lawrence, KS at the time, so only know what he told us. Could they have traveled to Seattle first? He told us the test flight was required, and we assumed it was from Wichita, but he probably did not mention the origin. He said it was required for anyone who performed major work in designing or building the aircraft. When planes were built in Wichita, were they delivered to another location for final assembly, or were they flown to the customer? This would have been in 1970s or perhaps earlier. Perhaps it was for a specific customer, as you suggested, and our friend was too young at the time to recall additional details? He said his father went to Europe and back on one of these flights. The small group of us who heard this information were impressed with Boeing's committment to safety at that time.
Boeing Wichita (now Spirit) was and still is Boeing's primary fuselage section manufacturer, depending on the airplane model. They supply the lion's share of 737 fuselage sections for instance (and 757's when it was in production), but only the front end (called "section 41") for 747, 767, 777 at least. There are others for other fuselage sections on other models - Japanese companies (MHI, KHI, FHI), and Northrup-Grumman. 787 is carbon fiber, and I do not recall if Wichita is involved in that. They do other items as well, but not wings. Wing main boxes (the spars and everything in between) are done in Washington state exclusively, then and now. The technology for wing primary structure manufacture is well-guarded and stays close to home. And it is amazing. So, Wichita has never produced an entire Boeing commercial airplane - only components. What they do is manufacture fuselage sections and put them on train cars to ship to Washington. Perhaps the details of friend's father's stories of flight tests are just lost in time. That's OK. Just providing context here.
Thank you for sharing your knowledge. I do hope the best for Boeing in the future. Wherever the flight occurred, I am pretty sure it happened. My friend may have assumed the exact location did not matter as much at the time of telling the story as it does now.
MacDonald Douglas was the infection that started the demise in quality.