I can see the argument for insulating the Biden administration but, man, I am SO tired of see that evil man continue to walk free after all the damage he's done to our country. His treasonous actions, above all, should have taken him out of any Presidential, Congressional or any political race. He shouldn't even qualify as dogcatcher in our town! I am SO tired of waiting for justice to be served.
🎯🎯🎯🎯 Irishcoda, My sentiments exactly. Terrorists like MTG, Boebert (who I more accurately call Dumbert) should NEVER have been allowed to run based on their numerous threats and hands on participation in J6. They are uneducated and lack any understanding of our constitution! Same with Thomas & other SCOTUS who should be impeached based ON OUR LAWS!
We should not have the voting public place votes for those who violate the laws and the constitution.
Is the DOJ with the mafia or on the side of the law? It looks like the first option to me.
Also, check the credentials of the prosecutor Garland appointed. That guy's a honey badger, for those having the mistaken impression Garland's been holding off out of cowardice! To me, it >almost< appears that Garland >predicted< ol' Tweety's next move, and ol' Tweety played >right into his hand!< Think about it. There was virtually >no turn around< from the time ol' Tweety announced, and Garland made the appointment. He had a friggin' war crimes and organized crime prosecutor in his pocket "standing by," to use ol' Tweety's words! Not only was it a wise move, Jack Smith is an >extremely< smart choice to appoint. >I'd< really hate to see that kisser coming at me about anything! (The term "stone-cold killer" comes to mind.)
DZK , you are so right. I have also been impressed with the caliber of prosecutor Garland chose, that alone gives me hope. Also, today, and reading you, I have come to your point of view that Garland wasn't played by Trump (on first look I thought he was), Garland was prepared and long anticipated HIS move, obviously having such a "honey badger" (great word) ready to hit the ground running. We can't possibly have a democratic country if Trump AND his allies can walk away with this kind of corruption. We must see justice here.
Right. Wolverines are not to be trifled with, either. But since I'm from OH, I can't credit wolverines! LOL! Actually, I'm not sure a wolverine could survive 3 leapords. Honeybadgers are notorious for taking on lions. Their "kill shot" is going after a lion's - or whatever's - gonads and ripping them off, then tearing out the belly. Notice in the clip how the honeybadger spent a lot of time on its back. That's its attack position - not its submission.
Since you brought it up, Ohioans used to call Michiganders wolverines meaning dirty and barbaric. It dates from the time of the Michigan-Ohio war, or the Toledo war that few know of: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toledo_War
The Michiganders took the insult and began wearing it as a badge of honor. That has >absolutely nothing< to do with the subject at hand. I just felt like talking about it! LOL!
Maybe so, but a special prosecutor wouldn't be necessary had Garland already jailed King Rump. If HM were an "ordinary" citizen, he'd have been in jail long before now. But at least now, if somehow not before, it's crystal clear that the rich and powerful get special handling. Jailing HM Rump may or may not happen, but with all the delay, how many more people is the His Monsterhood fleecing? How many more terrorist is he inspiring? How many more free-election thwarters is he campaigning for successfully in local elections? How many additional angry but naive workers and spouses is he recruiting? How many more crimes is he committing? All on Garland's shoulders. At least if Rump had already been jailed, he'd have to serve a little time. Delay just moves time closer to his being pardoned by--shudder-- the next Republican President. Even if DeathSantis would let him rot, a President is under a lot more pressure from peers. Sweet Marge, for example, would insist her President free her hero. And, of course, the Green Ripper may intervene, so that all of Rump's crime is never punished in history's book but serves through time to inspire more mentally unbalanced creatures. Although he seems to be acting as if supply is unlimited, Garland does not appear to have time on his side.
You seem obviously at odds with your focus. You would love to see the process quicken. Check your body temperature and find out what's got you so rarin' to go. Trump is about to get nailed. Goggle Lawrence McDonald's recent presentation of Jack Smith. Calm down. He's going down like Al Capone, for tax evasion . . . and other things. After the convictions, figure out how our government will have the wherewithal to insist on the peaceful transfer of power, going forward. It's a river we've never crossed before. Will it ever happen again? What's it like on the other side of that river?
I think it made sense to wait til after the midterm. When T is indicted - and it's coming soon - the MAGA faction will be up in arms (probably literally). Their temper tantrum would have disrupted the election so it made sense to wait.
I agree with DZK, and I quite like the reasoning. I worry that we are still dancing to the MAGAt tune, but sometimes you just have to worry more about future-history (that's a stupid turn of expression, forgive me) and cut the legs off the insane arguments your opponent will put forward. Just when I think I can breathe a real sigh of relief, the MAGAts poke their nasty noses into the soup.
WOW! Just viewed this. Yes. While #45 sleeps more fitfully, I will sleep more soundly knowing "Mr. Smith Goes to Washington." Thank you for posting this link!
As a further comment, note that Micellis supports what I've been saying all along about going after ol' Tweety too soon. Like I say earlier, how would you feel if the DOJ moved too fast and had its case thrown out of court over a technicality someone missed because they didn't exercise their full due diligence. Note also this clip was posted just 2 hrs ago, in case there's any question about who's supporting whom.
DZK ; All good information. I agree that most people would tear their hair out one strand at a time if prosecution of tRump and CO. failed on a technicality!
There’s a lot of outrage, rightly so, from our side. But all you hear people talk about are the poor MAGA jackasses who felt unheard. How about if their majority vote was dismantled year after year in the elections via electoral college.
It is time for the Left to be listened to and action taken.
He definitely seems to be a bit exasperated. Fortitude and clear vision, not faith, hope, or optimism - although they definitely help! - is what's required now.
I think the thing about the US justice system many fail to appreciate, is also the virtue for which it was at one time renowned. It's based on the presumption of innocence. Face it. ol' Tweety and his MAGA morons would >gleefully< prosecute citing rumor as proof - just like the wankers tried to do in the '20 election. That all has consequences.
Having said that, people wonder why some get busted and dealt with right away, while others seem to get away with murder, particularly if they have money or influence. It gives the appearance of a 2 tiered justice system.
The simple fact is there are 2 kinds of criminals: smart - or canny, if you prefer - and dumb or obtuse criminals.
The latter get busted and dealt with because they're ignorant, careless, or just plain dumb and easily caught. However, many, many murders - for example - go unsolved. Why? It's because they know what they're doing, are careful, and avoid leaving evidence that can be tied directly to them. Here, I'm talking about simple street crime, and yet it has the appearance of a 2 tiered system, and the cops are blamed for not being able to catch the ones who got away.
In the OH case, one family literally banded together one night, then snuck in and killed >every member< of another family in a custody dispute over a kid. The mother's whole family was killed by the father's family. It has been playing out in the local news in every way that "The Tweety Show" has. Now, the OH family being prosecuted is nowhere as rich or influential as ol' Tweety et al. The difference is in the >scope< of the investigation. It should be clear that ol' Tweety and his antics are an order of magnitude in scope larger than this Shakespearian tragedy throw-back.
I'm including this comment because I honestly think it's easy for us to lose our perspective on what's going on here. ol' Tweety and the Republicans would like Garland to move quickly and sloppily in bringing them to account. That's their best chance of beating anything brought against them. How would you all feel if ol' Tweety got off due to a technicality resulting from somebody's failure to look after their due diligence - huh ‽ Face it. We're >all< armchair attorneys-general here.
That's why I'll remain patient until I see how this all plays out - like I did in the election.
BTW: This is the last of the family to be prosecuted. Every single other member of his family has been convicted.
I like what you say but what I have learned about justice is the golden rule he with the gold rules. Now karma that is whole other thing that cares less about gold. There is even scientific evidence of karma or God (Holy spirit) pick your flavor called entanglement in quantum mechanics. Google it very interesting. Even Einstein got that one wrong.
My "Other" choice is an 'all of the above' for today. I think the appointment of this special prosecutor is simply for an affirmation of the facts of the case.
"A big f 'n deal" would be an understatement on this one. It will take more time but the DOJ undoubtedly feels it must be done to insure that all of the information on ALL of the people involved is correct for indictments. It is no "dodge" by Merrick Garland, as some people seem to think, it's a testament to his desire to be thorough. The investigation is still in his hands, and will be to its end.
Personally, I'm in the "come on man, git it done" camp.
We are spoiled by true crime TV. 42 minutes into every program, all the witnesses have been interviewed, evidence collected and tested, and the perpetrator brought before a judge. Real life doesn't work that way.
Garland was given a Herculean task. Every detail must be locked down to assure an airtight case. We are impatient but must understand this level of meticulousness is s-l-o-w. Trust the process. We're getting there.
Cheryl P., Oh, I agree, absolutely! Lock it down, cross every t, dot every i, etc,etc. I have every confidence AG Garland will do what needs to be done, in the time needed.
There is enough out there to indict the liar now, but the Justice Dept. is overly cautious because he is an ex-president. In a way it plays into the ex because he knows his own guilt and this gives him more time to squirm in the public eye, and that is what he wants, publicity. The one thing that will destroy the fake orange one is to be ignored. He is irrelevant already, but the press (including us) pays attention, making him continuously relevant like the local hog lagoon. So now the best choice (after delaying too long to do anything else) is to hire a quietly competent special prosecutor, do as much as you can without noise, and let the independent guy figure it out. Meanwhile the ex will likely hang himself in the absence of the fawning corrective publicity of Fox News (who are complicit in the crimes and should have a special prosecutor themselves) and, hope against hope, disappear.
Yes, more delays for trump to wiggle out of accountability. Crime, even compromising classified information, is okay, I guess. No problem to sell it. Or store it in my desk at home and work on it there. No indictment even on that case yet?????? Why and How is trump not sitting in jail awaiting judicial proceedings???
In an article from "The Hill," that another on this forum provides a link to, ol' Tweety is quoted as saying:
“I have been going through this for six years — for six years I have been going through this, and I am not going to go through it anymore,” Trump said during an interview with Fox News Digital. “And I hope the Republicans have the courage to fight this.”
Clearly, if the "justice delayed" is getting on people's nerves here, think of the impact it must be having on ol' Tweety. "Chinese water torture?"
It's true: I heard about thousands of cases tfg had going even before he was a candidate! We really need better vetting of our candidates! And how in hell did he have access to our 'most sensitive' classified documents??? Who is keeping inventory? I worked as an inventory control clerk as one of my first jobs, and understand the overall concept. Who is minding the store!???
So so so absolutely True: “we really need better vetting of our candidates!” My mantra forever. There are few jobs with such limited requirements. Even minimum wage in specific positions might ask about and require specific experience and education. And check the application and references. Plus TFG was honest that he was a crook, just in coded language. How naive and ignorant to vote for a known crook. Maybe that sounds judgmental and harsh?
I don't know. The whole election process is judgmental. Be judgmental. I wish more had prior to '16! What buffaloed me is how everyone missed that he's a veteran carnival barking casino cum reality show impresario - a credible CV for PT Barnum! That's shady enough at face-value without getting into the real-estate side of it! I saw that clown a'comin' back when he was still trying to stir shit over Obama's birth certificate. I think the Republicans - at the time - had in mind that he should be a "front man," like cowboy actor McReagan. They hadn't realized they'd created a monster not unlike what the idiot boy created in "The Sorcerer's Apprentice" story. They hadn't counted on his being able to command a very particular following of scandal-rag junkies. Just sayin'.
Yes! We saw the racism way before the election. Half of America was ok with TFG’s slams to Barack Obama years before Trump’s election. And his misogynistic and hateful rants. In fact that was his appeal to those who voted for him. And now he still has a following. For some of those same reasons.
“I saw that clown a'comin' back when he was still trying to stir shit over Obama's birth certificate. I think the Republicans - at the time - had in mind that he should be a "front man," like cowboy actor McReagan”
All of this has taken much too long. Appointing a Special Prosecutor will not change the perception of the MAGA madmen and women. Garland is dreaming if he thinks he can create the image of impartiality with Republican traitors.
That being said, Smith is a better choice to lead this project. He is EXTREMELY experienced and qualified. He is known to be entirely apolitical and very aggressive. Oh, and he wins big cases.
I don't think Garland's trying to >create< an image of impartiality or change the MAGA perception. I think he's doing his version of recusing himself - as many are calling for Thomas to do. Besides, MAGA morons are >not< the public at large.
As for your view of Jack Smith, I think Garland's siccing a mongoose on a cobra - a mongoose that's killed plenty of cobra.
Thank you for the link. Just watched it. Kirschner makes excellent points. My big takeways:
1. We have waited way too long to charge Trump and his cadre of traitors.
2. Selecting Smith makes sense.
3. He (and I) are having "justice fatigue"
4. We are down...but we are not out.
As to Thomas...that situation says more to me about John Roberts. We already knew Thomas was a sexual harasser married to an insurrectionist. The fact that the Chief Justice has not openly disciplined Thomas is one of the many big reasons the Court has lost the faith of the American people.
DZK ; Thank you for sharing the Lawrence O'Donnell and other media. Very interesting. Nice to hear that tfg is having a Tum's moment. Could not happen to a 'nicer guy'.
Robert & Heather, Thank you for these coffee klatch discussions and for providing this platform. For at least one day, let’s make it Thanksgiving…you must take the day off. Pretend you’re back in the olden days of 1985 when mobile phones were not a thing! Step away from the technology & keep your hands in the air!
Remember way back then? (Not you Heather…Not sure you were even around then😄)
The low hanging fruit -- like Giuliani, Navarro, who publicly admit guilt- Giuliani in open court at least 7 times -- Navarro in a friggin' book -- have not been indicted.
My dad was a lifetime prosecutor. He had to run for office, sometimes lost, and when he wasn't the official DA or ADA was appointed by the opposing party as a prosecutor under a state grant. In those days the attorney general didn't have statewide jurisdiction to prosecute so my dad was loaned to several district attorney's offices.
My dad's position was that if the police brought a case, he'd take it to the grand jury. It was up to them, not the prosecutor, to make the indictment. These days, prosecutors have the capacity to write an "information" starting a case.
On Jan 6, the acting US Attorney for DC, Trump appointee Michael Sherwin, went to the capitol, ostensibly as an observer. Soon he was removed, appeared on 60 Minutes. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FoAqWnD7NTI
In full disclosure, Sherwin once was married to my cousin. I have not spoken to either.
As of the date of his appointment Garland had notice that Sherwin should have been called as a material witness before a grand jury,
The jury is out in the Oathkeepers' trial. It's not over, but the tacit defense appears to be jury nullification. Jury nullification refers to a jury's knowing and deliberate rejection of the evidence or refusal to apply the law either because the jury wants to send a message about some social issue that is larger than the case itself, or because the result dictated by law is contrary to the jury's sense of justice or morality.
Apparently the "justice department" is more afraid of nullification than enforcing justice.
Smith will be staying in the Hague in order to recover from a bike accident. I wonder if he will be safer from threats by staying in his home there.? Could get collect RICO evidence we that is in Europe that is in this case?
Charges should have been filed soon after the Navarro book was published. As soon as Giuliani was caught lying to a court. promoting fabricated false evidence.
With respect, so is having a case thrown out of court over a technicality. After all, isn't that what the "law 'n order" types are always brandishing as a political bludgeon? Nerve-wracking as it is, I think Garland want's to hit ol' Tweety with a single "kill shot" - like a sniper does from a blind. That sniper takes careful aim, even as bullets fly around him.
Nobody else was president -- has executive privilege protection. Has sovereign immunity defense in civil cases.
That kill shot analogy doesn't work. It's the reverse. See what I said about the Oathkeepers' cases. At least 948 people have been charged in the Capitol insurrection so far. IMHO it was more important to "justice" to indict Navarro and Giuliani and the phony electors and the Green Bay conspirators than any of them.,
If two or more persons in any State or Territory, or in any place subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, conspire to overthrow, put down, or to destroy by force the Government of the United States, or to levy war against them, or to oppose by force the authority thereof, or by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States, or by force to seize, take, or possess any property of the United States contrary to the authority thereof, they shall each be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both.
I was disappointed when I first heard the news, but hearing about Smith's history, maybe he is the one who can get it done. It may have been a good move on Garlands part. I do hope Trump faces the music for his crimes and gets that smug look off his face. I also hope the Republican party never recovers from supporting such a scourge of the earth.
Off the subject apologetically. I had been of the opinion Biden is too old to run again (I, at age 82 am a bit of an expert in this area) since if elected, Biden would be 86 at the end of his term. I am hopeful his wife will veto another Presidential run. The news yesterday of Biden administration giving a pass to MBS and the other Saudis for assassination and dismembering Kashoggi on the basis of Sovereign Immunity struck me as further evidence Biden should not run again. Recall the famous MBS/Biden fist bump photo and Biden then declaring Saudis would have consequences for stiffing the free world on his request for increased oil production to lower inflation and combat Russia war effort. Consequences? A declaration of immunity from a lawsuit by the Kashoggi bride-to-be? Outrage for this nondefense of embattled journalists the world over seems appropriate.
Felt much, much better after seeing/listening to Lawrence O'Donnell's program on MSNBC on Friday night. His interview with the 3 attorneys that are so knowledgeable about this prosecutor and the entire process we're about to enter.
Johanna ; That was interesting. Neal Katyal was opposed to the appointment of a special prosecutor, because it was more time to spend on getting facts that have been established and known. "Justice delayed : Justice denied." I tend to agree, even though I'm not knowledgeable in the legal arena. Makes sense. We seem to want super heroes who can come in, clear the dust and nail 'em. But is it really necessary? If the issue of partisanship is solved, that may help. But the criminals are a threat and, as we have seen, they will do anything to win.
I think the precedent setting first time a former president will be subjected to the full scope of the judicial system which may result in him being indicted; is fraught with peril, especially now that Trump has declared his candidacy for president in 2024.
At age 76, I well remember Nixon being pardoned by Gerald Ford after he resigned despite all the evidence pointing to his guilt. The prevailing wisdom at the time was that the danger of a criminal president had passed with Nixon's resignation and letting it go was the better option to heal the country. I always thought that the decision NOT to prosecute Nixon was likely part of a deal to get him to resign.
Whether that was the right choice or not is open to debate but I think it is likely that Trump's declaration pushed Garland to action although he seems to have insulated the Biden administration, the DOJ and himself somewhat by appointing a special prosecutor.
It was the same maneuver employed with the Watergate scandal and Nixon although, of course, Nixon was still in power and that led to the infamous Saturday Night Massacre when successive attorneys-general and a special prosecutors were fired. That scenario won't apply this time as the Biden administration wouldn’t touch the situation with a hundred foot pole.
Diana Kilmury, all good points. The sad thing to me is, Watergate and Nixon's criminal doings sort of feels like child's play compared to what the trumpster has done. At least Nixon new how to conduct himself in public and with foreign dignitaries.
Sometimes I think we nonlawyers forget how difficult it may be to get a jury to convict and an argument can be made for the Special Prosecutor for this reason. If Trump is indicted but not convicted, the rule of law may be permanently damaged. And Trumpists may act as though they are bulletproof. Garland said the Special Prosecutor will act without delay.
I’m trying to see the logic in Garland’s choice. I would feel better if this decision was announced on January 7. So now we can’t make him testify, we have had all these hearings and he is not yet indicted, the Republicans are about to take over and now Hunter Biden will be the total focus?
And we expect this will inspire our young people to vote?
Thank you, thank you, thank you. I came out of one of the most traumatic episodes of my life and found you and your writings. It’s complicated to write about, but simple to give thanks where it is deserved. Glad I have access to your constant communique. It’s worth the $.
I can see the argument for insulating the Biden administration but, man, I am SO tired of see that evil man continue to walk free after all the damage he's done to our country. His treasonous actions, above all, should have taken him out of any Presidential, Congressional or any political race. He shouldn't even qualify as dogcatcher in our town! I am SO tired of waiting for justice to be served.
🎯🎯🎯🎯 Irishcoda, My sentiments exactly. Terrorists like MTG, Boebert (who I more accurately call Dumbert) should NEVER have been allowed to run based on their numerous threats and hands on participation in J6. They are uneducated and lack any understanding of our constitution! Same with Thomas & other SCOTUS who should be impeached based ON OUR LAWS!
We should not have the voting public place votes for those who violate the laws and the constitution.
Is the DOJ with the mafia or on the side of the law? It looks like the first option to me.
About the DOJ, it's a RICO-type case. RICO cases are about busting organized crime, and everything necessary to accomplish that. Just sayin'.
Also, check the credentials of the prosecutor Garland appointed. That guy's a honey badger, for those having the mistaken impression Garland's been holding off out of cowardice! To me, it >almost< appears that Garland >predicted< ol' Tweety's next move, and ol' Tweety played >right into his hand!< Think about it. There was virtually >no turn around< from the time ol' Tweety announced, and Garland made the appointment. He had a friggin' war crimes and organized crime prosecutor in his pocket "standing by," to use ol' Tweety's words! Not only was it a wise move, Jack Smith is an >extremely< smart choice to appoint. >I'd< really hate to see that kisser coming at me about anything! (The term "stone-cold killer" comes to mind.)
AN UPDATE: https://youtu.be/B1hVxMDQLEE
AND A LITTLE MORE PERSPECTIVE: https://youtu.be/yuXt4tK_Xj4
OBSERVATION ON TIMING: https://youtu.be/r_g1Bk36uuE
Another insight from a commentator whose views I respect, on the selection of Jack Smith: https://youtu.be/ZkgL5cVBeFI
DZK , you are so right. I have also been impressed with the caliber of prosecutor Garland chose, that alone gives me hope. Also, today, and reading you, I have come to your point of view that Garland wasn't played by Trump (on first look I thought he was), Garland was prepared and long anticipated HIS move, obviously having such a "honey badger" (great word) ready to hit the ground running. We can't possibly have a democratic country if Trump AND his allies can walk away with this kind of corruption. We must see justice here.
FYI: A honey badger in action: https://youtu.be/Pu4XSYMRcfI
(It's a real thing!)
A honey badger reminds me of a wolverine. Tough stuff!
Right. Wolverines are not to be trifled with, either. But since I'm from OH, I can't credit wolverines! LOL! Actually, I'm not sure a wolverine could survive 3 leapords. Honeybadgers are notorious for taking on lions. Their "kill shot" is going after a lion's - or whatever's - gonads and ripping them off, then tearing out the belly. Notice in the clip how the honeybadger spent a lot of time on its back. That's its attack position - not its submission.
Since you brought it up, Ohioans used to call Michiganders wolverines meaning dirty and barbaric. It dates from the time of the Michigan-Ohio war, or the Toledo war that few know of: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toledo_War
The Michiganders took the insult and began wearing it as a badge of honor. That has >absolutely nothing< to do with the subject at hand. I just felt like talking about it! LOL!
It definitely does. Although taxonomy unrelated they usually remind people of skunks, and wolverines mostly because of the stink!
Thanks for this clip DZK. I enjoyed it immensely. A great comparison for Jack Smith.
Seen one in Montana. They are real.
Maybe so, but a special prosecutor wouldn't be necessary had Garland already jailed King Rump. If HM were an "ordinary" citizen, he'd have been in jail long before now. But at least now, if somehow not before, it's crystal clear that the rich and powerful get special handling. Jailing HM Rump may or may not happen, but with all the delay, how many more people is the His Monsterhood fleecing? How many more terrorist is he inspiring? How many more free-election thwarters is he campaigning for successfully in local elections? How many additional angry but naive workers and spouses is he recruiting? How many more crimes is he committing? All on Garland's shoulders. At least if Rump had already been jailed, he'd have to serve a little time. Delay just moves time closer to his being pardoned by--shudder-- the next Republican President. Even if DeathSantis would let him rot, a President is under a lot more pressure from peers. Sweet Marge, for example, would insist her President free her hero. And, of course, the Green Ripper may intervene, so that all of Rump's crime is never punished in history's book but serves through time to inspire more mentally unbalanced creatures. Although he seems to be acting as if supply is unlimited, Garland does not appear to have time on his side.
Fair considerations all. That's >exactly< why he appointed Smith - so he can get-on with looking at that other stuff.
You seem obviously at odds with your focus. You would love to see the process quicken. Check your body temperature and find out what's got you so rarin' to go. Trump is about to get nailed. Goggle Lawrence McDonald's recent presentation of Jack Smith. Calm down. He's going down like Al Capone, for tax evasion . . . and other things. After the convictions, figure out how our government will have the wherewithal to insist on the peaceful transfer of power, going forward. It's a river we've never crossed before. Will it ever happen again? What's it like on the other side of that river?
I think it made sense to wait til after the midterm. When T is indicted - and it's coming soon - the MAGA faction will be up in arms (probably literally). Their temper tantrum would have disrupted the election so it made sense to wait.
I agree with DZK, and I quite like the reasoning. I worry that we are still dancing to the MAGAt tune, but sometimes you just have to worry more about future-history (that's a stupid turn of expression, forgive me) and cut the legs off the insane arguments your opponent will put forward. Just when I think I can breathe a real sigh of relief, the MAGAts poke their nasty noses into the soup.
Great image with the nasty soupy noses. Campbell's tomato bisque!
DZK I want to believe this, but it must materialize BEFORE these lunatics step into office. Much damage has been done with this outrageous delay.
DZK—Garland-Smith doubters might want to reconsider after seeing Lawrence O'Donnell and guest experts discuss prospects: https://www.msnbc.com/the-last-word/watch/lawrence-trump-will-lose-more-sleep-because-of-doj-special-prosecutor-154269253791
WOW! Just viewed this. Yes. While #45 sleeps more fitfully, I will sleep more soundly knowing "Mr. Smith Goes to Washington." Thank you for posting this link!
Thanks DZK. That’s more than we usually hear. And it’s what we’re waiting for.
DZK ; My impression too. Let's see what happens......
We need an ounce of hope out here!! 😬
An update on Jack Smith: https://youtu.be/Vmcx0-1zb80
I am not as patient as you, but I do agree those Meicellas brothers have excellent, well-reasoned discussions of all this. Gives one hope.
DZK ; Thank you for this!
As a further comment, note that Micellis supports what I've been saying all along about going after ol' Tweety too soon. Like I say earlier, how would you feel if the DOJ moved too fast and had its case thrown out of court over a technicality someone missed because they didn't exercise their full due diligence. Note also this clip was posted just 2 hrs ago, in case there's any question about who's supporting whom.
DZK ; All good information. I agree that most people would tear their hair out one strand at a time if prosecution of tRump and CO. failed on a technicality!
I'll agree this much: Smith was a good choice.
LOL
Another assessment of Jack Smith: https://youtu.be/7rRCxhQ4GtE
There’s a lot of outrage, rightly so, from our side. But all you hear people talk about are the poor MAGA jackasses who felt unheard. How about if their majority vote was dismantled year after year in the elections via electoral college.
It is time for the Left to be listened to and action taken.
He definitely seems to be a bit exasperated. Fortitude and clear vision, not faith, hope, or optimism - although they definitely help! - is what's required now.
The man assessing Bunkerboy prosecuted WAR CRIMINALS for years! I think donny's a good match, being a war criminal himself.
I think the thing about the US justice system many fail to appreciate, is also the virtue for which it was at one time renowned. It's based on the presumption of innocence. Face it. ol' Tweety and his MAGA morons would >gleefully< prosecute citing rumor as proof - just like the wankers tried to do in the '20 election. That all has consequences.
Having said that, people wonder why some get busted and dealt with right away, while others seem to get away with murder, particularly if they have money or influence. It gives the appearance of a 2 tiered justice system.
The simple fact is there are 2 kinds of criminals: smart - or canny, if you prefer - and dumb or obtuse criminals.
The latter get busted and dealt with because they're ignorant, careless, or just plain dumb and easily caught. However, many, many murders - for example - go unsolved. Why? It's because they know what they're doing, are careful, and avoid leaving evidence that can be tied directly to them. Here, I'm talking about simple street crime, and yet it has the appearance of a 2 tiered system, and the cops are blamed for not being able to catch the ones who got away.
After 6 years, a case in Southern OH (https://www.insideedition.com/the-rhoden-family-massacre-everything-we-know-about-case-of-8-relatives-murdered-allegedly-by-77803 ) is looking like it's finally coming to an end. (https://www.yahoo.com/now/pike-county-trial-rhoden-family-131656576.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly9kdWNrZHVja2dvLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAHNkR6plzecp-2-0sw8Z0yIJ2Bt7G7PHS6Vy_3QaPqw9W0wdz-uY3PBKjkYV2et7_5FZViDJ9uQ6b6DHuPhhksOwmvrhsfY5cR8Kw1D6vXKXbgLNE13f0K0NDD83v6lkH8JhMXuFyTbg-Mn1cfyMjYEXcXsv9ae1lo9oQIdykHYn ) 6 years compared to what's happening regarding 1/6 and the relatively recent Mar-A-Lago festivities.
In the OH case, one family literally banded together one night, then snuck in and killed >every member< of another family in a custody dispute over a kid. The mother's whole family was killed by the father's family. It has been playing out in the local news in every way that "The Tweety Show" has. Now, the OH family being prosecuted is nowhere as rich or influential as ol' Tweety et al. The difference is in the >scope< of the investigation. It should be clear that ol' Tweety and his antics are an order of magnitude in scope larger than this Shakespearian tragedy throw-back.
I'm including this comment because I honestly think it's easy for us to lose our perspective on what's going on here. ol' Tweety and the Republicans would like Garland to move quickly and sloppily in bringing them to account. That's their best chance of beating anything brought against them. How would you all feel if ol' Tweety got off due to a technicality resulting from somebody's failure to look after their due diligence - huh ‽ Face it. We're >all< armchair attorneys-general here.
That's why I'll remain patient until I see how this all plays out - like I did in the election.
BTW: This is the last of the family to be prosecuted. Every single other member of his family has been convicted.
I like what you say but what I have learned about justice is the golden rule he with the gold rules. Now karma that is whole other thing that cares less about gold. There is even scientific evidence of karma or God (Holy spirit) pick your flavor called entanglement in quantum mechanics. Google it very interesting. Even Einstein got that one wrong.
Or in the vernacular: "What goes around comes around."
Sorry, but we want him Dead and Gone. NOW.
Good
My "Other" choice is an 'all of the above' for today. I think the appointment of this special prosecutor is simply for an affirmation of the facts of the case.
"A big f 'n deal" would be an understatement on this one. It will take more time but the DOJ undoubtedly feels it must be done to insure that all of the information on ALL of the people involved is correct for indictments. It is no "dodge" by Merrick Garland, as some people seem to think, it's a testament to his desire to be thorough. The investigation is still in his hands, and will be to its end.
Personally, I'm in the "come on man, git it done" camp.
High fives for Robert and Heather today.
DW
We are spoiled by true crime TV. 42 minutes into every program, all the witnesses have been interviewed, evidence collected and tested, and the perpetrator brought before a judge. Real life doesn't work that way.
Garland was given a Herculean task. Every detail must be locked down to assure an airtight case. We are impatient but must understand this level of meticulousness is s-l-o-w. Trust the process. We're getting there.
Cheryl P., Oh, I agree, absolutely! Lock it down, cross every t, dot every i, etc,etc. I have every confidence AG Garland will do what needs to be done, in the time needed.
DW
Bet they're sad they didn't give him a hearing when he was nominated for the Supreme Court.
Yes and see my reply above
Book ‘em Danno.
This former war crimes prosecutor should help defray any illusion of impropriety, especially since tRump has throw his mini mega cap in the ring.
Hope they start selling popcorn or junior mints soon, this show is getting repetitive!
If our freedom was not on the line, along with our children's futures, I would suggest some No doze pills.
There is enough out there to indict the liar now, but the Justice Dept. is overly cautious because he is an ex-president. In a way it plays into the ex because he knows his own guilt and this gives him more time to squirm in the public eye, and that is what he wants, publicity. The one thing that will destroy the fake orange one is to be ignored. He is irrelevant already, but the press (including us) pays attention, making him continuously relevant like the local hog lagoon. So now the best choice (after delaying too long to do anything else) is to hire a quietly competent special prosecutor, do as much as you can without noise, and let the independent guy figure it out. Meanwhile the ex will likely hang himself in the absence of the fawning corrective publicity of Fox News (who are complicit in the crimes and should have a special prosecutor themselves) and, hope against hope, disappear.
Yes, more delays for trump to wiggle out of accountability. Crime, even compromising classified information, is okay, I guess. No problem to sell it. Or store it in my desk at home and work on it there. No indictment even on that case yet?????? Why and How is trump not sitting in jail awaiting judicial proceedings???
In an article from "The Hill," that another on this forum provides a link to, ol' Tweety is quoted as saying:
“I have been going through this for six years — for six years I have been going through this, and I am not going to go through it anymore,” Trump said during an interview with Fox News Digital. “And I hope the Republicans have the courage to fight this.”
Clearly, if the "justice delayed" is getting on people's nerves here, think of the impact it must be having on ol' Tweety. "Chinese water torture?"
I like the perspective you bring on ol' Tweety's legal position. You and I see eye-to-eye on all of this.
It's true: I heard about thousands of cases tfg had going even before he was a candidate! We really need better vetting of our candidates! And how in hell did he have access to our 'most sensitive' classified documents??? Who is keeping inventory? I worked as an inventory control clerk as one of my first jobs, and understand the overall concept. Who is minding the store!???
Well, at the time, it appears "the fox was guarding the henhouse!"
So so so absolutely True: “we really need better vetting of our candidates!” My mantra forever. There are few jobs with such limited requirements. Even minimum wage in specific positions might ask about and require specific experience and education. And check the application and references. Plus TFG was honest that he was a crook, just in coded language. How naive and ignorant to vote for a known crook. Maybe that sounds judgmental and harsh?
I don't know. The whole election process is judgmental. Be judgmental. I wish more had prior to '16! What buffaloed me is how everyone missed that he's a veteran carnival barking casino cum reality show impresario - a credible CV for PT Barnum! That's shady enough at face-value without getting into the real-estate side of it! I saw that clown a'comin' back when he was still trying to stir shit over Obama's birth certificate. I think the Republicans - at the time - had in mind that he should be a "front man," like cowboy actor McReagan. They hadn't realized they'd created a monster not unlike what the idiot boy created in "The Sorcerer's Apprentice" story. They hadn't counted on his being able to command a very particular following of scandal-rag junkies. Just sayin'.
Yes! We saw the racism way before the election. Half of America was ok with TFG’s slams to Barack Obama years before Trump’s election. And his misogynistic and hateful rants. In fact that was his appeal to those who voted for him. And now he still has a following. For some of those same reasons.
“I saw that clown a'comin' back when he was still trying to stir shit over Obama's birth certificate. I think the Republicans - at the time - had in mind that he should be a "front man," like cowboy actor McReagan”
Let's hope!
All of this has taken much too long. Appointing a Special Prosecutor will not change the perception of the MAGA madmen and women. Garland is dreaming if he thinks he can create the image of impartiality with Republican traitors.
That being said, Smith is a better choice to lead this project. He is EXTREMELY experienced and qualified. He is known to be entirely apolitical and very aggressive. Oh, and he wins big cases.
I don't think Garland's trying to >create< an image of impartiality or change the MAGA perception. I think he's doing his version of recusing himself - as many are calling for Thomas to do. Besides, MAGA morons are >not< the public at large.
As for your view of Jack Smith, I think Garland's siccing a mongoose on a cobra - a mongoose that's killed plenty of cobra.
Although this guy's more in your camp on the issue, he bothers to bring up my point about Thomas: https://youtu.be/yuXt4tK_Xj4
Thank you for the link. Just watched it. Kirschner makes excellent points. My big takeways:
1. We have waited way too long to charge Trump and his cadre of traitors.
2. Selecting Smith makes sense.
3. He (and I) are having "justice fatigue"
4. We are down...but we are not out.
As to Thomas...that situation says more to me about John Roberts. We already knew Thomas was a sexual harasser married to an insurrectionist. The fact that the Chief Justice has not openly disciplined Thomas is one of the many big reasons the Court has lost the faith of the American people.
Just keep in mind, fortitude and a clear vision is more reliable than optimism.
Thank you! “Justice Matters!
DZK ; Thank you for sharing the Lawrence O'Donnell and other media. Very interesting. Nice to hear that tfg is having a Tum's moment. Could not happen to a 'nicer guy'.
Bill Alstrom ; Many of those qualities were attributed to Robert Mueller.
Robert & Heather, Thank you for these coffee klatch discussions and for providing this platform. For at least one day, let’s make it Thanksgiving…you must take the day off. Pretend you’re back in the olden days of 1985 when mobile phones were not a thing! Step away from the technology & keep your hands in the air!
Remember way back then? (Not you Heather…Not sure you were even around then😄)
I believe AG Garland is playing chess while ‘the former guy’ is playing checkers.
I voted "other".
The low hanging fruit -- like Giuliani, Navarro, who publicly admit guilt- Giuliani in open court at least 7 times -- Navarro in a friggin' book -- have not been indicted.
My dad was a lifetime prosecutor. He had to run for office, sometimes lost, and when he wasn't the official DA or ADA was appointed by the opposing party as a prosecutor under a state grant. In those days the attorney general didn't have statewide jurisdiction to prosecute so my dad was loaned to several district attorney's offices.
My dad's position was that if the police brought a case, he'd take it to the grand jury. It was up to them, not the prosecutor, to make the indictment. These days, prosecutors have the capacity to write an "information" starting a case.
On Jan 6, the acting US Attorney for DC, Trump appointee Michael Sherwin, went to the capitol, ostensibly as an observer. Soon he was removed, appeared on 60 Minutes. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FoAqWnD7NTI
In full disclosure, Sherwin once was married to my cousin. I have not spoken to either.
As of the date of his appointment Garland had notice that Sherwin should have been called as a material witness before a grand jury,
The jury is out in the Oathkeepers' trial. It's not over, but the tacit defense appears to be jury nullification. Jury nullification refers to a jury's knowing and deliberate rejection of the evidence or refusal to apply the law either because the jury wants to send a message about some social issue that is larger than the case itself, or because the result dictated by law is contrary to the jury's sense of justice or morality.
Apparently the "justice department" is more afraid of nullification than enforcing justice.
I fear they've all received threats.
Smith will be staying in the Hague in order to recover from a bike accident. I wonder if he will be safer from threats by staying in his home there.? Could get collect RICO evidence we that is in Europe that is in this case?
Not surprising.
Good start but could you please take your point out to it’s logical conclusion, I am looking for the punchline
Justice delayed is justice denied.
Charges should have been filed soon after the Navarro book was published. As soon as Giuliani was caught lying to a court. promoting fabricated false evidence.
Mar a Lago case is open and shut.https://finance.yahoo.com/video/legal-expert-mar-lago-docs-032701954.html
With respect, so is having a case thrown out of court over a technicality. After all, isn't that what the "law 'n order" types are always brandishing as a political bludgeon? Nerve-wracking as it is, I think Garland want's to hit ol' Tweety with a single "kill shot" - like a sniper does from a blind. That sniper takes careful aim, even as bullets fly around him.
Distinguish between Trump and everybody else.
Nobody else was president -- has executive privilege protection. Has sovereign immunity defense in civil cases.
That kill shot analogy doesn't work. It's the reverse. See what I said about the Oathkeepers' cases. At least 948 people have been charged in the Capitol insurrection so far. IMHO it was more important to "justice" to indict Navarro and Giuliani and the phony electors and the Green Bay conspirators than any of them.,
Perhaps you're right, but: https://youtu.be/B1hVxMDQLEE
Trump doesn't ADMIT it. Is in denial.
Navarro, Giuliani et al are PROUD if it.
18 U.S. Code § 2384 - Seditious conspiracy
If two or more persons in any State or Territory, or in any place subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, conspire to overthrow, put down, or to destroy by force the Government of the United States, or to levy war against them, or to oppose by force the authority thereof, or by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States, or by force to seize, take, or possess any property of the United States contrary to the authority thereof, they shall each be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both.
(June 25, 1948, ch. 645, 62 Stat. 808; July 24, 1956, ch. 678, § 1, 70 Stat. 623; Pub. L. 103–322, title XXXIII, § 330016(1)(N), Sept. 13, 1994, 108 Stat. 2148.)
I was disappointed when I first heard the news, but hearing about Smith's history, maybe he is the one who can get it done. It may have been a good move on Garlands part. I do hope Trump faces the music for his crimes and gets that smug look off his face. I also hope the Republican party never recovers from supporting such a scourge of the earth.
Off the subject apologetically. I had been of the opinion Biden is too old to run again (I, at age 82 am a bit of an expert in this area) since if elected, Biden would be 86 at the end of his term. I am hopeful his wife will veto another Presidential run. The news yesterday of Biden administration giving a pass to MBS and the other Saudis for assassination and dismembering Kashoggi on the basis of Sovereign Immunity struck me as further evidence Biden should not run again. Recall the famous MBS/Biden fist bump photo and Biden then declaring Saudis would have consequences for stiffing the free world on his request for increased oil production to lower inflation and combat Russia war effort. Consequences? A declaration of immunity from a lawsuit by the Kashoggi bride-to-be? Outrage for this nondefense of embattled journalists the world over seems appropriate.
Felt much, much better after seeing/listening to Lawrence O'Donnell's program on MSNBC on Friday night. His interview with the 3 attorneys that are so knowledgeable about this prosecutor and the entire process we're about to enter.
Johanna ; That was interesting. Neal Katyal was opposed to the appointment of a special prosecutor, because it was more time to spend on getting facts that have been established and known. "Justice delayed : Justice denied." I tend to agree, even though I'm not knowledgeable in the legal arena. Makes sense. We seem to want super heroes who can come in, clear the dust and nail 'em. But is it really necessary? If the issue of partisanship is solved, that may help. But the criminals are a threat and, as we have seen, they will do anything to win.
That very persuasive show: https://www.msnbc.com/the-last-word/watch/lawrence-trump-will-lose-more-sleep-because-of-doj-special-prosecutor-154269253791
I think the precedent setting first time a former president will be subjected to the full scope of the judicial system which may result in him being indicted; is fraught with peril, especially now that Trump has declared his candidacy for president in 2024.
At age 76, I well remember Nixon being pardoned by Gerald Ford after he resigned despite all the evidence pointing to his guilt. The prevailing wisdom at the time was that the danger of a criminal president had passed with Nixon's resignation and letting it go was the better option to heal the country. I always thought that the decision NOT to prosecute Nixon was likely part of a deal to get him to resign.
Whether that was the right choice or not is open to debate but I think it is likely that Trump's declaration pushed Garland to action although he seems to have insulated the Biden administration, the DOJ and himself somewhat by appointing a special prosecutor.
It was the same maneuver employed with the Watergate scandal and Nixon although, of course, Nixon was still in power and that led to the infamous Saturday Night Massacre when successive attorneys-general and a special prosecutors were fired. That scenario won't apply this time as the Biden administration wouldn’t touch the situation with a hundred foot pole.
Diana Kilmury, all good points. The sad thing to me is, Watergate and Nixon's criminal doings sort of feels like child's play compared to what the trumpster has done. At least Nixon new how to conduct himself in public and with foreign dignitaries.
I most fervently agree. Well said.
Sometimes I think we nonlawyers forget how difficult it may be to get a jury to convict and an argument can be made for the Special Prosecutor for this reason. If Trump is indicted but not convicted, the rule of law may be permanently damaged. And Trumpists may act as though they are bulletproof. Garland said the Special Prosecutor will act without delay.
I’m trying to see the logic in Garland’s choice. I would feel better if this decision was announced on January 7. So now we can’t make him testify, we have had all these hearings and he is not yet indicted, the Republicans are about to take over and now Hunter Biden will be the total focus?
And we expect this will inspire our young people to vote?
Thank you, thank you, thank you. I came out of one of the most traumatic episodes of my life and found you and your writings. It’s complicated to write about, but simple to give thanks where it is deserved. Glad I have access to your constant communique. It’s worth the $.