We have to volunteer to get the vote out this time-- because a full third of the electorate didn't vote in 2020, because Republicans are organized in voter suppression across the country, because losing this next election will send America into a fascist state, because many Americans today do not see this and do not understand the fear, hunger, hate, danger, loss of joy and well being such a structure is.
Imagine your neighbor reporting you to the authorities for seeking an abortion, for teaching science or trying to stop global warming, for having a foreign houseguest, for having a gay son or daughter or for being LGBTQ+, etc.
THAT'S WHAT'S COMING IF WE DON'T VOTE REPUBLICANS OUT!!!
It’s terrifying, watching from Australia. We have some serious, serious problems but we have compulsory voting and an independent commission that sets electoral boundaries. Our High Court is, prosaically, our highest Court and it’s largely left alone to fulfill its function as the third branch of government.
You’re our historical democratic model, our constitution is largely based on yours. How have you fallen into such disarray, teetering on the brink of autocracy?
I am just starting religion bashing. It is one thing to argue what is moral based on science. But, it is something else to base it on religious dogma. Based on science, statements can usually be discussed and resolved based on common moral understanding. Based on dogma, only death or persecution of one faction or the other can resolve difference.
But even with science, there must be a rule to let differences of opinion remain unresolved until further study can enlighten some matters. And sometimes common morals are not common. For instance today as Dr. Reich informs, some people think that authoritian rule is preferable to democracy. They actually prefer that society be rulled by force from the top down, and that the top is determined by whoever is strong or clever enough to claim that title. They prefer obedience to the furher to the rule of law and justice. And the are not pursuaded by fact or logic.
The notion of top down rule, authoritarianism, exists or applies only when the people or a faction, agrees with the objectives of the authoritarian.
For instance MAGAts see in Trump, their savior, his is their avatar, their icon and believe that he is they and they are him, so they defend and promote Trump as they would themselves.
Hitler had command over the mind of der Deutsches Volk, because he was they and they were him.
Even religions are authoritarian, Bible or Quran you will find nothing in them that is optional, or maybe, of if you feel like it.
"They actually prefer that society be ruled by force from the top down."
That's because they think they will be unaffected, that the impact will only be felt by "those people," by the "other," the "not us." By the time they realize the rulers' definition of "us" has shrunk to where they are no longer "one of us," it's too late.
Ted, you are right about people thinking they want to be ruled from top down, that is until they are caught in the insanity of such a system and are accused of something or someone in their own family is. The top down system only works for the haves and those have nots who can get into the good graces of the haves. Totalitarian systems do great harm to the people, yet they keep springing up. It seems human beings have really short memories.
I think we should call out the religious hypocrisy as much as we can. To claim to be pro-life even to embryos, but to go to war and to do nothing to stop mass killings of our children and others in public places would be laughable if only it wasn't so horrifying. There are only a few religious groups that live what they preach- Quakers come to mind.
isn't it remarkably easy for government to forget who is the real boss here? We the People. without our taxes and our votes, they are nothing! Like they used to say in Chicago VOTE BLUE (early and often!😩
Blindly voting blue is no longer enough. Find out who is funding each of your candidates of choice. There are those trying to slip into power who are anything but supporters of a democracy!
To what you have listed, I would add lack of attention and emphasis on education! Who are the blind impassioned followers of the zealots? Many uneducated people who lack historical context and understanding!
Kristen, Democracy will win out. We are fighting hard to rid our government of the right-wing crazies that seem to have taken over. It is embarrassing for the majority of us that the world sees these absolute idiots and wonder what has happened to America. We will set the ship right and continue to be the Democracy all of us have grown up with!!
They vote in Russia, Hungary, Haiti, Africa, Iran and so on, and none of those are Democracies.. I hope, it is wishful thinking that Democracies win out, but the sad fact is that Democracy is fragile, and contains within it, the tools of it's own destruction.
The enemies of Democracy, use the freedoms of democracy to destroy it.
The problem is authoritarian ideologies, and religion is an ideology. Ideologies that proclaim that there is only one truth, one way.. theirs. Be it Bolshevism, Capitalism, Christianity, or Islam all lead to authoritarianism.
Voting is a significant aspect of democracy. And it’s not to be diminished simply because it’s used in countries that are struggling to keep their democracies growing and or a float..
USA American anti-intellectualism & worship of the almighty dollar. Unjust States of Amerikkka (USA) is the seat of Mammonism. It's already an autocracy ruled by the 1% & the military industrial complex thanks to Milton Friedman, von Hayek, von Mises, Ayn Rand, & everybody else who believes in the "invisible hand of the market". Insatiable greed is the grease of USA's laissez-faire capitalist autocracy. USA is dead & just waiting to be embalmed, cremated, & buried in an urn next to Ivana Trump's on the first hole of Bedminster Golf Club. The world will be a better place once the now white supremacist theocratic Christofascist colonial settler empire destroys itself & disappears from the face of Earth.
Are you Chinese? Posting from the PRC? Sure do sound like you are,
How about runaway Capitalism in China. Same problem there as here, only Chinese laborer are kept in factories like slaves. They even had to string nets between buildings to keep the workers from committing suicide.
Not posting from the PRC, with its state-supported capitalist system thanks to Deng Xiao-Ping ("Little Bottles"). Runaway Capitalism has captured the entire world because the insatiably greedy exist only to generate profits (blurted out by Liz Truss at CPAC last week) for themselves. Billionaires (like Truss's successor Sunak & wife, like Musk & Bezos, like the British royal family, like most nations' rulers) should not exist at any time anywhere. Wage slave laborers exist in all nation states because economics drives most human behavior, not human rights or freedom or just moral codes. PRC peons are better off now than before Mao, but it's still an abominable place. Used to be married to a Shanghainese. Hated Shanghai. Wretched place back in 1989.
I actually agree with you and I did the first time, but your ire was completely directed towards the U.S.A.
I am not anti Capitalist, whatever Capitalism means.It just needs to be reigned in, regulated, disciplined, punished when it goes astray.
One thing the PRC does that I like is that it puniishes (executes) CEO's and owners when they defraud, poison and pollute.
In America when, and more importantly, if they are caught and if they are punished, it is only
with a fine, which they deduct as the cost of doing business, and I wouldn't be surprised if they took the fine as a tax deduction, like they do the billions they spend on advertising.
The states initially had charter laws that included a death penalty, mostly of 50 years, and to renew they had to prove they were operating in the public interest, but John D Rockefeller didn't like that, so he advertised that he would move his corporation to the state with the best charter. New Jersey won and he set up Standard Oil of NJ, Ohio soon followed with SOHIO.
Then Delaware beat them all and is now the home of 600 plus corporations,.
Then in 1919 the Michigan Supreme Court ruled that the only purpose of a corporation (Dodge v Ford) was to make a profit for the shareholder, and that is what is taught in business schools, and has never been challenged so that is the ethos of American commerce.
The Upside, for other living creatures besides mammals, is that humankind, insatiable appetites and greed, stupidity, gullibility and beliefs are resulting in humans committing slow specicicide, our activities are killing us and other living things, from plastic pollution, we eat the equivalent of a credit card of plastic a day, to global warming, toss in religious wars, madmen like Putin,Trump, Xi, Un, HAMAS, Netanyahu and you have the end of all things, but it want be overnight, no armeggedon, it will be slow and gradual and we won't notice, until we drop dead, faster than being replaced.
Dead on. The "invisible hand of the market" is not the market itself, but the forces operating within its structure. Trading values to better our individual position is the "invisible hand". The market is man-made to manage this "invisible" force. -- to ensure its fairness, honesty, and peaceful function. The market we live under today is the product of those who wish to skew its favor toward the wealthy. The creation of wealth is good. The inequitable distribution of said wealth is the crime we see all around us. Economists like Friedman and von Hayek are largely complicit.
And your last sentence cannot come to pass soon enough!
Manipulation from ruthless politicians seeking power to protect privileges of today's version of the landed gentry! So, welcome to the new land of mythical corruption...
Tyranny of the minority. There are the few who have not just figured out how to wedge the rule of law between governance, their are the people willing to do it with the hubris that somehow they’re going to escape this whole situation unscathed.
Even the most well-meaning law or process can be manipulated if one is willing to step aside from ethics, morals, and twist it hard enough.
It’s quite frightening from here as well, and we can only hope that the majority stand up and do what’s needed to right this democracy because I don’t know if we can depend on the rule of law anymore.
I feel more sad (and frustrated) than hopeless.
A huge disadvantage is the several generations that haven’t seen the hardship that the elders have, and the resulting mis-modeling of what’s actually happening, leading to a minimizing of its potential effects on their future.
The Evangelicals and radical catholics have been working on this for roughly 50 years, ever since Roe vs wade was decided, the misogynistic patriarchal old men have been pouring money into making us a theocracy.
Make that 60 years. What you say is all well documented in the words of the movement's leaders. This "under the radar" plan is entirely unknown to most people, but our nation today is probably in greater danger from this social cancer than from Wall Street. SCOTUS is now a power center for the hard Christian right, and it seems they are dead set on getting their Theocracy no matter what it does to our pluralistic Democracy, or our Constitution.
Just don’t arrive by boat Renee. We have a scandalous, inhumane system of offshore immigration detention for asylum seekers that we’ve exported to England in the form of the ‘Rwanda Solution’. Our two major parties are equally culpable in maintaining it, at a huge cost. You may recall Trump said something along the lines of “These guys are worse than us”, which tells you all you need to know.
Well, if I did, I wouldn't arrive by boat LOL. I hate cruise ships with a passion and I'm not too fond of being on the ocean. Hate being cooped up cheek by jowl with all those people in one place! Of course, if it came to emigrating I would really really research a place! Don't wish to go from the frying pan into the fire! Interesting what you say.
It’s baked in to us as a civic responsibility and it’s fun. We have sausage sizzles, cake stalls, best dog at the polling booth competitions, and such. I think we had around 92 per cent turnout at the last federal election, which blessedly saw the end of nine years of conservative rule.
thank you so much, Kristen. what a great idea to make it a holiday and something to be celebrated. now the next question is how to get folks to vote correctly? (he said facetiously). i suppose education could help that along. here's a great educational source:
What if . . . we all, as individuals, agree to partner in conversation with one other person who is not voting as we are. Being willing to find common ground and honestly accepting that both sides are equally willing to change positions in relation to their respective priorities. Surely all voters will be strengthened in the aftermath of this election to follow through with wise intentions if we are able to serve each other in this way.
If only! Sad to say that there are people on both sides who don’t see your way of thinking. If many on the MAGA right really understand that many others on the left believe that corporations and the 1% have too much power, then we might have a starting point to begin a true dialogue. But when they see some on the left proposing eliminating police or calling everyone racists, then there is no promise for any dialogue. As I’ve said countless times, neither the far right nor the far left have the wellbeing of most of us in mind.
This is it. Thank you Bobbie. Small actions like parting with just one other person or people that you come in contact with that are open to having mutually respectful conversations is grassroots and it can make a difference.
I'm stepping across the border with my family if trump and the rethugs manage to rig it to where they win the electoral votes--for the third time in less than 30 years.
Absolutely. It terrifies me to think about how easy it would be for my kind, well-meaning friends and neighbors to ignore their consciences, if their lives and families are jeopardized by doing the right thing.
The reason why we are dealing with this still is because it was only yesterday (in terms of geologic time) that we left the caves and we're still (many of us) superstitious cave people. We have a lot of evolving to do before we get some sense. Hopefully we will.
unfortunately they've infiltrated our institutions and yes, we will all vote (hopefully) and then, I fear, it will be challenged, leaving it to the supreme beasts to 'decide' our fate. ...given their obvious bias they are going to take it from us as they have before (ie: gore bush).
Why do Christian Nationalists not follow the teachings of the "meek and lowly Nazarene", Jesus of Nazareth?
Matthew 25:35-40
35 For I was hungry, and you fed me. I was thirsty, and you gave me a drink. I was a stranger, and you invited me into your home. 36 I was naked, and you gave me clothing. I was sick, and you cared for me. I was in prison, and you visited me.’
37 “Then these righteous ones will reply, ‘Lord, when did we ever see you hungry and feed you? Or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 Or a stranger and show you hospitality? Or naked and give you clothing? 39 When did we ever see you sick or in prison and visit you?’
40 “And the King will say, ‘I tell you the truth, when you did it to one of the least of these my brothers and sisters,[a] you were doing it to me!’
Christians seem to rarely follow the teachings of Jesus. Instead, they seem to "cherry-pick" verses and ideas from the apostles' letters and from the Hebrew scriptures.
PJ, that is exactly what these so-called Christians do. They only use verses that furthers their cause and ignore the ones that actually guide you in the way of Jesus' teaching. They are not true Christians and their ideas are quite chilling.
Because they aren't Christians. Or maybe they are. after all Jesus said sell your cloak and buy a sword and bring them that will not have me reign over them, before me and slay them.
The Bible is a handy document for any who wishes to use god as a sock puppet, you can cut and paste any verse or chapter to justify whatever assuages your fears and fulfills your needs.
It's about power for them. They seem to have forgotten that the meek will inherit the earth...as challenging as that feels to me right now, in the midst of climate change.
The problem is that the NT was translated from the Greek into Latin (Latin Vulgate) and from there into other languages,, we have no idea what the original Greek word, or phrase, was that wound up as meek in English, in the same vein, in Leviticus it says that a woman that lies before a beast is, in the KJV, an abomination, in the Hebrew "it is incest" (as women are beasts in the Torah).
Christianity was spread, by Jewish propagandists, for the purpose of destroying Rome from eithin, because they couldn't from without. Rome had destroyed the temple in Jerusalem and carried off the wealth of the Jews, and enslaved the healthy ones using their labor and silver to build the Coliseum, aqueducts and temples.
The bible makes the Pharisees out to be bad guys, but that is only to deflect attention,. The Pharisees were educated, spoke many languages, followed Greek Stoicism, and were more astute in the world than the Rabbi's who read the Torah.
The Pharisee knew that Rome could not be destroyed from without, by force, but it could be destroyed from within, by promoting an ideology of pacifism,, and to deflect attention the hero of the story was betrayed and condemned by the Jew, and crucified by the Romans so there was no way to trace the ideology back to the Pharisee.
Religious doctrine has always been the most effective tool at mind manipulation. It doesn't maintain its control by promoting truly righteous behavior, rather it operates on the philosophy of unadulterated fear of the consequences of disobedience. if purveyors of religious obedience were sincere about the doctrine they preach, they would understand that Jesus and his teachings were only meant for the common good. It is those that came after him that seized the opportunity to promote, grow and maintain their own power. all of this has nothing to do with God.
Christianity is a dangerous tool. It could inspire honesty, decency and autonomy. Nietzsche called out wrath upon what it has become. His points are largely valid. It may have ended its run.
They prefer to use the Bible to hit people over the heads with. The benefits of it being a really big book. Reading… Not so much.
But seriously, I think there’s this attraction to Old Testament stories that has somehow overridden New Testament teachings in many of the rule base Christian sects. I’ve also heard US. Christianity called Paulism as there is such a heavy dependency on the letters of Paul. And although he claims to have had an epiphany, he was not a very nice man.
I am an atheist Sharon, and I have read the bible more times than Christians, The first time at age 12, that is when I became an atheist, the second time at age 40, and I often go back to it, when I need context.
I do not know one Christian that has read the bible, front to cover, without some one looking over their shoulder and telling them what the passage means, that is the purpose of Sunday schools and Bible classes, propaganda reinforcement.
Same here Lee. I wanted to understand where the weird beliefs were coming from.
I am more of an agnostic, but I don't believe in the badly stitched together, contradicting narrative, that is the bible. I try not to disparage those who use it for good.
Same here ethereal. I have no brief with or against those that need to believe, who am I to tell anyone what to think or believe. My problem comes when they use their beliefs as an excuse to discriminate, harass, and control others. And all religions do it.
Religion is the most perfect social control tool ever devised by man, it is has been used to control mankind, since he could communicate in more than grunts.
I'm a firm believer of the Bible, Lee. I consider it to be infallible. I was once like you, reading and not getting the sense of it. But after much, much deep study, I became enthralled by its message. It is an amazing, exciting and eye-opening experience. You will come to know and understand fully everything that is happening in the world, in the past, our time now and into the future. I feel sad to see the misinterpretation of what the Bible is about. My only wish is for people like you to come to know the true teachings of the Bible.
Do you get points for testifying? I don't believe you Merelyn. Any truly intelligent, sentient and perceptive person cannot be a Bible believer. it is too full of fantasy, contradictions, horror, genocide, incest, murder and intolerance.
And the plot of Genesis is Sumerian, via the Akkadians, then the Babylonians.
PJ, Your arguments based on sound reasoning and incontrovertible evidense, make too much sense for the radical right wing of white "christian" (lower case on purpose) nationalists."
They seem to think that Jeebus gives them a pass on playing by any rules and makes them exempt from science and truth. Here's one truth they will need to heed: Being voted out of office everywhere.
The book is an authority on nothing at all. It is a collection of human words that has been altered, filtered, reduced, added to, translated many times over and pushed down the throats of the masses from the days when most were illiterate and religion and the church dominated the codes by which people lived and rulers ruled.
Agreed. All established religions that ascribe to an all powerful god are nothing but fairytales created out of fear of the unknowable and the need to control.
It is neither good nor bad. It is a block of wood. It takes an instrument by which people can take a compilation of ideas, and act for good or ill. Coincidentally, the book begins with an allegory for human responsibility for human action, but the message is confused and entangled with snakes and apples. The point is, it seems more often a lightning rod for human misery and cruelty on the part of humans towards each other, than any benefit. That’s not the book’s doing.
Quite correct. I like to paste from Lib-Talk.com. Its quote about abortion is:
What I don't get is why the religionists even object to abortion. It's certainly not forbidden in the Bible where they claim their moral authority comes from. Jesus never mentioned abortion even once, even though it was common in the Roman world he ministered in. Since he clearly ministered to the prostitutes, he undoubtedly comforted some women that had made that choice. Maybe he didn't think it needed to be mentioned.
The Old Testament is quite clear about when life begins and it is not at conception. In Ezekiel, it clearly states that life starts with breath. It is repeated (Job 10:19):
You cannot murder the unborn because they don't exist yet and will not become a living soul until they take their first breath:
"I should have been as though I had not been; I should have been carried from the womb to the grave."
If you want to look at it from terms of science, even the Catholic Church has accepted that life ends when there is no brain activity. Well, in a developing fetus, brain activity starts at about 24 to 26 weeks. So according to that scientific definition, life doesn't start until then.
Life is special and important, but there is a reason that you have free will to make important decisions. Clearly, the Bible has no injunction against choosing abortion.
If god is the ultimate authority, then let women have the freedom to choose what happens with their bodies and then let god decide what he will do with their wretched souls when they get to the pearly gates. Humans have no authority to control others under a belief system that god is the ultimate decider. Religion is for cowards.
Hyla. After I posted that comment I regretted it, realizing that some might not pick up on the irony and hypocrisy I was attempting to point out. Basically what I was trying to say is that if those that believe that god will decide ones eternal fate, then don’t push your beliefs down anyone’s throats and allow everyone to live as they choose. Then, god will decide, not ignorant humans. I firmly believe in evolution not religious fairytales. Sorry for the confusion.
11 Then the Lord said to Moses, 12 “Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘If a man’s wife goes astray and is unfaithful to him 13 so that another man has sexual relations with her, and this is hidden from her husband and her impurity is undetected (since there is no witness against her and she has not been caught in the act), 14 and if feelings of jealousy come over her husband and he suspects his wife and she is impure—or if he is jealous and suspects her even though she is not impure— 15 then he is to take his wife to the priest. He must also take an offering of a tenth of an ephah[a] of barley flour on her behalf. He must not pour olive oil on it or put incense on it, because it is a grain offering for jealousy, a reminder-offering to draw attention to wrongdoing.
16 “‘The priest shall bring her and have her stand before the Lord. 17 Then he shall take some holy water in a clay jar and put some dust from the tabernacle floor into the water. 18 After the priest has had the woman stand before the Lord, he shall loosen her hair and place in her hands the reminder-offering, the grain offering for jealousy, while he himself holds the bitter water that brings a curse. 19 Then the priest shall put the woman under oath and say to her, “If no other man has had sexual relations with you and you have not gone astray and become impure while married to your husband, may this bitter water that brings a curse not harm you. 20 But if you have gone astray while married to your husband and you have made yourself impure by having sexual relations with a man other than your husband”— 21 here the priest is to put the woman under this curse—“may the Lord cause you to become a curse[b] among your people when he makes your womb miscarry and your abdomen swell. 22 May this water that brings a curse enter your body so that your abdomen swells or your womb miscarries.”
Now I thought I knew the Bible well, but this section is news to me. Ihave never read this before. I agree with you, Christy, for all the long explanation here, it appears that they are forcing her to abort her baby.
Christian objection to abortion Mikey, has nothing to do with religion or life, those are just excuses.
The real motive is the insecure masculine objection to rejection of the fruit of his loins (sperm) and the rejection of his mini me. Some males can't stand rejection, and rejection is behind rapes and stalking. And many males can't even erect to copulate unless they are in their mind in total control of a submissive female. It is biological, just look at other species.
The justification and argument about when life begins is obfuscation, and the Alabama court ruling is a logical result of that argument.
Science, facts are irrelevant because that is not the reason for anti abortion. The real reason is, for insecure males, domination of the female, and the supremacy and preciousness of his sperm, his mini mes, the value of which is ignored as he whacks off in the bathroom and flushes it down the commode.
There are indeed a percentage of males, and all females, that are genuinely apoplectic and emotional about what they consider "unborn babies"
To that I reply:
What organism lives in the body of it's host and draws sustenance at the hosts expense.
When I was a pre teen, I use to collect bottles and get deposits in return. This was in the late 40's early 50's.
One day I brought home a coke bottle with yarn and a knitting needle inside, my mother recognized it immediately, she said it was used for abortion.
My mother was not religious and very liberal, despite being a Republican, and had educated me on sex, with the medical terms, that I wouldn't learn shit on the streets. She demystified a subject, which set my peers a dither, snickering.
Yes. It says life begins when God breathed life into Adam. There is no mention of life beginning at conception anywhere in the Bible. Christians draw this conclusion from the Do Not Commit Murder Commandment from the Bible and apply it as they see fit. It’s okay to “murder” IVF embryos, but not okay to allow an abortion for a 13 year old rape victim of one of her family members. Of course they will provide zero support for the mother and child during and after pregnancy.
Agree. 'Life begins with breath' and an infant's first cry. Before that, it is a vast collection of cells encoded to form a body where the soul can reside and develop to join the larger body of physical and spiritual existence.
A cautionary tale with broader implications. Building towards a better and more inclusive future is not always accepted in society as knowledge and technology advance. There are many historical examples.
Consider that the knowledge of human anatomy was stunted in Europe where dissecting dead bodies was against the wishes of the Catholic Church. The idea was that the soul might somehow be released and sent to eternal damnation or that the body could not be resurrected. The first modern knowledge of human anatomy came from the Islamic Middle East and later through the contrarians like DaVinci.
The religious right also fought hard against the use of stem cells in research. Now, current therapies use stem cells with gene editing technology to treat cancer using tools such as Moderna's vaccine machine (also used for the mRNA Covid vaccine). On the near horizon are cultivated organs for no-rejection transplants, regenerated joints instead of joint replacements, and fixing arteries.
In the Christian tradition, the idea of the bible as science can be traced to Luther. It was his way of countering the enlightenment at the time of the birth of modern science. What happened, however, was that from then on, the bible became seen as an inerrant document. As Karen Armstrong notes in her book "The Lost Art of Scripture," documents such as the bible had often been frequently "updated" almost generationally prior to Luther. The beliefs we are seeing now is not in line with the pre 1500s idea of Christian scriptures.
Misapplying religious ideas from three Millenia ago, like was done by the Alabama Supreme Court, risks taking us back a very dark and unpleasant past. The penchant of this movement to select historical ideas from the Medieval dark ages needs to be called out.
Christian Fundamentalism - Frightening stuff. One would have thought that humanity would have achieved adulthood after 300,000 years. Evidently it hasn't. That so many adults, who showing less comprehension or rationality than the average child, are able to hold such a strong influence, even control, of what other human beings can or can't do, without penalty, is beyond the pale.
Regardless of whether it was ever true or not, it now seems that it is certainly the case that it is a misnomer to speak of the USA as: '... The Land of the Free'.'
The Constitution was free from the "great awakening." God is not mentioned.
The Alabama court is an anomaly. Snopes was dramatized in Inherit the Wind. He that troubleth his own house shall inherit the wind: and the fool shall be servant to the wise of heart.
So interesting that the religious right is consumed with moralism yet supports a man who has no morals as their leader of choice. A lying, cheating, law breaking rapist who encourages hatred and harm to those who do not bow to him is what scripture warns against. He is more Dathan than Moses or Jesus… encouraging his followers to ignore morals in the name of a golden calf.
DMSm your observation about the religious right is accurate but also proof that they aren't religious. Religion is simply a tool, a weapon to be wielded, to secure and guarantee personal authority and control over females and society. It is about making the world safe for them.
Trump is simply a tool, well he has transcended tool status to some form of Icon and saint, but only because he is their route to personal and societal hegemony.
I expect that one day they will deify or sanctify him, he has already positioned himself as a martyr, and none have objected.
The idea is not far fetched. Olaf Trygvasson, King of Norway has been sanctified as St Olaf.
He converted the Norwegians with the sword and brutal deaths, like forcing a viper down the throat. His nick name, outside of the church, is the Bloody Christianizing King of Norway.
Karl Magnus or Charlemagne is considered great and canonized in 1165, because he ruthlessly used the sword to Christianize Europe. In the Bloody Verdict of Verdun, on the bank of the river Meuse he had 4,500 Saxon men, women and children, beheaded because they rejected Christianity (meaning him) and worshiped Irmansul.
Darrow knew perfectly well that the validity of the Theory of Evolution or the bible, or the justness of the law under which Scopes was charged, were irrelevant to the case against his client, and that all a local court like the one in Dayton, TN, could determine was whether or not Scopes broke the law as it stood on the books on the day he was accused of having broken it. Of that, Scopes was undeniably guilty, as the jury so found.
Darrow also knew that counsel for the prosecution would object to his every witness and argument for Evolution and against the bible, and that the judge was in league with the prosecution and would sustain every objection.
But Darrow persisted for one reason: the reporters and radio microphones that packed the courtroom. He wasn’t playing to the jury — what they would hear, and the verdict they would hand down, were preordained — but to the vastly larger court of public opinion that he expected to be moved by the news stories and radio transmissions issuing from that courtroom, and that that public — discomfited, if not outraged by laws passed in their name and advertised as being for their “protection” from radical ideas like Evolution — would pressure the State Legislature to revisit their law.
In the end, it was a strategy against which Bryan and a biased judge could not compete: Darrow’s conviction and calculation that, within any given population, there are more fair people than unfair, more compassionate people than cruel, more democratic than undemocratic, more wishing that they and their neighbors should be part of a just and honorable society.
I’d like to believe that in the ninety-nine years since that trial, those proportions haven’t changed much.
Avie, I am right there with you!! I, too, believe there are more fair than unfair, more compassionate than cruel, more Democratic then not, and most definitely more wanting a just and honorable society. What beautiful and powerful words!! Clarence Darrow was a forward thinker and an excellent lawyer! I hope whoever takes this to court will be like Darrow and get a verdict that says eggs and embryos are not viable humans and that women cannot be charged with manslaughter just because they had a miscarriage!
I was called to jury duty, and during the voire dire process, the defense attorney asked me a question. I don't recall the question, but do recall my answer: That I took my lead from Chief Justice Marshall, that the job of a jury is to determine law as well as facts, I was immediately excused from Jury duty.
Just as well. I was one year into sobriety (1990) and the defendant was charged with a DUI. It was a DUI that was responsible for my sobriety, and I would have had no sympathy at all for the defendant.
Bringing it up to date. Chief Justice Marshall's ruling is behind the rulings of SCOTUS, while he lower courts and prosecutors will not allow that argument that the judge and jury can rule on law as well as facts. That is the justification of SCOTUS for overturning all laws that have advanced civil rights.
SCOTUS defers to states rights in everything from abortion, to Gerrymandering, except when states rights interferes with their ideology of masculinity, religion and money. As in the the case under discussion.
I wish to know why Sotomayor, jackson and Kagan voted with the fascists? Did they strike a deal, if so then they should know better, the right doesn't honor its bargains, only if there is an advantage for them.
True, and that exact line of thought I heard an Assistant District Attorney use in court one week ago today during jury selection when I had been called for jury duty. About one quarter of the called pool thought an imaginative softening of the law was okay within limits.
Sadly, some state and federal judges allow the jury’s misread or misapplication of the law to stand. Worse yet, we now have a Supreme Court, whose justices serve as judge and jury, doing the same right up to effectively rewriting the Constitution and its Amendments.
And that’s exactly what they did for section 3 of the 14th amendment. No where in that section does it state who or what makes the interpretation of insurrection. Probably because at the time, it was self evident. It only says, any ruling of nullification can be made by a 2/3 vote by Congress. So now, there will be absolutely no way to stop any insurrectionist from running for office. Next up, the court will grant Trump immunity from criminal actions while in office. But then, wouldn’t that allow Biden to take out Trump as a national security threat? I don’t think they thought out that far.
The six injustices on the court will rule for a narrow scope limited immunity specific to TFG on January 6. Some rubbish such as exercise of first amendment rights or expressing administration policy on voting rights. It will be a twisted pretzel the likes of which has never been seen that no amount of mustard could make tasty, just lots of salt for our wounds.
I have to ask, how many times has Christianity told us the world is coming to an end on this date or that date, and nothing ever happens? Does not the Bible tell us that one should not, and I paraphrase, predict the end times? One would think, that with so much repetition on the subject over time, that believers would be skeptical by now. And that would cause one to ask, is what I am being told about religion in general really true? But that takes a rational thinker. When one has strong beliefs, it’s hard to shake them to wake up.
This Supreme Court has obliterated the separation between the Church and the State and many of the lower courts are doing the same. Our constitution is being blatantly violated by the very legal establishment that, in part, was designed to protect it.
Remember the story of the flood? God killed all the animals on the Earth and every man woman and child. I can see all the fetuses floating on the water until they're eaten by the sharks that Noah did not put on his so-called boat that he in no way could have ever built and in no way could have he ever have added all those animals into. Fantasy and fairy tales directly from the Bible. Now if they were saying that there might have been a flood in some area and some people and animals escaped on Noah's boat then that could very well be true. But, to claim this was some kind of cataclysmic inundation that somehow God appeared by saving all the animals then we find ourselves in silly land. Possibly so many of them smoking some opium in other words before they wrote Noah's flood story.
But, we still have to remember that this is a story from the Hebrew Bible. What are Christians doing quoting it? After all throughout history they have dislike the Jews. Oh before I forget Jesus was a Jew. At any rate if they dislike the Jews so much then why are they quoting from their book? It's not there effing book. Christian's knock it off.
Honestly I don't think any 2 Christians believe the same thing. My logic here was if God created man, then God created the natural biological processes that are how we function, but if you would like to explain to me how your view differs from that I will read it, providing its not ridiculously long.
Well that’s very nice but millions of Christians worldwide believe the same exact thing. Only a few modern, fringe and/or more liberal denominations differ on the core tenants of Christianity. One of these core tenants is that, the Bible plainly and irrefutably states, sin entered the world through Adam because he disobeyed God. The entire point of Christ’s atoning sacrifice was that His obedience covers our inability to ever perfectly obey God.
That’s what all Christians believe. If they don’t, by definition they are not Christians. It’s not a nebulous, subjective belief system. What I just described is what is detailed in the New Testament scriptures that the religion is based on.
Agree with Christianity or no, it still has a clear definition.
Well that’s very nice but I never meant to suggest no 2 Christians believe any same things. There are many branches of the Christian church (Catholic, Protestant, Episcopalian, Baptist, Mormon to name a few) and many disagree with others, but this all seems off topic. You said Christians don't believe "natural processes are an extension of God", I explained my logic that it seems to me Christians probably universally believe that God created man (mankind, including women) and that would include "the natural biological processes that are how we function". If there's something in your most recent post that contradicts my logic I'm missing it. May peace be with you.
From the disaster of reversing Roe vs Wade to another - eggs are live people! Give us a break. Even animals know when to abort. And who gets the brunt of all this nonsense- families, but mostly women. The Christian Right is only being allowed to try to have it their way because of the Republicans. There is nothing wrong with reading, studying or trying to decipher the Bible (a complicated book for sure), but let’s remember one reason Europeans came over here was to escape the church that was so controlling. We are not a Christian nation. Our religion is free to choose. It’s quite obvious how religion does not mix, in fact is destructive, that’s why our forefathers kept it separate from politics - period! Believe in religion as you wish, but don’t push it on others.
The Christian right wants to apply the death penalty to women who don't behave as they are told to. This is not an act of God this is an act of and sick minds. They want to apply the Christian dominionist Sharia law against everyone and turn our country into Spain of 1492 enacting a follow-up to the Spanish Inquisition by starting the American Inquisition. Have they no shame? I ask. Have they no decency?
“Those were the days when the U.S. Supreme Court was a bulwark against the fundamentalist right and could be counted on to buttress the wall between church and state.”
And there in lies the rub. The fanatics make up two-thirds of the current Supreme Court!
I’m Jewish, and the Hebrew God was the most demonic, sadistic and genocidal of all the gods:
Sadism: The Book of Job
Genocide: Noah’s Ark, the ten plagues, including the death of every first born male in Egypt.
Here's what I said at that time. Thom identified Eastman as Number 2. Although Eastman denied correspondence about issues that might "come before the Court," he refused to produce his documents before he was forced to do so. A Dec. 4, 2020 email from Ginni Thomas asked him to speak to a gathering she called “Frontliners,” which she described as featuring “grassroots state leaders.” She was listed as an administrator of a Facebook group that goes by a similar name and description: “FrontLiners for Liberty.” The group’s pages were removed from public view after CNBC reached out to Thomas about the organization. Every member is a potential witness. I wonder how many were fake electors?
Was she using official SCOTUS email?
Here's what I said, previously.
1. It's still not too late to file charges against the low hanging fruit -- Navarro, Bannon, Flynn, Scott Perry, Gym Jordan, Giuliani, Paul Gosar, etc. How about Ginny Thomas? None are immune.
On January 6th, it was noted by a reporter on television that Ginny Thomas had paid to charter busses to take people to the Capitol. I never heard more about that. At the time I wondered why she would do that. I also remembered seeing Trump invite Clarence Thomas into a room in the white house from the Barrett swearing in ceremony in what appeared to be a private conversation. I agree with Hartmann that she and other conspirators should be charged.
Daniel I would have immediately start dancing on my rooftop and playing loud music to disturb my neighbors if that were to happen. I would be the happiest camper in the world. But what do you think the chances of that happening really are?
The prophet Ezekiel (Yechezkel) describes the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah not as sexual deviancy but cruelty to the stranger and the poor. (16:49). You see, the men of those places used gang rape on unwelcome visitors to send a message to others -- rather than build a Wall.
I like to say that our civilly liable rapist employs "Sodomite cruelty" in his immigration policies. And it's a wonder to behold how the bible-thumpers go along.
Who wants to have children in a society that is dumb, scary, right winged radical racist religious zealots . Mine are 34 and 27 and neither have no interest. The end of civilization in a different way.
I would like to see what that Alabama judge give his judgement in front of the 400,000 women in the US military. Better yet to Tammy Duckworths face. Did religion tell this judge to take a womans rights away? Or was it the Republican party? He and they are using religion as the excuse to subjugate women solely to enforce a white male dominated christian nationalist state (See Southern Poverty Law Center) or here on NPR https://www.npr.org/2024/02/27/1233968467/alabama-supreme-court-ivf-treatment-christian-nationalist
Can you see women in jail for taking control over their inherint right as human beings to control their bodies? "What are you in for?" "I killed my husband, how about you?" "I took a contraceptive". Vote these fundamentalists out.
I was not aware. Thank you for the information. From the article the way that the law is being applied is against the poor. I would suspect it is also being applied unequally along racial lines as well (though the article mentioned nothing of that). Who needs the Gilead for mysoginstic governments that treat women like things instead of people. It is already in place in the south.
Actually it has been in place in the US all my life. It had gotten better, hope for incorporating the ratified ERA into the Constitution, hope for equal pay, recognition that women’s body’s are significantly different than men’s and drugs should not be tested on men and then assumed they will work the same on women, hope for equal pay and representation in government and in business, hope of being believed when sexually assaulted. Dis you know the leading caus of death for pregnant women was homocide? https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/hsph-in-the-news/homicide-leading-cause-of-death-for-pregnant-women-in-u-s/
My family, church, and culture in the small town I grew up in made it very clear that I was inferior to a man and was born to support a husbands success and have his children. As these deceptions and betrayals become more challenged I had more hope, but I have never felt so hated by my country just for being born female as I have since the court reversed Roe, and renewed all the Gilead lies. It is heartbreaking and does a huge disservice not just to woman, but also to men who want the opportunities to also experience being fully human
This is remeniscent of the Underground railroad and free states. In this situation women are being secreted out of states for IVF or abortion procedures. On the free states side the southern states had made laws in the federal government to allow reclaimation of slaves with next to no reprocussions to the person kidnapping blacks and sending them back to slave states. Now states are making laws so if a women goes out of state for a procedure she can still be prosecuted. That is very similar. This of course implies that women are slaves. Considering how stringent these laws are getting I fail to see the distinction. 50% of each states population are women. In the south it was 31% slaves. Add up all the minorities whose rights are also being attacked and I would think that number of oppressed people is 80%.
If anyone believes that 'Original Sin' began with Eve eating that 'apple' as prompted by the 'Serpent, they are willfully blind and ignorant of the whole nature of creation. Understanding comes with the knowledge that everything in creation is a duality. The clue is in the Genesis phrase, "Let us make man in our own image". Sounds rather plural to me, indicating that our creator, may be one entity with a dual, intricately, intertwined, nature – masculine and feminine. This might explain why everything must be a balance of good and evil, dark and light, hot and cold, micro and macro, life and death.
When Man on his own decided to to forcibly excise his feminine component and by extension the original matriarchal goddess centered society, women lost their power as equal creators and arbiters of the laws that should guide human civilization. The feminist, Betty Friedan was onto the right path when she declared the power of women to claim their just treatment in society. Although many good women still promote her ideas, It will take the continuing, massive effort to regain the power we once had to make this world a better place.
Though it's a well written fantasy, author Naomi Alderman's book, 'The Power' offers some interesting ideas. The TV adaptation of the book was pretty good too.
I speak for women in the case of abortion by getting out of the way and letting women make their own choices. The only way to do that for a man is to be pro-choice. In that way a woman can choose to be pro life or pro choice. When the laws hold strict regulations against abortion a women has no choice and her rights are violated.
I can add it here. I stand by it. I removed it 4 hours before you posted any reply. I also thought (on second thought) that including it in the original post was inappropriate because it didn't match with anything in your original post.
Aborting a baby that can survive a c-section is murder. This is self-evident. Killing the baby after c-section is murder, and killing the child before removing it is not morally different.
And this proves that saying abortion should not be limited because of people's "inherent right to control their own body" is wrong. Instead the interests of the mother and child should both be weighed.
Democrats and Republicans are both hypocrites. If Republicans actually cared about babies, they would fund healthcare for babies. If Democrats actually cared about female autonomy, they would facilitate early C-sections. Sure it harms the health of the child, but you're not killing anything, and the will of the mother goes above all, right??
But just as Republicans only care about oppressing people, Democrats only care about killing babies.
C-sections are dangerous, especially in many cases where the woman is experiencing eclampsia, high fever, and sepsis. putting a women under anesthesia in certain conditions increases her chances of death. This latest nonsense pushed by the anti-abortion movement is ignorant and causing harm to pregnant women. Men should not be pushing this harmful agenda.
You've got a point that as a man maybe I shouldn't push this topic. That women are in a better position to weigh the pros and cons.
Still I've got good, female, pro-life friends. And your post triggered me because you disenfranchise them.
I am on this forum, I read your post, and they are not here. Should I remain silent, and leave them undefended?
If we are to leave this topic to the women, you should not vote pro-choice. And you especially should not insinuate that all women agree with your views on abortion. Many of them do not.
My only point was that you were giving incorrect information about C-sections being a one-size fits all alternative to abortion care for high risk, late stage pregnancy complications. Especially because I have witnessed the anguish and pain of women (and their husbands and families) who had miscarriages, stillbirths, and almost lost their lives in risky pregnancies. As a mother and grandmother, I have celebrated new life as well. Each woman made choices for themselves. Neither government nor church organizations should dictate what a grown woman or a grown man should do for their health situation. That is what Pro Choice is all about. And it’s extremely arrogant to tell me not to vote prochoice.
As a retired surgical assistant what you call a “late term abortion” is done because the fetus is incompatible with life, usually massively deformed like with intestines on the outside, cranial issues like the brain not forming. They were very much wanted children. No surgeon would abort a healthy fetus after viability. The anti abortion crowd has been lying about that for decades. Their ignorance is astounding and harmful to the women that need those procedures.
I am aware that in many (most?) jurisdictions the legislation regarding late-term is entirely sensible. In my own jurisdiction late-term abortions only occur when the fetus isn't viable, or when it is necessary to safe-guard the life of the mother. And the law doesn't and shouldn't micro-manage doctors.
I have three reasons for mentioning late term abortions.
Firstly:
I have never heard an official Democrat state that (s)he thinks there should be any kind of limits on abortion. It would be reassuring if even a few Democrats could state publicly that we don't need to worry about late term abortions becoming more prevalent, that they don't want abortion to become legal at every time and for every reason. But none of them have. Or at least, I haven't heard from it if it happened. There must be a reason?
In addition to this, progressives use extremist language. "Women are sovereign over their bodies, and therefore abortion should not be limited." Implying that the child is part of the woman's body until it is born. Saying that people deserve to be sovereign over their genes. etc. Arguments that, if taken literally, would imply that a woman should be able to commit abortion at any time and for any reason.
I've read an article in the Guardian attacking the decision for persecuting a woman who committed a late-term abortion on herself (via poisoning herself I believe), because the author (and editor?) of the article believed no-one should ever be persecuted for abortion. So some people really do believe these arguments.
Now you might say that allowing abortion at any time and for any reason is far-fetched and I shouldn't worry about it. I would like to agree, but I would have thought the same would apply to declaring that life legally begins at conception. Which just happened.
The second reason is that late-term abortions form a useful litmus test for pro-choice arguments. If the argument implies that late-term abortions should be allowed without medical necessity, the argument must be flawed.
The third reason is that in quite a few jurisdiction relatively minor medical issues are sufficient reason to qualify for a late-term abortion. I fully believe that this wasn't the case where you work. But I've heard from a doctor in Britain when I was there (2016?) that at that time Down Syndrome was enough to justify a third-trimester abortion in his hospital, and it was hard on him. Since then a woman has sued the British government to end the exception for Down syndrome. The judge ruled that this was a matter for parliament to change, because no rule was being broken. But the rhetoric of pro-abortion "progressives" in relation to this case was scary.
British parliament literally can't have a discussion about the reasonable bounds of abortion without pro-abortion extremists ruining it.
It is very simple. Pregnancy is far too complicated to legislate, again Gyn doctors go to school for 11-15 years to be the highly trained professionals that they are. No untrained person should inject their ignorance into another's healthcare decisions. What you term "Late--term abortions and why you obsess on something that is 1 % of all abortions, that are done under the most tragic of circumstances, wanted children that development goes terribly wrong, those women deserve your sypathy, not legislation that imperils their life, and could kill them too. I don't understand why you think they would become more prevalent, unless you realize that these forced-birthing laws will result in more unhealthy incompatible with life fetuses. The forced-birth laws, because that is what they are, the anti-choice people have been broadcasting they are going after contraception next.
To adress your points:
1. Many democratic representives (democrat is a slur used by the propagandists) believe many different things, some are okay with limits, and a few are even anti-choice, We believe the woman should have a CHOICE to keep their pregnancy, or not, we understand poverty and having children aleady to feed, can contribute to a decision that is theirs, and only theirs to make. We do not force anyone to have an abortion, but support the decisions of those to keep their pregnancy and see it through. We are not a monolith like the republicans (mostly) are. There is no agreement on limits, and medically trained persons like myself understand why. Things can go horribly wrong and some conditions such as Trisomy 18 don't show up until after 15- 20 weeks of pregnancy, There are many other examples.
To quote Jessica Valenti a researcher that studies legal actions taken in ignorance on pregnancy specifically she is writing about Kate Cox:"
"Imagine what this kind of cruelty and confusion looks like on a national level: About 120,000 pregnancies are diagnosed with fetal abnormalities every year, and congenital malformations are responsible for thousands of infant deaths per year."
Are Republicans prepared for a country where thousands or tens of thousands of women are suing for the right not to be treated as “walking coffins”? Do they understand what it will mean when local hospital NICUs are overloaded with dying babies, or what it will do to communities as families go bankrupt from medical costs and baby funerals? Will they be buying stock in infant burial gowns?
Even if conservatives do allow abortions in pregnancies with fatal abnormalities—telling us how generous they are to do so—the nightmare won’t end, and women will still have to beg for care: Parents will have to show that a baby born without a skull is, in fact, going to die. Or that their daughter’s condition constitutes being “lethal” even though she’ll survive a few days rather than a few hours.
People who might otherwise be able to grieve and recover at home in peace will still be treated to lawyers and courtrooms. Can someone show me where the ‘pro-life’ part is in all of this?
There’s a reason that Cox’s story has attracted national and international attention. The whole world truly has been watching the cruelty of abortion bans in real time. But what’s happening in Texas isn’t some unthinkable outlier—it’s the reality in half the country. And conservatives are planning for a rapid expansion everywhere else."
In October, I published an investigation into how the anti-abortion movement is quietly spending millions of dollars on new initiatives for ‘prenatal counseling’ and ‘perinatal hospice care’. This isn’t a coincidence. These groups are working to change legislation, medical norms, patient care and more—all in the service of pressuring and forcing American women to carry doomed pregnancies to term. They’ve prepared for cases like Cox’s, and they’re not planning on backing down.
As the saying goes: None of the suffering we’re seeing is a bug—it’s a feature. Most insulting of all, Republicans want to sell us that suffering a ‘compromise’, as if they’re doing us a favor.
#2 No one in the mainstream democratic party says this that I am aware of and again, we are all individuals with minds and reasons of our own. We live in reality, as the poster above replied to you. It is not a part of the official party platform, and to extrapolate that opinion as representing all, is a huge strawman. I have explained the realty of abortions done after the second trimester. No one purposefully waits until the fetus is highly developed to decide arbitrarily to get an abortion, third trimester abortions are far more expensive and very few GYN surgeons will even do them, and not without a serious fatal anomaly, or risk to the health of the mother. (Oddly enough they are responsible citizens, who don't want to be sued.) Also it involves getting an appointment and travelling which rules out all poor women. Only a well-to-do person could even afford it. I don't know why that particular propaganda appeals to so many as it is so far from the truth.
3. "Minor medical issues!" Dude no one in the United States especially now under the draconian abortion bans we have in the redder states is doing anything for minor medical issues. Downs syndrome is a very major health issue, that requires lifetime care as they cannot take care of themselves enough to lead an independent, autonomous life. and they often can outlive you. Okay if you are willing to take that on, but what happens to them after you die? They are vulnerable to abuse from anyone you would ask to care for them.
Wait why are we even discussing th UK the conversation is about the US. You are moving the goal posts now. Yet another strawman. I explained the reality we women, and those that love and support us have to deal with. I gave you the truth. Be well and try to understand the real issues not the emotional appeals that are lies.
I am 73. When I was 22 I was told by my mother that she would not watch "Inherit the Wind" with her favorite actor, Spencer Tracy, because it was about the Scopes trial.
It was on that day that I realized my mother and father believed that the Earth was 6000 years old, that the fossils I had cleaned on the kitchen table when I was 12 had been put in the ground by Satan to "confuse us".
My mother and father never pressed their version of religion on me, only concerned that I grow up to be a kind and moral man.
I thank them every day for having as much faith in me as they had in their god.
Thank you, Dr. Reich for presenting your timely analysis of the 1925 Scopes Trial.
Ninety-nine years after Scopes our nation is still dealing with "bigots and ignorameses" as Darrow correctly observed.
In our present day those "bigots and ignorameses" occupy not only christo-facists churches but the right-wing theocrats on the scotus, as well.
But, like all fanatics, these zealots will not stop their crusade until the voters stop their totalitarian march this coming November.
Vote like your life depends upon it, because it does.
We have to volunteer to get the vote out this time-- because a full third of the electorate didn't vote in 2020, because Republicans are organized in voter suppression across the country, because losing this next election will send America into a fascist state, because many Americans today do not see this and do not understand the fear, hunger, hate, danger, loss of joy and well being such a structure is.
Imagine your neighbor reporting you to the authorities for seeking an abortion, for teaching science or trying to stop global warming, for having a foreign houseguest, for having a gay son or daughter or for being LGBTQ+, etc.
THAT'S WHAT'S COMING IF WE DON'T VOTE REPUBLICANS OUT!!!
It’s terrifying, watching from Australia. We have some serious, serious problems but we have compulsory voting and an independent commission that sets electoral boundaries. Our High Court is, prosaically, our highest Court and it’s largely left alone to fulfill its function as the third branch of government.
You’re our historical democratic model, our constitution is largely based on yours. How have you fallen into such disarray, teetering on the brink of autocracy?
Two words, well, three actually: money, greed and power.
Yes. And I am well past indiscriminate religion bashing. We need a prosperous healthy public. And a Congress working for the public to help get that.
I am just starting religion bashing. It is one thing to argue what is moral based on science. But, it is something else to base it on religious dogma. Based on science, statements can usually be discussed and resolved based on common moral understanding. Based on dogma, only death or persecution of one faction or the other can resolve difference.
But even with science, there must be a rule to let differences of opinion remain unresolved until further study can enlighten some matters. And sometimes common morals are not common. For instance today as Dr. Reich informs, some people think that authoritian rule is preferable to democracy. They actually prefer that society be rulled by force from the top down, and that the top is determined by whoever is strong or clever enough to claim that title. They prefer obedience to the furher to the rule of law and justice. And the are not pursuaded by fact or logic.
The notion of top down rule, authoritarianism, exists or applies only when the people or a faction, agrees with the objectives of the authoritarian.
For instance MAGAts see in Trump, their savior, his is their avatar, their icon and believe that he is they and they are him, so they defend and promote Trump as they would themselves.
Hitler had command over the mind of der Deutsches Volk, because he was they and they were him.
Even religions are authoritarian, Bible or Quran you will find nothing in them that is optional, or maybe, of if you feel like it.
"They actually prefer that society be ruled by force from the top down."
That's because they think they will be unaffected, that the impact will only be felt by "those people," by the "other," the "not us." By the time they realize the rulers' definition of "us" has shrunk to where they are no longer "one of us," it's too late.
Ted, you are right about people thinking they want to be ruled from top down, that is until they are caught in the insanity of such a system and are accused of something or someone in their own family is. The top down system only works for the haves and those have nots who can get into the good graces of the haves. Totalitarian systems do great harm to the people, yet they keep springing up. It seems human beings have really short memories.
I’m a secular atheist and I approve this message.
I think we should call out the religious hypocrisy as much as we can. To claim to be pro-life even to embryos, but to go to war and to do nothing to stop mass killings of our children and others in public places would be laughable if only it wasn't so horrifying. There are only a few religious groups that live what they preach- Quakers come to mind.
isn't it remarkably easy for government to forget who is the real boss here? We the People. without our taxes and our votes, they are nothing! Like they used to say in Chicago VOTE BLUE (early and often!😩
Blindly voting blue is no longer enough. Find out who is funding each of your candidates of choice. There are those trying to slip into power who are anything but supporters of a democracy!
And Putin
To what you have listed, I would add lack of attention and emphasis on education! Who are the blind impassioned followers of the zealots? Many uneducated people who lack historical context and understanding!
Two words:
Donald Trump
Yes, he certainly is the embodiment of greed and power. Unfortunately, he is not the only one.
Kristen, Democracy will win out. We are fighting hard to rid our government of the right-wing crazies that seem to have taken over. It is embarrassing for the majority of us that the world sees these absolute idiots and wonder what has happened to America. We will set the ship right and continue to be the Democracy all of us have grown up with!!
Peggy, voting is not democracy.
They vote in Russia, Hungary, Haiti, Africa, Iran and so on, and none of those are Democracies.. I hope, it is wishful thinking that Democracies win out, but the sad fact is that Democracy is fragile, and contains within it, the tools of it's own destruction.
The enemies of Democracy, use the freedoms of democracy to destroy it.
The problem is authoritarian ideologies, and religion is an ideology. Ideologies that proclaim that there is only one truth, one way.. theirs. Be it Bolshevism, Capitalism, Christianity, or Islam all lead to authoritarianism.
Voting is a significant aspect of democracy. And it’s not to be diminished simply because it’s used in countries that are struggling to keep their democracies growing and or a float..
I did not diminish voting Sharon. I just said that just because there is a vote, does not mean there is a democracy.
I kind of thought that that was obvious, I didn't think that I would have to explain it to thoughtful and intelligent people.
Don’t forget Trumpism. He is worshiped as a god (gag) by these yahoos.
I’m
With you Peggy
Me too!
Amen, Peggy.
USA American anti-intellectualism & worship of the almighty dollar. Unjust States of Amerikkka (USA) is the seat of Mammonism. It's already an autocracy ruled by the 1% & the military industrial complex thanks to Milton Friedman, von Hayek, von Mises, Ayn Rand, & everybody else who believes in the "invisible hand of the market". Insatiable greed is the grease of USA's laissez-faire capitalist autocracy. USA is dead & just waiting to be embalmed, cremated, & buried in an urn next to Ivana Trump's on the first hole of Bedminster Golf Club. The world will be a better place once the now white supremacist theocratic Christofascist colonial settler empire destroys itself & disappears from the face of Earth.
yikes!
Are you Chinese? Posting from the PRC? Sure do sound like you are,
How about runaway Capitalism in China. Same problem there as here, only Chinese laborer are kept in factories like slaves. They even had to string nets between buildings to keep the workers from committing suicide.
Not posting from the PRC, with its state-supported capitalist system thanks to Deng Xiao-Ping ("Little Bottles"). Runaway Capitalism has captured the entire world because the insatiably greedy exist only to generate profits (blurted out by Liz Truss at CPAC last week) for themselves. Billionaires (like Truss's successor Sunak & wife, like Musk & Bezos, like the British royal family, like most nations' rulers) should not exist at any time anywhere. Wage slave laborers exist in all nation states because economics drives most human behavior, not human rights or freedom or just moral codes. PRC peons are better off now than before Mao, but it's still an abominable place. Used to be married to a Shanghainese. Hated Shanghai. Wretched place back in 1989.
I actually agree with you and I did the first time, but your ire was completely directed towards the U.S.A.
I am not anti Capitalist, whatever Capitalism means.It just needs to be reigned in, regulated, disciplined, punished when it goes astray.
One thing the PRC does that I like is that it puniishes (executes) CEO's and owners when they defraud, poison and pollute.
In America when, and more importantly, if they are caught and if they are punished, it is only
with a fine, which they deduct as the cost of doing business, and I wouldn't be surprised if they took the fine as a tax deduction, like they do the billions they spend on advertising.
The states initially had charter laws that included a death penalty, mostly of 50 years, and to renew they had to prove they were operating in the public interest, but John D Rockefeller didn't like that, so he advertised that he would move his corporation to the state with the best charter. New Jersey won and he set up Standard Oil of NJ, Ohio soon followed with SOHIO.
Then Delaware beat them all and is now the home of 600 plus corporations,.
Then in 1919 the Michigan Supreme Court ruled that the only purpose of a corporation (Dodge v Ford) was to make a profit for the shareholder, and that is what is taught in business schools, and has never been challenged so that is the ethos of American commerce.
The Upside, for other living creatures besides mammals, is that humankind, insatiable appetites and greed, stupidity, gullibility and beliefs are resulting in humans committing slow specicicide, our activities are killing us and other living things, from plastic pollution, we eat the equivalent of a credit card of plastic a day, to global warming, toss in religious wars, madmen like Putin,Trump, Xi, Un, HAMAS, Netanyahu and you have the end of all things, but it want be overnight, no armeggedon, it will be slow and gradual and we won't notice, until we drop dead, faster than being replaced.
Pay attention Chen is not that far wrong
What do you mean pay attention asshat.
Your arrogant response has absolutely nothing to do with my response to Chen.
Dead on. The "invisible hand of the market" is not the market itself, but the forces operating within its structure. Trading values to better our individual position is the "invisible hand". The market is man-made to manage this "invisible" force. -- to ensure its fairness, honesty, and peaceful function. The market we live under today is the product of those who wish to skew its favor toward the wealthy. The creation of wealth is good. The inequitable distribution of said wealth is the crime we see all around us. Economists like Friedman and von Hayek are largely complicit.
And your last sentence cannot come to pass soon enough!
Manipulation from ruthless politicians seeking power to protect privileges of today's version of the landed gentry! So, welcome to the new land of mythical corruption...
Tyranny of the minority. There are the few who have not just figured out how to wedge the rule of law between governance, their are the people willing to do it with the hubris that somehow they’re going to escape this whole situation unscathed.
Even the most well-meaning law or process can be manipulated if one is willing to step aside from ethics, morals, and twist it hard enough.
It’s quite frightening from here as well, and we can only hope that the majority stand up and do what’s needed to right this democracy because I don’t know if we can depend on the rule of law anymore.
I feel more sad (and frustrated) than hopeless.
A huge disadvantage is the several generations that haven’t seen the hardship that the elders have, and the resulting mis-modeling of what’s actually happening, leading to a minimizing of its potential effects on their future.
The Evangelicals and radical catholics have been working on this for roughly 50 years, ever since Roe vs wade was decided, the misogynistic patriarchal old men have been pouring money into making us a theocracy.
https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/05/religious-right-real-origins-107133/
Make that 60 years. What you say is all well documented in the words of the movement's leaders. This "under the radar" plan is entirely unknown to most people, but our nation today is probably in greater danger from this social cancer than from Wall Street. SCOTUS is now a power center for the hard Christian right, and it seems they are dead set on getting their Theocracy no matter what it does to our pluralistic Democracy, or our Constitution.
What's Australia's viewpoint on accepting Americans seeking political asylum?
Just don’t arrive by boat Renee. We have a scandalous, inhumane system of offshore immigration detention for asylum seekers that we’ve exported to England in the form of the ‘Rwanda Solution’. Our two major parties are equally culpable in maintaining it, at a huge cost. You may recall Trump said something along the lines of “These guys are worse than us”, which tells you all you need to know.
Well, if I did, I wouldn't arrive by boat LOL. I hate cruise ships with a passion and I'm not too fond of being on the ocean. Hate being cooped up cheek by jowl with all those people in one place! Of course, if it came to emigrating I would really really research a place! Don't wish to go from the frying pan into the fire! Interesting what you say.
Read Kevin Phillips, American Theocracy.
Kristen - how does mandatory voting work? does it work?
It’s baked in to us as a civic responsibility and it’s fun. We have sausage sizzles, cake stalls, best dog at the polling booth competitions, and such. I think we had around 92 per cent turnout at the last federal election, which blessedly saw the end of nine years of conservative rule.
https://hir.harvard.edu/compulsion-emboldens-democracy-a-deep-dive-into-australias-mandatory-voting/
thank you so much, Kristen. what a great idea to make it a holiday and something to be celebrated. now the next question is how to get folks to vote correctly? (he said facetiously). i suppose education could help that along. here's a great educational source:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3WTlyuhDs0
No! No! A thousand times No!
this is a reply to Kristen from Australia.
What if . . . we all, as individuals, agree to partner in conversation with one other person who is not voting as we are. Being willing to find common ground and honestly accepting that both sides are equally willing to change positions in relation to their respective priorities. Surely all voters will be strengthened in the aftermath of this election to follow through with wise intentions if we are able to serve each other in this way.
If only! Sad to say that there are people on both sides who don’t see your way of thinking. If many on the MAGA right really understand that many others on the left believe that corporations and the 1% have too much power, then we might have a starting point to begin a true dialogue. But when they see some on the left proposing eliminating police or calling everyone racists, then there is no promise for any dialogue. As I’ve said countless times, neither the far right nor the far left have the wellbeing of most of us in mind.
Nice thought, Bobbe. I commend those who do so with great respect. The difficulty is knowing the right words to say when talking to a wall.
Maybe a good swift kick in the balls. If they owned a pair.
LOL. Maybe on Earth 2. Bobbe
Agree. We’re way past that.
My husband almost came to blows with someone trying to do this. If I hadn't witnessed it, I'd think this would be a reasonable tactic.
This is it. Thank you Bobbie. Small actions like parting with just one other person or people that you come in contact with that are open to having mutually respectful conversations is grassroots and it can make a difference.
Neighbors, family, exes, religions seeking donations of money, land, your child, 'would be suitors' turned down, property speculators, 'disgruntled employees, employers, competitors'... anybody
Texas 2024
Or a
Follett Novel
But please stop imagining it! What you put out there will come back to you. Ugh!
it's the law of attraction.
https://www.fieldteam6.org/actions
Thanks, Daniel. Will be sharing this information.
I'm stepping across the border with my family if trump and the rethugs manage to rig it to where they win the electoral votes--for the third time in less than 30 years.
It’s already here in some areas
Absolutely. It terrifies me to think about how easy it would be for my kind, well-meaning friends and neighbors to ignore their consciences, if their lives and families are jeopardized by doing the right thing.
Yes, literally, our lives depend on this vote... imagine what Trump's mafia mob will do to anyone who contradicts him.
The reason why we are dealing with this still is because it was only yesterday (in terms of geologic time) that we left the caves and we're still (many of us) superstitious cave people. We have a lot of evolving to do before we get some sense. Hopefully we will.
unfortunately they've infiltrated our institutions and yes, we will all vote (hopefully) and then, I fear, it will be challenged, leaving it to the supreme beasts to 'decide' our fate. ...given their obvious bias they are going to take it from us as they have before (ie: gore bush).
Why do Christian Nationalists not follow the teachings of the "meek and lowly Nazarene", Jesus of Nazareth?
Matthew 25:35-40
35 For I was hungry, and you fed me. I was thirsty, and you gave me a drink. I was a stranger, and you invited me into your home. 36 I was naked, and you gave me clothing. I was sick, and you cared for me. I was in prison, and you visited me.’
37 “Then these righteous ones will reply, ‘Lord, when did we ever see you hungry and feed you? Or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 Or a stranger and show you hospitality? Or naked and give you clothing? 39 When did we ever see you sick or in prison and visit you?’
40 “And the King will say, ‘I tell you the truth, when you did it to one of the least of these my brothers and sisters,[a] you were doing it to me!’
Christians seem to rarely follow the teachings of Jesus. Instead, they seem to "cherry-pick" verses and ideas from the apostles' letters and from the Hebrew scriptures.
PJ, that is exactly what these so-called Christians do. They only use verses that furthers their cause and ignore the ones that actually guide you in the way of Jesus' teaching. They are not true Christians and their ideas are quite chilling.
Because they aren't Christians. Or maybe they are. after all Jesus said sell your cloak and buy a sword and bring them that will not have me reign over them, before me and slay them.
The Bible is a handy document for any who wishes to use god as a sock puppet, you can cut and paste any verse or chapter to justify whatever assuages your fears and fulfills your needs.
Word.
I thank you for saying that.
Your question is rhetorical, yes?
It's about power for them. They seem to have forgotten that the meek will inherit the earth...as challenging as that feels to me right now, in the midst of climate change.
The problem is that the NT was translated from the Greek into Latin (Latin Vulgate) and from there into other languages,, we have no idea what the original Greek word, or phrase, was that wound up as meek in English, in the same vein, in Leviticus it says that a woman that lies before a beast is, in the KJV, an abomination, in the Hebrew "it is incest" (as women are beasts in the Torah).
Christianity was spread, by Jewish propagandists, for the purpose of destroying Rome from eithin, because they couldn't from without. Rome had destroyed the temple in Jerusalem and carried off the wealth of the Jews, and enslaved the healthy ones using their labor and silver to build the Coliseum, aqueducts and temples.
The bible makes the Pharisees out to be bad guys, but that is only to deflect attention,. The Pharisees were educated, spoke many languages, followed Greek Stoicism, and were more astute in the world than the Rabbi's who read the Torah.
The Pharisee knew that Rome could not be destroyed from without, by force, but it could be destroyed from within, by promoting an ideology of pacifism,, and to deflect attention the hero of the story was betrayed and condemned by the Jew, and crucified by the Romans so there was no way to trace the ideology back to the Pharisee.
Read the article in The Atlantic, by Peter Wehner, titled Where Did Evangelicals Go Wrong? And then you’ll have the answers to your questions.
Religious doctrine has always been the most effective tool at mind manipulation. It doesn't maintain its control by promoting truly righteous behavior, rather it operates on the philosophy of unadulterated fear of the consequences of disobedience. if purveyors of religious obedience were sincere about the doctrine they preach, they would understand that Jesus and his teachings were only meant for the common good. It is those that came after him that seized the opportunity to promote, grow and maintain their own power. all of this has nothing to do with God.
Therein lies the hypocrisy. Save us from evil.
Christianity is a dangerous tool. It could inspire honesty, decency and autonomy. Nietzsche called out wrath upon what it has become. His points are largely valid. It may have ended its run.
They prefer to use the Bible to hit people over the heads with. The benefits of it being a really big book. Reading… Not so much.
But seriously, I think there’s this attraction to Old Testament stories that has somehow overridden New Testament teachings in many of the rule base Christian sects. I’ve also heard US. Christianity called Paulism as there is such a heavy dependency on the letters of Paul. And although he claims to have had an epiphany, he was not a very nice man.
I am an atheist Sharon, and I have read the bible more times than Christians, The first time at age 12, that is when I became an atheist, the second time at age 40, and I often go back to it, when I need context.
I do not know one Christian that has read the bible, front to cover, without some one looking over their shoulder and telling them what the passage means, that is the purpose of Sunday schools and Bible classes, propaganda reinforcement.
Same here Lee. I wanted to understand where the weird beliefs were coming from.
I am more of an agnostic, but I don't believe in the badly stitched together, contradicting narrative, that is the bible. I try not to disparage those who use it for good.
Same here ethereal. I have no brief with or against those that need to believe, who am I to tell anyone what to think or believe. My problem comes when they use their beliefs as an excuse to discriminate, harass, and control others. And all religions do it.
Religion is the most perfect social control tool ever devised by man, it is has been used to control mankind, since he could communicate in more than grunts.
I'm a firm believer of the Bible, Lee. I consider it to be infallible. I was once like you, reading and not getting the sense of it. But after much, much deep study, I became enthralled by its message. It is an amazing, exciting and eye-opening experience. You will come to know and understand fully everything that is happening in the world, in the past, our time now and into the future. I feel sad to see the misinterpretation of what the Bible is about. My only wish is for people like you to come to know the true teachings of the Bible.
Do you get points for testifying? I don't believe you Merelyn. Any truly intelligent, sentient and perceptive person cannot be a Bible believer. it is too full of fantasy, contradictions, horror, genocide, incest, murder and intolerance.
And the plot of Genesis is Sumerian, via the Akkadians, then the Babylonians.
A sad facet of the instition, and it has been ever thus.
He was a misogynistic jerk-off if all the writings attributed to him are actually his, scholars disagree on that point.
PJ, Your arguments based on sound reasoning and incontrovertible evidense, make too much sense for the radical right wing of white "christian" (lower case on purpose) nationalists."
They seem to think that Jeebus gives them a pass on playing by any rules and makes them exempt from science and truth. Here's one truth they will need to heed: Being voted out of office everywhere.
Can you explain how this contradicts Christian nationalism?
🎯Because they follow greedy preachers. Who hate in the name of god.
The Bible doesn't say life begins at conception, if anything it says life begins with breath.
The book is an authority on nothing at all. It is a collection of human words that has been altered, filtered, reduced, added to, translated many times over and pushed down the throats of the masses from the days when most were illiterate and religion and the church dominated the codes by which people lived and rulers ruled.
Agreed. All established religions that ascribe to an all powerful god are nothing but fairytales created out of fear of the unknowable and the need to control.
It’s all been about power for centuries, hasn’t it?
For ever and ever.
It is neither good nor bad. It is a block of wood. It takes an instrument by which people can take a compilation of ideas, and act for good or ill. Coincidentally, the book begins with an allegory for human responsibility for human action, but the message is confused and entangled with snakes and apples. The point is, it seems more often a lightning rod for human misery and cruelty on the part of humans towards each other, than any benefit. That’s not the book’s doing.
Quite correct. I like to paste from Lib-Talk.com. Its quote about abortion is:
What I don't get is why the religionists even object to abortion. It's certainly not forbidden in the Bible where they claim their moral authority comes from. Jesus never mentioned abortion even once, even though it was common in the Roman world he ministered in. Since he clearly ministered to the prostitutes, he undoubtedly comforted some women that had made that choice. Maybe he didn't think it needed to be mentioned.
The Old Testament is quite clear about when life begins and it is not at conception. In Ezekiel, it clearly states that life starts with breath. It is repeated (Job 10:19):
You cannot murder the unborn because they don't exist yet and will not become a living soul until they take their first breath:
"I should have been as though I had not been; I should have been carried from the womb to the grave."
If you want to look at it from terms of science, even the Catholic Church has accepted that life ends when there is no brain activity. Well, in a developing fetus, brain activity starts at about 24 to 26 weeks. So according to that scientific definition, life doesn't start until then.
Life is special and important, but there is a reason that you have free will to make important decisions. Clearly, the Bible has no injunction against choosing abortion.
If god is the ultimate authority, then let women have the freedom to choose what happens with their bodies and then let god decide what he will do with their wretched souls when they get to the pearly gates. Humans have no authority to control others under a belief system that god is the ultimate decider. Religion is for cowards.
"Let"? "god"? "wretched souls"? a little evolution wouldn't hurt you either, Mark Mooney
Hyla. After I posted that comment I regretted it, realizing that some might not pick up on the irony and hypocrisy I was attempting to point out. Basically what I was trying to say is that if those that believe that god will decide ones eternal fate, then don’t push your beliefs down anyone’s throats and allow everyone to live as they choose. Then, god will decide, not ignorant humans. I firmly believe in evolution not religious fairytales. Sorry for the confusion.
it's ok!
They had abortion in Old Testament
Numbers 5:11-31
New International Version
The Test for an Unfaithful Wife
11 Then the Lord said to Moses, 12 “Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘If a man’s wife goes astray and is unfaithful to him 13 so that another man has sexual relations with her, and this is hidden from her husband and her impurity is undetected (since there is no witness against her and she has not been caught in the act), 14 and if feelings of jealousy come over her husband and he suspects his wife and she is impure—or if he is jealous and suspects her even though she is not impure— 15 then he is to take his wife to the priest. He must also take an offering of a tenth of an ephah[a] of barley flour on her behalf. He must not pour olive oil on it or put incense on it, because it is a grain offering for jealousy, a reminder-offering to draw attention to wrongdoing.
16 “‘The priest shall bring her and have her stand before the Lord. 17 Then he shall take some holy water in a clay jar and put some dust from the tabernacle floor into the water. 18 After the priest has had the woman stand before the Lord, he shall loosen her hair and place in her hands the reminder-offering, the grain offering for jealousy, while he himself holds the bitter water that brings a curse. 19 Then the priest shall put the woman under oath and say to her, “If no other man has had sexual relations with you and you have not gone astray and become impure while married to your husband, may this bitter water that brings a curse not harm you. 20 But if you have gone astray while married to your husband and you have made yourself impure by having sexual relations with a man other than your husband”— 21 here the priest is to put the woman under this curse—“may the Lord cause you to become a curse[b] among your people when he makes your womb miscarry and your abdomen swell. 22 May this water that brings a curse enter your body so that your abdomen swells or your womb miscarries.”
Now I thought I knew the Bible well, but this section is news to me. Ihave never read this before. I agree with you, Christy, for all the long explanation here, it appears that they are forcing her to abort her baby.
That is not an abortion. That is two men deciding what a woman can do with her body and by todays evangelical standards committing murder,
Absolute dung!
Christian objection to abortion Mikey, has nothing to do with religion or life, those are just excuses.
The real motive is the insecure masculine objection to rejection of the fruit of his loins (sperm) and the rejection of his mini me. Some males can't stand rejection, and rejection is behind rapes and stalking. And many males can't even erect to copulate unless they are in their mind in total control of a submissive female. It is biological, just look at other species.
The justification and argument about when life begins is obfuscation, and the Alabama court ruling is a logical result of that argument.
Science, facts are irrelevant because that is not the reason for anti abortion. The real reason is, for insecure males, domination of the female, and the supremacy and preciousness of his sperm, his mini mes, the value of which is ignored as he whacks off in the bathroom and flushes it down the commode.
There are indeed a percentage of males, and all females, that are genuinely apoplectic and emotional about what they consider "unborn babies"
To that I reply:
What organism lives in the body of it's host and draws sustenance at the hosts expense.
a. Tapeworm
b . Parasite
c. Fetus
d. All of the above.
Abortion will end when the last desperate woman who is pregnant commits suicide. If that is the only choice we allow, it will occur still.
Steve O'Cally'
Not only will it occur, it is and has been occurring and has only increased since Dobbs.
When I was a pre teen, I use to collect bottles and get deposits in return. This was in the late 40's early 50's.
One day I brought home a coke bottle with yarn and a knitting needle inside, my mother recognized it immediately, she said it was used for abortion.
My mother was not religious and very liberal, despite being a Republican, and had educated me on sex, with the medical terms, that I wouldn't learn shit on the streets. She demystified a subject, which set my peers a dither, snickering.
Yes. It says life begins when God breathed life into Adam. There is no mention of life beginning at conception anywhere in the Bible. Christians draw this conclusion from the Do Not Commit Murder Commandment from the Bible and apply it as they see fit. It’s okay to “murder” IVF embryos, but not okay to allow an abortion for a 13 year old rape victim of one of her family members. Of course they will provide zero support for the mother and child during and after pregnancy.
Agree. 'Life begins with breath' and an infant's first cry. Before that, it is a vast collection of cells encoded to form a body where the soul can reside and develop to join the larger body of physical and spiritual existence.
👍
Yes, they pulled that out of their posterior, along with that weird 'rapture' crap.
A cautionary tale with broader implications. Building towards a better and more inclusive future is not always accepted in society as knowledge and technology advance. There are many historical examples.
Consider that the knowledge of human anatomy was stunted in Europe where dissecting dead bodies was against the wishes of the Catholic Church. The idea was that the soul might somehow be released and sent to eternal damnation or that the body could not be resurrected. The first modern knowledge of human anatomy came from the Islamic Middle East and later through the contrarians like DaVinci.
The religious right also fought hard against the use of stem cells in research. Now, current therapies use stem cells with gene editing technology to treat cancer using tools such as Moderna's vaccine machine (also used for the mRNA Covid vaccine). On the near horizon are cultivated organs for no-rejection transplants, regenerated joints instead of joint replacements, and fixing arteries.
In the Christian tradition, the idea of the bible as science can be traced to Luther. It was his way of countering the enlightenment at the time of the birth of modern science. What happened, however, was that from then on, the bible became seen as an inerrant document. As Karen Armstrong notes in her book "The Lost Art of Scripture," documents such as the bible had often been frequently "updated" almost generationally prior to Luther. The beliefs we are seeing now is not in line with the pre 1500s idea of Christian scriptures.
Misapplying religious ideas from three Millenia ago, like was done by the Alabama Supreme Court, risks taking us back a very dark and unpleasant past. The penchant of this movement to select historical ideas from the Medieval dark ages needs to be called out.
Dr. Gilbert, that was a joy to read! Thank you!
Christian Fundamentalism - Frightening stuff. One would have thought that humanity would have achieved adulthood after 300,000 years. Evidently it hasn't. That so many adults, who showing less comprehension or rationality than the average child, are able to hold such a strong influence, even control, of what other human beings can or can't do, without penalty, is beyond the pale.
Regardless of whether it was ever true or not, it now seems that it is certainly the case that it is a misnomer to speak of the USA as: '... The Land of the Free'.'
The Constitution was free from the "great awakening." God is not mentioned.
The Alabama court is an anomaly. Snopes was dramatized in Inherit the Wind. He that troubleth his own house shall inherit the wind: and the fool shall be servant to the wise of heart.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inherit_the_Wind_(1960_film)
So interesting that the religious right is consumed with moralism yet supports a man who has no morals as their leader of choice. A lying, cheating, law breaking rapist who encourages hatred and harm to those who do not bow to him is what scripture warns against. He is more Dathan than Moses or Jesus… encouraging his followers to ignore morals in the name of a golden calf.
DMSm your observation about the religious right is accurate but also proof that they aren't religious. Religion is simply a tool, a weapon to be wielded, to secure and guarantee personal authority and control over females and society. It is about making the world safe for them.
Trump is simply a tool, well he has transcended tool status to some form of Icon and saint, but only because he is their route to personal and societal hegemony.
I expect that one day they will deify or sanctify him, he has already positioned himself as a martyr, and none have objected.
The idea is not far fetched. Olaf Trygvasson, King of Norway has been sanctified as St Olaf.
He converted the Norwegians with the sword and brutal deaths, like forcing a viper down the throat. His nick name, outside of the church, is the Bloody Christianizing King of Norway.
Karl Magnus or Charlemagne is considered great and canonized in 1165, because he ruthlessly used the sword to Christianize Europe. In the Bloody Verdict of Verdun, on the bank of the river Meuse he had 4,500 Saxon men, women and children, beheaded because they rejected Christianity (meaning him) and worshiped Irmansul.
Bingo!
I concur 👍!
Many of their leaders are sex abusers as well.
Darrow knew perfectly well that the validity of the Theory of Evolution or the bible, or the justness of the law under which Scopes was charged, were irrelevant to the case against his client, and that all a local court like the one in Dayton, TN, could determine was whether or not Scopes broke the law as it stood on the books on the day he was accused of having broken it. Of that, Scopes was undeniably guilty, as the jury so found.
Darrow also knew that counsel for the prosecution would object to his every witness and argument for Evolution and against the bible, and that the judge was in league with the prosecution and would sustain every objection.
But Darrow persisted for one reason: the reporters and radio microphones that packed the courtroom. He wasn’t playing to the jury — what they would hear, and the verdict they would hand down, were preordained — but to the vastly larger court of public opinion that he expected to be moved by the news stories and radio transmissions issuing from that courtroom, and that that public — discomfited, if not outraged by laws passed in their name and advertised as being for their “protection” from radical ideas like Evolution — would pressure the State Legislature to revisit their law.
In the end, it was a strategy against which Bryan and a biased judge could not compete: Darrow’s conviction and calculation that, within any given population, there are more fair people than unfair, more compassionate people than cruel, more democratic than undemocratic, more wishing that they and their neighbors should be part of a just and honorable society.
I’d like to believe that in the ninety-nine years since that trial, those proportions haven’t changed much.
Avie, I am right there with you!! I, too, believe there are more fair than unfair, more compassionate than cruel, more Democratic then not, and most definitely more wanting a just and honorable society. What beautiful and powerful words!! Clarence Darrow was a forward thinker and an excellent lawyer! I hope whoever takes this to court will be like Darrow and get a verdict that says eggs and embryos are not viable humans and that women cannot be charged with manslaughter just because they had a miscarriage!
Agree !
But if a miscarriage is an “act
of God “ - wouldn’t God be
liable ? Some attorney could
frivolously file suit against
God almighty and might win
if some religious institution claimed to represent God on
Earth . Absurd I know .
Just sayin’
Well now, that is quite the take on all of it, Paul!! It is absurd but the GOP is absurd so who knows?
Exactly - just as it was absurd to
try a high school teacher for teaching
evolution in the 20 th century .
There is jury nullification when jurors refuse to follow a law they feel is unjust and acquit the defendant.
I was called to jury duty, and during the voire dire process, the defense attorney asked me a question. I don't recall the question, but do recall my answer: That I took my lead from Chief Justice Marshall, that the job of a jury is to determine law as well as facts, I was immediately excused from Jury duty.
Just as well. I was one year into sobriety (1990) and the defendant was charged with a DUI. It was a DUI that was responsible for my sobriety, and I would have had no sympathy at all for the defendant.
Bringing it up to date. Chief Justice Marshall's ruling is behind the rulings of SCOTUS, while he lower courts and prosecutors will not allow that argument that the judge and jury can rule on law as well as facts. That is the justification of SCOTUS for overturning all laws that have advanced civil rights.
SCOTUS defers to states rights in everything from abortion, to Gerrymandering, except when states rights interferes with their ideology of masculinity, religion and money. As in the the case under discussion.
I wish to know why Sotomayor, jackson and Kagan voted with the fascists? Did they strike a deal, if so then they should know better, the right doesn't honor its bargains, only if there is an advantage for them.
True, and that exact line of thought I heard an Assistant District Attorney use in court one week ago today during jury selection when I had been called for jury duty. About one quarter of the called pool thought an imaginative softening of the law was okay within limits.
Sadly, some state and federal judges allow the jury’s misread or misapplication of the law to stand. Worse yet, we now have a Supreme Court, whose justices serve as judge and jury, doing the same right up to effectively rewriting the Constitution and its Amendments.
And that’s exactly what they did for section 3 of the 14th amendment. No where in that section does it state who or what makes the interpretation of insurrection. Probably because at the time, it was self evident. It only says, any ruling of nullification can be made by a 2/3 vote by Congress. So now, there will be absolutely no way to stop any insurrectionist from running for office. Next up, the court will grant Trump immunity from criminal actions while in office. But then, wouldn’t that allow Biden to take out Trump as a national security threat? I don’t think they thought out that far.
The six injustices on the court will rule for a narrow scope limited immunity specific to TFG on January 6. Some rubbish such as exercise of first amendment rights or expressing administration policy on voting rights. It will be a twisted pretzel the likes of which has never been seen that no amount of mustard could make tasty, just lots of salt for our wounds.
I couldn’t agree more.
I fear they'll time it so the ruling comes after Trump is in by whatever means, not expecting another election in 4 years.
Great review. And a great topic. I hadn't realized that Scopes actually lost. Yet the absurdities that Darrow exposed were huge.
I don't believe in the "rapture" but, if it were a true event, I do wish it would happen now at least to those who believe it.
Hahahahaha! Pilotusa, if the 'rapture' occurred this very moment, those you wish to be gone, unfortunately, would still be here!!
I have to ask, how many times has Christianity told us the world is coming to an end on this date or that date, and nothing ever happens? Does not the Bible tell us that one should not, and I paraphrase, predict the end times? One would think, that with so much repetition on the subject over time, that believers would be skeptical by now. And that would cause one to ask, is what I am being told about religion in general really true? But that takes a rational thinker. When one has strong beliefs, it’s hard to shake them to wake up.
“bigots and ignoramuses” are not fast learners.
It’s an on going assault.
Don't hold your breath, pilotusa.
“Will god rid of these people! “ take them . lol
This Supreme Court has obliterated the separation between the Church and the State and many of the lower courts are doing the same. Our constitution is being blatantly violated by the very legal establishment that, in part, was designed to protect it.
If the natural process is an extension of God, then God kills fertilized eggs, embryos and fetuses rampantly.
Yes. Contradiction is rampant in religious interpretation, as is selective extraction to suit the argument.
Couldn’t have said it better.
Remember the story of the flood? God killed all the animals on the Earth and every man woman and child. I can see all the fetuses floating on the water until they're eaten by the sharks that Noah did not put on his so-called boat that he in no way could have ever built and in no way could have he ever have added all those animals into. Fantasy and fairy tales directly from the Bible. Now if they were saying that there might have been a flood in some area and some people and animals escaped on Noah's boat then that could very well be true. But, to claim this was some kind of cataclysmic inundation that somehow God appeared by saving all the animals then we find ourselves in silly land. Possibly so many of them smoking some opium in other words before they wrote Noah's flood story.
But, we still have to remember that this is a story from the Hebrew Bible. What are Christians doing quoting it? After all throughout history they have dislike the Jews. Oh before I forget Jesus was a Jew. At any rate if they dislike the Jews so much then why are they quoting from their book? It's not there effing book. Christian's knock it off.
Who says “natural processes are an extension of God?” This is not what Christians believe
Honestly I don't think any 2 Christians believe the same thing. My logic here was if God created man, then God created the natural biological processes that are how we function, but if you would like to explain to me how your view differs from that I will read it, providing its not ridiculously long.
Well that’s very nice but millions of Christians worldwide believe the same exact thing. Only a few modern, fringe and/or more liberal denominations differ on the core tenants of Christianity. One of these core tenants is that, the Bible plainly and irrefutably states, sin entered the world through Adam because he disobeyed God. The entire point of Christ’s atoning sacrifice was that His obedience covers our inability to ever perfectly obey God.
That’s what all Christians believe. If they don’t, by definition they are not Christians. It’s not a nebulous, subjective belief system. What I just described is what is detailed in the New Testament scriptures that the religion is based on.
Agree with Christianity or no, it still has a clear definition.
Well that’s very nice but I never meant to suggest no 2 Christians believe any same things. There are many branches of the Christian church (Catholic, Protestant, Episcopalian, Baptist, Mormon to name a few) and many disagree with others, but this all seems off topic. You said Christians don't believe "natural processes are an extension of God", I explained my logic that it seems to me Christians probably universally believe that God created man (mankind, including women) and that would include "the natural biological processes that are how we function". If there's something in your most recent post that contradicts my logic I'm missing it. May peace be with you.
From the disaster of reversing Roe vs Wade to another - eggs are live people! Give us a break. Even animals know when to abort. And who gets the brunt of all this nonsense- families, but mostly women. The Christian Right is only being allowed to try to have it their way because of the Republicans. There is nothing wrong with reading, studying or trying to decipher the Bible (a complicated book for sure), but let’s remember one reason Europeans came over here was to escape the church that was so controlling. We are not a Christian nation. Our religion is free to choose. It’s quite obvious how religion does not mix, in fact is destructive, that’s why our forefathers kept it separate from politics - period! Believe in religion as you wish, but don’t push it on others.
The Christian right wants to apply the death penalty to women who don't behave as they are told to. This is not an act of God this is an act of and sick minds. They want to apply the Christian dominionist Sharia law against everyone and turn our country into Spain of 1492 enacting a follow-up to the Spanish Inquisition by starting the American Inquisition. Have they no shame? I ask. Have they no decency?
“Those were the days when the U.S. Supreme Court was a bulwark against the fundamentalist right and could be counted on to buttress the wall between church and state.”
And there in lies the rub. The fanatics make up two-thirds of the current Supreme Court!
I’m Jewish, and the Hebrew God was the most demonic, sadistic and genocidal of all the gods:
Sadism: The Book of Job
Genocide: Noah’s Ark, the ten plagues, including the death of every first born male in Egypt.
Sexual Deviance: Sodom and Gomorrah
Need I say more?….:)
To me, formerly a member of that bar, the whole (danmn) thing would be different if DOJ would have investigated Ginny Thomas. https://hartmannreport.com/p/is-it-time-to-hold-possible-co-conspirator-035?utm_source=post-email-title&publication_id=302288&post_id=142189289&utm_campaign=email-post-title&isFreemail=false&r=zc69i&triedRedirect=true&utm_medium=email
Here's what I said at that time. Thom identified Eastman as Number 2. Although Eastman denied correspondence about issues that might "come before the Court," he refused to produce his documents before he was forced to do so. A Dec. 4, 2020 email from Ginni Thomas asked him to speak to a gathering she called “Frontliners,” which she described as featuring “grassroots state leaders.” She was listed as an administrator of a Facebook group that goes by a similar name and description: “FrontLiners for Liberty.” The group’s pages were removed from public view after CNBC reached out to Thomas about the organization. Every member is a potential witness. I wonder how many were fake electors?
Was she using official SCOTUS email?
Here's what I said, previously.
1. It's still not too late to file charges against the low hanging fruit -- Navarro, Bannon, Flynn, Scott Perry, Gym Jordan, Giuliani, Paul Gosar, etc. How about Ginny Thomas? None are immune.
2. The immunity defense does not work in civil cases. https://www.theusconstitution.org/litigation/blassingame-v-trump/
Guerilla tactics like attacking bar licenses may be effective.
Clarence Thomas was admitted to the Missouri bar in 1974 and became an Assistant Attorney General of the State of Missouri the same year. https://ballotpedia.org/Watchdog_group_POE_calls_for_disbarment_of_Clarence_Thomas
On January 6th, it was noted by a reporter on television that Ginny Thomas had paid to charter busses to take people to the Capitol. I never heard more about that. At the time I wondered why she would do that. I also remembered seeing Trump invite Clarence Thomas into a room in the white house from the Barrett swearing in ceremony in what appeared to be a private conversation. I agree with Hartmann that she and other conspirators should be charged.
Daniel I would have immediately start dancing on my rooftop and playing loud music to disturb my neighbors if that were to happen. I would be the happiest camper in the world. But what do you think the chances of that happening really are?
No clue.
Frontline (on PBS here) has a bio. of Clarence Thomas that is very well done...for those of us without detailed knowledge of the law.
Interesting to me, as a Missouri resident. I did not know he was an asst AG.
Do you follow Fred Wellman?
Check out rural urban bridge initiative zoom sessions
Yes.
"Sexual Deviance: Sodom and Gomorrah"
The prophet Ezekiel (Yechezkel) describes the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah not as sexual deviancy but cruelty to the stranger and the poor. (16:49). You see, the men of those places used gang rape on unwelcome visitors to send a message to others -- rather than build a Wall.
I like to say that our civilly liable rapist employs "Sodomite cruelty" in his immigration policies. And it's a wonder to behold how the bible-thumpers go along.
the term "sodomite" needs to be stricken from 21st century vocabulary
And "womb" which is archaic biblical, not scientific.
True, but that’s one interpretation. The evangelicals use it in the sexual deviant way.
That said, I do agree with you….:)
Who wants to have children in a society that is dumb, scary, right winged radical racist religious zealots . Mine are 34 and 27 and neither have no interest. The end of civilization in a different way.
so painful for those of us who would love the be grandparents
I have two one is now 43 and the other one is 36. Both have declared no children and both have said look around.
I would like to see what that Alabama judge give his judgement in front of the 400,000 women in the US military. Better yet to Tammy Duckworths face. Did religion tell this judge to take a womans rights away? Or was it the Republican party? He and they are using religion as the excuse to subjugate women solely to enforce a white male dominated christian nationalist state (See Southern Poverty Law Center) or here on NPR https://www.npr.org/2024/02/27/1233968467/alabama-supreme-court-ivf-treatment-christian-nationalist
Can you see women in jail for taking control over their inherint right as human beings to control their bodies? "What are you in for?" "I killed my husband, how about you?" "I took a contraceptive". Vote these fundamentalists out.
It has been happening
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/sep/19/steep-rise-criminalizing-pregnant-people-during-roe-report
I was not aware. Thank you for the information. From the article the way that the law is being applied is against the poor. I would suspect it is also being applied unequally along racial lines as well (though the article mentioned nothing of that). Who needs the Gilead for mysoginstic governments that treat women like things instead of people. It is already in place in the south.
Actually it has been in place in the US all my life. It had gotten better, hope for incorporating the ratified ERA into the Constitution, hope for equal pay, recognition that women’s body’s are significantly different than men’s and drugs should not be tested on men and then assumed they will work the same on women, hope for equal pay and representation in government and in business, hope of being believed when sexually assaulted. Dis you know the leading caus of death for pregnant women was homocide? https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/hsph-in-the-news/homicide-leading-cause-of-death-for-pregnant-women-in-u-s/
My family, church, and culture in the small town I grew up in made it very clear that I was inferior to a man and was born to support a husbands success and have his children. As these deceptions and betrayals become more challenged I had more hope, but I have never felt so hated by my country just for being born female as I have since the court reversed Roe, and renewed all the Gilead lies. It is heartbreaking and does a huge disservice not just to woman, but also to men who want the opportunities to also experience being fully human
And if these women cannot see the error of their ways, then by golly, why are they allowed to vote? I say be on guard for anything.
This is remeniscent of the Underground railroad and free states. In this situation women are being secreted out of states for IVF or abortion procedures. On the free states side the southern states had made laws in the federal government to allow reclaimation of slaves with next to no reprocussions to the person kidnapping blacks and sending them back to slave states. Now states are making laws so if a women goes out of state for a procedure she can still be prosecuted. That is very similar. This of course implies that women are slaves. Considering how stringent these laws are getting I fail to see the distinction. 50% of each states population are women. In the south it was 31% slaves. Add up all the minorities whose rights are also being attacked and I would think that number of oppressed people is 80%.
If anyone believes that 'Original Sin' began with Eve eating that 'apple' as prompted by the 'Serpent, they are willfully blind and ignorant of the whole nature of creation. Understanding comes with the knowledge that everything in creation is a duality. The clue is in the Genesis phrase, "Let us make man in our own image". Sounds rather plural to me, indicating that our creator, may be one entity with a dual, intricately, intertwined, nature – masculine and feminine. This might explain why everything must be a balance of good and evil, dark and light, hot and cold, micro and macro, life and death.
When Man on his own decided to to forcibly excise his feminine component and by extension the original matriarchal goddess centered society, women lost their power as equal creators and arbiters of the laws that should guide human civilization. The feminist, Betty Friedan was onto the right path when she declared the power of women to claim their just treatment in society. Although many good women still promote her ideas, It will take the continuing, massive effort to regain the power we once had to make this world a better place.
Though it's a well written fantasy, author Naomi Alderman's book, 'The Power' offers some interesting ideas. The TV adaptation of the book was pretty good too.
Women are more likely to be pro-life than men.
The most radical anti-abortion statements I've heard have come from the mouths of women.
It's not right for a man to claim to speak for women as you do here.
I speak for women in the case of abortion by getting out of the way and letting women make their own choices. The only way to do that for a man is to be pro-choice. In that way a woman can choose to be pro life or pro choice. When the laws hold strict regulations against abortion a women has no choice and her rights are violated.
You EDITED your comment remove the late term abortion comment? Your an ahole.
I can add it here. I stand by it. I removed it 4 hours before you posted any reply. I also thought (on second thought) that including it in the original post was inappropriate because it didn't match with anything in your original post.
Aborting a baby that can survive a c-section is murder. This is self-evident. Killing the baby after c-section is murder, and killing the child before removing it is not morally different.
And this proves that saying abortion should not be limited because of people's "inherent right to control their own body" is wrong. Instead the interests of the mother and child should both be weighed.
Democrats and Republicans are both hypocrites. If Republicans actually cared about babies, they would fund healthcare for babies. If Democrats actually cared about female autonomy, they would facilitate early C-sections. Sure it harms the health of the child, but you're not killing anything, and the will of the mother goes above all, right??
But just as Republicans only care about oppressing people, Democrats only care about killing babies.
C-sections are dangerous, especially in many cases where the woman is experiencing eclampsia, high fever, and sepsis. putting a women under anesthesia in certain conditions increases her chances of death. This latest nonsense pushed by the anti-abortion movement is ignorant and causing harm to pregnant women. Men should not be pushing this harmful agenda.
You've got a point that as a man maybe I shouldn't push this topic. That women are in a better position to weigh the pros and cons.
Still I've got good, female, pro-life friends. And your post triggered me because you disenfranchise them.
I am on this forum, I read your post, and they are not here. Should I remain silent, and leave them undefended?
If we are to leave this topic to the women, you should not vote pro-choice. And you especially should not insinuate that all women agree with your views on abortion. Many of them do not.
My only point was that you were giving incorrect information about C-sections being a one-size fits all alternative to abortion care for high risk, late stage pregnancy complications. Especially because I have witnessed the anguish and pain of women (and their husbands and families) who had miscarriages, stillbirths, and almost lost their lives in risky pregnancies. As a mother and grandmother, I have celebrated new life as well. Each woman made choices for themselves. Neither government nor church organizations should dictate what a grown woman or a grown man should do for their health situation. That is what Pro Choice is all about. And it’s extremely arrogant to tell me not to vote prochoice.
As a retired surgical assistant what you call a “late term abortion” is done because the fetus is incompatible with life, usually massively deformed like with intestines on the outside, cranial issues like the brain not forming. They were very much wanted children. No surgeon would abort a healthy fetus after viability. The anti abortion crowd has been lying about that for decades. Their ignorance is astounding and harmful to the women that need those procedures.
I am aware that in many (most?) jurisdictions the legislation regarding late-term is entirely sensible. In my own jurisdiction late-term abortions only occur when the fetus isn't viable, or when it is necessary to safe-guard the life of the mother. And the law doesn't and shouldn't micro-manage doctors.
I have three reasons for mentioning late term abortions.
Firstly:
I have never heard an official Democrat state that (s)he thinks there should be any kind of limits on abortion. It would be reassuring if even a few Democrats could state publicly that we don't need to worry about late term abortions becoming more prevalent, that they don't want abortion to become legal at every time and for every reason. But none of them have. Or at least, I haven't heard from it if it happened. There must be a reason?
In addition to this, progressives use extremist language. "Women are sovereign over their bodies, and therefore abortion should not be limited." Implying that the child is part of the woman's body until it is born. Saying that people deserve to be sovereign over their genes. etc. Arguments that, if taken literally, would imply that a woman should be able to commit abortion at any time and for any reason.
I've read an article in the Guardian attacking the decision for persecuting a woman who committed a late-term abortion on herself (via poisoning herself I believe), because the author (and editor?) of the article believed no-one should ever be persecuted for abortion. So some people really do believe these arguments.
Now you might say that allowing abortion at any time and for any reason is far-fetched and I shouldn't worry about it. I would like to agree, but I would have thought the same would apply to declaring that life legally begins at conception. Which just happened.
The second reason is that late-term abortions form a useful litmus test for pro-choice arguments. If the argument implies that late-term abortions should be allowed without medical necessity, the argument must be flawed.
The third reason is that in quite a few jurisdiction relatively minor medical issues are sufficient reason to qualify for a late-term abortion. I fully believe that this wasn't the case where you work. But I've heard from a doctor in Britain when I was there (2016?) that at that time Down Syndrome was enough to justify a third-trimester abortion in his hospital, and it was hard on him. Since then a woman has sued the British government to end the exception for Down syndrome. The judge ruled that this was a matter for parliament to change, because no rule was being broken. But the rhetoric of pro-abortion "progressives" in relation to this case was scary.
British parliament literally can't have a discussion about the reasonable bounds of abortion without pro-abortion extremists ruining it.
It is very simple. Pregnancy is far too complicated to legislate, again Gyn doctors go to school for 11-15 years to be the highly trained professionals that they are. No untrained person should inject their ignorance into another's healthcare decisions. What you term "Late--term abortions and why you obsess on something that is 1 % of all abortions, that are done under the most tragic of circumstances, wanted children that development goes terribly wrong, those women deserve your sypathy, not legislation that imperils their life, and could kill them too. I don't understand why you think they would become more prevalent, unless you realize that these forced-birthing laws will result in more unhealthy incompatible with life fetuses. The forced-birth laws, because that is what they are, the anti-choice people have been broadcasting they are going after contraception next.
To adress your points:
1. Many democratic representives (democrat is a slur used by the propagandists) believe many different things, some are okay with limits, and a few are even anti-choice, We believe the woman should have a CHOICE to keep their pregnancy, or not, we understand poverty and having children aleady to feed, can contribute to a decision that is theirs, and only theirs to make. We do not force anyone to have an abortion, but support the decisions of those to keep their pregnancy and see it through. We are not a monolith like the republicans (mostly) are. There is no agreement on limits, and medically trained persons like myself understand why. Things can go horribly wrong and some conditions such as Trisomy 18 don't show up until after 15- 20 weeks of pregnancy, There are many other examples.
To quote Jessica Valenti a researcher that studies legal actions taken in ignorance on pregnancy specifically she is writing about Kate Cox:"
"Imagine what this kind of cruelty and confusion looks like on a national level: About 120,000 pregnancies are diagnosed with fetal abnormalities every year, and congenital malformations are responsible for thousands of infant deaths per year."
Are Republicans prepared for a country where thousands or tens of thousands of women are suing for the right not to be treated as “walking coffins”? Do they understand what it will mean when local hospital NICUs are overloaded with dying babies, or what it will do to communities as families go bankrupt from medical costs and baby funerals? Will they be buying stock in infant burial gowns?
Even if conservatives do allow abortions in pregnancies with fatal abnormalities—telling us how generous they are to do so—the nightmare won’t end, and women will still have to beg for care: Parents will have to show that a baby born without a skull is, in fact, going to die. Or that their daughter’s condition constitutes being “lethal” even though she’ll survive a few days rather than a few hours.
People who might otherwise be able to grieve and recover at home in peace will still be treated to lawyers and courtrooms. Can someone show me where the ‘pro-life’ part is in all of this?
There’s a reason that Cox’s story has attracted national and international attention. The whole world truly has been watching the cruelty of abortion bans in real time. But what’s happening in Texas isn’t some unthinkable outlier—it’s the reality in half the country. And conservatives are planning for a rapid expansion everywhere else."
In October, I published an investigation into how the anti-abortion movement is quietly spending millions of dollars on new initiatives for ‘prenatal counseling’ and ‘perinatal hospice care’. This isn’t a coincidence. These groups are working to change legislation, medical norms, patient care and more—all in the service of pressuring and forcing American women to carry doomed pregnancies to term. They’ve prepared for cases like Cox’s, and they’re not planning on backing down.
As the saying goes: None of the suffering we’re seeing is a bug—it’s a feature. Most insulting of all, Republicans want to sell us that suffering a ‘compromise’, as if they’re doing us a favor.
https://jessica.substack.com/p/calculated-cruelty-texas-edition
#2 No one in the mainstream democratic party says this that I am aware of and again, we are all individuals with minds and reasons of our own. We live in reality, as the poster above replied to you. It is not a part of the official party platform, and to extrapolate that opinion as representing all, is a huge strawman. I have explained the realty of abortions done after the second trimester. No one purposefully waits until the fetus is highly developed to decide arbitrarily to get an abortion, third trimester abortions are far more expensive and very few GYN surgeons will even do them, and not without a serious fatal anomaly, or risk to the health of the mother. (Oddly enough they are responsible citizens, who don't want to be sued.) Also it involves getting an appointment and travelling which rules out all poor women. Only a well-to-do person could even afford it. I don't know why that particular propaganda appeals to so many as it is so far from the truth.
3. "Minor medical issues!" Dude no one in the United States especially now under the draconian abortion bans we have in the redder states is doing anything for minor medical issues. Downs syndrome is a very major health issue, that requires lifetime care as they cannot take care of themselves enough to lead an independent, autonomous life. and they often can outlive you. Okay if you are willing to take that on, but what happens to them after you die? They are vulnerable to abuse from anyone you would ask to care for them.
Wait why are we even discussing th UK the conversation is about the US. You are moving the goal posts now. Yet another strawman. I explained the reality we women, and those that love and support us have to deal with. I gave you the truth. Be well and try to understand the real issues not the emotional appeals that are lies.
I am 73. When I was 22 I was told by my mother that she would not watch "Inherit the Wind" with her favorite actor, Spencer Tracy, because it was about the Scopes trial.
It was on that day that I realized my mother and father believed that the Earth was 6000 years old, that the fossils I had cleaned on the kitchen table when I was 12 had been put in the ground by Satan to "confuse us".
My mother and father never pressed their version of religion on me, only concerned that I grow up to be a kind and moral man.
I thank them every day for having as much faith in me as they had in their god.