Let’s just hope prosecutors have the guts to stand up and put him behind bars where he belongs! It’s clear he is an habitual criminal! He exemplifies everything we teach our children NOT to become. Actually, that fact should be enough to put him on the FBI’s most wanted list! If the DOJ can’t get this done then we are in more trouble than I imagined.
IMHO it's important to remember that on 1/7 both McConnell and McCarthy gave speeches condemning Trump for the insurrection. If it gets to trial, those speeches are the first pieces of evidence I'd use.
It will come out Wednesday what will be sent to DOJ. I hope it's not a roadmap to Trump how to defend. I don't know that the Committee has all the evidence.
In my experience, the FBI and or the Federal Police and or the DC police would have taken witness statements on 1/6 that DOJ already has. Every member of Congress, every staff member, White House employee, and all the cops involved were eyewitnesses.
Unmentioned are the potential charges for lesser included crimes like perjury -- which is easy to prove, obstruction of justice, etc.
A friend sent the following witness list:
REPUBLICANS:
● John McEntee (served as Director of the White House Presidential Personnel Office in the Trump Administration)
● Judd Deere (served as deputy assistant to the President and White House deputy press secretary in the administration of Donald Trump)
● Jared Kushner (served as a senior advisor to President Donald Trump)
● Pat Cipollone (served as White House Counsel for President Donald Trump)
● Eric Herschmann (served as a senior advisor to former President Donald Trump)
● Kayleigh McEnany (served the administration of Donald Trump as the 33rd White House press secretary from April 2020 to January 2021)
● Derek Lyons (served as White House Staff Secretary and Counselor to the President in the administration of former U.S. President Donald Trump)
● Cassidy Hutchinson (assistant to former Chief of Staff Mark Meadows during the Trump administration)
● Matt Pottinger (served as the United States deputy national security advisor)
● Ben Williamson (senior advisor to chief of staff Mark Meadows)
● Sarah Matthews (served as the deputy press secretary for the Trump administration)
● William Barr (served as Attorney General for the Trump administration)
● Mike Pompeo (served as the director of the Central Intelligence Agency and as the 70th United States Secretary of State for the Trump administration)
● Ivanka Trump (served as a senior advisor and director of the Office of Economic Initiatives and Entrepreneurship for the Trump administration)
● Donald Trump Jr. (eldest child of Donald Trump)
● Molly Michael (served as Special Assistant to the President and Oval Office Operations Coordinator)
● Tim Murtaugh (served as director of communications for President Donald J. Trump’s re-election campaign)
● Richard Donoghue (served as the acting United States deputy attorney general)
● Jeffrey Rosen (served as the acting United States attorney general from December 2020 to January 2021)
● Steven Engel (served as the United States Assistant Attorney General for the Office of Legal Counsel in the Trump administration)
● Marc Short (served as chief of staff to Vice President Mike Pence)
● Greg Jacob (served as White House lawyer to former Vice President Mike Pence)
● Keith Kellogg (served as National Security Advisor to the Vice President of the United States)
● Chris Hodgson (served as director of legislative affairs for Vice President Mike Pence)
● Douglas Macgregor (former advisor to the Secretary of Defense in the Trump administration)
● Jason Miller (served as spokesman for the Donald Trump 2016 Presidential Campaign and was a Senior Adviser to the Trump 2020 Re-election Campaign)
● Alex Cannon (an attorney for Donald Trump)
● Bill Stepien (served as the Campaign manager for Donald Trump's 2020 Presidential Campaign and was the White House Director of Political Affairs in the Trump administration from 2017 to 2018)
● Rudolph Giuliani (an attorney for Donald Trump)
● John Eastman (an attorney central to the Electoral College election theories to overturn the results of the election)
● Michael Flynn (served as former National Security Advisor for the Trump Administration)
● Eugene Scalia (served as the United States secretary of labor during the final 16 months of the Donald Trump administration)
● Matthew Morgan (Deputy Assistant to the Vice President and Deputy Counsel)
● Sidney Powell (served on President Trump’s legal team to overturn the results of the 2020 election)
● Jeffrey Clark (former United States Assistant Attorney General for the Civil Division)
● Cleta Mitchell (served on President Trump’s legal team to overturn the results of the 2020 election)
● Ronna Romney McDaniel (serving as the chair of the Republican National Committee)
● Justin Clark (served as Director of Public Liaison and Director of Intergovernmental Affairs at the White House under the Trump administration)
● Robert Sinners (a former campaign staffer for Donald Trump)
● Andrew Hitt (Former Wisconsin Republican Party Chair)
● Laura Cox (Former Michigan Republican Party Chair)
● Mike Shirkey (Majority Leader, Michigan State Senate - Republican)
● Bryan Cutler (Speaker, Pennsylvania House of Representatives - Republican)
● Rusty Bowers (Arizona House Speaker - Republican)
● Brad Raffensperger (Georgia Secretary of State - Republican)
● Gabriel Sterling (Georgia Secretary of State Chief Operating Officer - Republican)
● BJay Pak (Former United States Attorney for the Northern District of Georgia)
● Al Schmidt (Former City Commissioner of Philadelphia)
● Chris Stirewalt (Former Fox News Political Editor)
● Benjamin Ginsberg (Election Attorney)
● J. Michael Luttig (Retired judge for the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Fourth Circuit and informal advisor to Vice President Mike Pence)
● Katrina Pierson (served as a liaison for the White House and organizers at Donald Trump’s “Save America” rally on January 6)
● Nicholas Luna (Former President Donald Trump’s personal assistant in the White House)
● Stephen Miller (Senior Advisor to the President)
● Vincent Haley (Deputy Assistant to the President and Advisor for Policy, Strategy and Speechwriting)
● Julie Radford (Ivanka Trump’s Former Chief of Staff)
● Mick Mulvaney (Former Chief of Staff and Special Envoy for Northern Ireland for the Trump administration)
● Elaine Chao (Former Transportation Secretary)
● Roger Stone (Trump associate)
DEMOCRAT:
● Jocelyn Benson (Michigan Secretary of State - Democrat)
OTHERS:
● U.S. Capitol Police Officer Harry Dunn
● DC Metropolitan Police Officer Michael Fanone
● U.S. Capitol Police Sgt. Aquilino Gonell
● DC Metropolitan Police Officer Daniel Hodges
● General Mark Milley (chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff)
● U.S. Capitol Police Officer Caroline Edwards
● Nick Quested (award-winning British filmmaker)
● Robert Schornack (Sentenced to 36 months probation)
● Eric Barber (charged with theft and unlawful demonstration in the Capitol)
● John Wright (awaiting trial for felony civil disorder and other charges)
● George Meza (Proud Boy)
● Daniel Herendeen (sentenced to 36 months probation)
● Jody Williams (Former Owner of TheDonald dot win)
● Dr. Donell Harvin (Former Chief of Homeland Security, DC)
● Kellye SoRelle (Oath Keepers General Counsel)
● Shealah Craighead (Former White House Photographer)
● Jason Van Tatenhove (Former Oath Keepers Spokesperson)
● Stephen Ayres (January 6th Defendant)
● Sgt. Mark Robinson (Ret.) (D.C. Metropolitan Police Department)
● Janet Buhler (Pleaded guilty to charges related to January 6th
Add all the fake state electors, All members of Congress. All Congressional staffers. How about "Mother" Pence? "Daughter" Pence? Clarence Thomas (His wife used his office account)?
I have been critical of Garland. Plenty of low hanging fruit. IMHO if he wanted to build a case, he'd have started with some easy prosecutions for stuff like obstruction and perjury.
Many of the Trump lawyers fabricated evidence in the state appeals, have been sanctioned, and some, like Giuliani, lost their law licenses.
I was disappointed by Mueller. Some of his charges - obstruction - remain viable against Trump. Apparently he has problems besides Bill Barr.
Thank goodness for the Georgia grand jury - but so far no charges.
I'm also disappointed with the DC Attorney General. 5 dead. Why were no felony murder charges filed.
The truth is, we don't know what kind of duress Mueller was under during the process of due diligence. Trump is a mobster with plenty of henchmen to do his dirty work. In this case, no one can override the list of offenses laid out by the Committee. And what about the Justice Jack Smith appointed to preside over the theft of classified documents? If anyone could nail Trump, this guy can! Trump is F**ked!!! Yay!!!
It's difficult to file felony murder charges when at least two deaths were suicides, one was from a stroke (Officer Sicnik) with tenuous connection to his injuries at the riot and Ms. Babbitt's death was from a gunshot from a protector of the Congress. One death in the crowd was from a heart attack.
OMG! Daniel, What a list! I recognized most of the names and am aware of the crimes many have been accused of, but to see them all in one place! If the DOJ doesn't already have this list, they have it now. It is sad though that participants in January 6th have been given such light almost non-sentences. Most of us who follow this do understand the racist nature of the way the January 6th attack went down. In a protest in Wisconsin, a white man with a gun killed 2 and injured 1 and was acquitted. The protest there was about injustice against Black Americans by police, so it was OK that a white boy felt scared and killed. In the Capitol, the attackers were nearly 100% white trying to overturn an election and take over our government on behalf of a white guy who claimed a victory that was not his. The law enforcement was restrained even in the face of weapon-bearing attackers. As they sit for trial, juries are sympathetic again for the white boys and men (and some women) who "were just following their leader's demands." I know everyone knows that if the Capitol attackers had been Black, the death count would have been far higher than 5. We need the DOJ to prosecute, but also for juries to be broad enough that the sympathy vote can be called out for what it is, nonsense.
I would double down on the issue that overwhelms all of this. We the people , this is our government, and we must stand strong and not accept any outcome that isn’t “behind bars “ for Trump and all his enablers. If we do not DEMAND that , we will all lose our faith in how our government was set up to protect us by LAW. Losing faith in our own government and all the agencies that are there in place to protect and to
Improve the lot of every American is a death knell to Democracy.
We must stand up , hold hands and march across America chanting “ no one is above the law”! Now prove it!!
We have tolerated this before. Letting money and power make up the stories that protect criminals.
Let’s make this the test we stand up for our very own government by demanding those working for us do the immediate and absolutely the right thing . America is “we the people”.
Take it back or forever get shoved aside on every important issue.
Merry Christmas, but even more: Will it be a Happy And Different New Year?
That is up to us.... feel the power fellow Americans!
The House should suspend the 4 members -- especially Scott Perry and Gym Jordan -- implicated by the Committee. I'd say that number should include those implicated in the Meadows' emails.
After having finished listening to Maddow's "Ultra" podcast it seems all the more imperative that we don't sweep anti-democracy traitors within our government under the rug ever again. (Particularly when gerrymandering has insulated so many of them from being thrown out on their ear at the ballot box too)
We've already made that mistake too many times, and all it really served to do was embolden people like this.
Jean, yes, it is We the People who are responsible to see that the criminals of the Trump administration and the January 6th insurrection are fully held accountable. It is hard for us to do anything together these days, but I hope we can figure out how to push the DOJ into prosecuting and juries into paying attention to the facts and the law, not to the belief that a lot of the attackers, the criminals are "good-looking white boys who need another chance," or some other dismissal of the criminals and crimes.
Jean (Muriel), thank you for this stirring call to action. Unfortunately, there's not much we ordinary folks can do to insure criminal accountability for the Trump gang. We aren't likely to be holding hands and marching across the country.
But we are not powerless. We can do something about what happens next, specifically who becomes Speaker of the House in the new Congress. That vote is scheduled for January 3 -- two weeks from today.
I can't emphasize enough how urgent this moment is, and that we do have power as ordinary citizens to make a difference. We need our Democratic representatives in the House to use their 213 votes in support of a moderate Republican for Speaker. And we (you and I) can help make that happen.
On his substack broadcast "Coffee Klatch" last Saturday, Robert Reich said this:
"I think the Democrats ought to strike a deal and say . . . we will give you votes, in return for which we don't want you to kowtow to the Freedom Caucus..."
Mr. Reich is a seasoned veteran of political wars and he knows whereof he speaks. He recognizes the difficulty of doing this, but he also says "I think it could happen."
D's won't vote for R's unless they know they won't be punished for it back home. That's where we (specifically you and I) come in. Spreading this idea and growing public momentum for it is our job.
Please voice your support directly to Mr Reich (robertreich@substack.com), and contact everyone you can think of, especially news media personalities, to build momentum for his proposal before January 3. There should be conversations on MSNBC and CNN about why this is a good idea, and not let cynics convince us that it's a fantasy.
Together, we (again, specifically you and I) can make a real difference. There's no time to waste.
I did read Heather's letter today and was thrilled to see her mention Rep. Bacon's comment. Of course, I wrote right back to her, told her about our effort and asked her to join in. Mr. Bacon, by the way, speaks for a moderate / centrist caucus of several dozen Republicans who, he said, "are tired of being pushed around" by the Freedom Caucus.
There's a long way to go, but I think we're starting to get some traction. Thanks again for your help.
BTW, I appreciate the respect implied by your addressing me as Mr. Weiss (long live courtesy!). But pretty much everyone knows me as Jerry.
Looks like it's time to start lobbying the Dems to support a consensus candidate for Speaker. (Is there another way I can communicate with you than thru the cooments section?)
Jean, your sweet bedtime wish made my eyes well up. Amazing how powerful the most simple gesture can be! Thank you.
There's now only one week before the Speakership election, so tomorrow I'll be sending out my fourth apppeal to our advocacy group. It'll be a call to contact several Congresspeople by phone, urging them to support a moderate Republican for Speaker. If you'd like me to send you one, please let me know directly here: jaerandand@earthlink.net
Stephen, you are so right about a model for our kids. I suspect Trump and Kump remembered that nothing had happened to Nixon from his crimes. They were pretty sure they could get away with it too, and even have Trump run for president again. That is just crazy and needs to be stopped. Our Constitution says Trump should not be able to run for or serve in any elected office federal or state after involvement in an insurrection. Yo DOJ, it's time! Our kids need to see a good example of our government functioning equally for everyone. They haven't seen much of that in our history.
If it doesn't happen now, there will be no end in sight for this kind of political malfeasance. We need to set some precedents for this. We will not tolerate this.
Lee, you are right that we need to set precedents for what happens when a president and his minions commit crimes against our nation, our Constitution, and our institutions. Previously, those folks were pretty much let go or even pardoned ala Nixon and the guys who perpetrated Iran-Contra. Today's batch of crooks need to be indicted, prosecuted, and sentenced. I say, go with the crimes we know how to address like lying to Congress, stealing documents and aiding and betting. Then go for the crimes related to the insurrection, first, that Trump and Kump participated in planning the insurrection and did nothing to intervene which would keep Trump and his assistants from running for any office in the future and I hope getting some of them kicked out of Congress. Then, go for the big stuff that Trump incited a riot, got people killed and tried to stay in office when he lost and knew he lost. That should keep courts all over the country busy since there were so many participants around the country.
I agree, Ruth. It's not just that I want the guilty to be held accountable, what I seek is an end to this kind of behavior by anyone from either party. We need to clean up our government and this is the perfect time to set some meaningful precedents. It'll take some work but how we start will make all the difference.
Lee, I am not into vengeance politics as so many Republicans/conservatives are now, but I agree we need some meaningful precedents set with significant penalties in place when anyone goes on the wrong side of them. We also should do a far better job of vetting candidates for office. Right now, there is a guy, Santos in New York who lied about nearly everything related to his education and work life. Such information should have been learned before he was able to be on the ballot. I suspect the people who voted for him didn't know they were voting for a pathological liar, but they have him now, and he is a right-winger, of course. They may not care and are OK with anything else as long as they can guarantee he will move against our Constitution when called on to do it.
If they REFUSE, the NEXT insurrection WILL be 130,000% bloodier and more deadly. The violence and death will be on THEIR heads for being sniveling cowards.
It's not just that there was no evidence of fraud. That is stating the negative, defensive position. It is that there was overwhelming evidence of a free and fair election, from recount after recount, court case after court case, analysis after professional analysis. There was (and is) overwhelming proof that Donald Trump lost!
Dec 20, 2022·edited Dec 20, 2022Liked by Robert Reich
The compelling, indisputable evidence compiled by the Jan 6th House Committee aside, it would seem that holding Trump and his command structure criminally accountable would be critical to cementing the public’s trust both in our institutions and in the idea that no one is above the law. Anything less, in my view, could result in utter chaos.
Bill, I’m banking on Smith being both thorough and expeditious. Because we lost a year with Garland, a trial is not likely to be scheduled until 2024, an election year, unless Trump and the other ringleaders are indicted very early next year. I’m quite sure a trial scheduled in an election year would be postponed until after the election.
I hear you on the insurrection case ending up in 2024. But the stolen documents case could be prosecuted tomorrow. The idiot admitted his guilt more than once. The grifter is a gifter!
Bill, I agree and expect an indictment on the stolen documents by the end of December. Still, as nuts as it sounds, I’m quite sure Trump could still run, even if convicted.
Barbara Jo. Yes, waiting to indict would be bad. However, that not having a trial in an election year is just stupid (stupid is a choice). A crime is a crime and needs to be prosecuted. Before the actual trial, perhaps determining Trump's role in the January 6th insurrection would determine that Trump is ineligible to run for any federal or state office again, so whether or not the triale is in the election year would be irrelevant. Besides, Republicans make up stuff all the time. McConnell made up the rule that no Supreme Court justice should be considered during an election year, then changed it to push through the nomination of the less than mediocre Barrett a few weeks before the 2020 election. So, we need to drop that nonsense about election year anything and push forward. It really is time!
Ruth, While I empathize with your reasoning, as you know, unless or until convicted, an indicted individual is considered innocent before the law. Hence, only a conviction could establish, beyond reasonable doubt, “Trump’s role in the January 6th insurrection.” Thus, as stated, Trump and the other masterminds, as I understand, would be eligible to seek public office unless convicted for insurrection. Regrettably, Senate Republicans blew their chance to ensure Trump would be ineligible to seek public office when they failed, by a handful of votes, to convict him at his impeachment trial.
As for the more straightforward stolen documents case, while I expect indictment is imminent, as stated, I’m quite sure, even if convicted, Trump still would be eligible to run for office. I base this judgment on the fact that no provision exists in the Constitution that states otherwise.
Barbara Jo, yes, isn't that sad we have no specific mechanism for applying section 3 of the 14th amendment. It was pretty clearly stated, but unless a court declares Trump an insurrection mastermind, he can run. I do think that states can employ the 14th amendment and declare Trump ineligible to be on any ballot in their state. I suspect none will, though. This just proves if a toddler-man gets enough other toddlers to work for him, he can get around all the adults in the room.
Barbara Jo. You are right about this too. We need to find ways to pressure the DOJ into doing the right thing and indicting the whole crew (individually or in small groups), then fully prosecuting. No circus trials, just courts of law listening to and judging on the facts based on the law and the actions of those involved. It's time.
Ruth, While my heart agrees with you, my head tells me, because we lost a year with Garland, we’re not likely to see indictments of the command structure on insurrection, until at least March. There’s simply too much complex material, replete with incomplete knowledge, to imagine prosecutors could proceed quickly with indictments that would lead to convictions.
Barbara Jo, the sad part of this is that if Trump and Kump had been made up of Black Americans, the indictments would have already been handed down and the trials done or underway. The racism in our nation is so deep, it impacts everything that happens. The folks involved in the protests over George Floyd's murder have nearly all been prosecuted long ago and a kid who killed two people and injured another was acquitted long ago. A few of the low-level insurrectionists have been prosecuted, but the sentences have been pathetic. Trump already pardoned his cronies who helped in his criminal behavior in the White House and before, so nothing will come of that. His business was convicted, but he will suffer in no way from that either. He will let everyone else take the fall. I get it that Garland is supposedly trying to gather every tiny piece of information before indicting Trump, but when one has the full Department of Justice behind the investigation, it should have been completed by now. I am guessing Garland will fall back on the Nixon era attempt to squash future attempts to stop bad behavior on the part of presidents as his guide to stop any investigation, trial, etc. during an election year. That is nonsense, but lately, nonsense has been an important part of what is going on and that is just the way Trump and Kump like it.
Ruth, Call me naive, but I trust Special Counsel Jack Smith to recommend indictment if he believes he can deliver. Two points worth mentioning are 1) much of the evidence provided by the Select Committee is inadmissible in court and 2) Smith will need testimony from individuals who defied congressional subpoenas. He also likely will have to grant immunity to some of Trump’s command structure who took the 5th.
Yep, Barbara Jo, that is why I am pretty sure very little will happen. If testimony from the House Committee is inadmissible, there isn't much the DOJ is going to be able to do because what was presented was pretty damning. Those people who spoke and described, did it under oath. That should count for something, and Smith et al should be able to find a way to use it or have the people make the same statements again. I keep hoping the DOJ crew will be able to do something, but time is passing and . . . .
I hope you had an excellent holiday celebration with family and friends.
Ruth, I, too, hope that you and those you hold dear are taking time to enjoy one another throughout the holidays.
As for Special Counsel, while I believe the Select Committee’s report provides an extraordinarily helpful blueprint, because critical parts of it rely on indirect evidence, said testimony would be dismissed as hearsay in court. Additionally, because the evidence, prior to indictment, has been made public, the Defense has ample time to construct a possibly plausible counter narrative.
The foregoing notwithstanding, I do believe Trump and some of the other masterminds and ringleaders will be held criminally accountable on several measures.
Barbara Jo, you have pin-pointed the most crucial piece of all this: "cementing the public’s trust both in our institutions and in the idea that no one is above the law."
It's also what Jean (Muriel) was talking about in her stirring call to action above:
"Losing faith in our own government and all the agencies that are there . . . is a death knell to Democracy. . . . America is “we the people” . . . Take it back or forever get shoved aside on every important issue . . . That is up to us ... feel the power fellow Americans!"
There's not much we ordinary folks can do to insure criminal accountability for the Trump gang. We aren't going to be holding hands and marching across the country.
But we are not powerless. We can do something about what happens next, specifically who becomes Speaker of the House in the new Congress. That vote is scheduled for January 3 -- two weeks from today.
Jerry, Having reviewed your earlier exchanges with Jean and also those with Paul, as part of this thread, admittedly, I can’t imagine a better outcome than House Democrats arriving at an agreement with 5 so-called moderate Republicans that would preserve some semblance of regular order in the House.
Since I had not listened to Reich’s Saturday “Coffee Klatch,” I’ll start there. That said, knowing that without some plan, the republic is in grave danger, I intend to partner with individuals and groups working for more democracy (e.g., federal voter protections, D.C. / Puerto Rican statehood, big money out of politics, and the like).
Thanks, Barbara Jo. Actually, what's needed is for 100 or so Democrats to join with 120 or so Republicans to elect a compromise candidate who owes nothing to the MAGA faction. Getting just 5 R's to break ranks is almost impossible as they'd be seen as traitors complicit in a Democratic power grab.
Because the loudest voices get the most attention, people have the impression that there are more hard-core MAGA's than there really are. What we are advocating is for Democrats to join forces with Republican moderates like Rep. Don Bacon (R-NE) who has already signaled his willingness to "work with like-minded people across the aisle to find someone agreeable for Speaker."
I'd argue that the republic is already in grave danger. There is an imminent threat the third-highest ranking office in the country (next after the vice-president), may soon be occupied by someone who owes his position to organized white Christian nationalists.
This is happening right now. The vote is less than 2 weeks away, and the media is asleep. We have a plan, and we need everyone's help to implement it. Our immediate goal is to raise public awareness that a cross-party coalition is possible. That means contact everyone you can think of, especially news media personalities, so it becomes part of the public narrative.
We need conversations on MSNBC and CNN that focus on how to make this happen, and we can't let cynics convince us that it's a fantasy
Working for more democracy is an excellent overall ideal. But we have to act today because the republic is in grave danger today. Thanks so much for pitching in.
Jerry, Because I have doubts regarding the feasibility of creating the nearly split bipartisan coalition you claim is needed, I am pursuing an alternate plan. I’ve started compiling a list, beginning with the 2 House Republicans who voted for Trump’s Second Impeachment and held their seats: Rep. Dan Newhouse (R-Wash) and Rep. David Valado (R-Calif). I will add Rep. Don Bacon (R-NE) plus the 5 House Republicans, who, yesterday, voted in favor of requiring the IRS to conduct annual audits of the president’s tax returns.
The rest of my plan entails contacting both outgoing and incoming House Democratic leadership to urge, if not already underway, a behind-the scenes effort to amass 218 votes for an alternative to Kevin McCarthy, who will continue to cut whatever despicable deals he believes will get him the gavel.
Considering what we will continue to learn from the House Select Committee, I haven’t given up on the idea that a sufficient number of House Republicans will put country before party and reject Kevin McCarthy’s bid for Speaker in favor of a Republican who will retain some semblance of regular order.
I love your plan, Barbara. It's very focused and well thought out. Whatever the proportion of D's and R's may finally turn out to be, we share the same goal -- seeing that McCarthy is rejected in favor of a Republican committed to governing.
As the media continues to treat the Speakership struggle like a sporting event, it seems unlikely we'll see any serious conversations about this on TV over the next few days. That being the case, I'm shifting my efforts and will follow your lead to focus on specific Republican members. We can't beat someone with no one, and your list is a good place to start.
I've been worried all along that the Freedom Caucus members threatening to withhold their votes might abruptly change course once they've extracted as many concessions as they can from McCarthy. To counter that possibility, peeling off a half-dozen potential moderate votes is good strategy.
But I still think that it may be easier to get 100 votes than 5. Moderates by their very nature are, well, moderate and will be reluctant to act boldly. That 's why the best candidate would be one who comes with substantial support from colleagues.
When compiling your list, I'd suggest cross-refencing with membership in the Republican Governance Group: https://republicangovernance.com/ That's the group of about 40 or so moderates who Don Bacon was speaking for when he said "We're tired of being pushed around" by the Freedom Caucus.
Please keep me informed of your efforts (jerandand@earthlink.net), and let me know if there's any way I can help you. Meanwhile I'll keep urging Reps Bacon, Jeffries and Pelosi (who represents my SF district) to work together to keep the extremists at bay.
Jerry, I greatly appreciate your kind words plus your extraordinarily helpful reply. Moreover, with the Republican Governance Group membership in hand, I have far more confidence in the feasibility of trying to enlist a substantially larger block of so-called moderates.
That said, I did note Elise Stefanik hadn’t been removed, leading to some concern that the list, as initially compiled, might not reflect the current reality. Needless to say I’ll keep growing my list as I garner more information, for example, who votes to approve the $1.7 trillion omnibus bill to fund the government. The rest I’ll leave to Democratic leadership.
The MAGA crowd is extracting concession after concession from Kevin McCarthy as he desperately attempts to get enough votes to become Speaker. If he submits to them, far right extremists will effectively set the agenda for the next two years. Worse, they would wield power over the person next in line after Kamala Harris for succession to the presidency.
I can't emphasize enough how urgent this moment is, and that we do have power as ordinary citizens to make a difference. We need our Democratic representatives in the House to use their 213 votes in support of a moderate Republican for Speaker. And we (you and I) can help make that happen.
On his substack broadcast "Coffee Klatch" last Saturday, Robert Reich said this:
"I think the Democrats ought to strike a deal and say . . . we will give you votes, in return for which we don't want you to kowtow to the Freedom Caucus..."
Mr. Reich is a seasoned veteran of political wars and he knows whereof he speaks. He recognizes the difficulty of doing this, but he also says "I think it could happen."
D's won't vote for R's unless they know they won't be punished for it back home. That's where we (specifically you and I) come in. Spreading this idea and growing public momentum for it is our job.
Please voice your support directly to Mr Reich (robertreich@substack.com), and contact everyone you can think of, especially news media personalities, to build momentum for his proposal before January 3.
Together, we (again, specifically you and I) can make a real difference. There's no time to waste.
we cannot "make a deal" with the repugnants. they will lie and steal, cheat, manipulate, and continue to destroy democracy. Dr. Reich should know better. I agree with him 99,9% of the time, but this is not a good idea.
Believe me, Paul, I totally understand your reaction. But please take a beat, and think this through.
Not all Republicans are alike. As Mr. Reich explains, there is a civil war going on in their party. Only about 40% of House Republicans are hard-core MAGA's. The rest are normal Chamber of Commerce / Rotary Club types, like Don Bacon of Omaha. You've never heard of them, but their priority is a maintaining a stable, functioning free-market society. You may not agree with them on any issue, but they're not crazies. Mr. Bacon, speaking for his centrist caucus, has indicated a willingness to work with Democrats to find a compromise candidate for Speaker. "We're tired of being pushed around (by the Freedom Caucus)", he said.
We all live in the same country, and we all have a stake in the outcome of this civil war. One side is seriously dangerous, and we need to marginalize them however we can.
Here's another analogy: If your neighbor's house is on fire, you lend a hand even if you disagree with them on everything else. Side benefit, you're protecting your own home as well.
Thank you Robert for the summation You are a true American. It is so frightening that things have gone this far and nothing has been done about this horrible assault on our democracy
We can prepare as many lists of umpty-ump events and evidence that detail Trump's culpability, but in the end, it's all meaningless chest-thumping.... UNLESS some judicial body _actually_ initiates proceedings against Trump. Even if the DOJ **does** start ptroceedings, you just know that the Republican Majority in the House WILL do everything in its power to terminate or stall the proceedings. And in the end, even if found Guilty, the appeal that goes to SCOTUS will most likely reverse the finding and lets Trump go scot-free.
Which just shows that in America, SOME (certain) people ARE "above the Law." If Trump was any other ordinary citizen, he would already have been in prison for almost two years, serving a 20-to-life sentence. And that's just because The System is soooo thoroughly rigged to protect people like Trump.
Ken, yes McConnell kind of did throw Trump under the bus, but he could have done the right thing and voted to convict him in the impeachment trial. McConnell is a coward and a self-seeker. It is unclear what he will say in a trial of Trump, with Trump sitting right there in front of him. Trump should have already been indicted for stealing documents from the White House as he was leaving, documents that clearly did not belong to him. There are already people in jail for taking less significant documents even if taking them was not intentional. For Trump and Kump, it was intentional and a few people knew about it and just went right on moving them to Trump's homes. Maybe that is the trial what should go first along with identifying Trump as the insurrection ringleader, and using the 14th amendment of our Constitution to make Trump ineligible to ever run for any office.
Pretty much ALL GOP legislators have demonstrated that, while sometimes criticizing Trump, have also declared that should Trump be on the ballot, they WOULD nevertheless vote for him. It seems that being Right is more important than doing the right thing.
DZK, good point. There are Trumpers and Trumpettes and Fox zombies everywhere. How can one weed them out and then wouldn't Trump's lawyers whine that there were no Trump supporters on the jury? It's crazy!
We have to acknowledge the conundrum, the proverbial two-ton gorilla. The USA is a country that does not persecute its former officeholders. It's a very short distance between prosecute and persecute. Yes, we have prosecuted members of Congress for various felonies and misdemeanors, but our Major Profile to the world is that our political practices must be seen as true without question. We do not go after former presidents. Anyone in the world will now see that we do, and our hard-earned lesson in decency to the rest of the world will have been removed from the miracle of democratic ascendency. This is what keeps Garland up at night. It's petty to complain about his slow-walking hesitancy. He has to get everything right, without leaving any room for some future precedent.
The conundrum, indeed. I appreciate your concern that "our Major Profile to the world is that our political practices must be seen as true without question." But that's just an image. It's an idealistic standard of perfection. I'll wager >nobody< in this old world believes US political practices are true without question - except some domestic patriotic fanatics - so trying to promulgate that standard is - to me - a bit of a canard at face value. Indeed, >history< certainly doesn't support it. I don't buy it for a hot second, and neither do you, otherwise you'd not be participating in this discussion group.
On the other hand, others in the world at large are clearly paying close attention to how US political practices deal with a self-serving, Hitleresque criminal. We see the political practice of his supporters attempting to close ranks around him, calling the 1/6 hearings a stunt, and getting reelected. His political supporters have also been elected on a platform that includes nothing less than waging political vendetta - and nothing more.
It looks like we're stuck between a rock and a rock. But in being stuck there can be found freedom. The US will look bad either way. The politicians will be portrayed any way politically convenient. That, too, is a political practice. Is it true without question? I think not. At the same time, they don't give a tinker's damn about "true without question" as long as they can define what's "true without question." Whether the winner writes the history remains to be seen, but the winner >does< indeed get to define |what's| true without question - and it's >always< self-serving, all the way to their goddam pulpit.
I question the concern for "true without question." A criminal, who committed high felonies in an attempt to effectively bring it all down in service to feeding his political avarice and vanity, needs to be castrated, straight jacketed, gagged, and confined. Are those who we presume to impress with political practice that's "true without question" in service to some nebulous national image, while ours standard of justice, that >nobody< is above the law, is rendered a national joke? I'm more concerned with >that< image. I'm content to support the latter and look like an asshole to those who would support the former. At least I wouldn't fear seeing mine own reflection in a mirror every morning.
And above all else we are a nation of laws where no one is above the law, including former presidents.
That is the face we MUST continue to reflect to ourselves and the world.
It is truly amazing that it was only through artifice and corruption that our democracy failed us and Trump was elected, prompting the revelation of the fault lines in our democracy. The repairing of which will be his legacy.
I would have to differ on your premise Sandra. In our democracy there are 180 degrees of separation between persecution and prosecution, but that has not inhibited Trump from conflating the two as one of his many tools of sophistry.
There was more than enough evidence for Trump's conviction at his second impeachment. Indeed, the transcript of his phone call with Zelensky is all that was needed to convict him in his first impeachment. America is again playing an elaborate Kabuki theatre drama about Trump's culpability in a seditious conspiracy to commit a coup d'etat. This country just hates to recognize truth when it stares it in the face. We are so fearful of ruffling the feathers of our regressive, anti-American, racist, white nationalist Christian countrymen that we continue to appease them, even at the cost of our own society. I'll never understand why the armed invaders of the Michigan statehouse weren't all rounded up and given ten years of hard labor, because that appeasement led directly to January 6th.
Plus, we now know that some of the senators who voted to acquit were at a minimum material witnesses and therefore should have recused themselves. Ron Johnson may have been a conspirator.
Ron Johnson is something I occasionally need to wipe off the soles of my shoes. The fact that he defeated Russ Feingold TWICE tells you everything you need to know about the intelligence, maturity, and temperament of the American electorate.
Daniel, I can't imagine Republicans recusing themselves of anything they may have a shady interest in. We have not seen Clarence Thomas recuse himself when he knows full well that his wife is an insurrectionist. Johnson was re-elected. I guess the people of Wisconsin are OK with an insurrectionist representing them in the Senate. And, the 4 who have been recommended to the Ethics Committee were all re-elected. It is simply wrong that insurrectionists can still serve while they plot the next attack. And, voters gave the House to the Republicans who planned, carried out, and tried to justify the January 6th attack on our democracy. I want to think it is because of their ignorance, but I am moving into thinking it is that they imagine a fascist state would get them more than they already have. As most of those voters are white, they are sure they will be valued for their whiteness. They don't realize that a whole lot of white people died in fascist hands during WWII and other fascist takeovers in history. What makes them think they are somehow special, unless, of course they can be used by those who want to be in power. Then I start to wonder, what happens to a person who loses their values and even their soul.
The whole thing is frustrating due to the fact that our justice system takes forever. Now the DOJ will spend who knows how long going through all the transcripts from the committee to ensure that there's not something in them that can possibly diminish their case. The mass media will find more stories to report on in the report and transcripts as well. 45 is still in the mass media cycle every day. and more than likely will continue to be at least up through 2024. When will it all stop? All this for a blatant, very-easy-to-see string of obvious fraud, lies, and illegal activities. Yet, here we are rambling on and on about it all as nobody is ultimately held accountable. What a disaster!
And we still have to endure the likes of Guiliani, Sydney Powell, Roger Stone, Steve Bannon, the Trumps, John Eastman, Jordan/Gohmert/Biggs/Goshar/Cruz/Hawley/Green/Boebert/et al. et al. free as birds, spewing their bilge, whipping up the crowd, dialing for dollars.
And William Barr is some kind of "truth-sayer" now? Really?! Is HE on the criminal referral list? If not, why not?
Frankom : Wouldn't it be great to see a legal French Revolution style reckoning of this mob and it's leaders? Without the guillotine. Just keep 'em out of office/power and maybe get them to therapy....
Annie, I see and agree with your concerns. I think the legal folks are scared of Trump and his scummy lawyers too. It is time someone in authority gets some courage and looks for a wide variety of ways to shut down the Trump organization. One indictment from the DOJ simply isn't going to do it, that is if it ever comes. Trump is an ignorant fool, but he is smart in surrounding himself with people who do know how to get around the law and to ignore whatever would stop their appalling behavior. A DC court should be able to try Trump and his accessories for stealing the documents from the White House. That should be an ordinary crime of theft. That would be a good way to start. They could charge him for each box of documents stolen or several times for the lying that all of the documents had been handed back. Let's try that route first since Garland and his crew are so worried about every dotted t and crossed i.
I was not very old when the Rosenbergs went to the gallows for treason. I wasn’t very old when President Kennedy was blown apart by an assassin bullet now tied to the Dulles CIA , another mob of complicit
Power mongers, I was actually working in Central and South America when Reagan was selling arms to Iran. I sat in the Watergate inquiry because of a friend who was Senator Irving’s lead council..... on and on and on....
I am fairly bright and think this latest test of our commitment to the LAW could actually make up for a huge discrepancy in holding those guilty of crime accountable .
We can only pat ourselves on the back for being a Great Country” by being so.
Jean. I remember most of the events you mentioned. We the people have not always held the rich and powerful accountable for anything they have done. Even when someone rich and powerful has been sentenced and actually imprisoned, it is to a prison that is more like a vacation spot than like the prisons poor Black and Latino men are sent to and often end up dying in. No prison should be an inhumane place but the rich and powerful, mostly white, of course, don't have to worry about anything inhumane because We the People can't seem to see those guys as real criminals. They dress well, usually are physically attractive (OK, maybe not Trump), and believe and spread the myth of themselves getting their wealth on their own, OK, often taking money from the poor (cheating the poor out of money), but they don't need it as much as the rich guys do. Often our laws protect the rich and powerful as so many are trying to use the law now to protect Donald Trump, an ordinary criminal who happens to have a lot of money he did not come by honestly. Trump's cadre is filled with other rich and sometimes powerful men and a few women who should face justice, but probably won't. We are, and will be judged by how our justice system works and whether there is any kind of equity. We'll see in this case. We haven't done so well in the past.
It is frustrating beyond measure, from everything we all grew up knowing about right and wrong. However, keep the faith all. We (region of Southeast PA) worked the grassroots level extremely hard in 2022 and flipped our little corner to blue, and it was our efforts all added together to do it. We are battling the “laboratories of autocracy” in PA! (Read David Pepper)
Eric, hi neighbor. Yes, folks here in southeast PA did work hard to move our region to blue. I think people got so sick of seeing other places, particularly blue ones getting more things done and having good legislators, something we lacked for decades. We now have that and this seems to be a much more hopeful place. Now, I would like to see other places do what has been done here.
As I have told others, as far as Trump is concerned I neither cared for nor watched his show before, and I didn't watch his latest stab (literally) as Top Dog in the kennel. Pull the plug on the coverage already, because that's all he craves is the attention he never got as a kid, except steering him to be as predatory as his sires. He is a hollow man who needs external validation to make hiim feel whole.
If you watch mainstream news media, it's unavoidable, so the next best thing is not watch any mainstream media and just read the publications you find to be the most trustworthy and less honed in on 45.
There’s no one on this earth who would like to see IQ45 in an orange jumpsuit more than I would. Nonetheless, I’ll be stunned if indictments ever materialize from the DOJ.
Yeah, I've read about Smith, that he's a tenacious dude, etc,, etc. I remain skeptical that the existing power structure will let him land a fish of this size. That said, I'd be thrilled to be proven wrong. If this happens and I'm in a bar at the time, I'll buy a round for the house.
Bill, I am looking to be reassured. The DOJ is functioning in uncharted waters and does not have much to guide them. I want to think Garland, Smith, et al will carry through, but I also know the American people have a really short attention span and will soon dismiss January 6th as just any riot and those who planned it as "well, just because I say to do something doesn't mean you should." I say, go for the theft charges first. They would be ordinary charges that judges and courts know how to deal with. They could follow the path used when smaller actors stole or inadvertently took secret documents and are now doing time. The DC courts should do this and give DOJ some more time for whatever it is they are doing or not doing.
as is often the case, I wake up to pee, open my computer, and you suck me in. I suppose I should thank you for that. You are more interesting then my incontinence.
I watched the hearing and almost fell asleep, a sign of my old age and the fact that there was little new in most of the hearing. I was dozing when the referral was made. It has been over 40 years since I was in law school and I either forgot or never knew what a congressional referral meant. I marked on my long list of thing to learn, to find out.
If as you say, the referral means nothing legally, then my memory is not as bad as it could be.
The evidence against trump seems overwhelming. I look forward to reading the report then it is released.
I have to admit that I would enjoy seeing Trump behind bars but suspect that will not happen. One part of the law that I remember is that our "Criminal Justice" system is designed to let 40 guilty people free rather then convict one innocent person. That system does not work for most people, but I suspect it does for somebody with huge resources. I hope I am proven wrong but I am sure that it would be years before a conviction if ever.
Well on that note, I will go back to bed.
thanks again, for all that you do. I hope the new year brings you light and joy
Professor. Thank you for your Up to Date news and analysis of the January 6 Insurrection and the hearings. Today’s wrap was what those of us who watched every hearing knew, but now they have provided overwhelming evidence and facts that TFG and those who aided him in his criminal behavior should be held accountable. We hope for Justice. For consequences. I’m looking inside TFG’s head right now and he’s thinking he squeezed out of Impeachments so why should this be different. We’re hoping Mr. TFG that Justice Matters and you’re about to find out you’ve hit the wall. Put away that Superman suit because it won’t be allowed where you go next. DOJ, do your job.
As satisfying as it would be to see TFG doing his perp walk, it won't happen. He'll be on a private jet to somewhere that doesn't extradite before the ink on the arrest warrant is dry.
Cheryl, yes, let’s both be “right.” If he escapes, that would also be ok. Just be gone!!! But, he’s left behind a movement that is part of our world landscape of wealth, power. Autocracy. He’s dominated the airwaves, the news, and breathed life into a base of citizens waiting to be heard and recognized. So we still have to protect our Democracy and our country. Lessons learned these past years about dictators, and the social and political damage they cause. The list is too long. Onward.
Cheryl, yes, and Trump will carry with him as many of those stolen documents as he can to use to keep him in money and recognition. I wonder if he runs, some Secret Service will run with him.
The January 6th Committee are heroic patriots. They did their job, dancing backwards in heels. Now it’s the DOJ’s turn to put this grifter in jail. As Attorney General Merrick Garland stated, no one is above the law. No one.
He fomented and participated in an insurrection to steal the outcome of the election and destroy American democracy. He should spend the rest of his life in prison, but will likely escape to Russia when he realizes he is going to Leavenworth.
Excellent prediction. Maybe the Arabs will establish a millionaire oasis there for convicted felons with the country protected by the US militaries at our expense.
Eager to see what DOJ has and will do regardless of J6 committee, which I believe did an outstanding job bringing evidence to the public. Even though they have no prosecutorial powers they have laid out a clear case of what X45 was involved with, did or failed to do. He should NEVER be allowed in public office, or be able to influence politics again. He's circling the drain, but his sycophants and hangers on will believe what they want regardless of what this hard working and decent committee showed us. I think DOJ with its appointed justice has a mass of evidence that will bring charges not just for X45 but all those involved in the criminal activities especially the worthless immoral and lying groupies at the top.
I also hope House members involved are censured before the new term. Jordan, Biggs, MTG, Perry are worthless stormtroopers for their fuhrer. I'm ashamed that they are even in Congress.
High praise for the REAL Congress members who worked through all the nonsense to bring the facts to the American people. This was NOT A WITCH HUNT, it was Democracy in a turning point in American history.
Let’s just hope prosecutors have the guts to stand up and put him behind bars where he belongs! It’s clear he is an habitual criminal! He exemplifies everything we teach our children NOT to become. Actually, that fact should be enough to put him on the FBI’s most wanted list! If the DOJ can’t get this done then we are in more trouble than I imagined.
IMHO it's important to remember that on 1/7 both McConnell and McCarthy gave speeches condemning Trump for the insurrection. If it gets to trial, those speeches are the first pieces of evidence I'd use.
It will come out Wednesday what will be sent to DOJ. I hope it's not a roadmap to Trump how to defend. I don't know that the Committee has all the evidence.
In my experience, the FBI and or the Federal Police and or the DC police would have taken witness statements on 1/6 that DOJ already has. Every member of Congress, every staff member, White House employee, and all the cops involved were eyewitnesses.
Unmentioned are the potential charges for lesser included crimes like perjury -- which is easy to prove, obstruction of justice, etc.
A friend sent the following witness list:
REPUBLICANS:
● John McEntee (served as Director of the White House Presidential Personnel Office in the Trump Administration)
● Judd Deere (served as deputy assistant to the President and White House deputy press secretary in the administration of Donald Trump)
● Jared Kushner (served as a senior advisor to President Donald Trump)
● Pat Cipollone (served as White House Counsel for President Donald Trump)
● Eric Herschmann (served as a senior advisor to former President Donald Trump)
● Kayleigh McEnany (served the administration of Donald Trump as the 33rd White House press secretary from April 2020 to January 2021)
● Derek Lyons (served as White House Staff Secretary and Counselor to the President in the administration of former U.S. President Donald Trump)
● Cassidy Hutchinson (assistant to former Chief of Staff Mark Meadows during the Trump administration)
● Matt Pottinger (served as the United States deputy national security advisor)
● Ben Williamson (senior advisor to chief of staff Mark Meadows)
● Sarah Matthews (served as the deputy press secretary for the Trump administration)
● William Barr (served as Attorney General for the Trump administration)
● Mike Pompeo (served as the director of the Central Intelligence Agency and as the 70th United States Secretary of State for the Trump administration)
● Ivanka Trump (served as a senior advisor and director of the Office of Economic Initiatives and Entrepreneurship for the Trump administration)
● Donald Trump Jr. (eldest child of Donald Trump)
● Molly Michael (served as Special Assistant to the President and Oval Office Operations Coordinator)
● Tim Murtaugh (served as director of communications for President Donald J. Trump’s re-election campaign)
● Richard Donoghue (served as the acting United States deputy attorney general)
● Jeffrey Rosen (served as the acting United States attorney general from December 2020 to January 2021)
● Steven Engel (served as the United States Assistant Attorney General for the Office of Legal Counsel in the Trump administration)
● Marc Short (served as chief of staff to Vice President Mike Pence)
● Greg Jacob (served as White House lawyer to former Vice President Mike Pence)
● Keith Kellogg (served as National Security Advisor to the Vice President of the United States)
● Chris Hodgson (served as director of legislative affairs for Vice President Mike Pence)
● Douglas Macgregor (former advisor to the Secretary of Defense in the Trump administration)
● Jason Miller (served as spokesman for the Donald Trump 2016 Presidential Campaign and was a Senior Adviser to the Trump 2020 Re-election Campaign)
● Alex Cannon (an attorney for Donald Trump)
● Bill Stepien (served as the Campaign manager for Donald Trump's 2020 Presidential Campaign and was the White House Director of Political Affairs in the Trump administration from 2017 to 2018)
● Rudolph Giuliani (an attorney for Donald Trump)
● John Eastman (an attorney central to the Electoral College election theories to overturn the results of the election)
● Michael Flynn (served as former National Security Advisor for the Trump Administration)
● Eugene Scalia (served as the United States secretary of labor during the final 16 months of the Donald Trump administration)
● Matthew Morgan (Deputy Assistant to the Vice President and Deputy Counsel)
● Sidney Powell (served on President Trump’s legal team to overturn the results of the 2020 election)
● Jeffrey Clark (former United States Assistant Attorney General for the Civil Division)
● Cleta Mitchell (served on President Trump’s legal team to overturn the results of the 2020 election)
● Ronna Romney McDaniel (serving as the chair of the Republican National Committee)
● Justin Clark (served as Director of Public Liaison and Director of Intergovernmental Affairs at the White House under the Trump administration)
● Robert Sinners (a former campaign staffer for Donald Trump)
● Andrew Hitt (Former Wisconsin Republican Party Chair)
● Laura Cox (Former Michigan Republican Party Chair)
● Mike Shirkey (Majority Leader, Michigan State Senate - Republican)
● Bryan Cutler (Speaker, Pennsylvania House of Representatives - Republican)
● Rusty Bowers (Arizona House Speaker - Republican)
● Brad Raffensperger (Georgia Secretary of State - Republican)
● Gabriel Sterling (Georgia Secretary of State Chief Operating Officer - Republican)
● BJay Pak (Former United States Attorney for the Northern District of Georgia)
● Al Schmidt (Former City Commissioner of Philadelphia)
● Chris Stirewalt (Former Fox News Political Editor)
● Benjamin Ginsberg (Election Attorney)
● J. Michael Luttig (Retired judge for the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Fourth Circuit and informal advisor to Vice President Mike Pence)
● Katrina Pierson (served as a liaison for the White House and organizers at Donald Trump’s “Save America” rally on January 6)
● Nicholas Luna (Former President Donald Trump’s personal assistant in the White House)
● Stephen Miller (Senior Advisor to the President)
● Vincent Haley (Deputy Assistant to the President and Advisor for Policy, Strategy and Speechwriting)
● Julie Radford (Ivanka Trump’s Former Chief of Staff)
● Mick Mulvaney (Former Chief of Staff and Special Envoy for Northern Ireland for the Trump administration)
● Elaine Chao (Former Transportation Secretary)
● Roger Stone (Trump associate)
DEMOCRAT:
● Jocelyn Benson (Michigan Secretary of State - Democrat)
OTHERS:
● U.S. Capitol Police Officer Harry Dunn
● DC Metropolitan Police Officer Michael Fanone
● U.S. Capitol Police Sgt. Aquilino Gonell
● DC Metropolitan Police Officer Daniel Hodges
● General Mark Milley (chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff)
● U.S. Capitol Police Officer Caroline Edwards
● Nick Quested (award-winning British filmmaker)
● Robert Schornack (Sentenced to 36 months probation)
● Eric Barber (charged with theft and unlawful demonstration in the Capitol)
● John Wright (awaiting trial for felony civil disorder and other charges)
● George Meza (Proud Boy)
● Daniel Herendeen (sentenced to 36 months probation)
● Matthew Walter (Proud Boy)
● Wandrea ArShaye “Shaye” Moss (former Georgia election worker)
● Ruby Freeman (former Fulton County Election Worker)
● Anika Collier Navaroli (Former Twitter Employee)
● White House Security Official
● Jim Watkins (Founder and Owner, 8kun)
● Jody Williams (Former Owner of TheDonald dot win)
● Dr. Donell Harvin (Former Chief of Homeland Security, DC)
● Kellye SoRelle (Oath Keepers General Counsel)
● Shealah Craighead (Former White House Photographer)
● Jason Van Tatenhove (Former Oath Keepers Spokesperson)
● Stephen Ayres (January 6th Defendant)
● Sgt. Mark Robinson (Ret.) (D.C. Metropolitan Police Department)
● Janet Buhler (Pleaded guilty to charges related to January 6th
Add all the fake state electors, All members of Congress. All Congressional staffers. How about "Mother" Pence? "Daughter" Pence? Clarence Thomas (His wife used his office account)?
.
I have been critical of Garland. Plenty of low hanging fruit. IMHO if he wanted to build a case, he'd have started with some easy prosecutions for stuff like obstruction and perjury.
Many of the Trump lawyers fabricated evidence in the state appeals, have been sanctioned, and some, like Giuliani, lost their law licenses.
I was disappointed by Mueller. Some of his charges - obstruction - remain viable against Trump. Apparently he has problems besides Bill Barr.
Thank goodness for the Georgia grand jury - but so far no charges.
I'm also disappointed with the DC Attorney General. 5 dead. Why were no felony murder charges filed.
The truth is, we don't know what kind of duress Mueller was under during the process of due diligence. Trump is a mobster with plenty of henchmen to do his dirty work. In this case, no one can override the list of offenses laid out by the Committee. And what about the Justice Jack Smith appointed to preside over the theft of classified documents? If anyone could nail Trump, this guy can! Trump is F**ked!!! Yay!!!
It's difficult to file felony murder charges when at least two deaths were suicides, one was from a stroke (Officer Sicnik) with tenuous connection to his injuries at the riot and Ms. Babbitt's death was from a gunshot from a protector of the Congress. One death in the crowd was from a heart attack.
Some of us -- mainly me -- have done this stuff for a living. Anything that leads to death is culpable.
OMG! Daniel, What a list! I recognized most of the names and am aware of the crimes many have been accused of, but to see them all in one place! If the DOJ doesn't already have this list, they have it now. It is sad though that participants in January 6th have been given such light almost non-sentences. Most of us who follow this do understand the racist nature of the way the January 6th attack went down. In a protest in Wisconsin, a white man with a gun killed 2 and injured 1 and was acquitted. The protest there was about injustice against Black Americans by police, so it was OK that a white boy felt scared and killed. In the Capitol, the attackers were nearly 100% white trying to overturn an election and take over our government on behalf of a white guy who claimed a victory that was not his. The law enforcement was restrained even in the face of weapon-bearing attackers. As they sit for trial, juries are sympathetic again for the white boys and men (and some women) who "were just following their leader's demands." I know everyone knows that if the Capitol attackers had been Black, the death count would have been far higher than 5. We need the DOJ to prosecute, but also for juries to be broad enough that the sympathy vote can be called out for what it is, nonsense.
EXHAUSTING, But Revealing the cast of characters involed or harmed by this epic time is a real imperrative. As Always Thanks for your information.
WOW!!! Thank you for sharing this!
I would double down on the issue that overwhelms all of this. We the people , this is our government, and we must stand strong and not accept any outcome that isn’t “behind bars “ for Trump and all his enablers. If we do not DEMAND that , we will all lose our faith in how our government was set up to protect us by LAW. Losing faith in our own government and all the agencies that are there in place to protect and to
Improve the lot of every American is a death knell to Democracy.
We must stand up , hold hands and march across America chanting “ no one is above the law”! Now prove it!!
We have tolerated this before. Letting money and power make up the stories that protect criminals.
Let’s make this the test we stand up for our very own government by demanding those working for us do the immediate and absolutely the right thing . America is “we the people”.
Take it back or forever get shoved aside on every important issue.
Merry Christmas, but even more: Will it be a Happy And Different New Year?
That is up to us.... feel the power fellow Americans!
CREW is currently suing to have Paul Gosar and Derrick Van Orden disqualified from the new House.
https://www.citizensforethics.org/reports-investigations/crew-reports/constitutional-disqualification-the-case-for-investigating-federal-and-state-legislators-who-participated-in-the-january-6th-insurrection/
The House should suspend the 4 members -- especially Scott Perry and Gym Jordan -- implicated by the Committee. I'd say that number should include those implicated in the Meadows' emails.
After having finished listening to Maddow's "Ultra" podcast it seems all the more imperative that we don't sweep anti-democracy traitors within our government under the rug ever again. (Particularly when gerrymandering has insulated so many of them from being thrown out on their ear at the ballot box too)
We've already made that mistake too many times, and all it really served to do was embolden people like this.
Boy, the dead eyes of these people!
Jean, yes, it is We the People who are responsible to see that the criminals of the Trump administration and the January 6th insurrection are fully held accountable. It is hard for us to do anything together these days, but I hope we can figure out how to push the DOJ into prosecuting and juries into paying attention to the facts and the law, not to the belief that a lot of the attackers, the criminals are "good-looking white boys who need another chance," or some other dismissal of the criminals and crimes.
Jean (Muriel), thank you for this stirring call to action. Unfortunately, there's not much we ordinary folks can do to insure criminal accountability for the Trump gang. We aren't likely to be holding hands and marching across the country.
But we are not powerless. We can do something about what happens next, specifically who becomes Speaker of the House in the new Congress. That vote is scheduled for January 3 -- two weeks from today.
I can't emphasize enough how urgent this moment is, and that we do have power as ordinary citizens to make a difference. We need our Democratic representatives in the House to use their 213 votes in support of a moderate Republican for Speaker. And we (you and I) can help make that happen.
On his substack broadcast "Coffee Klatch" last Saturday, Robert Reich said this:
"I think the Democrats ought to strike a deal and say . . . we will give you votes, in return for which we don't want you to kowtow to the Freedom Caucus..."
Listen here (somewhere around minute 7:30)
https://robertreich.substack.com/p/elon-musks-brain-kevin-mccarthys#details
Mr. Reich is a seasoned veteran of political wars and he knows whereof he speaks. He recognizes the difficulty of doing this, but he also says "I think it could happen."
D's won't vote for R's unless they know they won't be punished for it back home. That's where we (specifically you and I) come in. Spreading this idea and growing public momentum for it is our job.
Please voice your support directly to Mr Reich (robertreich@substack.com), and contact everyone you can think of, especially news media personalities, to build momentum for his proposal before January 3. There should be conversations on MSNBC and CNN about why this is a good idea, and not let cynics convince us that it's a fantasy.
Together, we (again, specifically you and I) can make a real difference. There's no time to waste.
Dear Mr. Weiss,
Wow and thank you. We will definitely listen to this advice.
And we will voice our opinion. Also, did you read Heather Cox Richardson today!
We read her every morning and feel energized by her careful and analysis of the issues.
Well, here’s to much luck in our quest!
Sincerely,
Jean(Muriel)
Thanks for pitching in Jean (Muriel).
I did read Heather's letter today and was thrilled to see her mention Rep. Bacon's comment. Of course, I wrote right back to her, told her about our effort and asked her to join in. Mr. Bacon, by the way, speaks for a moderate / centrist caucus of several dozen Republicans who, he said, "are tired of being pushed around" by the Freedom Caucus.
There's a long way to go, but I think we're starting to get some traction. Thanks again for your help.
BTW, I appreciate the respect implied by your addressing me as Mr. Weiss (long live courtesy!). But pretty much everyone knows me as Jerry.
--Jerry
Sleep well Jerry, especially knowing you educate so many of us . And that energizes like nothing else.
Hey Jean,
Looks like it's time to start lobbying the Dems to support a consensus candidate for Speaker. (Is there another way I can communicate with you than thru the cooments section?)
My mistake, sorry. It's jerandand@earthlink.net (that's Jer and And, my wife is Andrea)
Jean, your sweet bedtime wish made my eyes well up. Amazing how powerful the most simple gesture can be! Thank you.
There's now only one week before the Speakership election, so tomorrow I'll be sending out my fourth apppeal to our advocacy group. It'll be a call to contact several Congresspeople by phone, urging them to support a moderate Republican for Speaker. If you'd like me to send you one, please let me know directly here: jaerandand@earthlink.net
Stephen, you are so right about a model for our kids. I suspect Trump and Kump remembered that nothing had happened to Nixon from his crimes. They were pretty sure they could get away with it too, and even have Trump run for president again. That is just crazy and needs to be stopped. Our Constitution says Trump should not be able to run for or serve in any elected office federal or state after involvement in an insurrection. Yo DOJ, it's time! Our kids need to see a good example of our government functioning equally for everyone. They haven't seen much of that in our history.
If it doesn't happen now, there will be no end in sight for this kind of political malfeasance. We need to set some precedents for this. We will not tolerate this.
Lee, you are right that we need to set precedents for what happens when a president and his minions commit crimes against our nation, our Constitution, and our institutions. Previously, those folks were pretty much let go or even pardoned ala Nixon and the guys who perpetrated Iran-Contra. Today's batch of crooks need to be indicted, prosecuted, and sentenced. I say, go with the crimes we know how to address like lying to Congress, stealing documents and aiding and betting. Then go for the crimes related to the insurrection, first, that Trump and Kump participated in planning the insurrection and did nothing to intervene which would keep Trump and his assistants from running for any office in the future and I hope getting some of them kicked out of Congress. Then, go for the big stuff that Trump incited a riot, got people killed and tried to stay in office when he lost and knew he lost. That should keep courts all over the country busy since there were so many participants around the country.
I agree, Ruth. It's not just that I want the guilty to be held accountable, what I seek is an end to this kind of behavior by anyone from either party. We need to clean up our government and this is the perfect time to set some meaningful precedents. It'll take some work but how we start will make all the difference.
Lee, I am not into vengeance politics as so many Republicans/conservatives are now, but I agree we need some meaningful precedents set with significant penalties in place when anyone goes on the wrong side of them. We also should do a far better job of vetting candidates for office. Right now, there is a guy, Santos in New York who lied about nearly everything related to his education and work life. Such information should have been learned before he was able to be on the ballot. I suspect the people who voted for him didn't know they were voting for a pathological liar, but they have him now, and he is a right-winger, of course. They may not care and are OK with anything else as long as they can guarantee he will move against our Constitution when called on to do it.
If they REFUSE, the NEXT insurrection WILL be 130,000% bloodier and more deadly. The violence and death will be on THEIR heads for being sniveling cowards.
"Let Justice be done though The Heavens fall"
Hopefully, on Merrick's wall as in No One's Above The Law .in spite of There will be Problems
according the The Donald. He Luvs to Watch, you know . .by My Mayhem enthralled.
# The Killer Not A Loser
It's not just that there was no evidence of fraud. That is stating the negative, defensive position. It is that there was overwhelming evidence of a free and fair election, from recount after recount, court case after court case, analysis after professional analysis. There was (and is) overwhelming proof that Donald Trump lost!
Gerald, yes, there was overwhelming evidence that Trump lost and that he knew it and wanted the fact ignored.
The compelling, indisputable evidence compiled by the Jan 6th House Committee aside, it would seem that holding Trump and his command structure criminally accountable would be critical to cementing the public’s trust both in our institutions and in the idea that no one is above the law. Anything less, in my view, could result in utter chaos.
I believe Jack Smith will agree with you...
Bill, I’m banking on Smith being both thorough and expeditious. Because we lost a year with Garland, a trial is not likely to be scheduled until 2024, an election year, unless Trump and the other ringleaders are indicted very early next year. I’m quite sure a trial scheduled in an election year would be postponed until after the election.
I hear you on the insurrection case ending up in 2024. But the stolen documents case could be prosecuted tomorrow. The idiot admitted his guilt more than once. The grifter is a gifter!
Bill, I agree and expect an indictment on the stolen documents by the end of December. Still, as nuts as it sounds, I’m quite sure Trump could still run, even if convicted.
Barbara Jo. Yes, waiting to indict would be bad. However, that not having a trial in an election year is just stupid (stupid is a choice). A crime is a crime and needs to be prosecuted. Before the actual trial, perhaps determining Trump's role in the January 6th insurrection would determine that Trump is ineligible to run for any federal or state office again, so whether or not the triale is in the election year would be irrelevant. Besides, Republicans make up stuff all the time. McConnell made up the rule that no Supreme Court justice should be considered during an election year, then changed it to push through the nomination of the less than mediocre Barrett a few weeks before the 2020 election. So, we need to drop that nonsense about election year anything and push forward. It really is time!
At this point, I’d say it’s past time.
Ruth, While I empathize with your reasoning, as you know, unless or until convicted, an indicted individual is considered innocent before the law. Hence, only a conviction could establish, beyond reasonable doubt, “Trump’s role in the January 6th insurrection.” Thus, as stated, Trump and the other masterminds, as I understand, would be eligible to seek public office unless convicted for insurrection. Regrettably, Senate Republicans blew their chance to ensure Trump would be ineligible to seek public office when they failed, by a handful of votes, to convict him at his impeachment trial.
As for the more straightforward stolen documents case, while I expect indictment is imminent, as stated, I’m quite sure, even if convicted, Trump still would be eligible to run for office. I base this judgment on the fact that no provision exists in the Constitution that states otherwise.
Barbara Jo, yes, isn't that sad we have no specific mechanism for applying section 3 of the 14th amendment. It was pretty clearly stated, but unless a court declares Trump an insurrection mastermind, he can run. I do think that states can employ the 14th amendment and declare Trump ineligible to be on any ballot in their state. I suspect none will, though. This just proves if a toddler-man gets enough other toddlers to work for him, he can get around all the adults in the room.
Ruth, I am not aware that states can invoke the 14th to declare a presidential candidate ineligible to appear on a state ballot.
From your mouth to God’s ear!
Barbara Jo. You are right about this too. We need to find ways to pressure the DOJ into doing the right thing and indicting the whole crew (individually or in small groups), then fully prosecuting. No circus trials, just courts of law listening to and judging on the facts based on the law and the actions of those involved. It's time.
Ruth, While my heart agrees with you, my head tells me, because we lost a year with Garland, we’re not likely to see indictments of the command structure on insurrection, until at least March. There’s simply too much complex material, replete with incomplete knowledge, to imagine prosecutors could proceed quickly with indictments that would lead to convictions.
Barbara Jo, the sad part of this is that if Trump and Kump had been made up of Black Americans, the indictments would have already been handed down and the trials done or underway. The racism in our nation is so deep, it impacts everything that happens. The folks involved in the protests over George Floyd's murder have nearly all been prosecuted long ago and a kid who killed two people and injured another was acquitted long ago. A few of the low-level insurrectionists have been prosecuted, but the sentences have been pathetic. Trump already pardoned his cronies who helped in his criminal behavior in the White House and before, so nothing will come of that. His business was convicted, but he will suffer in no way from that either. He will let everyone else take the fall. I get it that Garland is supposedly trying to gather every tiny piece of information before indicting Trump, but when one has the full Department of Justice behind the investigation, it should have been completed by now. I am guessing Garland will fall back on the Nixon era attempt to squash future attempts to stop bad behavior on the part of presidents as his guide to stop any investigation, trial, etc. during an election year. That is nonsense, but lately, nonsense has been an important part of what is going on and that is just the way Trump and Kump like it.
Ruth, Call me naive, but I trust Special Counsel Jack Smith to recommend indictment if he believes he can deliver. Two points worth mentioning are 1) much of the evidence provided by the Select Committee is inadmissible in court and 2) Smith will need testimony from individuals who defied congressional subpoenas. He also likely will have to grant immunity to some of Trump’s command structure who took the 5th.
Yep, Barbara Jo, that is why I am pretty sure very little will happen. If testimony from the House Committee is inadmissible, there isn't much the DOJ is going to be able to do because what was presented was pretty damning. Those people who spoke and described, did it under oath. That should count for something, and Smith et al should be able to find a way to use it or have the people make the same statements again. I keep hoping the DOJ crew will be able to do something, but time is passing and . . . .
I hope you had an excellent holiday celebration with family and friends.
Ruth, I, too, hope that you and those you hold dear are taking time to enjoy one another throughout the holidays.
As for Special Counsel, while I believe the Select Committee’s report provides an extraordinarily helpful blueprint, because critical parts of it rely on indirect evidence, said testimony would be dismissed as hearsay in court. Additionally, because the evidence, prior to indictment, has been made public, the Defense has ample time to construct a possibly plausible counter narrative.
The foregoing notwithstanding, I do believe Trump and some of the other masterminds and ringleaders will be held criminally accountable on several measures.
Barbara Jo, you have pin-pointed the most crucial piece of all this: "cementing the public’s trust both in our institutions and in the idea that no one is above the law."
It's also what Jean (Muriel) was talking about in her stirring call to action above:
"Losing faith in our own government and all the agencies that are there . . . is a death knell to Democracy. . . . America is “we the people” . . . Take it back or forever get shoved aside on every important issue . . . That is up to us ... feel the power fellow Americans!"
There's not much we ordinary folks can do to insure criminal accountability for the Trump gang. We aren't going to be holding hands and marching across the country.
But we are not powerless. We can do something about what happens next, specifically who becomes Speaker of the House in the new Congress. That vote is scheduled for January 3 -- two weeks from today.
Jerry, Having reviewed your earlier exchanges with Jean and also those with Paul, as part of this thread, admittedly, I can’t imagine a better outcome than House Democrats arriving at an agreement with 5 so-called moderate Republicans that would preserve some semblance of regular order in the House.
Since I had not listened to Reich’s Saturday “Coffee Klatch,” I’ll start there. That said, knowing that without some plan, the republic is in grave danger, I intend to partner with individuals and groups working for more democracy (e.g., federal voter protections, D.C. / Puerto Rican statehood, big money out of politics, and the like).
Thanks, Barbara Jo. Actually, what's needed is for 100 or so Democrats to join with 120 or so Republicans to elect a compromise candidate who owes nothing to the MAGA faction. Getting just 5 R's to break ranks is almost impossible as they'd be seen as traitors complicit in a Democratic power grab.
Because the loudest voices get the most attention, people have the impression that there are more hard-core MAGA's than there really are. What we are advocating is for Democrats to join forces with Republican moderates like Rep. Don Bacon (R-NE) who has already signaled his willingness to "work with like-minded people across the aisle to find someone agreeable for Speaker."
I'd argue that the republic is already in grave danger. There is an imminent threat the third-highest ranking office in the country (next after the vice-president), may soon be occupied by someone who owes his position to organized white Christian nationalists.
This is happening right now. The vote is less than 2 weeks away, and the media is asleep. We have a plan, and we need everyone's help to implement it. Our immediate goal is to raise public awareness that a cross-party coalition is possible. That means contact everyone you can think of, especially news media personalities, so it becomes part of the public narrative.
We need conversations on MSNBC and CNN that focus on how to make this happen, and we can't let cynics convince us that it's a fantasy
Working for more democracy is an excellent overall ideal. But we have to act today because the republic is in grave danger today. Thanks so much for pitching in.
Jerry, Because I have doubts regarding the feasibility of creating the nearly split bipartisan coalition you claim is needed, I am pursuing an alternate plan. I’ve started compiling a list, beginning with the 2 House Republicans who voted for Trump’s Second Impeachment and held their seats: Rep. Dan Newhouse (R-Wash) and Rep. David Valado (R-Calif). I will add Rep. Don Bacon (R-NE) plus the 5 House Republicans, who, yesterday, voted in favor of requiring the IRS to conduct annual audits of the president’s tax returns.
The rest of my plan entails contacting both outgoing and incoming House Democratic leadership to urge, if not already underway, a behind-the scenes effort to amass 218 votes for an alternative to Kevin McCarthy, who will continue to cut whatever despicable deals he believes will get him the gavel.
Considering what we will continue to learn from the House Select Committee, I haven’t given up on the idea that a sufficient number of House Republicans will put country before party and reject Kevin McCarthy’s bid for Speaker in favor of a Republican who will retain some semblance of regular order.
I love your plan, Barbara. It's very focused and well thought out. Whatever the proportion of D's and R's may finally turn out to be, we share the same goal -- seeing that McCarthy is rejected in favor of a Republican committed to governing.
As the media continues to treat the Speakership struggle like a sporting event, it seems unlikely we'll see any serious conversations about this on TV over the next few days. That being the case, I'm shifting my efforts and will follow your lead to focus on specific Republican members. We can't beat someone with no one, and your list is a good place to start.
I've been worried all along that the Freedom Caucus members threatening to withhold their votes might abruptly change course once they've extracted as many concessions as they can from McCarthy. To counter that possibility, peeling off a half-dozen potential moderate votes is good strategy.
But I still think that it may be easier to get 100 votes than 5. Moderates by their very nature are, well, moderate and will be reluctant to act boldly. That 's why the best candidate would be one who comes with substantial support from colleagues.
When compiling your list, I'd suggest cross-refencing with membership in the Republican Governance Group: https://republicangovernance.com/ That's the group of about 40 or so moderates who Don Bacon was speaking for when he said "We're tired of being pushed around" by the Freedom Caucus.
Please keep me informed of your efforts (jerandand@earthlink.net), and let me know if there's any way I can help you. Meanwhile I'll keep urging Reps Bacon, Jeffries and Pelosi (who represents my SF district) to work together to keep the extremists at bay.
Jerry, I greatly appreciate your kind words plus your extraordinarily helpful reply. Moreover, with the Republican Governance Group membership in hand, I have far more confidence in the feasibility of trying to enlist a substantially larger block of so-called moderates.
That said, I did note Elise Stefanik hadn’t been removed, leading to some concern that the list, as initially compiled, might not reflect the current reality. Needless to say I’ll keep growing my list as I garner more information, for example, who votes to approve the $1.7 trillion omnibus bill to fund the government. The rest I’ll leave to Democratic leadership.
The MAGA crowd is extracting concession after concession from Kevin McCarthy as he desperately attempts to get enough votes to become Speaker. If he submits to them, far right extremists will effectively set the agenda for the next two years. Worse, they would wield power over the person next in line after Kamala Harris for succession to the presidency.
I can't emphasize enough how urgent this moment is, and that we do have power as ordinary citizens to make a difference. We need our Democratic representatives in the House to use their 213 votes in support of a moderate Republican for Speaker. And we (you and I) can help make that happen.
On his substack broadcast "Coffee Klatch" last Saturday, Robert Reich said this:
"I think the Democrats ought to strike a deal and say . . . we will give you votes, in return for which we don't want you to kowtow to the Freedom Caucus..."
Listen here (somewhere around minute 7:30)
https://robertreich.substack.com/p/elon-musks-brain-kevin-mccarthys#details
Mr. Reich is a seasoned veteran of political wars and he knows whereof he speaks. He recognizes the difficulty of doing this, but he also says "I think it could happen."
D's won't vote for R's unless they know they won't be punished for it back home. That's where we (specifically you and I) come in. Spreading this idea and growing public momentum for it is our job.
Please voice your support directly to Mr Reich (robertreich@substack.com), and contact everyone you can think of, especially news media personalities, to build momentum for his proposal before January 3.
Together, we (again, specifically you and I) can make a real difference. There's no time to waste.
we cannot "make a deal" with the repugnants. they will lie and steal, cheat, manipulate, and continue to destroy democracy. Dr. Reich should know better. I agree with him 99,9% of the time, but this is not a good idea.
Believe me, Paul, I totally understand your reaction. But please take a beat, and think this through.
Not all Republicans are alike. As Mr. Reich explains, there is a civil war going on in their party. Only about 40% of House Republicans are hard-core MAGA's. The rest are normal Chamber of Commerce / Rotary Club types, like Don Bacon of Omaha. You've never heard of them, but their priority is a maintaining a stable, functioning free-market society. You may not agree with them on any issue, but they're not crazies. Mr. Bacon, speaking for his centrist caucus, has indicated a willingness to work with Democrats to find a compromise candidate for Speaker. "We're tired of being pushed around (by the Freedom Caucus)", he said.
We all live in the same country, and we all have a stake in the outcome of this civil war. One side is seriously dangerous, and we need to marginalize them however we can.
Standing aside is taking a side -- the wrong one.
ok, i see your point. however, don't forget lucy and charlie brown. just need to be really careful and eyes open.
Good advice.
Here's another analogy: If your neighbor's house is on fire, you lend a hand even if you disagree with them on everything else. Side benefit, you're protecting your own home as well.
Thank you Robert for the summation You are a true American. It is so frightening that things have gone this far and nothing has been done about this horrible assault on our democracy
We can prepare as many lists of umpty-ump events and evidence that detail Trump's culpability, but in the end, it's all meaningless chest-thumping.... UNLESS some judicial body _actually_ initiates proceedings against Trump. Even if the DOJ **does** start ptroceedings, you just know that the Republican Majority in the House WILL do everything in its power to terminate or stall the proceedings. And in the end, even if found Guilty, the appeal that goes to SCOTUS will most likely reverse the finding and lets Trump go scot-free.
Which just shows that in America, SOME (certain) people ARE "above the Law." If Trump was any other ordinary citizen, he would already have been in prison for almost two years, serving a 20-to-life sentence. And that's just because The System is soooo thoroughly rigged to protect people like Trump.
Or, when you go after someone like Trump, you only get one shot. Make sure it is a good one. McConnell really did throw Trump under the bus.
That kind of folklore is BS. IMHO his DNA is his principal danger that isn't even part of this case.
Mar a Lago docs is separate and is an easier case and he was no longer president so has none of the defenses he has in the 1/26 case.
He also is losing civil cases. Bankruptcy will not save him.
someone should actually throw him under a bus...or a truck.
Or shove a piano out of a window as he walks under it.
LOL!!! LOL!!!
a fully loaded garbage truck following collection ~ ~ ~
Just laughter, about the truck. LOL!
LOL!!!
Ken, yes McConnell kind of did throw Trump under the bus, but he could have done the right thing and voted to convict him in the impeachment trial. McConnell is a coward and a self-seeker. It is unclear what he will say in a trial of Trump, with Trump sitting right there in front of him. Trump should have already been indicted for stealing documents from the White House as he was leaving, documents that clearly did not belong to him. There are already people in jail for taking less significant documents even if taking them was not intentional. For Trump and Kump, it was intentional and a few people knew about it and just went right on moving them to Trump's homes. Maybe that is the trial what should go first along with identifying Trump as the insurrection ringleader, and using the 14th amendment of our Constitution to make Trump ineligible to ever run for any office.
Pretty much ALL GOP legislators have demonstrated that, while sometimes criticizing Trump, have also declared that should Trump be on the ballot, they WOULD nevertheless vote for him. It seems that being Right is more important than doing the right thing.
There is really no other plausible outcome than a trial and conviction.
How about the plausible outcome of being unable to seat an unbiased jury? In what possible venue could you seat an unbiased jury? Just wonderin'.
DZK, good point. There are Trumpers and Trumpettes and Fox zombies everywhere. How can one weed them out and then wouldn't Trump's lawyers whine that there were no Trump supporters on the jury? It's crazy!
Tp be fair, who of us >here< could be seated on an impartial jury against ol' Tweety ‽
We have to acknowledge the conundrum, the proverbial two-ton gorilla. The USA is a country that does not persecute its former officeholders. It's a very short distance between prosecute and persecute. Yes, we have prosecuted members of Congress for various felonies and misdemeanors, but our Major Profile to the world is that our political practices must be seen as true without question. We do not go after former presidents. Anyone in the world will now see that we do, and our hard-earned lesson in decency to the rest of the world will have been removed from the miracle of democratic ascendency. This is what keeps Garland up at night. It's petty to complain about his slow-walking hesitancy. He has to get everything right, without leaving any room for some future precedent.
The conundrum, indeed. I appreciate your concern that "our Major Profile to the world is that our political practices must be seen as true without question." But that's just an image. It's an idealistic standard of perfection. I'll wager >nobody< in this old world believes US political practices are true without question - except some domestic patriotic fanatics - so trying to promulgate that standard is - to me - a bit of a canard at face value. Indeed, >history< certainly doesn't support it. I don't buy it for a hot second, and neither do you, otherwise you'd not be participating in this discussion group.
On the other hand, others in the world at large are clearly paying close attention to how US political practices deal with a self-serving, Hitleresque criminal. We see the political practice of his supporters attempting to close ranks around him, calling the 1/6 hearings a stunt, and getting reelected. His political supporters have also been elected on a platform that includes nothing less than waging political vendetta - and nothing more.
It looks like we're stuck between a rock and a rock. But in being stuck there can be found freedom. The US will look bad either way. The politicians will be portrayed any way politically convenient. That, too, is a political practice. Is it true without question? I think not. At the same time, they don't give a tinker's damn about "true without question" as long as they can define what's "true without question." Whether the winner writes the history remains to be seen, but the winner >does< indeed get to define |what's| true without question - and it's >always< self-serving, all the way to their goddam pulpit.
I question the concern for "true without question." A criminal, who committed high felonies in an attempt to effectively bring it all down in service to feeding his political avarice and vanity, needs to be castrated, straight jacketed, gagged, and confined. Are those who we presume to impress with political practice that's "true without question" in service to some nebulous national image, while ours standard of justice, that >nobody< is above the law, is rendered a national joke? I'm more concerned with >that< image. I'm content to support the latter and look like an asshole to those who would support the former. At least I wouldn't fear seeing mine own reflection in a mirror every morning.
And above all else we are a nation of laws where no one is above the law, including former presidents.
That is the face we MUST continue to reflect to ourselves and the world.
It is truly amazing that it was only through artifice and corruption that our democracy failed us and Trump was elected, prompting the revelation of the fault lines in our democracy. The repairing of which will be his legacy.
I would have to differ on your premise Sandra. In our democracy there are 180 degrees of separation between persecution and prosecution, but that has not inhibited Trump from conflating the two as one of his many tools of sophistry.
There was more than enough evidence for Trump's conviction at his second impeachment. Indeed, the transcript of his phone call with Zelensky is all that was needed to convict him in his first impeachment. America is again playing an elaborate Kabuki theatre drama about Trump's culpability in a seditious conspiracy to commit a coup d'etat. This country just hates to recognize truth when it stares it in the face. We are so fearful of ruffling the feathers of our regressive, anti-American, racist, white nationalist Christian countrymen that we continue to appease them, even at the cost of our own society. I'll never understand why the armed invaders of the Michigan statehouse weren't all rounded up and given ten years of hard labor, because that appeasement led directly to January 6th.
Plus, we now know that some of the senators who voted to acquit were at a minimum material witnesses and therefore should have recused themselves. Ron Johnson may have been a conspirator.
Ron Johnson is something I occasionally need to wipe off the soles of my shoes. The fact that he defeated Russ Feingold TWICE tells you everything you need to know about the intelligence, maturity, and temperament of the American electorate.
Daniel, I can't imagine Republicans recusing themselves of anything they may have a shady interest in. We have not seen Clarence Thomas recuse himself when he knows full well that his wife is an insurrectionist. Johnson was re-elected. I guess the people of Wisconsin are OK with an insurrectionist representing them in the Senate. And, the 4 who have been recommended to the Ethics Committee were all re-elected. It is simply wrong that insurrectionists can still serve while they plot the next attack. And, voters gave the House to the Republicans who planned, carried out, and tried to justify the January 6th attack on our democracy. I want to think it is because of their ignorance, but I am moving into thinking it is that they imagine a fascist state would get them more than they already have. As most of those voters are white, they are sure they will be valued for their whiteness. They don't realize that a whole lot of white people died in fascist hands during WWII and other fascist takeovers in history. What makes them think they are somehow special, unless, of course they can be used by those who want to be in power. Then I start to wonder, what happens to a person who loses their values and even their soul.
Trump committed unprecedented crimes.
Your ability to sum up the long and complex into such a few words has made you a national treasure and a personal favorite. Thank you Robert.
The whole thing is frustrating due to the fact that our justice system takes forever. Now the DOJ will spend who knows how long going through all the transcripts from the committee to ensure that there's not something in them that can possibly diminish their case. The mass media will find more stories to report on in the report and transcripts as well. 45 is still in the mass media cycle every day. and more than likely will continue to be at least up through 2024. When will it all stop? All this for a blatant, very-easy-to-see string of obvious fraud, lies, and illegal activities. Yet, here we are rambling on and on about it all as nobody is ultimately held accountable. What a disaster!
And we still have to endure the likes of Guiliani, Sydney Powell, Roger Stone, Steve Bannon, the Trumps, John Eastman, Jordan/Gohmert/Biggs/Goshar/Cruz/Hawley/Green/Boebert/et al. et al. free as birds, spewing their bilge, whipping up the crowd, dialing for dollars.
And William Barr is some kind of "truth-sayer" now? Really?! Is HE on the criminal referral list? If not, why not?
Annie Cross ; William Barr should have lost his license long ago, after Iran/Contra, IMHO.
Hear, hear!
Others have seen people such as Barr go forward without consequence. I am hopeful this is changing for the future.
Frankom : Wouldn't it be great to see a legal French Revolution style reckoning of this mob and it's leaders? Without the guillotine. Just keep 'em out of office/power and maybe get them to therapy....
Heck yeah! They need a jolt.
Therapy, fine, but make THEM pay!
kdsherpa ; Yes. Make them pay for the therapy. ; I was trying to be facetious though! LOL!
Annie, I see and agree with your concerns. I think the legal folks are scared of Trump and his scummy lawyers too. It is time someone in authority gets some courage and looks for a wide variety of ways to shut down the Trump organization. One indictment from the DOJ simply isn't going to do it, that is if it ever comes. Trump is an ignorant fool, but he is smart in surrounding himself with people who do know how to get around the law and to ignore whatever would stop their appalling behavior. A DC court should be able to try Trump and his accessories for stealing the documents from the White House. That should be an ordinary crime of theft. That would be a good way to start. They could charge him for each box of documents stolen or several times for the lying that all of the documents had been handed back. Let's try that route first since Garland and his crew are so worried about every dotted t and crossed i.
I was not very old when the Rosenbergs went to the gallows for treason. I wasn’t very old when President Kennedy was blown apart by an assassin bullet now tied to the Dulles CIA , another mob of complicit
Power mongers, I was actually working in Central and South America when Reagan was selling arms to Iran. I sat in the Watergate inquiry because of a friend who was Senator Irving’s lead council..... on and on and on....
I am fairly bright and think this latest test of our commitment to the LAW could actually make up for a huge discrepancy in holding those guilty of crime accountable .
We can only pat ourselves on the back for being a Great Country” by being so.
The whole world will be watching .
Jean. I remember most of the events you mentioned. We the people have not always held the rich and powerful accountable for anything they have done. Even when someone rich and powerful has been sentenced and actually imprisoned, it is to a prison that is more like a vacation spot than like the prisons poor Black and Latino men are sent to and often end up dying in. No prison should be an inhumane place but the rich and powerful, mostly white, of course, don't have to worry about anything inhumane because We the People can't seem to see those guys as real criminals. They dress well, usually are physically attractive (OK, maybe not Trump), and believe and spread the myth of themselves getting their wealth on their own, OK, often taking money from the poor (cheating the poor out of money), but they don't need it as much as the rich guys do. Often our laws protect the rich and powerful as so many are trying to use the law now to protect Donald Trump, an ordinary criminal who happens to have a lot of money he did not come by honestly. Trump's cadre is filled with other rich and sometimes powerful men and a few women who should face justice, but probably won't. We are, and will be judged by how our justice system works and whether there is any kind of equity. We'll see in this case. We haven't done so well in the past.
It is frustrating beyond measure, from everything we all grew up knowing about right and wrong. However, keep the faith all. We (region of Southeast PA) worked the grassroots level extremely hard in 2022 and flipped our little corner to blue, and it was our efforts all added together to do it. We are battling the “laboratories of autocracy” in PA! (Read David Pepper)
Eric, hi neighbor. Yes, folks here in southeast PA did work hard to move our region to blue. I think people got so sick of seeing other places, particularly blue ones getting more things done and having good legislators, something we lacked for decades. We now have that and this seems to be a much more hopeful place. Now, I would like to see other places do what has been done here.
As I have told others, as far as Trump is concerned I neither cared for nor watched his show before, and I didn't watch his latest stab (literally) as Top Dog in the kennel. Pull the plug on the coverage already, because that's all he craves is the attention he never got as a kid, except steering him to be as predatory as his sires. He is a hollow man who needs external validation to make hiim feel whole.
If you watch mainstream news media, it's unavoidable, so the next best thing is not watch any mainstream media and just read the publications you find to be the most trustworthy and less honed in on 45.
Amen to that. And this site is one of the best.
There’s no one on this earth who would like to see IQ45 in an orange jumpsuit more than I would. Nonetheless, I’ll be stunned if indictments ever materialize from the DOJ.
Then prepare to be stunned by Jack Smith. You may have read about his reputation. If not, dig into it. You might find it reassuring.
Yeah, I've read about Smith, that he's a tenacious dude, etc,, etc. I remain skeptical that the existing power structure will let him land a fish of this size. That said, I'd be thrilled to be proven wrong. If this happens and I'm in a bar at the time, I'll buy a round for the house.
Bill, I am looking to be reassured. The DOJ is functioning in uncharted waters and does not have much to guide them. I want to think Garland, Smith, et al will carry through, but I also know the American people have a really short attention span and will soon dismiss January 6th as just any riot and those who planned it as "well, just because I say to do something doesn't mean you should." I say, go for the theft charges first. They would be ordinary charges that judges and courts know how to deal with. They could follow the path used when smaller actors stole or inadvertently took secret documents and are now doing time. The DC courts should do this and give DOJ some more time for whatever it is they are doing or not doing.
Might as well dress to match his phony hair.
professor,
as is often the case, I wake up to pee, open my computer, and you suck me in. I suppose I should thank you for that. You are more interesting then my incontinence.
I watched the hearing and almost fell asleep, a sign of my old age and the fact that there was little new in most of the hearing. I was dozing when the referral was made. It has been over 40 years since I was in law school and I either forgot or never knew what a congressional referral meant. I marked on my long list of thing to learn, to find out.
If as you say, the referral means nothing legally, then my memory is not as bad as it could be.
The evidence against trump seems overwhelming. I look forward to reading the report then it is released.
I have to admit that I would enjoy seeing Trump behind bars but suspect that will not happen. One part of the law that I remember is that our "Criminal Justice" system is designed to let 40 guilty people free rather then convict one innocent person. That system does not work for most people, but I suspect it does for somebody with huge resources. I hope I am proven wrong but I am sure that it would be years before a conviction if ever.
Well on that note, I will go back to bed.
thanks again, for all that you do. I hope the new year brings you light and joy
Professor. Thank you for your Up to Date news and analysis of the January 6 Insurrection and the hearings. Today’s wrap was what those of us who watched every hearing knew, but now they have provided overwhelming evidence and facts that TFG and those who aided him in his criminal behavior should be held accountable. We hope for Justice. For consequences. I’m looking inside TFG’s head right now and he’s thinking he squeezed out of Impeachments so why should this be different. We’re hoping Mr. TFG that Justice Matters and you’re about to find out you’ve hit the wall. Put away that Superman suit because it won’t be allowed where you go next. DOJ, do your job.
Irenie
As satisfying as it would be to see TFG doing his perp walk, it won't happen. He'll be on a private jet to somewhere that doesn't extradite before the ink on the arrest warrant is dry.
Maybe, maybe not. I don't think the DOJ will announce the impending arrest of trump.
Cheryl, yes, let’s both be “right.” If he escapes, that would also be ok. Just be gone!!! But, he’s left behind a movement that is part of our world landscape of wealth, power. Autocracy. He’s dominated the airwaves, the news, and breathed life into a base of citizens waiting to be heard and recognized. So we still have to protect our Democracy and our country. Lessons learned these past years about dictators, and the social and political damage they cause. The list is too long. Onward.
Irenie and DLM
I hope I'm wrong! I would LOVE to see him arrested before he can flee!
Cheryl, yes, and Trump will carry with him as many of those stolen documents as he can to use to keep him in money and recognition. I wonder if he runs, some Secret Service will run with him.
The January 6th Committee are heroic patriots. They did their job, dancing backwards in heels. Now it’s the DOJ’s turn to put this grifter in jail. As Attorney General Merrick Garland stated, no one is above the law. No one.
He fomented and participated in an insurrection to steal the outcome of the election and destroy American democracy. He should spend the rest of his life in prison, but will likely escape to Russia when he realizes he is going to Leavenworth.
But he may not like Russia either. I wonder how long Putin would put up with him?
UAE. 2 Trump Resorts. No extradition. Another project funded by Saudi money in Qatar.
Can join Spanish King Juan Carlos who stole the Spanish treasury and has been living large there for years.
Daniel Solomon ; It's worse than I thought. No wonder he does not seem to be afraid of much.
Excellent prediction. Maybe the Arabs will establish a millionaire oasis there for convicted felons with the country protected by the US militaries at our expense.
Eager to see what DOJ has and will do regardless of J6 committee, which I believe did an outstanding job bringing evidence to the public. Even though they have no prosecutorial powers they have laid out a clear case of what X45 was involved with, did or failed to do. He should NEVER be allowed in public office, or be able to influence politics again. He's circling the drain, but his sycophants and hangers on will believe what they want regardless of what this hard working and decent committee showed us. I think DOJ with its appointed justice has a mass of evidence that will bring charges not just for X45 but all those involved in the criminal activities especially the worthless immoral and lying groupies at the top.
I also hope House members involved are censured before the new term. Jordan, Biggs, MTG, Perry are worthless stormtroopers for their fuhrer. I'm ashamed that they are even in Congress.
High praise for the REAL Congress members who worked through all the nonsense to bring the facts to the American people. This was NOT A WITCH HUNT, it was Democracy in a turning point in American history.