Even if Biden win in November these people will not fade away. You are stuck with them and will have to cope somehow. And we were worried about Islamic Fundamentalism. . .
White nationalists, Christian nationalists, are allied with dominion theology, also known as dominionism, a group of Christian political ideologies that seek to institute a nation governed by Christians and based on their understandings of biblical law. Extents of rule and ways of acquiring governing authority are varied.
Currently, Justices Thomas and Alito admit that they apply "natural law" before they use the text of the Constitution. To them natural law is Catholic dogma.
In her Substack this morning, Heather Cox Richardson points out that it was the Confederacy, not the U.S. government, that sought to align the state with God. A nation was more than the “aggregation of individuals,” one Presbyterian minister preached, it was “a sort of person before God,” and the government must purge that nation of sins.
Confederates not only invoked “the favor and guidance of Almighty God” in their Constitution, they established as their motto “Deo vindice,” or “God will vindicate.”
The United States, in contrast, was recentering democracy during the war, and it rejected the alignment of the federal government with a religious vision. When reformers in the United States tried to change the preamble of the U.S. Constitution to read, “We, the people of the United States, humbly acknowledging Almighty God as the sources of all authority and power in civil government, the Lord Jesus Christ, as the Ruler among nations, and His revealed will as of supreme authority, in order to constitute a Christian government, and in order to form a more perfect union,” the House Committee on the Judiciary concluded that “the Constitution of the United States does not recognize a Supreme Being.”
Josh Hawley, the prophet of dominionism is full of shit. He lies when he quotes Patrick Henry. “It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason, peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here.”
Not just Josh Hawley, they are all full of shit. I was gently indoctrinated into a fairly liberal denomination of Christianity in my childhood. I feel I have a good understanding of the teachings of Jesus. These fundamentalist whackos are far from the tenets of Christianity. As an atheist I’m a good deal more “Christian” than they are.
They have a Constitutional right to believe but have a Constitutional prohibition from forcing those beliefs on the rest of us.
1. Even white supremacists need their SSA and Medicare.
2. Many religious sects support a division of church and state.
3. Within Christianity, the social gospel emphasizes it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich oligarch to make it to heaven.
4. The model should be Jimmy Carter -- not a-holes like Jerry Falwell.
The Baptists of yore were big on separation of church and state. When JFK was elected, some got upset that he was going to listen to the Pope rather than his conscience. But now, they're listening to a different voice, and I noticed that Rosalynn Carter's funeral was in an Atlanta Methodist Church. I believe the Carters' Baptist church is outside the Southern Baptist Convention, which has moved steadily to the right since the late seventies. A lot of it had to do with race and uppity women, not to mention people outside the heterosexual norms of old.
Having lived with my uncle a Southern Baptist Preacher, I can emphatically state that the Baptists of yore were big on separation of church and state. That was only a tactical position, in opposition of JFK because he was Catholic, they believed that a Catholic president would promote Catholicism, which was and is considered competition for suckers money.
"The Baptists..."---and still are, just not the Southern Baptists, who have morphed into a truly fundamentalist group. I would never again associate as SBC. The Cooperative Baptist Fellowship is the group where the sane Baptists went to--they still believe in the separation of church and state.
Theocracy/ideocracy. There must have been an evolutionary benefit for humanity to have evolved into people grouping together with a shared belief made up by opportunists to get followers who pay them.
Christian values and the values of the major religions have endured because the teachings are the truth and humans instinctively know that. But then we have the oligarchical opportunists who twist the truth to suit their greed and need for power over others.
How do humans evolve past this fault in human nature to follow the liars? How about public education and journalism not controlled by the unfettered capitalists?
Gloria there are no "truths" in any religion. Religion is ala carte, people take what fulfills their needs and assuages their fears and disregards the rest. Thomas Jefferson noted that and took scissors to the Bible. You can google and download The Jefferson Bible if curious.
This prince of peace also told his followers to bring those who would not have me reign over them and slay them. He also said "sell your cloaks and buy a sword" He also said, according to Paul, that women should be submissive, and if they wish to learn something, ask their husband.
By default I was an advocate for the Amish communities in the townships in Pa I represented. They object to practically all government, to the concept of "the commonwealth."
But think concentric circles. Like domiminumists, IMHO the binding force is rapture and the prospect of a better world. Their lifestyle is the path.
By contrast a lot of the religious groups that came her lived in differing forms of communism, socialism and paternalism. They see themselves as the "remnant," superior to the rest of us.
The Amish are still here. Those other groups, like the Shakers, are relegated to "the dust bin of history."
Absolutely- these are not Christians- plus I feel God created this country to welcome ALL people - no matter your background or religion- that is why people are lined up waiting to get in - a land of the FREE
No god created this country. It was created by conquerors, not just “settlers”, on stolen land. Until we can face that and honestly grapple with it, we will be enabling the continued rise of fascism. Those tendencies are in part rooted in our history.
It is a mistake attributing anything to a god or gods, because men use this thing called god, or Allah or Krshna or Oden as a sock puppet, to control other men.
They absolutely are Christians. They're acting the exact same way most Christians have been acting since Constantine adopted Christianity as the state religion of the Roman empire.
Being Christian doesn't prevent someone from being evil, and being evil doesn't negate someone's Christianity. Historically speaking, Christianity often made people worse. See: the Confederacy and the current Republican party.
No True Scotsman fallacy. Christianity is what Christians do with it, and today's evangelicals are acting the exact same way the vast majority of Christians have been acting since Constantine adopted Christianity as the state religion of the Roman empire.
Christianity is not inherently benign or benevolent. Insisting otherwise by claiming evangelicals are "fake" Christians or "far from the tenets of Christianity" just reinforces the underlying problem. It's also a huge middle finger to those of us who Christians have been trying to eradicate for the past several centuries.
"Christianity is what Christians do with it". That is an interesting concept that seems to deny that Religion comes from up on high.
And there seems to be some truth to this: In France, my mom and dad were excommunicated Catholics..
Excommunication normally extends to their descendants like myself. However, my local priest came to my house and insisted that I be raised in the Catholic faith. I saw nothing there but the desire to have me go to Church and especially, give alms. Churches have a vested interest in living off of the generosity of their flock. When they lose their flock, they change their "principles". I got out as soon as I could.
My niece is in a convent in France and in her opinion, these 'evangelists' are heretics in that they do not abide by the teachings of Jesus. I tend to agree with her.
"That is an interesting concept that seems to deny that Religion comes from up on high." I can say with absolute surety that christianity isn't from "on high". We can trace its history from its split from judaism, to its takeover of the Roman Empire, to the current day.
Your niece's opinion on the matter is both irrelevant and ridiculous. Jesus sure as shit hasn't stopped priests from raping kids, or from ordering genocides for that matter. Until christianity's god decides to get his ass down here and make an appearance the only thing we can base christainity's claims and validity on is its history. And I hate to break it to you, but christianity's history makes Game of Thrones look like Sesame Street.
Same Here David Deane. From my reply: "Evangelicals and other religious fanatics would be abhorred by Christ as they tend to ignore all his actual teachings. (I, like many Atheists have actually read the Gospels; Matthew, Mark, Luke & John)."
I was dunked under water at age 9, so officially was Southern Baptist (a terrorist org. - an uncle in MS was deacon of his Baptist church and also in the KKK.)
Well, Nobody's Perfect. :) The problem with this fairy tale is that authorship is unknown, inumerably handed by word of mouth until someone wrote it down. Unlike the Book of Marvel where Stan Lee handed down the moral conflicts & wins first person.
Daniel, those are the kinds of questions I wish interviewers should be asking Trumpers and Trumpettes as well as the folks who want this to be a pseudo-christian nation. I'd love to hear the answers to questions about Social Security, Medicare, or questions related to the programs helping children that Republicans want to cut. I am wondering how many thinking people would agree that an embryo is a child. Somehow, our media just can't bring themselves to demand more of interviewees. Maybe our media is not really interested in truth or spreading the truth, just keeping the disinformation coming.
Only a fascist motherf****r would invent quotations from an American founding father to propagandize Christianity as inherent in the American nation state.
Yes - full of shit!!! MTGreene in particular has NO Christian values - I would say she would sell her soul to the devil himself to be part of Trump admin.
She's acting the exact same way the bulk of Christians have been acting since Constantine. Liberal/non-shitty Christians appearing in any significant numbers is a distinctly NEW thing, historically speaking. Being evil doesn't stop someone from being Christian and being Christian has never stopped anyone from being evil.
Yes: I think that it is a distinctly new thing *in this country*. In Europe, France specifically, many say they are Christians, but very few PRACTICE. [i.e: go to church, give alms to the poor, speak about the Bible all the time].
Yet I assure you, they do see themselves as Christians, with a very solid Socialist outlook, as opposed to MAGAs and they feel animated by the Spirit of Jesus [the socialist one]. It was God that came with a sword, and it is God that is vengeful, not Jesus or his mother Mary, in their opinion. They just feel that your faith is yours, not to be touched by government, either to be favored or ostracized. They do not speak of their faith all the time, because they realize that in France [also a very cosmopolitan country, a melting pot, like the US] discussing the Bible or the Coran or the Torah will only lead to divisions and bickering that cannot be fixed.
That is PRECISELY what is happening here. Many calling themselves Christian but barely knowing any Scripture, teachings of Christ, the Sermon in the Mount, etc.
It's not a new thing in this country. It's a new thing across the globe. Most of Europe's internecine wars were either started by or exacerbated by the church and its various factions. Hell, the phrase "kill them all and let god sort them out" comes from the Albigensian Crusade, which took place in france. And that's not even touching the Inquisition or the CENTURIES of persecution and genocide the Jews faced at christians' hands, all in the name of christ.
The socialist christians you're talking about are just as christian as american evangelicals. Thing is, american evangelicals are the poster children of christianity. They're the ones who are acting more in line with historical christianity than any socialist christians around.
Dominionism is known as Christian Reconstruction, and it is ecumenical, there maybe be some protestant sects that eschew Catholicism, but the first encounter I had with one was in 1997 on the internet, he was Catholic and told me that I would bet mine, when they got power and restored order.
Dominionism was founded by R J Rushdoony and Ted Cruz's father Rafael, it makes the Taliban look liberal, it is a Christian version of ISIS.
They want Mosaic Law to replace the consitution.
Mosaic law is the 613 "there will be no or do nots" of Leviticus, except for those that they find inconvenient, like wearing clothes of mixed fabrics, or eating pork or shellfish.
They would execute less than faithful Christians, adulterers, gays, rebellious teens, and their preferred form of execution is stoning. Because (very libertarian) stones are free and it is a community involved event.
The official Dominionist organization is the Chalcedon Institute, of which Gary North, the Y2K conspiracy theorist was a founding member.
When I started posting links to the Royal Race of the Redeemed onto the net
Regardless of the excuse, regardless of the dogma, religion is a bout one thing and one thing only. Control. Control of a tribe or population (Russia is a good example as the Russian orthodox church keeps the little Russki's in line), Islam is another, but not limited to national borders it is transnational, global.
Underpinning it all, that which sucks in the sheep, is patriarchalism, that man is the head of the family. Augustus Caesar (Octavian) edicted it with his Law of Pater Familia, in which the man had life and death control over his wife and children.
If you can't be King of the Domain, then at least the man can be King of his own little domain.
I highly recommend any of the books by Holly Pivec on the NAR (New Apostolic Reformation) movement, which adopts dominionism, among other Biblical heresies. That movement is represented by Bethel Church in Redding, CA. I also recommend Tim Alberta's "The Kingdom, the Power, and the Glory", which illustrates how far from Biblical teaching some of these so-called churches have become. As a follower of Christ brought up with years of reading and studying the teachings of the Gospels and the New Testament church, I can state that some of these churches have emphasized their own desires for political power at the expense of abandoning the teachings of Christ. While there are many practicing Christians who do seek to follow Christ's teachings, the "churches" preaching Christian Nationalism have been the fastest-growing.
NO ONE who takes the name of Christ and simultaneously stands for bigotry, hatred, exclusivity, negligence of the poor, and close-minded ignorance can be following Christ. Jesus said to "do unto the least of these...as you would do unto me", and "love your enemies".
Oh yeah, another question. How can Trump be the second coming of Jesus? What does Scripture say about the actual transportation to be used in that second appearance? He's supposed to be born of a woman, again, and raised again? I honestly don't know. Asking.
Daniel, there is so much ignorance among Christian fundamentalists. They spend so much time picking and choosing random verses from the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament) to use to show that they with God at their side (or in their pocket) have the right to make this a "Christian" nation in their own image. The words of Jesus as reported in the gospels are pretty much irrelevant. In reality, it is white supremacy under a name Republicans think is more palatable. I guess it is since so many Republicans who would hate to be called racist or misogynists go along with Christian Nationalism because it sounds better. It does mean pretty much the same thing, though - rich white male supremacy. We all need to call it out wherever it is because it is destructive and backward. We the People are the majority. We don't need a bunch of scared white pseudo-christian men dictating life for us, even in the South.
As stated above, Christians pick and choose,copy and paste, the NT to fulfill their needs and assuage their fears. Thomas Jefferson took scissors to the NT and excised all of Paul, and more like the verses in Luke where the said kill those who will not have me reign over them, and sell your cloak and buy a sword.
Luke: 19:27 But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me.’”
Thank you, Daniel. I was not aware of confederates wanting to establish the type of government that these republicans are wanting. That was an interesting read.
Peggy, yes, the Confederacy was not a program of freedom; it was about continuing slavery in all its forms and forcing Christianity, its own brand of course, on all its people. It seems we have not truly defeated the confederacy, just postponed their rise to prominance. It is time we find ways to defeat that insanity once and for all for the sake of our democracy. I always heard "the south shall rise again." My college friends in Tennessee who said it were joking, but it seems that instead of rising with positive ideas, new technologies, healthy happy people, they are rising with authoritarianism, anti-democratic ideas, the highest poverty and mother and infant death rates as well as a push to increase child labor, abuse of immigrants, and lies about global warming while their people suffer from the impacts of global warming. Amazing!!
You know what puzzles me, Ruth? America has and always will be a melting pot of different people, cultures, and religion. It is absurd to thing that these republicans are pushing for one religion! Seriously, all they need to do is look around our country! These different cultures and religions in many cases have blended together with others. No American citizen should ever be told they must practice one religion. That's ludicrous! Also, one of the reasons many left the Old World was to come here, to America, to get away from religious persecution and practice their faith their way. This ridiculous dream by republicans is just never going to happen.
Peggy, the problem is that these Christian Nationalists are only using religion as a mechanism to control others. I doubt most of them could say which are the elements they espouse most and where in scripture it comes from. Even when they have a scriptural reference, it is nearly always out of context. There are passages in the gospels that contradict the larger message. That bothered me until one of my professors mentioned that the scriptures had been copied and translated often which means it can happen that people put their own slant on a passage. The Roman Empire wanted Christianity to be a tool of its rule. It was an authoritarian system, so authoritarianism does come through in some of the early church writings, including the New Testament. Authoritarians who are into power-grabbing and money-grubbing can find verses here and there they can cite that OKs what they want to do to other people if twisted in just a certain way. Christians are supposed to love God and show that love by loving oneself and one's neighbors which includes everyone. That is the primary tenet. Lie, cheat, destroy everything you can for the money, take away rights, stand and watch people drown because "they don't belong here," give the rich whatever they want, steal if you don't get caught, claim you have immunity from committing crimes, none of these and the rest of Christian Nationalism can be honestly considered Christian. So, it seems Christians need to stand up and declare that in public, and often. We have been a diverse group of people living in what is now the United States from the beginning and anyone who claims the founders wanted this to be a "Christian" country is lying, pure and simple, and lying is now what Republicans do regularly to the point where they often don't think about what they are saying. Thinking for them is now dangerous since their lying colleagues will shun them or drive them out of office or both. Courage is not a Republican trait and has not been for decades, I am guessing since before Reagan. If We the People permit it, Republicans will corrupt our democracy beyond easy recovery even if we can get them out of office. We need to wake up and be sure we don't lose hope, something Republicans are HOPING will happen. Disgraceful!!
Well said, Ruth!! My sister always keeps reminding me the Bible was written by men and all of my writing professors use to tell me that even when you write using references, facts, and quotes you will always tend to put your own slant on it! Whether it be Yahway, Allah, God, Witr, or Adonai every religion has a supreme being they worship. To say that God should be the only one is telling whole religions that theirs does not count and they must believe in God. It is wrong and it does need to stop. We are not a Christian Nationalist country, we are a Democracy and in that Democracy we allow freedom of religion. That is why our forefathers sought to keep church and state separate.
It comes together and makes sense, though, doesn’t it, Peggy… Knowing the South used the Bible to justify holding slaves, it makes sense they’d seek to ensure that people hold the Bible in ultimate esteem, lest people — and the enslaved people themselves — recognize the monstrosity of slavery… Not that White Sputherners didn’t truly “believe” their own interpretations of the Bible, but foisting that on everyone else would have cemented their slavery interpretation for many more generations … Mmmm, yes, I didn’t know that part of their agenda was to establish a Christian nationalism, but it’s not really a surprise. That end-game of using religion and gods to ensure political control is as old as our species’ belief in gods
Good point, Pat. I know that 1. The bible was written by men interpreting God 2. The Old Testament was God's covenant with his chosen people, the Jewish people and the new testament was Jesus's covenant with us. 3. You cannot pick and choose verses in the Bible and then twist them to fit your own narrative. 4. The Bible is a guide to help Christians live a good, decent life. That being said, the South will never rise again because we simply will not let it!! Their ideas and beliefs were based on racism, white supremacy, and rich people being in control. There was a reason for including the part about separation of church and state and it should definitely stay that way. These republicans need to know that you can't strut to church on Sunday and talk about being a Christian when you act like the devil's kin the rest of the time!!
But Peggy, the south has risen again, that is what MAGA is all about. The ideology of the south never died it just went into hibernation, and awaiting their "great man" their avatar to rise up, and he did.
Actually I don’t think it ever did hibernate. I remember a poster I had in the sixties of a bunch of smug good old boy cops with the title “Support your local police.” Obviously it was ironic. I remember buying it at the Free Press Bookstore in Westwood Village. My point is that this southern racist culture has always been with us. What boggles my mind is that these people are still fighting the Civil War.
Biden is Catholic and clear that his personal views and beliefs have no place in governance. I think it’s a great example of someone who personally is not aligned with choice and refuses to take choice from others.
I only mention him because the two supreme justices were mentioned as being Catholic and utilizing their version of Catholic theology before the constitution. And I think that Biden is an excellent example of how maintaining one’s own beliefs and supporting the rule of law can be done.
Important to note that the Catholic church has a charismatic branch which aligns with Christian nationalism. It came about in the late sixties, but really picked up steam with the emergence of the Tea Party. Many social justice Catholics and traditional Catholics are uncomfortable with the charismatic branch, especially since it's emphasis is more on individual needs and emotions, and less on service and caring for others.
If you use the Bible as your guide, it has lots of advice on concubines and slaves. You can sell your daughter into slavery in a neighboring nation but not in your own nation. I have never had a concubine issue so this Biblical advice is a bit dated to my modern lifestyle. What the Bible has no guidance on is IVF treatments, the Higgs-Boson particle (God particle), genetically modified food, DNA cures for genetic diseases, AI warfare, social media,.... and a million other modern issues. In summary, the Bible is not relevant to most critical modern questions. Should we create dark matter in a cyclotron, or would that risk the collapse of our galaxy? What guidance does the Bible offer? Nix, Nada, less than a quantum vacuum of ambient virtual particles.
To be deliberately snarky, I used to ask my overly Bible-dependent friends to show me that God would never allow one of his children to be the one to introduce the technology that you reference. After all, are we not created in his image?
While some sects of Dominionism (best to capitalize it as it is a actually a thing, founded by Jr Rushdoony and Ted Cruz Father Rafael Cruz. it wants an America founded on Mosaic Laws, of which there are 613 in Leviticus, but of course they skip over most, like wearing clothing of mixed fabric or not eating pork or shell fish.
What they do want is the death penalty for less than faithful Christians, women who defy male rule, adulterers (mostly women) and rebellious teens and the method of execution is pure libertarian........stoning, because stones are free.
Dominionism is known as Christian Reconstruction, aka Christian NAZIs and they make the Taliban look liberal.. and that says a lot. Perhaps more akin to ISIS.
Here; Check this site out, it explains it better.
Also it is ecumenical, some Protestant sects may not recognize Catholics, but there are Catholic Christian Reconstrucionists, especially among the Trads (traditional or right wing organisations, like Opus Dei, Pius XII, Catholic Truth, Sojourners) I am positive that Mike Pence is a Dominionist. The first one I met back in 1998 was a Catholic, telling me I would get mine, when they restored order.
Catholics are experiencing something akin to a civil war among themselves. On one are the fundamentalists allied with libertarians, on the other side are those allied with Pope Francis, who want to disassociate the Church from vested interests and protect the poor from climate change and predatory capitalism. The former use LGBT issues and conspiracy theories to retain power.
and one of the findamentalist leaders in that came from St Louis. Raymond Burke, whom the Pope has punished. I was sitting in the rectory ? eating fish when Cardinal Burker was milking his rounds to the people eating there.With his mien and attendents in tow it reminded me a great deal of generals and their "horseholders" making their way among the troops. Same concept.
Recommend John Meachum's "And There Was Light" and "White Too Long" by Robert P Jones. Both go extensively into the twisted and anti-Biblical theology the South created to rationalize the continuance of slavery. That theology has remained present, and sadly, has recently resurfaced in a slightly different twisted form. Of course, NONE of this was taught to me as a student in Texas schools lol.
Yes I read Heather's blog too. Not the first time I've wondered if we shouldn't have let them secede. y'know, "Go in good health. We'll make some trade agreements. Done."
PAll of this is esspecially crazy because Jesus, the Christ in Christians didn't teach law. There was at the time a great tradition of rabbinical law. And some people saw the Torah as a laws for people to live by. But jesus broke those traditions a preached instead lessons to guide your life. One suggests a best direction the other limits your actions. The other difference was Jesus almost always talked about ways to think about love and value each other and the world God gave use. Rabbinical Law told people what not to do so that God.
Some times I wonder are fundamentalist Christians less Christian if they are ignoring the way Jesus acted and always promoted inclusion and love.
I'm sorry but I just took a course in this stuff and what he was preaching is in Deuteronomy. He probably said his prayers 3 times a day. Recited the Amidah.
The foundation for everything is Judea-Christianity is the Golden Rule, which despite propaganda to the contrary comes from the Old Testament.
In fact it probably was also in other religious works like Gilgamesh.
I truly think we can still pull our country out of a terrible trough. But it’s going to take time to bring us around and away from fascism. The United States flirted seriously with fascism in the past, and it was our reaction to Adolph Hitler that turned us away from it.
Are our memories of that time fading? Egad. Do we need to be reminded?
What will we need to see the writing on the wall this time around? Donald is a pretty serious object lesson for Bad Thinking, but he’s also a clown, and clowns aren’t as scary as Nazis.
At the very least, we need our country NOT to let that clown back into office. But we also need to spare our country being under the thumb of the real leaders of the fascist movement that is afoot right now — people like The Heritage Society, The Tea Party, The So-Called “Freedom” Caucus, and the people bankrolling the MAGA machine.
Trump is a tool. He isn’t able to really run anything except his mouth. And even his mouth doesn’t do very well a lot of the time. But the Ultra-Right Wing machine is much more savvy and dangerous than he is, and they have a plan. They even brag about it
I hope people will see what’s in store, if we let the Evangelical Right team up with the oligarchs and usher in MAGA 2024 — and Project 2025 to remake our constitutional republic as a theocracy lead by a “strongman” president.
We cannot afford ANY Republican right now, unfortunately. The “machine” running that party is bent on remaking U.S. politics on Christian Nationalist grounds.
If we hope to turn that around, we need to vote Blue this year.
{If we want even the Democrats to do a better job of governing, we have to stay involved and energized to communicate the voices of the people and be louder than the oligarchs, but for November, our job is simple —VOTE BLUE.]
The Christian Nationalists would love nothing more than getting their foot in the door to teach creationism in our public schools. Mike Johnson dismisses. the separation of church and state that is a key principle of a functioning. democracy. Furthermore, the SC Christian extremists..have been violating. this. Key principle for years. by their partisan decisions. Let us not also dismiss Lenard Leo's hand in shaping the. SC docket behind the scenes.
We need to show what these theocracies are like in the many parts of the world they exist to make them real in people’s minds....Iran, Taliban, some African countries. Your life will be controlled and you will lose so many freedoms, not just the sexual ones.
Betty, Leonard Leo is one of those money-grubbing, power-grabbing rich guys who loves to act as though he is playing chess where he gets all the moves. It is sad so many people who are supposedly well-educated should fall under his "spell." Maybe he is watching to find people who are just as money-grubbing and power-grabbing as he is, carefully grooming them to do his bidding on whatever court he can get them onto. I blame him for our courts' bad, unconstitutional decisions lately, but also the Republican and some Democratic senators who know who and what he is, yet approved Leo's sycophants for the various courts. Mitch McConnell should be ashamed for what he has done to this country, but when one has no moral compass, shame is pretty much impossible. I hope he goes down in history as the villain he is. Yeah, how Christian of him, lying, filibustering nearly every positive bill that came up, cheating the American people, and pretending an insurrectionist wasn't really one. I am wondering what Leo owes McConnell for doing Leo's bidding. Or, maybe McConnell has always been on board with working to wreck our democracy. He is old, so I guess he thinks it won't matter since he'll be gone by the time the consequences of his unchristian behavior are felt.
Hey Curiosity, I know about the kind of thing your sister was talking about. Then, if the groups are refused, they whine and complain that there is free speech, and they should be able to present their views. Free speech does not mean that anyone has the right to lie to our children. Evolution is the truth as we know it now. Whatever fundamentalists of any kind are preaching that is not evolution is false and does not have to be part of any curriculum in a public school - end of discussion!
Precisely. I seethe every time I hear 'free speech' screeched about by immoral cretins to defend their vicious, harmful words. They have conveniently forgotten that with great freedom comes great responsibility.
Particularly in situations surrounding abortion rights. So many self-proclaimed 'good' folks wag their jaws about the evils of abortion yet how many of them are actually willing to stand up and adopt one or more of these tragically unwanted children? F***ing hypocrites!
I was surprised coming to St Louis in 2005 when I had a coversation with a middle school teacher in a pubic school who said he and others did not teach evolution, or at most gave it short shrift, because of the parents. It began to dawn on me I was no longer in an area of the country where the Enlightenment had taken a firm hold. And this was in an urban area, not rural Missouri.
Why not, that is how this Jesus religion started. Jewish salesmen standing in Roman markets, hawking their wares, which in this case was a pacifist ideology.
The Pharisees were actually the literati, the educated and cosmopolitan among the Jews of Jerusalem. Free thinkers, familiar with Greek Stoicism.
Unable to defeat Rome from without, they came up with the idea of defeating it from within by preaching a cult of pacifism, and it worked, but not overnight, over centuries.
What the Christian world refers to as the Bible,is simply a collection of dogma, some written, some not, but transcribed, sorted, sifted and approved by a group of men headed by an ascetic name of Jerome, assisted by one whom the cult of Rome called the Great one and canonized as St Augustine.
This first "Bible" was the Latin Vulgate, written not in the language of the patricians or now the Church of Rome, but in the language of the people, the vulgar or Vulgate
And of course the Roman Government, under Constantine, had the final say and added their own.
The whole thing is a concoction, out of thin air, yet people have been murdered,persecuted and tortured because people have this need to believe, if for no other reason than to assuage their fears and fulfill their needs, to fit in, to escape punishment for being an outsider, a non believer.
Yes, Lee. The concept of truth has always been so easily distorted and manipulated to shield and justify benighted special interest factions. The longer and louder lies persist, they are adopted as their own truths. The phrase, 'witch hunt' , so readily bandied about by Trump and his sycophants seemed an absurdity on its face, but we should also hear it as a warning because if this POS gets elected again, any individual or groups that oppose his regime will be justified as 'prey'.
I believe it was Hannah Ahrendt who said something to the effect that the authoritarian telegraphs his intention by accusing his opponent of that of which he is guilty or has intentions.
Susan, fundamentalism of any kind is a problem. The thing is that someone or small group decides what the "fundamentals" are, then pretend it reflects the full set of beliefs of that faith, claims it is in their tradition and holy book. Some precepts usually are, but the specifics are usually not. The way it worked in the past was that people were kept illiterate, so they didn't really know what the writings of the faith actually said. Now, people in many places are literate and can learn that what the fundamentalists are saying is made up. Those who know then get imprisoned or in some other way shut up so those not aware can continue to be manipulated. Maybe some ads need to be put on TV that describe the value of people of all different faiths working together as many of our founders intended, maybe quoting some of them like Franklin, Jefferson, and even George Washington. Maybe pointing out the ways current fundamentalists have abused their faith and people, while trying to force others to comply to their made-up "Christian" rules could help people wake up and stop blindly following hypocrites who call themselves "Christian," but don't live a faith that would be recognized by anyone in the first or even 18th through 20th centuries who considered themselves Christian. In short, as far as I can tell, the Republican fundamentalists have Trump as their deity, a man who is pretty far from Christian and their principles are money-grubbing and power-grabbing. That does not sound like a religion anyone should be part of.
Ruth, so true. As I have written before, their motto is, in effect, WTOOWJWD: What’s the opposite of what Jesus would do. Too many letters for a T shirt, and it doesn’t flow off the tongue, but it does represent what these self-proclaimed “Christians” (tried not capitalizing, but autocorrect changed it) do.
These turds have been around since “the young guns” arrived in the 90s with Paul Ryan….look where they’re at now…my atheist daughter was recently going to shred her baptism certificate in a purge of paperwork, and I advised her to keep it- she may need it in the future to prove she was Christian!
My Father, who fought in WWII, was firmly against my wife converting to Judaism. That was in 1978. His reasoning was analogous to yours. He feared a time when being a Jew in the US would not be safe.
Wow…no one ever expects the Spanish Inquisition! (I’m guessing by the date you mentioned you might get that reference). That sketch isn’t so funny anymore….
A true statement I believe, Susan. I continue to assert that Trump is not the problem so much as those who consider him their "Useful Idiot." They will still be around after November. They will find another Trump to carry their standard. Sometimes when I read these posts from Robert (Richardson and Joyce Vance too) I feel the need for some sad sarcasm. For example,
Perhaps we should all encourage women who use IFV and have unneeded/unwanted embryos to bequeath them to Judge Parker, Sen. Tuberville, Justice Barret, and the others. Then, the women and their families will be free from legal harassment, including murder charges, and let those who consider them children take responsibility. It would be fair and allow those, like Parker, to demonstrate their moral superiority. So, keep the clinics, and bequeath any remaining embryos - a win/win for everyone.
If one looks at the history of Christianity, one will quickly discover just how many deaths and how much damage to women, families, and communities the church has perpetrated over the centuries. It makes Hitler's holocaust, as horrible as it was, pale by comparison. All that death and destruction in the name of a just and loving God.
Imagine that all these folks' rail against the atrocities in Afghanistan, Iraq, and Iran; their treatment of women especially. Perhaps they are jealous, only wanting the same but under the "Christian" banner. Christian: OK / Muslim: Not OK
Looking at the survey provided in the post, I was not surprised to find that 3/5 of the respondents were from the South and Midwest. Even Dr. Reich tells us to sometimes take surveys with a grain of salt. Imagine what the survey responses might say if, for example, respondents were informed that most religions follow the same basic set of values as do Christians. The survey safely assumes respondents know of any differences, if any, before stating their preference for a Christian America.
Finally, I'll extend my sarcasm to the rights of an embryo, our religious freedoms, and the 2nd Amendment. These same folks who feel that an embryo is a life worth protecting, also feel there should be no regulation concerning "assault" weapons. That oxymoron used to bother me some, until I realized the only way these folks are going to assert and enforce their rigid religious values on the rest of us is through superior firepower. Why give away that power? It's worked for religious zealots for centuries.
Holy Water---At birth, evangelists aren't anointed with the stuff they are forced to drink it. Hence, the induction of an indentured soul. Oddly, they would pick on an intelligence not yet developed to the point where the individual could say "no thank you." Slavery was a form of indentureship, however much worse. Belonging to a religion that doesn't support the truth, is in essence a form of servitude. Sadly the South seems to be still asleep, holding its population in a Van Winkle type grasp. Down there they use religions as a weapon to punish up here we use to expand our conscientiousness. Maybe some of them down there should move to a location up here, where people use their minds to think not to lament the fact that they are missing theirs.
I often think so, but then I watched Shiny Happy People, ostensibly about the Duggar family, but really about the extreme right-evangelical-Christian Nationalism-home schooling-Project Joshua move to change our nation. They do a good job indoctrinating those kids, starting with disciplining babies and screening out the real world. Sad and scary.
As a psychologist: disciplining babies is child abuse. Babies do not have the cognitive capacity to understand, while they will react with fear and contraction.
Some might, but not enough. We see how people become entrenched in their social groups and are afraid to leave them, if leaving even occurs to them. Children raised from infancy in an environment think that is “how things are.”
Jan - every fetus and embryo is "female". "Geneticists have discovered that all human embryos start life as females, as do all embryos of mammals. About the 2nd month the fetal tests elaborate enough androgens to offset the maternal estrogens and maleness develops."
Actually, I have issues with the language used to describe that process — all embryos have characteristics that start out looking female. They are not actually all “females” genetically, though they all look that way very early on. Those characteristics may morph as the action of their particular prenatal environment causes various genes that are present to express or not express. The actual gender that finally results may LOOK various ways, and the individual may experience “self” in many ways. Gender is extremely fluid, but people don’t want to admit it.
I wish more people would read your comment Michael.
Most know that a female carries the X chromosone in her ovum. While the male sperm contributes either an X or Y, but what is not known is that the Y Chromosone is not really a Y but a truncated X, part of one leg of the X is still there, and that is why we all start life as females, and why males have useless nipples. all life was once parthogenetic (virgin birth), but the strategy did not produce offspring that could stand up to ever changing environmental assaults as parthogenesis produces clones.
BTW, Jesus, should be a female, not a male, no Y Chromosone, Unless somehow HaShem fornicated with her. The Quran implies that Al Lihah sent Gabri el, down to do the job,
I don’t believe we ever were. Not yet at least. This is all a natural outgrowth of the fact that “settlers” were actually conquerors and all of this is stolen and pillaged land. If we can face that and actually deal with it, then we are on our way to civilized. Though I think a better goal is honest and equitable. Because the fascists can also try to claim “civilized”. But not honest or equitable.
this is a terrific ruling. What could be better to convince some undecided voters what the agenda of the right really is, and to what extremes they will go to crush peoples personal liberty. That's why Trump came out against it. He knows it's a big loser for his side.
9 Republican Supreme Court justices In Alabama are using Religious beliefs to make a decision that affects all of the people in their state! They need to revert back to the Constitution, namely the 1st amendment, Freedom of Religion!
I suspect that Alabama Bible-belt enthusiasts are out of touch with the Republican base in many other states.
An important element of the Republican base is of the Libertarian persuasion, stressing the value of government non-interference in pretty much everything, especially religion. Libertarians tend to be agnostic or atheistic, providing a grating internal contradiction in the Republican coalition.
Yes Vanyali, no one cares about libertarians, but libertarians have embedded themselves in our politics, as Republicans, Independents and Democrats, and they do have a party which is a throw away.
I'll suggest that there is a difference between the fringe Libertarian Party and libertarian-leaning Republicans who gave momentum to the Tea Party movement. There is no reason to think that old Republican Tea Partiers will now embrace Christian Nationalism, even if they support Trump.
Nice thought John, but wishful thinking. Christian nationalism has taken over the Republican party, and one either goes along or gets out. 20 Republican congress critters are not seeking re election, because of the cult. They know if they stay and fight they will lose anyway, so get while the getting is good.
The old Republican's have become independent Never Trumpers and joined the Lincoln project or the Bulwark, one, Charlie Sykes, is a paid analyst now for MSNBC, so is Tim Miller, a gay libertarian former Republican.
IMO the old Tea Partiers are the base of the MAGA cult, they were as wild and extreme as the MAGAts. I remember groups of them standing on street corners of busy intersecions waving their signs with their stupid hats.
I think the Tea Party was simply the first step in today’s populism. It cloaked itself in the old, tired Republican rhetoric everyone was used to, but I really don’t think that old rhetoric was actually what was animating that movement. The Tea Party was early MAGA.
I'm inclined to see the Tea Party as an outgrowth of the John Birch Society and the Barry Goldwater/Ronald Reagan wing of the Republican party. I'll suggest that Tea Partiers have been uncomfortable with big-spending Donald Trump, especially with all his dog-whistling to the redneck element of his base.
Goldwater was a mixed bag, his thing was anti communism, but he also said "you don't have to be straight to shoot straight, Goldwater was not a cultural warrior
Eventually. I am concerned that the Christian Nationalism wing will completely win out over the libertarian wing. OR, libertarian strongmen will abandon their idea that too much government is a bad idea and will embrace their power, using the Christians to do their bidding — thereby making it LOOK like Christians are running things. The erstwhile libertarian rulers will be laughing up their sleeves all along, enjoying their perch at the top. Kind of like Putin on the one hand, and Mussoliini on the other. Neither cared a fig for the principles they espoused, as long as they could use rhetoric to keep themselves in power. I’m kind of dark in my visions that way.
All of those things — Barry Goldwater (!) — were so long ago. They were fossilized by the time the Tea Party emerged. Think about who these people were and what they are doing now. Anyone who supported Barry Goldwater was in a nursing home. Anyone who voted for Reagan was on their way out too. The Tea Party people were still mouthing the platitudes of the Republican Party but their attitude was different. They wanted to stir things up, and create a populist movement. They were fixated on the negative aspects of the old platitudes — politicians annd bureaucrats are bad and out to get you — not the positive aspects about entrepreneurs or whatever. The Tea Party was mailing tea bags to people, they were cheeky. The people who were mailing the tea bags are now volunteering for Trump, and they probably don’t even know who Barry Goldwater was.
Trump's cult and the corporate media have destroyed the idea of populism.
Like all things there are functional and dysfunctional, good and bad versions.
There is left wing populism and right wing populism.
Left wing populism is the populism of Bernie Sanders, it is social justice, equality, DEI.
Right wing populism is fascist, authoritarian.
The only examples we see, historical and at present are right wing populism.
Huey Long and William Jennings Bryan were right wing populism, though they did take elements of left wing populism, like not being crucified on a cross of gold (the bullshit gold standard,it worked so well in the USSR /s)
I think you are right about a libertarian bent in the Republican Party, and perhaps even the Tea Party {they use the rhetoric, anyway}. But Trump’s base places a strong sense of “justification” for his immorality on their belief that he is an agent of their god. We may eventually see a clash between the Right and the Libertarians on that score …
LOL, well, when you look at how poorly designed and prone to breaking down the human body is, well, yeah, “God” sending Trump is just more of the same.
I would say "personal beliefs". I understand the "justices" THINK their decision is rooted in Scripture, but that doesn't mean that it is. The Bible says nothing about frozen embryos nor IVF; it does have PLENTY to say about "love your neighbor as yourself".
If you don't understand how Alabama can be this way, you have never been there. They still run around with confederate battle flags on their pickup trucks. Does that tell you something?
Nigel, I imagine you would want to know that Veteran’s For Peace, along with several co-sponsors and endorsers, has organized a 700-mile walk, from Augusta, Maine to Washington, DC April 27th-July 6th, for Peace and Planet, Justice and Democracy. Among the 13 reasons listed for walking, numbers #1 and #2 are “for an end to war, especially the looming threat of nuclear war” and “for the children, that they may grow up without the worry of nuclear Armageddon or the climate crisis.”
Ultimately, the walkers are walking for people, peace and life on this beautiful planet we all cherish.
Thanks for that Barbara I know your country is full of good people it’s just gets a bit depressing reading some of the blogs which often paint such a gloomy picture
Paula, While I don’t have a ready solution, I won’t abandon the urgent humanitarian imperative to amplify the catastrophic humanitarian consequences of nuclear weapons.
Guns, God, state control of women's bodies, book banning, religious immigration discrimination, LGBT persecution. Unregulated corporate capitalism, unaffordable health care, unaffordable higher education, enormous wealth disparity and inequality, soaring addiction and opiate mortality, militarized police, racial profiling. It doesn't have to be this way. We could actually solve many of these problems if we took corporate money out of campaign finance. But it's the money of the Mellons and the Mercers and the Kochs and their ilk that is turning the once most envied society of the world into a shithole country. And it is a personality cult of white Christian Confederate retrogrades driving the destruction.
1st few sentences read like a very powerful ad!! As if we need any more reasons to vote blue up & down the ticket @ every level of government. Great copy!
Good comments, Robert. Let's add two points briefly.
One, the sentence "All of these private freedoms are under increasing assault from Republican legislators and judges who want to impose their own morality on everyone else." It is pretty obvious that both the corporate-republican politicians and the fake evangelists both have no morality. They are all about stealing the money while leading the simple people (Proverbs 1) to their doom. The simple people need guidance, but they are being simply brainwashed to do wrong.
The other point is about the religious tropes that came across the Atlantic with the early settlers. Essentially, the future USA was a White Anglo-Saxon Protestant set of cultures. Not only that, but the vast majority were extremists ("Dissenters") who fought a bloody civil war under Oliver Cromwell in the 1600s... when their enemies, the Parliamentarians (Anglican) won, the Dissenters (Puritans, etc) were driven out (some to Netherlands, and expelled there) and fled to the Colonies. Can't go into the whole history here, but let's realize that those fundamentals are still deeply rooted. The wealthy plantation owners created their own religions ("Southern - "; example: Southern Baptists 1845) when they realized that slavery was going to be forbidden. In other words, simply put, the roots of today's "'evangelists" flying around in $60 million luxury jets and ordering cases of expensive French wine at their beach resorts (I saw it with my own eyes in San Diego) have their airconditioned doghouses (Jim & Tammie Fay Baker) while the Simple People eat dog food and donate their last dollar... I'll close there for now. Point is: today's dirtiness has long, deep roots. Can we overcome the past and present to recreate the future that our Founders & Framers envisioned nearly a quarter millennium ago?
Frozen embryos, bah hum bug. Freeze the little guys before they are considered embryos. It's a simple fact, a newly fertilized egg is a Zygote not an embryo. Freeze the zygotes prior to the point when the embryonic stage begins, and Alabama can go suck eggs. As for the church entering into our political lives, no thank you. Some dweeb from that Southern state mentioned the word "God" while explaining his position, and by doing so he just jumped into the back seat with Boebert. If you are in politics and you feel the need to bring God into the conversation you don't understand this country or what the founding fathers were trying to build way back then.
Thank you, Donald for bringing this fact up, zygotes are indistinguishable cells rapidly dividing. Even an embryo would be difficult to recognize as a future Homo sapiens. It isn't until the fetal stage that you can barely make out the Homo sapiens formation. And these critters aren't viable (that is capable of living independently outside the uterus) until well into the third trimester of gestation. We aren't kittens.
LOL!! D, of course, all of the above. One thing in favor of the fetus it is usually there with the consent of both parents, which cannot be said of tapeworms, bacteria, or viruses. Even the helpful ones like Escherechia coli. are not there by invitation.
Additional truth to your statement is that the Anglican Church of England usurped the religious authority of the Pope - sort of the English Pope. That was some of the oppression that our founders were escaping.
Gordon. The guys who signed the Declaration of Independence were a mixed lot, some where deists (a euphemism for agnostic or atheist) some were actually Anglicans, especially those in New England, like John Adams.
Ben Franklin fled Boston for Philadelphia, because Massachusetts was a stern theocracy.
The Puritans, in particular the "Pilgrims" or Brownists, brought with them the sternest of religious ideologies, which have subsequently spread through this nation like a cancer and are on the verge of taking over our government.
The ideology of the Puritans is worse than that of the "English Pope".. the King/Queen
You are close, Gordon, but it was not the Church of England that usurped the pope, it was Henry the VIII. When his subjects grew annoyed with him for beheading his wives and the Catholic Church in Rome refused top allow and annulment he formed his own church (the Church of England later called Anglican) with himself proclaimed as head of the Church. Now he could divorce his wife as he tired of her, or she only produced daughters. By this time he had already contracted syphillis so the only son he ever produced died as a child leaving his daughter Elizabeth the 1st, a far superior monarch than her correctly maligned parent.
A few Catholics came to the United States colonies to escape the oppression to the Catholic Church. Most remained to fight another day.
Scientifically speaking, yes. Apparently there ignorant interpreters of laws think the Constitution specifies separation between Science and State, instead of separation between Church and State.
My Pilgrim and Puritan ancestors settled in New England in the 1620s and 1630s, BEFORE the time of Cromwell and his ilk. And then immigration to New England all but stopped.
The Cromwellian republic fell apart in 1660, and it did not precipitate a wave of emigration. However, the restored King Charles II did bring about the new proprietary colonies of Pennsylvania, New Jersey, and New York.
Thanks, but... New Haven was founded in 1638. Yes, the stage was long set for more Puritans to arrive. The Puritans in Hartford, who probably dated to the time of your ancestors, were not severe or "Gothic" enough so the most extreme set off down the Connecticut River mouth and founded what is now New Haven. From my reading years ago, a bunch of Dissenters from Cromwell's era fled to the Netherlands, but were expelled, and fled to the Colonies. This whole history is not a simple timeline but a blend of various tropes. Your comment does flesh out the history some more. Thank you.
Yes, a group of Cromwellian Dissenters, including perhaps three persecuted regicides (parliamentarians who voted the death penalty for King Charles I), found their way to what is now Connecticut.
There were essentially two migrations to what was then called Virginia (which included the eastern seaboard form Roanoke to Maine)
The first was 1607 through 1653 to the James River community. the first were adventurers of purse, some freemen and mostly indentured servants.
The second was to Massachusetts Bay in 1620, and they stopped their only to replenish their beer, as they were head south to what was New Amsterdam.
With the victory of Cromwell, the royalists fled to Virginia and were welcomed by Gov Wm Berkeley, as peers to help him administer the colony.
With the restoration of Charles II, the Parliamentarians, from the North and East of England fled to Massachusetts
The South was populated by the scions of landed gentry and lesser nobility and in 1653 by royalists. They came from London and counties surrounding London, mostly Surrey, bringing with them their speechways and customs.
New England was populated by parliamentarians and puritans from the North and East of England bringing with them their speech ways and customs.
In a ironic sense, the American civil war was actually a four year battle, and the last battle of the English Civil war, because at root were conflict between two forms of rule or living.
John T Cullen, the dissenters that fled to Leiden Holland, were the Brownists, and decades before Cromwell, they chartered the Mayflower, stopped at Plyhmohth picked up 70 Puritans who were not radical religious extremists but people who want to reform the Anglican church
With the victory of the round heads (Parliamentarians) the cavaliers (royalists) fled to Virginia and became the ruling class, supplanting the original ruling class of planters and freemen that migrated between 1607 and 1653.
John, I would accept the morality of the religious biggots.
Problem is why The Dutch, with their fanatic Dissenters became leading in modernity and the U.S. citizens moved moally back to the Midlle Ages. That is, I don't understand that. See my first comment.
I was replying but my text vanished. I was trying to make sure of my facts and did a quick lookup on Wikipedia. Good question, one I have also thought about. back to you soon if I can. JTC
Found my text. Here is my best shot at answering, with all respect. Good question, Thomas. I've wondered the same myself. Look at the ultra-progressive NL of today, versus years ago. We have to look past the bland propaganda of religious extremists and we'll see the geo-political engine behind it all. When the Low Countries shook off Spanish (Catholic) imperial rule, the area was embroiled in the religious wars of the Protestant Reformation. Consider the fact that Cromwell's reign of error & terror came to an end in the (what? 1660s?) followed by the last Catholic king of England, James II. His father, James I, had been beheaded by the Parliamentarians in 1648. Then in 1688 was the so-called Glorious Revolution when the English Parliamentarians joined forces with the NL king and sent a new king & queen (William and Mary of Orange). That's the Orange that the English settlers in Northern Ireland are marching about every year through Catholic neighborhoods (not much longer, from the looks of it). When William and Mary became King and Queen, they joined forces with the English Royalists (Anglican, Parliamentarian) versus the remaining Dissenters, clan chiefs, etc. Note the Low and High versions of the Anglican Church... a compromise apparently reached in that age... a High Church service much resembles a Catholic Mass, whereas the Low Churches (mainly in the north toward Scotland) tend to have no stained glass, no statues, etc and look much like Calvinist churches. Back to NL: Having overthrown Spanish empire, and now joining in a new Protestant alliance, it seems clear that the Netherlands King would not tolerate anarchism... so the Dissenters (anarchists, but more to the point clan-driven like in Scotland) fled to the Colonies. Note that the Province of New England was originally founded by the restored English king, with a Governor personally responsible to him, to try and keep the Puritans/Calvinists/Dissenters/Anarchists in check. I came of age in New Haven, CT one of the most severe Dissenter cities in North America. Three of the major avenues downtown (Whalley, Goffe, and Dixwell) were named after three of the more than fifty "judges" who ordered King James I beheaded...Another example of this extremism: teaching, reading, or studying French was forbidden in New Haven until the 1800s or so because the Dissenters (see American Gothic painting: Dour faces, gray clothing, pitchfork, etc) believed it fostered immorality ("French"). The colonies harbored this history into the 1700s, and it is no surprise that they (especially the Simple People) were ready to grab their pitchforks and overthrow King George in 1776. That in turn should give us some clue about why the NL stayed on a more easy path... That is my reading of the whole thing, reduced to a few lines. JTC
I thought about why they restored the monarchy once they were rid of it, and concluded they needed a figure for the people to blame for the way they governed instead of blaming them.
In England they call it "posh." In the Gilded Age, US billionaires had money and power... while a lot of old English aristocrats had lost their wealth and were struggling (not all, but some). So picture yourself, with a lot of money & power... you'll want to have a fancy flag, and wear that crown (looks like a flowerpot) on your head... sounds like fun. If you can afford it. I can't.
Nice story John; with my knowledge it is in essence correct.
But the Glorious Revolution seems not enough to explain the difference in development between the US and NL.
In my lifetime I have seen and experienced World War 2, told to me by my parents, the distancing of their religions in the reconstruction period. My grandparents were catholics, the remaing grandma on mothers side was protestant.
In the sixties the influence of religion was shrinking, woman emancipation was fast, provo undermined traditional politics, the TV brought us satire and laughter.
Now we see a terrible change to the right and a fanatical politics and hardening in style.
I compare that with Trumpism.
But religious bigotry is still not visible, nor retrograde moral legislation. I don't know why not. When pressed, I would say, satire and laughter makes you stronger and milder.
Thanks, Tom. I'm Irish Catholic on my father's side, and Luxembourgeois on my mother's side. I have dual U.S./Luxembourg (and EU) citizenship these days. Complex story... US Army brat, born in the 385th US Army Station Hospital (gone now; former Wehrmacht hospital). We were stationed in West Germany, France, and Luxembourg when I was a child. Came to New Haven, CT at age 10. There is a lot more history, but my perspective is that the Low Countries (Belgium, NL, Lux) represent a whirlpool of political/religious change throughout history... however far you want to go; Celtic times, Roman times, Germanic...Charlemagne...during the Reformation. I can see that in Luxembourg history, going back to Lotharingia (one of three divisions of Charlemagne's empire in the 800s). My point (yes there is one) is that nothing is simple in this glaring mess. Some of the royal houses in the 1600s or so remained Catholic while others went Protestant. Example of the whirlpool as follows: I was stationed (US Army soldier) five years in Rhineland-Palatinate not far from Luxembourg. One would think that this is prime Luther territory BUT the whole region was owned by the Wittelsbach kings (Mad Ludwig included; the most Catholic part of Germania) of Bavaria until early 1900s in part. Example: one of our Kasernes or Barracks (Kleber) in Kaiserslautern was built in the 1700s and has a Baroque look (see Wikipedia). Oddly, for whatever reason, the French and later US Army referred to it as Kleber Kaserne, while the German bus line showed "23rd Kaserne" up front as the destination; that happened to be a unit of Bavarian hussars who occupied the barracks in the 1700s-1800s. That's just an example of how utterly mixed up the mish-mash is in Europe. Back to our point about NL vs US now...the movement of Calvinists out of UK into Northern Ireland and USA in my opinion mirrors the spectrum from London (Anglican at the time) over to Calvinist (Scotland, New England Province). A very different, separate dynamic in the Low Countries, where you have Catholic Luxembourg vs Protestant Netherlands but filtered in you have Belgium (Vlamsk and Limburg in the north... and French speaking Wallonia in the south). All the deck chairs kept being rearranged through the Early Modern to Modern centuries... so the Protestant/Catholic dynamic had its own focus in the Low Countries, totally divorced from the dynamics of the UK and its empire. We in the USA divorced ourselves from European monarchy, except during the Gilded Age after the US Civil War, when the industrial North sort of hooked back up with the English... the Industrial Revolution began to blossom in New England during the 1830s, probably, and grew powerful in the Civil War. The South was essentially occupied, with so many of our major US military installations located across the South (sometimes with Confederate names, which is now changing also). It's been estimated that something like 1000 US wealthy heiresses were traded off to English aristocracy in the late 1800s, sort of an exchange of US money for English titles. Consider: Winston Churchill's mother was Jenny Jerome, a billionaire daughter from New York City. They all had a big club going in England, with the likes of Consuelo Vanderbilt and... well, Princess Diana's Spencer clan had connections in the US I believe, and as another crazy example, Eleanor Roosevelt was a distant cousin of Jefferson Davis. Ultimately, to close this fun ramble, I'd say that history is more about money and power than about simplistic religious ideas. One last look under the covers of this grand whirlpool: When the Industrial Revolution really took off after the Civil War, all the Irish (and later Italian, Polish, etc) laborers arriving on the Fall Line (Connecticut River) caused a lot of the old Puritan communities to fold up and move west... forming the underpinnings of today's Red States. Nothing ever stays the same, so maybe this will all continue evolving into more confusion. cheers/JTC
The Dutch were not fanatic dissenters. Those were the followers of Robert Browne, a radical puritan who broke away from the Anglican church.
The Dutch had recently freed themselves of the Spanish Catholic yoke, and were tolerant to a degree, welcoming the Calvinist and Huguenots, and other protestand sects, but were intolerant of the intolerant Brownists (Saints/Pilgirms)
Lee. maybe dissenters is not the proper word and creates misunderstanding. I meant the protestant migration, that went on for many years from Holland to America and beyond. I'm not a specialist in the history of religion in the middle ages, bu still have the hunch that the protestant radicals emigrated and created a milder sphere of tolerance.
I'm curious whether you believe satire and mockery can contribute to this mildness as well? When I see CPAC defending Trump's attack on democratic values, you need a lot of that.
Tom, I son'r know about the puritan radicals, AKA Brownists creating a milder sphere of tolerance. They were pretty damn intolerant, the fore fathers of Mike Johnson and Christian Nationalist. They didn't mellow in Massachussets, on the contrary were unrestrained. the Salem Witch Trials are the most prominent example.
The Church of England in it's forms as Anglican and Episcopal, is pretty damn mild compared to the Puritan interpretation.And the Brownist version of Puritanism has infected the disUnited States, and is the base of the MAGAt movement.
God I hope so John. This entire “musical” being played out by so called “religious” human animals makes me want to run in the opposite direction FAST! They are a desperate scab of infestation of sick fantasy.
I am so sad at how we demean God! Every creepy action by the maggot group is blamed on God. How dare they…..
I agree, Jean (Muriel). I have only one central belief: Matthew 7:12, a direct quote from Leviticus 19:18... the Golden Rule. It is the only aspect of religiosity that can be shown as having cause/effect proof. The rest is science fiction... the simple people do need it for guidance so they will enact the Golden Rule. That is with good leadership. With bad leadership (the korporate republikans in the USA, and other extremists around the world) we quickly descend into death & chaos. The Golden Rule is the entire "Law and the Prophets."
John T Cullen. I agree with the gist of your comment, but not the particulars.
You are correct in as much as a sect of extremeist Puritans known as Brownists, for their intellecual leaders, fled to Leiden Holland, they wanted to completely separate from the Church of England.
The Dutch soon got tired of their extremism and forced them out, so they chartered a fluyt, but they numbered only 32, not enough to defray the expense, so they recruited Puritans who boarded the Mayflower at Plymouth, England.
The Brownists called themselves saints and were separatists. The puritans remained members of the church of England, there were four sects of Puritans and although they stayed in the church there goal was to reform it.
The Mayflower had 102 passengers, 70 of which were Anglican Puritans, the other 32 Brownist Separatists. The word Pligrim didn't enter our vocabulary until the diary of the Brownist leader, Bradford was discovered in the 19th Century.
These Brownists and Puritans arrived in the Massachussets Bay in 1620, they were followed by others and a mass migration from the north and east of England after the restoration of Charles II by other parliamentarians.
Over 20 years before the Puritans, A group of wealthy businessmen and lesser nobility, got together and petitioned King James for a charter to go into Virginia in search of gold and silver.
At that time the entire eastern seaboard from the Roanoke colony to Maine was called Virginia.
The name of this company was The Virginia Company of London, it sent out it's first ship of indentured servants and adventurers of purse (investors were call adventurers then), in 1607 and they settled in what they named Jamestown, a bit of dry land surrounded by marsh, and the rivers they named James and Elizabeth.
Virginia was not a colony at the time, but became one when the King revoked the charter in 1624.
Another group of adventurers had pooled their resources and petitioned the king for a charter to settle the northern part of Virginia, we now call New England.
This company was the Virginia Company of Plymouth, it came of naught, no interest. it was revived in 1620 with the landing of the puritans.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plymouth_Company
The Virginians and Carolinians, were not religious fanatics. The churches in Virginia were Anglican, until the revolution, then those that weren't disestablished renamed themselves Episcopal.
Religious fanaticism came to the South with the Great Awakenings I and II, I was in the late 18th Century, before the revolution, when Massachussets puritan preachers came south and proselytized the people, these were primarily Baptists. My fifth great grandfather became a convert to Baptist around 1766.
The second "Great Awakening" too place in the early 19th Century with revival tent shows.
A prominent revivalist was Lorenzo Dow,and that name shows up frequently in Southern families in that era as Lorenzo Dow Jones, or Lorenzo Dow Smith etc.
This is where Christian fanaticism starts, it's foundation is Brownist. followers of Robert Browne
I've read a bit about how Plymouth Colony came to be, and if I remember correctly, when John Robinson's Separatist congregation arrived in Holland, there was a Brownist congregation that they declined to join.
That Wikipedia link isn't well-sourced, and Wikipedia's article about John Robinson doesn't say anything about Brownism.
Maybe it's all academic, but I think the point is to think through the origins of present-day religious fundamentalism.
A little background. I was a wikipedia edior, anyone can edit wikipedia, they had best be intimiately familiar with policy and guidelines and use reliable secondary sources.
Most editors have articles on their watch list, if anyone edits an article on your watch list, you are notified. And people who have articles on their watch list have an emotional involvement with that article. if you edit it , even with reliable secondary resources, and they don't like it, they will revert it,and if you revert the revert, you wind up in a revert war, and possibly get referred to a review committed (there are quite a few, all staffed by volunteer editors).
There are cliques in wikipedia, long time editors, that even attend conferences,hobnob, party and date each other., you might be battling a clique, or someone who is a favorite.
My point here is that I tried to edit articles about the Pilgrims,the Brownists, etc and ran into a descendant of a "pilgrim" who had a very vested interest in protecting his version of the myth.
One of which is that the Mayflower agreement (covenant i n their lexicon) was the foundation for our Constitution. Whereas the first instance of self governance was the House of Burgess, when it was an organ of the joint stock venture, the Virginia Company of London, and was formalized as such by the third charter of 1619, a year before the "pilgrims" landed.
I don't know who John Robinson is, never heard of him, but the Brownists, the cult of Robert Brown(e) is easily researched. There are articles and info all over the net.
If a wikipedia articles not well sourced, it will be challenged, there are always people viewing new articles and even new edits.
That and there is often a Header inside a rectangle stating that the article needs more sources.
Wiki is useful, but if the article is highly charged with mythos, religion, ideology or is political it becomes a mess.
I tried to edit in to Ronald Reagan's article his treason with the Ayatollah Khomeini and it was reverted, the excuse given was that it was controversial and not proven, my source was an interview with the christian Monitor and Ayatollah Bani al Sadr.
I tried the same with Nixon, and again it was reverted with some lame ass excuse.
And if you dare call them out, you will be banned, unless you fall on your knees, prostrate yourself and promise to sin no more.
BTW I started about 10 articles, my son (now 63) is still at it, I'm too old and tired to be bothered. He is a college professor and does it to kill time.
And oh, you can start and edit an article, but nobody owns it. It is all public domain.
Guys...John Schmeekle and Lee Markland et al... it's so funny. I tried my hand at Wikipedia editing also, and gave up. I've been through the edit wars, believe me. I love Wikipedia and make a small monthly donation. I use it all the time. And another kicker: as much as I loathe Reagan and the Reaganists, there is one thing Reagan said that I always quote when thinking of Wikipedia: "Trust but verify." That is my Wikipedia mantra. Probably the only smart thing Reagan (of Calvinist background) ever said (or was he quoting someone smarter than himself?) Wikipedia is a good, quick lookup, and usually on track; has a lot of great info; but academics would not dare quote it in an academic paper. I love history, and am a life-long writer/editor... but i consider myself more of a journalist on the nonfiction side, not an academic writer.
i actually got bored. I achieved my goals, I started 10 articles,and edited more, but I am not an English major, nor a grammarian, and couldn't find any articles that would interest me, I did try an edit or two in Colonization of Mars. (Impossible, man can never colonize as the gravity it too weak, to hold light gases (hydrogen, oxygen, nitrogen to it's surface). they once were, but were spun off into space, by the centrifugal force of the planet, except at the poles, where there is no such force.
The established order is trying to come up with all manner of reasons, Mars lost it's atmosphere, except the most obvious, gravity is not a product of mass, but a current force, produced by a current process and when that process diminishes (cools down) the electro magnetic gravitic force is weakened, and a diminished gravity, can not hold light gases to the surface.
Gravity acts by pulling everything to it's surface, and light gaseous molecules pile up and create atmospheric pressure. Decrease gravity and the light gases dissipate, and liquids "boil" off, That's why pilots and astronauts wear pressure suits, until they are in pressure enhanced enclosures like the ISS
The only problem is that gravity as a current force, flies in the face of Newtonians 1st law, and realizing that has a domino effect. I am sure that NASA knew that, which is why they sent so many exploratory vehicles to the moon, to determine the neutral point and lunar gravity.
I've sone some back of the envelope calculations based on NASA revelations and the performance of astronauts and the moon rover and it turns out the gravity of the moon is .64ge not .16666666 ge. The recent privately launched lander that landed on the south pole, had a rough landing, rougher than expected if it was .1666ge,
There is more, but my exposition convinced a few, but finally they were chastised and I was reverted
Finally I got into it on an article with culture war significance and i called and editor for what she was, and refused to apologize so I was banned. No matter I was bored anyway, and time to move on, I had accomplished all that I had wished to accomplish, and there is no way I can change the world or peoples minds.
I have some experience as a Wikipedia editor on controversial subjects, but rarely there these days. Peripheral articles like the one on Brownism get neglected.
John Robinson was the pastor of a Separatist congregation in Leiden, before a good-sized minority of his congregation got on the Mayflower and went to America. If Robinson was not a Brownist, then the Mayflower Pilgrims were not Brownists.
Loosely, they were all Calvinists, as well as the Dutch, and the Scottish Presbyterians, too.
The 32 that boarded the Mayflower in Leiden were Brownists, but the cost of hire for the ship was too high, so they sailed to Plymouth and picked up 70 Puritans who weren't Brownists.
That 32 of the 72 were Brownists comes from the Diary of William Bradford, the leader of the English Puritan Separatists (Brownists) the other 72 Puritans were not Separatists but members of the Church of England (Anglican in America) who didn't want to separate but to reform the church.
Yes, I descend from both groups, but the Separatist members of John Robinson's congregation weren't Brownists, and William Bradford never said they were.
Many of the members of John Robinson's congregation in Leiden lived in a "group home" owned by widow Marie de Lannoy (Delano), whose daughter married John Carver (who would be chosen governor) and whose son Philip was on the Speedwell, the leaky ship that initially accompanied the Mayflower. (He joined the Plymouth settlers the following year.) My grandmother's fourth cousin Franklin Delano Roosevelt and I also descend from Richard Warren, one of the London "Merchant Adventurers" financing the trip who sailed on the Mayflower and became one of Plymouth Colony's early leaders.
You may already know that the Calvinist theology of the Puritans and the various Separatist groups (including Brownists) was basically the same.
John, the Puritans were extremists. That’s why they had to leave Europe. Then in this country things got even crazier when the Great Awakening materialized. The history of religion in this country is one of extremism and lunacy.
I agree... glad we kicked off this discussion. In the broader sense, we must all remind ourselves that there are good and bad people in every persuasion. Much as I rail against Puritanism, Calvinism, etc... from my travels in the world, working & living across two continents over many years, I have encountered what we might call village idiocy in every area... Europe, North America, you name it. But my fundamental belief is that *people everywhere are the same... good ones, bad ones, and mostly okay ones.* That is my mantra. When I get frustrated with village religion, I always counter myself by thinking of the 1943 Norman Rockwell painting Freedom Of Speech (find it on, yes, Wikipedia for quick lookup)... my point is that much as we can picture the (dark humor) dour couple with the pitchfork... Grant Wood's 1930 painting is a dark parody... he used as models his sister and the family dentist, pretending to be the archetypal dark religionists... We can chuckle at that, but then I swing back to the heroic image of the plain, simple man (Freedom of Speech) standing up in a small town council and freely giving his speech among the posh and well-dressed (money people). A quick point about Puritan villages: many were tyrannies, and in a few, some women were executed for witchcraft. The key at the bottom of it all, which the Romans employed in the world's longest surviving democracy (about 509 to about 31 BCE, with a lot of rough edges) is balance and moderation. For example, every public office was occupied by two officials including magistrates from Consul on down; each could veto the other's decisions. The fatal exception was the office of Dictator, usurped by the likes of Sulla and Julius Caesar in the late republic with fatal consequences. That's why we have checks and balances so that no single viewpoint or even nut-case can seize the day (like Putin's errand boy Trum appears to be doing today).
Embryos aren’t “babies,” they are PROPERTY, plain and simple.
The Alabama high court ruling, along with Nikki Haley’s pandering to the most ignorant and sanctimonious segment of the Republican base, sets up a showdown between that one-issue faction and traditional economic conservatives and business, whose first and only real priority is protection of private property laws, which they view as the very foundation of a capitalist society: if people can’t assert ownership of the very fruits of their own bodies, then what private property can ever be safe from government seizure?
The Republican party simply cannot survive as nothing but the Christian nationlist anti-"woke" party; ludicrously inept as their actual record is, their claimed wise stewardship of the economy is what their philosophical legitimacy has always rested upon.
Just one more wedge being driven into the Republican party by political hacks so inflexible that they’d rather be sucked under by a maelstrom of their own making than reach a sensible accommodation that would be embraced by a majority of voters. The minority party marginalizes itself yet again.
One should remember, if reading biblical text, that prophets always stood in opposition to the state, and that included the state "church", the priesthood. Jeremiah, and most other prophets often condemned the state, and its supporting religious institutions, for failure to treat the poor with justice, for enslaving immigrants, for killing their detractors, and for worshipping false gods that allowed the concentration of wealth. Jesus spent his time condemning the state, declaring a separation, "Give to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and give to God the things that are God's", and telling followers to care for the poor, heal the sick, open your hearts to the disabled and abused, and love your neighbor as yourself. I see zero of this in the Alabama decision, in our border policy, in the abortion restrictions, in our treatment of labor (children working in fast food or animal processing facilities), or in our unthinking support for the Israeli government's bombing of women and children in Gaza. What the Republicans want is to put the Pharisees in charge of the government's social policies. Sounds like an anti-prophetic stand to me.
Yeah, that’s what it’s all about for these people. How are Christians being threatened? Is anyone trying to stop them from being spiritual in their own way? Is anyone forcing them to get an abortion? Is anyone forcing them to read a book that they don’t like? They have freedom of choice. They want to take freedom of choice from non Christians. Vote for democrats!!!
The analogy breaks down in the limit, unfortunately: "if you don't believe in rape, don't get victimized" only goes so far (abortion may not be a matter of choice so much as clinical necessity - which is why arguing with someone who would have broadly granted rights taken away is so difficult, i.e. they're all too happy to gloss over the edge cases).
“According to a new survey from the Public Religion Research Institute and the Brookings Institution, more than half of Republicans believe the country should be a strictly Christian nation — either adhering to the ideals of Christian nationalism (21 percent) or sympathizing with those views (33 percent).”
On the bright side, the Republican Party has been shrinking over the last two decades and is now the third largest party behind Democrats, with independents as the largest party.
Interesting enough, Parker, the Chief Justice of Alabama is an adherent to New Apostolic Reformation (Seven Mountains Mandate). These people believe, like Johnson, that only God can be in charge of government. And that’s the least worrisome of their master plan.
Parker is also a believer in Christian Qanon Apocrypha, whose evangelical leader, Enlow (Christian influencer), believes he receives prophecies directly from god.
When the religious fanatics said that abortion is murder and a sin against god; it’s only the beginning.
IVF today, women’s contraceptives tomorrow, and it’s a slippery slope to The Handmaid’s Tale.
Oh, and Parker and all the rest of these apocrypha evangelicals are BIGLY supporters of Trump!
This idea they call god has no voice, no substance, no one has had a communication with it ever, but the number of Charlatans, including the Pope, use this idea called god as a sock puppet, so when Parker and Johnson declare that god should run the government, they mean they should run the government, because they use god as a sock puppet.
I’ve been a registered independent for 49 years, and have voted for Democrats up and down the ballot, across every election since. I’m also an advocate of Groucho’s maxim, “I refuse to join any club that would have me.”
Not so sneaky. They announce what they find to all their friends. It’s very much out in the open. I’ve heard housewives say they do this to figure out “who to hate”. I don’t see any advantage to registering with a political party, only danger.
People declare that they're independents to mask their true ideological affiliation. Or maybe to be able to vote for weak candidates in the party they dislike: political sabotage.
True! Some do, especially if they work in government and serve both administrations.
Although, I believe many leave because they no longer feel the party serves their interests. Both parties struggle, but let’s face it, republicans have definitely jumped into the abyss.
These religious fanatics are reckless, ruthless and completely in need of a Prozac the size of Texas….:)
... but many who intend to register as 'Independent' do, in fact register for a party i.e. the 'American Independent Party' (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Independent_Party); don't call it 'irony' if it's by design...
Just like they have their own interpretation of the Constitution which changes depending upon the situation, they have their own interpretation of the Bible.
As a human sometimes capable of critical thinking, I'm appalled that people still believe in invisible sky fairies & demons, & teach their kids that the tooth fairy, the Easter Bunny, & Santa Claus are real.
As a Christian minister, I am appalled that anyone in this country is trying to force Christianity and supposed "christian" principles on the people of this country. Each time I hear who is whining that this nation isn't Christian enough, I must groan because those people do not in any way embody what I would consider Christian principles. They lie, approve cheating if it gets them what they want while trying to claim it isn't cheating, and choose leaders who either have questionable backgrounds (Jordan, Gates, Greene, Trump, the judges in Alabama who want to push the 10 Commandments while they choose not to live by them), or spew hate of everyone who is not them. They want the government up in everyone's business but theirs. They have shaped Christianity to reflect their own personal biases, behaviors, likes and dislikes, fears, and hatreds. Lying has become their coin of the realm and they do it so often there is no sense of what is true when it comes to them. They may not even know themselves. There is nothing in Jesus's teachings that supports their attitudes, behavior, lying, faith being forced on others, and the rest of their Republican hypocrisy. If Jesus had been so opposed to homosexuality, for example, he would have said so since it was a regular part of life for people in the Roman Empire, of which Jesus was part. The same can be said of abortion. What I have noticed over the years, conservatives grab onto an issue they feel will get them attention, then wield it as a weapon to get others to give them power, money, or something else they want. We all should know that by now, but these fools keep popping up, claiming to be soooo Christian, coming up with "ideas" to make this a more Christian country. We the People need to stand against all their efforts with both feet planted in our democracy and our Constitution. The media needs to wake up and start calling out the Republicans for who they are: anti-American, anti-democracy, pseudo-christians. They do not care about any honest form of Christianity because Christianity has become their weapon of choice to gain undeserved power so they can make as much money as possible, continue to live their corrupt lives, and to do as much harm to anyone who does not go along with their BS as they can. We don't have to take that crap anymore and need to stand up to it. I get it that our Supreme Court has drunk the Republican Kool-Ade, so we may have to go around them, as Gov. Abbott has, only this time, to defend our rights and liberties from people for whom the Constitution is just a suggestion.
Everyone, keep your focus on November. We must win this election to stop the extreme Right and Christian Nationalists from being elected to any office. Their extremism borders on insanity.
They keep saying Man is made in God's image…….why does their god so often reflect their beliefs….the nature of god seems to change according to the band of followers talking.
You know, I have a sneaky suspicion the God is made in Man's Image!!
Bible is best read by reverses, got that from a rebbe. Man created god in his own image, not vice versa. Sumerians and Assyrians worshiped a wise fish god
This is why the Abrahamic religions refer to their god as a he. Does their god have male genitalia, is so for what purpose, to urinate and fornicate (fornicate with who).
If this god made man in his own image, then what does it eat, when does it sleep, and what does it defecate and urinate.
Questions we are not suppose to ask. Didn't this Jesus say come unto me as a child? That is credulous, guilible and ready to believe anything spoken by authority.
Theocracy is tryrany justified and rationalized in sick minds by religious teachings that espouse hierarchy of human beings and a violent, vindictive, controlling, not loving, abusive God.
"You can use Religion in service of the truth or in service of the ego." They are using religion in service of their very violent egos who crave controlling, exploiting, harming, and feeling superior to others.
Even if Biden win in November these people will not fade away. You are stuck with them and will have to cope somehow. And we were worried about Islamic Fundamentalism. . .
Do not render unto Caesar?
White nationalists, Christian nationalists, are allied with dominion theology, also known as dominionism, a group of Christian political ideologies that seek to institute a nation governed by Christians and based on their understandings of biblical law. Extents of rule and ways of acquiring governing authority are varied.
Currently, Justices Thomas and Alito admit that they apply "natural law" before they use the text of the Constitution. To them natural law is Catholic dogma.
In her Substack this morning, Heather Cox Richardson points out that it was the Confederacy, not the U.S. government, that sought to align the state with God. A nation was more than the “aggregation of individuals,” one Presbyterian minister preached, it was “a sort of person before God,” and the government must purge that nation of sins.
Confederates not only invoked “the favor and guidance of Almighty God” in their Constitution, they established as their motto “Deo vindice,” or “God will vindicate.”
The United States, in contrast, was recentering democracy during the war, and it rejected the alignment of the federal government with a religious vision. When reformers in the United States tried to change the preamble of the U.S. Constitution to read, “We, the people of the United States, humbly acknowledging Almighty God as the sources of all authority and power in civil government, the Lord Jesus Christ, as the Ruler among nations, and His revealed will as of supreme authority, in order to constitute a Christian government, and in order to form a more perfect union,” the House Committee on the Judiciary concluded that “the Constitution of the United States does not recognize a Supreme Being.”
Ironically, some of the sects comprising dominionism do not recognize Catholics as Christians. . https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Catholicism#:~:text=At%20various%20points%20after%20the,anti%2Dpapalism)%2C%20mockery%20of
Here's a primer on dominionism. https://www.christiancentury.org/article/features/quiet-rise-christian-dominionism
Josh Hawley, the prophet of dominionism is full of shit. He lies when he quotes Patrick Henry. “It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason, peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here.”
https://www.thenation.com/article/politics/josh-hawley-american-history-christian-nationalism/
Not just Josh Hawley, they are all full of shit. I was gently indoctrinated into a fairly liberal denomination of Christianity in my childhood. I feel I have a good understanding of the teachings of Jesus. These fundamentalist whackos are far from the tenets of Christianity. As an atheist I’m a good deal more “Christian” than they are.
They have a Constitutional right to believe but have a Constitutional prohibition from forcing those beliefs on the rest of us.
1. Even white supremacists need their SSA and Medicare.
2. Many religious sects support a division of church and state.
3. Within Christianity, the social gospel emphasizes it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich oligarch to make it to heaven.
4. The model should be Jimmy Carter -- not a-holes like Jerry Falwell.
The Baptists of yore were big on separation of church and state. When JFK was elected, some got upset that he was going to listen to the Pope rather than his conscience. But now, they're listening to a different voice, and I noticed that Rosalynn Carter's funeral was in an Atlanta Methodist Church. I believe the Carters' Baptist church is outside the Southern Baptist Convention, which has moved steadily to the right since the late seventies. A lot of it had to do with race and uppity women, not to mention people outside the heterosexual norms of old.
Having lived with my uncle a Southern Baptist Preacher, I can emphatically state that the Baptists of yore were big on separation of church and state. That was only a tactical position, in opposition of JFK because he was Catholic, they believed that a Catholic president would promote Catholicism, which was and is considered competition for suckers money.
"The Baptists..."---and still are, just not the Southern Baptists, who have morphed into a truly fundamentalist group. I would never again associate as SBC. The Cooperative Baptist Fellowship is the group where the sane Baptists went to--they still believe in the separation of church and state.
Theocracy/ideocracy. There must have been an evolutionary benefit for humanity to have evolved into people grouping together with a shared belief made up by opportunists to get followers who pay them.
Christian values and the values of the major religions have endured because the teachings are the truth and humans instinctively know that. But then we have the oligarchical opportunists who twist the truth to suit their greed and need for power over others.
How do humans evolve past this fault in human nature to follow the liars? How about public education and journalism not controlled by the unfettered capitalists?
Gloria there are no "truths" in any religion. Religion is ala carte, people take what fulfills their needs and assuages their fears and disregards the rest. Thomas Jefferson noted that and took scissors to the Bible. You can google and download The Jefferson Bible if curious.
This prince of peace also told his followers to bring those who would not have me reign over them and slay them. He also said "sell your cloaks and buy a sword" He also said, according to Paul, that women should be submissive, and if they wish to learn something, ask their husband.
By default I was an advocate for the Amish communities in the townships in Pa I represented. They object to practically all government, to the concept of "the commonwealth."
But think concentric circles. Like domiminumists, IMHO the binding force is rapture and the prospect of a better world. Their lifestyle is the path.
By contrast a lot of the religious groups that came her lived in differing forms of communism, socialism and paternalism. They see themselves as the "remnant," superior to the rest of us.
The Amish are still here. Those other groups, like the Shakers, are relegated to "the dust bin of history."
Totally agree - there’s always been the fall - in which Christian,Jews etc fall from their teachings and become corrupted to benefit themselves.
For sure, Gloria and Daniel.
Absolutely- these are not Christians- plus I feel God created this country to welcome ALL people - no matter your background or religion- that is why people are lined up waiting to get in - a land of the FREE
No god created this country. It was created by conquerors, not just “settlers”, on stolen land. Until we can face that and honestly grapple with it, we will be enabling the continued rise of fascism. Those tendencies are in part rooted in our history.
No god created this country or amything. men did.
It is a mistake attributing anything to a god or gods, because men use this thing called god, or Allah or Krshna or Oden as a sock puppet, to control other men.
They absolutely are Christians. They're acting the exact same way most Christians have been acting since Constantine adopted Christianity as the state religion of the Roman empire.
Being Christian doesn't prevent someone from being evil, and being evil doesn't negate someone's Christianity. Historically speaking, Christianity often made people worse. See: the Confederacy and the current Republican party.
No True Scotsman fallacy. Christianity is what Christians do with it, and today's evangelicals are acting the exact same way the vast majority of Christians have been acting since Constantine adopted Christianity as the state religion of the Roman empire.
Christianity is not inherently benign or benevolent. Insisting otherwise by claiming evangelicals are "fake" Christians or "far from the tenets of Christianity" just reinforces the underlying problem. It's also a huge middle finger to those of us who Christians have been trying to eradicate for the past several centuries.
"Christianity is what Christians do with it". That is an interesting concept that seems to deny that Religion comes from up on high.
And there seems to be some truth to this: In France, my mom and dad were excommunicated Catholics..
Excommunication normally extends to their descendants like myself. However, my local priest came to my house and insisted that I be raised in the Catholic faith. I saw nothing there but the desire to have me go to Church and especially, give alms. Churches have a vested interest in living off of the generosity of their flock. When they lose their flock, they change their "principles". I got out as soon as I could.
My niece is in a convent in France and in her opinion, these 'evangelists' are heretics in that they do not abide by the teachings of Jesus. I tend to agree with her.
"That is an interesting concept that seems to deny that Religion comes from up on high." I can say with absolute surety that christianity isn't from "on high". We can trace its history from its split from judaism, to its takeover of the Roman Empire, to the current day.
Your niece's opinion on the matter is both irrelevant and ridiculous. Jesus sure as shit hasn't stopped priests from raping kids, or from ordering genocides for that matter. Until christianity's god decides to get his ass down here and make an appearance the only thing we can base christainity's claims and validity on is its history. And I hate to break it to you, but christianity's history makes Game of Thrones look like Sesame Street.
Same Here David Deane. From my reply: "Evangelicals and other religious fanatics would be abhorred by Christ as they tend to ignore all his actual teachings. (I, like many Atheists have actually read the Gospels; Matthew, Mark, Luke & John)."
I was dunked under water at age 9, so officially was Southern Baptist (a terrorist org. - an uncle in MS was deacon of his Baptist church and also in the KKK.)
Christ would have been totally fine with them. He came not to bring peace, but a sword after all.
He also admits to lying in order to send people to hell in Matt 13:10 and refers to the woman by the well with a racial slur.
Jesus is just as hypocritical as the rest of the bible.
Well, Nobody's Perfect. :) The problem with this fairy tale is that authorship is unknown, inumerably handed by word of mouth until someone wrote it down. Unlike the Book of Marvel where Stan Lee handed down the moral conflicts & wins first person.
Remember that the gospels were written multiple generations after Jesus lived. He didn’t write them.
Might want to reread Matt 13:10.
Many of us are.
Me, too.
Please don't compare Christians to the Pharisees. It's an ancient antisemitic smear.
Did MAGA tell her to reject her Social Security and Medicare? Does she support stealing from kids with cancer and disabled war veterans?
Daniel, those are the kinds of questions I wish interviewers should be asking Trumpers and Trumpettes as well as the folks who want this to be a pseudo-christian nation. I'd love to hear the answers to questions about Social Security, Medicare, or questions related to the programs helping children that Republicans want to cut. I am wondering how many thinking people would agree that an embryo is a child. Somehow, our media just can't bring themselves to demand more of interviewees. Maybe our media is not really interested in truth or spreading the truth, just keeping the disinformation coming.
I have a MAGA husband. You have my condolences.
sorry to hear; must be hard to live with.
Only a fascist motherf****r would invent quotations from an American founding father to propagandize Christianity as inherent in the American nation state.
Yes - full of shit!!! MTGreene in particular has NO Christian values - I would say she would sell her soul to the devil himself to be part of Trump admin.
She's acting the exact same way the bulk of Christians have been acting since Constantine. Liberal/non-shitty Christians appearing in any significant numbers is a distinctly NEW thing, historically speaking. Being evil doesn't stop someone from being Christian and being Christian has never stopped anyone from being evil.
Yes: I think that it is a distinctly new thing *in this country*. In Europe, France specifically, many say they are Christians, but very few PRACTICE. [i.e: go to church, give alms to the poor, speak about the Bible all the time].
Yet I assure you, they do see themselves as Christians, with a very solid Socialist outlook, as opposed to MAGAs and they feel animated by the Spirit of Jesus [the socialist one]. It was God that came with a sword, and it is God that is vengeful, not Jesus or his mother Mary, in their opinion. They just feel that your faith is yours, not to be touched by government, either to be favored or ostracized. They do not speak of their faith all the time, because they realize that in France [also a very cosmopolitan country, a melting pot, like the US] discussing the Bible or the Coran or the Torah will only lead to divisions and bickering that cannot be fixed.
That is PRECISELY what is happening here. Many calling themselves Christian but barely knowing any Scripture, teachings of Christ, the Sermon in the Mount, etc.
It's not a new thing in this country. It's a new thing across the globe. Most of Europe's internecine wars were either started by or exacerbated by the church and its various factions. Hell, the phrase "kill them all and let god sort them out" comes from the Albigensian Crusade, which took place in france. And that's not even touching the Inquisition or the CENTURIES of persecution and genocide the Jews faced at christians' hands, all in the name of christ.
The socialist christians you're talking about are just as christian as american evangelicals. Thing is, american evangelicals are the poster children of christianity. They're the ones who are acting more in line with historical christianity than any socialist christians around.
Ack! What a horrible image.
Here is yet another source: https://www.sullivan-county.com/nf0/fundienazis/royal_race.htm
Dominionism is known as Christian Reconstruction, and it is ecumenical, there maybe be some protestant sects that eschew Catholicism, but the first encounter I had with one was in 1997 on the internet, he was Catholic and told me that I would bet mine, when they got power and restored order.
Dominionism was founded by R J Rushdoony and Ted Cruz's father Rafael, it makes the Taliban look liberal, it is a Christian version of ISIS.
They want Mosaic Law to replace the consitution.
Mosaic law is the 613 "there will be no or do nots" of Leviticus, except for those that they find inconvenient, like wearing clothes of mixed fabrics, or eating pork or shellfish.
They would execute less than faithful Christians, adulterers, gays, rebellious teens, and their preferred form of execution is stoning. Because (very libertarian) stones are free and it is a community involved event.
The official Dominionist organization is the Chalcedon Institute, of which Gary North, the Y2K conspiracy theorist was a founding member.
When I started posting links to the Royal Race of the Redeemed onto the net
https://www.sullivan-county.com/nf0/fundienazis/royal_race.htm
The Chalcedon Institute got in on the act and pays google to keep their site on top when doing a search for Royal Race of the Redeemed.
These people really do make the Taliban look liberal.
Thanks, Lee. It is interesting to read your sources. Today's Evangelicals in the MAGA vein, I call Christo fascists.
Regardless of the excuse, regardless of the dogma, religion is a bout one thing and one thing only. Control. Control of a tribe or population (Russia is a good example as the Russian orthodox church keeps the little Russki's in line), Islam is another, but not limited to national borders it is transnational, global.
Underpinning it all, that which sucks in the sheep, is patriarchalism, that man is the head of the family. Augustus Caesar (Octavian) edicted it with his Law of Pater Familia, in which the man had life and death control over his wife and children.
If you can't be King of the Domain, then at least the man can be King of his own little domain.
You are absolutely correct.
I highly recommend any of the books by Holly Pivec on the NAR (New Apostolic Reformation) movement, which adopts dominionism, among other Biblical heresies. That movement is represented by Bethel Church in Redding, CA. I also recommend Tim Alberta's "The Kingdom, the Power, and the Glory", which illustrates how far from Biblical teaching some of these so-called churches have become. As a follower of Christ brought up with years of reading and studying the teachings of the Gospels and the New Testament church, I can state that some of these churches have emphasized their own desires for political power at the expense of abandoning the teachings of Christ. While there are many practicing Christians who do seek to follow Christ's teachings, the "churches" preaching Christian Nationalism have been the fastest-growing.
NO ONE who takes the name of Christ and simultaneously stands for bigotry, hatred, exclusivity, negligence of the poor, and close-minded ignorance can be following Christ. Jesus said to "do unto the least of these...as you would do unto me", and "love your enemies".
Thanks for link. Important to have content and context as well as knowledge that Hawley is a a—hole.
Thank you for your comment and references. Very informative.
Oh yeah, another question. How can Trump be the second coming of Jesus? What does Scripture say about the actual transportation to be used in that second appearance? He's supposed to be born of a woman, again, and raised again? I honestly don't know. Asking.
Daniel, there is so much ignorance among Christian fundamentalists. They spend so much time picking and choosing random verses from the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament) to use to show that they with God at their side (or in their pocket) have the right to make this a "Christian" nation in their own image. The words of Jesus as reported in the gospels are pretty much irrelevant. In reality, it is white supremacy under a name Republicans think is more palatable. I guess it is since so many Republicans who would hate to be called racist or misogynists go along with Christian Nationalism because it sounds better. It does mean pretty much the same thing, though - rich white male supremacy. We all need to call it out wherever it is because it is destructive and backward. We the People are the majority. We don't need a bunch of scared white pseudo-christian men dictating life for us, even in the South.
As stated above, Christians pick and choose,copy and paste, the NT to fulfill their needs and assuage their fears. Thomas Jefferson took scissors to the NT and excised all of Paul, and more like the verses in Luke where the said kill those who will not have me reign over them, and sell your cloak and buy a sword.
Luke: 19:27 But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me.’”
As the old saying goes, "The Christian right is neither."
Thank you, Daniel. I was not aware of confederates wanting to establish the type of government that these republicans are wanting. That was an interesting read.
Peggy, yes, the Confederacy was not a program of freedom; it was about continuing slavery in all its forms and forcing Christianity, its own brand of course, on all its people. It seems we have not truly defeated the confederacy, just postponed their rise to prominance. It is time we find ways to defeat that insanity once and for all for the sake of our democracy. I always heard "the south shall rise again." My college friends in Tennessee who said it were joking, but it seems that instead of rising with positive ideas, new technologies, healthy happy people, they are rising with authoritarianism, anti-democratic ideas, the highest poverty and mother and infant death rates as well as a push to increase child labor, abuse of immigrants, and lies about global warming while their people suffer from the impacts of global warming. Amazing!!
You know what puzzles me, Ruth? America has and always will be a melting pot of different people, cultures, and religion. It is absurd to thing that these republicans are pushing for one religion! Seriously, all they need to do is look around our country! These different cultures and religions in many cases have blended together with others. No American citizen should ever be told they must practice one religion. That's ludicrous! Also, one of the reasons many left the Old World was to come here, to America, to get away from religious persecution and practice their faith their way. This ridiculous dream by republicans is just never going to happen.
Peggy, the problem is that these Christian Nationalists are only using religion as a mechanism to control others. I doubt most of them could say which are the elements they espouse most and where in scripture it comes from. Even when they have a scriptural reference, it is nearly always out of context. There are passages in the gospels that contradict the larger message. That bothered me until one of my professors mentioned that the scriptures had been copied and translated often which means it can happen that people put their own slant on a passage. The Roman Empire wanted Christianity to be a tool of its rule. It was an authoritarian system, so authoritarianism does come through in some of the early church writings, including the New Testament. Authoritarians who are into power-grabbing and money-grubbing can find verses here and there they can cite that OKs what they want to do to other people if twisted in just a certain way. Christians are supposed to love God and show that love by loving oneself and one's neighbors which includes everyone. That is the primary tenet. Lie, cheat, destroy everything you can for the money, take away rights, stand and watch people drown because "they don't belong here," give the rich whatever they want, steal if you don't get caught, claim you have immunity from committing crimes, none of these and the rest of Christian Nationalism can be honestly considered Christian. So, it seems Christians need to stand up and declare that in public, and often. We have been a diverse group of people living in what is now the United States from the beginning and anyone who claims the founders wanted this to be a "Christian" country is lying, pure and simple, and lying is now what Republicans do regularly to the point where they often don't think about what they are saying. Thinking for them is now dangerous since their lying colleagues will shun them or drive them out of office or both. Courage is not a Republican trait and has not been for decades, I am guessing since before Reagan. If We the People permit it, Republicans will corrupt our democracy beyond easy recovery even if we can get them out of office. We need to wake up and be sure we don't lose hope, something Republicans are HOPING will happen. Disgraceful!!
Well said, Ruth!! My sister always keeps reminding me the Bible was written by men and all of my writing professors use to tell me that even when you write using references, facts, and quotes you will always tend to put your own slant on it! Whether it be Yahway, Allah, God, Witr, or Adonai every religion has a supreme being they worship. To say that God should be the only one is telling whole religions that theirs does not count and they must believe in God. It is wrong and it does need to stop. We are not a Christian Nationalist country, we are a Democracy and in that Democracy we allow freedom of religion. That is why our forefathers sought to keep church and state separate.
It comes together and makes sense, though, doesn’t it, Peggy… Knowing the South used the Bible to justify holding slaves, it makes sense they’d seek to ensure that people hold the Bible in ultimate esteem, lest people — and the enslaved people themselves — recognize the monstrosity of slavery… Not that White Sputherners didn’t truly “believe” their own interpretations of the Bible, but foisting that on everyone else would have cemented their slavery interpretation for many more generations … Mmmm, yes, I didn’t know that part of their agenda was to establish a Christian nationalism, but it’s not really a surprise. That end-game of using religion and gods to ensure political control is as old as our species’ belief in gods
Good point, Pat. I know that 1. The bible was written by men interpreting God 2. The Old Testament was God's covenant with his chosen people, the Jewish people and the new testament was Jesus's covenant with us. 3. You cannot pick and choose verses in the Bible and then twist them to fit your own narrative. 4. The Bible is a guide to help Christians live a good, decent life. That being said, the South will never rise again because we simply will not let it!! Their ideas and beliefs were based on racism, white supremacy, and rich people being in control. There was a reason for including the part about separation of church and state and it should definitely stay that way. These republicans need to know that you can't strut to church on Sunday and talk about being a Christian when you act like the devil's kin the rest of the time!!
But Peggy, the south has risen again, that is what MAGA is all about. The ideology of the south never died it just went into hibernation, and awaiting their "great man" their avatar to rise up, and he did.
Actually I don’t think it ever did hibernate. I remember a poster I had in the sixties of a bunch of smug good old boy cops with the title “Support your local police.” Obviously it was ironic. I remember buying it at the Free Press Bookstore in Westwood Village. My point is that this southern racist culture has always been with us. What boggles my mind is that these people are still fighting the Civil War.
Biden is Catholic and clear that his personal views and beliefs have no place in governance. I think it’s a great example of someone who personally is not aligned with choice and refuses to take choice from others.
I only mention him because the two supreme justices were mentioned as being Catholic and utilizing their version of Catholic theology before the constitution. And I think that Biden is an excellent example of how maintaining one’s own beliefs and supporting the rule of law can be done.
Important to note that the Catholic church has a charismatic branch which aligns with Christian nationalism. It came about in the late sixties, but really picked up steam with the emergence of the Tea Party. Many social justice Catholics and traditional Catholics are uncomfortable with the charismatic branch, especially since it's emphasis is more on individual needs and emotions, and less on service and caring for others.
He's following in the founding father's footsteps
If you use the Bible as your guide, it has lots of advice on concubines and slaves. You can sell your daughter into slavery in a neighboring nation but not in your own nation. I have never had a concubine issue so this Biblical advice is a bit dated to my modern lifestyle. What the Bible has no guidance on is IVF treatments, the Higgs-Boson particle (God particle), genetically modified food, DNA cures for genetic diseases, AI warfare, social media,.... and a million other modern issues. In summary, the Bible is not relevant to most critical modern questions. Should we create dark matter in a cyclotron, or would that risk the collapse of our galaxy? What guidance does the Bible offer? Nix, Nada, less than a quantum vacuum of ambient virtual particles.
To be deliberately snarky, I used to ask my overly Bible-dependent friends to show me that God would never allow one of his children to be the one to introduce the technology that you reference. After all, are we not created in his image?
Thanks Daniel.
While some sects of Dominionism (best to capitalize it as it is a actually a thing, founded by Jr Rushdoony and Ted Cruz Father Rafael Cruz. it wants an America founded on Mosaic Laws, of which there are 613 in Leviticus, but of course they skip over most, like wearing clothing of mixed fabric or not eating pork or shell fish.
What they do want is the death penalty for less than faithful Christians, women who defy male rule, adulterers (mostly women) and rebellious teens and the method of execution is pure libertarian........stoning, because stones are free.
Dominionism is known as Christian Reconstruction, aka Christian NAZIs and they make the Taliban look liberal.. and that says a lot. Perhaps more akin to ISIS.
Here; Check this site out, it explains it better.
Also it is ecumenical, some Protestant sects may not recognize Catholics, but there are Catholic Christian Reconstrucionists, especially among the Trads (traditional or right wing organisations, like Opus Dei, Pius XII, Catholic Truth, Sojourners) I am positive that Mike Pence is a Dominionist. The first one I met back in 1998 was a Catholic, telling me I would get mine, when they restored order.
Render unto seizures. One can hope. Just kidding.
Catholics are experiencing something akin to a civil war among themselves. On one are the fundamentalists allied with libertarians, on the other side are those allied with Pope Francis, who want to disassociate the Church from vested interests and protect the poor from climate change and predatory capitalism. The former use LGBT issues and conspiracy theories to retain power.
and one of the findamentalist leaders in that came from St Louis. Raymond Burke, whom the Pope has punished. I was sitting in the rectory ? eating fish when Cardinal Burker was milking his rounds to the people eating there.With his mien and attendents in tow it reminded me a great deal of generals and their "horseholders" making their way among the troops. Same concept.
Recommend John Meachum's "And There Was Light" and "White Too Long" by Robert P Jones. Both go extensively into the twisted and anti-Biblical theology the South created to rationalize the continuance of slavery. That theology has remained present, and sadly, has recently resurfaced in a slightly different twisted form. Of course, NONE of this was taught to me as a student in Texas schools lol.
Many RW evangelical clergy make up their own biblical rules. They certainly didn't read it in a holy book. It's about control and wealth.
Yes I read Heather's blog too. Not the first time I've wondered if we shouldn't have let them secede. y'know, "Go in good health. We'll make some trade agreements. Done."
PAll of this is esspecially crazy because Jesus, the Christ in Christians didn't teach law. There was at the time a great tradition of rabbinical law. And some people saw the Torah as a laws for people to live by. But jesus broke those traditions a preached instead lessons to guide your life. One suggests a best direction the other limits your actions. The other difference was Jesus almost always talked about ways to think about love and value each other and the world God gave use. Rabbinical Law told people what not to do so that God.
Some times I wonder are fundamentalist Christians less Christian if they are ignoring the way Jesus acted and always promoted inclusion and love.
I'm sorry but I just took a course in this stuff and what he was preaching is in Deuteronomy. He probably said his prayers 3 times a day. Recited the Amidah.
The foundation for everything is Judea-Christianity is the Golden Rule, which despite propaganda to the contrary comes from the Old Testament.
In fact it probably was also in other religious works like Gilgamesh.
I’m worried about how much I think you’re absolutely right about all ofit.
Sadly yes,
I truly think we can still pull our country out of a terrible trough. But it’s going to take time to bring us around and away from fascism. The United States flirted seriously with fascism in the past, and it was our reaction to Adolph Hitler that turned us away from it.
Are our memories of that time fading? Egad. Do we need to be reminded?
What will we need to see the writing on the wall this time around? Donald is a pretty serious object lesson for Bad Thinking, but he’s also a clown, and clowns aren’t as scary as Nazis.
At the very least, we need our country NOT to let that clown back into office. But we also need to spare our country being under the thumb of the real leaders of the fascist movement that is afoot right now — people like The Heritage Society, The Tea Party, The So-Called “Freedom” Caucus, and the people bankrolling the MAGA machine.
Trump is a tool. He isn’t able to really run anything except his mouth. And even his mouth doesn’t do very well a lot of the time. But the Ultra-Right Wing machine is much more savvy and dangerous than he is, and they have a plan. They even brag about it
I hope people will see what’s in store, if we let the Evangelical Right team up with the oligarchs and usher in MAGA 2024 — and Project 2025 to remake our constitutional republic as a theocracy lead by a “strongman” president.
We cannot afford ANY Republican right now, unfortunately. The “machine” running that party is bent on remaking U.S. politics on Christian Nationalist grounds.
If we hope to turn that around, we need to vote Blue this year.
{If we want even the Democrats to do a better job of governing, we have to stay involved and energized to communicate the voices of the people and be louder than the oligarchs, but for November, our job is simple —VOTE BLUE.]
Mnuchin is the perfect example.
The Christian Nationalists would love nothing more than getting their foot in the door to teach creationism in our public schools. Mike Johnson dismisses. the separation of church and state that is a key principle of a functioning. democracy. Furthermore, the SC Christian extremists..have been violating. this. Key principle for years. by their partisan decisions. Let us not also dismiss Lenard Leo's hand in shaping the. SC docket behind the scenes.
We need to show what these theocracies are like in the many parts of the world they exist to make them real in people’s minds....Iran, Taliban, some African countries. Your life will be controlled and you will lose so many freedoms, not just the sexual ones.
What you can read, how you dress, etc.
Whether a male has his foreskin and a woman her clitoris.
Betty, Leonard Leo is one of those money-grubbing, power-grabbing rich guys who loves to act as though he is playing chess where he gets all the moves. It is sad so many people who are supposedly well-educated should fall under his "spell." Maybe he is watching to find people who are just as money-grubbing and power-grabbing as he is, carefully grooming them to do his bidding on whatever court he can get them onto. I blame him for our courts' bad, unconstitutional decisions lately, but also the Republican and some Democratic senators who know who and what he is, yet approved Leo's sycophants for the various courts. Mitch McConnell should be ashamed for what he has done to this country, but when one has no moral compass, shame is pretty much impossible. I hope he goes down in history as the villain he is. Yeah, how Christian of him, lying, filibustering nearly every positive bill that came up, cheating the American people, and pretending an insurrectionist wasn't really one. I am wondering what Leo owes McConnell for doing Leo's bidding. Or, maybe McConnell has always been on board with working to wreck our democracy. He is old, so I guess he thinks it won't matter since he'll be gone by the time the consequences of his unchristian behavior are felt.
Hey Curiosity, I know about the kind of thing your sister was talking about. Then, if the groups are refused, they whine and complain that there is free speech, and they should be able to present their views. Free speech does not mean that anyone has the right to lie to our children. Evolution is the truth as we know it now. Whatever fundamentalists of any kind are preaching that is not evolution is false and does not have to be part of any curriculum in a public school - end of discussion!
Precisely. I seethe every time I hear 'free speech' screeched about by immoral cretins to defend their vicious, harmful words. They have conveniently forgotten that with great freedom comes great responsibility.
Particularly in situations surrounding abortion rights. So many self-proclaimed 'good' folks wag their jaws about the evils of abortion yet how many of them are actually willing to stand up and adopt one or more of these tragically unwanted children? F***ing hypocrites!
I don’t really ‘like’ that. But have great sympathy for having to put up with them…
I was surprised coming to St Louis in 2005 when I had a coversation with a middle school teacher in a pubic school who said he and others did not teach evolution, or at most gave it short shrift, because of the parents. It began to dawn on me I was no longer in an area of the country where the Enlightenment had taken a firm hold. And this was in an urban area, not rural Missouri.
SirK-Too bad they don’t come in white. There is not much information about that company.
Marlo: yes: who is benefitting from the profits? Do they contribute to the GOP? ? Or even tRump?
Why not, that is how this Jesus religion started. Jewish salesmen standing in Roman markets, hawking their wares, which in this case was a pacifist ideology.
The Pharisees were actually the literati, the educated and cosmopolitan among the Jews of Jerusalem. Free thinkers, familiar with Greek Stoicism.
Unable to defeat Rome from without, they came up with the idea of defeating it from within by preaching a cult of pacifism, and it worked, but not overnight, over centuries.
What the Christian world refers to as the Bible,is simply a collection of dogma, some written, some not, but transcribed, sorted, sifted and approved by a group of men headed by an ascetic name of Jerome, assisted by one whom the cult of Rome called the Great one and canonized as St Augustine.
This first "Bible" was the Latin Vulgate, written not in the language of the patricians or now the Church of Rome, but in the language of the people, the vulgar or Vulgate
And of course the Roman Government, under Constantine, had the final say and added their own.
The whole thing is a concoction, out of thin air, yet people have been murdered,persecuted and tortured because people have this need to believe, if for no other reason than to assuage their fears and fulfill their needs, to fit in, to escape punishment for being an outsider, a non believer.
Yes, Lee. The concept of truth has always been so easily distorted and manipulated to shield and justify benighted special interest factions. The longer and louder lies persist, they are adopted as their own truths. The phrase, 'witch hunt' , so readily bandied about by Trump and his sycophants seemed an absurdity on its face, but we should also hear it as a warning because if this POS gets elected again, any individual or groups that oppose his regime will be justified as 'prey'.
I believe it was Hannah Ahrendt who said something to the effect that the authoritarian telegraphs his intention by accusing his opponent of that of which he is guilty or has intentions.
Probably seeking tax exemption.
Yes Susan Heath, They are the American Taliban!
Yes, Susan, they will always be around but hopefully we can get a lot of them out of public office by voting blue in November.
Christian nationalism would bring with it a ruthless, oppressive regime not seen since 1930’s Nazi Germany.
Susan, fundamentalism of any kind is a problem. The thing is that someone or small group decides what the "fundamentals" are, then pretend it reflects the full set of beliefs of that faith, claims it is in their tradition and holy book. Some precepts usually are, but the specifics are usually not. The way it worked in the past was that people were kept illiterate, so they didn't really know what the writings of the faith actually said. Now, people in many places are literate and can learn that what the fundamentalists are saying is made up. Those who know then get imprisoned or in some other way shut up so those not aware can continue to be manipulated. Maybe some ads need to be put on TV that describe the value of people of all different faiths working together as many of our founders intended, maybe quoting some of them like Franklin, Jefferson, and even George Washington. Maybe pointing out the ways current fundamentalists have abused their faith and people, while trying to force others to comply to their made-up "Christian" rules could help people wake up and stop blindly following hypocrites who call themselves "Christian," but don't live a faith that would be recognized by anyone in the first or even 18th through 20th centuries who considered themselves Christian. In short, as far as I can tell, the Republican fundamentalists have Trump as their deity, a man who is pretty far from Christian and their principles are money-grubbing and power-grabbing. That does not sound like a religion anyone should be part of.
Ruth, so true. As I have written before, their motto is, in effect, WTOOWJWD: What’s the opposite of what Jesus would do. Too many letters for a T shirt, and it doesn’t flow off the tongue, but it does represent what these self-proclaimed “Christians” (tried not capitalizing, but autocorrect changed it) do.
These turds have been around since “the young guns” arrived in the 90s with Paul Ryan….look where they’re at now…my atheist daughter was recently going to shred her baptism certificate in a purge of paperwork, and I advised her to keep it- she may need it in the future to prove she was Christian!
My Father, who fought in WWII, was firmly against my wife converting to Judaism. That was in 1978. His reasoning was analogous to yours. He feared a time when being a Jew in the US would not be safe.
Wow…no one ever expects the Spanish Inquisition! (I’m guessing by the date you mentioned you might get that reference). That sketch isn’t so funny anymore….
This is so sad Susan but it’s where the Christian Nationalism has come.
we are going to have to start paying more attention to the things that unite us instead of the things that divide us.
45 years ago, the Southern Baptist Convention endorsed the divorced Reagan over their member Carter, and that’s when we saw the first stirrings.
A true statement I believe, Susan. I continue to assert that Trump is not the problem so much as those who consider him their "Useful Idiot." They will still be around after November. They will find another Trump to carry their standard. Sometimes when I read these posts from Robert (Richardson and Joyce Vance too) I feel the need for some sad sarcasm. For example,
Perhaps we should all encourage women who use IFV and have unneeded/unwanted embryos to bequeath them to Judge Parker, Sen. Tuberville, Justice Barret, and the others. Then, the women and their families will be free from legal harassment, including murder charges, and let those who consider them children take responsibility. It would be fair and allow those, like Parker, to demonstrate their moral superiority. So, keep the clinics, and bequeath any remaining embryos - a win/win for everyone.
If one looks at the history of Christianity, one will quickly discover just how many deaths and how much damage to women, families, and communities the church has perpetrated over the centuries. It makes Hitler's holocaust, as horrible as it was, pale by comparison. All that death and destruction in the name of a just and loving God.
Imagine that all these folks' rail against the atrocities in Afghanistan, Iraq, and Iran; their treatment of women especially. Perhaps they are jealous, only wanting the same but under the "Christian" banner. Christian: OK / Muslim: Not OK
Looking at the survey provided in the post, I was not surprised to find that 3/5 of the respondents were from the South and Midwest. Even Dr. Reich tells us to sometimes take surveys with a grain of salt. Imagine what the survey responses might say if, for example, respondents were informed that most religions follow the same basic set of values as do Christians. The survey safely assumes respondents know of any differences, if any, before stating their preference for a Christian America.
Finally, I'll extend my sarcasm to the rights of an embryo, our religious freedoms, and the 2nd Amendment. These same folks who feel that an embryo is a life worth protecting, also feel there should be no regulation concerning "assault" weapons. That oxymoron used to bother me some, until I realized the only way these folks are going to assert and enforce their rigid religious values on the rest of us is through superior firepower. Why give away that power? It's worked for religious zealots for centuries.
Holy Water---At birth, evangelists aren't anointed with the stuff they are forced to drink it. Hence, the induction of an indentured soul. Oddly, they would pick on an intelligence not yet developed to the point where the individual could say "no thank you." Slavery was a form of indentureship, however much worse. Belonging to a religion that doesn't support the truth, is in essence a form of servitude. Sadly the South seems to be still asleep, holding its population in a Van Winkle type grasp. Down there they use religions as a weapon to punish up here we use to expand our conscientiousness. Maybe some of them down there should move to a location up here, where people use their minds to think not to lament the fact that they are missing theirs.
Christian Sharia.
Worse than Sharia, actually.
Not to worry their own children will leave them and follow better ideas.
I often think so, but then I watched Shiny Happy People, ostensibly about the Duggar family, but really about the extreme right-evangelical-Christian Nationalism-home schooling-Project Joshua move to change our nation. They do a good job indoctrinating those kids, starting with disciplining babies and screening out the real world. Sad and scary.
As a psychologist: disciplining babies is child abuse. Babies do not have the cognitive capacity to understand, while they will react with fear and contraction.
SAD and SCARY, and real
Some might, but not enough. We see how people become entrenched in their social groups and are afraid to leave them, if leaving even occurs to them. Children raised from infancy in an environment think that is “how things are.”
I wish I believed that! The Brainwashing seems thorough.
It is just as extreme as Islamic Fundamentalism. What is the difference except the names and deities?
Oh yeah; it's Christian sharia law.
They are the "American Taliban!"
Fetuses and embryos now have more of a right to life than women.
And immigrants apparently…:)
Jan - every fetus and embryo is "female". "Geneticists have discovered that all human embryos start life as females, as do all embryos of mammals. About the 2nd month the fetal tests elaborate enough androgens to offset the maternal estrogens and maleness develops."
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/4470128/#:~:text=Geneticists%20have%20discovered%20that%20all,maternal%20estrogens%20and%20maleness%20develops.
Actually, I have issues with the language used to describe that process — all embryos have characteristics that start out looking female. They are not actually all “females” genetically, though they all look that way very early on. Those characteristics may morph as the action of their particular prenatal environment causes various genes that are present to express or not express. The actual gender that finally results may LOOK various ways, and the individual may experience “self” in many ways. Gender is extremely fluid, but people don’t want to admit it.
I wish more people would read your comment Michael.
Most know that a female carries the X chromosone in her ovum. While the male sperm contributes either an X or Y, but what is not known is that the Y Chromosone is not really a Y but a truncated X, part of one leg of the X is still there, and that is why we all start life as females, and why males have useless nipples. all life was once parthogenetic (virgin birth), but the strategy did not produce offspring that could stand up to ever changing environmental assaults as parthogenesis produces clones.
BTW, Jesus, should be a female, not a male, no Y Chromosone, Unless somehow HaShem fornicated with her. The Quran implies that Al Lihah sent Gabri el, down to do the job,
Huh? Where the heck did we get jeezus DNA??
I didn't say anything about Jeezus DNA. I simply said that the result of a virgin birth has to have a female.
Don't quibble with me, quibble with science.
Oh, sorry, got it. Yes, indeed 🙂
That is correct
Jan-sad but true. We are no longer a civilized nation.
I don’t believe we ever were. Not yet at least. This is all a natural outgrowth of the fact that “settlers” were actually conquerors and all of this is stolen and pillaged land. If we can face that and actually deal with it, then we are on our way to civilized. Though I think a better goal is honest and equitable. Because the fascists can also try to claim “civilized”. But not honest or equitable.
Great points!!
you know what they say---taxes are the price of civilization.
That is exactly what I said as soon as I heard the Alabama court ruling yesterday!!!
this is a terrific ruling. What could be better to convince some undecided voters what the agenda of the right really is, and to what extremes they will go to crush peoples personal liberty. That's why Trump came out against it. He knows it's a big loser for his side.
More like a right to work (we should change it to something like "right to struggle")...
Where or where are the 3 wise men, then?
9 Republican Supreme Court justices In Alabama are using Religious beliefs to make a decision that affects all of the people in their state! They need to revert back to the Constitution, namely the 1st amendment, Freedom of Religion!
I suspect that Alabama Bible-belt enthusiasts are out of touch with the Republican base in many other states.
An important element of the Republican base is of the Libertarian persuasion, stressing the value of government non-interference in pretty much everything, especially religion. Libertarians tend to be agnostic or atheistic, providing a grating internal contradiction in the Republican coalition.
p.s. I am an old-school anti-war FDR Democrat. My views on a number of topics are in my substack "notes":
https://substack.com/profile/85178460-john-schmeeckle/notes
Subscribed! 😀😀
No one cares about the libertarians. The GOP hasn’t cared about the libertarians for years.
Yes Vanyali, no one cares about libertarians, but libertarians have embedded themselves in our politics, as Republicans, Independents and Democrats, and they do have a party which is a throw away.
I'll suggest that there is a difference between the fringe Libertarian Party and libertarian-leaning Republicans who gave momentum to the Tea Party movement. There is no reason to think that old Republican Tea Partiers will now embrace Christian Nationalism, even if they support Trump.
Nice thought John, but wishful thinking. Christian nationalism has taken over the Republican party, and one either goes along or gets out. 20 Republican congress critters are not seeking re election, because of the cult. They know if they stay and fight they will lose anyway, so get while the getting is good.
The old Republican's have become independent Never Trumpers and joined the Lincoln project or the Bulwark, one, Charlie Sykes, is a paid analyst now for MSNBC, so is Tim Miller, a gay libertarian former Republican.
IMO the old Tea Partiers are the base of the MAGA cult, they were as wild and extreme as the MAGAts. I remember groups of them standing on street corners of busy intersecions waving their signs with their stupid hats.
I think the Tea Party was simply the first step in today’s populism. It cloaked itself in the old, tired Republican rhetoric everyone was used to, but I really don’t think that old rhetoric was actually what was animating that movement. The Tea Party was early MAGA.
I'm inclined to see the Tea Party as an outgrowth of the John Birch Society and the Barry Goldwater/Ronald Reagan wing of the Republican party. I'll suggest that Tea Partiers have been uncomfortable with big-spending Donald Trump, especially with all his dog-whistling to the redneck element of his base.
Read “ How Did Haley’s South Carolina Become Trump Country? Ask the Tea Party.” in the NYT today on the subject of how the Tea Party turned into MAGA.
Goldwater was a mixed bag, his thing was anti communism, but he also said "you don't have to be straight to shoot straight, Goldwater was not a cultural warrior
"
Eventually. I am concerned that the Christian Nationalism wing will completely win out over the libertarian wing. OR, libertarian strongmen will abandon their idea that too much government is a bad idea and will embrace their power, using the Christians to do their bidding — thereby making it LOOK like Christians are running things. The erstwhile libertarian rulers will be laughing up their sleeves all along, enjoying their perch at the top. Kind of like Putin on the one hand, and Mussoliini on the other. Neither cared a fig for the principles they espoused, as long as they could use rhetoric to keep themselves in power. I’m kind of dark in my visions that way.
All of those things — Barry Goldwater (!) — were so long ago. They were fossilized by the time the Tea Party emerged. Think about who these people were and what they are doing now. Anyone who supported Barry Goldwater was in a nursing home. Anyone who voted for Reagan was on their way out too. The Tea Party people were still mouthing the platitudes of the Republican Party but their attitude was different. They wanted to stir things up, and create a populist movement. They were fixated on the negative aspects of the old platitudes — politicians annd bureaucrats are bad and out to get you — not the positive aspects about entrepreneurs or whatever. The Tea Party was mailing tea bags to people, they were cheeky. The people who were mailing the tea bags are now volunteering for Trump, and they probably don’t even know who Barry Goldwater was.
Trump's cult and the corporate media have destroyed the idea of populism.
Like all things there are functional and dysfunctional, good and bad versions.
There is left wing populism and right wing populism.
Left wing populism is the populism of Bernie Sanders, it is social justice, equality, DEI.
Right wing populism is fascist, authoritarian.
The only examples we see, historical and at present are right wing populism.
Huey Long and William Jennings Bryan were right wing populism, though they did take elements of left wing populism, like not being crucified on a cross of gold (the bullshit gold standard,it worked so well in the USSR /s)
I think you are right about a libertarian bent in the Republican Party, and perhaps even the Tea Party {they use the rhetoric, anyway}. But Trump’s base places a strong sense of “justification” for his immorality on their belief that he is an agent of their god. We may eventually see a clash between the Right and the Libertarians on that score …
This thing about Trump being sent from God, Pat … This is the best God can do? I mean seriously.
LOL, well, when you look at how poorly designed and prone to breaking down the human body is, well, yeah, “God” sending Trump is just more of the same.
They will if it’s convenient for them.
I would say "personal beliefs". I understand the "justices" THINK their decision is rooted in Scripture, but that doesn't mean that it is. The Bible says nothing about frozen embryos nor IVF; it does have PLENTY to say about "love your neighbor as yourself".
If you don't understand how Alabama can be this way, you have never been there. They still run around with confederate battle flags on their pickup trucks. Does that tell you something?
Failure to evolve since the Civil War.
Inbreeding
The US Constitution provides us with freedom * from * religion as well as a freedom of religion.
The state with some of the mist uneducated people in the nation
I understand it must be pretty scary how mad your country is becoming but spare a thought for those of us watching from afar. All those nukes!
Nigel, I imagine you would want to know that Veteran’s For Peace, along with several co-sponsors and endorsers, has organized a 700-mile walk, from Augusta, Maine to Washington, DC April 27th-July 6th, for Peace and Planet, Justice and Democracy. Among the 13 reasons listed for walking, numbers #1 and #2 are “for an end to war, especially the looming threat of nuclear war” and “for the children, that they may grow up without the worry of nuclear Armageddon or the climate crisis.”
Ultimately, the walkers are walking for people, peace and life on this beautiful planet we all cherish.
Thanks for that Barbara I know your country is full of good people it’s just gets a bit depressing reading some of the blogs which often paint such a gloomy picture
Great in principle but what about Putin?
Paula, While I don’t have a ready solution, I won’t abandon the urgent humanitarian imperative to amplify the catastrophic humanitarian consequences of nuclear weapons.
As I said to Nigel, Surrender now. Help Putin. /s
Surrender now before it is to late. /s
Guns, God, state control of women's bodies, book banning, religious immigration discrimination, LGBT persecution. Unregulated corporate capitalism, unaffordable health care, unaffordable higher education, enormous wealth disparity and inequality, soaring addiction and opiate mortality, militarized police, racial profiling. It doesn't have to be this way. We could actually solve many of these problems if we took corporate money out of campaign finance. But it's the money of the Mellons and the Mercers and the Kochs and their ilk that is turning the once most envied society of the world into a shithole country. And it is a personality cult of white Christian Confederate retrogrades driving the destruction.
1st few sentences read like a very powerful ad!! As if we need any more reasons to vote blue up & down the ticket @ every level of government. Great copy!
Yes!!
You forgot their mouthpiece Donald the Rump.
Love this comment!! Can I copy and paste elsewhere??
Oh hell yeah. 😂
Good comments, Robert. Let's add two points briefly.
One, the sentence "All of these private freedoms are under increasing assault from Republican legislators and judges who want to impose their own morality on everyone else." It is pretty obvious that both the corporate-republican politicians and the fake evangelists both have no morality. They are all about stealing the money while leading the simple people (Proverbs 1) to their doom. The simple people need guidance, but they are being simply brainwashed to do wrong.
The other point is about the religious tropes that came across the Atlantic with the early settlers. Essentially, the future USA was a White Anglo-Saxon Protestant set of cultures. Not only that, but the vast majority were extremists ("Dissenters") who fought a bloody civil war under Oliver Cromwell in the 1600s... when their enemies, the Parliamentarians (Anglican) won, the Dissenters (Puritans, etc) were driven out (some to Netherlands, and expelled there) and fled to the Colonies. Can't go into the whole history here, but let's realize that those fundamentals are still deeply rooted. The wealthy plantation owners created their own religions ("Southern - "; example: Southern Baptists 1845) when they realized that slavery was going to be forbidden. In other words, simply put, the roots of today's "'evangelists" flying around in $60 million luxury jets and ordering cases of expensive French wine at their beach resorts (I saw it with my own eyes in San Diego) have their airconditioned doghouses (Jim & Tammie Fay Baker) while the Simple People eat dog food and donate their last dollar... I'll close there for now. Point is: today's dirtiness has long, deep roots. Can we overcome the past and present to recreate the future that our Founders & Framers envisioned nearly a quarter millennium ago?
Frozen embryos, bah hum bug. Freeze the little guys before they are considered embryos. It's a simple fact, a newly fertilized egg is a Zygote not an embryo. Freeze the zygotes prior to the point when the embryonic stage begins, and Alabama can go suck eggs. As for the church entering into our political lives, no thank you. Some dweeb from that Southern state mentioned the word "God" while explaining his position, and by doing so he just jumped into the back seat with Boebert. If you are in politics and you feel the need to bring God into the conversation you don't understand this country or what the founding fathers were trying to build way back then.
Thank you, Donald for bringing this fact up, zygotes are indistinguishable cells rapidly dividing. Even an embryo would be difficult to recognize as a future Homo sapiens. It isn't until the fetal stage that you can barely make out the Homo sapiens formation. And these critters aren't viable (that is capable of living independently outside the uterus) until well into the third trimester of gestation. We aren't kittens.
Fay ---Ditto--
Speaking of fetus
What organism lives in the body of a host and draws it's nourishment from that host, at the hosts expense.?
A. Tapeworm
B. Parasite
C. Fetus
D. All of the above.
LOL!! D, of course, all of the above. One thing in favor of the fetus it is usually there with the consent of both parents, which cannot be said of tapeworms, bacteria, or viruses. Even the helpful ones like Escherechia coli. are not there by invitation.
Point made, emphasis on the USUALLY.
Additional truth to your statement is that the Anglican Church of England usurped the religious authority of the Pope - sort of the English Pope. That was some of the oppression that our founders were escaping.
Gordon. The guys who signed the Declaration of Independence were a mixed lot, some where deists (a euphemism for agnostic or atheist) some were actually Anglicans, especially those in New England, like John Adams.
Ben Franklin fled Boston for Philadelphia, because Massachusetts was a stern theocracy.
The Puritans, in particular the "Pilgrims" or Brownists, brought with them the sternest of religious ideologies, which have subsequently spread through this nation like a cancer and are on the verge of taking over our government.
The ideology of the Puritans is worse than that of the "English Pope".. the King/Queen
Right on, Lee
You are close, Gordon, but it was not the Church of England that usurped the pope, it was Henry the VIII. When his subjects grew annoyed with him for beheading his wives and the Catholic Church in Rome refused top allow and annulment he formed his own church (the Church of England later called Anglican) with himself proclaimed as head of the Church. Now he could divorce his wife as he tired of her, or she only produced daughters. By this time he had already contracted syphillis so the only son he ever produced died as a child leaving his daughter Elizabeth the 1st, a far superior monarch than her correctly maligned parent.
A few Catholics came to the United States colonies to escape the oppression to the Catholic Church. Most remained to fight another day.
Gordon --Something Ms. Boebert seem to want back.
Excuse the pun - God help us! My Catholicism is deep rooted - I even, occasionally, still cuss in Christian.
Gordon--You're a good man.
Scientifically speaking, yes. Apparently there ignorant interpreters of laws think the Constitution specifies separation between Science and State, instead of separation between Church and State.
Margaret--Sadly, I see it as science-vs-fiction.
You’re so funny, Donald. Yesterday it was (Ras)Putin, today it’s jumping into the backseat with Lauren Boebert. Thank you for the laughs!
Paula--LOL stay tuned.
Paula--I spoke with a guy from Boebert's area an as he puts it, she used to charge for her services before she went into respectable politics.
🤣🤣
I warned you
John T. Cullen,
You have a problem with your timeline.
My Pilgrim and Puritan ancestors settled in New England in the 1620s and 1630s, BEFORE the time of Cromwell and his ilk. And then immigration to New England all but stopped.
The Cromwellian republic fell apart in 1660, and it did not precipitate a wave of emigration. However, the restored King Charles II did bring about the new proprietary colonies of Pennsylvania, New Jersey, and New York.
Thanks, but... New Haven was founded in 1638. Yes, the stage was long set for more Puritans to arrive. The Puritans in Hartford, who probably dated to the time of your ancestors, were not severe or "Gothic" enough so the most extreme set off down the Connecticut River mouth and founded what is now New Haven. From my reading years ago, a bunch of Dissenters from Cromwell's era fled to the Netherlands, but were expelled, and fled to the Colonies. This whole history is not a simple timeline but a blend of various tropes. Your comment does flesh out the history some more. Thank you.
Yes, a group of Cromwellian Dissenters, including perhaps three persecuted regicides (parliamentarians who voted the death penalty for King Charles I), found their way to what is now Connecticut.
There were essentially two migrations to what was then called Virginia (which included the eastern seaboard form Roanoke to Maine)
The first was 1607 through 1653 to the James River community. the first were adventurers of purse, some freemen and mostly indentured servants.
The second was to Massachusetts Bay in 1620, and they stopped their only to replenish their beer, as they were head south to what was New Amsterdam.
With the victory of Cromwell, the royalists fled to Virginia and were welcomed by Gov Wm Berkeley, as peers to help him administer the colony.
With the restoration of Charles II, the Parliamentarians, from the North and East of England fled to Massachusetts
The South was populated by the scions of landed gentry and lesser nobility and in 1653 by royalists. They came from London and counties surrounding London, mostly Surrey, bringing with them their speechways and customs.
New England was populated by parliamentarians and puritans from the North and East of England bringing with them their speech ways and customs.
In a ironic sense, the American civil war was actually a four year battle, and the last battle of the English Civil war, because at root were conflict between two forms of rule or living.
John T Cullen, the dissenters that fled to Leiden Holland, were the Brownists, and decades before Cromwell, they chartered the Mayflower, stopped at Plyhmohth picked up 70 Puritans who were not radical religious extremists but people who want to reform the Anglican church
Excellent Mr Schmeeckle.
With the victory of the round heads (Parliamentarians) the cavaliers (royalists) fled to Virginia and became the ruling class, supplanting the original ruling class of planters and freemen that migrated between 1607 and 1653.
John, I would accept the morality of the religious biggots.
Problem is why The Dutch, with their fanatic Dissenters became leading in modernity and the U.S. citizens moved moally back to the Midlle Ages. That is, I don't understand that. See my first comment.
I was replying but my text vanished. I was trying to make sure of my facts and did a quick lookup on Wikipedia. Good question, one I have also thought about. back to you soon if I can. JTC
Found my text. Here is my best shot at answering, with all respect. Good question, Thomas. I've wondered the same myself. Look at the ultra-progressive NL of today, versus years ago. We have to look past the bland propaganda of religious extremists and we'll see the geo-political engine behind it all. When the Low Countries shook off Spanish (Catholic) imperial rule, the area was embroiled in the religious wars of the Protestant Reformation. Consider the fact that Cromwell's reign of error & terror came to an end in the (what? 1660s?) followed by the last Catholic king of England, James II. His father, James I, had been beheaded by the Parliamentarians in 1648. Then in 1688 was the so-called Glorious Revolution when the English Parliamentarians joined forces with the NL king and sent a new king & queen (William and Mary of Orange). That's the Orange that the English settlers in Northern Ireland are marching about every year through Catholic neighborhoods (not much longer, from the looks of it). When William and Mary became King and Queen, they joined forces with the English Royalists (Anglican, Parliamentarian) versus the remaining Dissenters, clan chiefs, etc. Note the Low and High versions of the Anglican Church... a compromise apparently reached in that age... a High Church service much resembles a Catholic Mass, whereas the Low Churches (mainly in the north toward Scotland) tend to have no stained glass, no statues, etc and look much like Calvinist churches. Back to NL: Having overthrown Spanish empire, and now joining in a new Protestant alliance, it seems clear that the Netherlands King would not tolerate anarchism... so the Dissenters (anarchists, but more to the point clan-driven like in Scotland) fled to the Colonies. Note that the Province of New England was originally founded by the restored English king, with a Governor personally responsible to him, to try and keep the Puritans/Calvinists/Dissenters/Anarchists in check. I came of age in New Haven, CT one of the most severe Dissenter cities in North America. Three of the major avenues downtown (Whalley, Goffe, and Dixwell) were named after three of the more than fifty "judges" who ordered King James I beheaded...Another example of this extremism: teaching, reading, or studying French was forbidden in New Haven until the 1800s or so because the Dissenters (see American Gothic painting: Dour faces, gray clothing, pitchfork, etc) believed it fostered immorality ("French"). The colonies harbored this history into the 1700s, and it is no surprise that they (especially the Simple People) were ready to grab their pitchforks and overthrow King George in 1776. That in turn should give us some clue about why the NL stayed on a more easy path... That is my reading of the whole thing, reduced to a few lines. JTC
Despite this history, and despite the "great awakening," God is not mentioned in the original text of the Constitution.
I thought about why they restored the monarchy once they were rid of it, and concluded they needed a figure for the people to blame for the way they governed instead of blaming them.
In England they call it "posh." In the Gilded Age, US billionaires had money and power... while a lot of old English aristocrats had lost their wealth and were struggling (not all, but some). So picture yourself, with a lot of money & power... you'll want to have a fancy flag, and wear that crown (looks like a flowerpot) on your head... sounds like fun. If you can afford it. I can't.
Nice story John; with my knowledge it is in essence correct.
But the Glorious Revolution seems not enough to explain the difference in development between the US and NL.
In my lifetime I have seen and experienced World War 2, told to me by my parents, the distancing of their religions in the reconstruction period. My grandparents were catholics, the remaing grandma on mothers side was protestant.
In the sixties the influence of religion was shrinking, woman emancipation was fast, provo undermined traditional politics, the TV brought us satire and laughter.
Now we see a terrible change to the right and a fanatical politics and hardening in style.
I compare that with Trumpism.
But religious bigotry is still not visible, nor retrograde moral legislation. I don't know why not. When pressed, I would say, satire and laughter makes you stronger and milder.
Thanks, Tom. I'm Irish Catholic on my father's side, and Luxembourgeois on my mother's side. I have dual U.S./Luxembourg (and EU) citizenship these days. Complex story... US Army brat, born in the 385th US Army Station Hospital (gone now; former Wehrmacht hospital). We were stationed in West Germany, France, and Luxembourg when I was a child. Came to New Haven, CT at age 10. There is a lot more history, but my perspective is that the Low Countries (Belgium, NL, Lux) represent a whirlpool of political/religious change throughout history... however far you want to go; Celtic times, Roman times, Germanic...Charlemagne...during the Reformation. I can see that in Luxembourg history, going back to Lotharingia (one of three divisions of Charlemagne's empire in the 800s). My point (yes there is one) is that nothing is simple in this glaring mess. Some of the royal houses in the 1600s or so remained Catholic while others went Protestant. Example of the whirlpool as follows: I was stationed (US Army soldier) five years in Rhineland-Palatinate not far from Luxembourg. One would think that this is prime Luther territory BUT the whole region was owned by the Wittelsbach kings (Mad Ludwig included; the most Catholic part of Germania) of Bavaria until early 1900s in part. Example: one of our Kasernes or Barracks (Kleber) in Kaiserslautern was built in the 1700s and has a Baroque look (see Wikipedia). Oddly, for whatever reason, the French and later US Army referred to it as Kleber Kaserne, while the German bus line showed "23rd Kaserne" up front as the destination; that happened to be a unit of Bavarian hussars who occupied the barracks in the 1700s-1800s. That's just an example of how utterly mixed up the mish-mash is in Europe. Back to our point about NL vs US now...the movement of Calvinists out of UK into Northern Ireland and USA in my opinion mirrors the spectrum from London (Anglican at the time) over to Calvinist (Scotland, New England Province). A very different, separate dynamic in the Low Countries, where you have Catholic Luxembourg vs Protestant Netherlands but filtered in you have Belgium (Vlamsk and Limburg in the north... and French speaking Wallonia in the south). All the deck chairs kept being rearranged through the Early Modern to Modern centuries... so the Protestant/Catholic dynamic had its own focus in the Low Countries, totally divorced from the dynamics of the UK and its empire. We in the USA divorced ourselves from European monarchy, except during the Gilded Age after the US Civil War, when the industrial North sort of hooked back up with the English... the Industrial Revolution began to blossom in New England during the 1830s, probably, and grew powerful in the Civil War. The South was essentially occupied, with so many of our major US military installations located across the South (sometimes with Confederate names, which is now changing also). It's been estimated that something like 1000 US wealthy heiresses were traded off to English aristocracy in the late 1800s, sort of an exchange of US money for English titles. Consider: Winston Churchill's mother was Jenny Jerome, a billionaire daughter from New York City. They all had a big club going in England, with the likes of Consuelo Vanderbilt and... well, Princess Diana's Spencer clan had connections in the US I believe, and as another crazy example, Eleanor Roosevelt was a distant cousin of Jefferson Davis. Ultimately, to close this fun ramble, I'd say that history is more about money and power than about simplistic religious ideas. One last look under the covers of this grand whirlpool: When the Industrial Revolution really took off after the Civil War, all the Irish (and later Italian, Polish, etc) laborers arriving on the Fall Line (Connecticut River) caused a lot of the old Puritan communities to fold up and move west... forming the underpinnings of today's Red States. Nothing ever stays the same, so maybe this will all continue evolving into more confusion. cheers/JTC
Masterful description, John!! Thank you.
The Dutch were not fanatic dissenters. Those were the followers of Robert Browne, a radical puritan who broke away from the Anglican church.
The Dutch had recently freed themselves of the Spanish Catholic yoke, and were tolerant to a degree, welcoming the Calvinist and Huguenots, and other protestand sects, but were intolerant of the intolerant Brownists (Saints/Pilgirms)
Lee. maybe dissenters is not the proper word and creates misunderstanding. I meant the protestant migration, that went on for many years from Holland to America and beyond. I'm not a specialist in the history of religion in the middle ages, bu still have the hunch that the protestant radicals emigrated and created a milder sphere of tolerance.
I'm curious whether you believe satire and mockery can contribute to this mildness as well? When I see CPAC defending Trump's attack on democratic values, you need a lot of that.
Tom, I son'r know about the puritan radicals, AKA Brownists creating a milder sphere of tolerance. They were pretty damn intolerant, the fore fathers of Mike Johnson and Christian Nationalist. They didn't mellow in Massachussets, on the contrary were unrestrained. the Salem Witch Trials are the most prominent example.
The Church of England in it's forms as Anglican and Episcopal, is pretty damn mild compared to the Puritan interpretation.And the Brownist version of Puritanism has infected the disUnited States, and is the base of the MAGAt movement.
I do not understand your second paragraph, at all
God I hope so John. This entire “musical” being played out by so called “religious” human animals makes me want to run in the opposite direction FAST! They are a desperate scab of infestation of sick fantasy.
I am so sad at how we demean God! Every creepy action by the maggot group is blamed on God. How dare they…..
I agree, Jean (Muriel). I have only one central belief: Matthew 7:12, a direct quote from Leviticus 19:18... the Golden Rule. It is the only aspect of religiosity that can be shown as having cause/effect proof. The rest is science fiction... the simple people do need it for guidance so they will enact the Golden Rule. That is with good leadership. With bad leadership (the korporate republikans in the USA, and other extremists around the world) we quickly descend into death & chaos. The Golden Rule is the entire "Law and the Prophets."
John T Cullen. I agree with the gist of your comment, but not the particulars.
You are correct in as much as a sect of extremeist Puritans known as Brownists, for their intellecual leaders, fled to Leiden Holland, they wanted to completely separate from the Church of England.
The Dutch soon got tired of their extremism and forced them out, so they chartered a fluyt, but they numbered only 32, not enough to defray the expense, so they recruited Puritans who boarded the Mayflower at Plymouth, England.
The Brownists called themselves saints and were separatists. The puritans remained members of the church of England, there were four sects of Puritans and although they stayed in the church there goal was to reform it.
The Mayflower had 102 passengers, 70 of which were Anglican Puritans, the other 32 Brownist Separatists. The word Pligrim didn't enter our vocabulary until the diary of the Brownist leader, Bradford was discovered in the 19th Century.
These Brownists and Puritans arrived in the Massachussets Bay in 1620, they were followed by others and a mass migration from the north and east of England after the restoration of Charles II by other parliamentarians.
Over 20 years before the Puritans, A group of wealthy businessmen and lesser nobility, got together and petitioned King James for a charter to go into Virginia in search of gold and silver.
At that time the entire eastern seaboard from the Roanoke colony to Maine was called Virginia.
The name of this company was The Virginia Company of London, it sent out it's first ship of indentured servants and adventurers of purse (investors were call adventurers then), in 1607 and they settled in what they named Jamestown, a bit of dry land surrounded by marsh, and the rivers they named James and Elizabeth.
Virginia was not a colony at the time, but became one when the King revoked the charter in 1624.
Another group of adventurers had pooled their resources and petitioned the king for a charter to settle the northern part of Virginia, we now call New England.
This company was the Virginia Company of Plymouth, it came of naught, no interest. it was revived in 1620 with the landing of the puritans.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plymouth_Company
The Virginians and Carolinians, were not religious fanatics. The churches in Virginia were Anglican, until the revolution, then those that weren't disestablished renamed themselves Episcopal.
Religious fanaticism came to the South with the Great Awakenings I and II, I was in the late 18th Century, before the revolution, when Massachussets puritan preachers came south and proselytized the people, these were primarily Baptists. My fifth great grandfather became a convert to Baptist around 1766.
The second "Great Awakening" too place in the early 19th Century with revival tent shows.
A prominent revivalist was Lorenzo Dow,and that name shows up frequently in Southern families in that era as Lorenzo Dow Jones, or Lorenzo Dow Smith etc.
This is where Christian fanaticism starts, it's foundation is Brownist. followers of Robert Browne
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brownists
Lee Markland,
I've read a bit about how Plymouth Colony came to be, and if I remember correctly, when John Robinson's Separatist congregation arrived in Holland, there was a Brownist congregation that they declined to join.
That Wikipedia link isn't well-sourced, and Wikipedia's article about John Robinson doesn't say anything about Brownism.
Maybe it's all academic, but I think the point is to think through the origins of present-day religious fundamentalism.
A little background. I was a wikipedia edior, anyone can edit wikipedia, they had best be intimiately familiar with policy and guidelines and use reliable secondary sources.
Most editors have articles on their watch list, if anyone edits an article on your watch list, you are notified. And people who have articles on their watch list have an emotional involvement with that article. if you edit it , even with reliable secondary resources, and they don't like it, they will revert it,and if you revert the revert, you wind up in a revert war, and possibly get referred to a review committed (there are quite a few, all staffed by volunteer editors).
There are cliques in wikipedia, long time editors, that even attend conferences,hobnob, party and date each other., you might be battling a clique, or someone who is a favorite.
My point here is that I tried to edit articles about the Pilgrims,the Brownists, etc and ran into a descendant of a "pilgrim" who had a very vested interest in protecting his version of the myth.
One of which is that the Mayflower agreement (covenant i n their lexicon) was the foundation for our Constitution. Whereas the first instance of self governance was the House of Burgess, when it was an organ of the joint stock venture, the Virginia Company of London, and was formalized as such by the third charter of 1619, a year before the "pilgrims" landed.
I don't know who John Robinson is, never heard of him, but the Brownists, the cult of Robert Brown(e) is easily researched. There are articles and info all over the net.
If a wikipedia articles not well sourced, it will be challenged, there are always people viewing new articles and even new edits.
That and there is often a Header inside a rectangle stating that the article needs more sources.
Wiki is useful, but if the article is highly charged with mythos, religion, ideology or is political it becomes a mess.
I tried to edit in to Ronald Reagan's article his treason with the Ayatollah Khomeini and it was reverted, the excuse given was that it was controversial and not proven, my source was an interview with the christian Monitor and Ayatollah Bani al Sadr.
I tried the same with Nixon, and again it was reverted with some lame ass excuse.
And if you dare call them out, you will be banned, unless you fall on your knees, prostrate yourself and promise to sin no more.
BTW I started about 10 articles, my son (now 63) is still at it, I'm too old and tired to be bothered. He is a college professor and does it to kill time.
And oh, you can start and edit an article, but nobody owns it. It is all public domain.
Guys...John Schmeekle and Lee Markland et al... it's so funny. I tried my hand at Wikipedia editing also, and gave up. I've been through the edit wars, believe me. I love Wikipedia and make a small monthly donation. I use it all the time. And another kicker: as much as I loathe Reagan and the Reaganists, there is one thing Reagan said that I always quote when thinking of Wikipedia: "Trust but verify." That is my Wikipedia mantra. Probably the only smart thing Reagan (of Calvinist background) ever said (or was he quoting someone smarter than himself?) Wikipedia is a good, quick lookup, and usually on track; has a lot of great info; but academics would not dare quote it in an academic paper. I love history, and am a life-long writer/editor... but i consider myself more of a journalist on the nonfiction side, not an academic writer.
i actually got bored. I achieved my goals, I started 10 articles,and edited more, but I am not an English major, nor a grammarian, and couldn't find any articles that would interest me, I did try an edit or two in Colonization of Mars. (Impossible, man can never colonize as the gravity it too weak, to hold light gases (hydrogen, oxygen, nitrogen to it's surface). they once were, but were spun off into space, by the centrifugal force of the planet, except at the poles, where there is no such force.
The established order is trying to come up with all manner of reasons, Mars lost it's atmosphere, except the most obvious, gravity is not a product of mass, but a current force, produced by a current process and when that process diminishes (cools down) the electro magnetic gravitic force is weakened, and a diminished gravity, can not hold light gases to the surface.
Gravity acts by pulling everything to it's surface, and light gaseous molecules pile up and create atmospheric pressure. Decrease gravity and the light gases dissipate, and liquids "boil" off, That's why pilots and astronauts wear pressure suits, until they are in pressure enhanced enclosures like the ISS
The only problem is that gravity as a current force, flies in the face of Newtonians 1st law, and realizing that has a domino effect. I am sure that NASA knew that, which is why they sent so many exploratory vehicles to the moon, to determine the neutral point and lunar gravity.
I've sone some back of the envelope calculations based on NASA revelations and the performance of astronauts and the moon rover and it turns out the gravity of the moon is .64ge not .16666666 ge. The recent privately launched lander that landed on the south pole, had a rough landing, rougher than expected if it was .1666ge,
There is more, but my exposition convinced a few, but finally they were chastised and I was reverted
Finally I got into it on an article with culture war significance and i called and editor for what she was, and refused to apologize so I was banned. No matter I was bored anyway, and time to move on, I had accomplished all that I had wished to accomplish, and there is no way I can change the world or peoples minds.
I have some experience as a Wikipedia editor on controversial subjects, but rarely there these days. Peripheral articles like the one on Brownism get neglected.
John Robinson was the pastor of a Separatist congregation in Leiden, before a good-sized minority of his congregation got on the Mayflower and went to America. If Robinson was not a Brownist, then the Mayflower Pilgrims were not Brownists.
Loosely, they were all Calvinists, as well as the Dutch, and the Scottish Presbyterians, too.
The 32 that boarded the Mayflower in Leiden were Brownists, but the cost of hire for the ship was too high, so they sailed to Plymouth and picked up 70 Puritans who weren't Brownists.
That 32 of the 72 were Brownists comes from the Diary of William Bradford, the leader of the English Puritan Separatists (Brownists) the other 72 Puritans were not Separatists but members of the Church of England (Anglican in America) who didn't want to separate but to reform the church.
Yes, I descend from both groups, but the Separatist members of John Robinson's congregation weren't Brownists, and William Bradford never said they were.
Many of the members of John Robinson's congregation in Leiden lived in a "group home" owned by widow Marie de Lannoy (Delano), whose daughter married John Carver (who would be chosen governor) and whose son Philip was on the Speedwell, the leaky ship that initially accompanied the Mayflower. (He joined the Plymouth settlers the following year.) My grandmother's fourth cousin Franklin Delano Roosevelt and I also descend from Richard Warren, one of the London "Merchant Adventurers" financing the trip who sailed on the Mayflower and became one of Plymouth Colony's early leaders.
You may already know that the Calvinist theology of the Puritans and the various Separatist groups (including Brownists) was basically the same.
John, the Puritans were extremists. That’s why they had to leave Europe. Then in this country things got even crazier when the Great Awakening materialized. The history of religion in this country is one of extremism and lunacy.
SOME of the Puritans were extremists. The ones who settled in Massachusetts, by and large, weren't.
Anne Hutchinson was an extremist, so they made her leave.
I agree... glad we kicked off this discussion. In the broader sense, we must all remind ourselves that there are good and bad people in every persuasion. Much as I rail against Puritanism, Calvinism, etc... from my travels in the world, working & living across two continents over many years, I have encountered what we might call village idiocy in every area... Europe, North America, you name it. But my fundamental belief is that *people everywhere are the same... good ones, bad ones, and mostly okay ones.* That is my mantra. When I get frustrated with village religion, I always counter myself by thinking of the 1943 Norman Rockwell painting Freedom Of Speech (find it on, yes, Wikipedia for quick lookup)... my point is that much as we can picture the (dark humor) dour couple with the pitchfork... Grant Wood's 1930 painting is a dark parody... he used as models his sister and the family dentist, pretending to be the archetypal dark religionists... We can chuckle at that, but then I swing back to the heroic image of the plain, simple man (Freedom of Speech) standing up in a small town council and freely giving his speech among the posh and well-dressed (money people). A quick point about Puritan villages: many were tyrannies, and in a few, some women were executed for witchcraft. The key at the bottom of it all, which the Romans employed in the world's longest surviving democracy (about 509 to about 31 BCE, with a lot of rough edges) is balance and moderation. For example, every public office was occupied by two officials including magistrates from Consul on down; each could veto the other's decisions. The fatal exception was the office of Dictator, usurped by the likes of Sulla and Julius Caesar in the late republic with fatal consequences. That's why we have checks and balances so that no single viewpoint or even nut-case can seize the day (like Putin's errand boy Trum appears to be doing today).
Good point.
Tough challenge to get back to the roots of our democracy!
Embryos aren’t “babies,” they are PROPERTY, plain and simple.
The Alabama high court ruling, along with Nikki Haley’s pandering to the most ignorant and sanctimonious segment of the Republican base, sets up a showdown between that one-issue faction and traditional economic conservatives and business, whose first and only real priority is protection of private property laws, which they view as the very foundation of a capitalist society: if people can’t assert ownership of the very fruits of their own bodies, then what private property can ever be safe from government seizure?
The Republican party simply cannot survive as nothing but the Christian nationlist anti-"woke" party; ludicrously inept as their actual record is, their claimed wise stewardship of the economy is what their philosophical legitimacy has always rested upon.
Just one more wedge being driven into the Republican party by political hacks so inflexible that they’d rather be sucked under by a maelstrom of their own making than reach a sensible accommodation that would be embraced by a majority of voters. The minority party marginalizes itself yet again.
Will they go so far as to say sperm and ovum are protected and ban condoms? Oh yeah, they are working on that.
Yeah and they sure don’t care about any animal or plant life…kill um all is their motto there.
Hence anti environmental measures, anti animal cruelty, ok with the use of animals in labs and make fortunes off of destroying their habitats.
Did life really start when God was created by the Big Bang?
One should remember, if reading biblical text, that prophets always stood in opposition to the state, and that included the state "church", the priesthood. Jeremiah, and most other prophets often condemned the state, and its supporting religious institutions, for failure to treat the poor with justice, for enslaving immigrants, for killing their detractors, and for worshipping false gods that allowed the concentration of wealth. Jesus spent his time condemning the state, declaring a separation, "Give to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and give to God the things that are God's", and telling followers to care for the poor, heal the sick, open your hearts to the disabled and abused, and love your neighbor as yourself. I see zero of this in the Alabama decision, in our border policy, in the abortion restrictions, in our treatment of labor (children working in fast food or animal processing facilities), or in our unthinking support for the Israeli government's bombing of women and children in Gaza. What the Republicans want is to put the Pharisees in charge of the government's social policies. Sounds like an anti-prophetic stand to me.
Perfect!
Michael Hudson makes that point in his books.
Who needs the Islamic Taliban when we have the Christian Taliban?
The American Taliban who want the Institute the Christian Sharia laws into our constitution.
Yeah, that’s what it’s all about for these people. How are Christians being threatened? Is anyone trying to stop them from being spiritual in their own way? Is anyone forcing them to get an abortion? Is anyone forcing them to read a book that they don’t like? They have freedom of choice. They want to take freedom of choice from non Christians. Vote for democrats!!!
I have a friend who says, If you don’t believe in abortion, don’t get one. She’s a smart cookie.
The analogy breaks down in the limit, unfortunately: "if you don't believe in rape, don't get victimized" only goes so far (abortion may not be a matter of choice so much as clinical necessity - which is why arguing with someone who would have broadly granted rights taken away is so difficult, i.e. they're all too happy to gloss over the edge cases).
“According to a new survey from the Public Religion Research Institute and the Brookings Institution, more than half of Republicans believe the country should be a strictly Christian nation — either adhering to the ideals of Christian nationalism (21 percent) or sympathizing with those views (33 percent).”
On the bright side, the Republican Party has been shrinking over the last two decades and is now the third largest party behind Democrats, with independents as the largest party.
Interesting enough, Parker, the Chief Justice of Alabama is an adherent to New Apostolic Reformation (Seven Mountains Mandate). These people believe, like Johnson, that only God can be in charge of government. And that’s the least worrisome of their master plan.
Parker is also a believer in Christian Qanon Apocrypha, whose evangelical leader, Enlow (Christian influencer), believes he receives prophecies directly from god.
When the religious fanatics said that abortion is murder and a sin against god; it’s only the beginning.
IVF today, women’s contraceptives tomorrow, and it’s a slippery slope to The Handmaid’s Tale.
Oh, and Parker and all the rest of these apocrypha evangelicals are BIGLY supporters of Trump!
So be afraid, be very afraid!…:)
This idea they call god has no voice, no substance, no one has had a communication with it ever, but the number of Charlatans, including the Pope, use this idea called god as a sock puppet, so when Parker and Johnson declare that god should run the government, they mean they should run the government, because they use god as a sock puppet.
Lee, you understand, you really do understand.
Independents aren’t a party.
True, not an affiliated party, yet more people register as independent than any other party. Dems, republicans, green, libertarian, etc.
My point being that people are fleeing the party because they don’t believe in its policies and values anymore…:)
People register as independents because their neighbors will look up their party affiliation online to snoop. Believe me, it happens.
I’ve been a registered independent for 49 years, and have voted for Democrats up and down the ballot, across every election since. I’m also an advocate of Groucho’s maxim, “I refuse to join any club that would have me.”
Wow, interesting. A lot of sneaky a-holes out there…:)
Not so sneaky. They announce what they find to all their friends. It’s very much out in the open. I’ve heard housewives say they do this to figure out “who to hate”. I don’t see any advantage to registering with a political party, only danger.
People declare that they're independents to mask their true ideological affiliation. Or maybe to be able to vote for weak candidates in the party they dislike: political sabotage.
True! Some do, especially if they work in government and serve both administrations.
Although, I believe many leave because they no longer feel the party serves their interests. Both parties struggle, but let’s face it, republicans have definitely jumped into the abyss.
These religious fanatics are reckless, ruthless and completely in need of a Prozac the size of Texas….:)
and some are fed up with both Parties.
And that sloshing mishmash of Independents becomes the battleground, state by state, in the coming congressional and presidential elections.
Agreed…:)
... but many who intend to register as 'Independent' do, in fact register for a party i.e. the 'American Independent Party' (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Independent_Party); don't call it 'irony' if it's by design...
As a Christian, I am appalled by the completely unChristian statements of so many of these people who seem utterly ignorant of Jesus's teaching.
Just like they have their own interpretation of the Constitution which changes depending upon the situation, they have their own interpretation of the Bible.
Decades ago, we called them "buffet table Christians," who picked and chose what teaching's they were disposed to follow at any moment.
I had forgotten that description
That's because they're really not Christians they are criminals like their hero God tRump.
As a human sometimes capable of critical thinking, I'm appalled that people still believe in invisible sky fairies & demons, & teach their kids that the tooth fairy, the Easter Bunny, & Santa Claus are real.
Luke 6: 43-44
Don't take it personally: anyone you'd worry would be offended has long since been scared off...
= )
As a Christian minister, I am appalled that anyone in this country is trying to force Christianity and supposed "christian" principles on the people of this country. Each time I hear who is whining that this nation isn't Christian enough, I must groan because those people do not in any way embody what I would consider Christian principles. They lie, approve cheating if it gets them what they want while trying to claim it isn't cheating, and choose leaders who either have questionable backgrounds (Jordan, Gates, Greene, Trump, the judges in Alabama who want to push the 10 Commandments while they choose not to live by them), or spew hate of everyone who is not them. They want the government up in everyone's business but theirs. They have shaped Christianity to reflect their own personal biases, behaviors, likes and dislikes, fears, and hatreds. Lying has become their coin of the realm and they do it so often there is no sense of what is true when it comes to them. They may not even know themselves. There is nothing in Jesus's teachings that supports their attitudes, behavior, lying, faith being forced on others, and the rest of their Republican hypocrisy. If Jesus had been so opposed to homosexuality, for example, he would have said so since it was a regular part of life for people in the Roman Empire, of which Jesus was part. The same can be said of abortion. What I have noticed over the years, conservatives grab onto an issue they feel will get them attention, then wield it as a weapon to get others to give them power, money, or something else they want. We all should know that by now, but these fools keep popping up, claiming to be soooo Christian, coming up with "ideas" to make this a more Christian country. We the People need to stand against all their efforts with both feet planted in our democracy and our Constitution. The media needs to wake up and start calling out the Republicans for who they are: anti-American, anti-democracy, pseudo-christians. They do not care about any honest form of Christianity because Christianity has become their weapon of choice to gain undeserved power so they can make as much money as possible, continue to live their corrupt lives, and to do as much harm to anyone who does not go along with their BS as they can. We don't have to take that crap anymore and need to stand up to it. I get it that our Supreme Court has drunk the Republican Kool-Ade, so we may have to go around them, as Gov. Abbott has, only this time, to defend our rights and liberties from people for whom the Constitution is just a suggestion.
Everyone, keep your focus on November. We must win this election to stop the extreme Right and Christian Nationalists from being elected to any office. Their extremism borders on insanity.
Joe Bailey Cole, nots borders on insanity, is insanity. They are very insane.
The American Taliban, alive and well. Looks like the natural result of Jerry Falwell's Moral Majority movement that started in 1979.
They keep saying Man is made in God's image…….why does their god so often reflect their beliefs….the nature of god seems to change according to the band of followers talking.
You know, I have a sneaky suspicion the God is made in Man's Image!!
I have no doubt that this is true.
Bible is best read by reverses, got that from a rebbe. Man created god in his own image, not vice versa. Sumerians and Assyrians worshiped a wise fish god
This is why the Abrahamic religions refer to their god as a he. Does their god have male genitalia, is so for what purpose, to urinate and fornicate (fornicate with who).
If this god made man in his own image, then what does it eat, when does it sleep, and what does it defecate and urinate.
Questions we are not suppose to ask. Didn't this Jesus say come unto me as a child? That is credulous, guilible and ready to believe anything spoken by authority.
Truth!!
Bingo! You have won the top prize for good thinking and understanding.
Theocracy is tryrany justified and rationalized in sick minds by religious teachings that espouse hierarchy of human beings and a violent, vindictive, controlling, not loving, abusive God.
"You can use Religion in service of the truth or in service of the ego." They are using religion in service of their very violent egos who crave controlling, exploiting, harming, and feeling superior to others.