If Dominion wins the lawsuit then part of the settlement should specify that they make a statement of transparency about the aforementioned litigation they lost and why.
I agree. If they are found guilty in a trial OR if it doesn’t go to trial and is settled, part of the result must be that each of the hosts of Fox News must declare that they lied. It should be done on air, during their shows and should be done (at the very least), every show for 1 week.
Would that really make a difference to Fox viewers? Won't they just rationalize it, saying to themselves that an evil government made Fox submit, that Fox really told the truth, Liberals just don't like it?
I can't imagine a lot of Fox viewers admitting that they were fooled. Slowly, however, some of them may switch over to Newsmax and OAN and forget all about Fox. Admitting that you were hoodwinked is very embarrassing and difficult: You have to rethink your politics and be a big enough person, a real adult, to swallow that bitter medicine.
Fox viewers were just using Fox, because they liked the music they were playing. If the music stops, they'll just switch channels, not change their tastes in music. If most humans could admit errors and try to amend their ways, we'd have a very different history and future.
I wonder how many were harmed, or even killed by Fox misinformation? From Anti masking and distrust of medical experts during Covid along with bad advice and quackery promulgated by Fox 'hosts', to lies about election fraud that still cast a shadow over Democracy: harm has, and continues to be done. The air should be cleared. The truth should be told.
I would say the White Supremists are all over him based on his "OK" signage while posing with them. Considering that these groups are going mainstream it is possible. Frontlines reporting on WS and militia groups showed that these groups were moving there radicalism to the political arena and changing their verbiage to be less neo nazi and more dining room table. Hint its still WS talk only using euphamisms and allusions. Tucker Carlson is a prime "interpreter" for them and also interviewed "Mr" Rittenhouse.
a potential class action suit would put fox into bankruptcy reorganization.. the cost associated with the covid losses alone based on liability for misinformation in civil court, naming Donald J TrumPutin : co-defendant, could sink both of them ?
James Muncy:You are exactly right and I’ve been Saying this ever since the orange slime came Slithering down the escalator with his buy-a-wife. How could anybody be so stupid as to vote for this slime ?but they did, They liked his rhetoric and they’re not changing ,so forget even trying,It’s a waste of time.
Some fox viewers are older than dirt. Many are old white people. They probably never realized how scummy the network was. Many of them probably see themselves in tfg, or have husbands, brothers, sons, etc who are exactly like him. If so, then they would have difficulty being critical of tfg and his message, since it's what many of them have secretly believed all along.
J. Nol - it really has little to do with age. The people I hang out with, whether local or quite distance, are older, some very old, and all pretty darned smart. My impression of the typical Trumpie voter from seeing the people who go to see Trump live is that they range from their 20's to 50's, mid- to lower-income judging by their clothes. While it's true that there are gullible seniors all over the country, there are lots of seniors who aren't gullible and tend strongly Democratic, both capital D and lower-case d.
Tucker Carlson brings them to the radical bridge. Christian White Nationals and then they get further radicalised by militias, white supremists and religious groups. I dont think they started like that. Look at the branch dividian kooks they seemed like normal folks and Koresh STILL has sway on some of them. The radicalised start from diverse backgrounds and different reasons.
Betty, I forgot one thing on my post regarding him coming down the escalator. He also had his paid Gallery, who at that time probably thought it was fun. Kind of like a flash mob.
I too am "old" and remember tuning into one of Sean Hannity's early telecasts in 2009. On his show he interviewed Right Wing propagandist Ann Coulter. Ms. Coulter was discussing Bill Clinton, during which she made a comment about all of his "pinko commie" supporters. Hannity continued his interview without interruption, nor even a hesitation. He continued the interview and rhetorically asked why more people weren't following his show. I was so incensed by the things being spewed out of Ms. Coulter's mouth that I felt compelled to respond to Hannity's on-air question. So I sent him an email suggesting that he might find that he would gain viewers if he would avoid having guest that sounded like they still lived during the years of the Joe McCarthy hearings or in 1933 Germany. Boy, was I wrong. Needless to say it was obvious from the very beginning that Faux News was on a different trajectory than what I was proposing.
I voted for trump on the 2016 election. A lot of independents are flying away from him now as I did in 2020. Its not a complete waste. Perhaps with the MAGA millions no. With your average voter people are listening
Not a problem. If it ruins Fox, that’s part of the penalty. The sentence can’t include “convince your viewers you lied,” but it can include “admit you lied.”
Mandating that faux announce that they've been lying could b part of any settlement and it's probably the best option, unless newsmax and oan can be compelled to do the same. So why not try it? Nothing to lose. (Come to think of it, why not mandate good ole RUPERT make the announcement?) ANY announcement should be repeated frequently throughout the day for at least a week.
As with all things the decision whether to believe is their onus. I’m sure TFG will continue to have followers. However if FNC hadn’t played to his drumbeat from the beginning he might not have had the enthusiasm to start Newsmax. FOX just promulgated enthusiasm for his lies by continuing to follow him.
I wish it were possible, but they've had many years to realize the obvious; they like what they hear. They're seeking dominance and victory, not truth and fairness; and Fox delivers the goods or should I say the lies?
Raised a Christian, I tried for decades to forgive and believe the best about people. That faith was bogus, a fool's errand, a waste of time, and dangerous: Except for a thin veneer of civilization, too many of us are greedy, violent, selfish, or make trouble for the hell of it. We're great apes with big brains, animals with clothes on, another generation of vipers.
So watch your back, front, sides, above and below you. We've learned how to steal, for instance, using a piece of paper and a pen and how to kill one another in a thousand ways, including psychologically and spiritually. Fortunately, exceptions exist, that small group on the far right side of the bell-shaped curve. If you find such, make them your close friend. (At 74, I'm still looking.)
Jennifer, I agree that forcing a public disclosure on air on Fox of their bad behavior is what is right, but alas, the Fox cult is so sure their heroes: Carlson, Ingram, et al are practically gods, nothing they say, if they do, will change that and they will not hear anything that makes them look like the lying, gaslighting humans they are. They have already decided Trump is their deity, Trump won the 2020 election and those poor poor white people who have been charged for participating in the January 6th insurrection are really the heroes. I doubt any such announcement will even cut through the brainwash of anyone in the cult. That is sad for all of us.
Totally agree! U just can’t fix liars that easily! And the crazy cult viewers won’t admit they have been gaslighted even if their life depended upon it! Very sad for our Country! The anger in our society is so bold & terrifying, it keeps us home most of the time so we don’t confront it!
I agree. "If" it goes to trial, they can get an apology that would have to be published.
However, I vote "other," as usual.
I don't think the case will be tried. I assume the parties have been playing the game of "ladders," making each other offers. I don't know Delaware law, but in most jurisdictions, Fox can make an "offer of judgment" for a fixed amount, and if Dominion can not prove the amount of the formal offer, it can get stuck with paying Fox's fees and all costs, which are enormous. This is the ultimate inducement to settle.
Daniel Solomon : Where deaths and damage have happened along with threats to our actual rule of law and freedom have occurred, there should be no "game of ladders", or inducements to settle. Fox should go bankrupt! Those harmed should be able to file lawsuits of their own, or in class action. We have been at war against the wealthy greedheads, and are still at war! And will continue to be! Fox and others like it should not exist! Getting wealthier at the expense of the common good should not be allowed! It should be illegal and prosecutable! They MUST answer for their crimes!
I agree with Daniel. Rupert Murdoch will settle this out of court and do everything possible to bury the story. But I hope Dominion makes it VERY VERY expensive to do so!
I doubt that Dominion would agree on anything that would not make every single Fox talking head denounce their lies in an adequate way, and that's definitely more than a 30 seconds statement of "the court made me say this".
Ultimately I can't imagine Dominion settling on anything less than the court would award them, so that it'll be up to the court what Dominion will get other than the billions to repair damage, especially punishments for violating this decision?
Does it seem that Fox's goal is a SCOTUS review that will find Fox has a free speech right to say anything, and that right supercedes Dominion's defamation injury?
I'm sure that Fox has economists who have done a risk analysis. I'd expect the probability of that is extremely low. The risk of exposure for a high damage award at this moment has to be much higher. In terms of transactional analysis, that has to be Fox's WATNA.
Yes. The importance of this lawsuit is that it won't affect the beliefs of Fox's audience. Dominion wants to recover enough to recoup its business losses, take some pain and suffering money, and pay its attorneys and court costs. But Fox viewers won't change their religion one bit.
Daniel, your Question provides the Answer, thank you. Fox may be using economists but, Rupert is extra sharp on the bottom line. As to risk analysis, that's all licensed lawyering is all about, legal risk analysis. That's why I enjoyed going after banks. As a group banks are coldly logical --- settlement was always likely.
Martha, Fox is pretty sure of the current SC. Those SC conservatives care little for truth. Honesty is not part of what they want to hear or do anything about except shut it down. They don't want to be seen as being dishonest and unamerican, though, so they couch their crap in quoting white men dead longer ago than our nation has been in existence. I am sure they will find a way to give Fox everything it wants while making sure MSNBC and other non-right-wing entities would not have the same privilege. That is the level of their bad faith and how well the Right has padded the incomes of those conservative justices. It's disgusting!
It is still not a First Amendment case, because the government is not suing Fox. Free speech only implies protection against the government, not Dominion Voting, or you, or I.
There are many criminal cases finding bystanders to a murderous beating yelling ... "Yeah" ... "Get 'em" guilty. Also, criminal liability is possible for EMTs who say nothing while the arrested person is propped up against a car & bleeds to death.
The digital world expands faster than the fastest chip. On the civil side of cases such as in the Dominion case there are copious admissions by foxes that don't even pose as journalists, 🐺🐺🐺🐺🐺🐺.
Words, sentences, syntax, dialects & more have consequences some times deadly consequences, sometimes seditious consequences, sometimes commercial defamation consequences causing a manufactuer substantial money damages.
The Court always instructs jurors on the law. And, Judges always remind jurors that Counsel words are NOT evidence.
I disagree. What's important than the money is, in which way Fox will have to agree to not broadcasting future lies based on the defamation and the punishment for violating this agreement. This can't be reduced to any amount of money, even if it's a lot more than the purported $1.7 billion.
Progwoman ; fine the network into bankruptcy and forbid them to have any license to have a network! Jail the perps! If they can do it to John Q public, why not the very rich!
Of course, no court can make Fox stop lying altogether, but the first step would be to make them admit to the defaming lies and most of all to agree to not repeat those lies.
And this certainly will go with a penalty for violating this agreement which would then allow Dominion to sue Fox for any story based on the claim of wrongdoing by Dominion in the 2020 election, and then Fox would have to prove that it's actually new evidence.
So Fox will have to stop stories about fraud by Dominion.
Daniel, thanks for the reminder of how business suits often work. I can foresee no scenario in which Fox will have to change any of its practices. They pay some money to appease those they have harmed, and they continue as usual working to make sure anyone who challenges them will ultimately pay a big price for daring to try to stop them. This should not be permitted in our society, but it's the way things go now until we somehow demand better.
If Fox News loses the lawsuit, what will its leading advertisers (https://dropfox.com/advertisers/) do? My Pillow will certainly continue to advertise, since it is run by the right wing crazy Mike Lindell, but what about Progressive, GM, JP Morgan and others? If Fox News has to publicly admit they lied, why would these advertisers want to be associated with Fox News?
Tim Baldwin ; If it continues to be profitable, they may remain associated with Fox. But not all their customers are Fox viewers. Will be Interesting to see what happens, if anything. I suspect that it will affect them!
More than one statement, they need to start every program that they air with the statement that they lied to their audiences in order to make a larger profit, make them do that for a year to ensure that everyone that watches any of their programming is really clear about who they are, then we should deport the Murdochs and revoke their citizenship.
Totally agree with you and was thinking the same thing. In addition to that, the court should specify how long that statement must be made (I suggest a year), what programs it should precede (I say all, especially news and Carlson) and the court should dictate either the specific statement to make or its mandatory contents.
Have something like a statement like, “Fox News is not a true news organization, and the information presented in our shows and by our hosts are not to be taken as true. We are, and always have been, an entertainment organization, and any similarities between our shows and truth is purely coincidental. “
Not nearly strong enough. “We lied to you to enrich ourselves. Nothing we said about Dominion was true. We really think you are a bunch of ignorant hateful rubes, so we told you what you wanted to hear to keep you watching.”
Or something like that. Maybe someone can come up with a more direct statement.
Martha, I believe you’re correct in a general sense. However, this is a libel suit. By design, the standard for proving libel is very high in order to prevent muzzling the free press. To establish the existence of libel, the plaintiff has to show “malicious intent” - that a defendant knew that something was false and chose to broadcast/publish it anyway. How does one prove what someone knows, as opposed to what they simply believe? Normally that would be impossible. In this case, the discovery process unearthed troves of incontrovertible evidence that the entertainers and staff at Fox absolutely knew that not only trump lost the election, but that allegations of corrupted Dominion voting machines were false and the network chose to broadcast it anyway. Rupert Murdoch even admitted to all this in his testimony at his deposition. This is a rare case in which there is proof of what the defendant knew. The old Limbaugh “I’m just an entertainer” tactic won’t save them here.
I disagree on the strength of Murdoch's case. The section on FCC responsibility in this link has lots of evidence from Dominion's discovery to draw on in pursuit of punishing FNC. This is especially true where it mentions "substantial showing that reports were intended to mislead."
Maybe the financial damages will bankrupt Fox. Bad news for Murdoch this morning as it's now out that he was far more involved in this that he's been letting on.
Well, you know, now that the HALOGEN light has been shone of Fox's COMPLICIT INTERFERENCE IN FREE AND FAIR ELECTIONS, this is no longer merely a case of media lying--it's a case of electoral fraud. HELP! I NEED A LAWYER. Does this this case not imply the interference in a federal election by a propaganda organization. Is this not in some ways similar to the case before New York in which Trump's payoffs to McDougal and Stormy interference with the electorate's right to know the truth about a candidate. The "payoff" here is that Fox made money hand over fist for election interference. Is there nothing that can be done about this on a federal level. We may be in a position that we now have to change laws, but do we presently have NOTHING with which we can hold these people responsible for INCITING INSURRECTION, for example? Free speech has limits: You can scream "Fire!" in a crowded theater. Please, lawyers. Do we have nothing?
Fox News should not be allowed to call themselves Fox 'News'. The faces you see on Fox are not news reporters, they are entertainers, and entertainers can say and do anything!
They will say upfront and quickly "this is opinion" and continue to do what they've been doing because, if they don't, they will lose the base that keeps them going. The base LIKES the lies and exaggerations.
Lynn Bechdolt ; I imagine that not all Fox viewers like being misinformed. Especially the ones who lost loved ones during the height of Covid (or the nadir). Also, the ones who ended in jail for participating in Jan 6th. And those who were brainwashed to believe that the presidential election was really won by tfg.
"Winning" a lawsuit & "settlement" are two (2) entirely different possible outcomes. A "statement of transparency" is not a legal remedy in a US "tort" case of commercial defamation.
You may be thinking of a "declaratory judgment" which is a contract remedy.
Dominion is seeking money damages for breach of a civil duty Fox owes to Dominionn as a matter of law.
Rupert is a wily litigator who has survived a number UK tort cases where defamation is much more serious matter. When nailed in the Queen's Court, Rupert set up Lieutenant(s) take the fall as needed.
This subject will never leave our society until we make a decision as to what to do with it as a country, not a bunch of squabbling little municipalities some refer to as states. Our country works on the premise that the majority rules. OK, let's make that happen. Put the issue of abortion on the ballot as a national referendum. Let the people of our country voice their opinion once and for all. The majority will make their true feelings come to the surface for everyone to know and understand. I already know the outcome of such a vote, the minority position will just have to accept the results. After the idea of abortion has passed the states can then hash out the guidelines. It's such a huge problem for the entire country and the solution is so simple. Let the people say what they want.
Look, if that term applies, for those 'illegal' subliminals to be flashed. There'll be two--one admitting guilt (blue background) and the other denying it (red background) ..
If the court tries to impose a requirement for Fox to apologize or to broadcast their loss of the suit, it will be immediately appealed to SCOTUS on First Amendment grounds.
Joan ; that possibility is no reason not to try. The first amendment should not allow dangerous lies anyway. They undermine our Democracy, and harm the voters. There is no harmless lie.. who would defend lying for profit!? Someone with evil intent!
When Dominion wins this suit, Fox News must be designated as "entertainment" and have a crawl at the bottom of the screen announcing that no one should consider Fox News a credible source of information.
American's are being lied to. That happens in Russia, not here--until Fox news.
Most Fox viewers never change the channel. They don't know it's all a lie. The only way to break the cult like hold is to stop Fox News.
Fox has already admitted to being an entertainment network, not news. They should be forced to drop the "news" from their name, but since there is little that can be done to a cable network I doubt if this would happen.
Positivelypetpartners ; Fox News may have admitted to being an entertainment network. But it continues to send out propaganda that is harmful lies. It undermines faith in our elections. It continues to act like a news outlet with hosts that say things that are false to influence viewers that are addicted to the false narratives. The consumers almost need to be deprogrammed. like any victims of a cult mentality.
It is clear that FOX gives its viewers whatever it takes to boost audience. That is what dictates content. Don’t expect a Guilty verdict to change that policy. Don’t believe a court could alter that .
Kimberly, I would love to see Fox having to display its crimes constantly, but the challenge is that the true blue viewers will consider such reveals of the Fox lying spree, a plot against them. They cannot imagine how their beloved Tuckums (as Joy Reed of MSNBC calls Carlson) and Laura Ingram and Sean Hanity, et al could be dyssing them, lying to them, hurting them like that. It must be a "woke plot." They will not even check to see if maybe everyone else is right about Fox and most people see the Fox cult of viewers as pathetic closed-minded folks who care little or nothing for what is really true. Therefore, there would be no change. Alas!
The GOP has been in a battle for survival for 40 years now, as American demographics have shifted. For the last 10 years, it has been a battle to the death; GOP vs Democracy.
"An evil GOP enemy will burn his own nation to the ground .. just to rule over the ashes."
The problem with fascist organizations is that they try to obtain power through legitimate means, and then change the laws to allow them full control. It happened in 1920s Italy, 1933-35 Germany, and is still happening today (China’s law change to allow Xi another term, Putin in Russia, and fascist authoritarian regimes all over the world). We need to stand up and protect our democracy from these people.
Yes!! Exactly! And we need to do it UNIFIED! We Are the Guardrails is a group I have started to connect us and help make it easier to stand against the tide of corporate funded fascism. #WeAreTheGuardrails
I believe we should go on the offensive. Make them so scare not to come out from under their rocks for another hundred years! We have to do this stronger and in such a way--our children don’t have to do it for us!
My two cents: IMHO, most of you nailed it. As long as there’s big money to be made by selling lies, weaponizing Trump viciousness, and peddling conspiracy theories, Fox News will continue to do it. The network will appeal any verdict that goes against it, and even if it ultimately loses on the law it will negotiate damages lower than $1.6 billion — and quickly make it up in future revenue. Rupert Murdoch doesn’t give a fig about the public interest or even the opinion of most of the public as long as he can continue to inject profitable toxins into the brains of his viewers (and readers). And he has rounded up sufficiently venal and unprincipled hosts — Tucker Carlson et al — who will also sell dangerous lies as long as they make big bucks doing so.
Advertisers don’t care, either, as long as Fox News viewers continue to watch the network’s appalling content.
The basic question here is whether lawmakers are willing — and courts are willing to let them — impose any special responsibilities on cable networks, as they did with the old “fairness doctrine” as once applied to broadcasters who utilized the public spectrum. I doubt it.
Wish I could be more optimistic about this, but profiting off of dangerous lies has become a big business in America. This is one of the core challenges to the future of democracy.
Robert, when you weigh in on Office Hours, would you consider pinning it to the top so it’s more easily accessible? I was checking at least 3 or 4 times yesterday to see if you had commented yet. I finally found it today. Thanks for considering this.
In Canada, Canadian Radio-television Commission regulations prohibitive the publishing of false news. This regulation, on the books since the 1980's in Canada, would have resulted in the removal of licence from FOX news. In the US, opinion Trumps the truth.
Linda Leon ; We had a 'fairness doctrine' at one time, that ended when Ronald Reagan was in office. Things were not as corrupted with guardrails on the media. The internet escaped regulation with the notion that because it was privately owned, it was not subject to any such rules?
I’m obviously an optimist but I’m hoping that there will be a judgement beyond monetary payments that Fox News is required to admit to lying about the election on every show that claimed otherwise.
As for for compensation I hope there’s a hefty punitive penalty that will wipe out Rupert and his faux news empire.
Fox News is worth $16B...one judgment won't bankrupt the company, but it will make a dent. There is also the Smartmatic lawsuit, the lawsuit by the ex-Fox News producer, and the lawsuit by the Georgia election workers. Collectively, a significant impact is reasonably likely, though it still won't bankrupt the company (or likely impact many of its viewers).
He/they have plenty of money to burn… what about the other like right outlets? Are they telling the truth? Even the national enquirer is skewed as we just learned with the recent trump stuff..all seems to be geared at working class and low income folks that instead of realizing who’s actually screwing them want to churn hate with these guys.. I find giving Jared Kushner and team info on BIDEN’s commercials before they would air during his campaign so trumps team could whip something up is part of manipulating the vote .. Until we have accountability in journalism and the lies are punished as well as criminal laws that are beyond a slap on the wrist for knowingly lying at this scale and until all this dark money and lobbying will be illegal, nothing will change … but I do feel hopeful these days that it does seem, slowly, that justice will be served - just have to stay on track !
The liability for defamation is only one exposure for media selling fake news. IMHO they can be liable when people rely on their lies to commit violence. What about 1/6?
Thus far, there has been no evidence supporting the role of Fox in a seditious conspiracy to promote violence on 1/6. The judge in the Dominion case ruled in favor of Fox, severely limiting Dominion's ability to reference 1/6.
Not true. Doesn't have to be seditious conspiracy. The issue is whether they led people to believe in the big lie. Statute says aids and or gives comfort to insurrection. 18 U.S. Code § 2383 - Rebellion or insurrection
Whoever incites, sets on foot, assists, or engages in any rebellion or insurrection against the authority of the United States or the laws thereof, or gives aid or comfort thereto, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.
It would be exceedingly difficult to prove that Fox News' amplification of the big lie caused the insurrection without a smoking gun text or email. What seems obvious to a layman is not evidence in a court of law. If it were, we would have seen a class action against Fox News for assisting an insurrection.
I think there's a better case for assistance in obstructing an official proceeding of Congress or the fake electors' scheme (calls and texts between Hannity and Carlson with members of the Trump administration), but this too would be a difficult hill to climb, and issues of standing would be relevant.
Legal causation means "led to": so it doesn't have to be the main cause, the superseding cause. As long as it is a factor, joint and several liability.
I understand your argument, though standing alone would tend to mitigate against its success.
We'll see what additional suits are brought. An investor filed suit yesterday against Fox News and its Board, based on "stolen election claims" which led to multiple lawsuits and expected stock impact. This is one to watch.
hw ; professional rationalization and legalese seems to allow anything! What we have all seen and is as plain as day, may be clear only when an investor files suit because of "stolen election claims' which led to multiple lawsuits and expected stock impact. This is one to watch." Except investor losses.! Can't have that!
You can be working class and low income and still have the capacity to think & realize that what they are peddling is BS! They targeted low IQ and sadly, found they’d hit a treasure trove.
Hate it though I do, the problem with American democracy runs far deeper than Fox News. It starts with the education system. And that’s before we address the absurd notion that all aspects of the Constitution are sacrosanct.
My parents both went to city colleges and I believe they didnt pay tuition back then. In my era tuition was a big burdon. In todays era its the chains around our necks. If you are high school educated or less. Low pay. If your college educated higher pay and a big debt load. It stops the low income frkm going or finishing school. This money used to be provided by the federal and state governments. Now it goes to tax breaks for the rich. Low education here is caused by the assault of corporations and the rich on the tax system to benefit themselves.
If the right would call me a socialist for believing that the poorest amoungst us should have equal chances to move up in society (as per education) as the goldenest spooner then I will gladly be labeled such. We have soo many intelligent people in the ranks of the poor and trapping them in menial jobs and in pollution ridden neighborhoods takes a giant pool of talent and throws them in the garbage. I can guarantee you based on population that there are at least 100s of folks smarter than our "great" billionaire leaders out there whos only sin was being born without advantage.
Majority by votes counted, yes, but even then, not by a meaningful enough margin. The pop. vote doesn’t get you elected and with the rampant gerrymandering that’s been in play for so long, far more voters need to make their voices heard if govt. isn’t representing the will of the majority.
John Kerslake ; Yes, the popular vote is majorly compromised by the electoral College and, as you point out ; gerrymandering. Then there are the voter purges in places like Georgia. Long lines and wait times for not enough polling places. Limited drop boxes, or none at all.
Yes, what about the other outlets? Are the NYTimes and WaPo going to cover the gory details in how Fox News manipulates the truth, i.e. lies? To some extent they do the same thing. I've stopped reading MSMedia, count on our current host (thank you, Robert Reich) and others for news as unslanted as possible. Why aren't major news sources covering the Julian Assange case? He is a hero, exposed how our government (like all governments, thank you I.F. Stone) lie to suit their advertisers and protectors and how mainstream media covers up for them. Why isn't Wikileaks (and other sources that profited from real journalists who exposed government lies) now exposing our own attempts to lead us to nuclear war? Where is the coverage of the DOD? budget?
I applaud what Snowden did. What wikileaks did for the 2016 election, oh boy was that Russian interference. Now this latest leak which benefits...who Russia again? I am not a fan of Julian Assange. The only benefit of this latest leak I see is the spying on our allies. That needs to stop. The rest is meant to foster disunion in the fight against Russia. Perhaps in the future it will all come out that this is a Russia/US collusion to make the military industrial complex rich. That leak Id like to see.
As lying to their audience is part and parcel of the Murdochs' business model across brands (they do it in England too, they do it in Australia as well) they must continue to do it in the US. Predictably just a matter of time before they're caught once more. Perhaps Australia can call Rupert home?
I live in Australia and we don’t want Rupert or Lachlan back, thanks. All their press here promoted the former right wing PM in the last federal election, never challenging his many obvious lies. We Aussies saw through the obvious Murdoch press manipulation of the press and voted in a more progressive party and many independents as well. Unfortunately the average American voter is obviously more likely to see rhetoric as fact because of what they want to hear, without sufficient skepticism. I’ve even heard a Murdoch editorial on a sports team implying that the west probably doesn’t hear the truth about Putin. (Pro Putin) For the Murdochs it’s all about power over the people!! He wants authoritarian government in democratic countries. It’s so obvious!🤬
Russia seems more to their liking. Problem for them with Russia is that the government spreads the same kind of lies, propaganda & misinformation, so they won't have a competitive edge. But they do love Tucker in Russia.
True. Newsmax, OAN, Breitbart, Info Wars & many other right-wing organizations like that; but even the mainstream corporate networks are complicit. The vast majority of news media operates against progressive values & democracy.
Well, Dominion is the first of many in line..and a court will say they don’t have First Amendment protection for outright lying so they have to do the cost-benefit analysis. Should be interesting...
It’s not going away--we have to fight it back HARD! To force the roaches of Fascism back under their rocks. Fox News is part of an assault on Democracy. It’s not about money--it’s about Russia and Putin.
It's clear that Murdoch has consistently & persistently put on a propaganda campaign on behalf of corporatism & fascism throughout his career wherever he goes.
Yes, actually the national news was quoting from his deposition he made in the Dominion case...the same deposition in which he admitted that Trump’s claims of a stolen election was a lie. Unfortunately, something Fox viewers also will not see 😔
Their content will be dominated by pieces about the First Amendment being “under attack.” There will be no need to even mention Dominion. They will dredge up any story involving a gag order or hate speech prosecution they can find.
David Anderson ; as with the Second amendment, the first is misinterpreted. Maybe the mayhem will force a solution to the second before we are all killed, then the First can be properly recognized as a legitimate protection from those who would scream 'fire! In a crowded theater, or 'election fraud!' When someone like tRump loses his bid for re-election .
When they lose and are seen as more vulnerable to libel suits, they won't be able to afford to continue with their lying as usual. They will have to be more cautious, for example Reich's choice in the survey of separating fact from opinion. It depends on the amount of punitive damages whether they will consider libel suits as the cost of doing business or not.
The $billion dollar fine will, I fear be simply a cost of doing business for Fox.
The United States operates a two-tier system of “justice”. One that kills teenagers eating a sandwich in a car and another that provides comfort and never ending free passes to those the Attorney General deems to be “too powerful” or who are in, or are running for, elected office. So Fox will likely amp up its lying rhetoric and continue to black out any news of their complicity with Trump’s corruption and his attempted coup d’etat.
Unless the Fairness Doctrine is re-imposed on “news” organizations and we have a DOJ willing and able to actually enforce the law, the likes of Fox will continue to obtain free passes to poison the minds of millions.
William Joyce (“Lord Haw Haw”) was an Irish-American who broadcast from Germany (“Garmany Calling…Garmany calling) during WW2 lies and propaganda. He was captured by British troops, extradited to the UK for trial, found guilty of treason, and executed. What Fox does and has done to sow violent division in the US deserves no less a fate but at the very least a DOJ willing to hold “news” organizations accountable for the violence they promote and egg on through their lies. Fox, like many of its adherents in the GOP, hide behind the First Amendment or the “speech and debate” clause for Congress. Yet their speech is dishonest, indecent, designed to enflame violence and tear apart an entire nation. For what Fox has done and continues to do their broadcasters, executives and board must be held accountable and pay by losing ALL of their freedoms for the rest of their sordid lives.
I don’t imagine the outcome of the Dominion defamation lawsuit will have any meaningful impact on Fox, dare I say, News’ so-called bread and butter— namely to consolidate its orthodoxy into the official view of reality from which any deviation becomes unpatriotic heresy. Its viewers, an indoctrinated people fed only on partisan information and opinion that confirm their own bias, will continue, largely, to listen only to each other.
Laurie, As you note, to file a law suit, one must have judicial standing, that is one must show someone’s actions harmed them. Consolidating an orthodoxy into an official view of reality is not necessarily legally linked to actions that have caused harm.
Barbara Jo Krieger ; I am assuming that more harm will be done that will need to be adjudicated, since the behavior which is harmful will continue without "any meaningful impact on Fox".
Laurie, With all due respect, I would be remiss were I not to note that the quoted text was taken entirely out of context, therefore misrepresenting the meaning intended by my original text. Additionally, I would note that judicial standing (causal claims) typically are difficult to establish.
I’m thinking if, after there’s a settlement or win in Dominion’s favor, they go after each lying POS on the station personally for damages. Our nation cannot permit this fascist propaganda to have any place in our Democracy. Dissenters? Absolutely! Liars and snake oil salesman? Absolutely NOT!
I equate what FOX is doing as harmful as a judge telling the FDA that without any proof or scientific evidence that mifepristone should be pulled from the market because HE doesn’t like one of it uses. Putting the entire country at risk for unnecessary adverse health outcomes. Misinformation does kill.
If Dominion wins the lawsuit then part of the settlement should specify that they make a statement of transparency about the aforementioned litigation they lost and why.
I agree. If they are found guilty in a trial OR if it doesn’t go to trial and is settled, part of the result must be that each of the hosts of Fox News must declare that they lied. It should be done on air, during their shows and should be done (at the very least), every show for 1 week.
Would that really make a difference to Fox viewers? Won't they just rationalize it, saying to themselves that an evil government made Fox submit, that Fox really told the truth, Liberals just don't like it?
I can't imagine a lot of Fox viewers admitting that they were fooled. Slowly, however, some of them may switch over to Newsmax and OAN and forget all about Fox. Admitting that you were hoodwinked is very embarrassing and difficult: You have to rethink your politics and be a big enough person, a real adult, to swallow that bitter medicine.
Fox viewers were just using Fox, because they liked the music they were playing. If the music stops, they'll just switch channels, not change their tastes in music. If most humans could admit errors and try to amend their ways, we'd have a very different history and future.
I wonder how many were harmed, or even killed by Fox misinformation? From Anti masking and distrust of medical experts during Covid along with bad advice and quackery promulgated by Fox 'hosts', to lies about election fraud that still cast a shadow over Democracy: harm has, and continues to be done. The air should be cleared. The truth should be told.
New or novel tort claims can make new & needed tort law changes but, those new issues are not raised by Dominion. Yes, misinformation does & can kill.
Not just that, but the amount of money that was made because of those lies.
Would Kyle Rittenhouse havd done what he did without all the "Antifa" themed reporting Fox did for BLM protests.
Bill Reitz : I wonder if the wingers are still trying to groom him as a right wing operative?
I would say the White Supremists are all over him based on his "OK" signage while posing with them. Considering that these groups are going mainstream it is possible. Frontlines reporting on WS and militia groups showed that these groups were moving there radicalism to the political arena and changing their verbiage to be less neo nazi and more dining room table. Hint its still WS talk only using euphamisms and allusions. Tucker Carlson is a prime "interpreter" for them and also interviewed "Mr" Rittenhouse.
a potential class action suit would put fox into bankruptcy reorganization.. the cost associated with the covid losses alone based on liability for misinformation in civil court, naming Donald J TrumPutin : co-defendant, could sink both of them ?
stephen murphy ; If only!
Millions have been harmed or killed by their business practices.
No doubts about that.
James Muncy:You are exactly right and I’ve been Saying this ever since the orange slime came Slithering down the escalator with his buy-a-wife. How could anybody be so stupid as to vote for this slime ?but they did, They liked his rhetoric and they’re not changing ,so forget even trying,It’s a waste of time.
All because of ignorance. I’m older and knew what that scum was from day one. I can’t believe how stupid Americans are now. So sad!
Some fox viewers are older than dirt. Many are old white people. They probably never realized how scummy the network was. Many of them probably see themselves in tfg, or have husbands, brothers, sons, etc who are exactly like him. If so, then they would have difficulty being critical of tfg and his message, since it's what many of them have secretly believed all along.
J. Nol - it really has little to do with age. The people I hang out with, whether local or quite distance, are older, some very old, and all pretty darned smart. My impression of the typical Trumpie voter from seeing the people who go to see Trump live is that they range from their 20's to 50's, mid- to lower-income judging by their clothes. While it's true that there are gullible seniors all over the country, there are lots of seniors who aren't gullible and tend strongly Democratic, both capital D and lower-case d.
Tucker Carlson brings them to the radical bridge. Christian White Nationals and then they get further radicalised by militias, white supremists and religious groups. I dont think they started like that. Look at the branch dividian kooks they seemed like normal folks and Koresh STILL has sway on some of them. The radicalised start from diverse backgrounds and different reasons.
J.Nol, don’t forget that age-old Saying: “the apples don’t fall too far from the trees”.
Betty, I forgot one thing on my post regarding him coming down the escalator. He also had his paid Gallery, who at that time probably thought it was fun. Kind of like a flash mob.
I'm old and I agree it was obvious from the beginning that Fox "News" was nothing but a huge Right Wing propaganda machine.
I too am "old" and remember tuning into one of Sean Hannity's early telecasts in 2009. On his show he interviewed Right Wing propagandist Ann Coulter. Ms. Coulter was discussing Bill Clinton, during which she made a comment about all of his "pinko commie" supporters. Hannity continued his interview without interruption, nor even a hesitation. He continued the interview and rhetorically asked why more people weren't following his show. I was so incensed by the things being spewed out of Ms. Coulter's mouth that I felt compelled to respond to Hannity's on-air question. So I sent him an email suggesting that he might find that he would gain viewers if he would avoid having guest that sounded like they still lived during the years of the Joe McCarthy hearings or in 1933 Germany. Boy, was I wrong. Needless to say it was obvious from the very beginning that Faux News was on a different trajectory than what I was proposing.
I voted for trump on the 2016 election. A lot of independents are flying away from him now as I did in 2020. Its not a complete waste. Perhaps with the MAGA millions no. With your average voter people are listening
Not a problem. If it ruins Fox, that’s part of the penalty. The sentence can’t include “convince your viewers you lied,” but it can include “admit you lied.”
Mandating that faux announce that they've been lying could b part of any settlement and it's probably the best option, unless newsmax and oan can be compelled to do the same. So why not try it? Nothing to lose. (Come to think of it, why not mandate good ole RUPERT make the announcement?) ANY announcement should be repeated frequently throughout the day for at least a week.
Pony up Scott Peck’s book “People of the Lie” on evil and the lust for deception.
As with all things the decision whether to believe is their onus. I’m sure TFG will continue to have followers. However if FNC hadn’t played to his drumbeat from the beginning he might not have had the enthusiasm to start Newsmax. FOX just promulgated enthusiasm for his lies by continuing to follow him.
James Muncy ; So don't even try to inform them about being lied to? 🙄
I'm throwing in the towel early, avoiding the rush. No way these people are going to change their Alt-Right mindsets. They'd rather die.
Then OAN or the other mini FAWKS "news" networks will absorb the viewers until THEY TOO go bankrupt.
If they are effectively and efficiently managed, they should remain afloat because tens of millions of Americans like their message.
James Muncy, You're probably right about most Fox viewers, but I can't help but believe that some of them will hear it and step back.
I wish it were possible, but they've had many years to realize the obvious; they like what they hear. They're seeking dominance and victory, not truth and fairness; and Fox delivers the goods or should I say the lies?
Raised a Christian, I tried for decades to forgive and believe the best about people. That faith was bogus, a fool's errand, a waste of time, and dangerous: Except for a thin veneer of civilization, too many of us are greedy, violent, selfish, or make trouble for the hell of it. We're great apes with big brains, animals with clothes on, another generation of vipers.
So watch your back, front, sides, above and below you. We've learned how to steal, for instance, using a piece of paper and a pen and how to kill one another in a thousand ways, including psychologically and spiritually. Fortunately, exceptions exist, that small group on the far right side of the bell-shaped curve. If you find such, make them your close friend. (At 74, I'm still looking.)
And Fox should be forced to change its name to Fox Entertainment, or Fox Propaganda, or some such name to indicate its true purpose.
Or Fox Lies
Jennifer, I agree that forcing a public disclosure on air on Fox of their bad behavior is what is right, but alas, the Fox cult is so sure their heroes: Carlson, Ingram, et al are practically gods, nothing they say, if they do, will change that and they will not hear anything that makes them look like the lying, gaslighting humans they are. They have already decided Trump is their deity, Trump won the 2020 election and those poor poor white people who have been charged for participating in the January 6th insurrection are really the heroes. I doubt any such announcement will even cut through the brainwash of anyone in the cult. That is sad for all of us.
Totally agree! U just can’t fix liars that easily! And the crazy cult viewers won’t admit they have been gaslighted even if their life depended upon it! Very sad for our Country! The anger in our society is so bold & terrifying, it keeps us home most of the time so we don’t confront it!
I commented before seeing your post, but I agree with you wholeheartedly.
It would be interesting to watch them choke out the truth. I’ll bet that would stick in their throats unlike the lies that flow like a river.
-- not that anything they are required to admit at this point is going to help.
Much longer than 1 week!
I agree. "If" it goes to trial, they can get an apology that would have to be published.
However, I vote "other," as usual.
I don't think the case will be tried. I assume the parties have been playing the game of "ladders," making each other offers. I don't know Delaware law, but in most jurisdictions, Fox can make an "offer of judgment" for a fixed amount, and if Dominion can not prove the amount of the formal offer, it can get stuck with paying Fox's fees and all costs, which are enormous. This is the ultimate inducement to settle.
Fox just settled another defamation case. https://www.nytimes.com/2023/04/09/business/fox-news-venezuela-dominion.html
Besides Dominion, Smartmatic’s NY suit seeks at least $2.7 billion in damages.
I assume Fox has been working on all of these cases simultaneously.
Daniel Solomon : Where deaths and damage have happened along with threats to our actual rule of law and freedom have occurred, there should be no "game of ladders", or inducements to settle. Fox should go bankrupt! Those harmed should be able to file lawsuits of their own, or in class action. We have been at war against the wealthy greedheads, and are still at war! And will continue to be! Fox and others like it should not exist! Getting wealthier at the expense of the common good should not be allowed! It should be illegal and prosecutable! They MUST answer for their crimes!
Blair:
“They MUST answer for their crimes!”
O ! I do agree!
In a perfect world this would not be happening.
Since we are in this world we must keep seeking the world we envision. The curve of truth is ascending. I believe.
I agree with Daniel. Rupert Murdoch will settle this out of court and do everything possible to bury the story. But I hope Dominion makes it VERY VERY expensive to do so!
I doubt that Dominion would agree on anything that would not make every single Fox talking head denounce their lies in an adequate way, and that's definitely more than a 30 seconds statement of "the court made me say this".
Ultimately I can't imagine Dominion settling on anything less than the court would award them, so that it'll be up to the court what Dominion will get other than the billions to repair damage, especially punishments for violating this decision?
Does it seem that Fox's goal is a SCOTUS review that will find Fox has a free speech right to say anything, and that right supercedes Dominion's defamation injury?
You mean 1st Amendment right to lie?
I'm sure that Fox has economists who have done a risk analysis. I'd expect the probability of that is extremely low. The risk of exposure for a high damage award at this moment has to be much higher. In terms of transactional analysis, that has to be Fox's WATNA.
Yes. The importance of this lawsuit is that it won't affect the beliefs of Fox's audience. Dominion wants to recover enough to recoup its business losses, take some pain and suffering money, and pay its attorneys and court costs. But Fox viewers won't change their religion one bit.
Sad, but probably true
Daniel, your Question provides the Answer, thank you. Fox may be using economists but, Rupert is extra sharp on the bottom line. As to risk analysis, that's all licensed lawyering is all about, legal risk analysis. That's why I enjoyed going after banks. As a group banks are coldly logical --- settlement was always likely.
Didn't the late Antonin Scalia rule that lying is protected speech?
Martha, Fox is pretty sure of the current SC. Those SC conservatives care little for truth. Honesty is not part of what they want to hear or do anything about except shut it down. They don't want to be seen as being dishonest and unamerican, though, so they couch their crap in quoting white men dead longer ago than our nation has been in existence. I am sure they will find a way to give Fox everything it wants while making sure MSNBC and other non-right-wing entities would not have the same privilege. That is the level of their bad faith and how well the Right has padded the incomes of those conservative justices. It's disgusting!
Ruth, this isn't going to the Supreme Court and it is NOT a slam dunk for Dominion.
This matter is NOT a first amendment defense case. Other law applies i.e. New York v Sulllivan & its progeny.
Alas, it is a free speech case - https://fortune.com/2023/04/12/are-journalists-allowed-to-lie-fox-news-rupert-murdoch-standards/
It is still not a First Amendment case, because the government is not suing Fox. Free speech only implies protection against the government, not Dominion Voting, or you, or I.
There are many criminal cases finding bystanders to a murderous beating yelling ... "Yeah" ... "Get 'em" guilty. Also, criminal liability is possible for EMTs who say nothing while the arrested person is propped up against a car & bleeds to death.
The digital world expands faster than the fastest chip. On the civil side of cases such as in the Dominion case there are copious admissions by foxes that don't even pose as journalists, 🐺🐺🐺🐺🐺🐺.
Words, sentences, syntax, dialects & more have consequences some times deadly consequences, sometimes seditious consequences, sometimes commercial defamation consequences causing a manufactuer substantial money damages.
The Court always instructs jurors on the law. And, Judges always remind jurors that Counsel words are NOT evidence.
Has the jury reached a verdict?
Excellent question I never thought about it going to SCOTUS.
I disagree. What's important than the money is, in which way Fox will have to agree to not broadcasting future lies based on the defamation and the punishment for violating this agreement. This can't be reduced to any amount of money, even if it's a lot more than the purported $1.7 billion.
How could a court force a network not to lie in the future?
Progwoman ; fine the network into bankruptcy and forbid them to have any license to have a network! Jail the perps! If they can do it to John Q public, why not the very rich!
Yes Laurie, bankrupt their chaos creating lies and propaganda network! Boot them to Russia because they sure don’t belong in the United States!
Nope. https://fortune.com/2023/04/12/are-journalists-allowed-to-lie-fox-news-rupert-murdoch-standards/.
Nope. https://fortune.com/2023/04/12/are-journalists-allowed-to-lie-fox-news-rupert-murdoch-standards/
Of course, no court can make Fox stop lying altogether, but the first step would be to make them admit to the defaming lies and most of all to agree to not repeat those lies.
And this certainly will go with a penalty for violating this agreement which would then allow Dominion to sue Fox for any story based on the claim of wrongdoing by Dominion in the 2020 election, and then Fox would have to prove that it's actually new evidence.
So Fox will have to stop stories about fraud by Dominion.
Can't be done. Here: https://fortune.com/2023/04/12/are-journalists-allowed-to-lie-fox-news-rupert-murdoch-standards/
Daniel, thanks for the reminder of how business suits often work. I can foresee no scenario in which Fox will have to change any of its practices. They pay some money to appease those they have harmed, and they continue as usual working to make sure anyone who challenges them will ultimately pay a big price for daring to try to stop them. This should not be permitted in our society, but it's the way things go now until we somehow demand better.
You assume correctly Daniel.
If Fox News loses the lawsuit, what will its leading advertisers (https://dropfox.com/advertisers/) do? My Pillow will certainly continue to advertise, since it is run by the right wing crazy Mike Lindell, but what about Progressive, GM, JP Morgan and others? If Fox News has to publicly admit they lied, why would these advertisers want to be associated with Fox News?
Because Fox viewers are their bread and butter.
Tim Baldwin ; If it continues to be profitable, they may remain associated with Fox. But not all their customers are Fox viewers. Will be Interesting to see what happens, if anything. I suspect that it will affect them!
More than one statement, they need to start every program that they air with the statement that they lied to their audiences in order to make a larger profit, make them do that for a year to ensure that everyone that watches any of their programming is really clear about who they are, then we should deport the Murdochs and revoke their citizenship.
Totally agree with you and was thinking the same thing. In addition to that, the court should specify how long that statement must be made (I suggest a year), what programs it should precede (I say all, especially news and Carlson) and the court should dictate either the specific statement to make or its mandatory contents.
Have something like a statement like, “Fox News is not a true news organization, and the information presented in our shows and by our hosts are not to be taken as true. We are, and always have been, an entertainment organization, and any similarities between our shows and truth is purely coincidental. “
Not nearly strong enough. “We lied to you to enrich ourselves. Nothing we said about Dominion was true. We really think you are a bunch of ignorant hateful rubes, so we told you what you wanted to hear to keep you watching.”
Or something like that. Maybe someone can come up with a more direct statement.
Although I doubt they would agree to run it, I agree completely with this draft statement.
Not going to happen. Murdoch has a very strong case that there are no requirements for journalists to tell the truth. https://fortune.com/2023/04/12/are-journalists-allowed-to-lie-fox-news-rupert-murdoch-standards/
Martha, I believe you’re correct in a general sense. However, this is a libel suit. By design, the standard for proving libel is very high in order to prevent muzzling the free press. To establish the existence of libel, the plaintiff has to show “malicious intent” - that a defendant knew that something was false and chose to broadcast/publish it anyway. How does one prove what someone knows, as opposed to what they simply believe? Normally that would be impossible. In this case, the discovery process unearthed troves of incontrovertible evidence that the entertainers and staff at Fox absolutely knew that not only trump lost the election, but that allegations of corrupted Dominion voting machines were false and the network chose to broadcast it anyway. Rupert Murdoch even admitted to all this in his testimony at his deposition. This is a rare case in which there is proof of what the defendant knew. The old Limbaugh “I’m just an entertainer” tactic won’t save them here.
@David, Rupert Murdoch is having his attorneys claim on the record that Fox has a free speech right to do that which will benefit the for-profit corporation. Karma being the bitch she is woke up and https://www.nbcnews.com/media/rupert-murdoch-fox-corp-board-members-sued-investor-stolen-election-cl-rcna79267
I disagree on the strength of Murdoch's case. The section on FCC responsibility in this link has lots of evidence from Dominion's discovery to draw on in pursuit of punishing FNC. This is especially true where it mentions "substantial showing that reports were intended to mislead."
https://www.fcc.gov/broadcast-news-distortion
However, I'm no lawyer and I readily admit that vengeance drives my interpretation of what I've referenced.
Maybe the financial damages will bankrupt Fox. Bad news for Murdoch this morning as it's now out that he was far more involved in this that he's been letting on.
But good news for Murdoch: https://fortune.com/2023/04/12/are-journalists-allowed-to-lie-fox-news-rupert-murdoch-standards/
Well, you know, now that the HALOGEN light has been shone of Fox's COMPLICIT INTERFERENCE IN FREE AND FAIR ELECTIONS, this is no longer merely a case of media lying--it's a case of electoral fraud. HELP! I NEED A LAWYER. Does this this case not imply the interference in a federal election by a propaganda organization. Is this not in some ways similar to the case before New York in which Trump's payoffs to McDougal and Stormy interference with the electorate's right to know the truth about a candidate. The "payoff" here is that Fox made money hand over fist for election interference. Is there nothing that can be done about this on a federal level. We may be in a position that we now have to change laws, but do we presently have NOTHING with which we can hold these people responsible for INCITING INSURRECTION, for example? Free speech has limits: You can scream "Fire!" in a crowded theater. Please, lawyers. Do we have nothing?
Thanks, Martha.
Fox News should not be allowed to call themselves Fox 'News'. The faces you see on Fox are not news reporters, they are entertainers, and entertainers can say and do anything!
They will say upfront and quickly "this is opinion" and continue to do what they've been doing because, if they don't, they will lose the base that keeps them going. The base LIKES the lies and exaggerations.
Lynn Bechdolt ; I imagine that not all Fox viewers like being misinformed. Especially the ones who lost loved ones during the height of Covid (or the nadir). Also, the ones who ended in jail for participating in Jan 6th. And those who were brainwashed to believe that the presidential election was really won by tfg.
And be forced to remove the word “news” from their name, since they will be shown not to be a true news organization.
"Winning" a lawsuit & "settlement" are two (2) entirely different possible outcomes. A "statement of transparency" is not a legal remedy in a US "tort" case of commercial defamation.
You may be thinking of a "declaratory judgment" which is a contract remedy.
Dominion is seeking money damages for breach of a civil duty Fox owes to Dominionn as a matter of law.
Rupert is a wily litigator who has survived a number UK tort cases where defamation is much more serious matter. When nailed in the Queen's Court, Rupert set up Lieutenant(s) take the fall as needed.
Abortion, again!
Donald Hodgins <silencenotbad@gmail.com>
1:36 PM (0 minutes ago)
to Thomas, carol, Barbara, Marilyn
This subject will never leave our society until we make a decision as to what to do with it as a country, not a bunch of squabbling little municipalities some refer to as states. Our country works on the premise that the majority rules. OK, let's make that happen. Put the issue of abortion on the ballot as a national referendum. Let the people of our country voice their opinion once and for all. The majority will make their true feelings come to the surface for everyone to know and understand. I already know the outcome of such a vote, the minority position will just have to accept the results. After the idea of abortion has passed the states can then hash out the guidelines. It's such a huge problem for the entire country and the solution is so simple. Let the people say what they want.
I wish! I wish! I WISH!🤞
Look, if that term applies, for those 'illegal' subliminals to be flashed. There'll be two--one admitting guilt (blue background) and the other denying it (red background) ..
Hope so
Never say never ever again. With respect to the truth.
If the court tries to impose a requirement for Fox to apologize or to broadcast their loss of the suit, it will be immediately appealed to SCOTUS on First Amendment grounds.
Joan ; that possibility is no reason not to try. The first amendment should not allow dangerous lies anyway. They undermine our Democracy, and harm the voters. There is no harmless lie.. who would defend lying for profit!? Someone with evil intent!
When Dominion wins this suit, Fox News must be designated as "entertainment" and have a crawl at the bottom of the screen announcing that no one should consider Fox News a credible source of information.
American's are being lied to. That happens in Russia, not here--until Fox news.
Most Fox viewers never change the channel. They don't know it's all a lie. The only way to break the cult like hold is to stop Fox News.
Fox has already admitted to being an entertainment network, not news. They should be forced to drop the "news" from their name, but since there is little that can be done to a cable network I doubt if this would happen.
They admitted it in court. Most of their viewers--and customers--don’t know that.
Positivelypetpartners ; Fox News may have admitted to being an entertainment network. But it continues to send out propaganda that is harmful lies. It undermines faith in our elections. It continues to act like a news outlet with hosts that say things that are false to influence viewers that are addicted to the false narratives. The consumers almost need to be deprogrammed. like any victims of a cult mentality.
Yes and the courts would need to be able to have enough power to shut fox down. That is the only way its going to get the message.
Amen
It is clear that FOX gives its viewers whatever it takes to boost audience. That is what dictates content. Don’t expect a Guilty verdict to change that policy. Don’t believe a court could alter that .
Kimberly, I would love to see Fox having to display its crimes constantly, but the challenge is that the true blue viewers will consider such reveals of the Fox lying spree, a plot against them. They cannot imagine how their beloved Tuckums (as Joy Reed of MSNBC calls Carlson) and Laura Ingram and Sean Hanity, et al could be dyssing them, lying to them, hurting them like that. It must be a "woke plot." They will not even check to see if maybe everyone else is right about Fox and most people see the Fox cult of viewers as pathetic closed-minded folks who care little or nothing for what is really true. Therefore, there would be no change. Alas!
The GOP has been in a battle for survival for 40 years now, as American demographics have shifted. For the last 10 years, it has been a battle to the death; GOP vs Democracy.
"An evil GOP enemy will burn his own nation to the ground .. just to rule over the ashes."
- Sun Tzu
William, it’s true. And since they can’t win with politics they are trying to win with fascist propaganda.
The problem with fascist organizations is that they try to obtain power through legitimate means, and then change the laws to allow them full control. It happened in 1920s Italy, 1933-35 Germany, and is still happening today (China’s law change to allow Xi another term, Putin in Russia, and fascist authoritarian regimes all over the world). We need to stand up and protect our democracy from these people.
Yes!! Exactly! And we need to do it UNIFIED! We Are the Guardrails is a group I have started to connect us and help make it easier to stand against the tide of corporate funded fascism. #WeAreTheGuardrails
Who will join me?
They are desperate, floundering. We must keep our cool.
I believe we should go on the offensive. Make them so scare not to come out from under their rocks for another hundred years! We have to do this stronger and in such a way--our children don’t have to do it for us!
My two cents: IMHO, most of you nailed it. As long as there’s big money to be made by selling lies, weaponizing Trump viciousness, and peddling conspiracy theories, Fox News will continue to do it. The network will appeal any verdict that goes against it, and even if it ultimately loses on the law it will negotiate damages lower than $1.6 billion — and quickly make it up in future revenue. Rupert Murdoch doesn’t give a fig about the public interest or even the opinion of most of the public as long as he can continue to inject profitable toxins into the brains of his viewers (and readers). And he has rounded up sufficiently venal and unprincipled hosts — Tucker Carlson et al — who will also sell dangerous lies as long as they make big bucks doing so.
Advertisers don’t care, either, as long as Fox News viewers continue to watch the network’s appalling content.
The basic question here is whether lawmakers are willing — and courts are willing to let them — impose any special responsibilities on cable networks, as they did with the old “fairness doctrine” as once applied to broadcasters who utilized the public spectrum. I doubt it.
Wish I could be more optimistic about this, but profiting off of dangerous lies has become a big business in America. This is one of the core challenges to the future of democracy.
RR
Robert, when you weigh in on Office Hours, would you consider pinning it to the top so it’s more easily accessible? I was checking at least 3 or 4 times yesterday to see if you had commented yet. I finally found it today. Thanks for considering this.
In Canada, Canadian Radio-television Commission regulations prohibitive the publishing of false news. This regulation, on the books since the 1980's in Canada, would have resulted in the removal of licence from FOX news. In the US, opinion Trumps the truth.
And that’s why we have a trump. Because they are using our Democracy to break Democracy.
Exactly!
Linda Leon ; We had a 'fairness doctrine' at one time, that ended when Ronald Reagan was in office. Things were not as corrupted with guardrails on the media. The internet escaped regulation with the notion that because it was privately owned, it was not subject to any such rules?
Fox cable is not a broadcast medium, not covered by the FCC rules.
Different countries. Different rules and regulations.
I’m obviously an optimist but I’m hoping that there will be a judgement beyond monetary payments that Fox News is required to admit to lying about the election on every show that claimed otherwise.
As for for compensation I hope there’s a hefty punitive penalty that will wipe out Rupert and his faux news empire.
But as I said, I’m an optimist.
Fox News is worth $16B...one judgment won't bankrupt the company, but it will make a dent. There is also the Smartmatic lawsuit, the lawsuit by the ex-Fox News producer, and the lawsuit by the Georgia election workers. Collectively, a significant impact is reasonably likely, though it still won't bankrupt the company (or likely impact many of its viewers).
He/they have plenty of money to burn… what about the other like right outlets? Are they telling the truth? Even the national enquirer is skewed as we just learned with the recent trump stuff..all seems to be geared at working class and low income folks that instead of realizing who’s actually screwing them want to churn hate with these guys.. I find giving Jared Kushner and team info on BIDEN’s commercials before they would air during his campaign so trumps team could whip something up is part of manipulating the vote .. Until we have accountability in journalism and the lies are punished as well as criminal laws that are beyond a slap on the wrist for knowingly lying at this scale and until all this dark money and lobbying will be illegal, nothing will change … but I do feel hopeful these days that it does seem, slowly, that justice will be served - just have to stay on track !
"Even" the Enquirer. Always the worst.
The liability for defamation is only one exposure for media selling fake news. IMHO they can be liable when people rely on their lies to commit violence. What about 1/6?
Thus far, there has been no evidence supporting the role of Fox in a seditious conspiracy to promote violence on 1/6. The judge in the Dominion case ruled in favor of Fox, severely limiting Dominion's ability to reference 1/6.
Not true. Doesn't have to be seditious conspiracy. The issue is whether they led people to believe in the big lie. Statute says aids and or gives comfort to insurrection. 18 U.S. Code § 2383 - Rebellion or insurrection
Whoever incites, sets on foot, assists, or engages in any rebellion or insurrection against the authority of the United States or the laws thereof, or gives aid or comfort thereto, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.
(June 25, 1948, ch. 645, 62 Stat. 808; Pub. L. 103–322, title XXXIII, § 330016(1)(L), Sept. 13, 1994, 108 Stat. 2147.)
Defendants in the civil suits will also add Fox to lay off some of their exposure for damages.
It would be exceedingly difficult to prove that Fox News' amplification of the big lie caused the insurrection without a smoking gun text or email. What seems obvious to a layman is not evidence in a court of law. If it were, we would have seen a class action against Fox News for assisting an insurrection.
I think there's a better case for assistance in obstructing an official proceeding of Congress or the fake electors' scheme (calls and texts between Hannity and Carlson with members of the Trump administration), but this too would be a difficult hill to climb, and issues of standing would be relevant.
Legal causation means "led to": so it doesn't have to be the main cause, the superseding cause. As long as it is a factor, joint and several liability.
I understand your argument, though standing alone would tend to mitigate against its success.
We'll see what additional suits are brought. An investor filed suit yesterday against Fox News and its Board, based on "stolen election claims" which led to multiple lawsuits and expected stock impact. This is one to watch.
hw ; bullshit!
I've no idea who you are or what you're responding to, but I fail to see any facts or cogent arguments in your 1-word response.
hw ; professional rationalization and legalese seems to allow anything! What we have all seen and is as plain as day, may be clear only when an investor files suit because of "stolen election claims' which led to multiple lawsuits and expected stock impact. This is one to watch." Except investor losses.! Can't have that!
You can be working class and low income and still have the capacity to think & realize that what they are peddling is BS! They targeted low IQ and sadly, found they’d hit a treasure trove.
Hate it though I do, the problem with American democracy runs far deeper than Fox News. It starts with the education system. And that’s before we address the absurd notion that all aspects of the Constitution are sacrosanct.
My parents both went to city colleges and I believe they didnt pay tuition back then. In my era tuition was a big burdon. In todays era its the chains around our necks. If you are high school educated or less. Low pay. If your college educated higher pay and a big debt load. It stops the low income frkm going or finishing school. This money used to be provided by the federal and state governments. Now it goes to tax breaks for the rich. Low education here is caused by the assault of corporations and the rich on the tax system to benefit themselves.
“This money used to be provided by the federal and state governments.” Cue the cries of ‘Socialist hordes are at the gates!’
Neither myself (nor, I’m sure, Bob Reich) would disagree with you. Corp. America is raping American society.
If the right would call me a socialist for believing that the poorest amoungst us should have equal chances to move up in society (as per education) as the goldenest spooner then I will gladly be labeled such. We have soo many intelligent people in the ranks of the poor and trapping them in menial jobs and in pollution ridden neighborhoods takes a giant pool of talent and throws them in the garbage. I can guarantee you based on population that there are at least 100s of folks smarter than our "great" billionaire leaders out there whos only sin was being born without advantage.
John Kerslake ; In spite of misinformation and weaknesses in education the majority of voters have shown that they know better.
Majority by votes counted, yes, but even then, not by a meaningful enough margin. The pop. vote doesn’t get you elected and with the rampant gerrymandering that’s been in play for so long, far more voters need to make their voices heard if govt. isn’t representing the will of the majority.
John Kerslake ; Yes, the popular vote is majorly compromised by the electoral College and, as you point out ; gerrymandering. Then there are the voter purges in places like Georgia. Long lines and wait times for not enough polling places. Limited drop boxes, or none at all.
100%
Yes, what about the other outlets? Are the NYTimes and WaPo going to cover the gory details in how Fox News manipulates the truth, i.e. lies? To some extent they do the same thing. I've stopped reading MSMedia, count on our current host (thank you, Robert Reich) and others for news as unslanted as possible. Why aren't major news sources covering the Julian Assange case? He is a hero, exposed how our government (like all governments, thank you I.F. Stone) lie to suit their advertisers and protectors and how mainstream media covers up for them. Why isn't Wikileaks (and other sources that profited from real journalists who exposed government lies) now exposing our own attempts to lead us to nuclear war? Where is the coverage of the DOD? budget?
The present leak reminds me of Wikileaks.
I applaud what Snowden did. What wikileaks did for the 2016 election, oh boy was that Russian interference. Now this latest leak which benefits...who Russia again? I am not a fan of Julian Assange. The only benefit of this latest leak I see is the spying on our allies. That needs to stop. The rest is meant to foster disunion in the fight against Russia. Perhaps in the future it will all come out that this is a Russia/US collusion to make the military industrial complex rich. That leak Id like to see.
As lying to their audience is part and parcel of the Murdochs' business model across brands (they do it in England too, they do it in Australia as well) they must continue to do it in the US. Predictably just a matter of time before they're caught once more. Perhaps Australia can call Rupert home?
I live in Australia and we don’t want Rupert or Lachlan back, thanks. All their press here promoted the former right wing PM in the last federal election, never challenging his many obvious lies. We Aussies saw through the obvious Murdoch press manipulation of the press and voted in a more progressive party and many independents as well. Unfortunately the average American voter is obviously more likely to see rhetoric as fact because of what they want to hear, without sufficient skepticism. I’ve even heard a Murdoch editorial on a sports team implying that the west probably doesn’t hear the truth about Putin. (Pro Putin) For the Murdochs it’s all about power over the people!! He wants authoritarian government in democratic countries. It’s so obvious!🤬
People are vulnerable to propaganda no matter where they live. We are more susceptible than we think.
As a US citizen that is an accurate assessment.
Will you take him back if he's gift wrapped in a box?
How about in a prison box with the Hannibal Lector getup?
Russia seems more to their liking. Problem for them with Russia is that the government spreads the same kind of lies, propaganda & misinformation, so they won't have a competitive edge. But they do love Tucker in Russia.
Is it too naive to think it will slowly slither away because ‘it is not about red or blue--it is about green’?
The way the Murdochs see it is that there is way more green on the stupid side.....and the right will spend way more $$ than the left to cultivate it.
They have been proven correct in that assessment. It has been a crucial factor in Trump's political success as it is, too.
Jaime Ramirez ; Then there is the media even outside the murdoch's empire.
True. Newsmax, OAN, Breitbart, Info Wars & many other right-wing organizations like that; but even the mainstream corporate networks are complicit. The vast majority of news media operates against progressive values & democracy.
Jaime Ramirez ; it's all about the Benjamins, (or the billions of dollars).
Well, Dominion is the first of many in line..and a court will say they don’t have First Amendment protection for outright lying so they have to do the cost-benefit analysis. Should be interesting...
It’s not going away--we have to fight it back HARD! To force the roaches of Fascism back under their rocks. Fox News is part of an assault on Democracy. It’s not about money--it’s about Russia and Putin.
Sorry, I disagree. I was quoting from Rupert Murdoch--the gentleman who owns Fox.
It's clear that Murdoch has consistently & persistently put on a propaganda campaign on behalf of corporatism & fascism throughout his career wherever he goes.
Do you think you may have misspoken? I can think of many words to describe Rupert Murdoch. "Gentleman" doesn't come to mind.
Call me old fashioned, but I think we should keep things formal..don’t want to sink to their level 😉
Jean L ; Rupert Murdoch made that statement on National News. I don't know how many Fox viewers caught it, but some may have.
Yes, actually the national news was quoting from his deposition he made in the Dominion case...the same deposition in which he admitted that Trump’s claims of a stolen election was a lie. Unfortunately, something Fox viewers also will not see 😔
Jean L ; that is where I saw it, and I think there is a chance that some Fox viewers may see it or have seen it.
I’ve been calling them #PoxNews for decades because
Fox News is a
Pox on humanity
Spewing crafted lies
Through a tool named Hannity
A decade from now, let’s hope there will be conversations like this:
“My brother told me there used to be this network called Fox. That’s where the Simpsons came from!”
Their content will be dominated by pieces about the First Amendment being “under attack.” There will be no need to even mention Dominion. They will dredge up any story involving a gag order or hate speech prosecution they can find.
David Anderson ; as with the Second amendment, the first is misinterpreted. Maybe the mayhem will force a solution to the second before we are all killed, then the First can be properly recognized as a legitimate protection from those who would scream 'fire! In a crowded theater, or 'election fraud!' When someone like tRump loses his bid for re-election .
I Hope they are subject to huge punitive damages. Money is the only language Murdoch listens
When they lose and are seen as more vulnerable to libel suits, they won't be able to afford to continue with their lying as usual. They will have to be more cautious, for example Reich's choice in the survey of separating fact from opinion. It depends on the amount of punitive damages whether they will consider libel suits as the cost of doing business or not.
Fine them into non-existence!!!!
The $billion dollar fine will, I fear be simply a cost of doing business for Fox.
The United States operates a two-tier system of “justice”. One that kills teenagers eating a sandwich in a car and another that provides comfort and never ending free passes to those the Attorney General deems to be “too powerful” or who are in, or are running for, elected office. So Fox will likely amp up its lying rhetoric and continue to black out any news of their complicity with Trump’s corruption and his attempted coup d’etat.
Unless the Fairness Doctrine is re-imposed on “news” organizations and we have a DOJ willing and able to actually enforce the law, the likes of Fox will continue to obtain free passes to poison the minds of millions.
William Joyce (“Lord Haw Haw”) was an Irish-American who broadcast from Germany (“Garmany Calling…Garmany calling) during WW2 lies and propaganda. He was captured by British troops, extradited to the UK for trial, found guilty of treason, and executed. What Fox does and has done to sow violent division in the US deserves no less a fate but at the very least a DOJ willing to hold “news” organizations accountable for the violence they promote and egg on through their lies. Fox, like many of its adherents in the GOP, hide behind the First Amendment or the “speech and debate” clause for Congress. Yet their speech is dishonest, indecent, designed to enflame violence and tear apart an entire nation. For what Fox has done and continues to do their broadcasters, executives and board must be held accountable and pay by losing ALL of their freedoms for the rest of their sordid lives.
Hopefully Fox News will be required to air the truth about this issue. Otherwise I will assume it will be business as usual at fox news.
I don’t imagine the outcome of the Dominion defamation lawsuit will have any meaningful impact on Fox, dare I say, News’ so-called bread and butter— namely to consolidate its orthodoxy into the official view of reality from which any deviation becomes unpatriotic heresy. Its viewers, an indoctrinated people fed only on partisan information and opinion that confirm their own bias, will continue, largely, to listen only to each other.
Barbara Jo Krieger; Then there can be more lawsuits to redress more harms done, with more fines etc, ad nauseam!,
Laurie, As you note, to file a law suit, one must have judicial standing, that is one must show someone’s actions harmed them. Consolidating an orthodoxy into an official view of reality is not necessarily legally linked to actions that have caused harm.
Barbara Jo Krieger ; I am assuming that more harm will be done that will need to be adjudicated, since the behavior which is harmful will continue without "any meaningful impact on Fox".
Laurie, With all due respect, I would be remiss were I not to note that the quoted text was taken entirely out of context, therefore misrepresenting the meaning intended by my original text. Additionally, I would note that judicial standing (causal claims) typically are difficult to establish.
My prediction?
Fox Rues their hosts' behavior
Fox Hews to the Court's penalties
Fox Views diminish … SLOWLY
Fox Sues their own hosts for damages
Fox Dues get paid to the public. Finally.
I’m thinking if, after there’s a settlement or win in Dominion’s favor, they go after each lying POS on the station personally for damages. Our nation cannot permit this fascist propaganda to have any place in our Democracy. Dissenters? Absolutely! Liars and snake oil salesman? Absolutely NOT!
I equate what FOX is doing as harmful as a judge telling the FDA that without any proof or scientific evidence that mifepristone should be pulled from the market because HE doesn’t like one of it uses. Putting the entire country at risk for unnecessary adverse health outcomes. Misinformation does kill.