I'm just getting the hang of this, so I'm not sure exactly how to respond to all these many good and thoughtful messages. Let me start by restating something I just wrote in response to Theorem, who provides a particularly thoughtful explanation of why they're not going to be vaccinated. My point is that Theorem doesn't quite fully assess risk. The fact is, getting vaccinated greatly reduces the risk that you'll get the virus. As a result, if you're vaccinated you're far less likely to infect others than if you remain unvaccinated.
So in reality, getting vaccinated does protect others, and remaining unvaccinated increases the risk that others will become infected.
One other thing that's very important to keep in mind: This virus keeps mutating. The more human bodies it can infect, the more likely it will eventually mutate into a new form that resists the vaccines we have available. So every person who decides they don't want to be vaccinated is not only raising the risk to others of being infected directly, but also indirectly raising the risks of other human beings on the planet that the virus will mutate in ways that are more difficult (or impossible) to stop.
I appreciate this may be a tough call for Theorem and for others.
This reminds me so much of the early days of the AIDS crisis, when so many men refused to wear condoms, against all the evidence that unprotected sex was killing people, because it was their body, their right. However, in the case of AIDS, one had to have sex with someone HIV positive (or share needles) to contract HIV. Now all we have to do is inhale someone else’s aerosols. The fact that 1 in 500 US residents have perished from this disease should be a sobering enough truth to turn one’s mind toward vaccination—we are, in fact, interdependent, and therefore responsible for each other’s well being.
Folks, I have to go tend to a few other things right now, so that has to be all for today. Thanks for your very thoughtful comments and questions. Hope this newsletter and these chats continue to be useful to you. I'm enjoying them a great deal.
I think we're looking at it wrong. The problem isn't that there are people who don't want to get vaccinated. That's their right. It is, after all, a free country. Their body, their choice as we say. But their rights don't exist in a vacuum. With rights come responsibilities: we pay for the benefits of living in a society by giving up a small part of the freedom that we value. We have a responsibility to the larger society that gives us our rights and protects our freedoms. And that means we owe an obligation to the larger society.
So if people don't want to get vaccinated, they give up their right to be among society and to avail themselves of the benefits of living in the larger society. So, they can refuse to vaccinate, but then they need to stay home. They need to work remotely (or find a different job where they can do that). They need to have their food and other things delivered to their home so they don't have to go out. They need to stay away from restaurants, bars, theaters, bowling alleys, etc, and yes, even church. Because we need to get our economy back up and moving again. That's the socially responsible thing that needs to happen. And those of us who have spent the last year and a half following all the rules, wearing masks, and getting vaccinated (even when it made us more than a little nervous) and fulfilling our obligation to the larger society, deserve to get our lives back to normal. And most importantly, non-vaxxers need to recognize that by choosing their freedom not to get vaccinated, they have waived their right to be treated by our medical system. So they have to choose: they can have their freedom, or they can have the benefits of society. One or the other, but not both.
Renee, you put your finger on what's so difficult and important about this debate, particularly in the United States -- where we tend to define freedom as the right to do exactly what we want to do for ourselves regardless of its effects on anyone else. We do have social responsibilities. That's what a society is all about -- what we owe others as members of it. If someone isn't willing to take on particular responsibilities (such as getting vaccinated, wearing a mask, and so on), then it follows that, as you suggest, that person has to take on a different set of responsibilities in order to maintain the safety and security of the community. Think, by analogy, of the nation during World War II, when every young man had to be drafted (and possibly face the ultimate sacrifice), or, if he had personal objections to the war, had to do public service in another way.
I agree. And so I think that we need to move the conversation away from whether or not people have the right/freedom to refuse to be vaccinated (and consequently what arguments we should make to convince them, or how we should deal with our friends/ family/neighbors/coworkers who refuse) and start talking about the consequences of their choices.
But the only thing Hobbes got Right was the social contract; Understand his sentiment though, but shouldn’t give up. Cornell West said don’t have any illusions while maintaining your hope
Right on! My co-chaplain, who lives in North Carolina, is herself suffering so hard right now, because so many non-COVID patients are dying. Their very large hospital is beyond out of beds, with nonvaxed COVID patients overrunning the facility. And the families of these nonvaxed patients are threatening doctors and nurses because they believe COVID is a hoax and don’t want their loved ones treated for it. In this tragic climate, *everyone* loses.
My experience has been that those that are reticent to be vaccinated cite a variety of reasons, often picking and choosing whichever one is convenient in the moment. I had never expected that FDA approval would stop the Know-Nothings from characterizing the vaccines as "experimental", but it is still deeply frustrating nonetheless.
Mat, I don't think they're "know-nothings." One of my neighbors here is highly educated and still won't be vaccinated. She explained to me yesterday that she doesn't trust Big Pharma and she doesn't trust the government. I understand her distrust. What I don't understand is her unwillingness to look at the data.
I know of several, from one friend to strangers I meet. Most compelling is what my ER doctor son is going through. Hospital beds filled with non-vaxed TX and OK deniers ("I don't have COVID), otherwise turning away from ER and admittance residents. "Mom, it doesn't have to be this way....They are all assholes...I want to tell them to go home a die." This from my ever so kind and patience and dedicated 32 year old son!
Cynthia, I hear much the same very often from people who have been vaccinated -- anger and outrage at those who still refuse to be vaccinated. I get it. But there's so much division and anger already in the land that I'd like to explore other ways of responding, ways that might be more useful. Hence, today's discussion.
Good topic to devote time to listing specifics, including what is acceptable or necessary “violence.” We still can get it done by voting, I hope, but fear time is very short. Voting solution means educating and organizing. The next flood/extinction, and another go around (evolution) is also an option that would be chosen by not choosing right
I work for a 40-person professional services firm in the Bay Area owned by three people. The entire firm, save one of the owners, is vaxed. A number of people have had discussions about the science behind COVID-19 and the vaccines with the owner, to no avail. Last week a number of us sent him emails detailing how he’s not the “leader” we thought he was as a result of his stance. Implicit in our emails was a questioning of his judgment as a leader. His response was pretty defensive, but I think the implications have hit home—his ego is bruised (he has publicly espoused “servant leadership” in the past; we pointed out that championing his own rights versus the good of the whole is antithetical to what he claims to value. We’ll see what comes of this. (He was working in the office the day we sent our emails, and we noticed that he left to WFH after he received them….)
Joren, sounds like you and your colleagues might have landed on a useful way to "manage upward" and change the behavior of the owner of your firm. I continue to be impressed at how many employees these days are managing upward.
You’re welcome to your opinion, and to feeling sorry for me. It changes nothing in my life, nor in the lives of those I’m responsible for…. Having said that, you don’t have any clue as to the tone of our emails, the commitment to show respect to him, or the tone of his original message email that spurred ours. (Did you know that if said owner transmitted COVID to any of his workers, his company would be subjected to a CalOSHA investigation and an increase in workers comp insurance? We could be fined thousands of dollars, which isn’t nothing for a small business.)
Honestly, I didn’t sign up for Professor Reich’s newsletter to engage on this level. I haven’t read your last comment, and won’t, because your line of “reasoning”‘isn’t generative. It’s troll-like. I’m sad that even spaces such as this aren’t immune to nonproductive inputs. I guess I’ll have to unsubscribe.
I'm sorry...I didn't want to go this deep either. It's just that I go on the defensive when people go on the offensive about the unvaccinated. If I can delete my comments, I will.
Joren, We are here for an important conversation and we all know who and what Robert stands for. This person is just here to bring garbage to the community. You are informative and helpful. Ignore this type of topic with these type of people. Unsubscribing is giving her reason to continuously bring her nonsense to this platform. People like her will be weeded out. Thank you for your input! I think you should stay.
A sales clerk told me she hadn't been vaccinated because of all the deaths the vaccine has caused. When I asked where she'd learned about the deaths, she replied, "The Simpsons." I wish I was joking.
Richard, I'm sure you're not joking. These days, people get their "facts" from the strangest places. I'm old enough to remember when people like Edward R. Murrow and Walter Cronkite were trusted to provide news and facts to all Americans. We've lost that trust, and we've paying a large price for that loss.
My ninth grade teacher in the Second Nixon term era lamented to us that “it says something when you trust Walter Cronkite more than your politicians.” What have we been doing since then, and still?!
just fyi--- the one who seems to know the most on Afghanistan, Taliban, etc. is Lara Logan! And since she left CBS in 2018 seems to have moved right... See her interviews before 2018 on YouTube and now she is on Fox of all places!
Here in rabid red Sarasota, Florida, one of the red jewels in the DeathSantis empire, I ignored the horse dewormer and other cures and got my third Pfizer shot this afternoon at my local Walgreens. That went in the left arm; the right got my flu shot and overall I received a hands-on assurance that there are islands of sanity even here in Variant Land.
Strange interaction at the neighborhood small pharmacy my husband and I go to for vaccines: The boosters just became available here in Oregon and hubs and I needed to get the flu shot too. We visited this (really) small pharmacy to get both shots.
While we were waiting, an older, obviously not-in-great-health woman came in to pick up her prescriptions. She had a bad case of kyphosis, seemed weak, and needed to wait for her Lyft ride back home. Another couple came in for the flu and booster. She and this new couple started chatting and the subject of the booster came up - her first reaction was, "Hey I'm not getting that thing!" She seemed like a strong anti-vaxxer.
The couple exchanged a pointed glance with us. Her next reaction was, "Well, next time I'm in, the driver won't wait."
This seemed so obviously a case of social pressure - her home life was anti-vax. When she discovered the people in the pharmacy were pro-vax she changed her mind.
I imagine quite a few unvaccinated folks out there socialize or live with anti-vaxxers and just don't feel like they can challenge their immediate social circle.
I think what we need are some ads with people talking about how they changed their minds about getting the vaccine and how their world didn't come crashing down or how they stood up to social pressure or how it's okay to admit that you're wrong.
One of the most significant drivers of social behavior is fear of being discovered that you were conned. Not actually getting conned, but the embarrassment of having others know that you were conned.
I am not vaxxed yet, I am 48 years old, and active (not obese). If I get the virus, I have a 1 in 5000 chance that I will die from it, I view this as a low risk. I am nervous about potential side effects from the vaccine that have yet to be discovered or reported -- long term side affects cannot be understood by anyone because the vaccine is still in clinical trials (although I do understand one of them is FDA approved). Plus this has been heavily politicized by the left for reasons that I can only guess. I do not think I am putting anyone at risk by not taking the vaccine and I am very tired of this issue being so politicized by the left. You take the vaccine to protect yourself, *not to protect other people*. The idea that someone that is not vaxxed is being selfish is completely ridiculous. Every adult in the United States has been offered the vaccine at this point. If you want to take the vaccine, great, you are protected. If you get the virus, your body will have the antibodies to fight off the virus. If you don't want to take it, that is fine also, that is a risk you are willing to take. But whether you have the vaccine or not, you can still get the virus, you can spread it to others, and you can still be hospitalized. ~30% of people hospitalized are fully vaccinated -- I am not sure how we still call these "breakthrough" cases. It comes down to: Does the vaccine work or doesn't it? If it works, then you are protected, and why should you care of someone doesn't take it? *You're protected* If it doesn't work, then why is there so much pressure for people to take a vaccine that does not work? This thinking is Orwellian double-think. Both positions cannot be true at the same time!
Let me start a bit early today, because there are so many good comments and questions. This one from Theorem is particularly interesting to me, and represents probably the most thoughtful expression of the view against taking the vaccine. I hear you, Theorem, but I think you make a mistake that may be getting in the way of your thinking about this. It's all about risk. The fact is, getting vaccinated greatly reduces the risk that you'll get the virus. As a result, if you're vaccinated you're far less likely to infect others than if you remain unvaccinated. So in reality, getting vaccinated does protect others, and remaining unvaccinated increases the risk that others will become infected. One other thing that's very important to keep in mind: This virus keeps mutating. The more human bodies it can infect, the more likely it will eventually mutate into a new form that resists the vaccines we have available. So every person who decides they don't want to be vaccinated is not only raising the risk to others of being infected directly, but also indirectly raising the risks of other human beings on the planet that the virus will mutate in ways that are more difficult (or impossible) to stop.
I appreciate this may be a tough call for you and for others. Hope this is helpful.
My understanding of being vaccinated from researching many studies that I find by looking in Google scholar at the journals and peer reviewed papers, is that the one main factor is most all brands of covid-19 vaccines help prevent severe illness and hospitalization from around 91 to 97%. And as far as prevention of getting covid-19, it seems to have a higher percentage from contracting the virus after the vaccine and diminishes over time. From what i remember for instance, in Isreal, their health ministry around June to July stated that the pfizer was about 39% efficacy on the delta variant. And they were one of the first countries to really vaccinate their population. Everyone is going to eventually get covid-19 so ask yourself these two questions, when you get covid-19, are you willing to take the chance that you are going to be physically strong enough to not become hospitalized and if not, can you or your family afford the bill after or if you come out of the hospital? The same type of question you should be asking yourself when you overindulge by eating too much, have unprotected sex, stand on top of a ladder or any other unhealthy, unsafe things humans do.
Shit happens, though. You can’t know exactly even if you’re in tiptop shape. That’s the whole point. We must acknowledge that we can only go on odds, and what looks like the best thing for everyone. Israel may not be the same as the US, too. I haven’t seen evidence that things will go the same if people get vaccinated here. Look at Vermont or whatever. All this “overindulge” stuff might be judgmental, but I don’t want to be judgmental by saying that.
Hi Robert, I appreciate the comments and your reply. Thank you for the discussion, I appreciate it. Respectfully, I disagree with you that I am the one getting in the way of my own thoughts. A few points:
You said, "Getting vaccinated greatly reduces the risk that you'll get the virus," why can't the discussion end there? Any adult can get the vaccine now. Those that do not have the vaccine understand the situation and are choosing to take this risk, for whatever reason.
Then you said, "you're far less likely to infect others if you remain unvaccinated." So, the "others" you are talking about are the *unvaccinated* who have already actively decided to take on this risk. To my point, they are *not* putting vaccinated people at risk because, as you have stated, "Getting vaccinated greatly reduces the risk that you'll get the virus."
So, respectfully, which is it? Vaccinated people are protected or aren't they? If they are protected, then why should they care if vaccinated people get sick when they actively decide to take on this risk? They are the only ones at risk, right? If the vaccinated are not protected, then why push a vaccine that is not effective? Or course, both things cannot be true at the same time.
"I do not think I am putting anyone at risk by not taking the vaccine and I am very tired of this issue being so politicized by the left." This is demonstrably untrue. There is no such thing as a 100% protective vaccine and you run the risk of threatening people with a breakthrough infection, as well as providing an opportunity for the virus to mutate into a variant which the vaccines will not protect against. Try and understand that this isn't about you.
The notion "work or doesn't work" is an incorrect way to think about vaccines. Vaccines offer protection to a greater or lesser degree depending on your exposure and your own physical health. You can still get the flu with a flu vaccine, measles with a measles vaccine; you won't get as sick. So *of course* the vaccine works.
-- hospitalizations of people with Covid have taxed our health care workers to the max. They are tired and burned out. Many have quit or are thinking of quitting (https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2021/04/22/health-workers-covid-quit/). These are people quitting their *careers* not some casual job.
-- hospitalizations of people with Covid have made getting emergency services difficult or impossible. You have only to read about ICU beds being occupied by unvaxxed Covid sickies. My sister in law had a serious stroke last month - she was treated in the freekin' HALLWAY of the hospital because there were no ICU beds left. Did she die prematurely because her care was compromised? We'll never know for sure but we do know it couldn't have helped.
-- the virus mutates. Each mutation carries the possibility of a new version of Covid that might be too elusive for the vaccine. Delta is an obvious example
We should all be masking and social distancing. The infection comes from the vaccinated if it’s up in your mouth or nose, where it’s not as effective as, most crucially, it is in your lungs.
I have an immune condition caused by cancer treatment. I have been vaccinated, and have received my booster. Despite that, per antibody testing, I do not demonstrate any antibodies to COVID-19. Research is still underway to determine what that means for me, and for people like me - and in the meantime, we are all at risk from people like yourself who believe that "You take the vaccine to protect yourself, *not to protect other people*". You take the vaccine to protect yourself, yes, but also those who cannot be vaccinated - such as those under 12, those with immune conditions, and those who cannot be vaccinated due to medical issues, as well as to aid in restricting the spread of the disease, which is the only way to gain any control over this pandemic. It's not all about you.
Getting vaccinated greatly reduces your chances of getting the virus, making it far less likely that you'll infect others -- this is one way in which it protects others. It also helps in a global effort to reduce the virus's likelihood of mutating into a more devastating disease.
This is incomplete. You also take the vaccine in order to slow the spread of the virus. The virus mutates quickly in an unvaccinated population. Each mutation has the potential to be more lethal (e.g. Delta variant). Each mutation has the potential to bypass the effects of the vaccine.
They do better than in the non-vaccinated. It’s not either-or. It’s odds. But everyone should mask and social distance. The likelihood that anti-vaxxers do this is just lower I think due to politics and lack of understanding that if the mask protects 80% it really helps on a state, National, or global scale.
I also think taking the vaccine is helping yourself in another way. Getting rid of the virus is a huge benefit to every single person, including you. We are all sick (some literally) of this thing and want it gone, out of economic as well as social grief and anxiety. ?
It's Science. The vaccine works; they're the most concentrated. Try reading actual Science and not politicized press or social media. Your "1 in 5000" percentage is incorrect. Go watch the video about pants-no-pants-urine-spatter video if you don't believe actual science.
I think it might be about how you look at data. If you’re thinking in an Orwellian way, suspicious and whatnot, you’ll find reasons not to take the vaccine. But what the government is actually trying to do, from my more trusting perspective, is save lives and end the virus. They are doing what is humanly possible. If you look at how many deaths there would be if every state had the same vaccination rate as the most vaccinated states vs what exists (I saw a NYT graphic the other day), you can see that tens of thousands of lives would be spared. People are frustrated because they don’t know how to convey this, but really mainly care about saving lives! Real lives, not fictional or mythic.
At this point I'm not handling their refusal very well. I don't speak out about it, except an occasional rebuttal to a boldly false claim about the dangers of this particular vaccine. I'm angry as hell overall, because I don't want to keep living this way; not able to gather, hug, stand close to one another without worrying that I'll either catch this virus or worse yet--give it to someone because I may be asymptomatic. Overall I see this as proof that in America we live in a SELFISH society, where people don't think of others. And the freedom bs drives me crazy!
Sherry, as I've said in some of these replies, "freedom" is a slippery concept because it so easily slides into selfishness. You write of a "selfish society." I don't think human beings can form a society based on selfishness. It's not a society. It's just a bunch of people pursuing their own personal interests who happen to be living within the same borders. That sort of "society" is hugely vulnerable to all sorts of problems, as we're witnessing now.
It's a very simple answer...not one! They were looking forward to it!...but then there is a very important difference, I'm not in the US...I'm in Spain! Likewise, I have family in Ireland, and again, the answer is not one even considered not getting vaccinated!
I can only guess that people in the US are so angry with big pharma (the opioid crisis comes to mind) that they think this vaccine is designed just to make another few billion, and the truth is I agree that big pharma are a bunch of crooks (from whom the government should clawback windfall profits afterwards ). but do I think they manufactured this situation to make a buck?...absolutely not!
I agree about Big Pharma. And I could go on about the FDA (do you know they just reclassified the supplement N-acetyl cysteine as a drug, so it’s banned from OTC sales, because clinical trials have found it super effective against the inflammatory response to COVID? Who benefits, I wonder?) but reality is complex and requires a systems-thinking approach to help sort out what will serve the greater good. I wish so hard that systems thinking were a mandatory part of high school education. Then perhaps we’d not be in the mess we find ourselves in….
Hi Noel - apparently the Irish are the best in Europe, something like 90% vaccinated. But it could be a residue of obedience to authority, from the church - or it could be that the Irish are very quick to recognise when a disease is too deadly to ignore, perhaps from the experience with tuberculosis which was fairly endemic in that damp climate.
We are over 90% single or fully dosed! I believe the success of the campaign is simply down to common sense. I can't fathom anti-vaxxers at all. (Now that said, Ireland has a prominent anti-vax campaigner)...As to reverence/obedience to the church, that died on a cross about 20 years ago. I just think we come together in a time of need. I remember Foot and Mouth disease in the early 2000s, again, every university, shop, etc, had disinfectant mats, and all walking in the country was banned, (Many would have remembered the Foot and Mouth outbreak in 1967 so they knew how serious it was.)
My mom refused to get vaccinated because she thought that the vaccine had been rushed through clinical trials and didn’t want to be a “Guinea pig”. Even the fact that neither of my children could be vaccinated because of their young age and that she would be protecting them by getting vaccinated couldn’t sway her.
My mother also loves to travel. When she learned of the travel restrictions that would be forced upon her for being unvaccinated, she decided to get it. Not only did she decide to get it, but because she was nearing a deadline for her trip, she rushed her second dose by lying to the pharmacy that she hadn’t gotten her first dose. So now she has two doses, 2 weeks apart, on two separate cards. The irony that her decision to rush the second dose was not part of any clinical trial and that she was potentially putting herself in harms way is not lost on me. But it is lost on her. She only decided to get it when it directly benefitted her.
Selfish people need to be shown the direct consequences to themselves of their actions/inactions.
Vaccinated? Go ahead and travel without restrictions.
Vaccinated? Continue working at your hospital job.
Vaccinated? Watch a play.
Unvaccinated? None of the above.
To try and persuade the unvaccinated by informing them of the consequences to other people (such as not getting other people sick) is ineffective for people who care about themselves above anybody else.
Natalia, I do think this whole controversy (and politicization) of the COVID vaccination reveals something about American society (not necessarily your mother!) -- a remarkable degree of narcissism and selfishness -- relative to most other wealthy societies where a higher percentage have been vaccinated. We tend to equate "freedom" with the right to do whatever we want, regardless of its effect on others. It's only when our exercise of this sort of "freedom" interferes with our enjoyment of other freedoms do we tend to act more responsibly.
This is quite true. I’m reminded of a Daniel Boorstein book I read in high school regarding the “go-getter” character of those who expanded the empire westward, wrenching territory from native peoples, importing Chinese to build the railroads and mine for gold then massacred them when they were no longer useful, those who created company towns to basically indenture their workers, and of course those who enslaved African men and women so they could eke greater profits. Our late-stage capitalism “values” comprise selfishness and narcissism (witness the last “president”) and it’s these that doom us.
Wondering how much of the unfilled jobs they are complaining so much about is actually going unfilled because the higher hourly rate businesses are paying to get employees in the door are making it possible to drop that 2nd or 3rd job they needed to survive? Progress?
Scott, hard to say. I keep up with the empirical research on this, which shows that about 20 percent of people who have cut back on work (for example, by dropping a 2nd or 3rd job) have done so because they're getting higher pay now. I do consider that progress.
Would love to see more of the positive effects of the current administration’s policy’s on display in the media. Especially as we get closer to midterms, the republicans really excel at spreading disinformation and would love to see a similar effort by democrats to counter that disinformation.
For the most part it is ignorance due to lack of education, perceived fear of power of educated people in this case health professionals, fear of being manipulated by governments they do not trust and the adoration of TV or movie personalities granting them extensive powers to know what is best for everyone. Underlying this is a lack of critical thinking skills to listen objectively and questioning lay to advice given on shows. magazines or Facebook etc. They question what is in a vaccine, rightly so but do not know how to find the ingredients online or to read critically scientific papers. They hear RNA thinking it will change their bodies DNA without understanding the messenger aspect of how RNA provides the substances and pattern for manufacturing immune cells required to fight Covid. They think they can be tracked with objects in the vaccine when the needle bore is so small no particles or objects can be passed through.
I am afraid ignorance of this type is difficult to change in poorly educated persons. It is like reading a headline but not the story and missing the importance inside. Unfortunately news media are to blame also when substantive news is “told” in 30 seconds.
Mr trump was a master of false narratives but repeated on and on until he was believed.
I'm not so sure it's just or even primarily ignorance. A few days ago I spoke with an acquaintance -- a highly-educated man -- who doesn't want to be vaccinated. He said he just doesn't trust Big Pharma or the government. Well, I don't trust Big Pharma either. And there have been too many times during my lifetime when the government outright lied. So I understand where he's coming from. What frustrates me is that he refuses to read the science. He referred me to a recent article in the Journal of the American Medical Association to prove his point, but it didn't prove his point. Had he read it carefully, he would have seen that. Maybe this is a form of ignorance, but I see it as a form of stubbornness mixed with selfishness.
That is a form of ignorance by exclusion or he simply does not understand the science. Mistrust of government is endemic in the US and now Canada. I think scepticism there is appropriate. Pharma has made huge mistakes over time but not often. Memories for mistakes are long but you have to balance what has gone right and the huge benefit to health for many.. diabetics, heart, kidney etc.
He might be stubborn but does not seem to be balancing evidence. I hope for his sake he does not contract the disease.
Let's try out our critical thinking skills then. Does the vaccine protect someone from covid or doesn't it? If the vaccine works, then why would someone with the vaccine care if another is not vaccinated? If the vaccine does not work, then why is there so much pressure for people to take a vaccine that does not work? You take the vaccine to protect yourself, not other people. Also, Trump has said publicly that everyone should take the vaccine.
Mr Reich explained it very well, and very diplomatically, above. The more unvaccinated people there are, the more virus there is, the more chance of it mutating into a form the vaccine does not act upon effectively. So, the vaccine works, and yet, a large unvaccinated population still puts the entire human population at risk. I'll add that even if that were nto a factor, I get to care about unvaccinated people because I care about people. Let's say Joe is unvaccinated, and because of threat, he suffers and dies. I don't care about that as much as he should, but I do care. Let's be as selfish as Joe and say I don't care about that at all, ut I care that he is taking up space in an ICU that should go to someone who just had an accident or who just had a heart attack or that people like Joe are exhausting medical staff to the point that they are both abused and less effective, and that all affects *me* if I need care. Let's consider people like some of those in this discussion, who are among the few who are not materially helped by the vaccine because they are already so immunocompromised or for whatever reason. Joe not being vaccinated puts these already disadvantaged people at risk. Let's look at all the children who do not yet have any access to the vaccine. Let's look at the people whose history with the government and with medical care is such that they *legitimately* fear getting the vaccine. They are further endangered by Joe electing not to get it for no particularly good reason. Let's look at the assertion that it is everyone's right to not get vaccinated -- in this country, that as not been true for decades. We require vaccinations of school children for a number of serious diseases. This is a serious disease (having killed millions) and there is just cause to require vaccination. Let's look at the idea that the cacine is a bad risk. Over 6 billion COVID vaccine shots have been administered. The rate of bad reactions is less than 0.00008%.
“You take the vaccine to protect yourself, not other people.” This is untrue. Vaccines protect everyone in a society. There are some who are unable to get it (currently children) and you are putting them at risk. The vaccine is -highly- effective at preventing hospitalization and death, what about the healthcare professionals that are critically overworked, the ICUs that need to turn away car accident and heart attack patients because of the selfish, YES selfish unvaccinated?
I lost patience a LOT. Somehow I found just a little bit. I realized that beneath my anger is a need for control, and in a democracy we have to accept that we have only as much as the next guy.
No vaccine protects 100%. The flu vaccine does not, yet millions of people routinely get one every year. No birth control method protects against pregnancy 100%, but is that a good reason not to use them? Seat belts will not protect you against death or serious injury in 100% of car accidents, but should that prevent you from wearing one? There are no absolute guarantees in this lifetime. Get used to it.
The vaccine prevents death and serious disease requiring hospitalization. It works. 98% of people who’ve recently been hospitalized or died from COVID weren’t vaxed.
I'm just getting the hang of this, so I'm not sure exactly how to respond to all these many good and thoughtful messages. Let me start by restating something I just wrote in response to Theorem, who provides a particularly thoughtful explanation of why they're not going to be vaccinated. My point is that Theorem doesn't quite fully assess risk. The fact is, getting vaccinated greatly reduces the risk that you'll get the virus. As a result, if you're vaccinated you're far less likely to infect others than if you remain unvaccinated.
So in reality, getting vaccinated does protect others, and remaining unvaccinated increases the risk that others will become infected.
One other thing that's very important to keep in mind: This virus keeps mutating. The more human bodies it can infect, the more likely it will eventually mutate into a new form that resists the vaccines we have available. So every person who decides they don't want to be vaccinated is not only raising the risk to others of being infected directly, but also indirectly raising the risks of other human beings on the planet that the virus will mutate in ways that are more difficult (or impossible) to stop.
I appreciate this may be a tough call for Theorem and for others.
This reminds me so much of the early days of the AIDS crisis, when so many men refused to wear condoms, against all the evidence that unprotected sex was killing people, because it was their body, their right. However, in the case of AIDS, one had to have sex with someone HIV positive (or share needles) to contract HIV. Now all we have to do is inhale someone else’s aerosols. The fact that 1 in 500 US residents have perished from this disease should be a sobering enough truth to turn one’s mind toward vaccination—we are, in fact, interdependent, and therefore responsible for each other’s well being.
Those who remain unvaccinated are engaging in unprosecuted manslaughter mass murder and the imposition of life long serious illness.
You're doing fine sir.
I'm just glad I am here today to participate a bit; still not like being in person to one your lectures I imagine
Folks, I have to go tend to a few other things right now, so that has to be all for today. Thanks for your very thoughtful comments and questions. Hope this newsletter and these chats continue to be useful to you. I'm enjoying them a great deal.
I think we're looking at it wrong. The problem isn't that there are people who don't want to get vaccinated. That's their right. It is, after all, a free country. Their body, their choice as we say. But their rights don't exist in a vacuum. With rights come responsibilities: we pay for the benefits of living in a society by giving up a small part of the freedom that we value. We have a responsibility to the larger society that gives us our rights and protects our freedoms. And that means we owe an obligation to the larger society.
So if people don't want to get vaccinated, they give up their right to be among society and to avail themselves of the benefits of living in the larger society. So, they can refuse to vaccinate, but then they need to stay home. They need to work remotely (or find a different job where they can do that). They need to have their food and other things delivered to their home so they don't have to go out. They need to stay away from restaurants, bars, theaters, bowling alleys, etc, and yes, even church. Because we need to get our economy back up and moving again. That's the socially responsible thing that needs to happen. And those of us who have spent the last year and a half following all the rules, wearing masks, and getting vaccinated (even when it made us more than a little nervous) and fulfilling our obligation to the larger society, deserve to get our lives back to normal. And most importantly, non-vaxxers need to recognize that by choosing their freedom not to get vaccinated, they have waived their right to be treated by our medical system. So they have to choose: they can have their freedom, or they can have the benefits of society. One or the other, but not both.
Renee, you put your finger on what's so difficult and important about this debate, particularly in the United States -- where we tend to define freedom as the right to do exactly what we want to do for ourselves regardless of its effects on anyone else. We do have social responsibilities. That's what a society is all about -- what we owe others as members of it. If someone isn't willing to take on particular responsibilities (such as getting vaccinated, wearing a mask, and so on), then it follows that, as you suggest, that person has to take on a different set of responsibilities in order to maintain the safety and security of the community. Think, by analogy, of the nation during World War II, when every young man had to be drafted (and possibly face the ultimate sacrifice), or, if he had personal objections to the war, had to do public service in another way.
I agree. And so I think that we need to move the conversation away from whether or not people have the right/freedom to refuse to be vaccinated (and consequently what arguments we should make to convince them, or how we should deal with our friends/ family/neighbors/coworkers who refuse) and start talking about the consequences of their choices.
As Hobbes said society needs a 'social contract - Leviathan: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B09FFQ5BQ6/ref=dbs_a_def_rwt_bibl_vppi_i1
But the only thing Hobbes got Right was the social contract; Understand his sentiment though, but shouldn’t give up. Cornell West said don’t have any illusions while maintaining your hope
Right on! My co-chaplain, who lives in North Carolina, is herself suffering so hard right now, because so many non-COVID patients are dying. Their very large hospital is beyond out of beds, with nonvaxed COVID patients overrunning the facility. And the families of these nonvaxed patients are threatening doctors and nurses because they believe COVID is a hoax and don’t want their loved ones treated for it. In this tragic climate, *everyone* loses.
Agree except thinking those unvaccinated that do all you mention, should be treated; The value of protecting liberty/individual choice, decisions
My experience has been that those that are reticent to be vaccinated cite a variety of reasons, often picking and choosing whichever one is convenient in the moment. I had never expected that FDA approval would stop the Know-Nothings from characterizing the vaccines as "experimental", but it is still deeply frustrating nonetheless.
Mat, I don't think they're "know-nothings." One of my neighbors here is highly educated and still won't be vaccinated. She explained to me yesterday that she doesn't trust Big Pharma and she doesn't trust the government. I understand her distrust. What I don't understand is her unwillingness to look at the data.
The vaccine is used around the world. Is she also distrusting all those governments?
It might be that some people are unhelpfully “interpreting” data
I know of several, from one friend to strangers I meet. Most compelling is what my ER doctor son is going through. Hospital beds filled with non-vaxed TX and OK deniers ("I don't have COVID), otherwise turning away from ER and admittance residents. "Mom, it doesn't have to be this way....They are all assholes...I want to tell them to go home a die." This from my ever so kind and patience and dedicated 32 year old son!
Cynthia, I hear much the same very often from people who have been vaccinated -- anger and outrage at those who still refuse to be vaccinated. I get it. But there's so much division and anger already in the land that I'd like to explore other ways of responding, ways that might be more useful. Hence, today's discussion.
Good topic to devote time to listing specifics, including what is acceptable or necessary “violence.” We still can get it done by voting, I hope, but fear time is very short. Voting solution means educating and organizing. The next flood/extinction, and another go around (evolution) is also an option that would be chosen by not choosing right
I work for a 40-person professional services firm in the Bay Area owned by three people. The entire firm, save one of the owners, is vaxed. A number of people have had discussions about the science behind COVID-19 and the vaccines with the owner, to no avail. Last week a number of us sent him emails detailing how he’s not the “leader” we thought he was as a result of his stance. Implicit in our emails was a questioning of his judgment as a leader. His response was pretty defensive, but I think the implications have hit home—his ego is bruised (he has publicly espoused “servant leadership” in the past; we pointed out that championing his own rights versus the good of the whole is antithetical to what he claims to value. We’ll see what comes of this. (He was working in the office the day we sent our emails, and we noticed that he left to WFH after he received them….)
Joren, sounds like you and your colleagues might have landed on a useful way to "manage upward" and change the behavior of the owner of your firm. I continue to be impressed at how many employees these days are managing upward.
Way to go
You’re welcome to your opinion, and to feeling sorry for me. It changes nothing in my life, nor in the lives of those I’m responsible for…. Having said that, you don’t have any clue as to the tone of our emails, the commitment to show respect to him, or the tone of his original message email that spurred ours. (Did you know that if said owner transmitted COVID to any of his workers, his company would be subjected to a CalOSHA investigation and an increase in workers comp insurance? We could be fined thousands of dollars, which isn’t nothing for a small business.)
Honestly, I didn’t sign up for Professor Reich’s newsletter to engage on this level. I haven’t read your last comment, and won’t, because your line of “reasoning”‘isn’t generative. It’s troll-like. I’m sad that even spaces such as this aren’t immune to nonproductive inputs. I guess I’ll have to unsubscribe.
I'm sorry...I didn't want to go this deep either. It's just that I go on the defensive when people go on the offensive about the unvaccinated. If I can delete my comments, I will.
Joren, We are here for an important conversation and we all know who and what Robert stands for. This person is just here to bring garbage to the community. You are informative and helpful. Ignore this type of topic with these type of people. Unsubscribing is giving her reason to continuously bring her nonsense to this platform. People like her will be weeded out. Thank you for your input! I think you should stay.
A sales clerk told me she hadn't been vaccinated because of all the deaths the vaccine has caused. When I asked where she'd learned about the deaths, she replied, "The Simpsons." I wish I was joking.
Richard, I'm sure you're not joking. These days, people get their "facts" from the strangest places. I'm old enough to remember when people like Edward R. Murrow and Walter Cronkite were trusted to provide news and facts to all Americans. We've lost that trust, and we've paying a large price for that loss.
My ninth grade teacher in the Second Nixon term era lamented to us that “it says something when you trust Walter Cronkite more than your politicians.” What have we been doing since then, and still?!
Social Sciences teacher- A required course back then. (Trying not to become one of those old people yelling on the corner at kids)
just fyi--- the one who seems to know the most on Afghanistan, Taliban, etc. is Lara Logan! And since she left CBS in 2018 seems to have moved right... See her interviews before 2018 on YouTube and now she is on Fox of all places!
Here in rabid red Sarasota, Florida, one of the red jewels in the DeathSantis empire, I ignored the horse dewormer and other cures and got my third Pfizer shot this afternoon at my local Walgreens. That went in the left arm; the right got my flu shot and overall I received a hands-on assurance that there are islands of sanity even here in Variant Land.
Is there a link for your office hours today?
Harry, I think you're here!
RR--- Get on Megyn Kelly and Lara Logan programs!
Strange interaction at the neighborhood small pharmacy my husband and I go to for vaccines: The boosters just became available here in Oregon and hubs and I needed to get the flu shot too. We visited this (really) small pharmacy to get both shots.
While we were waiting, an older, obviously not-in-great-health woman came in to pick up her prescriptions. She had a bad case of kyphosis, seemed weak, and needed to wait for her Lyft ride back home. Another couple came in for the flu and booster. She and this new couple started chatting and the subject of the booster came up - her first reaction was, "Hey I'm not getting that thing!" She seemed like a strong anti-vaxxer.
The couple exchanged a pointed glance with us. Her next reaction was, "Well, next time I'm in, the driver won't wait."
This seemed so obviously a case of social pressure - her home life was anti-vax. When she discovered the people in the pharmacy were pro-vax she changed her mind.
I imagine quite a few unvaccinated folks out there socialize or live with anti-vaxxers and just don't feel like they can challenge their immediate social circle.
I think what we need are some ads with people talking about how they changed their minds about getting the vaccine and how their world didn't come crashing down or how they stood up to social pressure or how it's okay to admit that you're wrong.
One of the most significant drivers of social behavior is fear of being discovered that you were conned. Not actually getting conned, but the embarrassment of having others know that you were conned.
Good idea, BK.
I am not vaxxed yet, I am 48 years old, and active (not obese). If I get the virus, I have a 1 in 5000 chance that I will die from it, I view this as a low risk. I am nervous about potential side effects from the vaccine that have yet to be discovered or reported -- long term side affects cannot be understood by anyone because the vaccine is still in clinical trials (although I do understand one of them is FDA approved). Plus this has been heavily politicized by the left for reasons that I can only guess. I do not think I am putting anyone at risk by not taking the vaccine and I am very tired of this issue being so politicized by the left. You take the vaccine to protect yourself, *not to protect other people*. The idea that someone that is not vaxxed is being selfish is completely ridiculous. Every adult in the United States has been offered the vaccine at this point. If you want to take the vaccine, great, you are protected. If you get the virus, your body will have the antibodies to fight off the virus. If you don't want to take it, that is fine also, that is a risk you are willing to take. But whether you have the vaccine or not, you can still get the virus, you can spread it to others, and you can still be hospitalized. ~30% of people hospitalized are fully vaccinated -- I am not sure how we still call these "breakthrough" cases. It comes down to: Does the vaccine work or doesn't it? If it works, then you are protected, and why should you care of someone doesn't take it? *You're protected* If it doesn't work, then why is there so much pressure for people to take a vaccine that does not work? This thinking is Orwellian double-think. Both positions cannot be true at the same time!
Let me start a bit early today, because there are so many good comments and questions. This one from Theorem is particularly interesting to me, and represents probably the most thoughtful expression of the view against taking the vaccine. I hear you, Theorem, but I think you make a mistake that may be getting in the way of your thinking about this. It's all about risk. The fact is, getting vaccinated greatly reduces the risk that you'll get the virus. As a result, if you're vaccinated you're far less likely to infect others than if you remain unvaccinated. So in reality, getting vaccinated does protect others, and remaining unvaccinated increases the risk that others will become infected. One other thing that's very important to keep in mind: This virus keeps mutating. The more human bodies it can infect, the more likely it will eventually mutate into a new form that resists the vaccines we have available. So every person who decides they don't want to be vaccinated is not only raising the risk to others of being infected directly, but also indirectly raising the risks of other human beings on the planet that the virus will mutate in ways that are more difficult (or impossible) to stop.
I appreciate this may be a tough call for you and for others. Hope this is helpful.
My understanding of being vaccinated from researching many studies that I find by looking in Google scholar at the journals and peer reviewed papers, is that the one main factor is most all brands of covid-19 vaccines help prevent severe illness and hospitalization from around 91 to 97%. And as far as prevention of getting covid-19, it seems to have a higher percentage from contracting the virus after the vaccine and diminishes over time. From what i remember for instance, in Isreal, their health ministry around June to July stated that the pfizer was about 39% efficacy on the delta variant. And they were one of the first countries to really vaccinate their population. Everyone is going to eventually get covid-19 so ask yourself these two questions, when you get covid-19, are you willing to take the chance that you are going to be physically strong enough to not become hospitalized and if not, can you or your family afford the bill after or if you come out of the hospital? The same type of question you should be asking yourself when you overindulge by eating too much, have unprotected sex, stand on top of a ladder or any other unhealthy, unsafe things humans do.
Shit happens, though. You can’t know exactly even if you’re in tiptop shape. That’s the whole point. We must acknowledge that we can only go on odds, and what looks like the best thing for everyone. Israel may not be the same as the US, too. I haven’t seen evidence that things will go the same if people get vaccinated here. Look at Vermont or whatever. All this “overindulge” stuff might be judgmental, but I don’t want to be judgmental by saying that.
Hi Robert, I appreciate the comments and your reply. Thank you for the discussion, I appreciate it. Respectfully, I disagree with you that I am the one getting in the way of my own thoughts. A few points:
You said, "Getting vaccinated greatly reduces the risk that you'll get the virus," why can't the discussion end there? Any adult can get the vaccine now. Those that do not have the vaccine understand the situation and are choosing to take this risk, for whatever reason.
Then you said, "you're far less likely to infect others if you remain unvaccinated." So, the "others" you are talking about are the *unvaccinated* who have already actively decided to take on this risk. To my point, they are *not* putting vaccinated people at risk because, as you have stated, "Getting vaccinated greatly reduces the risk that you'll get the virus."
So, respectfully, which is it? Vaccinated people are protected or aren't they? If they are protected, then why should they care if vaccinated people get sick when they actively decide to take on this risk? They are the only ones at risk, right? If the vaccinated are not protected, then why push a vaccine that is not effective? Or course, both things cannot be true at the same time.
🙏
"I do not think I am putting anyone at risk by not taking the vaccine and I am very tired of this issue being so politicized by the left." This is demonstrably untrue. There is no such thing as a 100% protective vaccine and you run the risk of threatening people with a breakthrough infection, as well as providing an opportunity for the virus to mutate into a variant which the vaccines will not protect against. Try and understand that this isn't about you.
So the vaccine works or it doesn't work?
The notion "work or doesn't work" is an incorrect way to think about vaccines. Vaccines offer protection to a greater or lesser degree depending on your exposure and your own physical health. You can still get the flu with a flu vaccine, measles with a measles vaccine; you won't get as sick. So *of course* the vaccine works.
If the vaccine works, then why are the vaccinated worried about unvaccinated people? Respectfully, my head is spinning from the circular logic.
It's not circular, stop with the sophistry.
-- hospitalizations of people with Covid have taxed our health care workers to the max. They are tired and burned out. Many have quit or are thinking of quitting (https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2021/04/22/health-workers-covid-quit/). These are people quitting their *careers* not some casual job.
-- hospitalizations of people with Covid have made getting emergency services difficult or impossible. You have only to read about ICU beds being occupied by unvaxxed Covid sickies. My sister in law had a serious stroke last month - she was treated in the freekin' HALLWAY of the hospital because there were no ICU beds left. Did she die prematurely because her care was compromised? We'll never know for sure but we do know it couldn't have helped.
-- the virus mutates. Each mutation carries the possibility of a new version of Covid that might be too elusive for the vaccine. Delta is an obvious example
We should all be masking and social distancing. The infection comes from the vaccinated if it’s up in your mouth or nose, where it’s not as effective as, most crucially, it is in your lungs.
I have an immune condition caused by cancer treatment. I have been vaccinated, and have received my booster. Despite that, per antibody testing, I do not demonstrate any antibodies to COVID-19. Research is still underway to determine what that means for me, and for people like me - and in the meantime, we are all at risk from people like yourself who believe that "You take the vaccine to protect yourself, *not to protect other people*". You take the vaccine to protect yourself, yes, but also those who cannot be vaccinated - such as those under 12, those with immune conditions, and those who cannot be vaccinated due to medical issues, as well as to aid in restricting the spread of the disease, which is the only way to gain any control over this pandemic. It's not all about you.
Getting vaccinated greatly reduces your chances of getting the virus, making it far less likely that you'll infect others -- this is one way in which it protects others. It also helps in a global effort to reduce the virus's likelihood of mutating into a more devastating disease.
The idea of rugged individualism drives your thinking. We live in a community and have a responsibility to them to do no harm.
I understand but you take the vaccine to protect yourself, not other people. Antibodies in your system can't protect anyone else but yourself.
This is incomplete. You also take the vaccine in order to slow the spread of the virus. The virus mutates quickly in an unvaccinated population. Each mutation has the potential to be more lethal (e.g. Delta variant). Each mutation has the potential to bypass the effects of the vaccine.
They do better than in the non-vaccinated. It’s not either-or. It’s odds. But everyone should mask and social distance. The likelihood that anti-vaxxers do this is just lower I think due to politics and lack of understanding that if the mask protects 80% it really helps on a state, National, or global scale.
I also think taking the vaccine is helping yourself in another way. Getting rid of the virus is a huge benefit to every single person, including you. We are all sick (some literally) of this thing and want it gone, out of economic as well as social grief and anxiety. ?
It's Science. The vaccine works; they're the most concentrated. Try reading actual Science and not politicized press or social media. Your "1 in 5000" percentage is incorrect. Go watch the video about pants-no-pants-urine-spatter video if you don't believe actual science.
I think it might be about how you look at data. If you’re thinking in an Orwellian way, suspicious and whatnot, you’ll find reasons not to take the vaccine. But what the government is actually trying to do, from my more trusting perspective, is save lives and end the virus. They are doing what is humanly possible. If you look at how many deaths there would be if every state had the same vaccination rate as the most vaccinated states vs what exists (I saw a NYT graphic the other day), you can see that tens of thousands of lives would be spared. People are frustrated because they don’t know how to convey this, but really mainly care about saving lives! Real lives, not fictional or mythic.
The risk of dying from Covid if you are fully vaccinated is 1 in 137,698.
The risk of dying from a lightning strike is 1 in 138,849.
What is the real risk here? ref Chart 4: https://www.heritage.org/public-health/report/statistical-analysis-covid-19-breakthrough-infections-and-deaths
At this point I'm not handling their refusal very well. I don't speak out about it, except an occasional rebuttal to a boldly false claim about the dangers of this particular vaccine. I'm angry as hell overall, because I don't want to keep living this way; not able to gather, hug, stand close to one another without worrying that I'll either catch this virus or worse yet--give it to someone because I may be asymptomatic. Overall I see this as proof that in America we live in a SELFISH society, where people don't think of others. And the freedom bs drives me crazy!
Sherry, as I've said in some of these replies, "freedom" is a slippery concept because it so easily slides into selfishness. You write of a "selfish society." I don't think human beings can form a society based on selfishness. It's not a society. It's just a bunch of people pursuing their own personal interests who happen to be living within the same borders. That sort of "society" is hugely vulnerable to all sorts of problems, as we're witnessing now.
I think America is a very open and unselfish society - there are always a few rotten apples in the barrel…
It's a very simple answer...not one! They were looking forward to it!...but then there is a very important difference, I'm not in the US...I'm in Spain! Likewise, I have family in Ireland, and again, the answer is not one even considered not getting vaccinated!
I can only guess that people in the US are so angry with big pharma (the opioid crisis comes to mind) that they think this vaccine is designed just to make another few billion, and the truth is I agree that big pharma are a bunch of crooks (from whom the government should clawback windfall profits afterwards ). but do I think they manufactured this situation to make a buck?...absolutely not!
I agree about Big Pharma. And I could go on about the FDA (do you know they just reclassified the supplement N-acetyl cysteine as a drug, so it’s banned from OTC sales, because clinical trials have found it super effective against the inflammatory response to COVID? Who benefits, I wonder?) but reality is complex and requires a systems-thinking approach to help sort out what will serve the greater good. I wish so hard that systems thinking were a mandatory part of high school education. Then perhaps we’d not be in the mess we find ourselves in….
Hi Noel - apparently the Irish are the best in Europe, something like 90% vaccinated. But it could be a residue of obedience to authority, from the church - or it could be that the Irish are very quick to recognise when a disease is too deadly to ignore, perhaps from the experience with tuberculosis which was fairly endemic in that damp climate.
We are over 90% single or fully dosed! I believe the success of the campaign is simply down to common sense. I can't fathom anti-vaxxers at all. (Now that said, Ireland has a prominent anti-vax campaigner)...As to reverence/obedience to the church, that died on a cross about 20 years ago. I just think we come together in a time of need. I remember Foot and Mouth disease in the early 2000s, again, every university, shop, etc, had disinfectant mats, and all walking in the country was banned, (Many would have remembered the Foot and Mouth outbreak in 1967 so they knew how serious it was.)
My mom refused to get vaccinated because she thought that the vaccine had been rushed through clinical trials and didn’t want to be a “Guinea pig”. Even the fact that neither of my children could be vaccinated because of their young age and that she would be protecting them by getting vaccinated couldn’t sway her.
My mother also loves to travel. When she learned of the travel restrictions that would be forced upon her for being unvaccinated, she decided to get it. Not only did she decide to get it, but because she was nearing a deadline for her trip, she rushed her second dose by lying to the pharmacy that she hadn’t gotten her first dose. So now she has two doses, 2 weeks apart, on two separate cards. The irony that her decision to rush the second dose was not part of any clinical trial and that she was potentially putting herself in harms way is not lost on me. But it is lost on her. She only decided to get it when it directly benefitted her.
Selfish people need to be shown the direct consequences to themselves of their actions/inactions.
Vaccinated? Go ahead and travel without restrictions.
Vaccinated? Continue working at your hospital job.
Vaccinated? Watch a play.
Unvaccinated? None of the above.
To try and persuade the unvaccinated by informing them of the consequences to other people (such as not getting other people sick) is ineffective for people who care about themselves above anybody else.
Natalia, I do think this whole controversy (and politicization) of the COVID vaccination reveals something about American society (not necessarily your mother!) -- a remarkable degree of narcissism and selfishness -- relative to most other wealthy societies where a higher percentage have been vaccinated. We tend to equate "freedom" with the right to do whatever we want, regardless of its effect on others. It's only when our exercise of this sort of "freedom" interferes with our enjoyment of other freedoms do we tend to act more responsibly.
This is quite true. I’m reminded of a Daniel Boorstein book I read in high school regarding the “go-getter” character of those who expanded the empire westward, wrenching territory from native peoples, importing Chinese to build the railroads and mine for gold then massacred them when they were no longer useful, those who created company towns to basically indenture their workers, and of course those who enslaved African men and women so they could eke greater profits. Our late-stage capitalism “values” comprise selfishness and narcissism (witness the last “president”) and it’s these that doom us.
Wondering how much of the unfilled jobs they are complaining so much about is actually going unfilled because the higher hourly rate businesses are paying to get employees in the door are making it possible to drop that 2nd or 3rd job they needed to survive? Progress?
Scott, hard to say. I keep up with the empirical research on this, which shows that about 20 percent of people who have cut back on work (for example, by dropping a 2nd or 3rd job) have done so because they're getting higher pay now. I do consider that progress.
Would love to see more of the positive effects of the current administration’s policy’s on display in the media. Especially as we get closer to midterms, the republicans really excel at spreading disinformation and would love to see a similar effort by democrats to counter that disinformation.
EXCELLENT question!
For the most part it is ignorance due to lack of education, perceived fear of power of educated people in this case health professionals, fear of being manipulated by governments they do not trust and the adoration of TV or movie personalities granting them extensive powers to know what is best for everyone. Underlying this is a lack of critical thinking skills to listen objectively and questioning lay to advice given on shows. magazines or Facebook etc. They question what is in a vaccine, rightly so but do not know how to find the ingredients online or to read critically scientific papers. They hear RNA thinking it will change their bodies DNA without understanding the messenger aspect of how RNA provides the substances and pattern for manufacturing immune cells required to fight Covid. They think they can be tracked with objects in the vaccine when the needle bore is so small no particles or objects can be passed through.
I am afraid ignorance of this type is difficult to change in poorly educated persons. It is like reading a headline but not the story and missing the importance inside. Unfortunately news media are to blame also when substantive news is “told” in 30 seconds.
Mr trump was a master of false narratives but repeated on and on until he was believed.
He was a role model for ignorant thought.
I'm not so sure it's just or even primarily ignorance. A few days ago I spoke with an acquaintance -- a highly-educated man -- who doesn't want to be vaccinated. He said he just doesn't trust Big Pharma or the government. Well, I don't trust Big Pharma either. And there have been too many times during my lifetime when the government outright lied. So I understand where he's coming from. What frustrates me is that he refuses to read the science. He referred me to a recent article in the Journal of the American Medical Association to prove his point, but it didn't prove his point. Had he read it carefully, he would have seen that. Maybe this is a form of ignorance, but I see it as a form of stubbornness mixed with selfishness.
That is a form of ignorance by exclusion or he simply does not understand the science. Mistrust of government is endemic in the US and now Canada. I think scepticism there is appropriate. Pharma has made huge mistakes over time but not often. Memories for mistakes are long but you have to balance what has gone right and the huge benefit to health for many.. diabetics, heart, kidney etc.
He might be stubborn but does not seem to be balancing evidence. I hope for his sake he does not contract the disease.
Ask him who he hangs out with.
Let's try out our critical thinking skills then. Does the vaccine protect someone from covid or doesn't it? If the vaccine works, then why would someone with the vaccine care if another is not vaccinated? If the vaccine does not work, then why is there so much pressure for people to take a vaccine that does not work? You take the vaccine to protect yourself, not other people. Also, Trump has said publicly that everyone should take the vaccine.
Mr Reich explained it very well, and very diplomatically, above. The more unvaccinated people there are, the more virus there is, the more chance of it mutating into a form the vaccine does not act upon effectively. So, the vaccine works, and yet, a large unvaccinated population still puts the entire human population at risk. I'll add that even if that were nto a factor, I get to care about unvaccinated people because I care about people. Let's say Joe is unvaccinated, and because of threat, he suffers and dies. I don't care about that as much as he should, but I do care. Let's be as selfish as Joe and say I don't care about that at all, ut I care that he is taking up space in an ICU that should go to someone who just had an accident or who just had a heart attack or that people like Joe are exhausting medical staff to the point that they are both abused and less effective, and that all affects *me* if I need care. Let's consider people like some of those in this discussion, who are among the few who are not materially helped by the vaccine because they are already so immunocompromised or for whatever reason. Joe not being vaccinated puts these already disadvantaged people at risk. Let's look at all the children who do not yet have any access to the vaccine. Let's look at the people whose history with the government and with medical care is such that they *legitimately* fear getting the vaccine. They are further endangered by Joe electing not to get it for no particularly good reason. Let's look at the assertion that it is everyone's right to not get vaccinated -- in this country, that as not been true for decades. We require vaccinations of school children for a number of serious diseases. This is a serious disease (having killed millions) and there is just cause to require vaccination. Let's look at the idea that the cacine is a bad risk. Over 6 billion COVID vaccine shots have been administered. The rate of bad reactions is less than 0.00008%.
“You take the vaccine to protect yourself, not other people.” This is untrue. Vaccines protect everyone in a society. There are some who are unable to get it (currently children) and you are putting them at risk. The vaccine is -highly- effective at preventing hospitalization and death, what about the healthcare professionals that are critically overworked, the ICUs that need to turn away car accident and heart attack patients because of the selfish, YES selfish unvaccinated?
Is “selfish” the best way to put it? That just makes people defensive. I can be damn selfish, too. Still, not always.
I’m not changing any minds being an internet warrior, so yeah, I’ve lost patience with those who decide not to get vaccinated.
I lost patience a LOT. Somehow I found just a little bit. I realized that beneath my anger is a need for control, and in a democracy we have to accept that we have only as much as the next guy.
Thanks Juliet! I’ve really enjoyed reading your replies here, they are well thought out and articulated.
No vaccine protects 100%. The flu vaccine does not, yet millions of people routinely get one every year. No birth control method protects against pregnancy 100%, but is that a good reason not to use them? Seat belts will not protect you against death or serious injury in 100% of car accidents, but should that prevent you from wearing one? There are no absolute guarantees in this lifetime. Get used to it.
If you listen to trump that is your problem. He cannot think and is no mentor to follow
The vaccine prevents death and serious disease requiring hospitalization. It works. 98% of people who’ve recently been hospitalized or died from COVID weren’t vaxed.