I’m old enough to remember the incredibly passionate and angry protests against the atrocities and genocides committed against Vietnam and South East Asia ;(by the US government of that time). However, the violence and insults came from the police , and not the students. Today, we have social media amping up the fear and rage: placing students against each other. In the Vietnam era they were mostly united: (not all , but the majority by far). We have social, political, and economic influencers who do not always have the interests of free speech or principled, conscientious objections in mind. In fact, it seems they want to keep increase the anger, violence, and hate : all to drive up views, clicks, and attention to THEM: to increase their profits. It’s manipulation of the most cynical and dangerous kind imaginable.
While so many feel completely justified in their fear and anger, the challenge is to MAKE and FIND a way to communicate as opposed dominating the crowd:
through conversation and THE most difficult thing to retrieve once it’s all but gone:
I remember the campus anti-war protests during the Vietnam war as well as in Washington DC. I remember demonstrating and getting tear gassed. I like to think our collective protest actually helped shorten the war. Student enthusiasm for political protest is one engine in the overall pressure on leaders to do something. In this Hamas/Israeli conflict the leaders of both sides have been despicable. We should all protest and condemn the killing of non-combatants and the fact that many men believe it's acceptable to use violence to make their point. The world should put pressure on BOTH sides to stop this.
Put pressure on Hamas to release the hostages. That would be a big step towards peace. Is it too much to ask the protesters to add that to their list of demands?
I carry no brief for Netanyahu or for overall Israeli policies. The West Bank is an example of why Hamas exists. But if there is a deal to swap those kidnapped on October 7 for some number of those arrested in the West Bank for minor transgressions or on questionable grounds, that would be good news.
BTW "arrested" not equals "kidnapped," even if the arrests are questionable.
O K they are prisoners of an occupation. Held without trial and spoked to in their native language. Oh they are taken from their homes in the middle of the night. Stop repeating Zionist propaganda.
Your comment is pathetic. It’s gross and despicable to equate what Hamas did on Oct 7th with Israeli military interdiction off of suspected terrorists.
Obviously you do not know what is transpiring in the West Bank or you do and refuse to acknowledge it. We the United States are funding this land steal.
Protesters don't give a rats ass about Jews, only "poor" Arabs.
Protesters also don't give a rats about Ukraine and its intentional attempt at genocide and crimes against humanity, because there aren't thousands of Ukrainian Students and Ukrainian wheat money fueling professors and students.
William, wow, false equivalencies are easy to spout, but they get us nowhere. If you look at the numbers of people killed, it looks a lot like Israel has been taking a revenge that is far out of proportion to what was done to it and its people. There is a reason most of the protesters are supporting Palestine. They are clearly the abused party in this case. Antisemitism is part of American life, unfortunately because as a people who have reveled in hatred of people who are "not just like us." Heck, our people even hate folks like us if they aren't the right religion, political party, or other insignificance. Maybe these protests can show us just how stupid hatred is. It is destructive and has no true social value except to the folks at whatever level, who manipulate the hatred and haters for their own purposes. It happens around the world too and the Gaza War is just the latest example. So, the efforts need to be on ending the war and rebuilding a society, maybe differently this time, with people having more equal rights. It's a thought.
Proportionality is not part of war, Ruth. When the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor killing 3500 American servicemen, they weren't anticipating a "proportional" response. They knew they'd unleashed war. They were counting on America to not industrialize fast enough to fight for long. But America built 9000 war ships and 300,000 war planes. America killed about 3 million Japanese. Tell me, Ruth, was that a proportional response to the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor?
There are a couple of obvious problems with this. First, not all white people are rich and not all nonwhites are poor. Specifically in the case of Israel, the majority of Jewish Israelis are not "white," i.e., of European descent. The majority are Mizrahi (of Middle Eastern descent, from the Jewish communities of Iran, Egypt, Iraq, Yemen, Morocco, etc.), African, Indian... And Palestinians, like most Arabs, are as "white" as, e.g., Greeks.
Hamas is not likely to bend to public political pressure coming from students abroad, since Hamas is not really a responsible state acting organization that is shielding itself behind the residents of Gaza. If those hostages that they took on their intitial foray into Isreal are still alive ( I doubt they are since they would hamper mobility) I also doubt that they would be surrendered without being used as a last minute pawn to save Hamas when sufficiently cornered.
That’s my cunical view. The only side the demonstrators would have any influence on is Isreal. But, this war is Netanyahu’s swan song; he has scant motivation to stop.
They're not trying to influence Hamas or Israel. They are calling to their/our own government to stop supplying the bombs paid for by our tax dollars to reduce Gaza's cities to rubble and people to fragmented corpses. And they are in many cases calling on their universities to divest their endowments, as many non-profits have done in recent years (not to mention TIAA), in Israeli companies that manufacture weapons and surveillance.
It is too much to ask of Hamas, the US and the west promised a state to the Palestinians over 20 years ago and they paid lip service to this commitment!
The same western alliance took Palestinians land and created a state for Jewish people in a few short years ,DOUBLE STANDARDS.How can you equate the killing of 34000+ with some 1200 Israeli deaths.If you subjugate a people you should expect at some atrocities will happen.
Israeli behaviour is pure simple retribution and has created another generation of FREEDOM FIGHTERS! How would you feel if your parents/siblings were bombed to Hell.
No I do not accept or expect atrocities, and certainly I do not welcome them. The 34000 (if you believe Hamas's numbers) deaths were completely preventable, all Hamas had to do was not carry out its atrocity...which was not spontaneous in reaction to some Israeli action but was long and carefully planned. If Israel has any fault with regard to October 7, it is in not being prepared for the level of racism, genocide, cruelty and hatred exhibited on that day.
I have always been disappointed and somewhat surprised that there has never been a Palestinian (or Arab) Gandhi or MLK or Mandela; the response to a real or perceived offense is always violence.
If my parents were bombed to hell I would be full of hate. If their deaths were due to my government planning and carrying out a massive, hate-filled, atrocity that was bound (and known) to create a military response, I would direct that hate towards my government.
I wonder how you would react to being treated and referred to as ANIMALS!
Israel gets away with this only because in virtually every white nation the Jewish lobby control the media and the financial muscle the Jewish block has. It is only via social media that people are finding out what the Israeli IDF is doing!
If Israel has nothing to hide why won’t they allow press to go in and report fairly. You seem to have blinkers on.
Also note Mandela was labelled a terrorist too! So was Gandhi! Why don’t you suggest we should have an Israeli leader guarantee the Palestinian people a state of their own.
As for the USA why did they use there Veto on the vote to give Palestine recognition as a state because if Biden did he would loose the election and I question his decency too and as for Trump he is not fit to clean toilets and you lot elected him.Americans deserve what they get!
How silly, Anil. Palestinian leadership has consistently and repeatedly turned down offers of a Palestinian state on the West Bank and Gaza. Over and over again. That is, alas, a failure of Palestinian leadership, a leadership which you must know has enriched themselves with billions of dollars. The Hamas leadership outside of Gaza are billionaires. And you know it.
You've got it backwards; it's Israel that won't allow a Palestinian state. Netanyahoo has said repeatedly he has no interest in a 2 state solution. Various Arab countries through the 1990s and 2000s offered recognition of Israel in exchange for a 2 state setup, which would mean Israeli acceptance of Palestine, and Israel either ignored these proposals or turned them down every time.
It's funny how often in this thread people accuse Palestinians as being guilty of things Israelis are actually doing.
Jewish billionaires are helping fund Israel and its extermination plan for Palestinians; they also fund (bribe) the US Congress to give unconditional aid and support to Israel, money which could be much better spent at home. Bit I'm sure you have no problem with this.
Your proposal sounds very fair and just. However, when we understand that, this is a protest against supporting Israel and is being directed at the US government that is overtly supporting Israel. The US government has no control or influence over Hamas.
Well first I disagree that the campus protests are directed at the US government; they are directed at the universities, asking them to divest, to declare that a genocide is ongoing, to call for an unconditional cease fire, and of course amnesty for themselves.
No demands are being directed at the US government as far as I can tell.
Second, if the US only has leverage over Israel and not over Hamas, isn't a call to stop supporting Israel equivalent to asking for an unconditional unilateral cease fire? Which would mean Hamas remains in power and in possession of the hostages. Yes that is exactly what some in the US and around the world are asking, and it may be what some of the campus demonstrators really want. And some on campus and elsewhere are openly pro-Hamas. But for the most part I don't think people have thought through what are the implications of stopping support for Israel.
I cannot debate your compartmental thinking! However, this brief anecdote should help put every argument and justification of Israel/Palestine's actions to rest :
A little Benji comes home from school with a bloody nose. When his mother asks what happened, he cries, "It all started when Ali hit me back!"
One of the costs of students' legitimate protest of the Vietman war is the massive burden of student debt Americans labor under today. Ronald Reagan despised college students and stripped funding for higher education, first in California when he was governor and then the U.S. when he tragically became President.
(The other group the Republicans despised was blacks protesting for the final overthrow of Jim Crow. Their response was the "war on crime" (largely marijuana use) producing the highest incarceration rate in the world, disproportionally black population.)
Don, you are right that Republican hatreds metastasized during the Vietnam War protests, but those protests were powerful, often dismissed by middle-aged white folks in power, but they did help people to pay attention to the war. Afghanistan and Iraq were mostly ignored or seen as something too far away to care about and so the American nation didn't pay much attention beyond saying to vets "thank you for your service." Both wars went on far longer than they should have, Afghanistan, 20 years, far longer than Vietnam. Also, Nixon used the war to prove his manhood. He sabotaged peace talks to get elected, then killed thousands because he thought he could destroy Communism or some other such nonsense. The Vietnam War had a lot of people to blame. I am thinking when all is said and done, Netanyahu is going to come out looking like the war criminal he is, even to the most conservative Israeli.
These seem to be more examples of how people in power target ordinary citizens for standing up for their beliefs. Those in power also are in the process of punishing women for wanting first class citizenship status. And on and on it goes.
J. Nol, as a Vietnam Vet, who lost four team members in Sep 67 I am here to tell you that your protests did nothing but excite the reactionaries and lengthen the war, you and other protesters don't want to hear it because you were too busy patting yourself on the backs.
What caused the war to stop and brought the troops home, were the daily sights of metal caskets being unloaded from C-141's., and the constant stream of photo's and video coverage of flag draped, honor guarded funerals. It was the middle class, watching their sons, brothers,husbands, cousins, uncles being buried.
Dubya knew that all too well, and forbid reporters and photographers from photographing the unloading of caskets at Dover AFB, DE, and the coverage of funerals of soldiers killed in Iraq/Afghanistan.
He knew that if the deaths were publicized, there would be a middle class uproar against the war, and he had big plans for re election.
I protested because I witnessed the media coverage and had friends who went to Vietnam, with some not coming back. I don't remember patting myself on the back, but I do remember feeling frustrated with the administration that seemed okay with sending people into the meat grinder of war in a foreign land, that was no threat to us at all. I remember feeling helpless in the face of the madness and wanting to make my voice heard. Again, no back patting occurred. So sorry you still feel so hostile toward those of us who didn't go but did utilize our freedom of speech to try to stop the war. And sorry for the loss of your friends. And sorry that you lived during a time in the US history when the leadership thought it was okay to send other people's children to fight a surrogate war with the communists.
Dubya and Cheney did have very big plans. Sad how it all worked out for the Iraqi and Afghanis civilians, but mission was definitely accomplished. I say that with all due respect to the Vice President as he did most if not all of the leg work on it. We still do not know what he knew at that time. Dubya could never know due to plausible denial. Veep had to work with some very shady people and look the other way as innocent people were slaughtered, but that’s something he must deal with as all those do who may make such choices. Was it all worth it(?); jury still out in that one I would think.
All the protestors way back when were always considered as insignificant insects
to the those who ran and profited from the sacrifice of their families : tens of thousands who were related to and loved all those whose remains came back on those C-141’s. THAT is what motivated THEM to say something, even if they were forced to associate with the “spoiled brat commies” to do that. My family was divided in such a way. We have managed to reconcile since then, and still agree to disagree. However, we also know how passion can avert reason and blind one to sensible, on the ground solutions that could lead to understanding the issues that started the conflicts in the first place. We aren’t too keen on the passion and the rage, no matter how justifiable feelings are: but we also know how to work effectively behind the scenes to thwart the sociopaths who currently exert powerful influence on the inexperienced, the stressed, the fearful, the depressed who have and lost everything for a government and a community that discards them as inconvenient to deal with. Those deemed inconvenient are civilians, and soldiers on every side who become collateral damage to a system that will preserve itself at all costs.
And as for those insignificant and meaningless protestors (?),
They were the ones who made those daily sights of those caskets carrying the remains of their loved ones, available to the public: not on the evening news, or in traditional/ administrative media, but in ways that no one could just put down and ignore. In an age when social media and the digital age were the domain of science fiction, protest was the best form of expression available to them that would be noticed and would register in the minds and consciousness of the public. Today (?); you use your phone and / or computer to deliver messages 24/7.
So , yes, they did make a huge difference, so in ways that we have not the cognitive and chronological distance to analyze properly.
One last note, Mr Cheney raised an amazing g daughter who, though I may disagree with some of her politics, I regard as a patriot amongst those who believe that no longer matters when weighed against their ambitions.
I completely disagree with you on "we still don't know what they knew." Yes, we do . . . It was about oil. There were no WMD left in Iraq, Cheney and Dumbya's pretense for attacking the sovereign nation of Iraq. "Cheney did all the legwork"??? Yea, of gathering and coercing lies, and getting people like Colin Powell (who knew better) to go along with him. (Not to mention the CIA.) Read "The Case Against George W. Bush." If your library hasn't got a copy of it, they can certainly order it. Cheney (of Halliburton) was all about oil. As was "W"(BTW: one of the BIGGEST MISTAKES the "Supreme" Court ever made). Cheney & Bush brought the world the rise of ISIS. I always say that Cheney keeps having heart transplants because he knows he's going to hell, and he keeps trying to put off the inevitable.
As for Liz Cheney, yes, she did a great and commendable thing in standing up to the Repugs in office and voting to impeach Trump (one of only 10 Republicans to do so), and then to work on the Jan. 6 Investigative Committee. Her work there was invaluable. I am reading her book right now, "Oath and Honor: a Memoir and a Warning." Much of it is a step-by-step play of the activities of the Committee's work (which is a little redundant for those of us who kept up with all of that from other sources), but too much of the book is about the Republicans and Republican history. I would say that Liz Cheney became a decent, commendable person DESPITE her father. She is very highly educated with a long work history of her own in government. She gave up a lot to stand against Trump and his slavish servants in Congress, but she can also do just about anything she sets her mind to. It DID take a lot of courage on her part, because the whole state of hard-right Wyoming turned against her. And it IS commendable that her father backed her in her last choices of stands she took in office.
I'm sure our protests shortened the war, but it also led to crushing the middle class wealth so that the working class has no time to rise up against our wayward leaders as we did in the 60s. Plus, as Jim M. said, "we got the numbers, baby!" The Boomers were the biggest and greatest youth movement and awakening ever. And we made it count as much as we could.
Patricia, did Robert Reich say that spitting on Jewish students should be part of the protest. Has anyone in this comment section condoned spitting? I also remember the protests against Vietnam war, and since of was part of them, I know that there were exceptions to the rosy glow of unity your present among protesters of the Vietnam war. Just to give one example, some protesters some protesters were into burning the American flag; others were not. The reality is that large protests are inevitably messy. By focusing only on the most extreme protesters, you miss the essential character of the student protests, that they are largely peaceful and yes, quite principled in calling a halt to US complicity with Israel's genocide war on Gaza/
This post was in response to a young Columbia student who had experienced being spit on and was physically assaulted as a Jew, along with her companion who was not.
Another poster then commented and said that spitting on someone should never be part of a protest. I simply agreed.
Also , Mr Reich never said that any kind of violence , harassment, intimidation, or dehumanization of ANY kind is acceptable as protest. MY post NEVER inferred that he thought otherwise. He would never say that , and I certainly never inferred it at ALL.
As for the “rose colored” glasses of the old Vietnam war protests, I simply related one experience, that of the present day students, with part of the past that I remember well. At no time did I infer that it was all “hearts and flowers” back then either. There was incredible anger and rage directed at the draft, draft dodgers, burning of flags, and labels of communist agitators. There were physical encounters between students who were anti war and those who were pro war and anti communist. As you might remember I said that the students were for the most part united, but I also commented by no means were ALL of them in agreement and united.
No, those days were NOT all passive or non-violent. But there was also no social media campaign isolating them and fomenting the negative publicity against the positive.
That is the main driver of anger, hate, fear, and division today.
Those of us who were anti war were in the minority. It took guts to stand up like Dr. King and occasionally take a beating while resisting the urge to fight back violently. We were a minority group; don’t forget that.
I'm sorry. These are not peaceful protests. They include hurling insults of elimination and killing Jewish people. It's not right on either side to commit heinous acts of violence or threats. Which sadly this is exactly what the Palestinian protesters are doing. Furthermore have you seen the graffiti all over the school and doing things like protesting right outside principles door, defacing school property. Do you think that's all appropriate? Jewish students on campus feel very threatened right now and for good reason.
It's perfectly fine to peacefully protest violence, wrongdoings, etc. But this is a far from what's going on in college campuses.
Care to tell us how many campus protests you've been to about Gaza? Care to tell us how many campsus' have had protests? It sounds like you are talking about isolated incidents that you've seen in the media. Do you know the scope of protests and protesters? Of course not.
Has it occured to you that reporters are trying to sensationalize some of the protests? This is what they ALWAYS do. "If it bleeds, it leads."
I can remember being threatened by an angry mob of skinheads for protesting a war. I was at the back of the March of thousands of student protesters. The media taped more sensational scenes rather than thousands of peaceful protesters. It was poor reporting. It's possible that some of the bad actors were Agent Provacatuars on a mission to distract the message of the peaceful protesters.
It's really not fair to dwell or bring up the bad actions of a few, and dismiss the peaceful actions of many and their stand for peace.
Congrats on your experience and wisdom. Yes I know people in universities where this is going on. AND it is going on at many universities. AND gas extended to street, brushed, and airports - in my nearby city. Yes I know people who are concerned. No🤬I don't have your experience. Furthermore, I stopped watching the news awhile back. So from what I see and know, I don't trust that the intentions are good.
Thank you for your reply. Patricia. I was simply trying to point out that protest movements are messy, whether now or during the Vietnam War. There is much positive unity in the student protests today, as well as some ugly division.
I generally agree with you are the media. But that's a whole other topic.
I refer you to yesterday's article in the NYT "Israeli Officials Believe International Court Is Preparing Arrest Warrants Over War," which begins as follows:
"Israeli officials increasingly believe that the International Criminal Court is preparing to issue arrest warrants for senior government officials on charges related to the conflict with Hamas, according to five Israeli and foreign officials.
"The Israeli and foreign officials also believe the court is weighing arrest warrants for leaders from Hamas.
"If the court proceeds, the Israeli officials could potentially be accused of preventing the delivery of humanitarian aid to the Gaza Strip and pursuing an excessively harsh response to the Hamas-led Oct. 7 attacks on Israel, according to two of the five officials, all of whom spoke on the condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to publicly discuss the matter."
Note that the ICC is likely to issue arrest warrants for the leaders of Hamas. I think that would be fair and just.
Thank you Nina follow up to the previous statement.
Yes, ALL who have taken a part in the mass slaughter: both Hamas and Israeli, should be called out and held accountable before the world and her people.
My understanding of the definition of genocide is based on the Geneva Convention for genocide, which defines genocide as any of five "acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group." These five acts include killing members of the group, causing them serious bodily or mental harm, imposing living conditions intended to destroy the group. An example of the later is Israel's use of starvation as a weapon of war.
Hamas has the expressed goal of annihilating Israel and its citizens. Israel must defend itself against this continuing threat of genocide by destroying Hamas. Let the Palestinians in Gaza obtain refuge from their Arab neighbors while Israel roots out the terrorists that have used Gazan citizens as shields, have bases in hospitals and elaborate tunnels. If Hamas is not completely defeated they will only try again to commit genocide.
Thanks Nina for bringing the sublimal motivation for protesting. Sexual surrogacy, an orgasmic release, the "glow of unity" as you put it, social sexual communion, that's it. All else is window dressing, an excuse.
IS Getting the point and the message out there, regardless of the socio/sexual “orgasmic” release that some may believe is the only “true” motive for these actions.
They are simply attempting to communicate what their thoughts and deeply held beliefs are regarding an injustice they see and no one is really attempting to solve. The social bad actors you’ve sighted from today and those of another generation, were aplenty, and definitely caused harm: THEY were the “window dressing” you sight. The vast majority (?): were and are anything but.
My family has been career military going back 5 generations. We lost 15 family members who served from 1942-2020. Some carried weapons, some scalpels , some cameras, some rescuers from the field of battle. 5 of those 15 were lost in Vietnam. Those of us left behind from 67-75 thought it necessary to start making public the legitimate records, statements, and documents that had been hidden from public view to show what had actually occurred in South East Asia as opposed to what the public was being told was happening. That lead to my awakening and reconciliation with history as opposed to media marketing coverage.
Today , we have another generation whose sense of conscience and humanity won’t allow them to remain silent. Some of them are now forming on mine study groups to fulfill their academic goals, communicate on a daily basis with each other and stay out of confrontation as that would cause harm or danger to those they love. The remarkable thing is they are Jews, they are Muslims, they are Christians, they are Europeans, they are Americans, they are Egyptian, they are Iranian, they are atheists, they are physically disabled, they are wealthy, they are economically disadvantaged. NONE of this MATTERS to them. There formed a community that will last past the hate, the violence, the suspicion, and the fear.
Yes, they’ve been out there ob those front lines, just as their parents and grandparents were, and now they’ve found another, just as effective way to communicate their experiences and, and their viewpoints : with each OTHER and the WORLD.
THEY are most definitely NOT the “window dressing” generation William:
Hitler and Mussolini had a lot of good ideas. Good ideas are the what is peddled by charlatans.
I do agree about the Clintons, if he was a Republican he would be villified with Nixon/Reagan and Bush.
I am not a Democrat, though I have to register as one to vote in the Primary, but am an independent.
I hadn't voted since 1964, because I realized that the two parties were different sides of the same coin, but when Trump came down the escalator I got very scared and registered to vote.
The problem is that a real mass movement is built from the bottom up, and our parties are built from the top down.
The party of Trump is actually a bottom up movement, that is what populism is, and Trump tapped into it because he is a racist openly, they embraced him and made him, elevated him, because he is their avatar, there way of achieving total power, and they believe that he will rule for them, as do the Plutocrats who have been and are financing him.
I said populism is a bottom up movement, there is right wing populism and left wing populism, only left wing populism has never got past the starting gate.
FDR was one, and there was a long hiatus until Bernie, and Bernie never even got to the starting gate because the powers that be, the money powers, the Plutocrats, the corporate bosses and billionaires put their thumb on the scale for Hillary.
As I see it the DNC is not a party of the people, but it is the only alternative to the party of the fascist theocrats, misogynists, and bigots Though contained within it are elements of all, but who are restrained and constrained by the majority.
Correct. The genocide occurred on October 7. People were murdered, raped, mutilated, and kidnapped because they were Jews. Nobody is being killed in the Gaza war because of their religion, race, ethnicity, or nationality.
Not genocide a hole. Read the UN Convention for Prevention of Genocide, Article II it requires intent, sans intent subsequent articles don't apply.
You are too easily led, to easily propagandized, you are a tool
Did the Allies commit genocide when they bombed Germany? Hmm. Did they. No they killed millions, but there was no intent. War is hell and civilians get caught in the cross fire. But sans intent there is no genocide, so I advise you to stop playing loose with words..
Not altogether, Patricia. Remember the stories about servicemen being spat on and insulted when they were just walking down a street in uniform? That was 50 years ago -- so much for trust and respect (I agree with you that without them civil discourse is impossible -- I just don't know whether we can retrieve them).
Otoh, a serviceman who had that happen to him COULD have learned something about how Blacks have felt since the Civil War. I wonder if any did...
I recently discovered that there are untold millions of dollars ‘donated’ to the elite universities from the likes of Qatar and Iran. The Muslim Brotherhood’s charter specifically states their 100 year goal to impose Islam on a global scale. There is a pro Hamas movement called “Within our Lifetime.” Is that why these protests continue to grow?
Spitting on someone, in my view, is a physical assault. Spitting at someone, well, it’s shameful but doesn’t rise to the level of assault…perhaps it attempted assault. Getting flipped off, it’s a form of speech, albeit, unsophisticated and rude, but so what.
Meanwhile, I completely agree with Robert. Unless the protesters themselves become violent, there is no cause for police action.
Frankly, I believe the protests we see today on American campuses were strategically caused and are supported by Republicans and their Russian ally, Vladimir Putin. They purposefully stirred the hornets’ nest with Capital Hill hearings, doing hit jobs on university presidents (who, for whatever reason I can not understand) obliged their banana republic theatrics. It is time to allow our youth to express their views - whether we agree with them or not for they deserve to be heard.
Randi Rhodes is highlighting this as well on her radio podcasts.
Despite the incredible progress that was made ‘64-‘68, LBJ decided not to accept his party’s nomination. The DNC connection was also in Chicago of that year. MLK and RFK were both assassinated by then. Vietnam was used as an albatross around Johnson’s neck and if we are not VERY careful (?),
we will see history repeat or at least rhyme itself with Biden.
The news and the media will show you what they choose to show. These in fact have spouse eliminating israel. These have resulted intent encampments on campus. These have resulted in defacing college property. Jewish students have been verbally threatened. It would behoove anyone to check out all sources of media so you can see these things going on.
The Harvard CAPS-Harris survey shared with The Hill showed 80 percent of registered voters said they support Israel more in the war, while 20 percent said they support Hamas more.
An overwhelming number of Americans support Israel. I watch some MSNBC and get my news from many sources. With the obvious exception of Fox Nuz/Newsmax/OANN.
But MSNBC leans toward some propaganda when it comes to the pro Hamas movement. I’m very liberal, but I’m not stupid. These protests will cost us in November.
Just stop. Accusing protesters of violent behavior and threatening words is a device ALWAYS used to help people justify condemnation of free speech that makes people uncomfortable (like references to the State of Israel's massacre of more than 37,000 Palestinians in the last 7 months - almost half of which were children). When you want to deflect, you declare that peaceful protesters, opposing illegal occupation and ongoing genocide are spitting on people walking by. It's so horrifying to wrap your mind around such extreme violence and inhumanity - Israel's siege blocking Palestinians' access to the essentials of life - those who have so far survived aerial bombing, tank shelling and snipers - Israel's indiscriminate attacks on hospitals, schools and mosques - the deliberate targeting of doctors, ambulances and journalists - the total decimation of residential neighborhoods to prevent Palestinians' return "home." It's impossible to defend such immorality. To stand with the State of Israel - and support the US's arming and funding of such slaughter - people have to pretend it isn't happening. That's much easier to do when you demonize the people who speak it.
You conveniently omit that Hamas launched an unprovoked attack on civilians, murdering 1200 and abducting approximately 240 to be used as bargaining chips, commits to repeating this atrocity until the State of Israel is no more, uses the Palestinians as human shields, builds a warren of bunkers and warehouses to store weaponry under hospitals, homes and businesses, near schools etc. The horror and death that Hamas has visited upon Gaza's population could come to an end in a second if Hamas agrees to withdraw from Gaza and releases the hostages that are still living. Oh, I guess you inadvertently overlooked all of this.
The disowned son of HAMAS leader, Mosab Hassan Yousef says Palestinians are all factions/tribes of HAMAS. They are all terrorists and if they didn't have Israel to wage their wars they'd be fighting each other.
You've conveniently left out the ongoing horrors and torture that Hamas and hundreds of Palestinians families inflicted on those around them. Wonder why???
Are you so blind that you have become a Hamas sympathizer now?
FROM MEMRI TV: Hamas Leader Khaled Mashal acknowledges American college students for endorsing their genocidal goal to eliminate Israel and its Jews
John, did Prof. Reich fail to condemn anti-semitism or the killing, raping and hostage taking by Hamas? NO. Arguing agains one thing doesn't mean you don't care about the other.
That is not right with the state of Israel is doing. But does that make what the Palestinians are doing to the university campuses in this country okay? One needs to take a look at what's truly going on with graffiti, defacing property, tent encampments, and threats to eliminate israel. This is what Hamas is calling for all along, nothing new to see here. Furthermore they are obstructing streets freeways Bridges and airports. Happening in my city, also.
Excuse me but there are plenty of Jews participating in these protests. Genocide is a term well understood by the protesting students and the fact that Netanyahu and his gang of thugs are being considered for indictment by the International Criminal Court for crimes against humanity is a condemnation not to be taken lightly.
I don’t see anything wrong with what Israel is doing. Imagine fighting an enemy that wants to see their own people die for their Jihadi cause. And of course to isolate the only thriving democracy in the ME.
You don't see anything wrong with starving children and bombing hospitals?? Don't you know that withholding food, water, medical from a defenseless civilian population constitutes war crimes? Israel's committed so many war crimes they are uncountable. What kind of monster are you?
Also drop the falsehood about Israel being a democracy - it is not now and never has been. It's a Jewish supremacist state, codified by law in 2018. Everybody else is second class. Israel's been declared an apartheid state by Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, and smaller groups like the American Friends Service Committee (Quakers), and B'Tselem an Israeli human rights group.
You do know some of the protesters are Jews who oppose what Israel is doing,don’t you? But of course you think they’re all Palestinians—I didn’t know there were so many who were blonde and blue eyed (or do you think they are wearing disguises?).
I don't know whether or not there are Jewish people protesting with the Palestinian people. But I absolutely know for certain that Palestinians are getting Americans to be in their side and chant death to Israel. I do believe that Chicago is one place where that is going on. Done recall if this is in or out of university.
Wonder if you really know. I have people I know in universities who have made several comments that allude to that. Plus the history. I even saw a saw a sign that said "queers for Palestine.". Come on , that is completely ridiculous. Anyone who understands how underhanded these guys are know that someone would be tortured and killed for being anything other than heterosexual. You don't know what you don't know. I saw a sign with the f word regarding Israel just outside of the protestors' tents, and I have seen intifada graffiti on campus buildings. I have seen destruction and blocking people from entering buildings, and the like. The recruits that the professional protesters pulling in know little about the history of Israel and they are being told what to say, aka brainwashed. Probably told tobe peaceful, too. These are violent people who would use humans as a shield and would for use their own kind as weapons.
Michigan is a swing state. Dearborn Muslims call Biden “genocide Joe.” Let them leave and live in Gaza. We need to rethink our ME immigration policy. They don’t have American values at all. They may as well be MAGA supporters.
The only people who want to see innocent Palestinians die are Hamas and their allies, Iran and Russia. They got the result they wanted when they attacked on Oct. 7.
Respectfully, this didn't just start with October 7. And IDF have killed Jewish people, doctors, journalists, aid workers, innocent men, women, children and babies. We don't even know the TRUE number of Palestinian casualties. The people under the rubble of blown up building are being bull dozed into mass graves (if that). God bless the former IDF soldiers that have defected and are telling the REAL truth.
Problem is that Hamas uses their own ppl as human shields and they don't care what happens to them. Palestinians families are holding hostages both dead and alive and could release them NOW but they prefer to watch their own ppl die. Place the blame on Hamas.
That's right, it didn't start Oct 7th. The truth of everything before it points to a situation where neither Arabs nor Jews are automatically entitled to ALL the land. There was a partition plan to split the land between Arabs and Jews. The Jews accepted, the Arabs (5 Arab nations in a coalition) rejected it and started a war. This was the Arab Israeli War of 1948. This war displaced thousands of Palestinians, but no Palestinians had been displaced before that.
They were displaced by the war that they started, which they started because they believe they are entitled to ALL the land, for religious reasons.
Various coalitions of Arab nations started EVERY war with Israel, explicitly because they oppose the existence of a Jewish state, no matter what, for religious reasons.
A lack of knowledge of history makes people easy to manipulate into thinking that Palestine is the victim, when they could have had peace and statehood for the first time ever for 75 years now, if they didn't hate Jews so much.
“A lack of knowledge of history makes people easy to manipulate into thinking that Palestine is the victim, when they could have had peace and statehood for the first time ever for 75 years now, if they didn't hate Jews so much.”
That’s wrong. They were never offered a state, a viable sovereign state, of their own. Israel was imposed on them. History.
Hate exists on both sides. In the beginning Israel had the backing and the might to impose and call the shots. The might of Israel and our backing is behind this conflict. The hate has grown in Israel while they live relatively secure behind walls fences and the military. Palestinians resort to resistance. They cannot love being oppressed.
Go back farther, XYZ. Israelis and Arabs co-existed in Palestine until the Brits came in after WWI (The Balfour Decl., 2017, and a couple of docs before then that dealt with managing the region after the break-up of the Ottoman Empire). After the Brits began administering the region, the Jewish pop. grew faster, and housing, schools, etc. were established. A Jewish univ. was established, but an Arab one never was. According to one historian (Ilan Pappe), this was because of "Zionist pressure, British anti-Arab racism, and lack of resources." He added that "the colonial mentality of the British authorities who deemed the Palestinians yet another colonized people who had to be oppressed, while regarding the Zionist settlers as fellow colonialists, feared that such a university would enhance the Palestinian national movement."
So, if you want, blame the Brits for keeping a thumb on the scales.
"It's a shame but"...then you go on to pull out something from 2014 to insinuate Israel is innocent? "The only people" .... The shame is that you defend one side and ignore the other.. all the hate coming from the Israeli side, and more shamefully the violence towards Arabs ,Palestinians. Shame!
The Holocaust is relevant to this situation. So is the Nabka. Both are because they are still the events that are behind the high emotions that led to October 7th. This conflict has never been resolved and so it goes on; it reverberates, ripples.
I just don't think this is correct. There is wisespread hatred amongst most Israelis toward Palestinians, and the government policy indicates this as well. I encourage you to listen to Meir Baruchin in this podcast with Chris Hayes:
I googled and asked how many antisemitic actions have been taken by the college protesters. I could not find any article to answer this, but did find this. “ Northeastern said in a statement that the demonstration, which began two days ago, had become “infiltrated by professional organizers” with no affiliation to the university and antisemitic slurs, including “kill the Jews,” had been used.”. https://apnews.com/article/gaza-war-campus-protests-966eb531279f8e4381883fc5d79d5466
It is my understanding the students are calling for universities to separate themselves from any companies that are advancing Israel’s military efforts in Gaza — and in some cases from Israel itself. Of course spitting on Jewish students and giving them the finger should not be part of a protest. We know from previous protests and union strikes that a strategy of the opposition is to infiltrate, behave badly and blame the protestors. We should verify the facts before condemning protestors who are trying to call for human rights.
It sounds like there will be a two state solution finally, if Hamas will allow it. Maybe that will solve the long gong problem. That said...
People seem to have forgotten history. I mean, they can't remember back to Oct 7 even.
Please. Please explain to me what all those tunnels were for if not for military action to accomplish their long time goal of exterminating Israel. I mean, it's like Trump. Listen to what they say. They mean it.
Look, this is just more warfare, demanding the surrender of Israel.
Keep in mind that the Palestinians have been intentionally building one of the most evil weapons of mass destruction ever devised. A population bomb.
There won't be a 2 state solution because Netanyahu will not allow it. Various Arab countries have proposed a 2 state solution during the 1990's, 2000's, but always scuttled by Israel and the US
Perhaps you are focusing on the most isolated of events to avoid the fact that these students and professors have been attacked by police for bringing attention to the fact, and I do mean fact, that Israel is a terrorist theocracy. You join the state in suppressing democracy.
Barry, do you mean the current Israeli govt is a terrorist theocracy or the nation as a whole is? If Bibi’s actions are hugely unpopular in Israel, doesn’t that imply the former?
Citation for what? That's true it's hard to believe that humans support murder of children, execution after torture of doctors, starvation. The perps are inhuman.
Hard to believe that “most Israelis” support massacres. You said it, so prove it. I thought “most Israelis” don’t like Bibi. If that’s wrong, I’ll be very sad that so many people can approve something so horrible. But your statement without proof isn’t enough.
What the campus idiots don't know, and neither do substack idiots who join in the chorus is that the riots are instigated by rich spoiled Arab students, here on their daddy's buck and the enabling professors are beneficiaries of Arab oil money.
What is disgusting to me, that there is no nation on earth more Misogynistic and hostile to gays than those ruled by or are majority Muslims, be it Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Iran, Malaysia, Afghanistan or Pakistan.
Iran tortures, rapes and slow strangles girls for improper wear of the hijab, and the student left, the campus idiots are quiet as a bed bug, no campus demonstrations for women's rights or gay rights in Islam... crickets, because the dumb asses are enthralled by their Muslim peers.
They are also flaming hypocrites, they demand free speech for themselves, then deny speech to those who disagree, either having them canceled or calling them foul names.
And virtually all of them are spoiled products of the lucky sperm club, to be able to afford to attend Columbia, Harvard or even UCLA.
Serious students whose parents had to work, or who are going into debt and working their way through college aren't in the crowds, and if they are then that is because they are witless sheep seeking peer approval, or horny young men hoping to get laid, like in the free love movement.
Last week I listened to a Jewish, first-year Columbia law student spokesperson for a 25-minute segment, who had a very different story to tell than what has been coming out of mainstream news, a pattern that the "why" question needs to be applied to. People might want to copy this title into the YouTube search box and hear what she has to say: "LIVE From Encampment: Jewish Columbia Student NOT Afraid"
Barbara, spitting on anyone and shooting the bird to anyone should not be part of any protest. I know that has occurred, but that is not even close to the majority of what has happened during the anti-Gaza War campus protests.
Spitting on people is a misdemeanor. My dictionary says, "a misdemeanor is a crime less serious than a felony. Nowhere – either on or off any college campus – is a misdemeanor a protected right of free speech.
Ditto on the age; 77 to be exact. I had no love for Nixon, but he does get credit for reestablishing diplomatic relations with China , and in proposing a guaranteed minimum income administered via the IRS in place of multiple social agencies he was ahead of his time. Watergate and "Tricky Dicky?" No comment!
Reagan I liked and respected. He didn't pretend he knew everything and he had the good sense to find, listen to and keep good advisors. Contrast that with our former President who hired, ignored and fired almost all of his competent advisors and treated them like greenie, reality candidates on The Apprentice!
First, whether you like the guy or not, at least learn to spell that former President's last name "Reagan."
Second, if Reagan was an idiot's ideal saying or doing whatever he was told to, I suppose that makes TRUMP an "f"ing genius because he says or does NOTHING he has been told to do! He who knows everything better than anybody, God included!
I remember thinking that an inordinate number of Reagan’s cabinet members were indicted by grand juries for corruption. He did not surround himself with good, upstanding people.
You might be correct Dr. I don't recall it that way, but I haven't looked it up either. I do recall Reagan's foreign policy successes, especially with Gorbachev; revitalizing a badly depleted military; and some (but not all) of his tax reforms. As for "Teflon Ron," he did avoid some potential problems, but often others accepted responsibility for his actions. Loyalty given by choice as opposed to the loyalty by coercion insisted upon by Trump, whom I often credit with entirely ending any and all competition for who was the worst US President ever!
Their anger has been misdirected toward Israel, when the real monsters are Hamas. Palestinians should be resisting Hamas, not condemning Israel. The students should be supporting democracies worldwide, not a theocratic autocracy like Palestine. Hamas manipulated the whole war to ensure there would be excessive civilian casualties. They trapped them there. They did not store in supplies knowing full well what they were about to do. Israel warns before retaliating to take out the site where Hamas fired rockets hurting and killing innocent Israeli civilians, but Hamas would not allow the civilians to escape because they wanted the excessive civilian casualties. They could end this war today by agreeing to the cease fire and releasing the hostages. They won't because their mission, stated in writing, is to kill all the Jews in Israel and then in the world. Our ally is Israel, a democracy that includes over 2 million Arab citizens. The millions of dollars in propaganda is designed to spread vicious lies, calling Israel an apartheid nation when there are actually many Arab nations with zero Jews in its population. Israel is our ally, Palestine is not. Palestine is barred from joining the UN because their theocratic autocracy has an evil agenda. They are not owed land. If they were, Jordan or Egypt would have given it to them. Why is Israel expected to be responsible for enemy civilians in a war? This is unprecedented. Hamas is the one who just attacked the pier America provided for humanitarian aid. Israel did admit when they made a mistake and aid workers were killed. Still, Hamas is the one who created the whole crisis and they alone are responsible for every single death in this war.
Please the only Trump-like comment I see is yours. My statement needs no proof. The things you’re spouting are proven propaganda. Sorry you don’t understand that.
Again with the same Trump-like accusation void of verifiable sources. Everything I said is the absolute truth. Look up any part of it and you will soon find credible sources for every single word. All you did is reword your previous comment.
Actually, not. I have read journalist accounts in reputable publications which you, yourself, could easily find if you wanted to see the truth. There seems to be some investment in believing standing against Israel is somehow not traitorous of democracy. Look it up. The UN will not allow Palestine to join because of their written intent to kill all of the Jews, first in Israel and then in the world. That alone should open your eyes as to who should be believed, and it isn't Hamas or their well-paid agents of propaganda.
Anti Semite or anti Palestinian civilian, it's the same. Like street gangs with different colour kerchief hanging from back-pocket, side-ism, enough to destroy an individual, is arbitrary points of view, all gone if equity were a goal. "They, them," as if Piggy-in-the-Middle game were fair. "You may have these types of freedoms, but not those," judge, jury, executioners, government of Netanyahu, or just himself, seems not answerable to the people of Israel who want to see peace. Shrill, shouting, to see "them" wiped out, is that nowhere?, "they deserve it," a disturbing illustration.
Amber: Saying something is "propaganda" without proof makes it merely your opinion. Which you're entitled to, but don't be surprised if other commenters don't break out "Yay, Amber!" banners.
Jean-The EVIDENCE is, as implied, written by YOU yourself.....talk about "trump-like"~sheesh. We need not ignore the evidence you yourself provide, merely because you don't LIKE that we SEE you for who you EVIDENTLY ARE.
I strive to tell the truth in all of my comments. I utilized reputable sources that you could also check. Stories by actual journalists with decades of experience, not talking heads on entertainment news stations or publications.
I may be wrong, but it seems to me that Jean Knowlton and Jan Churchwell (and several others following Reich's Substack) may be paid to spin this type of propaganda. Maybe they know the facts about the occupation, expulsion, and the massacre underway - maybe they don't know and they're desperately trying to ignore it. But most of this back-and-forth is a waste of time (distraction) because they're obviously very determined to pretend the US isn't facilitating Israel's genocide of the Palestinian population. Imagine the mind-games a person (like President Biden) has to play to ignore such inhumanity and injustice. It takes some serious self-deception to sustain such loyalty to a nation state waging a brutal war on the civilian population living in territory that state illegally occupies. It takes huge effort to rationalize that kind of hypocrisy. Anyway, it doesn't seem worth the effort to argue or try to educate them (I'm reminding myself).
Actually there is proof of a lot that Jean says. We are not helping the Palestinians at all. Anyone who supports Hamas is brainwashed by them. The ignorance here is unbelievable as well as the double standard.
Who supports Hamas??? There are brain washed people but it’s not those of us who understand that people live and die in a military state under less than humane conditions. Two things can be true at once. None of us support Hamas and the Palestinians are not free.
Amber. Yours is perfect response. It's 2 sides, all crazy as each other. Most of Israel can see Netanyahu sails towards exterminating and says, No that's them. They don't see it. I can't understand.
Starving Palestinian people, hostages, stuck under boot of Israel political agenda (most Israeli's are appalled by their government, am I wrong?), in order to get your way doesn't help feed the hostages.
Tell palestinians and their families to release the hostages (even the dead ones they are keeping). Tell hamas to stop using its own ppl as human shields. Go ahead and demand they release them. So far not one protester seems able to do this....
As I posted, I do. They appear to be the only attempt to effectuate a change in the status of the oppressed majority. They have succeeded in putting on hold the normalization of Muslim countries WRT the Zionist entity, and created increased action by the "axis of resistance".
How insulting, so I'm brainwashed. I support Hamas, but think they "shot themselves in their feet", by not ensuring all attacked only the IDF and police, and took only young IDF age male hostages. Their anger stoked vengeance, instead of careful action.
US classified intelligence -> Trump -> Russia -> Hamas -> attack on Israel on Putin's birthday
Iran appears to be involved, too.
Meanwhile Netanyahu ignored all warnings by Egypt, Jordan, etc. about an imminent attack. His motives are unclear, but he seems to be using this war as a way to stay in power regardless of the international consequences.
Yes, I read that story, and then the news stories that debunked it. Netanyahu did not know or have advance knowledge of this attack. He is not my choice of leadership, but Hamas actually shaped it. People vote in these types of leaders when they are afraid and who caused the fear? Hamas. There was movement afoot to remove Netanyahu, but then Hamas started this war because they realized they could use his response to turn world opinion against Israel. It's too bad students are not wise enough to see through the pure diabolical evil that is Hamas. While Netanyahu is not the best leadership to have in place right now, he is nowhere near the level of evil that is Hamas. Everyone should stop falling for the Hamas shell game where suddenly they stand aside from what they just caused, and blame Israel instead. Kind of like Trump and the January 6 riot he incited.
Following your logic, would mean world opinion turns now against Netanyahu, government sunk, will result in a conciliatory effort. FEED them and caged come on-side with vision for solution-seeking. Policy of starving enrages them more. Hamas has power among population because a) opposition means death; and, b) fighting either one of your captors results in death. //"There was movement afoot to remove Netanyahu, but then Hamas started this war because they realized they could use his response to turn world opinion against Israel," is victim-blaming. //Israel HAD steady Intel-reports that preparations were happening on the border, border guards died; the one that survived talked about placing-bets on who would be on-shift when it came to pass--You imagine Oct 7 was a surprise? Just as plausible is that Netanyahu allowed it to happen. //See? Same as your theory that Hamas planned their own deaths in order to screw-around with Netanyahu's reputation. Illogical. Netanyahu was COMPLACENT and thus complicit. He can wear that. Kick him out, stop the slaughter.
The Jewish state is hardly under existential threat with the 4th most powerful military in the world, and the power of the US behind it.
Israel isn't much of an ally- draining us of huge amounts of money that could be put to much better use back home, and trying to drag us into a war with Iran.
I’m sure you can understand the perilous nature of a very small country surrounded by enemies from all sides. Fortunately for Israel, Muslim Arabs are inept soldiers.
I would say the IDF are inept. They kill far more civilians than Hamas.
Various Arab countries made proposals during the 1990s and 2000s to recognize Israel in exchange for a 2 state setup, in essence a recognition of Palestine by Israel. Israel wouldn't even consider it. So much for your poor dear little country "surrounded by enemies on all sides".
Young North American Jews are FAR too smart to buy into it.
Too many former IDF soldiers are telling the stories of the atrocities they committed against innocents in Gaza. Here are two words for you -- courtesy of Zionist Israel: MASS GRAVES.
Yeah, there's a lot of lying going on. There are Jewish students protesting. They can't even see their own anti Semitism. Thank you for helping to call them out.
This whole thread illustrates what happens when we demonize one side in this conflict. Both Hamas and Israeli leaders have been despicable. Both ought to step down since they have demonstrated clearly that they can't lead. When we point fingers we're just doing what the leadership of both sides have been doing.
So the Palestinian people aren't allowed to defend themselves against the occupying forces🤦♀️ Did you root for the resistance in Star Wars? If so, you're doing it wrong now.
OMG, yours is nut-shell analysis. Both as bad as each other. Protest is not "sided," it's against both. Propaganda uses Us v Them, instead of STOP, just stop.
Social media and the isolation bubble it creates where the indoctrination creates an echo chamber is the worst kind of weapon used to incite hate and rage. None of it based on verifiable evidence or documentation.
This is how racial genocide begins.
Getting out of this kind of mindset is imperative to slowing this cycle down and stopping it from becoming a monster that no one can stop.
You sure have it backwards - the IDF has tortured and murdered hospital patients, workers and doctors. It's completely destroyed healthcare infrastructure in Gaza. The mainstream media in this country is overwhelmingly pro-Israel so it is not a credible source.
I abhor the Gazan deaths and the nightmare unfolding. But every word you said is a fact. Billions of dollars have been fed to the Palestinians from Qatar and Iran. How was that money spent? Tunnels and rockets fired into Israel. Please ask Israeli kids how many times they have had to run to a safe room as their communities were attacked.
This whole exercise in terrorism is a tool of the radical religious leaders in Iran. And their partner Putin is chuckling as it distracts us from his decimation of a neighbor. Where are the demonstrations for Ukraine?
I agree that students have every right to peacefully protest as long as it doesn't interfere with the studies of others. As long as it doesn't involve antisemitic behavior. As long it is actually students and not outsiders.
There are two sides to every story. And this one is no exception. If I were to witness my family being slaughtered on October 7th, would I be an man of peace? If I were to have dragged the dead bodies of my family out of a bombed building in Gaza, would I support Hamas?
Someone needs to break the pattern. Just as they did in Ireland.
Sorry, not my intention. IMO, Netanyahu and his radical members of the cabinet have been monstrous. And the complaints by Palestinians for decades about their condition has been dismissed for much too long.
But...terrorist violence by Hamas has plunged them deeper into awful circumstances.
I don't have the answer other than perhaps every woman just yelling STOP at every man.
Israel was attacked by land, sea and air on 10/7. The genocidal maniacs tortured these people’s dogs. The pictures were gruesome. The genocidal Palestinians killed every man, woman, child and BABIES. And then they went home to celebrate. This is not difficult people ! Talk about moral decay in the West.
Have you seen the gruesome pictures of starving Palestinian children, and children with limbs blown off from incessant Israeli airstrikes? The genocidal Israeli snipers kill children as young as 3 years (and up of course), ambulance drivers, women waving white flags. Talk about moral decay in Israel.
Israel has killed hundreds of aid workers and journalists, and bombed homes, hospitals, schools, universities into rubble. Israel has grabbed Palestinian land for its own lebensraum. Palestinians are owed the land they live on; Israel is not. Also, 68% of Israelis polled think the human beings in Gaza should be starved to death. Cruel and ghoulish. There are plenty of atrocities on both sides.
Pro-Israel groups in this country have spent decades indoctrinating Americans with the notion that Palestinian is synonymous with terrorist, so we will always favor Israel. They have been quite successful.
Help me understand how a theocratic fascist government like HAMAS has a functioning free press. I keep hearing about how Israelis killed 100 Palestinian ‘reporters.’ An absolute charade. And I think people are catching on to this.
Yes, send in the cops and put down this dangerous spectacle. MAGA Mike made more sense than many in my Democratic Party. That is embarrassing and despicable. And it will help usher in fascism in November. Just like the adherents of Islam have stated for decades. The US is the Great Satan after all.
Jean, yes, a "real monster is Hamas." Consider, Palestinians can't "resist Hamas" because Israel brands them ALL. Students DO "support democracies," but Netanyahu is a political animal, self-styled, mean-spirited, blinded with rage and enraged advisors, not problem solvers, not conciliatory for innocent people that are not similar to him. "Me and mine," is Netanyahu AT THIS POINT.
Hamas?, "trapped them there"? Consider, hours of delay at frontier simply to go to WORK, Israel was boss--pot boiled, no surprise! "Israel warns before retaliating," is naive. Israeli soldiers can be indiscriminate, and Netanyahu finds he has no power over loose-cannon-rogue troops, and with that Netanyahu is unconcerned. Hamas cannot "end this war if they want," caged; but Netanyahu could.
Israel's "mission, stated in writing, is to kill," you pretend not to understand, it obviously runs both ways. "I have friends that are Arabs," seems naive, too. Consider, there are 2 classes of people, tribes. "They are not owed land," meantime settlers, shrill or calculating, make entitled decisions to kick Palestinians off land that Settlers decide to develop, and courts are Israel's--can't win there.
"Why is Israel expected to be responsible for civilians dead?", um--because they are busying killing them. Israel's first "mistake" was as jailer of a population of underclass. Civilians are NOT "alone responsible." Self-concept is as victim, instead share it around and you'll see, Netanyahu is political and continuing to put the boot in. "STOP it all," is on him. He can't. He needs population and advisors to pressure him to, "Think different." Rudderless, angry. It's on him.
It’s a war VJ and it’s tragic. Mistakes are inevitable. The difference is intent. If Israel wanted to kill every Palestinian they absolutely could…in one day. But they don’t. Imagine if the opposite were true. Would HAMAS/IRAN destroy Israel if they could. Of course. And they vow to never stop trying. That’s genocidal intension.
How did that “jail” become a jail rather than a border? Palestinians have had choices over a long time. Each time violence from them gets them pushed behind another fence. It’s not my choice, I observe what they have done. To misunderstand the situation makes this terrible condition worse for all. https://youtu.be/AkPqR-Vm2ss?si=KWc_URsTtbbuyX5y
I must agree. I also agree that peaceful protest is a vital part of college campuses, but how peaceful are these protests when graduation ceremonies are being cancelled and on campus learning is shut down? When it is the Jewish students being told to “go home” for their safety?
Palestinians have been methodically killed for over 75 years...jailed, houses torn down, businesses destroyed...education denied...young children jailed and so many detained without rights. Speaking out about it is not antisemitic. My husband's family was one of them that were forced from their homes and business at a young age only to be a refugees for decades. They did nothing wrong. The world turned a blind eye to the Palestinian plight for almost a century now. None of us believe that the Jewish should be murdered. But..we also agree that neither should the Palestinians be murdered. I am glad to see that the youth of the world are brave enough, care enough and are actively participating in social discourse to stand up for the rights of others. It gives us hope for the future.
Cathie, I agree that all the destruction, displacement, and killing are horrible, but I can't balance the death counts: 1) About 24,162 Israelis and 85,902 Palestinians since 1948 (per Quora); 2) 6,000,000 Jews during WWII.
The genocide of the Jewish people. How many brilliant minds were undoubtedly lost in the Third Reich ? I’m not Jewish. But we all lost something that can never be replaced. I feel that loss too. I hope I’m not being insensitive saying this.
The Jewish people and their culture must be preserved in perpetuity.
Jan, the Palestinians shouldn't pay for Germany's actions. That's absurd. And 750,000 Palestinians were forced off their land without even any compensation. In fact they were treated very brutally.
I've been dismayed by that, but from what I've read if the Palestinians leave, as Israel wants, then they've lost their land forever. It would be difficult to take in so many refugees. I think they should open the Rafah gates to let food in and allow people to leave. Egypt is no doubt afraid of angering the psychopathic government of Israel with its unlimited gifts of weapons from the US.
Rich Arabs have had 75 years to help Palestinians build an economy. When did they EVER?
Unless you have contacts in Egypt or other Arab countries, please don’t say silly things like they’re “no doubt afraid.” They aren’t afraid to supply troops and weapons. Where does Hamas get the rockets they regularly & indiscriminately fire into Israel? Why do they have rockets & not tools or trucks?
If protesters are being egged on, how much more incentive do unfriendly nations have to keep an entire region unsettled?
The UN offered Jews in Palestine a homeland, which was accepted. The UN offered Arabs in Palestine a homeland which was NOT accepted. Why should that be the Jews' problem? "Kill all the Jews" is an Arab war cry. Who should pay for it?
About the numbers: Don't put words in my mouth. I said (basically) that 85K+ dead isn't as many as 6,000,000. I was replying to someone who said the number of Palestinian dead since 1948 is horrible. Of course it is, and I said so. I hurt for everyone who's lost someone to violent death, whatever the method. But I hurt more for a group that has been persecuted repeatedly merely because it exists. That's my choice, and I stand by it. You make your own choices.
Several people here have asked why Arab nations couldn't help Palestinian Arabs. What's your answer to that?
The real monsters are the leaders of BOTH sides. If we take sides aren't we just doing what the leaders of both sides are doing? It's not helpful to demonize one side. The leadership of both sides have been despicable.
Julia, one is a vicious racist killing machine made up mostly if Europeans and Americans. The other are indigenous people whose land, olive groves, homes and culture have been literally stolen. Britain gave away the Palestinians' land so that the Jews would leave Europe and move there. They said they did not belong in Europe, which was true antisemitism.
Why should Palestinians support Israel?? Israel steals their land, drives them from their homes, burns their crops, treats them as second class citizens with over 60 laws on the books restricting their rights, incarcerates them indefinitely (including children) without charges or trial (presently over 9000), subjects them to 600 checkpoints in Gaza alone restricting any movement. The 17 year siege of Gaza has destroyed the economy leading to extreme poverty, as Israel restricts what goes in and what goes out. And the nutcase Jewish settlers, squatters really, in the West Bank, kill Palestinians and steal their lands and homes with impunity, all under the watchful eye of the IDF.
Hamas' charter states it is not against the Jewish religion, but against Israel's occupation, subjugation, and dispossession of Palestinians for the last 75 years. It has no plans to take over the rest of the world.
Palestinians are not "owed" land because it was theirs to begin with.
Israel is not now and has never been a democracy; it's a Jewish supremacist state formalized by law in 2018. It exists for Jews and everyone else is second class. Israel's been declared an apartheid state by Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, and smaller groups like the American Friends Service Committee (Quakers) and B'Tselem, and Israeli human rights group.
In case you didn't know, denying civilians food, water, medical care are war crimes, as is using white phosphorus on populated areas. This was all done by Israel, not Hamas.
Israel isn't much of an ally. It is draining us of money which could be much better spent here at home. And it is trying its darndest to drag us into a war with Iran and the entire Middle East.
Israel was warned of the Oct. 7 attacks multiple times in the months leading up to it, including by the Egyptian government, Israel has a very sophisticated intelligence service and it's hard to believe it disbelieved all those reports.
If you look at what Israel is actually doing instead of what it says it is doing, it's clear that this is not about Hamas, but rather the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians so it can do another massive land grab.
Resist Hamas the same way that the people of North Korea have been able to resist Kim Jun Un? The way the people of Iran can resist the Ayatollah? The way the Chinese could resist Mao Tse Tung? How about the people of Russia resisting Joseph Stalin? You need to come back to the real world! Hamas took over Palestine, then executed the former leadership. It is not a democracy! There is simply no excuse for the indiscriminate slaughter of innocent women and children. Keep in mind that it is not necessary for one to be an Arab in order to be a terrorist.
The Hamas militants are freedom fighters -- The South Africans know an apartheid genocidal regime when they see it. Hence the partial agreement by the International Court of Justice.
It's complex, few people can express a nuanced understanding of both sides without being labeled one thing or another. agreed, it's not antisemitism to express outrage at what's happening in Gaza. Blaming Jews for Netanyahu is like blaming Americans for Trump, when over half of us detest him.
These protests are anti-Israel. Calling them anti-Semitic, is just a way of vilifying the protests. Anyone with any intelligence is not protesting Judaism, but rather genocide.
The ICC says that Israel is plausibly committing genocide and most people in the world can see it except for extreme pro Israel fanatics. You call Palestinians genocidal and yet they haven't committed nearly the murders Israel has.
I have a heart most definitely. But it’s not wise to let emotions override logic and reason. Israelis didn’t want this war. And may I remind you Israelis are suffering also. I can’t even watch an ASPCA commercial without running from the room. I want to send them all my money. That wouldn’t be wise.
The truth is we don’t know the true death toll in Gaza. Hamas does not separate combatants from civilians. Also, there is an element of manipulation of our emotions that Hamas preys upon. They don’t value the lives of their people. The UN (which I once had great respect for) is corrupt. In matters of genocide, intent matters. If evidence of genocide arises, I will admit I’m wrong. It will have to come from more than one source.
The current protests may be anti-Israel, but what's coming out is that anti-Semitic harassment and violence is increasing on campuses.
I doubt any pro-Palestinian protesters are asking Jewish students about their politics before beating them or spitting on them or yelling anti-Semitic slurs, whatever.
Anti Muslim attacks and smears have increased exponentially since Oct. 7 yet this is hardly covered in western media. One of the worst examples is the murder of a 6 year old American Palestinian boy in Chicago.
I'm in Chicago, and that horrible event got LOTS of coverage. For a few days.... But the killer was arrested immediately so there was nothing to follow up about. Also, when you don't see a story getting "legs," maybe the family has requested respect for their privacy.
I agree with you in principle about "directional bias," but this thread is about anti-Semitism and campus protests, not the USA's general appalling human rights dichotomy.
Hey, Robert. I have a substack called The Gene Pool. I wrote on this subject a few days ago. Here is what I said, in response to a reader question. -- Gene Weingarten
Q: What do you think of the arrest of students at Columbia and NYU for protesting the war on Gaza?
A: Glad you asked. I think that the faculty should demand the ouster of the presidents of those two universities.
These were peaceful protests; heated, but peaceful. Trespassing is not ordinarily an arrestable crime, and has historically been used as a tool for legitimate dissent. Universities are places to learn and hone critical thought, which is based upon intellectual conflict.
The underlying fact here is a dreadful, merciless war upon an innocent citizenry; mostly women and children are dead. Wherever you stand, it is clearly an issue for debate and moral parsing and protest. I’m sure there is vile antisemitic verbiage among some of the protesters, but that should be part of the critical dialogue, a teaching moment. Colleges shouldn’t punish thought, even noxious thought, absent noxious action. Jewish students must be protected and their voices heard, but these debates should be encouraged, not subject to police batons and zip-tie handcuffs at behest of the schools.
I am a child of the 1960s. The statements and actions of the these universities are no different from the self-righteous, implacable, threatening voices of authority I heard in the 1960s, when the issue was Vietnam, except there is a crucial and more ennobling motive here. The 60s protests were in large part selfish: We didn’t want to die in a deeply unpopular, strategically unsound, ultimately pointless, racist war. These protests are on behalf of people ten thousand miles away. They come in reaction to their administrators kowtowing to insidious pressure from far-right politicians. This should be a crucible for critical debate.
I have long bewailed the social inactivism of modern college students. For years I’ve wanted to see a spark of the same passion and furor that drove us in the 1960s, rather than effete navel-gazing whining about microaggressions and such. Well, it has come. Here it is, at last, and I applaud it.
I do wonder how old these university presidents are. If they weren't part of Vietnam protests they might not understand how important they were and that cracking down with threats and arrests is counterproductive.
The protestors of the Vietnam era have been vindicated. History has proven that to be true. Pimping for Islamic terrorism is laughable were it not so utterly dangerous.
Maybe so, but presumably current presidents can read and have staffs that can fill them in on similar historical events. The average age of a college president is 60, so even though most of them would have been alive in the late 60's-early 70's, they wouldn't know much about Viet Nam except what they read or were told by older people.
Shafik isn't an American so her knowledge might be less, but born-and-bred American college presidents should be able to draw parallels.
The facts are that the United States government is fostering the Israeli government’s genocide of Palestinian civilians, and like students before them, the students are exercising their duty to protest.
Campus protests began after Hamas’ October 7 attack on Israel, when militants killed about 1,200 people, most of them civilians, and took roughly 250 hostages. Since then, Israel has killed more than 34,000 Palestinians in the Gaza Strip; at least two-thirds of the dead are children and women.
Protesting against the Netanyahu slaughter of innocents is not anti-Semitism. It’s also the case that anti-Semitic events are happening now and have happened, and those events do in fact stink of immoral, unethical, unacceptable violence, and historic ignorance.
Student demands vary. Student governments at Columbia, Harvard Law, Rutgers and American University have passed resolutions calling for an end to investments and academic partnerships with Israel. Other demands include universities’ divestment from companies such as military weapons manufacturers that are supplying arms to Israel, cessation of accepting research money from Israel for projects that aid the country’s military efforts, and/or halting investments in endowments with money managers who profit from Israeli companies or contractors.
These are fact-based analyses by students, who have learned well.
One thing in particular should come across Speaker Mike Johnson's event horizon: it is not the business of the Speaker of the House to tell a university President to resign, nor to tell the world that the President of the United States should tell a university President to resign. It is the business of the Speaker of the House to advance legislation that benefits the People of the United States of America. There is a great pile of legislation that has not been getting anywhere since the Republican Party took the majority in the House. Republicans in the House and Senate killed a major bipartisan border policy bill. Reforms to bedrock programs like Medicare and Social Security are desperately needed but no closer to getting passed. In 2023, the House passed 27 bills. No more. Compare this to the 713 bills passed by Congress during one year of the Reagan administration, 1987–1988.
Mr. Johnson is working for us, on our dimes. It would be good to get our money’s worth.
What happens when the National Guard is called out against student protesters? The Kent State shootings were the killing of four and wounding of nine unarmed college students by the Ohio National Guard on the Kent State University campus. The shootings took place on May 4, 1970, during a rally opposing the expanding involvement of the Vietnam War into Cambodia by United States military forces as well as protesting the National Guard presence on campus and the draft.
Twenty-eight National Guard soldiers fired about 67 rounds over 13 seconds, killing four students and wounding nine others, one of whom suffered permanent paralysis. Students Allison Krause, 19, Jeffrey Glenn Miller, 20, and Sandra Lee Scheuer, 20, died on the scene, while William Knox Schroeder, 19, was pronounced dead at Robinson Memorial Hospital in nearby Ravenna shortly afterward.
The shootings triggered immediate and massive outrage on campuses around the country. It increased participation in the student strike that began on May 1. Ultimately, more than 4 million students participated in organized walk-outs at hundreds of universities, colleges, and high schools. The shootings and the strike affected public opinion at an already socially contentious time over the role of the United States in the Vietnam War.
Eight of the shooters were charged with depriving the students of their civil rights, but were acquitted in a bench trial. The trial judge stated, "It is vital that state and National Guard officials not regard this decision as authorizing or approving the use of force against demonstrators, whatever the occasion of the issue involved. Such use of force is, and was, deplorable."
Your facts are fiction. No matter how many time you say genocide and click your heels three times you won’t be in Kansas and there is no genocide being committed by Israel. Don’t you think they know they are under a microscope? It would be suicide for them. I can’t believe anyone would believe Israelis PURPOSELY killed the aid workers either.
One day real soon the governments of Western democracies will travel to Israel to learn how to fight urban warfare with ISIS while aiming perfectly to avoid civilian injuries and death.
So the killing of 34,000 citizens is not genocide, Julia? Here is the definition of genocide: the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group. You're not a very useful witness, kid.
What evidence do you have that Israel is seeking to exterminate the Palestinians ? Israelis alerted Palestinians with texts and leaflets warning them to leave before they bombed the tunnels built under Gaza. Palestinians have claimed they were victims of genocide for years. The population of Gaza more than doubled in the last two decades. ALSO, the death stats are provided by HAMAS, a terrorist organization. The number you provide does not take into account the combatants killed vs civilians killed.
Between 4/7 and 7/19 1994, 500,000 to 800,000 Rwanda Tutsis were massacred by the Hutu militia. THAT was a genocide. Between 1933 and 1945 six million Jews were systematically exterminated by the Nazi regime because of who their ancestors were. Medical experiments were conducted on Jews. Heinous medical experiments with no anesthesia. Israel had a right to respond to being attacked after on 10/7/2023.
You got any other bright ideas for me Martha. People die in war, children too. Any other country would have attacked Hamas without mercy. Or maybe there is latent antisemitism lingering in that brain of yours kid.
Not intensionally delusional Lisa. Time will tell. I can admit my fault. I don’t want anyone hurt or killed. But I love the Jewish people and I’m not even Jewish. Go figure!
I love the Jewish people who are willing to see that Israel is very guilty of atrocities and it's whole founding was at the expense of another population and the theft of their land and the dehumanization of their people. I especially revere those who are willing to see that Israel was founded as a way to get Jews out of Europe, not to rescue them,and also as a way for the West to have a base in the middle east. It was an outrageous case of Britain giving the Palestinians' land to the Zionists. Look who got screwed.
You are correct, Professor Reich. And condemning Netanyahu is not antisemitism either. Even the Israelis condemn Netanyahu. It is no different than condemning the jihadists while respecting Islam, What those students (and me) are condemning are wrongful actions on behalf of Netanyahu and Hamas
Jihad and Martyrdom are the very definition of Islam. That’s why we’re in this mess to begin with ! Literally no other religion on Earth commands people to die and kill for Allah to collect their 72 virgins. And how could you possibly defend strapping suicide vests on tiny children while celebrating that child’s death. The most perverse ideology and rotten to the core.
That may be your definition, Julia. But I have a number of very dear Muslim friends who say Mohamed preached peace and love, in their view the Jihadists are like our Christian fundamentalists any fight for their religion is good. For me - I'm an atheist - I have no god, just an innate moral and ethical direction.
I do apologize Fay. Political Islam scares me if I’m being honest. I’m terrified the protests on college campuses and in other places will bring Trump back into power. It may be too late anyway. I’m agnostic myself. There are wonderful Muslim individuals out there who are genuinely excellent human beings. I’ll do better in the future. I’ll be more careful Fay. Thank you~
No need for apology Julia. Your fear is understandable. The middle east is a bewildering problem for all of us. On the one hand we have Iran supporting and supplying terrorist groups to attack not just Israel but other Countries that are clearly Islam (Muslim) and with the Houthis - pirates who attack international shipping. On the other hand we have Netanyahu a man equally evil to our own trump. Netanyahu has publicly stated his intention to kill ever inhabitant of Gaza no matter age, gender, or participation in the war. And as all of us know two wrongs never make a right. For myself, I'd like to see Netanyahu facing trial in Israel for which he has already been indicted on fraud and corruption. The only reason he is not in prison is he got himself elected Prime Minister again. I'd also like to see Iran totally isolated from the rest of the world, no trade, no travel, no foreign ministries, total isolation. Without Iran to back them Hamas., Hezbollah and the Houthis would collapse - problem solved.
As a Kent grad I fully support your comment. The killings on May 4th changed the campus dramatically. The wounds still run deep to this day. But, the university has become better and stronger and that day had an impact on ending the Vietnam War. RIP to four dead in Ohio.
I can't help but get annoyed when people say tge Palestinians should stand against Hamas! With what, they have no guns or army to go against them. I have extended family in Gaza and it breaks my heart to hear that the children are hungry and so scared.
I agree that it's useless to say Palestinian Gazan's should stand against Hamas. They'd be killed for opposing Hamas, we know that is true. It should break everyone's hearts everywhere to learn of the suffering of children in war. What kind of cold hearted person doesn't feel compassion for children -- for non-combatants! -- in a war zone?
Read the statistics. Over 80% of Palestinians approve of what Hamas did on 10/7/2023. They don’t deserve to die. But they elected Hamas. They hate Jews because they are Jews. They bear some responsibility.
And this poll was taken where? Under the rubble of what were there homes? Dying in hospitals because there are no medical supplies? Being gunned down in the streets as they follow Israel’s orders to evacuate. Again. And again. And again. BTW Gaza hasn’t had an election in 20 years.
I don't know where those statistics come from, but I do know that many were forced to vote for Hamas. I also don't believe they hate jews. They have grown weary of being controlled by th government of Israel, who decides when they get electricity and water each day. And now are deciding if aid can get through the borders.
....37,000 Palestinians killed so far - almost half, children- more than 1/4 women - and many many more wounded. I understand why some people would rather pretend it isn't true. But decades from now, those people will have to look back and recognize this moment when they refused to stand for human rights for Palestinians (and possibly, the genocide of Palestinians in an enlarged State of Israel. At some point, the truth is always
Shouldn't we apply the same standards to Kurds, Uyghurs, Chechens, Rohinggya, indigenous Amazonians, etc.? We seem not to have the same strong sentiment we show for Palestinians (or Israelis, depending on which side we're on) even for the Ukrainians in the most consequential conflict since WWII, from which this Hamas attack on Israel seems designed to take away our attention. And ironically, surprisingly little uproar, at least in the way of protests or riots, has occurred regarding the attempted destruction of our democracy & takeover of our government by Trump & his russorepublochristofascist allies to turn our country into a Nazi-like tyranny. We're so concerned about a conflict between Palestinians & Israelis (yet again for the dozenth time in my life) & not about the fate of our own nation?
Absolutely - of course (same standards - human rights). But at this moment our government is funding and arming a powerful foreign state engaged in the killing of innocent people and decimation of essential infrastructure on a massive scale, insuring there is nowhere Palestinians can safely - and freely - live within the illegally occupied territories of Gaza, East Jerusalem and the West Bank. The US isn't currently funding and arming other powerful states engaged in genocide against an indigenous population - at least not to this extent. Since Biden is unwilling to limit or condition his support for the State of Israel - and has never acted in support of life, freedom and sovereignty for Palestinians - it seems incredibly urgent that peace and human rights activists speak up and protest. We only have this moment - this chance. If we don't succeed in changing the minds of Americans, the genocide in Gaza will continue until there are no Palestinians living in their native homeland. We'll have the rest of our lifetimes to regret that we didn't do more to save them.
Here's what I find distressing about your reply to my comment, L. French. Where do you get your information? For example "37,000 Palestinians killed so far -- almost half are children" Why do you want to believe this? You want the Jews to be the villains? Since you're so well versed on Palestinian deaths, you must have sources -- trusted sources -- to rely upon. Care to share them?
Holy crap, Michael! Just look at the wreckage and destruction! You do believe your eyes, don’t you? Do you really think that all those Palestinian civilians survived in all of those flattened buildings? This will be a dark stain on Israel for all of history. They even killed their own citizens and knew it when they did it. Netanyahu engineered a bloodbath, not a war.
How is it not a war? Hamas had 30,000 to 40,000 soldiers — now there are 4 battalions left —in Rafah — comprising 10,000 fighters. They (and Hamas leadership— must be removed as a threat. When Hamas attacked Israel as they did, they brought this destruction upon themselves and upon thei Gazans.0
The Palestinian Health Ministry is responsible for the numbers which are considered reliable by UN agencies and most governments. You of course will claim that anything associated with Palestine is not.
What are your sources, by the way? Israel, that bastion of truth and rectitude?
It’s true and it’s tragic. Palestinians themselves may have several civil wars before they can rid themselves of the twin evils of Islam: Jihad and Martyrdom. I’m not passing judgment on Israelis for putting up barriers to protect themselves. Call it an “open air prison” if you must. Hamas and Iran are to blame. No one in their right mind would choose to live in either place: Gaza or Iran.
Well, to be perfectly fair, Israelis would have to go in and rape, murder, burn to death alive, kidnap, rape some more, the equal number of Palestinians to call it fair. Then everyone could go home feeling justified.
That’s not how this works. You can’t measure this in the number of dead bodies. I feel so damn sorry for Jews. And they give so much to us in terms of advances in medicine, science technology. They are good people ! I’m tired of seeing them smeared.
According to the UN statistics since the 2000's, the traditional response is approximately 20 Palestinians to each Israeli. That's killed. Injured, the ratio is a bit higher. This time they're outdoing themselves.
I don't see any sources disputing those numbers and the Israelis are jumping for joy. 10/7 was.a horrific attack,the details of which remain murky and disputed.Certain initial stories have been proven to be made up to make it look even worse.
You are right but they need to talk to the other side as you did with students. Agree that error on both sides has occurred and that no one side is right and the other wrong.
I don't have many words for what happened on October 7th. Just the word evil. And I have the same word for a government that has caged and oppressed and crushed another people, bombing their homes and forcing them to carry their belongings and wander around for food and water and some kind of shelter. If the situation were reversed, and Palestinians ruled Jews in Gaza, would that change your opinion? I can't think of a single historical example where rage and retribution have led to good outcomes for people.
The protesters, at least some of them, are confusing Jewish people from the actions of Israel’s government and its military. Harassing Jewish students on campus — spitting on them, cursing them, etc. — is anti-Semitic. For all the protesters know, the Jewish students may deplore the killings in Gaza as much as they do.
Did your read past the first line of Robert 'Reich's post, \ in which he rightly condemns antisemitism, but that is not his main point. He writes, "But there is nothing inherently antisemitic about condemning the ongoing bloodshed in Gaza that has so far killed at least 34,000 people, mostly women and children."
"Protesting this slaughter is not hate speech. It is what should be done on a college campus — taking a stand against a perceived wrong, at least provoking discussion and debate."
The students are protesting a perceived wrong, and Reich thinks they should have the right to do so--without being attacked by the police.
Is it possible to take your eyes off antisemitism long enough to appreciate the fact that Reich is saying peaceful protest should not be discouraged.
Spitting on Jewish students and giving them the finger should not be part of a protest.
Spitting on ANYONE :
Should not be a part of ANY protest.
I’m old enough to remember the incredibly passionate and angry protests against the atrocities and genocides committed against Vietnam and South East Asia ;(by the US government of that time). However, the violence and insults came from the police , and not the students. Today, we have social media amping up the fear and rage: placing students against each other. In the Vietnam era they were mostly united: (not all , but the majority by far). We have social, political, and economic influencers who do not always have the interests of free speech or principled, conscientious objections in mind. In fact, it seems they want to keep increase the anger, violence, and hate : all to drive up views, clicks, and attention to THEM: to increase their profits. It’s manipulation of the most cynical and dangerous kind imaginable.
While so many feel completely justified in their fear and anger, the challenge is to MAKE and FIND a way to communicate as opposed dominating the crowd:
through conversation and THE most difficult thing to retrieve once it’s all but gone:
TRUST and RESPECT.
I remember the campus anti-war protests during the Vietnam war as well as in Washington DC. I remember demonstrating and getting tear gassed. I like to think our collective protest actually helped shorten the war. Student enthusiasm for political protest is one engine in the overall pressure on leaders to do something. In this Hamas/Israeli conflict the leaders of both sides have been despicable. We should all protest and condemn the killing of non-combatants and the fact that many men believe it's acceptable to use violence to make their point. The world should put pressure on BOTH sides to stop this.
Put pressure on Hamas to release the hostages. That would be a big step towards peace. Is it too much to ask the protesters to add that to their list of demands?
How about pressure on Israel to release hostages. They continue raids in the West Bank and take hostages. Are Palestinian lives equal to Israeli?
I carry no brief for Netanyahu or for overall Israeli policies. The West Bank is an example of why Hamas exists. But if there is a deal to swap those kidnapped on October 7 for some number of those arrested in the West Bank for minor transgressions or on questionable grounds, that would be good news.
BTW "arrested" not equals "kidnapped," even if the arrests are questionable.
Those aren't hostages, and you know it. They are young people caught in the act of terrorism and killing Jews.
O K they are prisoners of an occupation. Held without trial and spoked to in their native language. Oh they are taken from their homes in the middle of the night. Stop repeating Zionist propaganda.
Your comment is pathetic. It’s gross and despicable to equate what Hamas did on Oct 7th with Israeli military interdiction off of suspected terrorists.
Obviously you do not know what is transpiring in the West Bank or you do and refuse to acknowledge it. We the United States are funding this land steal.
Protesters don't give a rats ass about Jews, only "poor" Arabs.
Protesters also don't give a rats about Ukraine and its intentional attempt at genocide and crimes against humanity, because there aren't thousands of Ukrainian Students and Ukrainian wheat money fueling professors and students.
William, wow, false equivalencies are easy to spout, but they get us nowhere. If you look at the numbers of people killed, it looks a lot like Israel has been taking a revenge that is far out of proportion to what was done to it and its people. There is a reason most of the protesters are supporting Palestine. They are clearly the abused party in this case. Antisemitism is part of American life, unfortunately because as a people who have reveled in hatred of people who are "not just like us." Heck, our people even hate folks like us if they aren't the right religion, political party, or other insignificance. Maybe these protests can show us just how stupid hatred is. It is destructive and has no true social value except to the folks at whatever level, who manipulate the hatred and haters for their own purposes. It happens around the world too and the Gaza War is just the latest example. So, the efforts need to be on ending the war and rebuilding a society, maybe differently this time, with people having more equal rights. It's a thought.
Proportionality is not part of war, Ruth. When the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor killing 3500 American servicemen, they weren't anticipating a "proportional" response. They knew they'd unleashed war. They were counting on America to not industrialize fast enough to fight for long. But America built 9000 war ships and 300,000 war planes. America killed about 3 million Japanese. Tell me, Ruth, was that a proportional response to the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor?
There is another dynamic at work here:
White = rich= evil = oppressor
Nonwhite = poor = virtuous = oppressed
There are a couple of obvious problems with this. First, not all white people are rich and not all nonwhites are poor. Specifically in the case of Israel, the majority of Jewish Israelis are not "white," i.e., of European descent. The majority are Mizrahi (of Middle Eastern descent, from the Jewish communities of Iran, Egypt, Iraq, Yemen, Morocco, etc.), African, Indian... And Palestinians, like most Arabs, are as "white" as, e.g., Greeks.
Huh?
Hamas is not likely to bend to public political pressure coming from students abroad, since Hamas is not really a responsible state acting organization that is shielding itself behind the residents of Gaza. If those hostages that they took on their intitial foray into Isreal are still alive ( I doubt they are since they would hamper mobility) I also doubt that they would be surrendered without being used as a last minute pawn to save Hamas when sufficiently cornered.
That’s my cunical view. The only side the demonstrators would have any influence on is Isreal. But, this war is Netanyahu’s swan song; he has scant motivation to stop.
They're not trying to influence Hamas or Israel. They are calling to their/our own government to stop supplying the bombs paid for by our tax dollars to reduce Gaza's cities to rubble and people to fragmented corpses. And they are in many cases calling on their universities to divest their endowments, as many non-profits have done in recent years (not to mention TIAA), in Israeli companies that manufacture weapons and surveillance.
It is too much to ask of Hamas, the US and the west promised a state to the Palestinians over 20 years ago and they paid lip service to this commitment!
The same western alliance took Palestinians land and created a state for Jewish people in a few short years ,DOUBLE STANDARDS.How can you equate the killing of 34000+ with some 1200 Israeli deaths.If you subjugate a people you should expect at some atrocities will happen.
Israeli behaviour is pure simple retribution and has created another generation of FREEDOM FIGHTERS! How would you feel if your parents/siblings were bombed to Hell.
How would you feel if your parents or siblings were burned alive, beheaded, raped? Hamas is the one who committed atrocities.
No I do not accept or expect atrocities, and certainly I do not welcome them. The 34000 (if you believe Hamas's numbers) deaths were completely preventable, all Hamas had to do was not carry out its atrocity...which was not spontaneous in reaction to some Israeli action but was long and carefully planned. If Israel has any fault with regard to October 7, it is in not being prepared for the level of racism, genocide, cruelty and hatred exhibited on that day.
I have always been disappointed and somewhat surprised that there has never been a Palestinian (or Arab) Gandhi or MLK or Mandela; the response to a real or perceived offense is always violence.
If my parents were bombed to hell I would be full of hate. If their deaths were due to my government planning and carrying out a massive, hate-filled, atrocity that was bound (and known) to create a military response, I would direct that hate towards my government.
I wonder how you would react to being treated and referred to as ANIMALS!
Israel gets away with this only because in virtually every white nation the Jewish lobby control the media and the financial muscle the Jewish block has. It is only via social media that people are finding out what the Israeli IDF is doing!
If Israel has nothing to hide why won’t they allow press to go in and report fairly. You seem to have blinkers on.
Also note Mandela was labelled a terrorist too! So was Gandhi! Why don’t you suggest we should have an Israeli leader guarantee the Palestinian people a state of their own.
As for the USA why did they use there Veto on the vote to give Palestine recognition as a state because if Biden did he would loose the election and I question his decency too and as for Trump he is not fit to clean toilets and you lot elected him.Americans deserve what they get!
How silly, Anil. Palestinian leadership has consistently and repeatedly turned down offers of a Palestinian state on the West Bank and Gaza. Over and over again. That is, alas, a failure of Palestinian leadership, a leadership which you must know has enriched themselves with billions of dollars. The Hamas leadership outside of Gaza are billionaires. And you know it.
You've got it backwards; it's Israel that won't allow a Palestinian state. Netanyahoo has said repeatedly he has no interest in a 2 state solution. Various Arab countries through the 1990s and 2000s offered recognition of Israel in exchange for a 2 state setup, which would mean Israeli acceptance of Palestine, and Israel either ignored these proposals or turned them down every time.
It's funny how often in this thread people accuse Palestinians as being guilty of things Israelis are actually doing.
Jewish billionaires are helping fund Israel and its extermination plan for Palestinians; they also fund (bribe) the US Congress to give unconditional aid and support to Israel, money which could be much better spent at home. Bit I'm sure you have no problem with this.
I am neither a Palestinian nor a muslim
AMEN! THANK YOU!
Many of them do include that.
Your proposal sounds very fair and just. However, when we understand that, this is a protest against supporting Israel and is being directed at the US government that is overtly supporting Israel. The US government has no control or influence over Hamas.
Well first I disagree that the campus protests are directed at the US government; they are directed at the universities, asking them to divest, to declare that a genocide is ongoing, to call for an unconditional cease fire, and of course amnesty for themselves.
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/college-pro-palestine-protest-demands_n_662c2672e4b0c2fde1a5b467
No demands are being directed at the US government as far as I can tell.
Second, if the US only has leverage over Israel and not over Hamas, isn't a call to stop supporting Israel equivalent to asking for an unconditional unilateral cease fire? Which would mean Hamas remains in power and in possession of the hostages. Yes that is exactly what some in the US and around the world are asking, and it may be what some of the campus demonstrators really want. And some on campus and elsewhere are openly pro-Hamas. But for the most part I don't think people have thought through what are the implications of stopping support for Israel.
I cannot debate your compartmental thinking! However, this brief anecdote should help put every argument and justification of Israel/Palestine's actions to rest :
A little Benji comes home from school with a bloody nose. When his mother asks what happened, he cries, "It all started when Ali hit me back!"
One of the costs of students' legitimate protest of the Vietman war is the massive burden of student debt Americans labor under today. Ronald Reagan despised college students and stripped funding for higher education, first in California when he was governor and then the U.S. when he tragically became President.
(The other group the Republicans despised was blacks protesting for the final overthrow of Jim Crow. Their response was the "war on crime" (largely marijuana use) producing the highest incarceration rate in the world, disproportionally black population.)
Don, you are right that Republican hatreds metastasized during the Vietnam War protests, but those protests were powerful, often dismissed by middle-aged white folks in power, but they did help people to pay attention to the war. Afghanistan and Iraq were mostly ignored or seen as something too far away to care about and so the American nation didn't pay much attention beyond saying to vets "thank you for your service." Both wars went on far longer than they should have, Afghanistan, 20 years, far longer than Vietnam. Also, Nixon used the war to prove his manhood. He sabotaged peace talks to get elected, then killed thousands because he thought he could destroy Communism or some other such nonsense. The Vietnam War had a lot of people to blame. I am thinking when all is said and done, Netanyahu is going to come out looking like the war criminal he is, even to the most conservative Israeli.
Ruth you make some good points, but the Vietnam war was longer than the war in Afghanistan, not the other way around: 1954-75.
These seem to be more examples of how people in power target ordinary citizens for standing up for their beliefs. Those in power also are in the process of punishing women for wanting first class citizenship status. And on and on it goes.
J. Nol, as a Vietnam Vet, who lost four team members in Sep 67 I am here to tell you that your protests did nothing but excite the reactionaries and lengthen the war, you and other protesters don't want to hear it because you were too busy patting yourself on the backs.
What caused the war to stop and brought the troops home, were the daily sights of metal caskets being unloaded from C-141's., and the constant stream of photo's and video coverage of flag draped, honor guarded funerals. It was the middle class, watching their sons, brothers,husbands, cousins, uncles being buried.
Dubya knew that all too well, and forbid reporters and photographers from photographing the unloading of caskets at Dover AFB, DE, and the coverage of funerals of soldiers killed in Iraq/Afghanistan.
He knew that if the deaths were publicized, there would be a middle class uproar against the war, and he had big plans for re election.
I protested because I witnessed the media coverage and had friends who went to Vietnam, with some not coming back. I don't remember patting myself on the back, but I do remember feeling frustrated with the administration that seemed okay with sending people into the meat grinder of war in a foreign land, that was no threat to us at all. I remember feeling helpless in the face of the madness and wanting to make my voice heard. Again, no back patting occurred. So sorry you still feel so hostile toward those of us who didn't go but did utilize our freedom of speech to try to stop the war. And sorry for the loss of your friends. And sorry that you lived during a time in the US history when the leadership thought it was okay to send other people's children to fight a surrogate war with the communists.
I appreciate your comments. One big difference with Dubya tho' was that those fighting had not been drafted.
Indeed,
Dubya and Cheney did have very big plans. Sad how it all worked out for the Iraqi and Afghanis civilians, but mission was definitely accomplished. I say that with all due respect to the Vice President as he did most if not all of the leg work on it. We still do not know what he knew at that time. Dubya could never know due to plausible denial. Veep had to work with some very shady people and look the other way as innocent people were slaughtered, but that’s something he must deal with as all those do who may make such choices. Was it all worth it(?); jury still out in that one I would think.
All the protestors way back when were always considered as insignificant insects
to the those who ran and profited from the sacrifice of their families : tens of thousands who were related to and loved all those whose remains came back on those C-141’s. THAT is what motivated THEM to say something, even if they were forced to associate with the “spoiled brat commies” to do that. My family was divided in such a way. We have managed to reconcile since then, and still agree to disagree. However, we also know how passion can avert reason and blind one to sensible, on the ground solutions that could lead to understanding the issues that started the conflicts in the first place. We aren’t too keen on the passion and the rage, no matter how justifiable feelings are: but we also know how to work effectively behind the scenes to thwart the sociopaths who currently exert powerful influence on the inexperienced, the stressed, the fearful, the depressed who have and lost everything for a government and a community that discards them as inconvenient to deal with. Those deemed inconvenient are civilians, and soldiers on every side who become collateral damage to a system that will preserve itself at all costs.
And as for those insignificant and meaningless protestors (?),
They were the ones who made those daily sights of those caskets carrying the remains of their loved ones, available to the public: not on the evening news, or in traditional/ administrative media, but in ways that no one could just put down and ignore. In an age when social media and the digital age were the domain of science fiction, protest was the best form of expression available to them that would be noticed and would register in the minds and consciousness of the public. Today (?); you use your phone and / or computer to deliver messages 24/7.
So , yes, they did make a huge difference, so in ways that we have not the cognitive and chronological distance to analyze properly.
One last note, Mr Cheney raised an amazing g daughter who, though I may disagree with some of her politics, I regard as a patriot amongst those who believe that no longer matters when weighed against their ambitions.
I completely disagree with you on "we still don't know what they knew." Yes, we do . . . It was about oil. There were no WMD left in Iraq, Cheney and Dumbya's pretense for attacking the sovereign nation of Iraq. "Cheney did all the legwork"??? Yea, of gathering and coercing lies, and getting people like Colin Powell (who knew better) to go along with him. (Not to mention the CIA.) Read "The Case Against George W. Bush." If your library hasn't got a copy of it, they can certainly order it. Cheney (of Halliburton) was all about oil. As was "W"(BTW: one of the BIGGEST MISTAKES the "Supreme" Court ever made). Cheney & Bush brought the world the rise of ISIS. I always say that Cheney keeps having heart transplants because he knows he's going to hell, and he keeps trying to put off the inevitable.
As for Liz Cheney, yes, she did a great and commendable thing in standing up to the Repugs in office and voting to impeach Trump (one of only 10 Republicans to do so), and then to work on the Jan. 6 Investigative Committee. Her work there was invaluable. I am reading her book right now, "Oath and Honor: a Memoir and a Warning." Much of it is a step-by-step play of the activities of the Committee's work (which is a little redundant for those of us who kept up with all of that from other sources), but too much of the book is about the Republicans and Republican history. I would say that Liz Cheney became a decent, commendable person DESPITE her father. She is very highly educated with a long work history of her own in government. She gave up a lot to stand against Trump and his slavish servants in Congress, but she can also do just about anything she sets her mind to. It DID take a lot of courage on her part, because the whole state of hard-right Wyoming turned against her. And it IS commendable that her father backed her in her last choices of stands she took in office.
Right. That should be happening, but it's not. The question is why? Have you tried to answer that?
I'm sure our protests shortened the war, but it also led to crushing the middle class wealth so that the working class has no time to rise up against our wayward leaders as we did in the 60s. Plus, as Jim M. said, "we got the numbers, baby!" The Boomers were the biggest and greatest youth movement and awakening ever. And we made it count as much as we could.
Israel is fighting Islamic terrorists.
Did you even notice the false equivalence you just vomited?
Patricia, did Robert Reich say that spitting on Jewish students should be part of the protest. Has anyone in this comment section condoned spitting? I also remember the protests against Vietnam war, and since of was part of them, I know that there were exceptions to the rosy glow of unity your present among protesters of the Vietnam war. Just to give one example, some protesters some protesters were into burning the American flag; others were not. The reality is that large protests are inevitably messy. By focusing only on the most extreme protesters, you miss the essential character of the student protests, that they are largely peaceful and yes, quite principled in calling a halt to US complicity with Israel's genocide war on Gaza/
Nina,
This post was in response to a young Columbia student who had experienced being spit on and was physically assaulted as a Jew, along with her companion who was not.
Another poster then commented and said that spitting on someone should never be part of a protest. I simply agreed.
Also , Mr Reich never said that any kind of violence , harassment, intimidation, or dehumanization of ANY kind is acceptable as protest. MY post NEVER inferred that he thought otherwise. He would never say that , and I certainly never inferred it at ALL.
As for the “rose colored” glasses of the old Vietnam war protests, I simply related one experience, that of the present day students, with part of the past that I remember well. At no time did I infer that it was all “hearts and flowers” back then either. There was incredible anger and rage directed at the draft, draft dodgers, burning of flags, and labels of communist agitators. There were physical encounters between students who were anti war and those who were pro war and anti communist. As you might remember I said that the students were for the most part united, but I also commented by no means were ALL of them in agreement and united.
No, those days were NOT all passive or non-violent. But there was also no social media campaign isolating them and fomenting the negative publicity against the positive.
That is the main driver of anger, hate, fear, and division today.
Those of us who were anti war were in the minority. It took guts to stand up like Dr. King and occasionally take a beating while resisting the urge to fight back violently. We were a minority group; don’t forget that.
Exactly, murdered for protesting an unjust War! Do most people know -
What? - The real reason for that war?
I would like to know the truth..
The Americans stepped in to replace the French whohad been the colonial conquerers.
I'm sorry. These are not peaceful protests. They include hurling insults of elimination and killing Jewish people. It's not right on either side to commit heinous acts of violence or threats. Which sadly this is exactly what the Palestinian protesters are doing. Furthermore have you seen the graffiti all over the school and doing things like protesting right outside principles door, defacing school property. Do you think that's all appropriate? Jewish students on campus feel very threatened right now and for good reason.
It's perfectly fine to peacefully protest violence, wrongdoings, etc. But this is a far from what's going on in college campuses.
Care to tell us how many campus protests you've been to about Gaza? Care to tell us how many campsus' have had protests? It sounds like you are talking about isolated incidents that you've seen in the media. Do you know the scope of protests and protesters? Of course not.
Has it occured to you that reporters are trying to sensationalize some of the protests? This is what they ALWAYS do. "If it bleeds, it leads."
I can remember being threatened by an angry mob of skinheads for protesting a war. I was at the back of the March of thousands of student protesters. The media taped more sensational scenes rather than thousands of peaceful protesters. It was poor reporting. It's possible that some of the bad actors were Agent Provacatuars on a mission to distract the message of the peaceful protesters.
It's really not fair to dwell or bring up the bad actions of a few, and dismiss the peaceful actions of many and their stand for peace.
Danny have you heard about the new technology available ? It’s called a smart phone. You can take pics AND videos. It’s also on the news nightly.
Congrats on your experience and wisdom. Yes I know people in universities where this is going on. AND it is going on at many universities. AND gas extended to street, brushed, and airports - in my nearby city. Yes I know people who are concerned. No🤬I don't have your experience. Furthermore, I stopped watching the news awhile back. So from what I see and know, I don't trust that the intentions are good.
Thank you for your reply. Patricia. I was simply trying to point out that protest movements are messy, whether now or during the Vietnam War. There is much positive unity in the student protests today, as well as some ugly division.
I generally agree with you are the media. But that's a whole other topic.
Thank you Nina for response and well said.
Keep reading. You'll probably find it somewhere lol.
Indeed Tom,
Yes, someone should have mentioned them.
No one had been killed protesting until then.
That was the turning point along with The Pentagon Papers :
The public began to see the formation of DIS information and those who were driving it.
How easily you call Israel's war on Hamas a genocide, not having a feckin' clue what genocide is or what the word means. Shame on you.
I refer you to yesterday's article in the NYT "Israeli Officials Believe International Court Is Preparing Arrest Warrants Over War," which begins as follows:
"Israeli officials increasingly believe that the International Criminal Court is preparing to issue arrest warrants for senior government officials on charges related to the conflict with Hamas, according to five Israeli and foreign officials.
"The Israeli and foreign officials also believe the court is weighing arrest warrants for leaders from Hamas.
"If the court proceeds, the Israeli officials could potentially be accused of preventing the delivery of humanitarian aid to the Gaza Strip and pursuing an excessively harsh response to the Hamas-led Oct. 7 attacks on Israel, according to two of the five officials, all of whom spoke on the condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to publicly discuss the matter."
Note that the ICC is likely to issue arrest warrants for the leaders of Hamas. I think that would be fair and just.
Thank you Nina follow up to the previous statement.
Yes, ALL who have taken a part in the mass slaughter: both Hamas and Israeli, should be called out and held accountable before the world and her people.
My understanding of the definition of genocide is based on the Geneva Convention for genocide, which defines genocide as any of five "acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group." These five acts include killing members of the group, causing them serious bodily or mental harm, imposing living conditions intended to destroy the group. An example of the later is Israel's use of starvation as a weapon of war.
What is your definition of genocide?
Hamas has the expressed goal of annihilating Israel and its citizens. Israel must defend itself against this continuing threat of genocide by destroying Hamas. Let the Palestinians in Gaza obtain refuge from their Arab neighbors while Israel roots out the terrorists that have used Gazan citizens as shields, have bases in hospitals and elaborate tunnels. If Hamas is not completely defeated they will only try again to commit genocide.
Thanks Nina for bringing the sublimal motivation for protesting. Sexual surrogacy, an orgasmic release, the "glow of unity" as you put it, social sexual communion, that's it. All else is window dressing, an excuse.
The point though William was this:
taking this action:
IS Getting the point and the message out there, regardless of the socio/sexual “orgasmic” release that some may believe is the only “true” motive for these actions.
They are simply attempting to communicate what their thoughts and deeply held beliefs are regarding an injustice they see and no one is really attempting to solve. The social bad actors you’ve sighted from today and those of another generation, were aplenty, and definitely caused harm: THEY were the “window dressing” you sight. The vast majority (?): were and are anything but.
My family has been career military going back 5 generations. We lost 15 family members who served from 1942-2020. Some carried weapons, some scalpels , some cameras, some rescuers from the field of battle. 5 of those 15 were lost in Vietnam. Those of us left behind from 67-75 thought it necessary to start making public the legitimate records, statements, and documents that had been hidden from public view to show what had actually occurred in South East Asia as opposed to what the public was being told was happening. That lead to my awakening and reconciliation with history as opposed to media marketing coverage.
Today , we have another generation whose sense of conscience and humanity won’t allow them to remain silent. Some of them are now forming on mine study groups to fulfill their academic goals, communicate on a daily basis with each other and stay out of confrontation as that would cause harm or danger to those they love. The remarkable thing is they are Jews, they are Muslims, they are Christians, they are Europeans, they are Americans, they are Egyptian, they are Iranian, they are atheists, they are physically disabled, they are wealthy, they are economically disadvantaged. NONE of this MATTERS to them. There formed a community that will last past the hate, the violence, the suspicion, and the fear.
Yes, they’ve been out there ob those front lines, just as their parents and grandparents were, and now they’ve found another, just as effective way to communicate their experiences and, and their viewpoints : with each OTHER and the WORLD.
THEY are most definitely NOT the “window dressing” generation William:
And NEITHER were their PARENTS.
Hitler and Mussolini had a lot of good ideas. Good ideas are the what is peddled by charlatans.
I do agree about the Clintons, if he was a Republican he would be villified with Nixon/Reagan and Bush.
I am not a Democrat, though I have to register as one to vote in the Primary, but am an independent.
I hadn't voted since 1964, because I realized that the two parties were different sides of the same coin, but when Trump came down the escalator I got very scared and registered to vote.
The problem is that a real mass movement is built from the bottom up, and our parties are built from the top down.
The party of Trump is actually a bottom up movement, that is what populism is, and Trump tapped into it because he is a racist openly, they embraced him and made him, elevated him, because he is their avatar, there way of achieving total power, and they believe that he will rule for them, as do the Plutocrats who have been and are financing him.
I said populism is a bottom up movement, there is right wing populism and left wing populism, only left wing populism has never got past the starting gate.
FDR was one, and there was a long hiatus until Bernie, and Bernie never even got to the starting gate because the powers that be, the money powers, the Plutocrats, the corporate bosses and billionaires put their thumb on the scale for Hillary.
As I see it the DNC is not a party of the people, but it is the only alternative to the party of the fascist theocrats, misogynists, and bigots Though contained within it are elements of all, but who are restrained and constrained by the majority.
Well spoken William and Point ON.
Repeat this mantra three times: Divide and conquer. It is the strategy of every power-driven entity that has ever darkened the paths of humankind.
Thank you Steve , well spoken and spot on.
Thanks, Patricia, for the kind words; but, not much to be done about it, is there?
Yeah, like I've seen Jewish people in Isreal and Palestine spitting on Palestinians and CHRISTIANS. Smh...
You’ve seen Hamas committing atrocities against Israeli civilians.
Have you seen the Israeli government raining down bombs on Palestinian civilians?
I have seen both these things
AMERICAN bombs! The US is supporting war crimes and genocide.
Use your brain. It's not genocide. Hamas is not an ethnic group.
Arab Muslims are not being targeted for being Arab Muslims.
Hamas is being targeted because of Oct 7th. They started this war, intentionally.
Correct. The genocide occurred on October 7. People were murdered, raped, mutilated, and kidnapped because they were Jews. Nobody is being killed in the Gaza war because of their religion, race, ethnicity, or nationality.
aha! so it's just OOPS sorry we killed all these accidentally innocent people ..... we didn't 'target' you....sorry you're dead.
nice try.
Indeed, and with much assistance from parties, outside and IN side Gaza AND Israel.
Fools like him have no brain, either tools, or Jew haters who grab at straws.
Not genocide a hole. Read the UN Convention for Prevention of Genocide, Article II it requires intent, sans intent subsequent articles don't apply.
You are too easily led, to easily propagandized, you are a tool
Did the Allies commit genocide when they bombed Germany? Hmm. Did they. No they killed millions, but there was no intent. War is hell and civilians get caught in the cross fire. But sans intent there is no genocide, so I advise you to stop playing loose with words..
Will, the intent is crystal clear.
Thank you thank you
The Haredi are quite famous for it, and throwing rocks.
I love anecdotal evidence.
Not altogether, Patricia. Remember the stories about servicemen being spat on and insulted when they were just walking down a street in uniform? That was 50 years ago -- so much for trust and respect (I agree with you that without them civil discourse is impossible -- I just don't know whether we can retrieve them).
Otoh, a serviceman who had that happen to him COULD have learned something about how Blacks have felt since the Civil War. I wonder if any did...
I recently discovered that there are untold millions of dollars ‘donated’ to the elite universities from the likes of Qatar and Iran. The Muslim Brotherhood’s charter specifically states their 100 year goal to impose Islam on a global scale. There is a pro Hamas movement called “Within our Lifetime.” Is that why these protests continue to grow?
What are your sources for these claims?
Thank You Patricia, sensible advice,
I will need to re read, often. I do get fired up, which is not a healthy thing to do, and not usually helpful.
Agree with you Patricia
Spitting on someone, in my view, is a physical assault. Spitting at someone, well, it’s shameful but doesn’t rise to the level of assault…perhaps it attempted assault. Getting flipped off, it’s a form of speech, albeit, unsophisticated and rude, but so what.
Meanwhile, I completely agree with Robert. Unless the protesters themselves become violent, there is no cause for police action.
Frankly, I believe the protests we see today on American campuses were strategically caused and are supported by Republicans and their Russian ally, Vladimir Putin. They purposefully stirred the hornets’ nest with Capital Hill hearings, doing hit jobs on university presidents (who, for whatever reason I can not understand) obliged their banana republic theatrics. It is time to allow our youth to express their views - whether we agree with them or not for they deserve to be heard.
This is a prelude to the Democratic convention. We need to take this seriously and not repeat ‘68.
Very perceptive of you. And this is well engineered.
Thank you DK for the warning.
Randi Rhodes is highlighting this as well on her radio podcasts.
Despite the incredible progress that was made ‘64-‘68, LBJ decided not to accept his party’s nomination. The DNC connection was also in Chicago of that year. MLK and RFK were both assassinated by then. Vietnam was used as an albatross around Johnson’s neck and if we are not VERY careful (?),
we will see history repeat or at least rhyme itself with Biden.
In Chicago no less. The Muslim Brotherhood is making good on its promise to destroy us with our own hands.
This is the first amendment
Sure as long as the students are not be duped. Which many are
Duped by whom?
https://meforum.us12.list-manage.com/track/click?u=b7aa7eddb0f2bb74bfa4f6cb5&id=442c63f74a&e=c58d26bad8
The news and the media will show you what they choose to show. These in fact have spouse eliminating israel. These have resulted intent encampments on campus. These have resulted in defacing college property. Jewish students have been verbally threatened. It would behoove anyone to check out all sources of media so you can see these things going on.
Don’t try to get it from MSNBC.
What is wrong with MSNBC Julia? What are your sources for information and the details about important world matters?
The Harvard CAPS-Harris survey shared with The Hill showed 80 percent of registered voters said they support Israel more in the war, while 20 percent said they support Hamas more.
An overwhelming number of Americans support Israel. I watch some MSNBC and get my news from many sources. With the obvious exception of Fox Nuz/Newsmax/OANN.
But MSNBC leans toward some propaganda when it comes to the pro Hamas movement. I’m very liberal, but I’m not stupid. These protests will cost us in November.
https://apple.news/AE4oEO2i_TXelp562cD2q4A
Just stop. Accusing protesters of violent behavior and threatening words is a device ALWAYS used to help people justify condemnation of free speech that makes people uncomfortable (like references to the State of Israel's massacre of more than 37,000 Palestinians in the last 7 months - almost half of which were children). When you want to deflect, you declare that peaceful protesters, opposing illegal occupation and ongoing genocide are spitting on people walking by. It's so horrifying to wrap your mind around such extreme violence and inhumanity - Israel's siege blocking Palestinians' access to the essentials of life - those who have so far survived aerial bombing, tank shelling and snipers - Israel's indiscriminate attacks on hospitals, schools and mosques - the deliberate targeting of doctors, ambulances and journalists - the total decimation of residential neighborhoods to prevent Palestinians' return "home." It's impossible to defend such immorality. To stand with the State of Israel - and support the US's arming and funding of such slaughter - people have to pretend it isn't happening. That's much easier to do when you demonize the people who speak it.
You conveniently omit that Hamas launched an unprovoked attack on civilians, murdering 1200 and abducting approximately 240 to be used as bargaining chips, commits to repeating this atrocity until the State of Israel is no more, uses the Palestinians as human shields, builds a warren of bunkers and warehouses to store weaponry under hospitals, homes and businesses, near schools etc. The horror and death that Hamas has visited upon Gaza's population could come to an end in a second if Hamas agrees to withdraw from Gaza and releases the hostages that are still living. Oh, I guess you inadvertently overlooked all of this.
Absolutely. It’s ok cause they are jews
The disowned son of HAMAS leader, Mosab Hassan Yousef says Palestinians are all factions/tribes of HAMAS. They are all terrorists and if they didn't have Israel to wage their wars they'd be fighting each other.
https://x.com/LeviSfari/status/1781671176051347846
You people are so gullible....
Thank you for that!! More people need to hear what he has to say
Yes Bravo.
Who here has condoned HAMAS terrorists?
It’s obvious John.
Women and children? Stop that, it’s gross.
You've conveniently left out the ongoing horrors and torture that Hamas and hundreds of Palestinians families inflicted on those around them. Wonder why???
Are you so blind that you have become a Hamas sympathizer now?
FROM MEMRI TV: Hamas Leader Khaled Mashal acknowledges American college students for endorsing their genocidal goal to eliminate Israel and its Jews
troll
things 12yrs old post when they've been busted for hypocrisy....
John, did Prof. Reich fail to condemn anti-semitism or the killing, raping and hostage taking by Hamas? NO. Arguing agains one thing doesn't mean you don't care about the other.
Yes he sort of neutralized that with his emphasis on claiming free speech
Again thank you!! They are instigating this and laughing
That is not right with the state of Israel is doing. But does that make what the Palestinians are doing to the university campuses in this country okay? One needs to take a look at what's truly going on with graffiti, defacing property, tent encampments, and threats to eliminate israel. This is what Hamas is calling for all along, nothing new to see here. Furthermore they are obstructing streets freeways Bridges and airports. Happening in my city, also.
Excuse me but there are plenty of Jews participating in these protests. Genocide is a term well understood by the protesting students and the fact that Netanyahu and his gang of thugs are being considered for indictment by the International Criminal Court for crimes against humanity is a condemnation not to be taken lightly.
I don’t see anything wrong with what Israel is doing. Imagine fighting an enemy that wants to see their own people die for their Jihadi cause. And of course to isolate the only thriving democracy in the ME.
You don't see anything wrong with starving children and bombing hospitals?? Don't you know that withholding food, water, medical from a defenseless civilian population constitutes war crimes? Israel's committed so many war crimes they are uncountable. What kind of monster are you?
Also drop the falsehood about Israel being a democracy - it is not now and never has been. It's a Jewish supremacist state, codified by law in 2018. Everybody else is second class. Israel's been declared an apartheid state by Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, and smaller groups like the American Friends Service Committee (Quakers), and B'Tselem an Israeli human rights group.
You're a psychopath.
You do know some of the protesters are Jews who oppose what Israel is doing,don’t you? But of course you think they’re all Palestinians—I didn’t know there were so many who were blonde and blue eyed (or do you think they are wearing disguises?).
I don't know whether or not there are Jewish people protesting with the Palestinian people. But I absolutely know for certain that Palestinians are getting Americans to be in their side and chant death to Israel. I do believe that Chicago is one place where that is going on. Done recall if this is in or out of university.
No one's chanting death to Israel. Lies, as usual.
In Chicago. I heard it myself from media sources. You must be one of them
Wonder if you really know. I have people I know in universities who have made several comments that allude to that. Plus the history. I even saw a saw a sign that said "queers for Palestine.". Come on , that is completely ridiculous. Anyone who understands how underhanded these guys are know that someone would be tortured and killed for being anything other than heterosexual. You don't know what you don't know. I saw a sign with the f word regarding Israel just outside of the protestors' tents, and I have seen intifada graffiti on campus buildings. I have seen destruction and blocking people from entering buildings, and the like. The recruits that the professional protesters pulling in know little about the history of Israel and they are being told what to say, aka brainwashed. Probably told tobe peaceful, too. These are violent people who would use humans as a shield and would for use their own kind as weapons.
What about the “immorality” of the Oct 7 attack by HAMAS, L French?
Meanwhile, in the real world. A vast majority of Americans are pro Israel.
https://apple.news/AE4oEO2i_TXelp562cD2q4A
Michigan is a swing state. Dearborn Muslims call Biden “genocide Joe.” Let them leave and live in Gaza. We need to rethink our ME immigration policy. They don’t have American values at all. They may as well be MAGA supporters.
Have you fact checked the information you are are using? I don’t think so
Agreed.
I see protests leading to violence and antisemitic acts. Peaceful protests of course!
It's a shame but....
The only people who want to see innocent Palestinians die are Hamas and their allies, Iran and Russia. They got the result they wanted when they attacked on Oct. 7.
This not the first time. They were caught killing their own people to blame Jews. Amnesty International: https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2015/05/gaza-palestinians-tortured-summarily-killed-by-hamas-forces-during-2014-conflict/#:~:text='Strangling%20Necks'%3A%20Abduction%2C,members%20and%20supporters%20of%20Hamas's
This has been an open opportunity for antisemites.
Respectfully, this didn't just start with October 7. And IDF have killed Jewish people, doctors, journalists, aid workers, innocent men, women, children and babies. We don't even know the TRUE number of Palestinian casualties. The people under the rubble of blown up building are being bull dozed into mass graves (if that). God bless the former IDF soldiers that have defected and are telling the REAL truth.
IDF killed some of their OWN people who were Hamas hostages.
The first casualty of war is truth.
Problem is that Hamas uses their own ppl as human shields and they don't care what happens to them. Palestinians families are holding hostages both dead and alive and could release them NOW but they prefer to watch their own ppl die. Place the blame on Hamas.
That's right, it didn't start Oct 7th. The truth of everything before it points to a situation where neither Arabs nor Jews are automatically entitled to ALL the land. There was a partition plan to split the land between Arabs and Jews. The Jews accepted, the Arabs (5 Arab nations in a coalition) rejected it and started a war. This was the Arab Israeli War of 1948. This war displaced thousands of Palestinians, but no Palestinians had been displaced before that.
They were displaced by the war that they started, which they started because they believe they are entitled to ALL the land, for religious reasons.
Various coalitions of Arab nations started EVERY war with Israel, explicitly because they oppose the existence of a Jewish state, no matter what, for religious reasons.
A lack of knowledge of history makes people easy to manipulate into thinking that Palestine is the victim, when they could have had peace and statehood for the first time ever for 75 years now, if they didn't hate Jews so much.
“A lack of knowledge of history makes people easy to manipulate into thinking that Palestine is the victim, when they could have had peace and statehood for the first time ever for 75 years now, if they didn't hate Jews so much.”
That’s wrong. They were never offered a state, a viable sovereign state, of their own. Israel was imposed on them. History.
Hate exists on both sides. In the beginning Israel had the backing and the might to impose and call the shots. The might of Israel and our backing is behind this conflict. The hate has grown in Israel while they live relatively secure behind walls fences and the military. Palestinians resort to resistance. They cannot love being oppressed.
Potter: Jews AND Arab/Palestinians were offered states in the 1947 UN Partition Plan. History? Learn about it yourself. Good grief.
Go back farther, XYZ. Israelis and Arabs co-existed in Palestine until the Brits came in after WWI (The Balfour Decl., 2017, and a couple of docs before then that dealt with managing the region after the break-up of the Ottoman Empire). After the Brits began administering the region, the Jewish pop. grew faster, and housing, schools, etc. were established. A Jewish univ. was established, but an Arab one never was. According to one historian (Ilan Pappe), this was because of "Zionist pressure, British anti-Arab racism, and lack of resources." He added that "the colonial mentality of the British authorities who deemed the Palestinians yet another colonized people who had to be oppressed, while regarding the Zionist settlers as fellow colonialists, feared that such a university would enhance the Palestinian national movement."
So, if you want, blame the Brits for keeping a thumb on the scales.
Again Daniel,
They’re caught in their own echo chamber, and it’s the innocent who are always the cannon fodder who populate those mass graves.
"It's a shame but"...then you go on to pull out something from 2014 to insinuate Israel is innocent? "The only people" .... The shame is that you defend one side and ignore the other.. all the hate coming from the Israeli side, and more shamefully the violence towards Arabs ,Palestinians. Shame!
Not "innocent" but complicated. This is deja vu on both sides. If Hamas wants a cease fire it can have one.
Meanwhile some of those hostages are Americans.
Hamas is keeping the hostages for more than a ceasefire. you know that, or must. Think.
Probably most are dead.
Events USUALLY have historical antecedents. Why is something that happened 10 years ago irrelevant to the current situation?
The Holocaust is relevant to this situation. So is the Nabka. Both are because they are still the events that are behind the high emotions that led to October 7th. This conflict has never been resolved and so it goes on; it reverberates, ripples.
Are you serious??
I just don't think this is correct. There is wisespread hatred amongst most Israelis toward Palestinians, and the government policy indicates this as well. I encourage you to listen to Meir Baruchin in this podcast with Chris Hayes:
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/why-is-this-happening-with-chris-hayes/id1382983397?i=1000651158434
Substack needs more response options. I can't "Like" this because it's horrible, but I can certainly agree with you, Daniel.
"It's a shame but.." October 7th was a shame but.....
75 years of Israeli oppression, subjugation, and dispossession of Palestinians is a shame also, isn't it?
Truth.
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It's already happening
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I googled and asked how many antisemitic actions have been taken by the college protesters. I could not find any article to answer this, but did find this. “ Northeastern said in a statement that the demonstration, which began two days ago, had become “infiltrated by professional organizers” with no affiliation to the university and antisemitic slurs, including “kill the Jews,” had been used.”. https://apnews.com/article/gaza-war-campus-protests-966eb531279f8e4381883fc5d79d5466
It is my understanding the students are calling for universities to separate themselves from any companies that are advancing Israel’s military efforts in Gaza — and in some cases from Israel itself. Of course spitting on Jewish students and giving them the finger should not be part of a protest. We know from previous protests and union strikes that a strategy of the opposition is to infiltrate, behave badly and blame the protestors. We should verify the facts before condemning protestors who are trying to call for human rights.
Jerry Seinfeld's wife paid for violent protesters who attacked the UCLA camp. And the cops stood by for over two hours.
It sounds like there will be a two state solution finally, if Hamas will allow it. Maybe that will solve the long gong problem. That said...
People seem to have forgotten history. I mean, they can't remember back to Oct 7 even.
Please. Please explain to me what all those tunnels were for if not for military action to accomplish their long time goal of exterminating Israel. I mean, it's like Trump. Listen to what they say. They mean it.
Look, this is just more warfare, demanding the surrender of Israel.
Keep in mind that the Palestinians have been intentionally building one of the most evil weapons of mass destruction ever devised. A population bomb.
There won't be a 2 state solution because Netanyahu will not allow it. Various Arab countries have proposed a 2 state solution during the 1990's, 2000's, but always scuttled by Israel and the US
and it is much worse than that if still shy of outright assault!!!
Jewish settlers in the West Bank spit on Christian and Muslim Palestinians so I guess everybody's even.
Perhaps you are focusing on the most isolated of events to avoid the fact that these students and professors have been attacked by police for bringing attention to the fact, and I do mean fact, that Israel is a terrorist theocracy. You join the state in suppressing democracy.
Barry, do you mean the current Israeli govt is a terrorist theocracy or the nation as a whole is? If Bibi’s actions are hugely unpopular in Israel, doesn’t that imply the former?
A majority of Israelis support the Gaza massacres.
Citation, please. It’s hard to believe that normal people would support massacres.
Citation for what? That's true it's hard to believe that humans support murder of children, execution after torture of doctors, starvation. The perps are inhuman.
Hard to believe that “most Israelis” support massacres. You said it, so prove it. I thought “most Israelis” don’t like Bibi. If that’s wrong, I’ll be very sad that so many people can approve something so horrible. But your statement without proof isn’t enough.
Agreed. But both can be true, as Prof. Reich states.
I repeat my previous post Gaza protests are the mirror image of MAGA https://www.thebulwark.com/p/gaza-protests-columbia-university?utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email
And this The Fuck Biden Hoursehoe, where MAGA and the left meet
https://www.thebulwark.com/p/the-f-joe-biden-horseshoe
What the campus idiots don't know, and neither do substack idiots who join in the chorus is that the riots are instigated by rich spoiled Arab students, here on their daddy's buck and the enabling professors are beneficiaries of Arab oil money.
What is disgusting to me, that there is no nation on earth more Misogynistic and hostile to gays than those ruled by or are majority Muslims, be it Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Iran, Malaysia, Afghanistan or Pakistan.
Saudi woman gets 11 year for women's rights activism https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68934913?utm_source=join1440&utm_medium=email&utm_placement=newsletter
Iran tortures, rapes and slow strangles girls for improper wear of the hijab, and the student left, the campus idiots are quiet as a bed bug, no campus demonstrations for women's rights or gay rights in Islam... crickets, because the dumb asses are enthralled by their Muslim peers.
They are also flaming hypocrites, they demand free speech for themselves, then deny speech to those who disagree, either having them canceled or calling them foul names.
And virtually all of them are spoiled products of the lucky sperm club, to be able to afford to attend Columbia, Harvard or even UCLA.
Serious students whose parents had to work, or who are going into debt and working their way through college aren't in the crowds, and if they are then that is because they are witless sheep seeking peer approval, or horny young men hoping to get laid, like in the free love movement.
Last week I listened to a Jewish, first-year Columbia law student spokesperson for a 25-minute segment, who had a very different story to tell than what has been coming out of mainstream news, a pattern that the "why" question needs to be applied to. People might want to copy this title into the YouTube search box and hear what she has to say: "LIVE From Encampment: Jewish Columbia Student NOT Afraid"
That's outrageous as well
Barbara, spitting on anyone and shooting the bird to anyone should not be part of any protest. I know that has occurred, but that is not even close to the majority of what has happened during the anti-Gaza War campus protests.
Spitting on people is a misdemeanor. My dictionary says, "a misdemeanor is a crime less serious than a felony. Nowhere – either on or off any college campus – is a misdemeanor a protected right of free speech.
I agree as a 70+ survivor of Nixon Regan and the US Navy.
Ditto on the age; 77 to be exact. I had no love for Nixon, but he does get credit for reestablishing diplomatic relations with China , and in proposing a guaranteed minimum income administered via the IRS in place of multiple social agencies he was ahead of his time. Watergate and "Tricky Dicky?" No comment!
Reagan I liked and respected. He didn't pretend he knew everything and he had the good sense to find, listen to and keep good advisors. Contrast that with our former President who hired, ignored and fired almost all of his competent advisors and treated them like greenie, reality candidates on The Apprentice!
Regan was an idiot’s ideal say anything do anything he was told to do…
Regan Era when CEO's got rich and workers became slaves.
First, whether you like the guy or not, at least learn to spell that former President's last name "Reagan."
Second, if Reagan was an idiot's ideal saying or doing whatever he was told to, I suppose that makes TRUMP an "f"ing genius because he says or does NOTHING he has been told to do! He who knows everything better than anybody, God included!
Noel, RR was a likable guy. But I didn’t AGREE with him often. Plus imo a President with Alzheimer’s was probably not the best thing.
I remember thinking that an inordinate number of Reagan’s cabinet members were indicted by grand juries for corruption. He did not surround himself with good, upstanding people.
You might be correct Dr. I don't recall it that way, but I haven't looked it up either. I do recall Reagan's foreign policy successes, especially with Gorbachev; revitalizing a badly depleted military; and some (but not all) of his tax reforms. As for "Teflon Ron," he did avoid some potential problems, but often others accepted responsibility for his actions. Loyalty given by choice as opposed to the loyalty by coercion insisted upon by Trump, whom I often credit with entirely ending any and all competition for who was the worst US President ever!
Their anger has been misdirected toward Israel, when the real monsters are Hamas. Palestinians should be resisting Hamas, not condemning Israel. The students should be supporting democracies worldwide, not a theocratic autocracy like Palestine. Hamas manipulated the whole war to ensure there would be excessive civilian casualties. They trapped them there. They did not store in supplies knowing full well what they were about to do. Israel warns before retaliating to take out the site where Hamas fired rockets hurting and killing innocent Israeli civilians, but Hamas would not allow the civilians to escape because they wanted the excessive civilian casualties. They could end this war today by agreeing to the cease fire and releasing the hostages. They won't because their mission, stated in writing, is to kill all the Jews in Israel and then in the world. Our ally is Israel, a democracy that includes over 2 million Arab citizens. The millions of dollars in propaganda is designed to spread vicious lies, calling Israel an apartheid nation when there are actually many Arab nations with zero Jews in its population. Israel is our ally, Palestine is not. Palestine is barred from joining the UN because their theocratic autocracy has an evil agenda. They are not owed land. If they were, Jordan or Egypt would have given it to them. Why is Israel expected to be responsible for enemy civilians in a war? This is unprecedented. Hamas is the one who just attacked the pier America provided for humanitarian aid. Israel did admit when they made a mistake and aid workers were killed. Still, Hamas is the one who created the whole crisis and they alone are responsible for every single death in this war.
Lots of propaganda in your diatribe there Jean.
And what you just said here is very Trump-like, an accusation with nothing to back it up.
Please the only Trump-like comment I see is yours. My statement needs no proof. The things you’re spouting are proven propaganda. Sorry you don’t understand that.
Again with the same Trump-like accusation void of verifiable sources. Everything I said is the absolute truth. Look up any part of it and you will soon find credible sources for every single word. All you did is reword your previous comment.
Jean-the SOURCE, is YOU YOURSELF......try a mirror maybe that will help....
Actually, not. I have read journalist accounts in reputable publications which you, yourself, could easily find if you wanted to see the truth. There seems to be some investment in believing standing against Israel is somehow not traitorous of democracy. Look it up. The UN will not allow Palestine to join because of their written intent to kill all of the Jews, first in Israel and then in the world. That alone should open your eyes as to who should be believed, and it isn't Hamas or their well-paid agents of propaganda.
You're an anti Semite.
Please be clear, who is the antisemite.
Jasmine, the line from your avatar goes up to JSO. All he said was "Look in a mirror..." Did you mean to call him/her anti-semitic?
Anti Semite or anti Palestinian civilian, it's the same. Like street gangs with different colour kerchief hanging from back-pocket, side-ism, enough to destroy an individual, is arbitrary points of view, all gone if equity were a goal. "They, them," as if Piggy-in-the-Middle game were fair. "You may have these types of freedoms, but not those," judge, jury, executioners, government of Netanyahu, or just himself, seems not answerable to the people of Israel who want to see peace. Shrill, shouting, to see "them" wiped out, is that nowhere?, "they deserve it," a disturbing illustration.
Sorry. You’ve enlightened no one to any salient point.
1. Noun
information, especially of a biased or misleading nature, used to promote or publicize a particular political cause or point of view.
"he was charged with distributing enemy propaganda"
For your enlightenment and Jean’s as well
Amber: Saying something is "propaganda" without proof makes it merely your opinion. Which you're entitled to, but don't be surprised if other commenters don't break out "Yay, Amber!" banners.
Agree. I’m seeing more histrionics than anything substantial.
If it's proven, please supply the proof -- otherwise we can only ignore your diatribe.
Jean-The EVIDENCE is, as implied, written by YOU yourself.....talk about "trump-like"~sheesh. We need not ignore the evidence you yourself provide, merely because you don't LIKE that we SEE you for who you EVIDENTLY ARE.
Exactly, when I saw that I knew that I was dealing with an extremely superficial individual.
I strive to tell the truth in all of my comments. I utilized reputable sources that you could also check. Stories by actual journalists with decades of experience, not talking heads on entertainment news stations or publications.
There were no sources, zero. Don’t give yourself so much credit bc there are all Faux News reports and headlines.
I may be wrong, but it seems to me that Jean Knowlton and Jan Churchwell (and several others following Reich's Substack) may be paid to spin this type of propaganda. Maybe they know the facts about the occupation, expulsion, and the massacre underway - maybe they don't know and they're desperately trying to ignore it. But most of this back-and-forth is a waste of time (distraction) because they're obviously very determined to pretend the US isn't facilitating Israel's genocide of the Palestinian population. Imagine the mind-games a person (like President Biden) has to play to ignore such inhumanity and injustice. It takes some serious self-deception to sustain such loyalty to a nation state waging a brutal war on the civilian population living in territory that state illegally occupies. It takes huge effort to rationalize that kind of hypocrisy. Anyway, it doesn't seem worth the effort to argue or try to educate them (I'm reminding myself).
Prove it, Jasmine. Where are YOUR sources?
You have nothing either Jean
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Actually there is proof of a lot that Jean says. We are not helping the Palestinians at all. Anyone who supports Hamas is brainwashed by them. The ignorance here is unbelievable as well as the double standard.
Who supports Hamas??? There are brain washed people but it’s not those of us who understand that people live and die in a military state under less than humane conditions. Two things can be true at once. None of us support Hamas and the Palestinians are not free.
Amber. Yours is perfect response. It's 2 sides, all crazy as each other. Most of Israel can see Netanyahu sails towards exterminating and says, No that's them. They don't see it. I can't understand.
Then where are the 'I DEMAND THE RELEASE OF HOSTAGES BY HAMAS" statements.
Every single one of you Hamas sympathizers refuses to do this.
Starving Palestinian people, hostages, stuck under boot of Israel political agenda (most Israeli's are appalled by their government, am I wrong?), in order to get your way doesn't help feed the hostages.
Tell palestinians and their families to release the hostages (even the dead ones they are keeping). Tell hamas to stop using its own ppl as human shields. Go ahead and demand they release them. So far not one protester seems able to do this....
As I posted, I do. They appear to be the only attempt to effectuate a change in the status of the oppressed majority. They have succeeded in putting on hold the normalization of Muslim countries WRT the Zionist entity, and created increased action by the "axis of resistance".
How insulting, so I'm brainwashed. I support Hamas, but think they "shot themselves in their feet", by not ensuring all attacked only the IDF and police, and took only young IDF age male hostages. Their anger stoked vengeance, instead of careful action.
Strongly disagree. She understands the narrative perfectly.
Can you elaborate?
1. Noun
information, especially of a biased or misleading nature, used to promote or publicize a particular political cause or point of view.
"he was charged with distributing enemy propaganda"
Only Hamas?
US classified intelligence -> Trump -> Russia -> Hamas -> attack on Israel on Putin's birthday
Iran appears to be involved, too.
Meanwhile Netanyahu ignored all warnings by Egypt, Jordan, etc. about an imminent attack. His motives are unclear, but he seems to be using this war as a way to stay in power regardless of the international consequences.
They all benefit from this none of them care about a breathing soul but themselves. They wanted this war, Putin Trump, Hamas and Netanyahu.
Don't forget Biden, the main funder using our money
Yes, I read that story, and then the news stories that debunked it. Netanyahu did not know or have advance knowledge of this attack. He is not my choice of leadership, but Hamas actually shaped it. People vote in these types of leaders when they are afraid and who caused the fear? Hamas. There was movement afoot to remove Netanyahu, but then Hamas started this war because they realized they could use his response to turn world opinion against Israel. It's too bad students are not wise enough to see through the pure diabolical evil that is Hamas. While Netanyahu is not the best leadership to have in place right now, he is nowhere near the level of evil that is Hamas. Everyone should stop falling for the Hamas shell game where suddenly they stand aside from what they just caused, and blame Israel instead. Kind of like Trump and the January 6 riot he incited.
Following your logic, would mean world opinion turns now against Netanyahu, government sunk, will result in a conciliatory effort. FEED them and caged come on-side with vision for solution-seeking. Policy of starving enrages them more. Hamas has power among population because a) opposition means death; and, b) fighting either one of your captors results in death. //"There was movement afoot to remove Netanyahu, but then Hamas started this war because they realized they could use his response to turn world opinion against Israel," is victim-blaming. //Israel HAD steady Intel-reports that preparations were happening on the border, border guards died; the one that survived talked about placing-bets on who would be on-shift when it came to pass--You imagine Oct 7 was a surprise? Just as plausible is that Netanyahu allowed it to happen. //See? Same as your theory that Hamas planned their own deaths in order to screw-around with Netanyahu's reputation. Illogical. Netanyahu was COMPLACENT and thus complicit. He can wear that. Kick him out, stop the slaughter.
Whether Oct 7 was a surprise to a few govt officials or not doesn’t mean it wasn’t a hideous shock to the people.
Kind of like Pearl Harbor.
Jean, it’s apparently not only students who aren’t wise enough to see the real evil.
He wants the oil off the cost (Netanyahu). He wants to take over the West Bank and Gaza...
NutNyahoo is irrelevant. The Jewish state is under existential threat. They are our allies. Not the rape apologists.
The Jewish state is hardly under existential threat with the 4th most powerful military in the world, and the power of the US behind it.
Israel isn't much of an ally- draining us of huge amounts of money that could be put to much better use back home, and trying to drag us into a war with Iran.
I’m sure you can understand the perilous nature of a very small country surrounded by enemies from all sides. Fortunately for Israel, Muslim Arabs are inept soldiers.
I would say the IDF are inept. They kill far more civilians than Hamas.
Various Arab countries made proposals during the 1990s and 2000s to recognize Israel in exchange for a 2 state setup, in essence a recognition of Palestine by Israel. Israel wouldn't even consider it. So much for your poor dear little country "surrounded by enemies on all sides".
Patricia P, have you looked at a map lately?
The IDF commits plenty of rape
Stop with your brainwashed hasbara already.
Young North American Jews are FAR too smart to buy into it.
Too many former IDF soldiers are telling the stories of the atrocities they committed against innocents in Gaza. Here are two words for you -- courtesy of Zionist Israel: MASS GRAVES.
Actually, the Israeli soldiers found the mass graves, they did not create them. Check facts yourself before you accuse truth tellers of lying. Everything I said was verified by credible sources. You are the one who just shared propaganda, and very obvious propaganda. https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/un-rights-chief-horrified-by-mass-grave-reports-gaza-hospitals-2024-04-23/
It is YOU who lie. I had family killed by the Nazis in Poland. I recognize monsters when I see them.
My family also and she speaks the unvarnished truth.
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LIAR
Unbelievable...
Yeah, there's a lot of lying going on. There are Jewish students protesting. They can't even see their own anti Semitism. Thank you for helping to call them out.
This whole thread illustrates what happens when we demonize one side in this conflict. Both Hamas and Israeli leaders have been despicable. Both ought to step down since they have demonstrated clearly that they can't lead. When we point fingers we're just doing what the leadership of both sides have been doing.
So the Palestinian people aren't allowed to defend themselves against the occupying forces🤦♀️ Did you root for the resistance in Star Wars? If so, you're doing it wrong now.
OMG, yours is nut-shell analysis. Both as bad as each other. Protest is not "sided," it's against both. Propaganda uses Us v Them, instead of STOP, just stop.
Also true.
Social media and the isolation bubble it creates where the indoctrination creates an echo chamber is the worst kind of weapon used to incite hate and rage. None of it based on verifiable evidence or documentation.
This is how racial genocide begins.
Getting out of this kind of mindset is imperative to slowing this cycle down and stopping it from becoming a monster that no one can stop.
You sure have it backwards - the IDF has tortured and murdered hospital patients, workers and doctors. It's completely destroyed healthcare infrastructure in Gaza. The mainstream media in this country is overwhelmingly pro-Israel so it is not a credible source.
Kai, first rate Hasbara!
Your first war Thomas?
Jean, you are absolutely accurate in your assessment.
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I abhor the Gazan deaths and the nightmare unfolding. But every word you said is a fact. Billions of dollars have been fed to the Palestinians from Qatar and Iran. How was that money spent? Tunnels and rockets fired into Israel. Please ask Israeli kids how many times they have had to run to a safe room as their communities were attacked.
This whole exercise in terrorism is a tool of the radical religious leaders in Iran. And their partner Putin is chuckling as it distracts us from his decimation of a neighbor. Where are the demonstrations for Ukraine?
I agree that students have every right to peacefully protest as long as it doesn't interfere with the studies of others. As long as it doesn't involve antisemitic behavior. As long it is actually students and not outsiders.
Excellent post, Bill!
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There are two sides to every story. And this one is no exception. If I were to witness my family being slaughtered on October 7th, would I be an man of peace? If I were to have dragged the dead bodies of my family out of a bombed building in Gaza, would I support Hamas?
Someone needs to break the pattern. Just as they did in Ireland.
Sorry, not my intention. IMO, Netanyahu and his radical members of the cabinet have been monstrous. And the complaints by Palestinians for decades about their condition has been dismissed for much too long.
But...terrorist violence by Hamas has plunged them deeper into awful circumstances.
I don't have the answer other than perhaps every woman just yelling STOP at every man.
Israel was attacked by land, sea and air on 10/7. The genocidal maniacs tortured these people’s dogs. The pictures were gruesome. The genocidal Palestinians killed every man, woman, child and BABIES. And then they went home to celebrate. This is not difficult people ! Talk about moral decay in the West.
Have you seen the gruesome pictures of starving Palestinian children, and children with limbs blown off from incessant Israeli airstrikes? The genocidal Israeli snipers kill children as young as 3 years (and up of course), ambulance drivers, women waving white flags. Talk about moral decay in Israel.
Before or after Oct 7, PP?
Israel has killed hundreds of aid workers and journalists, and bombed homes, hospitals, schools, universities into rubble. Israel has grabbed Palestinian land for its own lebensraum. Palestinians are owed the land they live on; Israel is not. Also, 68% of Israelis polled think the human beings in Gaza should be starved to death. Cruel and ghoulish. There are plenty of atrocities on both sides.
Pro-Israel groups in this country have spent decades indoctrinating Americans with the notion that Palestinian is synonymous with terrorist, so we will always favor Israel. They have been quite successful.
Help me understand how a theocratic fascist government like HAMAS has a functioning free press. I keep hearing about how Israelis killed 100 Palestinian ‘reporters.’ An absolute charade. And I think people are catching on to this.
Yes, send in the cops and put down this dangerous spectacle. MAGA Mike made more sense than many in my Democratic Party. That is embarrassing and despicable. And it will help usher in fascism in November. Just like the adherents of Islam have stated for decades. The US is the Great Satan after all.
Jean, yes, a "real monster is Hamas." Consider, Palestinians can't "resist Hamas" because Israel brands them ALL. Students DO "support democracies," but Netanyahu is a political animal, self-styled, mean-spirited, blinded with rage and enraged advisors, not problem solvers, not conciliatory for innocent people that are not similar to him. "Me and mine," is Netanyahu AT THIS POINT.
Hamas?, "trapped them there"? Consider, hours of delay at frontier simply to go to WORK, Israel was boss--pot boiled, no surprise! "Israel warns before retaliating," is naive. Israeli soldiers can be indiscriminate, and Netanyahu finds he has no power over loose-cannon-rogue troops, and with that Netanyahu is unconcerned. Hamas cannot "end this war if they want," caged; but Netanyahu could.
Israel's "mission, stated in writing, is to kill," you pretend not to understand, it obviously runs both ways. "I have friends that are Arabs," seems naive, too. Consider, there are 2 classes of people, tribes. "They are not owed land," meantime settlers, shrill or calculating, make entitled decisions to kick Palestinians off land that Settlers decide to develop, and courts are Israel's--can't win there.
"Why is Israel expected to be responsible for civilians dead?", um--because they are busying killing them. Israel's first "mistake" was as jailer of a population of underclass. Civilians are NOT "alone responsible." Self-concept is as victim, instead share it around and you'll see, Netanyahu is political and continuing to put the boot in. "STOP it all," is on him. He can't. He needs population and advisors to pressure him to, "Think different." Rudderless, angry. It's on him.
It’s a war VJ and it’s tragic. Mistakes are inevitable. The difference is intent. If Israel wanted to kill every Palestinian they absolutely could…in one day. But they don’t. Imagine if the opposite were true. Would HAMAS/IRAN destroy Israel if they could. Of course. And they vow to never stop trying. That’s genocidal intension.
They are killing them as fast as they can get away with.
How did that “jail” become a jail rather than a border? Palestinians have had choices over a long time. Each time violence from them gets them pushed behind another fence. It’s not my choice, I observe what they have done. To misunderstand the situation makes this terrible condition worse for all. https://youtu.be/AkPqR-Vm2ss?si=KWc_URsTtbbuyX5y
Palestinians can't and couldn't travel. They don't have an economy, no jobs. I'd call that jail.
VJ, there are LOTS of Arab gazillionaires. Why haven’t they helped Palestinians build an economy?
Watch the video. It’s a terrible situation. You can’t understand an epic movie unless you watch from the beginning. Facts and history matter.
I must agree. I also agree that peaceful protest is a vital part of college campuses, but how peaceful are these protests when graduation ceremonies are being cancelled and on campus learning is shut down? When it is the Jewish students being told to “go home” for their safety?
There is nothing peaceful about this. We aren’t stupid.
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Well said, Jean. I don't know why the students who seem to care so much about the Palestinians remain so ignorant about the facts.
What makes you think they are "ignorant about the facts?"
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Palestinians have been methodically killed for over 75 years...jailed, houses torn down, businesses destroyed...education denied...young children jailed and so many detained without rights. Speaking out about it is not antisemitic. My husband's family was one of them that were forced from their homes and business at a young age only to be a refugees for decades. They did nothing wrong. The world turned a blind eye to the Palestinian plight for almost a century now. None of us believe that the Jewish should be murdered. But..we also agree that neither should the Palestinians be murdered. I am glad to see that the youth of the world are brave enough, care enough and are actively participating in social discourse to stand up for the rights of others. It gives us hope for the future.
Cathie, I agree that all the destruction, displacement, and killing are horrible, but I can't balance the death counts: 1) About 24,162 Israelis and 85,902 Palestinians since 1948 (per Quora); 2) 6,000,000 Jews during WWII.
The genocide of the Jewish people. How many brilliant minds were undoubtedly lost in the Third Reich ? I’m not Jewish. But we all lost something that can never be replaced. I feel that loss too. I hope I’m not being insensitive saying this.
The Jewish people and their culture must be preserved in perpetuity.
Julia, AIPAC is virtually in control of our US government, so I would say they're doing just fine.
Jan, the Palestinians shouldn't pay for Germany's actions. That's absurd. And 750,000 Palestinians were forced off their land without even any compensation. In fact they were treated very brutally.
May 6 & no reply from Lisa H about why rich Arabs aren’t helping Palestinians in Gaza…
I've been dismayed by that, but from what I've read if the Palestinians leave, as Israel wants, then they've lost their land forever. It would be difficult to take in so many refugees. I think they should open the Rafah gates to let food in and allow people to leave. Egypt is no doubt afraid of angering the psychopathic government of Israel with its unlimited gifts of weapons from the US.
Rich Arabs have had 75 years to help Palestinians build an economy. When did they EVER?
Unless you have contacts in Egypt or other Arab countries, please don’t say silly things like they’re “no doubt afraid.” They aren’t afraid to supply troops and weapons. Where does Hamas get the rockets they regularly & indiscriminately fire into Israel? Why do they have rockets & not tools or trucks?
If protesters are being egged on, how much more incentive do unfriendly nations have to keep an entire region unsettled?
The UN offered Jews in Palestine a homeland, which was accepted. The UN offered Arabs in Palestine a homeland which was NOT accepted. Why should that be the Jews' problem? "Kill all the Jews" is an Arab war cry. Who should pay for it?
About the numbers: Don't put words in my mouth. I said (basically) that 85K+ dead isn't as many as 6,000,000. I was replying to someone who said the number of Palestinian dead since 1948 is horrible. Of course it is, and I said so. I hurt for everyone who's lost someone to violent death, whatever the method. But I hurt more for a group that has been persecuted repeatedly merely because it exists. That's my choice, and I stand by it. You make your own choices.
Several people here have asked why Arab nations couldn't help Palestinian Arabs. What's your answer to that?
The real monsters are the leaders of BOTH sides. If we take sides aren't we just doing what the leaders of both sides are doing? It's not helpful to demonize one side. The leadership of both sides have been despicable.
That’s wrong. One is a thriving democracy and the other an Islamic theocratic dictatorship. Which one would you rather live in?
Julia, one is a vicious racist killing machine made up mostly if Europeans and Americans. The other are indigenous people whose land, olive groves, homes and culture have been literally stolen. Britain gave away the Palestinians' land so that the Jews would leave Europe and move there. They said they did not belong in Europe, which was true antisemitism.
Well this is nothing short of brilliant, clear vision , well put. It a pity for the people of Gaza, it is unfortunate they excepted Hamas.
Twee, Nethu encouraged Hamas
Why should Palestinians support Israel?? Israel steals their land, drives them from their homes, burns their crops, treats them as second class citizens with over 60 laws on the books restricting their rights, incarcerates them indefinitely (including children) without charges or trial (presently over 9000), subjects them to 600 checkpoints in Gaza alone restricting any movement. The 17 year siege of Gaza has destroyed the economy leading to extreme poverty, as Israel restricts what goes in and what goes out. And the nutcase Jewish settlers, squatters really, in the West Bank, kill Palestinians and steal their lands and homes with impunity, all under the watchful eye of the IDF.
Hamas' charter states it is not against the Jewish religion, but against Israel's occupation, subjugation, and dispossession of Palestinians for the last 75 years. It has no plans to take over the rest of the world.
Palestinians are not "owed" land because it was theirs to begin with.
Israel is not now and has never been a democracy; it's a Jewish supremacist state formalized by law in 2018. It exists for Jews and everyone else is second class. Israel's been declared an apartheid state by Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, and smaller groups like the American Friends Service Committee (Quakers) and B'Tselem, and Israeli human rights group.
In case you didn't know, denying civilians food, water, medical care are war crimes, as is using white phosphorus on populated areas. This was all done by Israel, not Hamas.
Israel isn't much of an ally. It is draining us of money which could be much better spent here at home. And it is trying its darndest to drag us into a war with Iran and the entire Middle East.
Israel was warned of the Oct. 7 attacks multiple times in the months leading up to it, including by the Egyptian government, Israel has a very sophisticated intelligence service and it's hard to believe it disbelieved all those reports.
If you look at what Israel is actually doing instead of what it says it is doing, it's clear that this is not about Hamas, but rather the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians so it can do another massive land grab.
Boy, if this isn't advertisement to join HAMAS I don't know what is!
90% propaganda....
All factual.
paid propagandist?
L French. Conspiracy theorist?
Resist Hamas the same way that the people of North Korea have been able to resist Kim Jun Un? The way the people of Iran can resist the Ayatollah? The way the Chinese could resist Mao Tse Tung? How about the people of Russia resisting Joseph Stalin? You need to come back to the real world! Hamas took over Palestine, then executed the former leadership. It is not a democracy! There is simply no excuse for the indiscriminate slaughter of innocent women and children. Keep in mind that it is not necessary for one to be an Arab in order to be a terrorist.
The Hamas militants are freedom fighters -- The South Africans know an apartheid genocidal regime when they see it. Hence the partial agreement by the International Court of Justice.
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/key-takeaways-world-court-decision-israei-genocide-case-2024-01-26/
It's complex, few people can express a nuanced understanding of both sides without being labeled one thing or another. agreed, it's not antisemitism to express outrage at what's happening in Gaza. Blaming Jews for Netanyahu is like blaming Americans for Trump, when over half of us detest him.
People dislike us too for Trump. Rather, they probably think we’re all dim bulbs.
These protests are anti-Israel. Calling them anti-Semitic, is just a way of vilifying the protests. Anyone with any intelligence is not protesting Judaism, but rather genocide.
They are protesting on American campuses, harassing American Jewish students, simply BECAUSE THEY ARE JEWISH. By definition, that's anti-semitic.
Agree.
Israel is a country; Judaism is a religion; the two should not be conflated. Criticism of Israel is legitimate.
Cyn, that ain't happening. It's propaganda
I know Jewish families with college students. Yes, it is.
There is no genocide being committed by Jews in Gaza. Show the math and the definition of genocide if you want to be taken seriously at all.
The ICC says that Israel is plausibly committing genocide and most people in the world can see it except for extreme pro Israel fanatics. You call Palestinians genocidal and yet they haven't committed nearly the murders Israel has.
Julia, you can't be serious. My god, have you no heart?
Good.
I have a heart most definitely. But it’s not wise to let emotions override logic and reason. Israelis didn’t want this war. And may I remind you Israelis are suffering also. I can’t even watch an ASPCA commercial without running from the room. I want to send them all my money. That wouldn’t be wise.
The truth is we don’t know the true death toll in Gaza. Hamas does not separate combatants from civilians. Also, there is an element of manipulation of our emotions that Hamas preys upon. They don’t value the lives of their people. The UN (which I once had great respect for) is corrupt. In matters of genocide, intent matters. If evidence of genocide arises, I will admit I’m wrong. It will have to come from more than one source.
Julia, you have the Hasbara down perfectly and are truly unable to care about the Palestinians. We have nothing to say to one another.
The current protests may be anti-Israel, but what's coming out is that anti-Semitic harassment and violence is increasing on campuses.
I doubt any pro-Palestinian protesters are asking Jewish students about their politics before beating them or spitting on them or yelling anti-Semitic slurs, whatever.
Anti Muslim attacks and smears have increased exponentially since Oct. 7 yet this is hardly covered in western media. One of the worst examples is the murder of a 6 year old American Palestinian boy in Chicago.
I'm in Chicago, and that horrible event got LOTS of coverage. For a few days.... But the killer was arrested immediately so there was nothing to follow up about. Also, when you don't see a story getting "legs," maybe the family has requested respect for their privacy.
I agree with you in principle about "directional bias," but this thread is about anti-Semitism and campus protests, not the USA's general appalling human rights dichotomy.
That's ALL lies. Not happening.
Prove it. Patricia said it's not getting coverage, so good luck.
Hey, Robert. I have a substack called The Gene Pool. I wrote on this subject a few days ago. Here is what I said, in response to a reader question. -- Gene Weingarten
Q: What do you think of the arrest of students at Columbia and NYU for protesting the war on Gaza?
A: Glad you asked. I think that the faculty should demand the ouster of the presidents of those two universities.
These were peaceful protests; heated, but peaceful. Trespassing is not ordinarily an arrestable crime, and has historically been used as a tool for legitimate dissent. Universities are places to learn and hone critical thought, which is based upon intellectual conflict.
The underlying fact here is a dreadful, merciless war upon an innocent citizenry; mostly women and children are dead. Wherever you stand, it is clearly an issue for debate and moral parsing and protest. I’m sure there is vile antisemitic verbiage among some of the protesters, but that should be part of the critical dialogue, a teaching moment. Colleges shouldn’t punish thought, even noxious thought, absent noxious action. Jewish students must be protected and their voices heard, but these debates should be encouraged, not subject to police batons and zip-tie handcuffs at behest of the schools.
I am a child of the 1960s. The statements and actions of the these universities are no different from the self-righteous, implacable, threatening voices of authority I heard in the 1960s, when the issue was Vietnam, except there is a crucial and more ennobling motive here. The 60s protests were in large part selfish: We didn’t want to die in a deeply unpopular, strategically unsound, ultimately pointless, racist war. These protests are on behalf of people ten thousand miles away. They come in reaction to their administrators kowtowing to insidious pressure from far-right politicians. This should be a crucible for critical debate.
I have long bewailed the social inactivism of modern college students. For years I’ve wanted to see a spark of the same passion and furor that drove us in the 1960s, rather than effete navel-gazing whining about microaggressions and such. Well, it has come. Here it is, at last, and I applaud it.
Well said!!
I do wonder how old these university presidents are. If they weren't part of Vietnam protests they might not understand how important they were and that cracking down with threats and arrests is counterproductive.
The protestors of the Vietnam era have been vindicated. History has proven that to be true. Pimping for Islamic terrorism is laughable were it not so utterly dangerous.
Maybe so, but presumably current presidents can read and have staffs that can fill them in on similar historical events. The average age of a college president is 60, so even though most of them would have been alive in the late 60's-early 70's, they wouldn't know much about Viet Nam except what they read or were told by older people.
Shafik isn't an American so her knowledge might be less, but born-and-bred American college presidents should be able to draw parallels.
The facts are that the United States government is fostering the Israeli government’s genocide of Palestinian civilians, and like students before them, the students are exercising their duty to protest.
Campus protests began after Hamas’ October 7 attack on Israel, when militants killed about 1,200 people, most of them civilians, and took roughly 250 hostages. Since then, Israel has killed more than 34,000 Palestinians in the Gaza Strip; at least two-thirds of the dead are children and women.
Protesting against the Netanyahu slaughter of innocents is not anti-Semitism. It’s also the case that anti-Semitic events are happening now and have happened, and those events do in fact stink of immoral, unethical, unacceptable violence, and historic ignorance.
Student demands vary. Student governments at Columbia, Harvard Law, Rutgers and American University have passed resolutions calling for an end to investments and academic partnerships with Israel. Other demands include universities’ divestment from companies such as military weapons manufacturers that are supplying arms to Israel, cessation of accepting research money from Israel for projects that aid the country’s military efforts, and/or halting investments in endowments with money managers who profit from Israeli companies or contractors.
These are fact-based analyses by students, who have learned well.
One thing in particular should come across Speaker Mike Johnson's event horizon: it is not the business of the Speaker of the House to tell a university President to resign, nor to tell the world that the President of the United States should tell a university President to resign. It is the business of the Speaker of the House to advance legislation that benefits the People of the United States of America. There is a great pile of legislation that has not been getting anywhere since the Republican Party took the majority in the House. Republicans in the House and Senate killed a major bipartisan border policy bill. Reforms to bedrock programs like Medicare and Social Security are desperately needed but no closer to getting passed. In 2023, the House passed 27 bills. No more. Compare this to the 713 bills passed by Congress during one year of the Reagan administration, 1987–1988.
Mr. Johnson is working for us, on our dimes. It would be good to get our money’s worth.
What happens when the National Guard is called out against student protesters? The Kent State shootings were the killing of four and wounding of nine unarmed college students by the Ohio National Guard on the Kent State University campus. The shootings took place on May 4, 1970, during a rally opposing the expanding involvement of the Vietnam War into Cambodia by United States military forces as well as protesting the National Guard presence on campus and the draft.
Twenty-eight National Guard soldiers fired about 67 rounds over 13 seconds, killing four students and wounding nine others, one of whom suffered permanent paralysis. Students Allison Krause, 19, Jeffrey Glenn Miller, 20, and Sandra Lee Scheuer, 20, died on the scene, while William Knox Schroeder, 19, was pronounced dead at Robinson Memorial Hospital in nearby Ravenna shortly afterward.
The shootings triggered immediate and massive outrage on campuses around the country. It increased participation in the student strike that began on May 1. Ultimately, more than 4 million students participated in organized walk-outs at hundreds of universities, colleges, and high schools. The shootings and the strike affected public opinion at an already socially contentious time over the role of the United States in the Vietnam War.
Eight of the shooters were charged with depriving the students of their civil rights, but were acquitted in a bench trial. The trial judge stated, "It is vital that state and National Guard officials not regard this decision as authorizing or approving the use of force against demonstrators, whatever the occasion of the issue involved. Such use of force is, and was, deplorable."
Do you remember this song? https://youtu.be/l1PrUU2S_iw
Thank you!!! As a Kent Stare grad I appreciate your insight. It’s time this generation gets involved.
Your facts are fiction. No matter how many time you say genocide and click your heels three times you won’t be in Kansas and there is no genocide being committed by Israel. Don’t you think they know they are under a microscope? It would be suicide for them. I can’t believe anyone would believe Israelis PURPOSELY killed the aid workers either.
One day real soon the governments of Western democracies will travel to Israel to learn how to fight urban warfare with ISIS while aiming perfectly to avoid civilian injuries and death.
So the killing of 34,000 citizens is not genocide, Julia? Here is the definition of genocide: the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group. You're not a very useful witness, kid.
What evidence do you have that Israel is seeking to exterminate the Palestinians ? Israelis alerted Palestinians with texts and leaflets warning them to leave before they bombed the tunnels built under Gaza. Palestinians have claimed they were victims of genocide for years. The population of Gaza more than doubled in the last two decades. ALSO, the death stats are provided by HAMAS, a terrorist organization. The number you provide does not take into account the combatants killed vs civilians killed.
Between 4/7 and 7/19 1994, 500,000 to 800,000 Rwanda Tutsis were massacred by the Hutu militia. THAT was a genocide. Between 1933 and 1945 six million Jews were systematically exterminated by the Nazi regime because of who their ancestors were. Medical experiments were conducted on Jews. Heinous medical experiments with no anesthesia. Israel had a right to respond to being attacked after on 10/7/2023.
You got any other bright ideas for me Martha. People die in war, children too. Any other country would have attacked Hamas without mercy. Or maybe there is latent antisemitism lingering in that brain of yours kid.
34,000 dead women, children, noncombatants is evidence that stands up in court. Your position is not tenable.
Intentionally delusional Julia
Not intensionally delusional Lisa. Time will tell. I can admit my fault. I don’t want anyone hurt or killed. But I love the Jewish people and I’m not even Jewish. Go figure!
I love the Jewish people who are willing to see that Israel is very guilty of atrocities and it's whole founding was at the expense of another population and the theft of their land and the dehumanization of their people. I especially revere those who are willing to see that Israel was founded as a way to get Jews out of Europe, not to rescue them,and also as a way for the West to have a base in the middle east. It was an outrageous case of Britain giving the Palestinians' land to the Zionists. Look who got screwed.
Its not it's lol. Damn autocorrect
Absolutely right, I say—as a Jewish American.
Agreed.
Went to UConn in the 70s .
Remember black students taking a stand at the library.
Remember Vietnam protests.
Was good and Healthy.
Kent State shootings were a disgrace.
Thank you for your thoughts.
Peaceful is the word.
Kent State grad here. I couldn’t agree more. I have wondered where the college students have been. About time they became involved and became a voice.
You are correct, Professor Reich. And condemning Netanyahu is not antisemitism either. Even the Israelis condemn Netanyahu. It is no different than condemning the jihadists while respecting Islam, What those students (and me) are condemning are wrongful actions on behalf of Netanyahu and Hamas
Jihad and Martyrdom are the very definition of Islam. That’s why we’re in this mess to begin with ! Literally no other religion on Earth commands people to die and kill for Allah to collect their 72 virgins. And how could you possibly defend strapping suicide vests on tiny children while celebrating that child’s death. The most perverse ideology and rotten to the core.
That may be your definition, Julia. But I have a number of very dear Muslim friends who say Mohamed preached peace and love, in their view the Jihadists are like our Christian fundamentalists any fight for their religion is good. For me - I'm an atheist - I have no god, just an innate moral and ethical direction.
I do apologize Fay. Political Islam scares me if I’m being honest. I’m terrified the protests on college campuses and in other places will bring Trump back into power. It may be too late anyway. I’m agnostic myself. There are wonderful Muslim individuals out there who are genuinely excellent human beings. I’ll do better in the future. I’ll be more careful Fay. Thank you~
No need for apology Julia. Your fear is understandable. The middle east is a bewildering problem for all of us. On the one hand we have Iran supporting and supplying terrorist groups to attack not just Israel but other Countries that are clearly Islam (Muslim) and with the Houthis - pirates who attack international shipping. On the other hand we have Netanyahu a man equally evil to our own trump. Netanyahu has publicly stated his intention to kill ever inhabitant of Gaza no matter age, gender, or participation in the war. And as all of us know two wrongs never make a right. For myself, I'd like to see Netanyahu facing trial in Israel for which he has already been indicted on fraud and corruption. The only reason he is not in prison is he got himself elected Prime Minister again. I'd also like to see Iran totally isolated from the rest of the world, no trade, no travel, no foreign ministries, total isolation. Without Iran to back them Hamas., Hezbollah and the Houthis would collapse - problem solved.
Kent State still tears at my heartstrings. No place for National Guard on University campuses.
As a Kent grad I fully support your comment. The killings on May 4th changed the campus dramatically. The wounds still run deep to this day. But, the university has become better and stronger and that day had an impact on ending the Vietnam War. RIP to four dead in Ohio.
Why do you accept Hamas' accounting of at least 34,000 "civilian" deaths? Why does this murderous, hateful organization have your respect?
I can't help but get annoyed when people say tge Palestinians should stand against Hamas! With what, they have no guns or army to go against them. I have extended family in Gaza and it breaks my heart to hear that the children are hungry and so scared.
I agree that it's useless to say Palestinian Gazan's should stand against Hamas. They'd be killed for opposing Hamas, we know that is true. It should break everyone's hearts everywhere to learn of the suffering of children in war. What kind of cold hearted person doesn't feel compassion for children -- for non-combatants! -- in a war zone?
Mike, The majority of Israelis, that's who.
Read the statistics. Over 80% of Palestinians approve of what Hamas did on 10/7/2023. They don’t deserve to die. But they elected Hamas. They hate Jews because they are Jews. They bear some responsibility.
And this poll was taken where? Under the rubble of what were there homes? Dying in hospitals because there are no medical supplies? Being gunned down in the streets as they follow Israel’s orders to evacuate. Again. And again. And again. BTW Gaza hasn’t had an election in 20 years.
I don't know where those statistics come from, but I do know that many were forced to vote for Hamas. I also don't believe they hate jews. They have grown weary of being controlled by th government of Israel, who decides when they get electricity and water each day. And now are deciding if aid can get through the borders.
I’m sure all those children voted for Hamas, and so deserved to die. 😡
....37,000 Palestinians killed so far - almost half, children- more than 1/4 women - and many many more wounded. I understand why some people would rather pretend it isn't true. But decades from now, those people will have to look back and recognize this moment when they refused to stand for human rights for Palestinians (and possibly, the genocide of Palestinians in an enlarged State of Israel. At some point, the truth is always
revealed.
Shouldn't we apply the same standards to Kurds, Uyghurs, Chechens, Rohinggya, indigenous Amazonians, etc.? We seem not to have the same strong sentiment we show for Palestinians (or Israelis, depending on which side we're on) even for the Ukrainians in the most consequential conflict since WWII, from which this Hamas attack on Israel seems designed to take away our attention. And ironically, surprisingly little uproar, at least in the way of protests or riots, has occurred regarding the attempted destruction of our democracy & takeover of our government by Trump & his russorepublochristofascist allies to turn our country into a Nazi-like tyranny. We're so concerned about a conflict between Palestinians & Israelis (yet again for the dozenth time in my life) & not about the fate of our own nation?
Absolutely - of course (same standards - human rights). But at this moment our government is funding and arming a powerful foreign state engaged in the killing of innocent people and decimation of essential infrastructure on a massive scale, insuring there is nowhere Palestinians can safely - and freely - live within the illegally occupied territories of Gaza, East Jerusalem and the West Bank. The US isn't currently funding and arming other powerful states engaged in genocide against an indigenous population - at least not to this extent. Since Biden is unwilling to limit or condition his support for the State of Israel - and has never acted in support of life, freedom and sovereignty for Palestinians - it seems incredibly urgent that peace and human rights activists speak up and protest. We only have this moment - this chance. If we don't succeed in changing the minds of Americans, the genocide in Gaza will continue until there are no Palestinians living in their native homeland. We'll have the rest of our lifetimes to regret that we didn't do more to save them.
Here's what I find distressing about your reply to my comment, L. French. Where do you get your information? For example "37,000 Palestinians killed so far -- almost half are children" Why do you want to believe this? You want the Jews to be the villains? Since you're so well versed on Palestinian deaths, you must have sources -- trusted sources -- to rely upon. Care to share them?
Holy crap, Michael! Just look at the wreckage and destruction! You do believe your eyes, don’t you? Do you really think that all those Palestinian civilians survived in all of those flattened buildings? This will be a dark stain on Israel for all of history. They even killed their own citizens and knew it when they did it. Netanyahu engineered a bloodbath, not a war.
How is it not a war? Hamas had 30,000 to 40,000 soldiers — now there are 4 battalions left —in Rafah — comprising 10,000 fighters. They (and Hamas leadership— must be removed as a threat. When Hamas attacked Israel as they did, they brought this destruction upon themselves and upon thei Gazans.0
...as I said....
Right then, no source for your BS, huh?
The Palestinian Health Ministry is responsible for the numbers which are considered reliable by UN agencies and most governments. You of course will claim that anything associated with Palestine is not.
What are your sources, by the way? Israel, that bastion of truth and rectitude?
🤡
It’s true and it’s tragic. Palestinians themselves may have several civil wars before they can rid themselves of the twin evils of Islam: Jihad and Martyrdom. I’m not passing judgment on Israelis for putting up barriers to protect themselves. Call it an “open air prison” if you must. Hamas and Iran are to blame. No one in their right mind would choose to live in either place: Gaza or Iran.
Israel, of course, carries no blame whatsoever
Is there an acceptable number of civilian deaths? Equal to the lives taken on October 7th? 2x that amount? 10x that amount?
Well, to be perfectly fair, Israelis would have to go in and rape, murder, burn to death alive, kidnap, rape some more, the equal number of Palestinians to call it fair. Then everyone could go home feeling justified.
That’s not how this works. You can’t measure this in the number of dead bodies. I feel so damn sorry for Jews. And they give so much to us in terms of advances in medicine, science technology. They are good people ! I’m tired of seeing them smeared.
According to the UN statistics since the 2000's, the traditional response is approximately 20 Palestinians to each Israeli. That's killed. Injured, the ratio is a bit higher. This time they're outdoing themselves.
Mike, all sources agree
Absolutely entirely untrue, Lisa. Do you also trust Hamas’ account of their barbaric attack on Oct 7th?
I don't see any sources disputing those numbers and the Israelis are jumping for joy. 10/7 was.a horrific attack,the details of which remain murky and disputed.Certain initial stories have been proven to be made up to make it look even worse.
🤡
That’s really impressive Jasmine. You put a lot of thought into that.
Thank you 🤡🤣
Thank you for this, Professor Reich. So clear.
You are right but they need to talk to the other side as you did with students. Agree that error on both sides has occurred and that no one side is right and the other wrong.
I don't have many words for what happened on October 7th. Just the word evil. And I have the same word for a government that has caged and oppressed and crushed another people, bombing their homes and forcing them to carry their belongings and wander around for food and water and some kind of shelter. If the situation were reversed, and Palestinians ruled Jews in Gaza, would that change your opinion? I can't think of a single historical example where rage and retribution have led to good outcomes for people.
The protesters, at least some of them, are confusing Jewish people from the actions of Israel’s government and its military. Harassing Jewish students on campus — spitting on them, cursing them, etc. — is anti-Semitic. For all the protesters know, the Jewish students may deplore the killings in Gaza as much as they do.
Did your read past the first line of Robert 'Reich's post, \ in which he rightly condemns antisemitism, but that is not his main point. He writes, "But there is nothing inherently antisemitic about condemning the ongoing bloodshed in Gaza that has so far killed at least 34,000 people, mostly women and children."
"Protesting this slaughter is not hate speech. It is what should be done on a college campus — taking a stand against a perceived wrong, at least provoking discussion and debate."
The students are protesting a perceived wrong, and Reich thinks they should have the right to do so--without being attacked by the police.
Is it possible to take your eyes off antisemitism long enough to appreciate the fact that Reich is saying peaceful protest should not be discouraged.