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founding

In the coming days, years and months, I would predict we will be seeing an increasing amount of student activism on the campuses, and with that increasing confrontations with law enforcement that is requested by these institutions to remove students from occupying buildings, etc. In this process, some will rise to become leaders of this movement. Some will be positive leaders and some will be negative.

Your story stimulates in me scenes that will occur in the future between students and authority figures including police. It is my fervent wish that the students will listen to the most reasonable and farsighted among them as their leaders as we will witness a new rise in student activism.

Historically, it has been the students who are on the forefront of change, and I personally support nonviolent student activism.

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founding

In the next few days, I hope to be visiting one of the campuses where student protests are currently occurring. My intention is to talk to students and listen to what is on their minds and attempt to figure out how I as one who was active in the 60s and 70s in anti-war movements might assist this new generation of protesters to be effective in their aims without causing violent confrontations. If I learn something of note, I hope to share it on thisforum.

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Marc ; Just beware those who are there to start provoking violence. I have read that some of the more violent "protesters" were found to not have any connection to Columbia! Provocateurs showed up in the 60's to mess up peaceful protests. There were classes for those who wanted to learn tactics to avoid being part of the problem ; to recognize trouble makers and how to not get engaged,

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Laurie, I think you’ve heard lies. Some people are pretty ruthless in the way they

put down the protesters. I’m sure there were a lot of people who were from the outside, who heard about the protesters and joined them in support, as I might have liked to do if I’d had the time. Then university heads and politicians called these other people “outside agitators.” That’s very insulting and demeaning. The students know what they’re doing. They don’t need outside agitators and I’m sure no one was such an obnoxious being. The stuffed shirts are jumping to conclusions and not crediting the students with the considerable intelligence I’m sure they have. That “agitator” nonsense makes me very angry. The vast majority of the students, according to accounts I trust, are peaceful. They’re not antisemitic—very many of them are Jews, anyway—and they don’t threaten anybody. The other day a very large group of counterprotestors attacked some peaceful protesters and caused injuries. The original protesters tried to avoid fighting with them. I’m sorry you’ve heard the hype and didn’t see where it was coming from. Those students are a great bunch. They’re horrified at the slaughter of the people in Gaza and they want their educational institutions to stop supporting Israel or Israeli companies that profit from the horrors.

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Carol ; I was thinking about those who threw bricks and broke windows.

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I remember those outsiders who were plants to try and get peaceful protesters to look bad and diminish their cause. It happened to Vietnam protestors, environmental protestors, and many more.

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Yes, Linda! It was a tactic to make the protesters look lawless. So "intervention" would be justified. Just like the "divide and conquer " tactic to get everyone riled up against President Biden! Most of US don't have all the facts about what can be done. Some of it is national security territory, no doubt. I believe that this whole thing was plotted by our enemies, and they are taking advantage of our obvious concern for innocent victims, while making Biden look bad. From October 7. Up to today! No matter what, we should not allow these criminals to game US! We certainly don't want tfg!

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Same thing happened during the George Floyd marches.

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The civil rights movement as well. Viola Liuzzo was killed in Selma by a group egged on by an FBI informan. (not exactly and outsider, and I'm curious about the people identifed at Columbia.)

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It's the armament industries who profit from war and have much influence. Eisenhower warned that this was a problem to be monitored.

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Carol F. Yost : most people are horrified at what is going on in Gaza, the West Bank , Israel. The fact that there are bad actors attacking peaceful protesters does not negate the genuine passion that the peaceful protesters are feeling, and their courage! There are those who want to destroy anyone in their way! Divide and conquer is a very old tactic. Sadly, it can be effective! Vote blue!

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read THE HIDDEN HISTORY OF ZIONISM BY RALPH SCHOENMAN on Amazon.

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I think they are protesting at the wrong venue - colleges are not the place - this is a political problem and needs protest in DC - unlike the 60s and the Vietnam protests was about taking young men out of college and drafting them into a war must thought unwinable

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May 3·edited May 3

Susan: war IS a crime! In Vietnam, innocents are killed by innocent young men who were drafted. Against most of their wills, and indoctrinated to hate and fear their victims. The eternal question : what were they fighting for? Better business conditions for greedy exploiters!? What was the justification for that war!? Control?

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Laurie - War is a Racket, by Gen. Smedly Butler. War is about oil in the mideast. and really good beachfront property. so yes, you are correct. protesting against war is holy and necessary. and yes, the right wing always sends in provocateurs. the right wing will never play fair. they can't win without cheating, because their "policies" are about exploitation, domination, and exlusion.

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There is one thing that pisses me off Laurie is people bloviating and moralizing about a subject of which they have no knowledge.

The only instance known of our soldiers killing innocents was My Lai.

When in combat and under fire, you adrenalin is pumping and you are scared as hell, especially of anyhing that moves. We weren't INDOCTRINATED to hate and fear. That is pure bullshit whipped up by asshats with their own moralizing agenda.

We were fighting to save the "communist cancer" from spreading, we really believed that, that was the era and times we lived in, the student rebellion was one of two factions, those who didn't want to get drafted and fight in some far flung war or brainwashed and motivatd by Marxist professors and adjuncts. Well perhaps some who really believed in the peace, love and brotherhood of man.

However Tom Hayden, Abbie Hoffman, etc were motivated by what they thought was Marxism, and saw all wars as capitialist imperialism, and that religious belief persists.

Irony is that Marx was not who his believers thought he was, he was in fact a proto libertarian who despised the lower class, whom he called proletariate. He was a staunch advocate of free trade and the 100% gold standard.

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Laurie, you’re correct. 100%.

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The IDF are the ones destroying the internationally designated Hamas terrorists - notice the "over 30,000 Palestinian dead" stat completely omits the 12,000 plus Hamas terrorists!

Netanyahu is terrible but any replacement will either continue to eliminate Hamas or be replaced by one who does:

Hamas has carried out attacks against Israeli soldiers and civilians, including suicide bombings and indiscriminate rocket attacks.[85] These actions have led human rights groups to accuse it of war crimes. Argentina, Australia, Canada, Israel, Japan, Paraguay, New Zealand, the United Kingdom, the United States and the European Union[44] have designated Hamas as a terrorist organization. In 2018, a motion at the United Nations to condemn Hamas was rejected.[e][87][88]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas

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Susan : The personal is political and it is vital that oppression be countered. A college is a natural place for expressing thoughts and opinions. If a law is made that women must wear a head covering. That is a big deal! If she is denied medical care even if a victim of rape. That needs to be discussed. If we want a Democracy, we must actually DO it! Observe it: participate in it! As we have seen with our Constitution, it is not ' self enforcing' we must act! With intelligence! Knowledge! All irreplaceable, necessary. College is the ultimate place for important discussion.

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How interesting Laurie. The campus protesters are protesting in the defense of an ideology that demands that women not only wear a hijab, but cloak themselves in bee keeper suits, covering everything but their face, and deny women any rights under than to be breed cows, sexual and domestic servants and nannies.

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No, they’re right. Colleges and universities invest in various things which may include Israel and Israeli companies.

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If not college, where? Most communities require permits. Malls were the new "downtown" we know that privately owned malls ban things like that. Musk bought a large 'town square'. Some speech is banned! What a surprise, huh!?

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The students are protesting the government involvement with Israel and what’s happening in Gaza with the civilian population- why aren’t they protesting us DC and why aren’t they calling out Hamas for instigating this whole mess ? Iran is supporting and funding those terrorists and the holding of over 100 hostages - Hamas unwilling to return or sign peace treaty - why aren’t they protesting at the Iranian embassy ?

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May 3·edited May 3

I'm not a spring chicken and I was on the ASU campus during the protests. The students I spoke with weren't interested in discussing the violence in Israel or Gaza. When the police finally broke up the protest, only 15 of 72 were students.

Were there agitators there? I'd suggest yes. Google Lisa Fithian and tell me if Columbia 'students' would have occupied the admin building if she hadn't been there.

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LOL, seizing buildings and common areas on college or university campuses isn;'t "peaceful protest," nor is the noise pollution, nor is preventing other students from access to their office labs, and "non-negotiable demands" are classic bullying tactics. Not only that, the bogus "Palestinian dead" figures completely omit the over twelve thousand Hamas terrorists!

camera-uk.org/2024/02/06/can-there-be-a-decent-pro-palestinian-left/

Hamas has carried out attacks against Israeli soldiers and civilians, including suicide bombings and indiscriminate rocket attacks.[85] These actions have led human rights groups to accuse it of war crimes. Argentina, Australia, Canada, Israel, Japan, Paraguay, New Zealand, the United Kingdom, the United States and the European Union[44] have designated Hamas as a terrorist organization. In 2018, a motion at the United Nations to condemn Hamas was rejected.[e][87][88]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas

And don't start in on the "One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter," that route leads to epistemological nihilism very quickly - there are excellent criteria for distinguishing terrorists from legitimate resistance groups, included ARMED resistance groups, and Hamas (Islamic Jihad in Palestine, Hizbollah, the Houthis, etc.) are not among the latter.

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Why were so many of the encampments formed of identical tents?

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Laurie, it seems in many protests of all kinds, there are folks who believe in the cause but get too wound up, and move their actions into violence or provocation and there are those who want the excitement of being in something noisy, even violent so they can say they had been there. Then there are those who are against the protest whatever it is and will do damage and blame it on the protesters. Police can be like that, and often are. I just read about a professor at Washington University in St. Louis who was beaten by police for participating in a peaceful protest, and hospitalized with some pretty serious injuries. Police wading into a protest with riot gear is an incitement. They/We should have learned that from the Vietnam War protests and Black Lives Matter, but somehow, memories are short and police become power-obsessed and we get what has been happening on dozens of campuses around the nation. Young people are the protesters because they have the energy and the new ideas. We should be listening to them. If we did more of that, there would be less student-involved violence.

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May 3·edited May 3

Ruth : All that you mention is why we value Peaceful Protests! The message is garbled and mangled when violence erupts! Our enemies want to take advantage of our passion. They would incite us and attack us 🇺🇸. Vote blue, no matter What 💙. Don't allow their lies to control the narrative, or ruin the peace.

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Laurie, I'm glad you said this. Mainstream news has absolutely been pushing a false narrative, evidenced by all the footage I've seen, that mainstream does not want to show, of police inflicting violence on peaceful protesters, peaceful students. I've criticized them numerous times. One telling omission, only reported on by one mainstream person to my knowledge, Laura Coates of CNN, is about 73-year-old Dr. Jill Stein, Green party presidential candidate, and Jewish, who was assaulted by police on the Columbia campus and arrested. I really take issue when I see phrases referring to the students such as "without causing violent confrontations." That's the widespread attitude or assumption, purely the result of mainstream's inexplicable propaganda.

However, MSNBC has been changing direction, possibly due to all the criticism I've seen. Clips to check out: "Chris Hayes: Why campus protests are the 'easier debate'", Alex Wagner's "Toxic U.S. political themes distort view of campus Gaza protests", Joy Reid's 25-minute interview, which satisfyingly blows up a lot of the general narrative, "Queen Rania of Jordan: ‘What’s happening in Gaza today… is a war crime’"...Queen Rania is Palestinian...and finally, Ayman Mohyeldin's "The media's hypocritical hysteria over campus protests"

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Thanks for these, Sharon!

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Provocateurs showed up for the George Floyd protests, & with their success in turning public opinion against the protesters, are no doubt trying to do the same here.

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Exactly Laurie, we’ve seen that happen over and over. The infiltrators are commonly used. In the Minneapolis protests over George Floyd was infiltrated by a guy from an ultra right group. He stirred up the emotions and started the violence. He was identified!

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@ Marc

1. School is out. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muMPiq-V1xE

2. Trump/Putin takes advantage of Caesar's advice: Divide and conquer. Many students are oblivious that this is the goal. If you meet them, keep a copy of Project 2025 handy. Tell them to get ready for concentration camps. Mass expulsions. Anti-Muslim laws.

3. Just a reminder. If they (and we) want a ceasefire, Qatar gave sanctuary to Hamas leadership. They could stop this at any time.

4. Speak to a few Christian Arabs who know they are next. Here's some history. https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2015/05/gaza-palestinians-tortured-summarily-killed-by-hamas-forces-during-2014-conflict/

5. Check out how much Arab money is invested in these institutions.

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founding

Daniel, at this point all I really wanted to do is engage in conversations and listen to what they have to say. Then from that I can make some educated choices regarding how I may wish to engage students when the fall semester begins. If I can tune in to some of the news sources and newsletters, they are using among themselves. I think it will be very helpful.

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Yeah - it’s good to listen to their questions - but many of the youth are uninformed and may be instigated into violence by outside sources

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@ Marc. How's your Arabic?

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Smh

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Many are better informed through Instagram reporting, etc.

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Marc you know what they have to say, you are being disingeneous. There cardboard signs say what they have to say. HAMAS good, Jews bad. That is what it boils down to.

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Ridiculous

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Yes it is ridiculous that the campus idiots champion terrorists.

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5. Or how about just billionaire money? Read about Brown U and the billionaire donor saying he won't contribute any longer? Finally we understand the reasoning behind mostly peaceful protests being shut down--donor $$$$$.

And how about the JEWISH Dartmouth professor slammed to the ground 2 hours after a peaceful demonstration began? Those police were called in quickly and with no warning by the U president. Now we understand why...

These tactics are needless and just add to the defiance. And Brown had done the right thing to acknowledge the students' concerns, but at Dartmouth, these university students are just "children". Children who can serve in the military.

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And finally Daniel, listen to this podcast with Meir Baruchim and

Chris Hayes and then tell me your view of "democratic" Israel isn't changed....

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/why-is-this-happening-with-chris-hayes/id1382983397?i=1000651158434

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Yes l remember both the T-groups and student activism from the late 60s and early 70s in South Africa. It was the beginning of a transformational era. Good luck in your mentoring role as l suspect there are some nasty people out only too happy to stir up others for their own purposes

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And Andrew that statement is very definitely both sides ism.

Who do you think is behind campus protests? People who are stirring them up for their own ideological agenda. (Religion is an ideology BTW)

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Intelligent compassionate students who are absolutely horrified by this collective punishment, ethnic cleansing, murder of children, doctors, reporters, intentional starvation, lack of anesthetics, destruction of hospitals, universities, schools. Palestinians have/had one of the highest number of PhD's for their population size. Anyone who thinks this is ok is frankly inhuman. Arab culture is ancient and was highly developed.

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That's the way you define your own reality Lisa But that is your reality..

Kind of like this latest meme of My Truth, There is no such thing as subjective truth,.

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Good to hear, Marc. Regarding student activism c. 1970, there were always "others" using the protest crowds to soapbox their own issues - hare krishnas were always on the fringes of every gathering.. Often civil rights and anti-war rallies drew people from both sides of these and other issues, which can energize or dilute the movement. Clarity is needed.

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Maybe my '60's experience with student protests in DC were atypical, but messing with drugs, protesting the war, and acting out in general were postures that some students took with less than a fully thought-out plan in mind. Young people are somewhat sensitive to how they are seen by their peers, protests were a kind of ritual that were happening on campuses around the world, people joined in, it was a distraction, and perhaps someone smoked a joint and passed it around. There were several of my class who were anti-war because they were anti- the idea of having to put on a uniform and have other people shoot at them, but they were not joining protests, they were heading to Canada and Australia.

I think today's student are better informed than we were then -- and probably have a better-developed sense of crap-detection (the Pentagon Papers were published in 1971, after my undergrad days were over), so perhaps there are very well-informed and sincere believers in the idea of a cease-fire possibly leading to actual peace. I'm afraid I am skeptical. I forsee no peace in my lifetime, though I hope for an end to the cruel and indiscriminate bombing of civilians and civilian infrastructure i n Gaza. But the chants and placards, posters etc throwing out slogans of "From the River to the Sea" and "Liberate Palestine" sound hollow. Peace will not come to that part of the world by trying to send Israel and all its people into the Sea. (But who the hell listens to Baby Boomers these days?)

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founding

R Hudson, you are correct. However, I believe as former leaders of protest movements, we may be able to exert some positive influence to those who are just entering the protest movement. For example, I would like to change the river to the sea chant to the following. “From the river to the sea, we will live in Harmony.“

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It would be epic if the actual residents could get to the point where THEY could chant that!

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I truly love that new chant, Marc!! We should all aspire to live in harmony with each other. It doesn't mean you have to like each other but at least respect.

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You may need to revive some of the Bob Dylan songs…..blowing in the wind.

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political peaceful protest has long been the grounds for inter generational relationships.

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While some people were heading to Canada, I was putting on a USAF uniform. That wasn't the most popular thing to do back then.

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founding

Yes, and many of our veterans were not treated with the respect they deserved for stepping forward in their part of what was perceived as a righteous struggle. My particular group, the Peace Brigade, was also actively involved in assisting veterans who returned and themselves opposed the war. However, we did not realize the psychological toll that many of them endured in that struggle to reenter society. Thank you for your service.

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Marc, heck, we don't honestly appreciate what veterans and other public servants do for this nation. That has always been true. It seems after the war is over, those guys are supposed to immediately switch from the death and struggle of war, into regular civilian life. I knew two men very well who did not reintegrate well into civilian life after WWII, one being my godfather. Both of them were good people for whom the transition was not possible at a workable level and there was little support for either of them. Protesting war of all kinds can be a good thing as long as the protests are accompanied with demands that match our nation's values (something that does not always happen), and could work. Calling for an immediate ceasefire in Gaza is a reasonable demand, so is divesting from corporations that support the Israeli killings going on in Gaza. The protesting young people deserve our support, recognition of their cause, and our voices echoing their demands. Unless there is actual violence that has occurred, the police need to stay out of the protests, since they are often the problem not the solution. These protests can be a learning ground for future leaders.

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Nicely stated. Thank you very much.

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founding

If I understand this correctly, the University labels, the students as trespassers and then request the police to remove and possibly arrest the trespassers that are on their property. It should be a simple, peaceful operation, but unfortunately, our police officers are not well trained to use psychological persuasion and minimal force. And exception to this that I have witnessed is the DC police who are very well trained in crowd control and de-escalation of potentially violent or physical confrontations. It is the students choice to stay in a building when the university has said you must leave. Then there is a likelihood that they may face arrest and suspension or dismissal from their school. Usually the police give the protesters a chance to leave peacefully and those that choose to stay to make a point to make it newsworthy will suffer some consequences. I would only hope that the decision they make has been well thought out before they choose to stay or leave.

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Exactly, Ruth

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As one of my fictional characters says: U no no wha' u no no. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_Veterans_Against_the_War

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And thank you very much for doing your part.

Many were much worse off than you and me. The "psychological toll" you mentioned might have been somewhat unique to that particular war.

What I mean by that is, during WWII men and women were ready and willing to go fight. They came home as heroes.

In the 60's war the same thing happened, except troops got the opposite reaction upon returning home. That had to be psychologically devastating, causing the psychological toll you mentioned.

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May 3·edited May 3

Please don’t neglect to recognize that veterans of WWI and WWII suffered “shell shock”, that era’s term for PTSD. Soldiers, as well as some sailors and airmen, suffer the moral injury that results from violating their own sense of morality.

War is our enemy and must be abolished.

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So very real, so very important and so very sad. Thank you for pointing that out. Nicely done.

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Evidently the terrorists don't agree, and that may be why the IDF is destroying THEM:

Hamas has carried out attacks against Israeli soldiers and civilians, including suicide bombings and indiscriminate rocket attacks.[85] These actions have led human rights groups to accuse it of war crimes. Argentina, Australia, Canada, Israel, Japan, Paraguay, New Zealand, the United Kingdom, the United States and the European Union[44] have designated Hamas as a terrorist organization. In 2018, a motion at the United Nations to condemn Hamas was rejected.[e][87][88]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas

Note that Hamas has NEVER agreed to recognize the State of Israel's right to exist, indeed, their most central vow is to destroy it.

In comparative casualty terms, the 1200 Israeli (and some from other countries at the music festival and elsewhere) dead would translate to around 40,000 US dead - in ONE DAY, mind you!

If the USA had some bordering territory occupied by an internationally designated terrorist state which seized power in a 2006/2007 coup, had no elections since, murdered their internal opposition, stole millions of dollars worth of humanitarian donations

to buy weapons and dig tunnels for bases under and around and inside every imaginable type of what would OTHERWISE be "civilian infrastructure," and launched tens of thousands of unguided missiles, mortars, and drones FROM civilian areas INTO civilian areas inside the USA - how long before the US would demolish their bases?

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That’s because the Vietnam war was not winnable- students taken out of college to go to a war against their will ( drafted)

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As far as I know, students were not taken out of college to go to war.

I and others had deferments while in college. Otherwise, I would have been drafted and never graduated. My draft number was 48, sure to have been drafted. My brother's was draft number 1.

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May 3·edited May 3

Yep, I joined the Army in 66, got out in 69. Marched on SF in '70 as a member of Veterans Against the War (or something like that). The Army was my T Group...... and it flipped my political leaning from Republican to 'None of the Above'. Although I still consider myself the Conservative I was brought up to be I've never voted Republican.

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My brother was drafted in his first year of college at 19- came home from Vietnam disoriented and became a “ grunge” not wanting to socialize and wore his army jacket for 3 years - my family didn’t find out until 40 years later that he had a Purple Heart, a silver star and 2 bronze stars - he still will

Not talk about what he saw there.

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May 3·edited May 3

Sorry your brother had such a tuff time. Our unit in Okinawa received a number of guys who were casualties but recovered enough not to be sent home. Usually these weren't physical casualties as much as trauma. Many adapted just fine to being in a Maintenance/Ordnance Repair unit but several were never able to and had to be re-hospitalized. Nobody knows how they're going to react to combat and most don't want to know. Most of the guys who were really in it never wanted to talk about it.

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Thank you for your service, Terry!

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You forsee no peace in your life time ? The Only thing I foresee is that if we remain passive innocent people will continue to suffer and die.

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I was one of those bright-eyed and optimistic kids in the 1960s. Went to Woodstock 1969 enthusiastically. I came to believe that at some point, humanity would get sick of war because everyone would “evolve” beyond a struggle for existence within a generation. But here we are, two generations later, still building lots of bombs and extracting as much profit from “the free market” as possible.

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You wised up, huh? :-)

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The facts are undeniable.

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I wish Robert had explained what he got out of that T-group. Anyway, in 1969, I would have stayed miles away from anything like a T-group. Had I been on the west coast in '69, I would have ventured to Big Sir, but not to participate in that sort of group. I would have gone to Big Sir to take part in the Celebration at Big Sir, a famous concert there in '69. That would have been more my speed. Robert was and is much more ambitious than I was so it makes sense that he did what he did. I got my degrees in Having a Good Time and Introspection of Another Kind, if you know what I mean. That is a life long endeavor which has no resolution. At least, not that I've discovered, yet. I was hoping that it would led to Peace and Love. I'm not sure I've found either to this point. I'm not sure they exist. Not to the degree that I have been seeking. I have found love, but it happens to be with my many cats. Humans are too weird, demanding and self centered. Life is a complicated endeavor, made even more puzzling and difficult by the idiocy of my fellow humans (I'm not excluded). The one thing I have discovered for sure; there is no such thing as Peace. It's counterintuitive to the idea of survival of the fittest. That could be a made up concept. Made up by Darwin after watching Penguins. I'm not sure there's a connection to human beings. The notion that competition leads to survival is ludicrously absurd. It leads to war and destruction. It leads to someone being beaten down. It leads to someone losing. Take a good look at our world today. Look at Israel and Gaza since that is the topic of the day. Peace is out of reach with the thinking of our "finest minds." And that's a goddamn shame!

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Thank you for your service, Dr. Bloxom! My sister made her career in the USAF. She retired a master sergeant, I believe. I was so very proud of her!!

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Thank you. My dad retired from the USAF as a master sergeant too. Your sister, my dad and others at that rank level make the military run like a well-oiled machine.

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I was in Flight 1632 at Lackland at around the same time.

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R Hodson, campus protesters are the same as in our day. It is a fun time, camaraderie, war stories, keggers or coffee Klatches, and this time the doobies and blunts are legal.

Fools seek notice, peer approval, distraction, significance, heroism. The after party is where it is at. Patting themselves on the back and telling "war" stories.

Meanwhile in their protest against being tools, they wind up being tools not of the establishment, but tools nether the less

I have to mention, that I haven't seen one campus protest about the genocide perpetuated by Putin inUkraine.. not one,not a peep. No surrounding the Republican headquarters or protesting in front of congress when the Republicans stood and stand for Putin and his campaign to obliterate the Ukrainean peoples and culture, Not a peep from these "righteous" students about the inhumanity and war crimes of Putin.

And they want to be taken seriously.. Freakin phonies.

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deletedMay 3
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Who said anything about funding Putin. Moral support, by not protesting, is enough.

Nothing is not as quite clear as a bigot, a partisan or worse, someone who lacks critical thinking skills.

What is happening in Gaza is horrible indeed, however blame the real perps, the people responsible.. HAMAS. They slaughtered the Jews brought back as many as they could carry as hostages, believing that the Jews would do anything to get them back, after all they released 1000 prisoners, including Yahya Sinwar, the terorist who is now the military leader of HAMAS, for one spindly Jewish soldier.

Now the Cowards use their own people as human shields.

Blame HAMAS., not the Jews.

And there you go again, misusing the word genocide, it makes you feel righteous doesn't it?

Genocide requires intent, and the only genocidal intent is on the part of HAMAS and Islam.

When you misuse and overuse a word, it becomes useless. When everything is genocide or antisemitism nothing is genocide and nothing is antisemitism.

Use that lump of grey matter between your ears Lisa.

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Haha. Like talking to a brainwashed wall.

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Yep that is the exact way that I feel Lisa.

Trouble is Lisa, you lack critical thinking skills, you are all emotions and you have become a tool.

Me I don't buy the bullshit, either Muslim or Jew or Christian or Hindu. I don't buy anyone's bullshit.

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What "civilian infrastructure" in Gaza?

americandreaming.substack.com/p/no-winning-a-war-isnt-genocide [Excerpt]

It’s been a tumultuous six months in the Middle East. After the Palestinian terrorist group Hamas attacked Israel on October 7th, 2023, killing 1,200 people, mostly civilians, in addition to raping, incinerating, mutilating, and kidnapping hundreds, the world watched in horror. Yes, there were many on the Islamic right and the Western left who found the modern-day pogrom cause for celebration — or, as a Cornell professor put it to a cheering crowd of students, “exhilarating” — but they were a clear minority. Israel was showered with a rare deluge of international sympathy, at least until they began fighting back.

In the months since, Israel has taken the battle to Hamas, who operate embedded within civilian population centers like hospitals and schools, and in extensive underground tunnel networks that run beneath residential neighborhoods. As Palestinian civilians in the thousands have been caught in the crossfire, Israel’s rare public relations honeymoon quickly evaporated. From the moment they started defending themselves, a growing chorus of critics has taken to describing Israel’s retaliatory strikes in the ensuing war as “genocide.” *****

americandreaming.substack.com/p/israel-and-genocide-revisited-a-response [excerpt]

“US federal law defines genocide as ‘violent attacks with the specific intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial, or religious group.’ Definitions vary slightly from source to source, and many legal scholars and historians disagree about its precise meaning, but broadly speaking, genocide refers to mass killing done with the intent to wipe out a particular people. [...] ‘Genocide’ was coined during the Holocaust as a way to distinguish crimes of such unimaginable magnitude from other kinds of atrocities.”

Based on the more than 3,500 comments I’ve received across platforms, we apparently have a new and improved definition. Things that are genocide now include:

Any civilian deaths.

Dropping bombs that kill civilians.

The use of unguided bombs.

“Indiscriminate” bombing (“indiscriminate" has undergone the same hyperinflation).

Lopsided casualty ratios (i.e. one side suffers more deaths than the other).

Lopsided casualty ratios where one side is a state and the other a non-state actor.

A militarily superior force fighting a militarily inferior force.

A wealthy country bombing a poorer country or territory.

Killing 10,000 or more people (regardless of intent or context).

Destroying large numbers of buildings.

Destroying infrastructure.

Destroying cultural artifacts or culturally important sites.

Any war crime.

Any violation of international law.

Ethnic cleansing (which itself has been redefined as “any time people have to flee from their homes”).

Obstructing aid or supplies (i.e. a siege or blockade).

Prioritizing military victory over maximal avoidance of civilian casualties.

Destroying the “concept” of a Palestinian people (i.e. saying Palestine isn’t a country).

Anything a US soldier protests via self-immolation. [More]

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I would love students & others to protest the maltreatment of other oppressed peoples of the world, march for women's & other civil rights, addressing climate chaos & environmental destruction, economic injustice & wealth & power disparity, the housing shortage & homelessness & poverty, universal healthcare, democracy over fascism, etc.

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In other words: Trumplicanism is dying and fast. PRAISE BE!

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I was on the Syracuse campus in 1970 after the Kent State massacre. Unlike other Chancellors and college Presidents, ours did not accept police on campus. What happened was the end of classes and a peaceful, thoughtful, goodwill energy from those of us who occupied the campus towards the Chancellor. I spent a night guarding a hole in the ground left unfinished by the construction companies for the purpose of building another building. We guarded it because there was a gas leak and we wanted no explosion on campus. Otherwise, there was music, there was food, there were teach-ins, there were thousands of undergrads and grads taking the threat against those who would take away our freedom to peacefully protest. There was no graffiti. One thing that did not get much attention was that students at the HBC Jackson State were killed in their protest and like Kent State and Syracuse, there had been no violence by students, no law-breaking, and not a whit of damage to the campus. Just hotheaded elders "on the muscle" to show us who was boss. Our Chancellor was one very wise, empathetic, secure, adult with a cool head and a generous heart.

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I think the current protestors have based their thinking on one idea about Palestine. As with many parts of the Middle East, it is complicated, not the least because of the distance from "their" culture and the western European of America. Hamas attacked. I wish the protestors would engage in conversation, rather than their way or the highway.

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Photo and Big Sur Step right in and Lead the group, brought a smile to my face and heart. Robert Reich. I’ve been an advocate of yours since Romney tried to run against President Obama. Where I first saw you speaking on video. It didn’t surprise me at all you flipped the guy, once revealed you’d been on the wrestling team. The shocker, that ankle grab, bringing you down, then vanishing, how unprofessional.

Big Sur, unorthodox, not really any biggie as the natural Leader had Revealed Himself, taken his rightful position in Group Dynamics. The True Leader Listens with care and understanding, allowing each person to feel safe to speak. Guiding the group to assure everyone, even quieter, reserved ones have time to share. Be and feel heard. Discussion flows.

Often if a need arises, there’s more opportunities for mutual respect and even resolution. Compromises can and may happen. Good things happen from the turmoil of emotions.

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May 3Liked by Robert Reich

He was a bully and got called on it. All of the “we had to fight” bullshit was just that. He chose you because he saw you as an easy win. You fought the bully and, as you know, they are cowards who don’t like to lose.

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May 3·edited May 3

I agree. I’m calling bullshit too. Perhaps I’m too skeptical or cynical, but I find it difficult to believe he assessed the group that quickly and then proceeded with his “plan” as he implied. I think he chose Mr Reich because, as you say, he assumed it would be an easy win. Then when it wasn’t, he was embarrassed, lost his cool, and walked out. And while he was out there then he devised the best story he could that would allow him to rejoin and save face with the group.

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Testosterone overload

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Bullies are indeed cowards they only pick on people they "know" they can bully until their victim punches them in the nose. Even if their victim lands a punch and gets beat up he will avoid bullying anyone who he thinks will fight back.

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LOL, you should have been there to explain that theory - it was a wrestling match, not duello!

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Gurdjieff

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His teachings sound similar to the premise in the Matrix series.

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Matrix

You would have to explain what premise reminds you of that comparison! Not the dystopian teleology, of course, so it must be something else.

Mystical states of consciousness have been described (or rather, distinguished by stating "No, not like this, not this, not this," a so-called *via negativa* path to a direct, first-person, non-inferential experience of *cosmic consciousness,* maybe The Matrix is alluding to altered states but again, I can't make out what is meant by a "similarity" beyond that.

From an Eastern and Western tradition, here are two philosophers I have studied in depth, I think either one is far closer to Gurdjieff:

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/nagarjuna/

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/cusanus/

If you scroll down on this article about

"Arguably the most important German thinker of fifteenth century, Nicholas of Cusa (1401–1464)," you find my professor in graduate school course on his philosophy:

Hopkins, J., 1978. A Concise Introduction to the Philosophy of Nicholas of Cusa, Minneapolis: University of Minnesota Press; 2nd edition, 1980; 3rd edition, Banning, 1986.

–––, 1981. Nicholas of Cusa on Learned Ignorance: A Translation and an Appraisal of De Docta Ignorantia, Minneapolis: Banning; 2nd edition, 1985.

–––, 1983. Nicholas of Cusa’s Metaphysic of Contraction, Minneapolis: Banning.

–––, 1985. Nicholas of Cusa’s Dialectical Mysticism:Text, Translation, and Interpretive Study of De Visione Dei, Minneapolis: Banning; 2nd edition, 1988.

–––, 1990. Nicholas of Cusa’s De Pace Fidei and Cribratio Alkorani: Translation and Analysis, Minneapolis: Banning; 2nd edition, 1994.

–––, 1996. Nicholas of Cusa on Wisdom and Knowledge, Minneapolis: Banning.

–––, 1998a. “Nicholas of Cusa (1401–64),” Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy (Volume VI), London: Routledge, pp. 832–838.

–––, 1998b. Nicholas of Cusa: Metaphysical Speculations (Volume 1), Minneapolis: Banning.

–––, 1999, Nicholas of Cusa on God as Not-Other, 3rd edition, Minneapolis: Banning.

–––, 2000. Nicholas of Cusa: Metaphysical Speculations (Volume 2), Minneapolis: Banning.

–––, 2002. “Nicholas of Cusa (1401–1464): First Modern Philosopher?” in Renaissance and Early Modern Philosophy (Midwest Studies in Philosophy, Volume 26), P.A. French and H.K. Wettstein (eds.), Boston: Blackwell,pp. 13–29.

––– (trans.), 2003. Nicholas of Cusa’s Early Sermons: 1430–1441, Loveland, Colorado: Banning.

––– (trans.), 2008. Nicholas of Cusa’s Didactic Sermons: A Selection, Loveland, Colorado: Banning.

–––. 2010. “Marta y María como símbolos de la unidad und alteridad: commentarios sobre el Sermón LXXI de Nicolás de Cusa”, pp.137–149 in J.M Machetta and Claudia D’Amico (eds.), Nicolás de Cusa:identidad y alteridad. Pensamiento y diá logo, Buenos Aires: Editorial Biblos.

https://cla.umn.edu/philosophy/news-events/other/dept-philosophy-remembers-jasper-hopkins

^^^^^ One of the very best instructors in any course I ever took.

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Too bad it wasn't your story.

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Can you expand on that? Were you there?

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I signed up in Indiana. Spent 18 months in Okinawa. Afterward I went to school in N. Calif which is where I was when Kent State and the bombing in Cambodia prompted the demonstrations and marches in Spring 1970.

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Yes, non sequiturs do serve as a kind of teachable moment - the Ed Dunkel character in Kerouac's On The Road engages in that a fair amount.

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aaaannnnddd... how does this qualify you to declare that Reich's story isn't his?

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Was this question directed to me? Perhaps you meant it for someone else?

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That's a helluva story Bob. Thanks for sharing. I experienced one sensitivity festival (also in 1969) on the grassy quad of my college. I hope they come back. The facilitator didn't ask me to wrestle him but he read the 20th chapter of The Little Prince by St. Exupery: one of the reasons I became a teacher. These are scary times, Bob. Your posts help. I was a history major. Try to find a historian who is not scared right now. We have a true madman who has captured the imagination of those who obviously did not learn the lessons the Third Reich provided. Best wishes and thanks.

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The historian Timothy Snyder at Yale isn’t cowed by the Reptilians. On YouTube, there’s a video of him educating M.T. Greene on the true facts of Russian aggression. Currently I’m reading his book “Black Earth: The Holocaust as History and Warning.” It’s a close analysis of anti-Semitism of the Nazis and the de facto although unintended anti-semitism (actually anti-capitalism) of the Soviets during WW2.

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I was 13 in 1969 but I remember hearing about those "consciousness-raising" groups. My mom was a bit of a "womens-libber" as some of her friends called her. She went to a few of those groups from time to time. She was not your "typical " mom in my Texas neighborhood outside of Dallas. She was the only one who worked, for one thing. She was a bookeeper trained in secretarial school and eventually worked her way into the accounting office of a large insurance company with no college degree. Fast forward to the '70s, she was continually passed over for promotions, training newly minted virtually all male accountants going directly into management positions straight out of college. She'd say, "Those boys don't know their ass from a hole in the ground!" Those groups I think gave her the courage to speak up and eventually file a grievance with the EEOC for age and sex discrimination ( she found out later there were several women in different departments who had also filed ). I benefited from her teaching me how to fill out job applications, how to present yourself at job interviews, what to say and what not to say. Most girls back then never got that.

I'm really hoping we see a resurgence of the type of wonderful activism of those days and courage to push back against this tsunami of conservative fascism that has spread so alarmingly fast.

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My mom was the only one among my friends’ moms who worked. She worked for an airline so we got free passes to travel which was wonderful. My parents were both feminists before that term was invented. I will always be grateful to them even though I thought they were “normal “ when growing up. Now I realize they were exceptional.

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A lot of those groups were controversial. Accusations that participants were being manipulated. I knew folks who were in the business. E.G. Big Sur variation # 1. https://www.esalen.org/

If you know anything about behavioral analysis, pinning Robert was probably an object lesson on dominance, control. The master seeks the easiest mark to use as demonstrator. Sometimes they use cattle prods. In the military, training on group dynamics. I went to a "leadership school" where we learned techniques how to generate espirit de corps, etc. using scapegoating. Used ""pudgel,s" judo, Karate, other techniques to humiliate and emasculate the totem, to terrorize the rest of the unit into obedience and camaraderie Taught to identify a scapegoat.

Some of the groups used drugs. I'm so old that LSD was legal.

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He picked you because he was bald and you had all those gorgeous curls!

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I didn't notice. It must take a female to pick up on that. :-) Thanks for the laugh.

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Robert was a cutie!

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In the 60s there was a whole lot of bullshit trying to pass for wisdom. There still is, and I greatly appreciate the fact that you call it out.

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I loved hearing this story and will share something similar that happened in my own. I was 15 years old and was a counselor at an overnight camp on Skaneateles Lake. It paid little but to be on the beautiful Finger Lake for the Summer was fantastic and being 15 with no parents around was the best a young man could hope for. Meeting the other counselors I found good friendship with 2 others. Marty Kelly and Charly Salinger. We learned and smoked cigarettes together, had my first taste of beer and since the camp was co-ed, had my first physical relationship with a young lady (nameless she will remain as nice guys never tell) A lot happened that summer but nothing like the fall.

In that fall I got a call from Frank Sherk who managed the camp. Frank was about 23 or 24. Bearded and handsome and the coral blue eyes that would catch you and just own you from the first look. We all loved the guy and when he asked me to come to the camp and work a weekend outing they had for some inner city young kids I was delighted. Marty and Charly were going to be there too and it would be the first time we would be together since the summer. We all went to different schools at home and it would be good to reconnect. We had a blast reliving our summer escapades. One evening we had wandered off together the 3 of us and had a smoke and a laugh away from the others. When I returned to camp, I went into the kitchen area and Frank was in there doing dishes. He was pissed and I had never seen him that way before. He asked where I had been and when I told him taking a break he whirled and asked who I was with. I told him Marty and Charly and he said viciously "I knew it, why don't you ever stand on your own 2 feet by yourself? In the summer when I wanted to find Salinger or Kelly all I'd do is look for you. You're such a sheep, such a follower!" Why did this bother me so? Why is it still with me today? Why did I even care what Frank thought?

15 is a very tender age and a lot of what you are at that time is about your friends. Of course those guys were important to me. Funny thing is I never saw any of them ever again, why does Franks words still take up space in my head more than 55 years later?

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This makes me remember a famous Maya Angelou quote: I’ve learned that people will forget what you said, people will forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel.

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Awesome quote Chet!

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Good story, Thomas! It may be that you remember his words because he was someone you looked up to and admired. Getting a stinging rebuke like that from someone you respect would definitely stay with you. As a teacher, I was always mindful of the weight my words carried. When you are the person in charge it is important to choose your words carefully because they will have a lasting effect on someone.

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Yes, I find that as I age, I must choose my words more carefully because, whether I deserve it or not, younger adults tend to pay attention to what I say. I’m 74. I know, I know: when I’m 84, I’ll be Old and In The Way.

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Stan, 84 is not old and you would never be in the way!! Young people need older voices to help them navigate the lies and misinformation and propaganda that is constantly being spewed out now.

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Sounds like Frank had issues.

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At 15 we don’t have the brain development or experience to quite grasp that people we trust and look up to maybe don’t deserve it. I am sorry that you had this hurtful experience and it may have cost you keeping in touch with 2 friends, maybe not, but learning to be a little wary and wait to give your trust to those that deserve it is a good lesson to learn. Hopefully you can let go of his words as the lies that they were and will have learned to never be so cruel. Now is the time to not reinjure yourself wondering if his words had any truth or if he was just cruel to be cruel, but to live your best self.

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This is so very kind of you to say Linda and for that I thank you!

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His verbal attack was made when you were young and impressionable. Those kinds of interactions tend to outlive their “usefulness.”

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Wow, Robert! That is such a cool story. I don't think it would be possible to make up a story better than this! Thanks for sharing.

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He left out the LSD part.

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Sounds like a narcissistic jerk in a rage whom you embarrassed and so he sought revenge. Your first instinct was right. Glad others saved you. Hope he didn’t hurt anyone else. The only lesson here is when someone challenges you and you know it’s not a fair fight, don’t let your pride lead. Use peace to navigate the situation. He still tried to claim credit in the end. You knew you were a leader all along and so did the group. Thanks for sharing.

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The technique is a very old one in Zen where the teacher shocks one into becoming.

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What if the person who should have swam sunk ?

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That person would have conveyed a very different attitude toward a challenge.

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Thank you so much for sharing this important part of your life. I assume we are in the general same generation. I am 81 years old now and I’ve done all the personal growth things that you could possibly think of. I too was at Essalen Working with people like Fritz pearls, Will Dhutz and others, enjoying the good food Hot and a few of the beautiful Pacific Ocean. It was a time of sex, rock ‘n’ roll and drugs thank God I came through unharmed and I believe in a somewhat higher consciousness. The 60s was a major cultural revolution in reaction to the materialism and shallowness of the 1950snow and those times are fading memory. I am glad that I was there and doing it all. By the way I really enjoy your podcast and you’re writing you were right on point. May God bless you for your work?

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founding

Thanks for this. I was a young child of divorced and the open marriage parents of the time. All of whom went through some type of psychological or personal growth therapy. They all then used the techniques used upon them upon me to control my childhood emotional growth and intellectual curiosity. Not OK. But I am glad, that as an adult, one who could not only fight back but felt empowered to do so, that you found it enlightening. Game playing trickster psychological techniques should come with an Adults Only warning ! 🐈‍⬛

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I had a friend whose mom did the “I’m OK, You’re OK” course and she used the techniques to bully him to the point that his bumper sticker declared I’M OK, YOU'RE NOT.

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Well as we can see, Professor Reich seems to have survived and thrived, but it wasn't a guaranteed outcome.

Cf. This harrowing, inspiring account of cult programming and a successful escape:

Leaving the Westboro Baptist Church | Megan Phelps-Roper | Oxford Union

www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGeQFLMrpBQ

About

The Oxford Union is the world's most prestigious debating society with a tradition of hosting internationally prominent individuals across politics, academia, and popular culture. Founded in 1823 at a time when The University of Oxford restricted students from discussing certain topics, The Union continues to uphold the principle of free speech through the exchange and debate of a wide range of ideas and opinions, presented by a diverse range of speakers - some inspiring, others controversial. As we celebrate 200 years of free speech during our Bicentenary year of 2023, we reaffirm our commitment to our integral values and also our belief that the discussion of complex topics should not only be encouraged but is an essential element of any free society.

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James Baldwin and Wm. F. Buckley, Jr. had an interesting debate there. See it on YouTube.

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What a great story. You are a giant to all of us Professor. Thank you for all you’ve done and do. ❤️

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Thank you for sharing your life/personal/traumatic experience in a way that's clear, engaging, and impactful. Love the beginning of the story with setting the context - the backdrop, time period, mood and atmosphere, and the way it leads us to the main point of your writing.

You're such an inspiration.

The way you've been able to take on the challenge, with such a positive attitude, and deal with tough/unexpected situation is truly impressive.

It definitely capture our attention, helps to build rapport/trust/empathy with your audience here, and makes others more receptive to your message... Now, where are the students activists to listen?!

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O … M … G

I’ve attended and quite often run a lifetime of workshops - this takes every biscuit in the box! You are a total inspiration ☀️🌷

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I thought the punchline would be, "And his name was Allen Ginsberg".

I have a similar story but it involved the Church of Scientology. They took my wallet and I left the room.

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The figure of Allen Ginsberg also flitted through my mind. But he wasn’t so fat in 1969, was he?

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I think of him from the "Subterranean Homesick Blues" video and I just checked it on google. He was well on the way to baldness at the time and starting out on his journey into becoming fat. That video might have been made five years earlier.

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founding

Thanks for sharing that story. Amazing how life just happens when we least expect it and the experience stays with us forever.

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Wow! You all have a lot to say! As an "elder" now in the community, after 85 years of life and strife, I hope you EACH become the "change YOU want to see"! (Gandhi's wish)

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