Secretary Reich: I am very disappointed in you. You couldn't believe the paranoid storm you unleashed with your fantasy about Trump being able to steal the 2024 election.
Trump didn't get away with it when he had presidential power in 2020, when he lost 60 lawsuits. What makes you think that any ham-handed attempts at coercion will not be thoroughly exposed In 2024, with a result that we he will end up with a total of 100 plus criminal indictments?
And that includes indictments in every state where he tries this!
Jack Smith would just love to sink his teeth into this!
Think how close it was last time. If Pence had created doubt and not certified, if Jeffry Clark was AG, if Michael Johnson was Speaker and/or if Ravensberger for 11,000+ votes. Go back and look at how the 2000 election was stolen, read Scalise nonsensical opinion, ponder that it was 5/4 at Scotus and think about how different a Gore presidency would have been from Bush.
Yes, I always believed that if Gore was allowed to gain the presidency he had won we would not have invaded Iraq and the world would have turned out very differently. Gore also would have put us on a better path to mitigate global warming.
Agree 100%. You can go back further - what if Regan had not pulled that stunt with Iran, and Carter had a second term? What if Kerry had prevailed in that razor close election? And the big one - what if Hillary had prevailed over Trump? All these outcomes were well within reach. And all would have had a profound positive effect on the future. Republicans, IMO, have for a very long time stunted the advancement of the USA as the shining light it could have been.
Then you need to read "The Rise ans Fall of the Third Reich". Hitler failed the first time but learned from his mistakes, then succeeded. We would do well to believe what Trump says and acknowledge the preparations already underway.
What we are experiencing here is a haunting replay of what Shirer witnessed and set down in Berlin Diary. Trump's adversaries consistently underestimate him. Trump may well be an inept criminal, but he is cunning and vicious and is motivated by resentment and hatred and seems to know how to game the system better than those who set it up.
As a result of my studies of this terrible crime on humanity and conversations with survivors of the Shoah, I completely agree, Mr. Parrish. While Ms. Weber sounds a note of hope, she is also courting complacency. The daily assault of information whether news or opinion is enough to screw with everyone's head, forcing many of us to simply tune it all out. We must not be ostriches and bury our heads in the sand until it is too late. Call me an alarmist, but I've recently renewed my passport. Many of my husbands family were lost to the camps; this pre-election year is no time to deny the tragic possibilities. that my lie ahead. VOTE BLUE AS IF YOUR LIFE DEPENDS ON IT, BECAUSE IT DOES.
Do not think he must be the one to shape the scheme, because he wouldn’t even have been inaugurated the last time, were it not for the likes of Bannon and Manafort and Kellyanne. They are NOW trying to skew the vote. They are NOW trying to devalue the functionality of “democracy.”They are NOW denying the strength of our eoconomy. They are NOW leaning on prices to keep things dear to the day laborer. They are NOW scaring us with the idea of an immigrant horde. They are NOW passing laws in Red states to limit early voting or mail-in in voting or even helping others to vote!1 They are NOW figuring ways for the minority party {the R’s} to grab enough Electoral Votes to win.
You should be very worried. It happened before. It can happen again. If we are not careful … and don’t reach enough voters, even in Red {or ‘Purple’] states.
He is and has been a very inept criminal for decades and due to being a rich white man, he has NEVER to this very day, suffered one single legal consequence to any of his multitudinous crimes. What makes you think another Trump government where he has vowed to rid the government of all of his opposition will somehow end with him being punished??
And he still has the money that all crackpots right wings around the world will placate him with. Putin, Netanyahu, Victor Orban, Putin, Xi Jinping would all be better off if Trump was president... and they know it, and they've been encouraging the traitors in Congress...
If Trump is such an inept criminal, how has he managed to skirt the law so adeptly his whole life? Doesn't sound at all inept to me.
Trump is a man with few skills & no virtue. However, those few skills he does have, have allowed him to brilliantly con, hoodwink & grift from others & get away with all sorts of wrongdoing & treachery throughout his life.
Kathleen - You're correct that drumpf appears inept. But remember he's only the public face of the oligarchy which pulls his strings. What Reich describe as a possibility is already happening in red states where the secretary of state positions are going to election deniers. Don't be misled by the cartoonish figure that drumpf portrays. He is essentially "winning" the lawsuits with his slowdown strategy and with his crony judge loose cannon in florida. And even though his machinations are repeatedly exposed, it only emboldens his potentially violent base. he's done almost everything in the open and yet he still walks free.
Trump can't win the 2024 election by winning red states. The question is can he successfully cheat in swing states, which I don't think can do without being really obvious about it. And I don't think he's a puppet. There's not one instance in his first term where he was not making the decisions. People do bring outlandish ideas to him, but he's the one who decides to act on them.
Yes, you are preaching to the choir. "We" all "see" and understand that Trump is an idiot, a bare-faced liar, unfit, cognitively impaired, degenerating faster by the day. For reasons we cannot comprehend, Trump's weirdness, inability to do anything effective--does not stop most people from at least SAYING they will vote for the Republican, whoever it is, and if Trump is mentioned, those voters nod that Trump has the Republican ticket and their confidence to be the next president.
"The reasons you cannot comprehend" are that so many of the yellow-coifed toad's followers are evangelical Christians who truly believe that Trump is Saul on the road to Damascus reincarnated, and that he was sent by God to save all of them! These people are too . . . I don't know . . . lazy, willfully undereducated, refusing to seek better lives for themselves, and so they are ripe to be cult followers, and Trump has had this figured out to his advantage for a long, long time now!
But his crimes are so obvious. Biden and his Justice Department will have two months to dig up the goods. They won't go slow, they will have this in the courts inside a month, long before the Electoral College meets.
There are a few things that Trump is especially expert at. Unfortunately they are all sinister, criminal, immoral, devious & dangerous.
The one "saving grace" is that the depravity that Trump is infamous for, & the dementia that many have predicted & remarked about, are now manifesting themselves in a way & to a degree that's getting hard to ignore, & can only be expected to get worse as this year progresses.
I think you seem to be engaging in some wishful thinking. That's also how we felt before Roe was overturned.
In 2020, he failed because the didn't have so many insurrectionists in Congress. The first time, Hitler didn't have a whole team with him. Now, Trump does.
Those who will vote for Trump do so because they don't care he is a criminal..
He is their avatar, they look in the mirror and they see Trump, they look at Trump and see themselves. He is the fulfillment in the flesh of all they hope for.
Don't underestimate the depths even SCOTUS will go to install Trump. It's the economy, stupid ( not to plagiarize but the economy has always been "their money". You suckers and losers can pay for all this.
If that is the case, why didn't they take the opportunity to keep trump in power in 2020? They dismissed his appeals to Scotus by 7-2 if I remember correctly.
Reich didn't "unleash" anything. This is just reality setting in and the lessons of history. Again, work for the best, plan for the worst. I do agree that the vast majority of Americans aren't in favor of either
Trump nor violence, yet look at the havoc a few thousand did on Jan 6. 30 million is a lot more than 3000.
I direct you to the Democracy Project analysis of Trump and conservative think-tank plans to steal the next election. Don't think it can't happen here. IMO these are ruthless people who have little regard for democracy and democratic systems.
Sorry. But it would be foolhardy to discard the possibility that trumps last coup attempt was just a practice round, analogous to Hitler’s first coup attempt. Trump has all the Republicans currently in government already lined up behind him. In the last 24 hours he clearly verbalized his plans for retribution against Vicky Haley.
It’s going to be a bumpy ride. And what he plans to do on and after day one as dictator has been very openly and clearly laid out by Project 25.
For months now I've been planning to go to the nearest swing state and drive 50 voters to the polls. That's my plan. BTW, I also went to a swing state to help during the 2020 election.
Despite all the drama, Trump is not going to "steal" anything. As foolish as we Americans may seem at times, we will not allow that to happen. This is not the same circumstances that existed in 2000 - and, fair or not in the grand scheme of things, ended peacefully and quietly - no mass chaos in the streets.
It takes 270 Electoral votes to win the election. There are 226 Blue state electoral votes, that are either safe or leaning safe, 235 Red state votes which are safe for Trump. All red state votes are dafe.
There are only about 5 swing states, and all are in the rust belt, created by Bill Clinton when he signed NAFTA and GAAT.
Six swing states if you go by the 2020 results, but Georgia has been cancelled because a Republican Govenor and Legislature have passed voter supression laws.
They are WI, MI, PA, AZ, NV. Arizona is registered Republican, has a Republican legislature but a Democratic Govenor. Pennsylvania, aka Pennsyltucky, is Pittsburgh in the west, Phillie in the East, and Phillie is majority black, however young black males have a grievance with the Democratic party, because they have not had their wish list fulfilled, they might sit out the election, if they do then PA will go red.
These angry voters will indeed give Democracy and the Biden the finger but that finger will be shoved up inside their own rectum, by the man that their stupidity put in office.
Trump doesn't have to steal it, he already has. He starts off with 235 electoral votes, he only needs 35 more, and the Republicans are hard at work on voter suppression via Robo calls, ads, intimidation.AI and Spoofing. and where that doesn't work, they show up at polling booths armed to the teeth to intimidate.
Meanwhile the Congress will be Republican controlled, 27 red states guarantee it
As for electoral votes WI has 10, Mich 15, PA, 19, NV NM 5. AZ 11, Florida and Ohio were once purple, but no longer, DeSantis has made Florida dark Red, and Ohio is also Dark Red.
Here is the current polls, Trumjp is ahead in 5 swing states
I'd say Kathleen is refraining from hollering before she's hurt, as my dad would say. Don't assume doom until it's actually impending. Before then, keep on an even keel and work for a good outcome.
Oh, I am so sad you are dissapointed. But Secretary Reich does lnow what he is talking about. America is in serious peril. We ALL need to sound the alarm!
First of all, I will make my vote count. Then I will tell daily, as many people as possible, as I have done while waiting for him to be behind bars, how important each and every vote will be, so the results do not go to the electoral College.
In Professor Reich's defense, the "paranoid stream" is ALL-ENCOMPASSING at this point! Bunkerboy, terrifying and infuriating as it is, HAS a shot at killing America in 2024. Remember: a man in prison CAN play president from behind bars!
Of course, you've got a great knack for finding the monsters under the bed, so you will regard this as just more naivety on my part.
I've given it some more thought and I actually do not think it will get to the point of needing to stop Trump “in the streets” so to speak.
Step one: Get out the vote so that there are very few close states. My own personal plan is to go to a swing state and drive 50 people to the polls for early voting and on election day.
Step two: We need a massive poll watching effort. State Democratic parties need to contact every election worker and say that we have attorneys who will take their affidavit regarding any pressure they receive from Trump supporters.
Step three: Be ready be ready to litigate the election. In 2020, the Trump side filed 60+ lawsuits disputing the election, virtually all of which were dismissed for lack of evidence. Because we will have a great poll watching effort and affidavit collection effort we will be able to file lawsuits in 2024 with abundant evidence of any trump shenanigans. Because the courts were so solidly in our favor in 2020, I see no reason to believe they would not be similarly fair in 2024.
Conclusion: if this three-step game plan is followed, I don't see any way that trump can steal the 2024 election.
It's trite because it's out of context. One side is the oppressed, the other is the oppressor. This is history. Even the State Department website names Israel as an occupier.
A govt from another country comes to your door and tells you your house, neighborhood, city, and state are being given to another group of people to form a new state. You no longer can live where you live. You no longer own your home or land. The other country is giving your land to someone else.
You are arbitrarily expelled from your home and expected to find a home somewhere else.
Oh and the newly imported people are now citizens of the new state. You? You have no state.
UN planned to create 2 states in Palestine: Israel for Jewish state, and rest of Palestine for Palestinians. The day before Israel was to be birthed officially, Palestinians attacked the Jewish settlers.
And ALL the Arab countries expelled millions of their Jewish brothers and sisters immediately upon the creation of Israel. They had to leave every behind. Life isn't neat and tidy
Sadly, we tend to measure or forget the comparisons of the two wrongs. One involves retaliation in the form of beheading of children, rape & killing of women, slaughter of families, and hostage taking for leverage. The other seems to involve . . . simple defense (much like the U.S. would do) but includes collateral damage due to the tactics of the other side (entrenching with the local populace, that while innocent, endorse the slaughter (Oct7) while suffering from the retaliation of defense of the other other group. The two wrongs, are never that equitable in extremity or modern justice.
Collective punishment has been a tool of the right-wing Israeli government for years. 1400 killed by Hamas, unforgivable, 25,000 Palestinians killed in response, more than half women and children, war crime and also unforgivable. Both are crimes against humanity and are caused by two different dogmatic religions. Zionists believe their God gave them the land in question. Hamas believes that their God requires them to make the world follow Islam and allows them to kill anyone in their way. Neither God, or any of the hundreds of Gods that people have fallen for, have any evidence to support their actual existence.
Lee, it is what should have been done BEFORE they attacked.
Netanyahu never considered the Arab world as equal and worthy of negotiating with.
You must buy and insurance policy *before* you have the accident.
After the Balfour declaration, there should have been 2 states created: One for the Jews, one for the Arabs, but only one was created. The Palestinians were on their own. We never were honest brokers in this conflict.
Arming Israel while they slaughter innocent civilians is irresponsible. I fear that Biden is losing his Presidency in doing this: It is "worse than a fault: an ERROR".
We have been supporting the State of Israel against Arabs to the tune of $3.2 Billions/ a year, every year.. Bibi just gave us the perfect reason to stop this hemorrhaging of cash from our taxes.
Threaten to leave him holding the bag by refusing to send any help his way until he accepts the 2 States solution.
Lots of thing wrong with your comment Cecile. First the should haves', we all have our should haves, they do no good in solving the current dilemma. I use dilemma on purpose because it is not a problem, problems have solutions, there is none to the situation, at least none that is palatable
Frankly considering the religious thousand year hatred of Jews by Muslims I don't see a two state solution. Not to mention the fact that Islam is triumphalist and absolutist as is Christianity, Judaism is not.
Further the soil on which the state of Israel sits is considered sacred soil by Muslims, especially since it is where their sacred Al Aqsa masjid and Dome of the Rock are located., in the same vein that Muslims consider Saudi Arabia to be sacred Islamic soil.
A Palestinian state, residing next to and sharing borders with an Israeli state will be in perpetual conflict,
Jews and Arabs claim to be semites, the name is derived from the mythical Noah's (Utnapishtim to the Sumerians) son Shem, the great great great great grandfather of Abraham who had two sons, supposedly, Isaac and Ismael. Isaac is the supposed father of the Jews and Ishmael of the Arabs.
There is no record of animosity towards Ishmael of his descendants in the TeNACCH (Old Testament) but there is in the Quran and the Hadiths. Muhammad had 600 Jews of the Banu Quareysh beheaded six at a time, in the market place of Medina, and the hadith of al Bukhari talks of the obliteration of the jews, sahaih (verse) 1295 and 1295, Book 56, hadith 139, al Bukhari. (also the Hamas Covenant paragraph 7 , article 7).
As regards our subsidization of Israel, look at it like this. Israel is an unsinkable air craft carrier within striking distance of every capitol and facility, that could be a threat to the world's ability to even defend itself, much less feed itself and provide the goods and services that you depend on for life and comfort.
Google the 1973-74 oil embargo, Saudi Arabia's response to our support of Israel during the 1973 war. I don't know how old you are or were then, or even if you were alive, but the oil embargo affected ever aspect of our lives in the USA, from our ability to get to work to our ability to feed our families.
The 2 state solution is not a solution, just a source of perpetual war. To start with the Palestinian State has no endemic industry, only olive and orange groves, and then there is he fight over water. something no one has addressed., the Jordan river is just a dirty stream these days. and it runs out before it reaches the Red Sea. Jordan doesn't want Palestinians, neither does Saudi Arabia or Egypt, yet they are making pretense of supporting them.
In the ignorant western mind everything is just so simple.
WHY do view this as some sports contest where "the score" matters more than the win?
Do you believe Israeli soldiers are purposely shooting at known innocent civlians, women and children, raping them, beheading. . ? Imagine if you will (a twilight zone moment) a poltical group of hundreds of terrorist, invading the U.S. and raping and slaughtering Americans, including women and children, desecrating their corpses. WHAT do you think the American response would be? And using our similar military where the invaders are hiding amongs the civilians in a dense city, the similar collateral damage. Bombs and rockets. . are not "surgical."
And you're confusing or conveniently mistaking this is both about religion. There is no Jewish/Zionist agenda about throwing out, killing Muslim/non-Jews, to occupy a homeland. That's just a convenient attempt to legitmize a known, document 15th century religion that says clearly "infidels must die" and expecially the Jews (hey, because their our neighbors, and. . ) or includes the complete anilation of Israel as a state.
You're correct that any god would endorse anyof this. .even Allah per Koran? . . but we critical thinkers. . KNOW. . this is nothing about religion or what God wants.
Yes, Israel is in fact killing indiscriminately. This is evident by the ~250 daily they kill, ~50 of which are women and ~120 are children (women and children are about 70% of the population and also make up about 70% of the deaths). Israel killed many of their own on October 7th via the Hannibal Directive. They killed 3 of their own hostages who were carrying white flags. I watched a woman holding hands with a child who was carrying a white flag (read: obviously a civilian and a woman with a child) get killed by a sniper.
We "get it" Sara. . you dislike Israel, it's gov't, it's military. But don't misrepresent the facts or truth to push your agenda. I don't believe you honestly "believe" the Israeli soldiers are moving through Gaza "INTENTIONALLY" killing obvious innocent Palestinians (women and children). And your familiar comment that "IDF killed several Israeli citizens by accident/collateral damage. . is evidence, you're anti-Israel.
Yes, there are many "innocent" Palestinians being killed by Israeli military as they try to root out and kill Hamas fighters who are hiding in building and tunnels amongst the civilians. This is what war does expecially using weapons of mass destruction, e.g. missles, rockets, bombs, explosives. . . (go check out WWII, or any modern war). And over 210 Israeli soldiers have been killed in this "war" some with sophisticated rockets that can penetrate armed vehicles. . and if you want to try and trump this argument by quotiing "numbers killed". . it's really irrelavent the difference in numbers but the total human beings killed,. . right?!
And stop seeking out what you feel is evidence supporting your belief/agenda. Open your mind to what "truthfully" has happened and not getting biased news from the Palestininan authorities, . .or even the Israeli news.
This is a very unfortunate event. But sadly it divides us almost as much as our current politics do, even those of us progressives that care. . too? much. But we have to be honest about the facts more than our feelings. Any way you view this, this is two cultures in conflict. . one that's modern democracy, not affected by religion, and trying to live in peace. . and another living in the past, driven by religion and ideology, that wants to destroy a fellow country AND it's people, and has no qualms invading and slaughtering women and children. . deliberately. Those facts should better serve to influence your belief, than a biased perspect of what seems the powerful over the oppressed.
When the demographics of the deaths match the demographics of the populous as a whole, the killing is indiscriminate. About 70% of the population are women and children and about 70% of the death toll are women and children.
I do not get my news from any one source and take the mainstream media with a grain of salt. I analyze each article using TheFactual.com and cross-reference multiple articles. Most of what I'm seeing are live events captured in people's stories. The real, every day experiences of people in Gaza: Israeli troops open fire on people seeking food from aid trucks; Israeli civilians and military alike brazenly echo online that "Palestinians" must die, including children, when given a platform on livestreams; people holding white flags trying to regroup with family are shot and killed; people trying to recover the bodies of their friends/loved one who were shot and killed are shot and killed. Israel is very clearly not solely targeting Hamas.
Not “sniveling” about the outright massacres of war?
Egad. You think “c’est la guerre” is some kind of all-inclusive excuse?
Lots of us detest things that happened in WWII, and so many other “theaters” of war before and since.
I will say,there is a distinction, though, between COUNTRIES at war with each other, and the situation existing in Gaza and between Gaza and Israel.
You are choosing to see this conflict as one between equals, and it’s not.
And you are hearing this from me, a person who is SO supporting of Israel’s existence on this planet. But I want Israel to be what it promises to be and what its people want it to be — a democratic country lead by honorable people. Bibi is not honorable, nor are too many in his administration right now.
Many countries and diplomats are trying to help these warring FACTIONS to reach a solution. Bibi wants only to rid himself of those Palestinian pests on his land. {My characterization of his attitude.}
AND Hamas wants the same vis-a-vis Israel.
Neither of them is capable of decreeing what MUST be a solution to this horror.
You almost rose to the occasion of being rational.
Your last line is just more nasty … racist, absolutist, and nasty. Smacks of “collective” responsibility and punishment due.
Israel is NOT fighting for its “survival” in Gaza. Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank and East Jerusalem are completely incapable of destroying Israel. They do not have the organization nor resources to be an existential threat to Israel.
Left alone, they can be a serious threat to individuals in Israel and a serious thorn in the side of the Israeli government, but they cannot threaten Israel’s survival.
Actually, Hamas probably staged the attack because Israel was coming close to making alliances with other Arab countries in the region and THAT threatened Hamas’s survival.
The Palestinian people in Gaza have not had a functional chance to vote Hamas out in a longtime.
If one insists on equating “Hamas” with its state sponsor Iran, that still does not mean that Hamas can destroy Israel; it means Iran can hound and harass Israel through Hamas.
If Hamas is “destroyed,” that will not make Israel more secure vis-a-vis Iran. The radicalization of anti-Israeli factions will be ongoing, and this horror in Gaza only feeds it.
You apparently have nothing to contribute to a serious conversation about the realities on he ground in Israel. You spout the party line, but it’s nonsense.
I have read that Israel is recruiting Americans to argue on their behalf on social media. I'm curious if you are such a person. I don't mean to be accusatory because I think it makes sense to have a voice on social media arguing for one's position. But if you are such a person, it would be better not to be so unsympathetic to the plight of ordinary people of Palestine who are not part of Hamas. I know some immigrants from Palestine who live in my home town in Ohio. They are decent people and productive workers. I have to believe that if they are given an equitable situation in their homeland, they wouldn't be so hateful toward Israel. Do you agree?
It is not a genocide and doesn't fit the definition of a genocide in whole or in part. Calling it a genocide is pure propaganda.
A Genocide requires an intent, and Israel has no intent to genocide the Arabs, and Palestinians are Arabs (neither Jordan,Saudi Arabia or Egypt want anything to do with the Palestinians, they forbid them entry and evict them when caught.
On the other hand HAMAs i its 1988 Covenant which it has not refuted, has dclared Genocidal intentions on the Jews, as does the Islamic holy books in particular the hadith of al Bukhari, sahiah 1295and 1296, book 56, hadith 139 The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem).
The preamble to the HAMAS Covenant
Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it" (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory).
That my dear, is genocidal intent, and Israel has no such intention. in fact Israel has 2 million Arab ciizens who have the vote, and in fact until the last election had representation in the knesset.
How many Jews, without or without the vote, can be found in Islamic nations? I will answer you. 0 in Saudi Arabia and the most anywhere else is 500, and they don't have the vote.
Secondly, an unreported number of Israelis killed on Oct 7 were at the hands of their own IDF, who were operating under a resurrected Hannibal Doctrine. It’s been reported in Israeli media but ignored by MSM
I’ve ceased to be surprised by people saying things that can’t possibly be verified by anyone other than those who were there during the attack by Hamas in Israel. Unless you, K. Miller, were actually there, all you’re doing is spreading unreliable information. This adage: “If you experienced it, it’s the truth” the rest is hearsay, rumor, or propaganda and it’s not helpful. And though many misguided Americans think President Biden is also the de facto leader of Israel or can stop what’s happening in Gaza with words, the reality is there is very little he can do to affect what’s happening in Gaza that would make a difference.
So you’re saying that the if Biden stopped giving arms to Israel, instead of more than quadrupling the free weapons with zero strings attached, it would have no effect, right?
And as it relates to those Israelis killed by the IDF on Oct 7, that is coming directly from Israeli media. We all witnessed the IDF shooting 3 shirtless Israeli hostages waiving white flags and yelling they were Israelis still being mowed down. The Hannibal Doctrine is a policy.
But if you want to talk about any number of tropes against Palestinians and the propaganda oft repeated by Israeli apologists, it’s a long list.
I can see how one can conclude that providing weapons is affecting the war and I do accept and appreciation that connection and that it may be having an affect. My problem is that I’m not privy to why Biden is doing so or even that there are “no strings attached.” What I’m saying is I don’t know nearly enough about the current or historical situation there to understand why Biden or Netanyahu is doing what each is doing. I’m inclined to think Biden had to take a side but that’s about it. I’ve read so much from both sides and so it’s a lot easier for me to be neutral than maybe it is for many.
With regard to what is provided by Israeli media, I think you may agree with me that it’s as reliable as the US media.
Although their lies are well documented, at times I believe what the Israeli government/IDF are telling us.
Israel relies on US funds to kill civilians:
A retired Israeli major general named Yitzhak Brick stated the following about the ongoing IDF assault on Gaza.
“All of our missiles, the ammunition, the precision-guided bombs, all the airplanes and bombs, it’s all from the U.S.,” Brick said. “The minute they turn off the tap, you can’t keep fighting. You have no capability. … Everyone understands that we can’t fight this war without the United States. Period.”
You’re one sick dude. And Bob didn’t even comment about your ignorant lying comment. Oh. And maybe the babies weren’t beheaded. They were cut out of their mother’s bellies and left to die in front of their parents who were then killed. What kind of culture does that? What kind of person says it didn’t happen.
You are posting something that has been already exposed as false.
The repeated attempt to claim barbarism by Hamas on Oct 7 is an attempt to negate the reality that literally thousands of Palestinian infants and children have been killed in the last several weeks and months. They have been crushed and sliced to bits by the flying shrapnel thrown by the 2000 lb bombs Israel has dropped among many other cruel and horrific acts of deadly terror by the IDF.
To deny that Hamas Oct 7 attack was a reaction to the increasing violence from Israeli settlers and Israel’s apartheid regime is a demonstration of the dehumanization Palestinians have been subjected to for decades.
Do you know how many millions of dollars they fund in political campaign donations to both Dems and Repugs and the full range of federal to state candidates?
Urban warfare is very different than battlefield warfare. Hamas is ensuring maximum civilian casualties in order to further its own objectives. 25,000 is a gigantic number, though no one knows if it is accurate and it's a tiny fraction of the total population. On the other hand, Israel could have killed many more civilians if it had that objective. The conditions in Gaza are horrendous for those people being used by Hamas as human shields. Hamas needs to be held accountable, not celebrated for its brutality. Shifting the blame to Israel is just furthering their agenda.
It's also not very complicated. There are now many videos of war crimes such as sniping patients in hospitals, murdering journalists, controlled demolishions of political buildings, schools, and residential blocks. This is literal genocide. Stop trying to muddy the waters. It's simple
Trying to fix it for you, Holy shit. You said "Hamas is enduring the maximum civilian casualties...". Bigtime mess up lol. THE RELIGIOUS FASCIST ISRAELI APARTHEID REGIME is ensuring maximum civilian casualties. Had to correct that glaring error. I'll give you benefit of the doubt that was just an accident. It's interesting when you learn that the three Co founders of Hamas - in two separate instances their villages were slaughtered by the IDF as kids. And that the netanyahu regime personally propped up, funded, and armed hamas as a strategy to globally delegitimize their cause. It seems it's all backfired upon them finally, and unfortunately most Americans are too propagandized, religiously and tribally, to recognize we have created this situation. It's our vassel state in the middle east afterall
The first victim of war is the truth. Israel is right but not good (with decision to obliterate, genocide). Can't blame them. Ignored their own intelligence, no one expected that.
Well spoken/written. I can never figure out how to convey this. Attacks and the violence they cause have to stand and be addressed as singular events. As far as I know, in a very specific sense, the oct 7 attacks and subsequent kidnappings were not a retaliation, but a deliberate and coordinated attack. Israel’s reaction has to be tempered with the knowledge that Hamas is purposely using densely populated areas to operate in and around. If there is blame to be attributed to any entity, the responsibility for civilian casualties is obviously on the shoulders of those who started the hostilities then chose to hide behind their own civilian population. I don’t think Israel has a moral responsibility to take the high road, as the “high road” tells Hamas they can act with impunity towards Israel’s civilian population.
lol. . seriously, Veronica. . just throw out some axiom and generalize the problem???
It is simple and it's complex. But some expecialy (us) liberals, try to view it through rose-colored glasses. . we try to judge it by power over the powerless.. . number of deaths differences. . .rich vs poor. . without one comparison. . modern thinking minds vs 5th century minds defined by an interpreted religion. I'm no expert on Judaism, but I doubt if there anything about infidels or non-believers and how they should be treated differently ( or killed). I'm not defending Israel, I'm just simplying the comparison and contrast, but "stepping back" from a predetermined agenda of . . "oh, the poor Palestinians" and noting the Hamas terrorists they support/vote for. Israel has it's radicals and extremists. . but they don't go slaughter/rape Palestininans. . therein seems to be a unique difference in the conflict?
I am opposed to Netanyahu, and wish Israel had another leader. Alas, the 10/7 attack planned and executed by Gaza's elected Hamas government included much brutal rape. I don't think this is mentioned sufficiently, especially as local gov'ts are pressured to condemn all the horrific collateral damage.
I briefly considered writing something about the brutal 10/7 rapes to yesterday's Mainstream Media topic which concluded by condemning Trump for being "judged to be a rapist"; but, I hesitated.
Hamas has the ability to free the hostages. Strategically, Hamas leadership would prefer to let Gazans die as martyrs. And, Putin is happy with this diverting attention and support from Ukraine.
No one, including me, would approve of this, but: "theoretically", instead of tens of thousands of Palestinians dying as Israel seeks to free hostages and eradicate Hamas leaders, Israel "could" flood all the Hamas tunnels in Gaza to drown both Hamas leaders and all the remaining hostages.
Israel would not deliberately kill the hostages held by Hamas. That is why Hamas still holds them . . . as a bargaining chip to win. Meanwhile, Israel looks more and more like a genocidal invader.
Israel actually shot and killed hostages walking towards them with white flags in their hands.
There is documented evidence of multiple war crimes by the IDF. The International Court of Justice heard an allegation of purported genocide against Palestinians recently, with plenty of photographic evidence and ample evidence of intent on the part of Israel.
Understand, Mitch, but I feel you're grabbing at minutia.
Replacing Netanyahu would not change anything regarding this conflict/history (any you know Israel will never put in power someone who wants to give Palestinians a separate state/more area).
Hamas like the other Islamic terrorist organizations "are" organized, and WERE voted in by Palestinans, AND Palestinians approve of the Oct 7 attack by 78%. So separating Hamas from Palestinians is non-starter. "yeah, there are "good" Palestininans. . just like "good Muslims.. . is is the culture, but more the religion."
How "one dies" shouldn't matter, as in the same caveat "how many die" doesn't always matter. It's not a "contest" of evil, or numbers. The fact that it's historic, on-going, and will continue. . is what matters. Resolution will have to come internally, within Palestinian leaders, within the religious leaders, within the local Arab/Muslim societies. I see "some" hope here. . but history shows this has been going on so long, it won't happen overnight (in our lifetime?) "Martyrdom" is just an example of the extremism and outrageous behavior.
The alleged "tens of thousands" (you know it's much less!. . "who" is reporting these numbers?!). . .some will say is ("legitmate?") "collateral damage." When Hamas literally puts their headquarters in the basement of a Palestinian hospital, and lives/operate with civilians, and keesp the hostages. . likewise. . are we shocked that many innocent???? Palestinians are dying? Modern militaries use weapons that are not surgical, if they do, they loose their own/risk. Relate all the Iraq/Afghanistan US military actions, and how many innocents died/collateral damage. Sadly! it's the way of our modern military/response. You know if this happened within the US by a foreign country. . lets say Mexico. . the US military would respond likewise, and if Mexico had Gaza type (most populated city in world) homes, same thing. So we can't focus so much on "numbers" or "innocents" (expecially when the innocents voted Hamas in and support them. . "it comes with the territory")
I'm not defending all of Israel's and Netanyahu's govt decisions, but rather. . CONTRASTING them! Perspective are everything. . both through history and geographically. Religion and modern progressive empathetic feelings seem to be ignored?
Jane, that is a simplistic way of looking at it. The Jews have been fighting since 1948, for survival as a nation, and for thousands of years for survival as a people.
While Islam, carrying a black banner and a sword has taken over almost half of the world.
And though they "own" 57 Countries, including half of a continent and all of the mid east, they aren't satisfied and begrudge a tiny nation of 8 million Jews and 2 million Arabs, a little slice of land that they neglected for thousands of years.
Einstein said the definition of insanity is doing the same thing again and again expecting different results.
Well the Arabs tried to genocide the Jews in 1948, they failed, they tried again in 1956, 1967, 1973, 2006 and Oct 7, 2023, failing each time. That is insanity.
The much beloved banner of the Idiot left, and I considered myself a progressive having voted for and contributed to Pramila Jayapal, and supported the Progressive Caucus, of Free Palestine from the River to the Sea is a call to Genocide... period.
Israel (and people like Robert Reich and me) are always guilty before proven innocent in the eyes of too many. Those numbers he posted come from disputed sources. Our policy is a two state solution. As soon as there are two parties negotiations can begin.
At the present time, Hamas and its allies are still holding hostages. They have been effective in dividing support. Too many have rushed to judgment.
Judges at The Hague-based International Court of Justice will rule on Friday whether or not they will grant emergency measures against Israel following accusations by South Africa that the Israeli military operation in Gaza is a state-led “genocide.” In the initial ruling, the ICJ will not deal with the main question of whether Israel is committing genocide. The court will just look at possible emergency measures, meant as a kind of restraining order while the court looks at the full case, which usually takes years.
I've said this many times. Over 1,000,000 Israeli Jews speak Arabic as their first language, Some speak Farsi. Their families were sent by Moslems in 1947-1948, ostensibly to die in an Arab march "from the river to the sea." . https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_the_Muslim_world
I believe this goes against the teachings of every major religion, maybe not in those words, but certainly in these sentiments. Can anyone name a religion that doesn't hold this truth?
Many people have woken up to Israel's 75 years of lies and censorship. But don't worry, the US has your back and powerful forces are working overtime to keep our tax billions flowing to the merciless occupiers/colonists. I don't buy Sabra hummus lol, but somehow I don't think that makes a whit of difference.
What lies and censorship. You have just outed yourself as a Jew hater. You haven't ever read Ha'aretz have you, it is an Israeli paper highly criticial of Israel's policies and actions. There is no censorship in Israel, especially self censorship.
I'm not a Jew hater in the least. I have read Ha'aretz and The Times of Israel and a lot of other publications, including many about the horrors of the Holocaust. I don't know how much censorship goes on in Israel, but I am seeing a great deal of it here in the U.S. and I'm also learning about the past. The initial lie was that Palestine (which Israel says never existed) was deserted. I never heard about the Nakba until recently. We mostly heard good things about the kibbutzim and, of course, much shock and grief about the Holocaust, which was still fairly recent history at that point.
Actually Palestine never existed, it was never a state. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine_(region), during the Ottoman Empire it was just a region ruled over by the Mamalukes (the slave army), it's occupants were a dhimmi Jews and Bedouins.
. Mark Twain visited Jerusalem and said of it, that it was a garbage dump. The Zionist cleaned it up and made the Desert bloom..
I do have a gripe that the likes of AIPAC and ADL have undue influence in our country, and politics, but so does the Christian church and Arab money.
Do you know who the major stakeholder is in Exxon?Saudi Arabia, and who owns the oil refineries in Cancer Alley?Saudi Arabia, and who funds prestigious universities?Saudi Arabia, that is why so many students are out on the streets yelling Free Palestine from the River to the Sea. They have been corrupted (influenced) by Arab student groups, Arab friends, and professors bought with Saudi money.
Official state or not, there was a thriving community there with olive groves, etc. 750,000 forced off their own land and out of their. Who would not be enraged?
I see large AIPAC donations to our politicians. And the censorship against criticism of Israel or support for the Palestinians is rampant. Nobody here likes Saudi Arabia. I stand with Vanessa Redgrave. I wonder if her support for them hurt her career at all. And Annie Lennox. Anyway, we won't change each other's mind, I'm pretty sure. The young people can see what's happening, but by the time the old Zionists in the US are gone, it will be too late. There's talk of sending the Palestinians to an artificial island!!?? Still working hard on reducing the population though.
Dang, he’s telling you to “go to hell” but you’re being accused as the hater. Crazy mixed up world we live in. Genocide, or even the question of potentially committing genocide seems about as hateful and morally repugnant as is possible.But go ahead and try to rationalize why it’s ok in this case.
I love and respect Reich's comments on the economy, but he should stay away from commenting on Israel. I'm sick of requests for people to condemn Hamas. Where are the requests for people to condemn Israel's treatment of Palestinians over the last 70+ years? Bottom line: when you compare the suffering of Israelis at the hands of Palestinians to the suffering of Palestinians at the hands of Israelis, it's not even close.
There is a vast difference between supporting Netanyahu and supporting the Israeli people. It's sad they both can't occur simultaneously. The people side of the equation is easy to find compassion for while Netanyahu is a different story. What adds fuel to the fire is Hamas has recently stated that 10/7 will be repeated over and over again. What does this mess suggest that we do? There is no obvious answer to a question that seems to enjoy the spilling of innocent blood. Stop and think, the innocents are suffering on both sides, I'll give you, one side more than the other. A two-state solution will never work because Hamas wants to kill all Israelis regardless of age and gender. Until Hamas is dealt with and removed from the picture completely Palestine and Israel will never live peacefully in the area where they currently exist.
Donald I completely agree with you, but add there is one other huge problem, The Israeli religious right (euphemistically "settlers" , and the very powerful Israeli religious right, which is formed around the Likkud.
They are a serious problem to peace, rabid Zionists. they are to Israel as is MAGA to to America, Nethanyahoo is to Israel as Trump is to America. Right wing religious fascisims be it Christian, Jew, Hindu or Muslimis the worlds problem right now.
Americans don't discuss it, neither do our media, but the party of PM Modi in India, the BJP is a right wing religious fascist party.
Putin's Russia, Orban'sHungary, and Poland just pulled back from the brink, by defeating the PiS (Law and Justice party, a rignt wing Catholic political party, very deefinitely fascist).
Lee--To me, the world's problems are caused by one common element, religion. For some unknown reason this subject has no common ground from which to address the issues. Faith has become a time bomb whose fuse has been lit since the beginning of time. More people have died through wars started over religious differences than any other reason. I see no answer other than outlawing God, LOL. We'll let congress deal with that one.
Have no use for religion either. But this conflict is about land and resources. In 2019, it was revealed that there are approximately 3 billion barrels of oil and 1.7 billion (unit?) of natural gas under Palestinian lands. Israel has already started extracting what does not belong to them. Always follow the money.
That I agree with Donald, but I will add greed and power, but they all have one common origin,
the need for domination, particularly patriarchal domination. What is motivating Putin, not religion, the dude has a Napoleonic complex, shorter than Napoleon, he skulks around with a nagging sense of inferiority, and has to prove his the BMOC, knocking out and knocking off his competition. He wants to rebuilt the old Tsarist/Soviet Empire to prove his BMOC, the dude is an imperialist of the first order, and a colonialist because he wants to replace the residents of Ukraine with Russians.
Countries personalities mirror those of those that lead them. China, North Korea have inferiority complexes, and are paranoid, they only way to secure their safety, so they imagine, is by domination, and controlling the countries that border them, the problem with that is,that no sooner do they integrated their neighbors, then they have new borders.
One may be 'macho" and still suffer from fear and a nagging sense of inferiority, the more macho one is, the more that fear.
Iran has one hell of a complex, almost every nation in the world has trod through it , warred against it, anguished it, The last attempt was by an Arab neighbor, a Sunni Muslim, Saddam, and it is only Muslim because a bunch of lizard eating Arabs whipped the Persian General at the battle of Kerbala., a fact which still irks them and has been memoralized by the Persian poet Ferdowsi in his Shahanemeh (Book of Kings)
As regards religion. As an atheist I don't consider believers to be perceptive, semi sentient, but not perceptive. Region's have not civilized mankind, unless you consider mental and emotional enslavement to be civilized.
On the other hand, it requires an ideology around which a tribal identity can be forged.
Who ever it was that created the first religion, knew that intuitively. Men on their own have no personal authority, like the kid says to the parent, or another kid, who made you ruler.
However if you can convince others that an almighty and unseen diety can dole out reward and punishment, then you have back up.. hence the evolution of religion, Attila and the Wtich doctor.
Of course one can't be the strong hand of authority that can kill and punish here and now and at the same time be the spokesman for this unseen entity that sees all., thus evolves the Witch doctor, who proclaims that you rule by divine right. And there is always suspicion and tension between Atilla and the shaman. One does not exist without the other, however neither trusts the other.
The founding of America presented a unique opportunity for a new world order.
Instead of a nation based or unified by religion, ethnicity or even race (despite the fact that the founders were rich propertied and often slave owning white men) they didn't perceive race as we do., ours is a unique legacy built up over time.
Only in America is nationhood, belonging based on an idea, and that idea is under attack and viciously and here we are distracted by affairs thousands of miles away.
Lee--An assessment worth publishing. I agree with you on all points, especially the religious aspects concerning the beginning of this country. Religion is supposedly a source of good and mutual appreciation; I just don't understand how it got so far off course. By the way I share in your religious views.
I wonder what would happen if Israel stopped occupying Gaza and the West Bank? It’s possible that everyone would be more secure and the back and forth conflict would stop. Continuing the occupation just creates more resistance.
Anubeion--Sound thinking but Netanyahu would never go for it. This guy has some serious issues, and they stand as obstacles to any road that points toward peace.
Anubeion--In essence what is happening over there is a triangle of hatred. You have the Palestinians, the Israelis, and then you have Hamas, the religious troublemakers, who only want death for the Israeli people. Through them all in a close proximity to one another and you get what we currently have, hell. Whose religion believes in that?
Secretary Reich has an influential platform here, and he has every right to offer his insights on any number of issues, not just the economy. I appreciate his informed views.
I don't see that Reich's post was anything other than condemnation of "both sides." Read it again. He's not pro anybody. Reich observes that Israel's overreach is condemned by the world. And, your point, that referring to "the last 70-years" is a smoke-screen, as if history excused stamping out everyone as Israel's Plan B. PS Reich happens to be Jewish, I figure he has people assuming his allegiance will be his allegiance, right-or-wrong. And he's saying, No excuse for Israel. And stop already. You guys are on the same page.
I can't necessarily blame people who are ignorant to the plight of the Palestinians. It is hard to find factual information in the western media. The following was from a recent substack post:
"Over 1,000 Gazan children have lost a limb, either one or two legs and or an arm since October 7th, making an horrific statistic – on average of 10 per day – as reported by Save the Children, and that number is growing daily.
But this assault on children’s limbs is not new. Israeli snipers have intentionally maimed Palestinians protesting in Gaza over the past years, creating a generation of disabled youth and overwhelming the territory’s already crippled medical system. The UN reported more than 8,000 Palestinians were shot by Israeli security forces during the Great March of Return protest (2018-2019) on Gaza’s northern border and the majority of these cases were children and young people. Again in the May 2021 protests some 685 children were deliberately wounded. By the end of 2021 there were more than 1,700 people in Gaza having undergone amputation, most of these teenagers or children.
According to a United Nations inquiry released in March 2019 over 80 percent of the 6,106 protesters wounded in the first nine months of 2018-2019 were shot in the lower limbs. During that conflict, where protesters were only throwing stones and burning tires, the IDF deployed more than 100 snipers, called up from military units, primarily from the special forces and gave them live ammunition with clear orders to shoot specifically to injure and maim. There are reports that these snipers took bets on how many legs or knees they could shoot in a day…..some moral army."
So Hamas is justified? Reich is saying that two wrongs can be true. It isn't "both-sides-ism", its just stating the historical facts. But if your implication is that the US should rethink its relationship with Israel, I agree. Yet it IS the only democracy amidst a sea of authoritarian barbarism.
I agree, except for not wanting Reich to comment. Even his treading lightly around the issue helps to shine a spotlight on the issue. Hopefully makes staunch pro-Israel supportes think more about Israel's current far-right, colonialist policies and the religious issues on both sides that lead to ongoing decades of conflict.
I'm sick of people making blanket statements about complex issues having a long history and often knowing little of that history. Reich is correct, both can be true. But he gets one thing wrong: the Palestinians started the conflict with a preemptive strike the day before Israel came into existence.
I'm not familiar with the strike you refer to but am always eager to be educated. However, if you want to go back to the late 40s, You're going to have to reckon with the senseless slaughter of Palestinian villagers by Israelis in Dir Yassin and elsewhere. You're right, it's an extremely complex issue. But if you had to sum it up in a single sentence, the last sentence of my previous post is irrefutable.
Your comment about Palestinians rejecting peace plans is specious because they have never been offered a peace plan that wasn't biased toward Israel by failing to offer the Palestinians what was rightfully theirs by international norms.
There was a very good one offered but Clinton. The fact of the matter is, as with Hamas, many/most of these people will never recognize any form of existence of the state of Israel. Why do you think Israelis are now intent on driving them completely from the territory to neighboring Arab states? Why do those same states reject any notion of relocating them? The whole Arab world is a cess pool.
There's your fallacy: "what rightfully theirs by international norms". What is that exactly? If you mean violation of the UN resolutions, I agree--the West Bank settlements, for example. Yet Israeli gains there were in response to war with Jordan. Israel wanted a buffer zone.
If you look back at the original plans for Israel planned by the UN, it was to give only desert land to Jews, sandwiched between Palestinians, with a "shared area" of Jerusalem.
That "arrangement was preempted in 1947 (8?) by the Palestinian attack, after which Israel surprised all and repelled the attacks, taking more land (again as a buffer zone, remember how small
the area is). So Palestinians have rejected Israel's right to exist from the beginning. Do you?
And why was that? Because they failed to recognize the state of Israel, something which they have continually failed to do. The Palestinians have also rejected multiple peace plans including a two state solution. Netanyahu and the far right government need to be stopped, but their policies are the evolution of decades of failed peace attempts.
And BTW, Israel's right to exist is in the same category as many other states created due to collapse of an empire, or as result of territory taken over as result of war: Iraq, Jordan, Czech Republic, Poland, virtually everybody African nation, etc.
The US assisted the Czech in ethnically cleansing the Germans from the Sudeten land. And does putting Palestine in the same category make it right? I don't think it worked in Afghanistan or Syria, and Iraq.
Re yes, Hamas struck first, Israel proved a soft target. Why? Because military ignore or undervalued their own intelligence. Tower guards along border REPORTED heightened activity right up to attacks, placed bets on who would be in shift. Those died. Israel would not listen to their own people. Israel was unprepared, surprised by suicidal infiltration and murderous progress. There’s a word, hubris. Confidence with no foundation. Relax, they wouldn’t dare. Placed their bets and got surprised. Perhaps, too, felt border areas a small price to potentially pay, like Ford Pinto, not THAT many people will die so Ford skipped the design change and paid far less in preventable-death suits. It’s a matter of cost/ benefits analysis. Pulverizing the gnat that roared, revenge is sweet. Prevention, negotiation, compromise, as easier.
PS Correct my understanding, Gaza was not a country but a state with no government of its own? Israel was in charge of Gaza, as courts for settlers that defied borders and built anyway? Expected to be rule over infringements? Israelis may travel wherever they want in the world? People in Gaza can’t travel anywhere?
Why do you take the Islamist POV Glenn" Are you a Muslim convert or by birth?
The problem the Arabs have is that they started the ball rolling and are keeping it rolling.
In 1948, a couple of months after the UN declared Israel a state, the Arabs invaded and got their asses handed to them,, Israel for it's own protection took land to create a border, a boundary and with good cause, because in 1956, 1967, 1973, 2006,and Oct 7th the Arabs tried again, and each time they got their asses handed to them, and lost more land. The Arabs call it the Nakba, the catastrophe, but like HAMAS on oct 7th they brought it on themselves.
Doing the same thing again and again expecting different results is insanity.. In that regards the Arabs are insane.
And FYI, those you call Palestinians are Arabs, cousins and brethern to the Arab nations that surround them, but want nothing to do with them. In fact jordan, Egypt and Saudi Arabia won't let them enter their countries and evict them when found as illegal imigrants.
Have you seen the videos? Any of them on October 7th? Israel never did anything remotely resembling what Hamas did. Don't excuse this type of brutality and violence. You are not safe from it. Hamas mission is to convert the world to radical Islam.
Did you not see how they prevented Christmas celebrations? The western women they are getting to wear hijabs and convert? This is their ultimate aim. If you refuse to go along you may be treated the same way. Hate has no limits my friend. None
It’s so predictable that some will accuse anyone who opposes what Israel has been doing to Palestinians for decades of being an anti-Semite, a Jew hater, etc.
You must not have lived in any one of the refugee camps. Or had a rocket fired at your home in surrounding neighborhoods. Or hid in basements during Israel’s bombing raids. Or not been able to protect your children, especially your teenager boys, from being targeted, harassed and threatened by Israeli soldiers at checkpoints to show papers they don’t have because you are deemed stateless. My Palestinian (and Lebanese) friends have lived through horrific experiences at the hands of the IDF and the illegal occupations by Israel of Palestinian Territories and the war in Lebanon.
Genocide is genocide. The only difference between now and the last multiple decades is the scale and end goals clearly identified of Israel’s actions.
There are so many falsehoods in what you say it can only spell that you are among the indoctrinated. Apart from the obvious dislike you display for people from the Middle East, I have no issue with Jewish people. I have an issue with the Israeli govt and the propaganda they spread around the world and to their own citizens.
And some call them freedom fighters. The 3/4million cleansed want to recover the land taken from them. The remaining second class residents want equality. Hamas has moderated; read their later charter. “Hamas affirms that its conflict is with the Zionist project not with the Jews because of their religion. Middle East Eye 2017 Charter in full.
I don't accept claims W/O evidence. Who offered the land; did they own it. The British conquered Palestine, does that make them morally owners? They have the right to give it to whom they please? The destruction of the Zionist entity is legitimate, because it was given to the Zionists by a conquerer. Do you have a recent audio or written record of a Hamas spokesperson that they wish to kill Jews, because of their religion?
bc .... thinks Ad Hominem attacks are a fallacious argument.
p.s. Obviously not offered all the land they wanted, as it didn't include the Zionists' land. AND not what they wanted, but what was theirs.
Selling of Palestinian land by the Ottomans makes as much sense as the Elgin marbles offered to Bruce by the Ottomans. The land offer you state doesn't explain the land taken by the Nakba in '48.
Their purpose of being is to eliminate the Zionist entity. I agree, if the replacement is a secular democratic state, probably not achievable.
However a very liberal Muslim state wherein Jews, Christians, and nones have equal civil rights would be OK.
Please state my delusions.
bc ... doesn't need the respect of an Ad Hominem attacker.
HAMAS is an armed miliary organization it is like saying All Americans are Marines, but all Palestinians do cheer on HAMAS.
When Video's of HAMAS and Islamic Jihad were streaming into Gaza, on Oct 7th I can well envision Innocent women sitting in front of their TV's and cell phones ulating and innnocent children jumping up and down cheering.
If Hamas is not defeated they will continue to terrorize Israel like they did on October 7th. I’m afraid Israel has very little choice but to fight. Hamas wants to wipe out Israel and I’m afraid this will never change.
It is neither moral nor wise, and certainly not "pro-Israel," to pursue tactics that cause a net gain in the amount of hatred that exists toward the country. Just as the US created vastly more people who wished the US harm than it killed in its "War on Terror," Israel can claim any double digit percentage it wants in terms of the amount of Hamas destroyed. It will still pale in comparison to the number of Palestinians and others around the world who now see them as the evil many have always claimed them to be.
It is SO self-destructive for Israel to continue this Netanyahu campaign of ethnic destruction in Gaza {and spilling into the West Bank}.
Netanyahu has been clear that he does not consider Palestinians deserving of a state of their own. This is monstrous, but not out of keeping with his stated intentions to NEVER see an independent Palestinian state.
Israel’s origins, taking Palestinian land does matter. Not in ‘justifying Hamas recent actions,’ but the long karma of what we do coming back to us. Further, Israel has consistently pushed its borders into what Palestine was left with. Israel, acting in a manner like Israelis were treated in pogroms through much of the world, looses its moral authority.
Just as the US karma of killing all Native Americans to steal all they could, bringing in slaves for cruel and commercial gain will backfire on the US, origins & how they are reparated or not, matter.
Israel has been practicing ethnic cleansing for 75 years, practicing apartheid for fifty years, practicing torturing people of an open air jail ( Gaza) for sixteen years. Palestinians have the right to resist with arms. Israel, as occupying power, has zero rights. Israel has been created by ethnically cleansing Palestinians.
BS. I take it by your name you are Hindu, first clean your own toilet, The BJP is a racist, muderous party, and remember Guajarat, the massacre of 2,000 Muslims by Hindu nationalists/
Israel hasn't taken in any land, except in response to it being attacked, and exception being the current conduct of the Orthodox Jewish and Right wing settlers, whose actions are abysmal and unjustified. They are criminals. They shoot and kill Arabs on the west bank, drive them off the land, and because every Israeli is a soldier or reservist, they don uniforms and are supported, often by IDF soldiers, not necessarily the IDF but right wing inclined soldiers.
Now that is a problem, but it doesn't justify Oct 7th. not in the least.
The international jurist Professor Emeritus Eric David of Brussels University, deems the IDF a “legitimate target” and asserts that “of course they (stone-throwing Palestinians) are allowed to do that...certainly not only from a jus contra bellum point of view, but also from a jus in bello point of view”. These are the two separate strands of the laws of war; Professor David legitimises stone throwing as protest in the face of military violations from the perspective of both strands.
So where does one draw the line?
"The right of resistance of the Palestinian people is grounded in law, custom and conscience. It is the moral duty of international organisations, governmental or non-governmental, to recognise this right, and aim to facilitate a dialogue which reflects the reality of the situation in the Occupied Territories."
I won't call you an antisemite David , because Arabs claim to be semites, descendants of Shem via Abraham's son Ishmael, but certainly a Jew hater, as you believe any propaganda that casts the Jew in an inhuman light.
Neither that entity of the other entity, Iran, are democracies, but, tho. imperfect: "... By 1989, women dominated the entrance examinations for college attendance.[3]"
Support of Israel for continued military action in Gaza is wrong for multiple reasons, including very bad for US interests. I agree with RR on all except I believe Biden has quite a bit of power he could use with Netanyahu. I'm not sure about the political ramifications domestically if Biden took strong action to rein him in but it's time for bold leadersdhip as Sen Van Hollen stated recently. Israel dependent on our foreign military sales.
Not really. Israel is hated by the Islamists because it is liberal Western, not so much because they are Jewish. In the U.S., Jews and Muslims mingle harmoniously. The problem is with the radical Islamists in the Middle East who view Israel as Western "colonization" of the region rather than fellow Semites.
Jews and Muslims mingle harmoniously here. Nobody other than right-wing Evangelical whites get along with themselves. Notice the resemblance between radical Islamists and Evangelicals...
I am going to disagree for the first time with you Professor Reich. You are viewing this horror in a vacuum, as if the horror started on October 7th. Israel was founded on the principles of European white supremacy, colonization, dispossession of the native people's lands, and eradication of the Palestinians' culture as well as their lives. Sure, Hamas committed a terrible act. I would even call them acts of desperation. Can you blame them for committing it? What else can you expect from people when they are being *systematically* annihilated both physically and culturally? What would *you* do if your home was being stolen and your children were being murdered? And this has ben going on for 75 years, supported morally and financially by the western world. Shame on us!
“I would even call them acts of desperation” BS! these were well planned out atrocities against women and children. Rape, mutilation, be-headings and being burned alive!
Why does nobody mention the billions of dollars of „Western“ support on an annual basis for the Palestinians for all those years? Their leaders live and have always lived in luxury. But besides that where does all the money go? It seems there is no oversight on how it is spent or whom it benefits. Why are so many Palestinians despite this financial generosity still living in poverty? Why are their hospitals and schools so primitive and lacking just about everything when there is so much money flowing on a monthly basis? Look at a country like the UAE that takes care of its citizens and leaves none behind with the flow of dollars.
We give 2 million to the Palestinians and then take away 50 Billion in potential GDP by giving 15 billion to Israel to destroy Palestine. See how easy that math is?
There's the argument you're making for Hamas and every other Jew hater. Your callousness toward the UN established state of Israel is precisely the kind of hatred which has stymied any real solution. Please take your hatred elsewhere.
FINALLY ROBERT! This is still a bit watered down for my liking and it’s coming very late but better late than never? America’s pandering to AIPIC is a large part of the reason so many more lives have been lost in Gaza. Let’s not forget that horrific UN vote America made. Make no mistake, Biden will have a hard time condemning something he is fully funding - weapons for Israel’s indiscriminate use.
... but check the use of 'America': the country that attacked Afghanistan in an ill-conceived "War on Terror", went looking for WMD's where they weren't to be found, etc. etc..
(Does it seem possible that the pandering has something to do with our government having been co-opted, e.g. by people who do not speak for the majority of Israelis nor for Jews?)
October 7th blah blah blah. Let’s look at the real problem here, Israel and its land theft, murdering of innocents for decades, the racist apartheid system, and their control of every single aspect of the Palestinian population.
If you think that this issue has a both sides you are mistaken. Zionism has been the biggest problem since day one. You’d have to be seriously deranged and dishonest if you believe anything else.
Sorry Robin but you are not as impartial and as historian as you purport, You exposed yourself with this: "who doesn’t adhere to any theological bullshit or propaganda from Zionists." Your prejudice just oozed out of your pores.
My prejudice? You mean the fact that I don’t believe in fairytales or the “bible” or Old Testament as you people claim? Theological nonsense doesn’t trump facts or archeological evidence. Your bullshit oozes out of your pores if you adhere to Zionism.
You lived in a “country” created by Zionists in 1948. My mother is older than “Israel”. I can guarantee that she has more Levant DNA in her than you and your ancestors do. You’re a colonizer and a joke.
You lived in a country that belonged to other people created by clowns. Balfour declaration was signed for Rothschild $$ to pay off Britain’s war debts. Land they didn’t own to give away. You should go back to school. Clowns like you give Non Zionist Jews a bad name.
And? Who says that they are? Gazans aren't imprisoned, they aren't told what to eat, how to eat, when to sleep, when to get up, they live in an environment of their own choosing.
That they are over populated is the fault of the men, who need sex so badly , that they breed like Rabbits.
79 years of attempts by Arabs to obliterate the only jewish nation in the world. J.D.?
Christians have the American continent and Europe, Orthodox Christians have Russia, Serbia and much of Eastern Europe. Muslims have 57 countries, almost half of Africa, and the Jews are criticized and have been trying to be genocided for 79 years over a tiny sliver of desert in the Levant?
It hardly matters who the colonizers are. If it were the Netherlands occupying Palestine then the Dutch would be criticized. Unfortunately, for Israel, the introduction of international law was introduced long after all the Eurocentric colonialism you referenced occured.
The Jews are not colonizers, you have bitten into the b.s. of propaganda.
The Jews actually bought the land from the Arabs that lived there, and there were Jews living in the Levant for thousands of years, even during the Ottoman years. They started migrating in the 1920's and bought land from the Arabs., and after WWIII they moved in in droves looking for a safe place to live, and bought the land. That is not colonization.
When the Arabs saw what the Jews had done to a land that they neglected for thousands of years, and by a people whom their own holy books told them were inferior, they tried to evict the Jews in 1948, they failed and the Jews took some land as a buffer, for self protection against an enemy who wanted to obliterate (genocide) them, and they failed, again they tried in 1967, lost more land, again in 1967, lost more land, again in 1973, lost more land (this time the Golan Heights), they never learn, because they are insane with religious wrath, again in 2006, now again in Oct 7th.
To do the same thing again and again expecting different results is insanity.
The Arabs are insane, with religious wrath. It is in their sacred Text and in the HAMAS sovenant.
Accusing Israel of colonization is simply ignorance of the word and the facts, or mouthing Islamic propaganda.
The Arabs tried to obliterate (Genocide) the Jews in 1948, and again in 1956, 1967, 1973 and each time they lost, each time the Jews created a buffer from the land of the people that tried to obliterate them. The Arabs lost, because of their own hatred of Jews caused them to underestimate the Jews,, and call the loss the Nakba or catastrophe.
Nakba my ass. Never would have happened if the Arabs had just accepted the presence of the Jews and their state. Which by the way was not stolen from anyone, but bought.
The Jews who settled in Palestine were Europeans the same as all the other Eurocentric colonizers you referenced above. Many of the settlers who settled the new world were European Jews. Settlers who irradicated the native population.
Yes and no. The Jews who lived in the Levant and many that migrated in the early days were Sephardim., the Askhkenazim came later after WWIII, and Hitlers attempt to kill all the Jews.
When you say European you are talking of a mixture of peoples. For instance some say the irish are Europeans, but they are of Celtic Origin, whereas the Italians are different from the Spanish and the Spanish are different from the Slavs, and the Slavs differ from each other.
I see your simple reductionism of European settlers eradicating the original inhabitants, might be true for the U.S of A, but not true for Israel, but I can understand how a simplistic mind would come to that opinion.
Europe includes Ireland a country historically oppressed by the English. The Spanish were one of the most savage and bloodthirsty colonizer in history. Eurocentric Colonialism is founded on white supremacy which still persists today. However, Israel is an ethnostate while America is not.
Had absolutely nothing to do with colonizing and everything to do with finding a home for a group of people slaughtered during WWII, who couldn't face the countries from which they came. Jews and Palestinians had been living in Palestine for centuries, why wouldn't they be able to share a sparsely populated area? The agression was started after the creation of Israel by the UN, 1947. Palestinians attacked Israel one day before its official creation as a preemptive strike. Should Israel have not fought back then? What about in 1967?
Or, 75 years of Palestinian aggression. There is a reason that belligerent Palestinians have been expelled from Egypt, Jordan, and Lebanon. Where ever they go, they seem to bring militancy and disruption. "Palestine" has never had a functional government since the collapse of the Ottoman Empire. https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/lebanon-palestine-contentious-history-armed-resistance
They weren't oppressed, they were asked to share a sparsely populated area with Jews. In 1947 there were few living in Palestine. The history is much more complicated.
Defending the poor and down trodden is commendable. Defending the oppressor is only commendable from a point of view of material profits and power gained from it.
Thank you for that interesting glimpse into naivety. So, the whole world is neatly divided into the "oppressed" and the "oppressors." How neat and tidy...
No, not tidy at all. One often has to choose between their principles and gaining economic power. No one who reaches the higher centers of power does so by being a free thinker. Tow the party line or fail to gain approval.
Amen Amen Amen. Thank you for putting it so clearly. At this point, Biden‘s silence has the potential of derailing his presidency. I know from talking to young Palestinian Americans, that they will not vote for Biden, because he has blood on his hands particularly with children. It’s an oversight that makes me weep. I wish I could look Biden eye to eye And make him see what he is doing. This hurts us all.
they don't think that far. Maybe they will vote for a 3rd party candidate who meets their principles. Such is the unpragmatic idealism of many not just the young.
Biden could stop Netanyahu in his tracks if he, Biden, were willing to stop providing arms and ammunition to him and his IDF’s killing of 125,000 innocent Palestinian men, women, and children. Because he won’t do so Biden is complicit in those genocidal, war crime killings.
I differ with you completely. Nothing can be discussed until the hostages are brought home. They are being tortured and raped. NOTHING can stop until then.
What the Israeli government, and especially Netanyahu and his cohort are doing is not achieving the goal of bringing the hostages home. And it is generating dedicated enemies for Israel for the foreseeable future.
Miriam, Hamas will not discuss returning the hostages. Are you reading Haaretz?? Think about your daughter being raped every day and dressed as sex worker clothes like a doll. Think about your son being raped. They must come home and hopefully heal…NOW
I am reading Haaretz...they have been clear that Netanyahu has not prioritized the return of hostages. If he did so, it would accelerate the conclusion of the war.
The end of hostilities would mean Netanyahu would be forced to face judgment on corruption charges. Hostage family members are furious with Netanyahu.
I'm sorry, but this is nonsense. Netanyahu has rejected every effort to release the hostages. No one even knows how many hostages have been killed via Israeli bombings. I would suggest you listen to Ezra Klein's recent interview with Tom Friedman.
Netanyahu has rejected…?? I can’t believe you said that. No, not willing to allow how must stay in power and her borders to be compromised. You are correct about that.
So continuing to destroy Gaza and kill innocent Palestinians, mostly women and children is somehow changing their minds? If it were working, I think I would feel differently.
Doing what you're doing gets you what you're getting. Your words are nothing but apology for genocide. You won't say so, but your logic allows for nothing else.
If they are not actively engaged in acts of terror, they are innocent, regardless of whom they support. There are Israeli Jews who call Palestinians animals. Do they deserve to die? Of course not. Do Trump supporters who use inflammatory language deserve to die? Of course not.
BS. They said they would return them when a lasting ceasefire takes place, but BN and his bloodthirsty cronies want Palestine and its people gone, as they openly admit.
Netanyahoos goal is not to bring the hostages home but eliminate the HAMAS leadership, the cowardlly leaders hiding in Qatar and Egypt are certainly on the MOSSSAD hit list.
100 or so remaining hostages pales in comparison to Netanyahu’s IDF killing of 125,000 innocent Palestinian civilians. Netanyhu is the same class as Hitler’s murdering Jews and other “undesirables.”
Remember that Hamas terrorist attacked. They took these young people and old people. Citizens from around the world. Imagine if it was your child. JUST IMAGINE
Yes, Hamas did attack. There is no argument. It is morally wrong... it is horrific.
What prompted them to attack?
When I was last in Israel (about 8 years ago) I noticed a change in attitude by the Israelis vis a vis the Palestinians. from previous visits. I noticed a distancing and I observed disdain.
Consider the fact that if a Palestinian son commits a crime, the Israelis bulldoze the parents home. (I'm thinking of American Rachel Corrie who was killed by a bulldozer.) As a mother, if someone were to knock down my home, I would forever rage against those who did so. I would forever tell my younger children that I used to have e.g. a skillet that made better food... but the Israelis destroyed it. Inadvertently my rants would create more angry Palestinian youth.
The only peace making way to go forward is to have more schools like the Quaker school where Israelis and Palestinians learn together. Much needed are more orchestras like the Jerusalem Orchestra East and West in which musicians of Christian, Jewish and Muslim faiths play together.
The first time I went to Israel in 1961, there was no wall around Bethlehem... now there is. And it's tough luck if a farmer's field's are in the way of the wall.
The Balfour Declaration was never been fully implemented... people need security... on both sides.
What prompted them to attack? They don't recognize that Israel has a right to exist and they have always attacked European Jews in the region.
"In 2006 Palestinian legislative elections Hamas won a majority in the Palestinian Legislative Council, prompting the United States and many European countries to cut off all funds to the Hamas and the Palestinian Authority insisting that the Hamas must recognize Israel, renounce violence and accept previous peace pacts. Israel refused to negotiate with Hamas, since Hamas never renounced its beliefs that Israel has no right to exist and that the entire State of Israel is an illegal occupation which must be wiped out. EU countries and the United States threatened an economic boycott if Hamas will not recognize Israel's existence, not renounce terrorism and shall support the peace agreements signed between the PLO and Israel in the past. Hamas officials have openly stated that the organization does not recognize Israel's right to exist, even though the organization expressed openness to hold a long-term truce. Hamas is considered by Israel and 12 other countries to be a terrorist organization and therefore not entitled to participate in formal peace negotiations." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Israeli–Palestinian_conflict
That is pretty disgusting. That reducing people to statistics.
What do those figures have to do with the reality that 30,000 people who were once someone’s child are dead?
Can any person who has lost someone feel better if their enemy lost more?
Is not every human loss TOTAL to the dead person. Is not every human loss DEVASTATING to loved ones?
The losses on both sides are DEVASTATING …
The fighting over there is NOT solving the problem of driving Hamas out of Gaza. The Hamas attack on unsuspecting Israelies did NOT change the government’s policies toward Palestinians.
NEITHER “response” {and both sides say their actions are in response to the other’s actions} is functional or in any way defensible, or in any way promoting an end to the abysmal situation is Israel vis a vis two peoples living on the land.
They have to stop fighting and talk. Just f-ing talk!!!!
I was simply trying to correct Roger Elmore's assertion that 125,000 Gazans were dead without being critical of him. I think it really destroys an argument when it's full of an inaccurate numbers. I think what Israel has done to Gaza is an absolute utter war crime and I hope some Israelis leaders end up in jail.
THE ZONE OF INTEREST. It won the Grand Prix at Cannes and is the Polish entry for the Oscars. It depicts the life of Rudolf Hoss, Commandant of Auschwitz, who paid the ultimate penalty after the war. He and his wife built a dream life for their family in a sprawling house with a beautiful garden right next to the death camp! And were utterly indifferent to the daily massacre next door, even as they could hear the cries of agony and could see the flames shoot up from the incinerator.
I wonder if I will live to see the day Israeli politicians and their generals are punished for the horrendous atrocities they are committing every day.
The number displaced and injured, the numbers dead … It is all so horrible.
What Hamas brought about with its hateful attack in October is horrible beyond description — that attack, and the aftermath. What Israel is doing in retaliation, visiting death and destruction onto millions … unspeakably wrong.
The way people see wrongs done to others is so skewed by emotion and fear —
The “retaliations” — feuds, actually — will only end when a decision is made to STOP.
Then, ways to live together on a small planet need to be found. Driving a people out — or wiping a people out — is not a part of it.
And you support the killing of Palestinians and the destruction of Gaza. But I would never say you are guilty for what you support, only for what you actually do. Wrong support is only thoughtcrime. It's only authoritarian fascists who want to criminalize the 'wrong thought' of others--or justify genocide with it.
I don't disagree. You are probably innocent, unless you buy Israel bonds. Then you are funding the genocide. But since Palestineans on the West Bank are being attacked, it is hard for me to understand your point there.
{And for the record, I also hold Hamas responsible for using Palestinians as pawns, as though they did not matter. To my mind, it’s of a piece with YOUR attitude., unless you have something to say for yourself that is not just nasty.]
Even if it ends Hamas, this is not a solution that will protect Israelis. The little boy whose mother has been killed? In five years, he will be joining with others to attack Israel. The group will just have a different name.
And so on and so on. When does it end? Do you think Israel will wipe out all Muslims? Surely if they wipe out all Gazans there will be other Muslims(and some non-Muslims) who demand retribution. That's how violence works. The only lasting solution is diplomacy and nonviolence.
Yes, war has rules, and they say it is a great wrong to try to destroy a whole people. If it's wrong when others try to do it to Jews, and of course it is, then it is wrong when Jews try to do it to others.
Israel? You stand with Israel? Hardly. You may have sincere fondness for the state of Israel, but if Israel followed your advice it would become a pariah state. If you really stood with Israel you would be trying to help it into a brighter future.
There's zero evidence of that. Stop with the lies. But Netanyahu should have focused on bringing them home as his first priority and then start the genocide. (Bitter laugh.) He literally doesn't care.
I don't think that there are many if any to release.. HAMAS already slaughtered a family, and blame it on the Israelis.
The had instructions when the terrorists left Gaza not to take any infants or young children, as they are too much trouble, especially infants and toddlers, they cry, urinate and defecate in their clothes, have dietary needs, like baby food, medicines and are too much trouble.
There was a mother, a father and a daughter of 10 months that HAMAS claimed was killed by the IDF, I believe that they were killed by HAMAS because the 10 month old was too much, and the parents were killed because they were witnesses.
If Israel stopped bombing today Hamas would continue to terrorize Israel, and who even knows if the hostages are even still alive. I would imagine the horrors they are going through they may be better not being alive.
Completely agree. I was speaking to the only possible explanation - emotion, namely blind citizen anger. Of course for Netanyahu it's devious manipulation of that anger for his own selfish ends. Straight from the Trump playbook.
I have listened to people closer to the situation there and the estimate is 70% of the civilian deaths are women and children, which would total approximately 17,500 people. And this is an old statistic, but 3 out of every 100 Palestinians have suffered bombing related injuries. Israel's military has become its own evil machine, and often the politicians are told lies by the military (Pappe's "The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine" offers some perspective). Not only does Israel appear to be enacting some sort of horrific retribution, but it seems to be inextricably tied to wreaking vengeance for the horrible atrocities of The Holocaust.
They are beyond out-of-control, and must be condemned for these continuing war crimes. Make no mistake, the IDF are becoming expert war criminals.
There is no military solution to eliminate Hamas! Killing 1000 innocent civilians for every 10 Hamas fighters, will only strengthen Hamas in the future. When 3 to of 10 orphaned and traumatized teenagers and children will join Hamas2.0. The best way to eradicate Hamas, is by eliminating their recruitment arguments! Stop the occupation, stop the oppression, stop the ethnic cleansing, stop apartheid, stop the the Genocide!
Israel has persistently blocked and slowed humanitarian aid from reaching Gaza, in addition to its relentless bombing of areas that it has told Palestinians to go to as safe areas. It has killed quickly by bombing and slowly by starvation and disease. It has also detained and tortured thousands of Palestinian civilians: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/01/23/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-palestinian-detainees.html?
Biden's policy has been to provide Israel with all the bombs it could want, courtesy of us taxpayers, and then politely ask Israel to refrain from its relentless bombing of Gaza. Biden has treated Israelis as human beings like him, but Palestinians as merely a problem to be dealt with, dehumanizing them. Netanyahu laughs in Biden's face because he knows the U.S. will never lift a finger to hold him to account.
I don't want my tax money paying for this. As I see it, Biden could end the war in Gaza expeditiously by supporting a U.N. ceasefire resolution and by refusing to provide more weapons of aggression.
Two terrible wrongs will never equal right. It's an old saying and a bit trite, but I think still true.
Two monstrous wrongs do not cancel each other out, either.
It has always been true, Jane. And it still is. So true.
Secretary Reich: I am very disappointed in you. You couldn't believe the paranoid storm you unleashed with your fantasy about Trump being able to steal the 2024 election.
Trump didn't get away with it when he had presidential power in 2020, when he lost 60 lawsuits. What makes you think that any ham-handed attempts at coercion will not be thoroughly exposed In 2024, with a result that we he will end up with a total of 100 plus criminal indictments?
And that includes indictments in every state where he tries this!
Jack Smith would just love to sink his teeth into this!
Ms Weber
Think how close it was last time. If Pence had created doubt and not certified, if Jeffry Clark was AG, if Michael Johnson was Speaker and/or if Ravensberger for 11,000+ votes. Go back and look at how the 2000 election was stolen, read Scalise nonsensical opinion, ponder that it was 5/4 at Scotus and think about how different a Gore presidency would have been from Bush.
Yes, be very paranoid and afraid.
Yes, I always believed that if Gore was allowed to gain the presidency he had won we would not have invaded Iraq and the world would have turned out very differently. Gore also would have put us on a better path to mitigate global warming.
And we would have addressed climate change!!
Before it got to a catastrophic point where considerable damage became inevitable.
Agree whole-heartedly on both points, Wayne.
A much better path! One of the worst mistakes & turns for the worse ever in US history.
He would have been . working with a balanced budget. Continuing reducing the annual deficit
Agree 100%. You can go back further - what if Regan had not pulled that stunt with Iran, and Carter had a second term? What if Kerry had prevailed in that razor close election? And the big one - what if Hillary had prevailed over Trump? All these outcomes were well within reach. And all would have had a profound positive effect on the future. Republicans, IMO, have for a very long time stunted the advancement of the USA as the shining light it could have been.
I just think that Trump is a very inept criminal and his machinations will be easily exposed. I really can't see it happening as you fear.
Then you need to read "The Rise ans Fall of the Third Reich". Hitler failed the first time but learned from his mistakes, then succeeded. We would do well to believe what Trump says and acknowledge the preparations already underway.
What we are experiencing here is a haunting replay of what Shirer witnessed and set down in Berlin Diary. Trump's adversaries consistently underestimate him. Trump may well be an inept criminal, but he is cunning and vicious and is motivated by resentment and hatred and seems to know how to game the system better than those who set it up.
As a result of my studies of this terrible crime on humanity and conversations with survivors of the Shoah, I completely agree, Mr. Parrish. While Ms. Weber sounds a note of hope, she is also courting complacency. The daily assault of information whether news or opinion is enough to screw with everyone's head, forcing many of us to simply tune it all out. We must not be ostriches and bury our heads in the sand until it is too late. Call me an alarmist, but I've recently renewed my passport. Many of my husbands family were lost to the camps; this pre-election year is no time to deny the tragic possibilities. that my lie ahead. VOTE BLUE AS IF YOUR LIFE DEPENDS ON IT, BECAUSE IT DOES.
TRUMP is a tool.
Do not think he must be the one to shape the scheme, because he wouldn’t even have been inaugurated the last time, were it not for the likes of Bannon and Manafort and Kellyanne. They are NOW trying to skew the vote. They are NOW trying to devalue the functionality of “democracy.”They are NOW denying the strength of our eoconomy. They are NOW leaning on prices to keep things dear to the day laborer. They are NOW scaring us with the idea of an immigrant horde. They are NOW passing laws in Red states to limit early voting or mail-in in voting or even helping others to vote!1 They are NOW figuring ways for the minority party {the R’s} to grab enough Electoral Votes to win.
You should be very worried. It happened before. It can happen again. If we are not careful … and don’t reach enough voters, even in Red {or ‘Purple’] states.
And beside them are right-wing billionaires and the Federalist Society.
He is and has been a very inept criminal for decades and due to being a rich white man, he has NEVER to this very day, suffered one single legal consequence to any of his multitudinous crimes. What makes you think another Trump government where he has vowed to rid the government of all of his opposition will somehow end with him being punished??
And he still has the money that all crackpots right wings around the world will placate him with. Putin, Netanyahu, Victor Orban, Putin, Xi Jinping would all be better off if Trump was president... and they know it, and they've been encouraging the traitors in Congress...
If Trump is such an inept criminal, how has he managed to skirt the law so adeptly his whole life? Doesn't sound at all inept to me.
Trump is a man with few skills & no virtue. However, those few skills he does have, have allowed him to brilliantly con, hoodwink & grift from others & get away with all sorts of wrongdoing & treachery throughout his life.
Kathleen - You're correct that drumpf appears inept. But remember he's only the public face of the oligarchy which pulls his strings. What Reich describe as a possibility is already happening in red states where the secretary of state positions are going to election deniers. Don't be misled by the cartoonish figure that drumpf portrays. He is essentially "winning" the lawsuits with his slowdown strategy and with his crony judge loose cannon in florida. And even though his machinations are repeatedly exposed, it only emboldens his potentially violent base. he's done almost everything in the open and yet he still walks free.
Trump can't win the 2024 election by winning red states. The question is can he successfully cheat in swing states, which I don't think can do without being really obvious about it. And I don't think he's a puppet. There's not one instance in his first term where he was not making the decisions. People do bring outlandish ideas to him, but he's the one who decides to act on them.
It's not just TFG we're talking about.
Yes, you are preaching to the choir. "We" all "see" and understand that Trump is an idiot, a bare-faced liar, unfit, cognitively impaired, degenerating faster by the day. For reasons we cannot comprehend, Trump's weirdness, inability to do anything effective--does not stop most people from at least SAYING they will vote for the Republican, whoever it is, and if Trump is mentioned, those voters nod that Trump has the Republican ticket and their confidence to be the next president.
"The reasons you cannot comprehend" are that so many of the yellow-coifed toad's followers are evangelical Christians who truly believe that Trump is Saul on the road to Damascus reincarnated, and that he was sent by God to save all of them! These people are too . . . I don't know . . . lazy, willfully undereducated, refusing to seek better lives for themselves, and so they are ripe to be cult followers, and Trump has had this figured out to his advantage for a long, long time now!
But his crimes are so obvious. Biden and his Justice Department will have two months to dig up the goods. They won't go slow, they will have this in the courts inside a month, long before the Electoral College meets.
There are a few things that Trump is especially expert at. Unfortunately they are all sinister, criminal, immoral, devious & dangerous.
The one "saving grace" is that the depravity that Trump is infamous for, & the dementia that many have predicted & remarked about, are now manifesting themselves in a way & to a degree that's getting hard to ignore, & can only be expected to get worse as this year progresses.
I think you seem to be engaging in some wishful thinking. That's also how we felt before Roe was overturned.
In 2020, he failed because the didn't have so many insurrectionists in Congress. The first time, Hitler didn't have a whole team with him. Now, Trump does.
Those who will vote for Trump do so because they don't care he is a criminal..
He is their avatar, they look in the mirror and they see Trump, they look at Trump and see themselves. He is the fulfillment in the flesh of all they hope for.
Trump is who they wish to be. He gets away with things they wish they could get away with. He gives them a license to be their worst selves.
Don't underestimate the depths even SCOTUS will go to install Trump. It's the economy, stupid ( not to plagiarize but the economy has always been "their money". You suckers and losers can pay for all this.
If that is the case, why didn't they take the opportunity to keep trump in power in 2020? They dismissed his appeals to Scotus by 7-2 if I remember correctly.
And I have a bridge to sell you.
Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice ......
Reich didn't "unleash" anything. This is just reality setting in and the lessons of history. Again, work for the best, plan for the worst. I do agree that the vast majority of Americans aren't in favor of either
Trump nor violence, yet look at the havoc a few thousand did on Jan 6. 30 million is a lot more than 3000.
How is this related to Gaza?
Someone hijacked the thread.
Continuation of previous posting earlier today.
Kathleen
I direct you to the Democracy Project analysis of Trump and conservative think-tank plans to steal the next election. Don't think it can't happen here. IMO these are ruthless people who have little regard for democracy and democratic systems.
You are for appeasement. We get it.
Kathleen, sorrowfully paying attention to the news, reliable polls are showing Biden's votes will not exceed Trump's. Search, polling YESTERDAY, Biden 43%, Trump 44%. Robert Reich isn't making this stuff up. Don't we WISH it were personal conjecture by someone ill-informed. Terrible truth is, Trump, even with all that shows he is unfit, appears ahead in every poll, relative to Biden, good government and-all. https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/president-general/ OR "Biden and Trump Evenly Matched," https://news.gallup.com/poll/548138/american-presidential-candidates-2024-election-favorable-ratings.aspx
polls more than two months out from the election are utterly worthless. So says Nate Silver, one of the greatest pollsters In world history.
Sorry. But it would be foolhardy to discard the possibility that trumps last coup attempt was just a practice round, analogous to Hitler’s first coup attempt. Trump has all the Republicans currently in government already lined up behind him. In the last 24 hours he clearly verbalized his plans for retribution against Vicky Haley.
It’s going to be a bumpy ride. And what he plans to do on and after day one as dictator has been very openly and clearly laid out by Project 25.
If wishes were horses? Stop wishing, stop hoping, stop dreaming and get involved.
For months now I've been planning to go to the nearest swing state and drive 50 voters to the polls. That's my plan. BTW, I also went to a swing state to help during the 2020 election.
And margin of error is rarely reported by bad pollsters
Agree, Kathleen. All this agonizing and pearl-clutching this far out is just counter-productive.
You are not serious or just overly naive. You sound like Chamberlin.
Despite all the drama, Trump is not going to "steal" anything. As foolish as we Americans may seem at times, we will not allow that to happen. This is not the same circumstances that existed in 2000 - and, fair or not in the grand scheme of things, ended peacefully and quietly - no mass chaos in the streets.
How about a dose of reality Kathleen
It takes 270 Electoral votes to win the election. There are 226 Blue state electoral votes, that are either safe or leaning safe, 235 Red state votes which are safe for Trump. All red state votes are dafe.
There are only about 5 swing states, and all are in the rust belt, created by Bill Clinton when he signed NAFTA and GAAT.
Six swing states if you go by the 2020 results, but Georgia has been cancelled because a Republican Govenor and Legislature have passed voter supression laws.
They are WI, MI, PA, AZ, NV. Arizona is registered Republican, has a Republican legislature but a Democratic Govenor. Pennsylvania, aka Pennsyltucky, is Pittsburgh in the west, Phillie in the East, and Phillie is majority black, however young black males have a grievance with the Democratic party, because they have not had their wish list fulfilled, they might sit out the election, if they do then PA will go red.
These angry voters will indeed give Democracy and the Biden the finger but that finger will be shoved up inside their own rectum, by the man that their stupidity put in office.
Trump doesn't have to steal it, he already has. He starts off with 235 electoral votes, he only needs 35 more, and the Republicans are hard at work on voter suppression via Robo calls, ads, intimidation.AI and Spoofing. and where that doesn't work, they show up at polling booths armed to the teeth to intimidate.
Meanwhile the Congress will be Republican controlled, 27 red states guarantee it
As for electoral votes WI has 10, Mich 15, PA, 19, NV NM 5. AZ 11, Florida and Ohio were once purple, but no longer, DeSantis has made Florida dark Red, and Ohio is also Dark Red.
Here is the current polls, Trumjp is ahead in 5 swing states
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/05/us/politics/biden-trump-2024-poll.html
Thanks to Republican voter suppression laws, Georgia is no longer a swing state.
Nate Silver, one of the greatest pollsters who ever lived, says that polls are useless until two months before the election.
As for me I'd rather say, "the sky has fallen,” one time, than
"the sky is falling" a 1000 times.
If you are that convinced, maybe it's time to pick your next country.
There is difference between saying the sky will fall, the sky is falling and the sky fell.
The sky is falling is a signal to get off your rumpus and do something.
Your approach is to sit back and wait until the sky falls.
I'd say Kathleen is refraining from hollering before she's hurt, as my dad would say. Don't assume doom until it's actually impending. Before then, keep on an even keel and work for a good outcome.
Oh, I am so sad you are dissapointed. But Secretary Reich does lnow what he is talking about. America is in serious peril. We ALL need to sound the alarm!
Besides sounding alarm, being alarmed, walking around for months with elevated stress hormones, what exactly is your plan for counteracting trump?
First of all, I will make my vote count. Then I will tell daily, as many people as possible, as I have done while waiting for him to be behind bars, how important each and every vote will be, so the results do not go to the electoral College.
But trump has such good attorneys (sarcasm intended).
Hasn't prevented people from voting for him!!
Is there a limit on how often a loser of their run for the Presidency can run again?
No, there is no limit. Grover Cleveland ran for president three times. William Jennings Bryan ran three times, and now DJT is running three times.
There is a limit on how many times you can serve as president, twice.
In Professor Reich's defense, the "paranoid stream" is ALL-ENCOMPASSING at this point! Bunkerboy, terrifying and infuriating as it is, HAS a shot at killing America in 2024. Remember: a man in prison CAN play president from behind bars!
The article was to wake people up, not make them paranoid. Don’t you think Americans can handle the truth?
How about that Trump and his fellow conspirators have learned from their mistakes? Please don't hide behind your naivety.
Of course, you've got a great knack for finding the monsters under the bed, so you will regard this as just more naivety on my part.
I've given it some more thought and I actually do not think it will get to the point of needing to stop Trump “in the streets” so to speak.
Step one: Get out the vote so that there are very few close states. My own personal plan is to go to a swing state and drive 50 people to the polls for early voting and on election day.
Step two: We need a massive poll watching effort. State Democratic parties need to contact every election worker and say that we have attorneys who will take their affidavit regarding any pressure they receive from Trump supporters.
Step three: Be ready be ready to litigate the election. In 2020, the Trump side filed 60+ lawsuits disputing the election, virtually all of which were dismissed for lack of evidence. Because we will have a great poll watching effort and affidavit collection effort we will be able to file lawsuits in 2024 with abundant evidence of any trump shenanigans. Because the courts were so solidly in our favor in 2020, I see no reason to believe they would not be similarly fair in 2024.
Conclusion: if this three-step game plan is followed, I don't see any way that trump can steal the 2024 election.
Sorry you mistook me for the enemy but us lawyers always look at any situation in its worst light.
You said: "Please don't hide behind your naivety."
I think that most would find that a bit disparaging. I have been accused of being overly optimistic today.
It's trite because it's out of context. One side is the oppressed, the other is the oppressor. This is history. Even the State Department website names Israel as an occupier.
No, the state department does not say that. They recognize Israel as a country
Israel is a country and an occupier, of course. It occupies territory outside it's recognized borders.
In that definition it is. It is a recognized nation. Israel offered the Palestinians a state the day it was created. They rejected it
This is so ridiculous it’s laughable.
So let’s use an analogy:
A govt from another country comes to your door and tells you your house, neighborhood, city, and state are being given to another group of people to form a new state. You no longer can live where you live. You no longer own your home or land. The other country is giving your land to someone else.
You are arbitrarily expelled from your home and expected to find a home somewhere else.
Oh and the newly imported people are now citizens of the new state. You? You have no state.
Would you take issue with this?
Sally, do you have the history on that? I was looking and never found it...
I will send it to you. Give me a minute. I'm. Not home
Another myth. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MON2HL02mec
Zionist lies
UN planned to create 2 states in Palestine: Israel for Jewish state, and rest of Palestine for Palestinians. The day before Israel was to be birthed officially, Palestinians attacked the Jewish settlers.
Exactly...the complexity.
Netanyahu is a criminal. MORE THAN 76% of Israeli's want him gone!!
And ALL the Arab countries expelled millions of their Jewish brothers and sisters immediately upon the creation of Israel. They had to leave every behind. Life isn't neat and tidy
A zionist coverup for the true historical injustices perpetrated by Israel (and the US) upon the Palestinian people. https://www.middleeasteye.net/big-story/truth-behind-israeli-propaganda-expulsion-arab-jews
Sadly, we tend to measure or forget the comparisons of the two wrongs. One involves retaliation in the form of beheading of children, rape & killing of women, slaughter of families, and hostage taking for leverage. The other seems to involve . . . simple defense (much like the U.S. would do) but includes collateral damage due to the tactics of the other side (entrenching with the local populace, that while innocent, endorse the slaughter (Oct7) while suffering from the retaliation of defense of the other other group. The two wrongs, are never that equitable in extremity or modern justice.
Collective punishment has been a tool of the right-wing Israeli government for years. 1400 killed by Hamas, unforgivable, 25,000 Palestinians killed in response, more than half women and children, war crime and also unforgivable. Both are crimes against humanity and are caused by two different dogmatic religions. Zionists believe their God gave them the land in question. Hamas believes that their God requires them to make the world follow Islam and allows them to kill anyone in their way. Neither God, or any of the hundreds of Gods that people have fallen for, have any evidence to support their actual existence.
You see collective punishment, the Jew sees self defense.
Answer me this. Honestly and succinctly, what was the Jew to do, after the Arab invaded his home and slaughtered his family?
What is, in your mind, the appropriate response?
Answer me that please.
Lee, it is what should have been done BEFORE they attacked.
Netanyahu never considered the Arab world as equal and worthy of negotiating with.
You must buy and insurance policy *before* you have the accident.
After the Balfour declaration, there should have been 2 states created: One for the Jews, one for the Arabs, but only one was created. The Palestinians were on their own. We never were honest brokers in this conflict.
Arming Israel while they slaughter innocent civilians is irresponsible. I fear that Biden is losing his Presidency in doing this: It is "worse than a fault: an ERROR".
We have been supporting the State of Israel against Arabs to the tune of $3.2 Billions/ a year, every year.. Bibi just gave us the perfect reason to stop this hemorrhaging of cash from our taxes.
Threaten to leave him holding the bag by refusing to send any help his way until he accepts the 2 States solution.
Lots of thing wrong with your comment Cecile. First the should haves', we all have our should haves, they do no good in solving the current dilemma. I use dilemma on purpose because it is not a problem, problems have solutions, there is none to the situation, at least none that is palatable
Frankly considering the religious thousand year hatred of Jews by Muslims I don't see a two state solution. Not to mention the fact that Islam is triumphalist and absolutist as is Christianity, Judaism is not.
Further the soil on which the state of Israel sits is considered sacred soil by Muslims, especially since it is where their sacred Al Aqsa masjid and Dome of the Rock are located., in the same vein that Muslims consider Saudi Arabia to be sacred Islamic soil.
A Palestinian state, residing next to and sharing borders with an Israeli state will be in perpetual conflict,
Jews and Arabs claim to be semites, the name is derived from the mythical Noah's (Utnapishtim to the Sumerians) son Shem, the great great great great grandfather of Abraham who had two sons, supposedly, Isaac and Ismael. Isaac is the supposed father of the Jews and Ishmael of the Arabs.
There is no record of animosity towards Ishmael of his descendants in the TeNACCH (Old Testament) but there is in the Quran and the Hadiths. Muhammad had 600 Jews of the Banu Quareysh beheaded six at a time, in the market place of Medina, and the hadith of al Bukhari talks of the obliteration of the jews, sahaih (verse) 1295 and 1295, Book 56, hadith 139, al Bukhari. (also the Hamas Covenant paragraph 7 , article 7).
As regards our subsidization of Israel, look at it like this. Israel is an unsinkable air craft carrier within striking distance of every capitol and facility, that could be a threat to the world's ability to even defend itself, much less feed itself and provide the goods and services that you depend on for life and comfort.
Google the 1973-74 oil embargo, Saudi Arabia's response to our support of Israel during the 1973 war. I don't know how old you are or were then, or even if you were alive, but the oil embargo affected ever aspect of our lives in the USA, from our ability to get to work to our ability to feed our families.
The 2 state solution is not a solution, just a source of perpetual war. To start with the Palestinian State has no endemic industry, only olive and orange groves, and then there is he fight over water. something no one has addressed., the Jordan river is just a dirty stream these days. and it runs out before it reaches the Red Sea. Jordan doesn't want Palestinians, neither does Saudi Arabia or Egypt, yet they are making pretense of supporting them.
In the ignorant western mind everything is just so simple.
WHY do view this as some sports contest where "the score" matters more than the win?
Do you believe Israeli soldiers are purposely shooting at known innocent civlians, women and children, raping them, beheading. . ? Imagine if you will (a twilight zone moment) a poltical group of hundreds of terrorist, invading the U.S. and raping and slaughtering Americans, including women and children, desecrating their corpses. WHAT do you think the American response would be? And using our similar military where the invaders are hiding amongs the civilians in a dense city, the similar collateral damage. Bombs and rockets. . are not "surgical."
And you're confusing or conveniently mistaking this is both about religion. There is no Jewish/Zionist agenda about throwing out, killing Muslim/non-Jews, to occupy a homeland. That's just a convenient attempt to legitmize a known, document 15th century religion that says clearly "infidels must die" and expecially the Jews (hey, because their our neighbors, and. . ) or includes the complete anilation of Israel as a state.
You're correct that any god would endorse anyof this. .even Allah per Koran? . . but we critical thinkers. . KNOW. . this is nothing about religion or what God wants.
Great Comment Keith.
Yes, Israel is in fact killing indiscriminately. This is evident by the ~250 daily they kill, ~50 of which are women and ~120 are children (women and children are about 70% of the population and also make up about 70% of the deaths). Israel killed many of their own on October 7th via the Hannibal Directive. They killed 3 of their own hostages who were carrying white flags. I watched a woman holding hands with a child who was carrying a white flag (read: obviously a civilian and a woman with a child) get killed by a sniper.
We "get it" Sara. . you dislike Israel, it's gov't, it's military. But don't misrepresent the facts or truth to push your agenda. I don't believe you honestly "believe" the Israeli soldiers are moving through Gaza "INTENTIONALLY" killing obvious innocent Palestinians (women and children). And your familiar comment that "IDF killed several Israeli citizens by accident/collateral damage. . is evidence, you're anti-Israel.
Yes, there are many "innocent" Palestinians being killed by Israeli military as they try to root out and kill Hamas fighters who are hiding in building and tunnels amongst the civilians. This is what war does expecially using weapons of mass destruction, e.g. missles, rockets, bombs, explosives. . . (go check out WWII, or any modern war). And over 210 Israeli soldiers have been killed in this "war" some with sophisticated rockets that can penetrate armed vehicles. . and if you want to try and trump this argument by quotiing "numbers killed". . it's really irrelavent the difference in numbers but the total human beings killed,. . right?!
And stop seeking out what you feel is evidence supporting your belief/agenda. Open your mind to what "truthfully" has happened and not getting biased news from the Palestininan authorities, . .or even the Israeli news.
This is a very unfortunate event. But sadly it divides us almost as much as our current politics do, even those of us progressives that care. . too? much. But we have to be honest about the facts more than our feelings. Any way you view this, this is two cultures in conflict. . one that's modern democracy, not affected by religion, and trying to live in peace. . and another living in the past, driven by religion and ideology, that wants to destroy a fellow country AND it's people, and has no qualms invading and slaughtering women and children. . deliberately. Those facts should better serve to influence your belief, than a biased perspect of what seems the powerful over the oppressed.
When the demographics of the deaths match the demographics of the populous as a whole, the killing is indiscriminate. About 70% of the population are women and children and about 70% of the death toll are women and children.
I do not get my news from any one source and take the mainstream media with a grain of salt. I analyze each article using TheFactual.com and cross-reference multiple articles. Most of what I'm seeing are live events captured in people's stories. The real, every day experiences of people in Gaza: Israeli troops open fire on people seeking food from aid trucks; Israeli civilians and military alike brazenly echo online that "Palestinians" must die, including children, when given a platform on livestreams; people holding white flags trying to regroup with family are shot and killed; people trying to recover the bodies of their friends/loved one who were shot and killed are shot and killed. Israel is very clearly not solely targeting Hamas.
Except that Israel was founded and ruled by secularists for decades. Only recently has their policy been effected by right winged religious zealots.
Yes. America has Trump,Israel has Netanyahu. America has MAGAts, Israel has it's own version the "settlers"
Very well put!
Not “sniveling” about the outright massacres of war?
Egad. You think “c’est la guerre” is some kind of all-inclusive excuse?
Lots of us detest things that happened in WWII, and so many other “theaters” of war before and since.
I will say,there is a distinction, though, between COUNTRIES at war with each other, and the situation existing in Gaza and between Gaza and Israel.
You are choosing to see this conflict as one between equals, and it’s not.
And you are hearing this from me, a person who is SO supporting of Israel’s existence on this planet. But I want Israel to be what it promises to be and what its people want it to be — a democratic country lead by honorable people. Bibi is not honorable, nor are too many in his administration right now.
Many countries and diplomats are trying to help these warring FACTIONS to reach a solution. Bibi wants only to rid himself of those Palestinian pests on his land. {My characterization of his attitude.}
AND Hamas wants the same vis-a-vis Israel.
Neither of them is capable of decreeing what MUST be a solution to this horror.
Mass destruction is NOT a solution.
You almost rose to the occasion of being rational.
Your last line is just more nasty … racist, absolutist, and nasty. Smacks of “collective” responsibility and punishment due.
Israel is NOT fighting for its “survival” in Gaza. Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank and East Jerusalem are completely incapable of destroying Israel. They do not have the organization nor resources to be an existential threat to Israel.
Left alone, they can be a serious threat to individuals in Israel and a serious thorn in the side of the Israeli government, but they cannot threaten Israel’s survival.
Actually, Hamas probably staged the attack because Israel was coming close to making alliances with other Arab countries in the region and THAT threatened Hamas’s survival.
The Palestinian people in Gaza have not had a functional chance to vote Hamas out in a longtime.
If one insists on equating “Hamas” with its state sponsor Iran, that still does not mean that Hamas can destroy Israel; it means Iran can hound and harass Israel through Hamas.
If Hamas is “destroyed,” that will not make Israel more secure vis-a-vis Iran. The radicalization of anti-Israeli factions will be ongoing, and this horror in Gaza only feeds it.
You apparently have nothing to contribute to a serious conversation about the realities on he ground in Israel. You spout the party line, but it’s nonsense.
I have read that Israel is recruiting Americans to argue on their behalf on social media. I'm curious if you are such a person. I don't mean to be accusatory because I think it makes sense to have a voice on social media arguing for one's position. But if you are such a person, it would be better not to be so unsympathetic to the plight of ordinary people of Palestine who are not part of Hamas. I know some immigrants from Palestine who live in my home town in Ohio. They are decent people and productive workers. I have to believe that if they are given an equitable situation in their homeland, they wouldn't be so hateful toward Israel. Do you agree?
It's not a war if you can't defend what you're up against.. plain and simple. It's a genocide and the US is supporting it!
It is not a genocide and doesn't fit the definition of a genocide in whole or in part. Calling it a genocide is pure propaganda.
A Genocide requires an intent, and Israel has no intent to genocide the Arabs, and Palestinians are Arabs (neither Jordan,Saudi Arabia or Egypt want anything to do with the Palestinians, they forbid them entry and evict them when caught.
On the other hand HAMAs i its 1988 Covenant which it has not refuted, has dclared Genocidal intentions on the Jews, as does the Islamic holy books in particular the hadith of al Bukhari, sahiah 1295and 1296, book 56, hadith 139 The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem).
The preamble to the HAMAS Covenant
Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it" (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory).
That my dear, is genocidal intent, and Israel has no such intention. in fact Israel has 2 million Arab ciizens who have the vote, and in fact until the last election had representation in the knesset.
How many Jews, without or without the vote, can be found in Islamic nations? I will answer you. 0 in Saudi Arabia and the most anywhere else is 500, and they don't have the vote.
gen·o·cide
/ˈjenəˌsīd/
noun
the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group.
"a campaign of genocide"
Similar:
racial killing
massacre
wholesale slaughter
mass slaughter
It is a genocide. Get your mind straight on that.
FYI. There were no babies beheaded.
Secondly, an unreported number of Israelis killed on Oct 7 were at the hands of their own IDF, who were operating under a resurrected Hannibal Doctrine. It’s been reported in Israeli media but ignored by MSM
K. Miller: Thank you for speaking the truth!
Here's video for you https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-shares-video-hamas-gunman-executing-woman-oct-7-2023-11-20/
I’ve ceased to be surprised by people saying things that can’t possibly be verified by anyone other than those who were there during the attack by Hamas in Israel. Unless you, K. Miller, were actually there, all you’re doing is spreading unreliable information. This adage: “If you experienced it, it’s the truth” the rest is hearsay, rumor, or propaganda and it’s not helpful. And though many misguided Americans think President Biden is also the de facto leader of Israel or can stop what’s happening in Gaza with words, the reality is there is very little he can do to affect what’s happening in Gaza that would make a difference.
So you’re saying that the if Biden stopped giving arms to Israel, instead of more than quadrupling the free weapons with zero strings attached, it would have no effect, right?
And as it relates to those Israelis killed by the IDF on Oct 7, that is coming directly from Israeli media. We all witnessed the IDF shooting 3 shirtless Israeli hostages waiving white flags and yelling they were Israelis still being mowed down. The Hannibal Doctrine is a policy.
But if you want to talk about any number of tropes against Palestinians and the propaganda oft repeated by Israeli apologists, it’s a long list.
I can see how one can conclude that providing weapons is affecting the war and I do accept and appreciation that connection and that it may be having an affect. My problem is that I’m not privy to why Biden is doing so or even that there are “no strings attached.” What I’m saying is I don’t know nearly enough about the current or historical situation there to understand why Biden or Netanyahu is doing what each is doing. I’m inclined to think Biden had to take a side but that’s about it. I’ve read so much from both sides and so it’s a lot easier for me to be neutral than maybe it is for many.
With regard to what is provided by Israeli media, I think you may agree with me that it’s as reliable as the US media.
Correct. It’s as reliable as the U.S. media. Which is to say it’s not reliable.
There are no ‘both sides’ to genocide.
Hitler had his point of view, too, but it doesn’t change the facts.
Although their lies are well documented, at times I believe what the Israeli government/IDF are telling us.
Israel relies on US funds to kill civilians:
A retired Israeli major general named Yitzhak Brick stated the following about the ongoing IDF assault on Gaza.
“All of our missiles, the ammunition, the precision-guided bombs, all the airplanes and bombs, it’s all from the U.S.,” Brick said. “The minute they turn off the tap, you can’t keep fighting. You have no capability. … Everyone understands that we can’t fight this war without the United States. Period.”
You’re one sick dude. And Bob didn’t even comment about your ignorant lying comment. Oh. And maybe the babies weren’t beheaded. They were cut out of their mother’s bellies and left to die in front of their parents who were then killed. What kind of culture does that? What kind of person says it didn’t happen.
You are posting something that has been already exposed as false.
The repeated attempt to claim barbarism by Hamas on Oct 7 is an attempt to negate the reality that literally thousands of Palestinian infants and children have been killed in the last several weeks and months. They have been crushed and sliced to bits by the flying shrapnel thrown by the 2000 lb bombs Israel has dropped among many other cruel and horrific acts of deadly terror by the IDF.
To deny that Hamas Oct 7 attack was a reaction to the increasing violence from Israeli settlers and Israel’s apartheid regime is a demonstration of the dehumanization Palestinians have been subjected to for decades.
here you go. https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-shares-video-hamas-gunman-executing-woman-oct-7-2023-11-20/
Problem number one is revealed in the title: Israel shares…
Are you aware of the pr machine funded by Israel?
Oh please! Israel sucks at PR. Truly horrible. Watch the video. It's from the wire service. The video was taken from go pro cameras .
Have you heard of AIPAC?
Do you know how many millions of dollars they fund in political campaign donations to both Dems and Repugs and the full range of federal to state candidates?
That’s a matter of legal record.
I will send you something to watch. Yes. There were babies beheaded, young girls raped and murdered, mutilated and burned alive.
It’s been revealed to be false.
False about the babies
Urban warfare is very different than battlefield warfare. Hamas is ensuring maximum civilian casualties in order to further its own objectives. 25,000 is a gigantic number, though no one knows if it is accurate and it's a tiny fraction of the total population. On the other hand, Israel could have killed many more civilians if it had that objective. The conditions in Gaza are horrendous for those people being used by Hamas as human shields. Hamas needs to be held accountable, not celebrated for its brutality. Shifting the blame to Israel is just furthering their agenda.
Thank you!
Excellent common sense and factual comment Carol.
Agreed. So many uninformed comments!
Hamas WANTS more civilians to be slaughtered so us Westerners get too scared to strike back!
It's also not very complicated. There are now many videos of war crimes such as sniping patients in hospitals, murdering journalists, controlled demolishions of political buildings, schools, and residential blocks. This is literal genocide. Stop trying to muddy the waters. It's simple
*Hamas is ensuring*
Trying to fix it for you, Holy shit. You said "Hamas is enduring the maximum civilian casualties...". Bigtime mess up lol. THE RELIGIOUS FASCIST ISRAELI APARTHEID REGIME is ensuring maximum civilian casualties. Had to correct that glaring error. I'll give you benefit of the doubt that was just an accident. It's interesting when you learn that the three Co founders of Hamas - in two separate instances their villages were slaughtered by the IDF as kids. And that the netanyahu regime personally propped up, funded, and armed hamas as a strategy to globally delegitimize their cause. It seems it's all backfired upon them finally, and unfortunately most Americans are too propagandized, religiously and tribally, to recognize we have created this situation. It's our vassel state in the middle east afterall
https://www.reuters.com/fact-check/video-captured-woman-mistranslates-captor-threatening-rape-2023-11-08/
So is everything that reports actual facts and history, particularly when actions are based on ancient books of fiction.
@ Barry. You issue your own death warrant? Putin speaks.
Barry is a Putin agent. He sows dissension about the west, always in the service of Putin.
The first victim of war is the truth. Israel is right but not good (with decision to obliterate, genocide). Can't blame them. Ignored their own intelligence, no one expected that.
Well spoken/written. I can never figure out how to convey this. Attacks and the violence they cause have to stand and be addressed as singular events. As far as I know, in a very specific sense, the oct 7 attacks and subsequent kidnappings were not a retaliation, but a deliberate and coordinated attack. Israel’s reaction has to be tempered with the knowledge that Hamas is purposely using densely populated areas to operate in and around. If there is blame to be attributed to any entity, the responsibility for civilian casualties is obviously on the shoulders of those who started the hostilities then chose to hide behind their own civilian population. I don’t think Israel has a moral responsibility to take the high road, as the “high road” tells Hamas they can act with impunity towards Israel’s civilian population.
I believe you are over simplifying. WE MUST CALL A SPADE A SPADE!
lol. . seriously, Veronica. . just throw out some axiom and generalize the problem???
It is simple and it's complex. But some expecialy (us) liberals, try to view it through rose-colored glasses. . we try to judge it by power over the powerless.. . number of deaths differences. . .rich vs poor. . without one comparison. . modern thinking minds vs 5th century minds defined by an interpreted religion. I'm no expert on Judaism, but I doubt if there anything about infidels or non-believers and how they should be treated differently ( or killed). I'm not defending Israel, I'm just simplying the comparison and contrast, but "stepping back" from a predetermined agenda of . . "oh, the poor Palestinians" and noting the Hamas terrorists they support/vote for. Israel has it's radicals and extremists. . but they don't go slaughter/rape Palestininans. . therein seems to be a unique difference in the conflict?
I am opposed to Netanyahu, and wish Israel had another leader. Alas, the 10/7 attack planned and executed by Gaza's elected Hamas government included much brutal rape. I don't think this is mentioned sufficiently, especially as local gov'ts are pressured to condemn all the horrific collateral damage.
Please consider watching Jake Tapper's interview showing Hamas leadership being ok with martyrdom in order to achieve their goals. https://www.cnn.com/videos/world/2023/11/06/the-lead-protestors-call-for-ceasefire.cnn
I briefly considered writing something about the brutal 10/7 rapes to yesterday's Mainstream Media topic which concluded by condemning Trump for being "judged to be a rapist"; but, I hesitated.
Hamas has the ability to free the hostages. Strategically, Hamas leadership would prefer to let Gazans die as martyrs. And, Putin is happy with this diverting attention and support from Ukraine.
No one, including me, would approve of this, but: "theoretically", instead of tens of thousands of Palestinians dying as Israel seeks to free hostages and eradicate Hamas leaders, Israel "could" flood all the Hamas tunnels in Gaza to drown both Hamas leaders and all the remaining hostages.
Israel would not deliberately kill the hostages held by Hamas. That is why Hamas still holds them . . . as a bargaining chip to win. Meanwhile, Israel looks more and more like a genocidal invader.
Israel actually shot and killed hostages walking towards them with white flags in their hands.
There is documented evidence of multiple war crimes by the IDF. The International Court of Justice heard an allegation of purported genocide against Palestinians recently, with plenty of photographic evidence and ample evidence of intent on the part of Israel.
Understand, Mitch, but I feel you're grabbing at minutia.
Replacing Netanyahu would not change anything regarding this conflict/history (any you know Israel will never put in power someone who wants to give Palestinians a separate state/more area).
Hamas like the other Islamic terrorist organizations "are" organized, and WERE voted in by Palestinans, AND Palestinians approve of the Oct 7 attack by 78%. So separating Hamas from Palestinians is non-starter. "yeah, there are "good" Palestininans. . just like "good Muslims.. . is is the culture, but more the religion."
How "one dies" shouldn't matter, as in the same caveat "how many die" doesn't always matter. It's not a "contest" of evil, or numbers. The fact that it's historic, on-going, and will continue. . is what matters. Resolution will have to come internally, within Palestinian leaders, within the religious leaders, within the local Arab/Muslim societies. I see "some" hope here. . but history shows this has been going on so long, it won't happen overnight (in our lifetime?) "Martyrdom" is just an example of the extremism and outrageous behavior.
The alleged "tens of thousands" (you know it's much less!. . "who" is reporting these numbers?!). . .some will say is ("legitmate?") "collateral damage." When Hamas literally puts their headquarters in the basement of a Palestinian hospital, and lives/operate with civilians, and keesp the hostages. . likewise. . are we shocked that many innocent???? Palestinians are dying? Modern militaries use weapons that are not surgical, if they do, they loose their own/risk. Relate all the Iraq/Afghanistan US military actions, and how many innocents died/collateral damage. Sadly! it's the way of our modern military/response. You know if this happened within the US by a foreign country. . lets say Mexico. . the US military would respond likewise, and if Mexico had Gaza type (most populated city in world) homes, same thing. So we can't focus so much on "numbers" or "innocents" (expecially when the innocents voted Hamas in and support them. . "it comes with the territory")
I'm not defending all of Israel's and Netanyahu's govt decisions, but rather. . CONTRASTING them! Perspective are everything. . both through history and geographically. Religion and modern progressive empathetic feelings seem to be ignored?
Jane, that is a simplistic way of looking at it. The Jews have been fighting since 1948, for survival as a nation, and for thousands of years for survival as a people.
While Islam, carrying a black banner and a sword has taken over almost half of the world.
And though they "own" 57 Countries, including half of a continent and all of the mid east, they aren't satisfied and begrudge a tiny nation of 8 million Jews and 2 million Arabs, a little slice of land that they neglected for thousands of years.
Einstein said the definition of insanity is doing the same thing again and again expecting different results.
Well the Arabs tried to genocide the Jews in 1948, they failed, they tried again in 1956, 1967, 1973, 2006 and Oct 7, 2023, failing each time. That is insanity.
The much beloved banner of the Idiot left, and I considered myself a progressive having voted for and contributed to Pramila Jayapal, and supported the Progressive Caucus, of Free Palestine from the River to the Sea is a call to Genocide... period.
Israel (and people like Robert Reich and me) are always guilty before proven innocent in the eyes of too many. Those numbers he posted come from disputed sources. Our policy is a two state solution. As soon as there are two parties negotiations can begin.
Hamas has a history of killing its own people and blaming it on Israel. https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2015/05/gaza-palestinians-tortured-summarily-killed-by-hamas-forces-during-2014-conflict/
At the present time, Hamas and its allies are still holding hostages. They have been effective in dividing support. Too many have rushed to judgment.
Judges at The Hague-based International Court of Justice will rule on Friday whether or not they will grant emergency measures against Israel following accusations by South Africa that the Israeli military operation in Gaza is a state-led “genocide.” In the initial ruling, the ICJ will not deal with the main question of whether Israel is committing genocide. The court will just look at possible emergency measures, meant as a kind of restraining order while the court looks at the full case, which usually takes years.
The presumption is that you care too much, assuredly...
I've said this many times. Over 1,000,000 Israeli Jews speak Arabic as their first language, Some speak Farsi. Their families were sent by Moslems in 1947-1948, ostensibly to die in an Arab march "from the river to the sea." . https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_the_Muslim_world
More than 2,000,000 Israeli Arabs live in peace, and have civil rights, their own political party, and hold seats in the government. I know more than 100 "Palestinians" now in Pennsyltucky and Ohio, who self identify as "Arab Americans:" mostly Maronite but other Christian sects. All fear Islamists. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_Israel#:~:text=Ten%20Christian%20churches%20are%20formally,in%20Jerusalem%20and%20the%20Middle
I also had contacts in Gaza, trying to escape. https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLgMrrtQlw2QNQ0o6WAqH-_FiEiEYn0g3U
We are not privy to actual negotiations. Any assertion to the contrary is bullshit. Want to save lives? Get Saudi, Qatar, Oman etc. on board.
Meanwhile Americans came under attack in Syria, Iraq. We are in a hot war in Yemen.
I believe this goes against the teachings of every major religion, maybe not in those words, but certainly in these sentiments. Can anyone name a religion that doesn't hold this truth?
Just what I say
Many people have woken up to Israel's 75 years of lies and censorship. But don't worry, the US has your back and powerful forces are working overtime to keep our tax billions flowing to the merciless occupiers/colonists. I don't buy Sabra hummus lol, but somehow I don't think that makes a whit of difference.
What lies and censorship. You have just outed yourself as a Jew hater. You haven't ever read Ha'aretz have you, it is an Israeli paper highly criticial of Israel's policies and actions. There is no censorship in Israel, especially self censorship.
I'm not a Jew hater in the least. I have read Ha'aretz and The Times of Israel and a lot of other publications, including many about the horrors of the Holocaust. I don't know how much censorship goes on in Israel, but I am seeing a great deal of it here in the U.S. and I'm also learning about the past. The initial lie was that Palestine (which Israel says never existed) was deserted. I never heard about the Nakba until recently. We mostly heard good things about the kibbutzim and, of course, much shock and grief about the Holocaust, which was still fairly recent history at that point.
Actually Palestine never existed, it was never a state. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine_(region), during the Ottoman Empire it was just a region ruled over by the Mamalukes (the slave army), it's occupants were a dhimmi Jews and Bedouins.
. Mark Twain visited Jerusalem and said of it, that it was a garbage dump. The Zionist cleaned it up and made the Desert bloom..
I do have a gripe that the likes of AIPAC and ADL have undue influence in our country, and politics, but so does the Christian church and Arab money.
Do you know who the major stakeholder is in Exxon?Saudi Arabia, and who owns the oil refineries in Cancer Alley?Saudi Arabia, and who funds prestigious universities?Saudi Arabia, that is why so many students are out on the streets yelling Free Palestine from the River to the Sea. They have been corrupted (influenced) by Arab student groups, Arab friends, and professors bought with Saudi money.
Official state or not, there was a thriving community there with olive groves, etc. 750,000 forced off their own land and out of their. Who would not be enraged?
I see large AIPAC donations to our politicians. And the censorship against criticism of Israel or support for the Palestinians is rampant. Nobody here likes Saudi Arabia. I stand with Vanessa Redgrave. I wonder if her support for them hurt her career at all. And Annie Lennox. Anyway, we won't change each other's mind, I'm pretty sure. The young people can see what's happening, but by the time the old Zionists in the US are gone, it will be too late. There's talk of sending the Palestinians to an artificial island!!?? Still working hard on reducing the population though.
Bingo, as expected.
Dang, he’s telling you to “go to hell” but you’re being accused as the hater. Crazy mixed up world we live in. Genocide, or even the question of potentially committing genocide seems about as hateful and morally repugnant as is possible.But go ahead and try to rationalize why it’s ok in this case.
Bingo nothing. Lisa you have exposed your own ignorance and bias.
There is no censorship in Israel, and if you want to talk about Lies, let's discuss the lies of HAMAS and Islam.
The Quran says that it is a sin to lie to protect one self, but it is a holy obligation to lie to protect Islam.
https://www.instagram.com/reel/C2gAchZhIQa/?igsh=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==
I love and respect Reich's comments on the economy, but he should stay away from commenting on Israel. I'm sick of requests for people to condemn Hamas. Where are the requests for people to condemn Israel's treatment of Palestinians over the last 70+ years? Bottom line: when you compare the suffering of Israelis at the hands of Palestinians to the suffering of Palestinians at the hands of Israelis, it's not even close.
I can definitely see your point, while at the same really appreciate that Robert commented on this.
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Donald Hodgins
Donald’s Substack
just now
There is a vast difference between supporting Netanyahu and supporting the Israeli people. It's sad they both can't occur simultaneously. The people side of the equation is easy to find compassion for while Netanyahu is a different story. What adds fuel to the fire is Hamas has recently stated that 10/7 will be repeated over and over again. What does this mess suggest that we do? There is no obvious answer to a question that seems to enjoy the spilling of innocent blood. Stop and think, the innocents are suffering on both sides, I'll give you, one side more than the other. A two-state solution will never work because Hamas wants to kill all Israelis regardless of age and gender. Until Hamas is dealt with and removed from the picture completely Palestine and Israel will never live peacefully in the area where they currently exist.
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Donald I completely agree with you, but add there is one other huge problem, The Israeli religious right (euphemistically "settlers" , and the very powerful Israeli religious right, which is formed around the Likkud.
They are a serious problem to peace, rabid Zionists. they are to Israel as is MAGA to to America, Nethanyahoo is to Israel as Trump is to America. Right wing religious fascisims be it Christian, Jew, Hindu or Muslimis the worlds problem right now.
Americans don't discuss it, neither do our media, but the party of PM Modi in India, the BJP is a right wing religious fascist party.
Putin's Russia, Orban'sHungary, and Poland just pulled back from the brink, by defeating the PiS (Law and Justice party, a rignt wing Catholic political party, very deefinitely fascist).
It is a world wide problem the rise of fascism.
Lee--To me, the world's problems are caused by one common element, religion. For some unknown reason this subject has no common ground from which to address the issues. Faith has become a time bomb whose fuse has been lit since the beginning of time. More people have died through wars started over religious differences than any other reason. I see no answer other than outlawing God, LOL. We'll let congress deal with that one.
Have no use for religion either. But this conflict is about land and resources. In 2019, it was revealed that there are approximately 3 billion barrels of oil and 1.7 billion (unit?) of natural gas under Palestinian lands. Israel has already started extracting what does not belong to them. Always follow the money.
K--With that large of a deposit Israel could have tapped into it by drilling on an angel to the source. No one would have ever known.
That I agree with Donald, but I will add greed and power, but they all have one common origin,
the need for domination, particularly patriarchal domination. What is motivating Putin, not religion, the dude has a Napoleonic complex, shorter than Napoleon, he skulks around with a nagging sense of inferiority, and has to prove his the BMOC, knocking out and knocking off his competition. He wants to rebuilt the old Tsarist/Soviet Empire to prove his BMOC, the dude is an imperialist of the first order, and a colonialist because he wants to replace the residents of Ukraine with Russians.
Countries personalities mirror those of those that lead them. China, North Korea have inferiority complexes, and are paranoid, they only way to secure their safety, so they imagine, is by domination, and controlling the countries that border them, the problem with that is,that no sooner do they integrated their neighbors, then they have new borders.
One may be 'macho" and still suffer from fear and a nagging sense of inferiority, the more macho one is, the more that fear.
Iran has one hell of a complex, almost every nation in the world has trod through it , warred against it, anguished it, The last attempt was by an Arab neighbor, a Sunni Muslim, Saddam, and it is only Muslim because a bunch of lizard eating Arabs whipped the Persian General at the battle of Kerbala., a fact which still irks them and has been memoralized by the Persian poet Ferdowsi in his Shahanemeh (Book of Kings)
As regards religion. As an atheist I don't consider believers to be perceptive, semi sentient, but not perceptive. Region's have not civilized mankind, unless you consider mental and emotional enslavement to be civilized.
On the other hand, it requires an ideology around which a tribal identity can be forged.
Who ever it was that created the first religion, knew that intuitively. Men on their own have no personal authority, like the kid says to the parent, or another kid, who made you ruler.
However if you can convince others that an almighty and unseen diety can dole out reward and punishment, then you have back up.. hence the evolution of religion, Attila and the Wtich doctor.
Of course one can't be the strong hand of authority that can kill and punish here and now and at the same time be the spokesman for this unseen entity that sees all., thus evolves the Witch doctor, who proclaims that you rule by divine right. And there is always suspicion and tension between Atilla and the shaman. One does not exist without the other, however neither trusts the other.
The founding of America presented a unique opportunity for a new world order.
Instead of a nation based or unified by religion, ethnicity or even race (despite the fact that the founders were rich propertied and often slave owning white men) they didn't perceive race as we do., ours is a unique legacy built up over time.
Only in America is nationhood, belonging based on an idea, and that idea is under attack and viciously and here we are distracted by affairs thousands of miles away.
Lee--An assessment worth publishing. I agree with you on all points, especially the religious aspects concerning the beginning of this country. Religion is supposedly a source of good and mutual appreciation; I just don't understand how it got so far off course. By the way I share in your religious views.
I wonder what would happen if Israel stopped occupying Gaza and the West Bank? It’s possible that everyone would be more secure and the back and forth conflict would stop. Continuing the occupation just creates more resistance.
Anubeion--Sound thinking but Netanyahu would never go for it. This guy has some serious issues, and they stand as obstacles to any road that points toward peace.
Anubeion--In essence what is happening over there is a triangle of hatred. You have the Palestinians, the Israelis, and then you have Hamas, the religious troublemakers, who only want death for the Israeli people. Through them all in a close proximity to one another and you get what we currently have, hell. Whose religion believes in that?
Secretary Reich has an influential platform here, and he has every right to offer his insights on any number of issues, not just the economy. I appreciate his informed views.
I don't see that Reich's post was anything other than condemnation of "both sides." Read it again. He's not pro anybody. Reich observes that Israel's overreach is condemned by the world. And, your point, that referring to "the last 70-years" is a smoke-screen, as if history excused stamping out everyone as Israel's Plan B. PS Reich happens to be Jewish, I figure he has people assuming his allegiance will be his allegiance, right-or-wrong. And he's saying, No excuse for Israel. And stop already. You guys are on the same page.
I can't necessarily blame people who are ignorant to the plight of the Palestinians. It is hard to find factual information in the western media. The following was from a recent substack post:
"Over 1,000 Gazan children have lost a limb, either one or two legs and or an arm since October 7th, making an horrific statistic – on average of 10 per day – as reported by Save the Children, and that number is growing daily.
But this assault on children’s limbs is not new. Israeli snipers have intentionally maimed Palestinians protesting in Gaza over the past years, creating a generation of disabled youth and overwhelming the territory’s already crippled medical system. The UN reported more than 8,000 Palestinians were shot by Israeli security forces during the Great March of Return protest (2018-2019) on Gaza’s northern border and the majority of these cases were children and young people. Again in the May 2021 protests some 685 children were deliberately wounded. By the end of 2021 there were more than 1,700 people in Gaza having undergone amputation, most of these teenagers or children.
According to a United Nations inquiry released in March 2019 over 80 percent of the 6,106 protesters wounded in the first nine months of 2018-2019 were shot in the lower limbs. During that conflict, where protesters were only throwing stones and burning tires, the IDF deployed more than 100 snipers, called up from military units, primarily from the special forces and gave them live ammunition with clear orders to shoot specifically to injure and maim. There are reports that these snipers took bets on how many legs or knees they could shoot in a day…..some moral army."
There have been nonviolent protests in the past by Palestinians. Israeli soldiers shot at them , unarmed civilians.
So Hamas is justified? Reich is saying that two wrongs can be true. It isn't "both-sides-ism", its just stating the historical facts. But if your implication is that the US should rethink its relationship with Israel, I agree. Yet it IS the only democracy amidst a sea of authoritarian barbarism.
I agree, except for not wanting Reich to comment. Even his treading lightly around the issue helps to shine a spotlight on the issue. Hopefully makes staunch pro-Israel supportes think more about Israel's current far-right, colonialist policies and the religious issues on both sides that lead to ongoing decades of conflict.
I'm sick of people making blanket statements about complex issues having a long history and often knowing little of that history. Reich is correct, both can be true. But he gets one thing wrong: the Palestinians started the conflict with a preemptive strike the day before Israel came into existence.
I'm not familiar with the strike you refer to but am always eager to be educated. However, if you want to go back to the late 40s, You're going to have to reckon with the senseless slaughter of Palestinian villagers by Israelis in Dir Yassin and elsewhere. You're right, it's an extremely complex issue. But if you had to sum it up in a single sentence, the last sentence of my previous post is irrefutable.
Your comment about Palestinians rejecting peace plans is specious because they have never been offered a peace plan that wasn't biased toward Israel by failing to offer the Palestinians what was rightfully theirs by international norms.
There was a very good one offered but Clinton. The fact of the matter is, as with Hamas, many/most of these people will never recognize any form of existence of the state of Israel. Why do you think Israelis are now intent on driving them completely from the territory to neighboring Arab states? Why do those same states reject any notion of relocating them? The whole Arab world is a cess pool.
There's your fallacy: "what rightfully theirs by international norms". What is that exactly? If you mean violation of the UN resolutions, I agree--the West Bank settlements, for example. Yet Israeli gains there were in response to war with Jordan. Israel wanted a buffer zone.
If you look back at the original plans for Israel planned by the UN, it was to give only desert land to Jews, sandwiched between Palestinians, with a "shared area" of Jerusalem.
That "arrangement was preempted in 1947 (8?) by the Palestinian attack, after which Israel surprised all and repelled the attacks, taking more land (again as a buffer zone, remember how small
the area is). So Palestinians have rejected Israel's right to exist from the beginning. Do you?
Israel expelled 700,000 plus Palestinians from their land in 1947. It is called the Nakhba.
The same applies to Gaza. Yom Kippur war, 1967. Israel took the land from Egypt as a buffer to their invasion.
Oslo accords, which the PLO immediately repudiated.
And why was that? Because they failed to recognize the state of Israel, something which they have continually failed to do. The Palestinians have also rejected multiple peace plans including a two state solution. Netanyahu and the far right government need to be stopped, but their policies are the evolution of decades of failed peace attempts.
The majority of posters assume Israel has the right to exist. I would very much appreciate an explanation or proof of this.
Exactly my point. Try reading history. Start with the UN, 1947-48.
So the UN is the moral dictator? I've already made a comment about the immoral creation of the Zionist entity.
Still haven't learned why the entity has a right to exist.
And BTW, Israel's right to exist is in the same category as many other states created due to collapse of an empire, or as result of territory taken over as result of war: Iraq, Jordan, Czech Republic, Poland, virtually everybody African nation, etc.
The US assisted the Czech in ethnically cleansing the Germans from the Sudeten land. And does putting Palestine in the same category make it right? I don't think it worked in Afghanistan or Syria, and Iraq.
Re yes, Hamas struck first, Israel proved a soft target. Why? Because military ignore or undervalued their own intelligence. Tower guards along border REPORTED heightened activity right up to attacks, placed bets on who would be in shift. Those died. Israel would not listen to their own people. Israel was unprepared, surprised by suicidal infiltration and murderous progress. There’s a word, hubris. Confidence with no foundation. Relax, they wouldn’t dare. Placed their bets and got surprised. Perhaps, too, felt border areas a small price to potentially pay, like Ford Pinto, not THAT many people will die so Ford skipped the design change and paid far less in preventable-death suits. It’s a matter of cost/ benefits analysis. Pulverizing the gnat that roared, revenge is sweet. Prevention, negotiation, compromise, as easier.
PS Correct my understanding, Gaza was not a country but a state with no government of its own? Israel was in charge of Gaza, as courts for settlers that defied borders and built anyway? Expected to be rule over infringements? Israelis may travel wherever they want in the world? People in Gaza can’t travel anywhere?
Thank you.
Why do you take the Islamist POV Glenn" Are you a Muslim convert or by birth?
The problem the Arabs have is that they started the ball rolling and are keeping it rolling.
In 1948, a couple of months after the UN declared Israel a state, the Arabs invaded and got their asses handed to them,, Israel for it's own protection took land to create a border, a boundary and with good cause, because in 1956, 1967, 1973, 2006,and Oct 7th the Arabs tried again, and each time they got their asses handed to them, and lost more land. The Arabs call it the Nakba, the catastrophe, but like HAMAS on oct 7th they brought it on themselves.
Doing the same thing again and again expecting different results is insanity.. In that regards the Arabs are insane.
And FYI, those you call Palestinians are Arabs, cousins and brethern to the Arab nations that surround them, but want nothing to do with them. In fact jordan, Egypt and Saudi Arabia won't let them enter their countries and evict them when found as illegal imigrants.
Have you seen the videos? Any of them on October 7th? Israel never did anything remotely resembling what Hamas did. Don't excuse this type of brutality and violence. You are not safe from it. Hamas mission is to convert the world to radical Islam.
Did you not see how they prevented Christmas celebrations? The western women they are getting to wear hijabs and convert? This is their ultimate aim. If you refuse to go along you may be treated the same way. Hate has no limits my friend. None
Wow..either a AIPAC troll or just another Westerner who relies on Israeli propaganda/MSM for their news.
It’s so predictable that some will accuse anyone who opposes what Israel has been doing to Palestinians for decades of being an anti-Semite, a Jew hater, etc.
You must not have lived in any one of the refugee camps. Or had a rocket fired at your home in surrounding neighborhoods. Or hid in basements during Israel’s bombing raids. Or not been able to protect your children, especially your teenager boys, from being targeted, harassed and threatened by Israeli soldiers at checkpoints to show papers they don’t have because you are deemed stateless. My Palestinian (and Lebanese) friends have lived through horrific experiences at the hands of the IDF and the illegal occupations by Israel of Palestinian Territories and the war in Lebanon.
Genocide is genocide. The only difference between now and the last multiple decades is the scale and end goals clearly identified of Israel’s actions.
There are so many falsehoods in what you say it can only spell that you are among the indoctrinated. Apart from the obvious dislike you display for people from the Middle East, I have no issue with Jewish people. I have an issue with the Israeli govt and the propaganda they spread around the world and to their own citizens.
And some call them freedom fighters. The 3/4million cleansed want to recover the land taken from them. The remaining second class residents want equality. Hamas has moderated; read their later charter. “Hamas affirms that its conflict is with the Zionist project not with the Jews because of their religion. Middle East Eye 2017 Charter in full.
I don't accept claims W/O evidence. Who offered the land; did they own it. The British conquered Palestine, does that make them morally owners? They have the right to give it to whom they please? The destruction of the Zionist entity is legitimate, because it was given to the Zionists by a conquerer. Do you have a recent audio or written record of a Hamas spokesperson that they wish to kill Jews, because of their religion?
bc .... thinks Ad Hominem attacks are a fallacious argument.
p.s. Obviously not offered all the land they wanted, as it didn't include the Zionists' land. AND not what they wanted, but what was theirs.
Selling of Palestinian land by the Ottomans makes as much sense as the Elgin marbles offered to Bruce by the Ottomans. The land offer you state doesn't explain the land taken by the Nakba in '48.
Their purpose of being is to eliminate the Zionist entity. I agree, if the replacement is a secular democratic state, probably not achievable.
However a very liberal Muslim state wherein Jews, Christians, and nones have equal civil rights would be OK.
Please state my delusions.
bc ... doesn't need the respect of an Ad Hominem attacker.
So all Palestinians are Hamas?
Were 10,000 plus dead children a real threat. ?
HAMAS is an armed miliary organization it is like saying All Americans are Marines, but all Palestinians do cheer on HAMAS.
When Video's of HAMAS and Islamic Jihad were streaming into Gaza, on Oct 7th I can well envision Innocent women sitting in front of their TV's and cell phones ulating and innnocent children jumping up and down cheering.
If Hamas is not defeated they will continue to terrorize Israel like they did on October 7th. I’m afraid Israel has very little choice but to fight. Hamas wants to wipe out Israel and I’m afraid this will never change.
How is an ideology defeated? Where have we seen that happen?
Source?
https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp
It is neither moral nor wise, and certainly not "pro-Israel," to pursue tactics that cause a net gain in the amount of hatred that exists toward the country. Just as the US created vastly more people who wished the US harm than it killed in its "War on Terror," Israel can claim any double digit percentage it wants in terms of the amount of Hamas destroyed. It will still pale in comparison to the number of Palestinians and others around the world who now see them as the evil many have always claimed them to be.
It is SO self-destructive for Israel to continue this Netanyahu campaign of ethnic destruction in Gaza {and spilling into the West Bank}.
Netanyahu has been clear that he does not consider Palestinians deserving of a state of their own. This is monstrous, but not out of keeping with his stated intentions to NEVER see an independent Palestinian state.
Israel’s origins, taking Palestinian land does matter. Not in ‘justifying Hamas recent actions,’ but the long karma of what we do coming back to us. Further, Israel has consistently pushed its borders into what Palestine was left with. Israel, acting in a manner like Israelis were treated in pogroms through much of the world, looses its moral authority.
Just as the US karma of killing all Native Americans to steal all they could, bringing in slaves for cruel and commercial gain will backfire on the US, origins & how they are reparated or not, matter.
Israel has been practicing ethnic cleansing for 75 years, practicing apartheid for fifty years, practicing torturing people of an open air jail ( Gaza) for sixteen years. Palestinians have the right to resist with arms. Israel, as occupying power, has zero rights. Israel has been created by ethnically cleansing Palestinians.
Spot on, Nalinaksha.
BS. I take it by your name you are Hindu, first clean your own toilet, The BJP is a racist, muderous party, and remember Guajarat, the massacre of 2,000 Muslims by Hindu nationalists/
Ad hominem.
Apparently you don't understand the phrase ad hominem.
Your comment is analogous to a kid in the school yard sticking out it's tongue and saying "yah, yah, yah"
Wrong!
Vicki, all you say is true.
And the troll farm is out in force tonight.
Amen.
Israel hasn't taken in any land, except in response to it being attacked, and exception being the current conduct of the Orthodox Jewish and Right wing settlers, whose actions are abysmal and unjustified. They are criminals. They shoot and kill Arabs on the west bank, drive them off the land, and because every Israeli is a soldier or reservist, they don uniforms and are supported, often by IDF soldiers, not necessarily the IDF but right wing inclined soldiers.
Now that is a problem, but it doesn't justify Oct 7th. not in the least.
So, there is exceptions. Hmnn. Calling folk Jew haters when you hardly know them, begs ‘who do YOU think YOU are? Gods gift? No more than anyone else.
This topic becomes virulent rather quickly.
The international jurist Professor Emeritus Eric David of Brussels University, deems the IDF a “legitimate target” and asserts that “of course they (stone-throwing Palestinians) are allowed to do that...certainly not only from a jus contra bellum point of view, but also from a jus in bello point of view”. These are the two separate strands of the laws of war; Professor David legitimises stone throwing as protest in the face of military violations from the perspective of both strands.
So where does one draw the line?
"The right of resistance of the Palestinian people is grounded in law, custom and conscience. It is the moral duty of international organisations, governmental or non-governmental, to recognise this right, and aim to facilitate a dialogue which reflects the reality of the situation in the Occupied Territories."
https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/north-africa-west-asia/right-to-resist-in-occupied-palestine-denial-and-suppression/
We weren't talking about stone throwing, you just moved the goal posts.
What part of that is "rubbish?"
1. ethnic cleansing for 75 years?
2. practicing apartheid for fifty years?
3. practicing torturing people of an open air jail ( Gaza) for sixteen years?
Thank you. These things are all documented.
I won't call you an antisemite David , because Arabs claim to be semites, descendants of Shem via Abraham's son Ishmael, but certainly a Jew hater, as you believe any propaganda that casts the Jew in an inhuman light.
Yes it is curious that jews (Sephardic) and Arabs have a common ancestor as shown by their DNAs.
https://www.science.org/content/article/jews-and-arabs-share-recent-ancestry
Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East where women can earn a college degree and be treated with respect. Let’s not forget that!
Neither that entity of the other entity, Iran, are democracies, but, tho. imperfect: "... By 1989, women dominated the entrance examinations for college attendance.[3]"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women%27s_education_in_Iran
Let's no bring up the so called countries in the Arabian peninsula.
I don't believe you.
The old Russian legend of Ilya Muromets, where for every heavenly enemy killed rose two in its place.
Must only put the saddest faces on that ,DZK… True, and devastatingly sad. 😔
Support of Israel for continued military action in Gaza is wrong for multiple reasons, including very bad for US interests. I agree with RR on all except I believe Biden has quite a bit of power he could use with Netanyahu. I'm not sure about the political ramifications domestically if Biden took strong action to rein him in but it's time for bold leadersdhip as Sen Van Hollen stated recently. Israel dependent on our foreign military sales.
Hamas acted with cold-blooded calculation. Netanyahu responded with hot-blooded determination. It was what Hamas hoped he would do.
Solution then. Surrender to Islam? Shariah for all. Quite a catchy phrase huh?
Not really. Israel is hated by the Islamists because it is liberal Western, not so much because they are Jewish. In the U.S., Jews and Muslims mingle harmoniously. The problem is with the radical Islamists in the Middle East who view Israel as Western "colonization" of the region rather than fellow Semites.
And I suspect that thinking is what motivates countries like South Africa. Israel is considered to stand for "Western" values.
John Hardman said: "In the U.S., Jews and Muslims mingle harmoniously."
Well, for the most part. Muslims in the US are targets of white, right-wing evangelicals.
Jews and Muslims mingle harmoniously here. Nobody other than right-wing Evangelical whites get along with themselves. Notice the resemblance between radical Islamists and Evangelicals...
I am going to disagree for the first time with you Professor Reich. You are viewing this horror in a vacuum, as if the horror started on October 7th. Israel was founded on the principles of European white supremacy, colonization, dispossession of the native people's lands, and eradication of the Palestinians' culture as well as their lives. Sure, Hamas committed a terrible act. I would even call them acts of desperation. Can you blame them for committing it? What else can you expect from people when they are being *systematically* annihilated both physically and culturally? What would *you* do if your home was being stolen and your children were being murdered? And this has ben going on for 75 years, supported morally and financially by the western world. Shame on us!
“I would even call them acts of desperation” BS! these were well planned out atrocities against women and children. Rape, mutilation, be-headings and being burned alive!
Obviously not as well planned atrocities as the ones committed by US=Israel!
Why does nobody mention the billions of dollars of „Western“ support on an annual basis for the Palestinians for all those years? Their leaders live and have always lived in luxury. But besides that where does all the money go? It seems there is no oversight on how it is spent or whom it benefits. Why are so many Palestinians despite this financial generosity still living in poverty? Why are their hospitals and schools so primitive and lacking just about everything when there is so much money flowing on a monthly basis? Look at a country like the UAE that takes care of its citizens and leaves none behind with the flow of dollars.
We give 2 million to the Palestinians and then take away 50 Billion in potential GDP by giving 15 billion to Israel to destroy Palestine. See how easy that math is?
Wow. Just wow.
That’s what I say
Every
Day
There's the argument you're making for Hamas and every other Jew hater. Your callousness toward the UN established state of Israel is precisely the kind of hatred which has stymied any real solution. Please take your hatred elsewhere.
I will keep my “hatred” as you call it where I goddamn please, thank you very much!
FINALLY ROBERT! This is still a bit watered down for my liking and it’s coming very late but better late than never? America’s pandering to AIPIC is a large part of the reason so many more lives have been lost in Gaza. Let’s not forget that horrific UN vote America made. Make no mistake, Biden will have a hard time condemning something he is fully funding - weapons for Israel’s indiscriminate use.
Sara what to do about Jew hatred? Period. Especially among the Muslims, in their case it is religious, and it is sanctified by their sacred text.
As regards funding for weapons. I guess the same applies, in your book, for Ukraine.
Any peoples or nations attacked by Muslims or Russians should just roll over and submit, or rollover and die. Is that it?
... but check the use of 'America': the country that attacked Afghanistan in an ill-conceived "War on Terror", went looking for WMD's where they weren't to be found, etc. etc..
(Does it seem possible that the pandering has something to do with our government having been co-opted, e.g. by people who do not speak for the majority of Israelis nor for Jews?)
October 7th blah blah blah. Let’s look at the real problem here, Israel and its land theft, murdering of innocents for decades, the racist apartheid system, and their control of every single aspect of the Palestinian population.
If you think that this issue has a both sides you are mistaken. Zionism has been the biggest problem since day one. You’d have to be seriously deranged and dishonest if you believe anything else.
Zionist says what? I know exactly what I am, a historian who doesn’t adhere to any theological bullshit or propaganda from Zionists.
Sorry Robin but you are not as impartial and as historian as you purport, You exposed yourself with this: "who doesn’t adhere to any theological bullshit or propaganda from Zionists." Your prejudice just oozed out of your pores.
My prejudice? You mean the fact that I don’t believe in fairytales or the “bible” or Old Testament as you people claim? Theological nonsense doesn’t trump facts or archeological evidence. Your bullshit oozes out of your pores if you adhere to Zionism.
Read my response to Donald Hodges. I abhor religion, and I am not a Zionist, you do live in a simplistic world, the George W Bush world.
Zionists consider me an anti semite, FWIW. Muslims consider me an apostate, Christians as The Enemy to be destoryed.
I just don't see the world through simplistic lenses of race, religion or ideology.
You lived in a “country” created by Zionists in 1948. My mother is older than “Israel”. I can guarantee that she has more Levant DNA in her than you and your ancestors do. You’re a colonizer and a joke.
You lived in a country that belonged to other people created by clowns. Balfour declaration was signed for Rothschild $$ to pay off Britain’s war debts. Land they didn’t own to give away. You should go back to school. Clowns like you give Non Zionist Jews a bad name.
75 years of oppression
Exactly. International law says that prisoners cannot be retaliated against for resisting their imprisonment.
And? Who says that they are? Gazans aren't imprisoned, they aren't told what to eat, how to eat, when to sleep, when to get up, they live in an environment of their own choosing.
That they are over populated is the fault of the men, who need sex so badly , that they breed like Rabbits.
79 years of attempts by Arabs to obliterate the only jewish nation in the world. J.D.?
Christians have the American continent and Europe, Orthodox Christians have Russia, Serbia and much of Eastern Europe. Muslims have 57 countries, almost half of Africa, and the Jews are criticized and have been trying to be genocided for 79 years over a tiny sliver of desert in the Levant?
Give me a break.
It hardly matters who the colonizers are. If it were the Netherlands occupying Palestine then the Dutch would be criticized. Unfortunately, for Israel, the introduction of international law was introduced long after all the Eurocentric colonialism you referenced occured.
The Jews are not colonizers, you have bitten into the b.s. of propaganda.
The Jews actually bought the land from the Arabs that lived there, and there were Jews living in the Levant for thousands of years, even during the Ottoman years. They started migrating in the 1920's and bought land from the Arabs., and after WWIII they moved in in droves looking for a safe place to live, and bought the land. That is not colonization.
When the Arabs saw what the Jews had done to a land that they neglected for thousands of years, and by a people whom their own holy books told them were inferior, they tried to evict the Jews in 1948, they failed and the Jews took some land as a buffer, for self protection against an enemy who wanted to obliterate (genocide) them, and they failed, again they tried in 1967, lost more land, again in 1967, lost more land, again in 1973, lost more land (this time the Golan Heights), they never learn, because they are insane with religious wrath, again in 2006, now again in Oct 7th.
To do the same thing again and again expecting different results is insanity.
The Arabs are insane, with religious wrath. It is in their sacred Text and in the HAMAS sovenant.
Accusing Israel of colonization is simply ignorance of the word and the facts, or mouthing Islamic propaganda.
Doesn't explain Nakba.
Cleyet what is to explain about Nakba.
The Arabs tried to obliterate (Genocide) the Jews in 1948, and again in 1956, 1967, 1973 and each time they lost, each time the Jews created a buffer from the land of the people that tried to obliterate them. The Arabs lost, because of their own hatred of Jews caused them to underestimate the Jews,, and call the loss the Nakba or catastrophe.
Nakba my ass. Never would have happened if the Arabs had just accepted the presence of the Jews and their state. Which by the way was not stolen from anyone, but bought.
I thought it was generally agreed that 500 Arab villages were destroyed and about 750 thousand Arabs expelled either directly or in fear. I cannot understand why the Arabs must pay for the evil of others, e.g., Germany. I compare many Israelis to the NAZIs because of the expressions Lebensraum and Über Alles. https://www.haaretz.com/2011-08-26/ty-article/lebensraum-as-a-justification-for-israeli-settlements/0000017f-e6ef-dea7-adff-f7ffc0bd0000 The "Elgin Marbles were bought from the Turks, does that make it legitimate? https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/17/arts/design/parthenon-sculptures-elgin-marbles-negotiations.html#commentsContainer
The Jews who settled in Palestine were Europeans the same as all the other Eurocentric colonizers you referenced above. Many of the settlers who settled the new world were European Jews. Settlers who irradicated the native population.
Yes and no. The Jews who lived in the Levant and many that migrated in the early days were Sephardim., the Askhkenazim came later after WWIII, and Hitlers attempt to kill all the Jews.
When you say European you are talking of a mixture of peoples. For instance some say the irish are Europeans, but they are of Celtic Origin, whereas the Italians are different from the Spanish and the Spanish are different from the Slavs, and the Slavs differ from each other.
I see your simple reductionism of European settlers eradicating the original inhabitants, might be true for the U.S of A, but not true for Israel, but I can understand how a simplistic mind would come to that opinion.
Europe includes Ireland a country historically oppressed by the English. The Spanish were one of the most savage and bloodthirsty colonizer in history. Eurocentric Colonialism is founded on white supremacy which still persists today. However, Israel is an ethnostate while America is not.
Thank you for some fact-based sanity!
Had absolutely nothing to do with colonizing and everything to do with finding a home for a group of people slaughtered during WWII, who couldn't face the countries from which they came. Jews and Palestinians had been living in Palestine for centuries, why wouldn't they be able to share a sparsely populated area? The agression was started after the creation of Israel by the UN, 1947. Palestinians attacked Israel one day before its official creation as a preemptive strike. Should Israel have not fought back then? What about in 1967?
Or, 75 years of Palestinian aggression. There is a reason that belligerent Palestinians have been expelled from Egypt, Jordan, and Lebanon. Where ever they go, they seem to bring militancy and disruption. "Palestine" has never had a functional government since the collapse of the Ottoman Empire. https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/lebanon-palestine-contentious-history-armed-resistance
The oppression of the poor natives of Palestine is an extension of the oppression of poor people everywhere.
They weren't oppressed, they were asked to share a sparsely populated area with Jews. In 1947 there were few living in Palestine. The history is much more complicated.
"... sparsely populated ...", don't think so; in 1948 the density was approx. 77 per square km. Now Israel is 430 and Palestine 930.
From ancient times: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Palestine_(region)
note, the above gives the demographics
recent: https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/countries-by-density note the density of the area in 48 was about the same as Spain presently!
It would make reading claims much easier if the claimant gave references.
Poppy cock, a fallacious bumper sticker, doesn't make it true. Try harder JD
So, are we to believe that Hamas are innocent victims? There is a lot of bloody gray areas involved here over the last century.
Defending the poor and down trodden is commendable. Defending the oppressor is only commendable from a point of view of material profits and power gained from it.
Thank you for that interesting glimpse into naivety. So, the whole world is neatly divided into the "oppressed" and the "oppressors." How neat and tidy...
No, not tidy at all. One often has to choose between their principles and gaining economic power. No one who reaches the higher centers of power does so by being a free thinker. Tow the party line or fail to gain approval.
Amen Amen Amen. Thank you for putting it so clearly. At this point, Biden‘s silence has the potential of derailing his presidency. I know from talking to young Palestinian Americans, that they will not vote for Biden, because he has blood on his hands particularly with children. It’s an oversight that makes me weep. I wish I could look Biden eye to eye And make him see what he is doing. This hurts us all.
What do these young people think they will get from Trump if he is elected? Trump has taken a public position to do nothing for the Palestinians.
they don't think that far. Maybe they will vote for a 3rd party candidate who meets their principles. Such is the unpragmatic idealism of many not just the young.
Biden could stop Netanyahu in his tracks if he, Biden, were willing to stop providing arms and ammunition to him and his IDF’s killing of 125,000 innocent Palestinian men, women, and children. Because he won’t do so Biden is complicit in those genocidal, war crime killings.
125,000? And no Hamas combatants have been killed at all? And none of them are minors?
I differ with you completely. Nothing can be discussed until the hostages are brought home. They are being tortured and raped. NOTHING can stop until then.
What the Israeli government, and especially Netanyahu and his cohort are doing is not achieving the goal of bringing the hostages home. And it is generating dedicated enemies for Israel for the foreseeable future.
Miriam, Hamas will not discuss returning the hostages. Are you reading Haaretz?? Think about your daughter being raped every day and dressed as sex worker clothes like a doll. Think about your son being raped. They must come home and hopefully heal…NOW
I am reading Haaretz...they have been clear that Netanyahu has not prioritized the return of hostages. If he did so, it would accelerate the conclusion of the war.
The end of hostilities would mean Netanyahu would be forced to face judgment on corruption charges. Hostage family members are furious with Netanyahu.
I’m not talking about Netanyahu who face his judgments. Hamas will not let the hostages go.
They reject any logical decent proposal. This last one was perfect, but they do not wish to give up their power. TWO MONTHS CEASE FIRE
I'm sorry, but this is nonsense. Netanyahu has rejected every effort to release the hostages. No one even knows how many hostages have been killed via Israeli bombings. I would suggest you listen to Ezra Klein's recent interview with Tom Friedman.
URL link please.
Netanyahu has rejected…?? I can’t believe you said that. No, not willing to allow how must stay in power and her borders to be compromised. You are correct about that.
So continuing to destroy Gaza and kill innocent Palestinians, mostly women and children is somehow changing their minds? If it were working, I think I would feel differently.
Doing what you're doing gets you what you're getting. Your words are nothing but apology for genocide. You won't say so, but your logic allows for nothing else.
If they are not actively engaged in acts of terror, they are innocent, regardless of whom they support. There are Israeli Jews who call Palestinians animals. Do they deserve to die? Of course not. Do Trump supporters who use inflammatory language deserve to die? Of course not.
BS. They said they would return them when a lasting ceasefire takes place, but BN and his bloodthirsty cronies want Palestine and its people gone, as they openly admit.
And here we have explicit endorsement of genocide.
QFT:
Lisa: "...BN and his bloodthirsty cronies want Palestine and its people gone."
Davidson: "Good for Bibi."
Netanyahu is NOT promoting such a repatriation …
Discussions and entreaties to both sides and negotiations and desperate pleading is going on daily among many parties, not just Hamas and Bibi.
Bibi says “We will not stop destroying Gaza until Hamas releases our hostages.”
Hamas says, “We will not release hostages until Bibi stops destroying Gaza.”
Each side demands, ‘YOU FIRST!!”
How does ANYONE find a road to a solution, given those side-by-side, mutually completely exclusive statements?
To champion one statement without recognizing that the other is also on the table makes NO sense!
Release must be paramount AND stopping the destruction and allowing aid to Gaza must be paramount.
BOTH must be paramount.
But the parties in conflict have put BOTH out of bounds….
There’s the conumdrum wrapped in an enigma.
It was a proposed this past weekend that the bombing stopped for two months if the hostages were returned, and Hamas leaders left.
Netanyahoos goal is not to bring the hostages home but eliminate the HAMAS leadership, the cowardlly leaders hiding in Qatar and Egypt are certainly on the MOSSSAD hit list.
100 or so remaining hostages pales in comparison to Netanyahu’s IDF killing of 125,000 innocent Palestinian civilians. Netanyhu is the same class as Hitler’s murdering Jews and other “undesirables.”
Remember that Hamas terrorist attacked. They took these young people and old people. Citizens from around the world. Imagine if it was your child. JUST IMAGINE
Yes, Hamas did attack. There is no argument. It is morally wrong... it is horrific.
What prompted them to attack?
When I was last in Israel (about 8 years ago) I noticed a change in attitude by the Israelis vis a vis the Palestinians. from previous visits. I noticed a distancing and I observed disdain.
Consider the fact that if a Palestinian son commits a crime, the Israelis bulldoze the parents home. (I'm thinking of American Rachel Corrie who was killed by a bulldozer.) As a mother, if someone were to knock down my home, I would forever rage against those who did so. I would forever tell my younger children that I used to have e.g. a skillet that made better food... but the Israelis destroyed it. Inadvertently my rants would create more angry Palestinian youth.
The only peace making way to go forward is to have more schools like the Quaker school where Israelis and Palestinians learn together. Much needed are more orchestras like the Jerusalem Orchestra East and West in which musicians of Christian, Jewish and Muslim faiths play together.
The first time I went to Israel in 1961, there was no wall around Bethlehem... now there is. And it's tough luck if a farmer's field's are in the way of the wall.
The Balfour Declaration was never been fully implemented... people need security... on both sides.
What prompted them to attack? They don't recognize that Israel has a right to exist and they have always attacked European Jews in the region.
"In 2006 Palestinian legislative elections Hamas won a majority in the Palestinian Legislative Council, prompting the United States and many European countries to cut off all funds to the Hamas and the Palestinian Authority insisting that the Hamas must recognize Israel, renounce violence and accept previous peace pacts. Israel refused to negotiate with Hamas, since Hamas never renounced its beliefs that Israel has no right to exist and that the entire State of Israel is an illegal occupation which must be wiped out. EU countries and the United States threatened an economic boycott if Hamas will not recognize Israel's existence, not renounce terrorism and shall support the peace agreements signed between the PLO and Israel in the past. Hamas officials have openly stated that the organization does not recognize Israel's right to exist, even though the organization expressed openness to hold a long-term truce. Hamas is considered by Israel and 12 other countries to be a terrorist organization and therefore not entitled to participate in formal peace negotiations." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Israeli–Palestinian_conflict
And that is an appropriate response? Seems all it does is create more hatred.
The official figure of dead Gazans is under 30,000, about 1% of the population.
That is pretty disgusting. That reducing people to statistics.
What do those figures have to do with the reality that 30,000 people who were once someone’s child are dead?
Can any person who has lost someone feel better if their enemy lost more?
Is not every human loss TOTAL to the dead person. Is not every human loss DEVASTATING to loved ones?
The losses on both sides are DEVASTATING …
The fighting over there is NOT solving the problem of driving Hamas out of Gaza. The Hamas attack on unsuspecting Israelies did NOT change the government’s policies toward Palestinians.
NEITHER “response” {and both sides say their actions are in response to the other’s actions} is functional or in any way defensible, or in any way promoting an end to the abysmal situation is Israel vis a vis two peoples living on the land.
They have to stop fighting and talk. Just f-ing talk!!!!
I was simply trying to correct Roger Elmore's assertion that 125,000 Gazans were dead without being critical of him. I think it really destroys an argument when it's full of an inaccurate numbers. I think what Israel has done to Gaza is an absolute utter war crime and I hope some Israelis leaders end up in jail.
THE ZONE OF INTEREST. It won the Grand Prix at Cannes and is the Polish entry for the Oscars. It depicts the life of Rudolf Hoss, Commandant of Auschwitz, who paid the ultimate penalty after the war. He and his wife built a dream life for their family in a sprawling house with a beautiful garden right next to the death camp! And were utterly indifferent to the daily massacre next door, even as they could hear the cries of agony and could see the flames shoot up from the incinerator.
I wonder if I will live to see the day Israeli politicians and their generals are punished for the horrendous atrocities they are committing every day.
The number displaced and injured, the numbers dead … It is all so horrible.
What Hamas brought about with its hateful attack in October is horrible beyond description — that attack, and the aftermath. What Israel is doing in retaliation, visiting death and destruction onto millions … unspeakably wrong.
The way people see wrongs done to others is so skewed by emotion and fear —
The “retaliations” — feuds, actually — will only end when a decision is made to STOP.
Then, ways to live together on a small planet need to be found. Driving a people out — or wiping a people out — is not a part of it.
And you support the killing of Palestinians and the destruction of Gaza. But I would never say you are guilty for what you support, only for what you actually do. Wrong support is only thoughtcrime. It's only authoritarian fascists who want to criminalize the 'wrong thought' of others--or justify genocide with it.
West Bank is being attacked on a daily basis
As you are retired do visit the West Bank and see for your self how demeaning IDF (As a matter of policy) makes the life of Palestinians in the WB
I don't disagree. You are probably innocent, unless you buy Israel bonds. Then you are funding the genocide. But since Palestineans on the West Bank are being attacked, it is hard for me to understand your point there.
What the f——!
There are BABIES dying! Are you of the opinion that “nits become lice”?
How can you possibly say that innocents are not dying. Damned fascist rhetoric!
So, nastiness is all you have to offer?
Talk about sniveling … look in the mirror.
{And for the record, I also hold Hamas responsible for using Palestinians as pawns, as though they did not matter. To my mind, it’s of a piece with YOUR attitude., unless you have something to say for yourself that is not just nasty.]
Israel's current actions will do nothing to help the hostages.
Even if it ends Hamas, this is not a solution that will protect Israelis. The little boy whose mother has been killed? In five years, he will be joining with others to attack Israel. The group will just have a different name.
And so on and so on. When does it end? Do you think Israel will wipe out all Muslims? Surely if they wipe out all Gazans there will be other Muslims(and some non-Muslims) who demand retribution. That's how violence works. The only lasting solution is diplomacy and nonviolence.
Don't be so sure.
Killing 25,000 Palestinians is likely to bring them home sooner?
QFT: Davidson: Killing all Palestinians will solve the problem forever.
Are you someone trying to make the Israelis look like monsters? Or are you a monster? No other options.
Yes, war has rules, and they say it is a great wrong to try to destroy a whole people. If it's wrong when others try to do it to Jews, and of course it is, then it is wrong when Jews try to do it to others.
Richard A Davidson said: "Yes. Killing all the Palestinians will solve the problem forever."
Isn't that what the Germans said about the Jews?
Well at least we now know who you are.
Let’s not forget that the Palestinians participated in the atrocities on October 7th! They are not innocent!
That was Hamas, not all Palestinians. Why do you assume they are synonymous?
I don’t, but people don’t seem to realize there were many Palestinians that participated in the atrocities and took civilians hostages on October 7th.
Israel? You stand with Israel? Hardly. You may have sincere fondness for the state of Israel, but if Israel followed your advice it would become a pariah state. If you really stood with Israel you would be trying to help it into a brighter future.
There's zero evidence of that. Stop with the lies. But Netanyahu should have focused on bringing them home as his first priority and then start the genocide. (Bitter laugh.) He literally doesn't care.
Reference please.
I don't think that there are many if any to release.. HAMAS already slaughtered a family, and blame it on the Israelis.
The had instructions when the terrorists left Gaza not to take any infants or young children, as they are too much trouble, especially infants and toddlers, they cry, urinate and defecate in their clothes, have dietary needs, like baby food, medicines and are too much trouble.
There was a mother, a father and a daughter of 10 months that HAMAS claimed was killed by the IDF, I believe that they were killed by HAMAS because the 10 month old was too much, and the parents were killed because they were witnesses.
Citizen Raff - stop making sense
If Israel stopped bombing today Hamas would continue to terrorize Israel, and who even knows if the hostages are even still alive. I would imagine the horrors they are going through they may be better not being alive.
The only logic to Israel’s, that is Netanyahu’s, war on the people of Palestine is vengeance, and keeping Bibi out of jail.
but what Netanyahu has done to Gaza isnt "vengeance". its not even close to parity. US and international law of self defense and all that good stuff.
its clearly and openly a war crime -not opposed but in fact endorsed by the Congressional Duopoly I might add.
Completely agree. I was speaking to the only possible explanation - emotion, namely blind citizen anger. Of course for Netanyahu it's devious manipulation of that anger for his own selfish ends. Straight from the Trump playbook.
I have listened to people closer to the situation there and the estimate is 70% of the civilian deaths are women and children, which would total approximately 17,500 people. And this is an old statistic, but 3 out of every 100 Palestinians have suffered bombing related injuries. Israel's military has become its own evil machine, and often the politicians are told lies by the military (Pappe's "The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine" offers some perspective). Not only does Israel appear to be enacting some sort of horrific retribution, but it seems to be inextricably tied to wreaking vengeance for the horrible atrocities of The Holocaust.
They are beyond out-of-control, and must be condemned for these continuing war crimes. Make no mistake, the IDF are becoming expert war criminals.
They are going far beyond what is needed to punish Hamas. The hostages matter too
The problem is they have hardly at all managed to punish Hamas and done a spectacular job punishing Palestinian women and children.
There is no military solution to eliminate Hamas! Killing 1000 innocent civilians for every 10 Hamas fighters, will only strengthen Hamas in the future. When 3 to of 10 orphaned and traumatized teenagers and children will join Hamas2.0. The best way to eradicate Hamas, is by eliminating their recruitment arguments! Stop the occupation, stop the oppression, stop the ethnic cleansing, stop apartheid, stop the the Genocide!
US aid to Israel needed to be stopped months ago. This isn’t defense anymore. It’s revenge.
But Biden twice fast tracked deadly weapons - not helpless - and really appalling.
Israel has persistently blocked and slowed humanitarian aid from reaching Gaza, in addition to its relentless bombing of areas that it has told Palestinians to go to as safe areas. It has killed quickly by bombing and slowly by starvation and disease. It has also detained and tortured thousands of Palestinian civilians: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/01/23/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-palestinian-detainees.html?
Biden's policy has been to provide Israel with all the bombs it could want, courtesy of us taxpayers, and then politely ask Israel to refrain from its relentless bombing of Gaza. Biden has treated Israelis as human beings like him, but Palestinians as merely a problem to be dealt with, dehumanizing them. Netanyahu laughs in Biden's face because he knows the U.S. will never lift a finger to hold him to account.
I don't want my tax money paying for this. As I see it, Biden could end the war in Gaza expeditiously by supporting a U.N. ceasefire resolution and by refusing to provide more weapons of aggression.