Today is Passover. Go Down Moses. Herer's what I got from J Street.
Daniel,
“On Passover, we're supposed to imagine ourselves coming out of Egypt,” Noam Peri, the daughter of 80-year-old hostage Chaim Peri said last week, “Now we must imagine ourselves, or our 80-year-old fathers, as captives in Gaza.”
I’m a secular Israeli kibbutznik, culturally Jewish. But this year, like so many others, I'm finding deeper meaning in the symbolism of Passover.
Almost every day since October 7, I’ve volunteered with the Hostage Family’s Forum headquarters here in Israel. I have friends who were killed or taken hostage, and I am committed to doing everything in my power to return each and every hostage to their family’s arms.
This Passover will be uniquely painful for those I have worked with. Chairs left empty at the seder table for the very first time. The absence of a brother’s laugh, a daughter’s jokes, a parent’s embrace.
At our seders, we not only remember and recall the story of the Israelites held captive in Egypt and the Exodus, but we re-enact it. We celebrate hard-earned freedom and re-learn the values of compassion and empathy, even for our enemies. We are called upon not to forget the pain of oppression and suffering, and our calling to build a better future.
But while over 130 people remain held hostage in Gaza – and with time running out as dozens are reported to have died – many Jews in Israel and around the world feel that we cannot celebrate that freedom. For many of us too, a family feast of celebration strikes a discordant note while so many families in both Israel and Gaza endure unfathomable grief.
As we gather for the holiday, many of us will leave empty seats at our tables, keeping the hostages vividly in our minds. A reminder that the struggle for freedom is not over. Together, we will draw strength from Moses’ persistent, brave demand of the Pharaoh: “Let my people go!”
Today, on behalf of J Street, I reiterate the call we have made for more than six months now: For the immediate, unconditional release of all those held captive.
There can be no excuse for the crime of hostage-taking. For the relentless pain and anguish Hamas has inflicted on so many families. We will never cease to demand loudly and clearly: Let our people go.
J Street continues to urge American and global leaders to exert firm pressure on all parties involved to reach an urgent deal that reunites families with their loved ones and ends the devastation in Gaza. Currently, this means demanding that countries such as Qatar, Egypt and others with influence on Hamas exert all possible leverage to press them toward compromise.
As hostage families repeatedly tell anyone who will listen: Time is running out.
At this stage, only a negotiated ceasefire can bring freedom for the hostages, end the devastation and allow life-saving aid to safely reach families in Gaza. Longer term, we must work to isolate and disempower Hamas, including by charting a peaceful, diplomatic path toward resolving this conflict once and for all, and ensuring the horrors of October 7 and the ensuing war can never be repeated.
Just as I feel deep empathy with the suffering of hostages, I also share in the pain of families in Gaza struggling to survive – a people hoping to one day achieve their own freedom and self-determination. As the Passover story teaches us, no people should be denied that right.
On behalf of all of us at J Street, I wish you a meaningful Passover. May we draw strength from one another. May we share in our collective pursuit of freedom, safety and security for all Israelis and Palestinians.
I read a column by Gershon Baskin today saying his insider information is that there are no realistic issues on the table to get the hostages freed without demolishing Hamas in Gaza, which is what all the bombing has been about for six months, and still not done. He said the hostages are NOT on Netanyahu’s agenda. Only demolishing Hamas.
I am not there. I cannot say. I can only see what is to be seen, and I can only hope that SOMEONE is talking to SOMEONE about ending this, for the sake of everyone who is suffering and losing and dying.
For the sake of the humanity that is suffering … to end this …
As regards he hostages, I fear that they are all dead, and that is the primary reason HAMAS will not negotiate. An empty hand has nothing to give. And HAMAS will of course blame their deaths on Israeli bombing
That simply isn't true. Hamas has been the ones refusing concessions in the latest round of talks in Qatar. With regard to past negotiations between Palestinian representatives and Israeli counterparts, Palestinian reps have consistently refused agreements. (Please look up the history of relevant peace talks, especially the Camp David Summit.)
In each and every “deal” Israel has demanded more land. Each deal has been unfair to the Palestinians. Hamas is asking for the following now:
We.. reaffirm our adherence to our demands and the national demands of our people; with a permanent ceasefire, the withdrawal of the occupation army from the entire Gaza Strip, the return of the displaced to their areas and places of residence, intensification of the entry of relief and aid, and the start of reconstruction," the Islamist faction said.
These are reasonable requests. Israel refuses to offer a reasonable deal
Hamas WAS a legitimate government of Gaza, with full control, and billions of dollars of support from the UNWRA and others. There was no Israeli presence in Gaza at all.
After Oct 7th, they don't get to be in charge of Palestine anymore.
They're openly genocidal murderous maniacs. How is this debatable?
How do you not see this?
Supporting Hamas is saying that you think Jewish Israeli children deserve to be dismembered in their beds for the crime of being born within the boundaries of Israel proper, their ancestral homeland, where they have lived for generations.
How the fuck does that make sense?
No, Hamas has to go. And if they are so righteous, why haven't they used their billions to build bomb shelters for their people? Why are the leaders billionaires who live in Qatar?
Why do they operate out of crowded civilian areas?
Because they are deeply evil, very well funded, and very skilled and manipulating gullible fools.
I understand that with the information you have that you think it’s impossible to have a different opinion, but you have been purposefully misinformed to protect a colonial project that enables western imperialism.
I find it similar to what British, then Americans, did to the Native Americans. The Native Americans were here first. When there were just a few British coming, struggling to survive, there were Native nations who would help. But the British, then Americans believed they has rights to land that wasn’t theirs. If the Native Americans fought back to protect themselves or their land, they were considered “evil.” The propaganda told to early Americans dehumanized Native Americans, like what is being done to the Palestinians. We pushed Native Americans into reservations, like what has been done to Palestinians. We attempted to kill them all repeatedly, just like Israel has done to the Palestinians. If you think the powers that be back the. Didn’t spread racist information about the Native Americans, your missing a lot of information on that era of history.
Supporting Hamas doesn’t equal believing Israeli children should be murdered. The stories about beheaded babies and mass rapes have been proven false. Hamas’s targets were originally just military. And witnesses who lived in the kibitz have said many times that the IDF killed hostages with crossfire and eventually a missile from a tank. Much of the destruction in the festival area was done by and IDF helicopter who was confused on who Hamas was and wasn’t. There is certain damage that Hamas just did not have the firepower to do.
Everything, and I mean EVERYTHING, Israel blames Palestinians for, it’s actually Israel who has done it to the Palestinians. Israel has beaten, tortured, and killed WAY MORE people than the Palestinians ever have. The true evil is Israel.
Now, I will not continue responding to you because you have be incredibly hostile and rude, but here are some resources if you want to actually know the truth:
1) This guy’s father was an important general in Israel and his grandfather signed the Israeli Declaration of Independence:
4) This is a left-leaning newspaper in Israel. They also published a military report that examined what happened on October 7th and how the IDF were responsible for killing at least some of the innocent victims. You have to be a member to read the below article, but the title and blurb say enough. BTW these were peaceful protests on the Palestinians part.
HAMAS’ attack was monstrous, but to claim there was somehow NO Israeli “presence” in Gaza at all — you can’t be serious? Israel controlled finance and access in and out, completely.
What HAMAS unleashed on innocents in October is not defensible, but Israel cannot say they have been treating Palestinians with respect. That is laughable. Pat offers have included the continued presence of “Settlments” and private Israeli roads cutting through th West Bank, as well as loss of access to parts of Jerusalem as their capitol, and never full control of Gaza.
They didn't FINANCE them. It's that knowingly Netanyahu LET Qatar, the UNWRA, and others fund them. He let them grow under his watch, thinking the world would see the barbaric terrorism and prefer Israel, whereas the PLO was more reasonable and likable.
Little did he know how much the West is excited for jihad!
I fear for America. It's already really bad in Europe. Teachers have been beheaded for showing a drawing of Mohammad in a college class on Free Speech in France. And I bet you think that's justified.
Palestinians are only "suffering" because Israel is killing them indiscriminately without military or any other reason. Karma has a way to working itself out. Israel will reap what it sows.
It's not even disproportionate. The civilian to combatants ratio has proven to have been the similar or better than previous wars like Iraq and Afghanistan.
I fail to see how Gaza is "peaceful." We are seeing before our eyes Israel, with all the military might it has, beat up and kill civilians who are unarmed, in hospitals, in the public fetching humanitarian aid, fleeing barrages from Israel, or living their own lives. Israel doesn't get any worse. It will have a lot of karma to answer for.
Just watch the news. Last night NBC showed a woman in a hospital in Gaza going to give birth. There were doctors, nurses attending, the power was on. On Okinawa during the assault and invasion by the US forces, there was no anything - civilians tried take refuge in caves. Many were killed by Japanese soldiers - or used as human shields in the caves. The island was left as a 'cratered moonscape - subject to millions of artillery shells and rockets.
At least 125,000 civilians died.
Berlin when the Red Army attacked Berlin, the situation was similar. The Red Army launched an overwhelming artillery and Katuskha rocket barrage from high ground. There were no women going to give birth at hospitals.
To you understand the difference?
I know Robert says there is an alternative to rooting out Hamas - but:
Religion. In the name of religion the country and government of Israel exist--or maybe that's not true. Maybe people in Israel want peace for everyone and to work together, as people--which everyone has in common. "Belief" is just weird. Why set one's group aside, above, as if under a golden beam and say, We're right because God favours us"? Crossing a border to provide service as your job should not take several hours (every job is a service)--I mean, it's moot now but that was BEFORE the guards (all dead now) informed home Intelligence that the natives were obviously restless and something was coming. Hamas is evil. A pot on boil, and anticipated young strong forcibly idle people wouldn't go nuts. God has no favourites. God cares about everyone equally, or there is none. We all bleed red. Israel (etc.) has to find another way to be a country. God favours no one, particularly anybody that scorns anybody, as if self-confidence in magic or stories makes an individual more than human, pretending God prefers grumpy-guts finger-pointing. Dump religion as if there were one. Be who you are, enjoy traditions that don't cost others, just by being yours. Be who you are, providing for people to work and join (membership is a motivator), to be together, a civilized society. I just don't get it.
It's the opposite. Israel was founded by secular people. Israel exists to be a safe space for Jews, because Jews are a small ethnic group that is historically hated, target, and abused, and has never been safe living in an Islamic state.
Israel has freedom of religion and equal rights for all. It has Muslim and Christian citizens.
The Arab Muslims, on the other hand, are obsessed with destroying Israel, for religious reasons. The prophet Mohammad hated Jews. "If a Jew falls into you hands, kill him" is a quote from the Quran. There's a story where he kills a village of 700 Jews, except for a woman he keeps as a wife. He also tells believers in a popular Haddith that the Muslims must fight the "children of Israel" to the death, until every last one is dead, and this must happen before judgement day.
I wish I was wrong, but that's literally in there. They all know it. It's definitely a factor in all of this. That's why the entire Muslim world is united against Israel, but not against China or Burma committing literal genocide against Muslim populations.
It’s not “the opposite”; it’s the same. Not that “tolerance-breeds-tolerance,” but to make it socially unacceptable to defer to the Quran or the Bible to tell you “who” these current people are.
I am not siding with fighters, haters, killers, xenophobes, no matter who they are—and no one does. Those-type venomous people are in a dust-ball of their own thoughts. Don’t get sucked into being one.
Dump the old texts, none are relevant to good government. “It says in the Quran,” about hate and murder, so you hate-them-back. Eye-roll. To grow-up and shut-up about who to hate and target, and recognize new philosophers, new thoughts and writing, good government, supportive civilized society. Everyone desires peace.
Dragged down by history, throw out old notions of superiority and press for requirement “they,” whoever, do too. Don’t say “God guides me to kill them.” We may feel that way but we live to get-along.
Jews had been migrating back to Israel starting in the 19th century. They immigrated legally (into the Ottoman Empire. By around 1880, Jerusalem was majority Jewish. No one plopped the Jews there - that is so off base. (Putting on my politeness hat here.)
It took SEVERAL HOURS to come to agreement that discrimination based on religion and ethnicity, murder, kidnapping, and genocide are morally despicable and wrong?
Remember J Scott these are college students, and while very intelligent they are still as emotionally erratic as juniors and seniors in high school. Being able to discuss such morality a right or wrong unemotionally comes with age and experience (and sometimes never, sigh)
Fay, I dunno…my 19 year old son can discuss these matters quite calmly, while my 50-something BFF, whose family belongs to the Tree of Life Synagogue in Pittsburgh, cannot consider anything but a pro-Israel POV. Of course I give her a well-deserved pass, but I would like to be able to re-post this on FB, and really can’t without upsetting her. My point is that I don’t think age is a big indicator; perhaps life experience and cultural background carry more weight.
There was a cease fire. Hamas broke it. Hamas is not interested in negotiating. There are interested in obliterating Israel the state and Judaism the religion. Just because Hamas could not succeed in their goal does not make them the victim. Israel has been dealing with "October 7ths" over and over again for over 75 years. October 7th 2023 itself was the worst.
Israel says ENOUGH!
It's time to make certain that never happens again. Hamas does not get a good faith "Mulligan" like the PLO got for decades only to have them resume their ultimate goal, the destruction of Israel, at a later time under a different name.
To call this a holocaust and Israel the perpetrators shows how ignorant these college students are. They have no knowledge of the history. No knowledge of the peace Israel offered to the PLO just to have them walk away because they didn't get everything they wanted which was ALL of Jerusalem.
Hamas using their own people as human shields is for them to own, not Israel.
"Israel says ENOUGH"? "... time to make certain that never happens again." What do you propose? Hamas is nuts, but red-faced Israel got embarrassed when they failed to listen to their own Intelligence reports. "... their ultimate goal, the destruction of Israel," for God's sake, listen to yourself--it's FUNNY if it weren't so SERIOUS--can't you see?, Israel's goal (political-pill Netanyahu's anyway) is obliterating all Palestinian people. There's an ECHO in here, you figure Netanyahu is nothing but a Hamas with a different rag in his pocket, red team blue team. Get over yourself.
Enough--as in enough of letting Hamas get away with killing people. Hamas leaders still think October 7th was a big success. They don't even care about the deaths of Palestinians.
Complain to the Egyptian government. There is a perfectly good gate from Gaza into Egypt for refugees to escape through. The Egyptians just won't let the Palestinians out, but that's OK, because they are also Arabs, so no one says anything.
I might also point out that if you vote for murderers, you may well have to pay with your own death. Plenty of Israelis already paid for Netanyahu's failures with their own deaths. It's not so surprising that the same has happened to Hamas supporters. It's the children, who had no vote, that I feel sorry for, particularly the ones Hams beheaded or burned to death.
The ceasefire was scheduled for a week or two, if I remember correctly, and then Israel started bombing again. So technically Israel broke the ceasefire.
You are looking at history only through Jewish/Israeli eyes. When Israel was established, far from going to "a land without a people for a people without a land", European Jews were settling in an area that had hundreds of thousands of people who had no say in the confiscation of their lands and homes to create Israel, never received compensation, and had nothing to do with the Holocaust. Over 750,000 people were driven from their homes, 15,000 murdered and 500 Palestinian villages destroyed. Fast forward to more recent times and you find the 17 year siege of Gaza, repeated Israeli attacks on Gaza (2009, 2013, 2018) which Israel euphemistically refers to as "mowing the lawn", the crushing of peaceful protests in 2018 with live ammunition, and the formal establishment of Israel as a Jewish supremacist state (2018) with everybody else second class citizens. Israel regularly drives Palestinians both in Gaza and the West Bank from their homes and steals their land, burns their crops, imprisons them indefinitely without charges or trial, subjects them to 600 checkpoints all over Gaza, controls what enters and leaves Gaza.
Who is the oppressor here and who is the victim?
Why would Hamas try using its own people as human shields? You think that would stop Israel? Israeli snipers have killed children aged 3 and up, ambulance drivers, and women waving white flags.
I was referring to the ceasefire that was broken on October 7th by Hamas.
"You are looking at history only through Jewish/Israeli eyes. When Israel was established, far from going to "a land without a people for a people without a land",
First, Jews have been in that part of the world for thousands of years.
Second, You want to talk about who owned the area? The Jews were Israel going back to Abraham. They were driven out. The Ottoman Empire also ruled that land at one time. The Romans. But, if you want to talk original ownership? The Jews.
Third, You make it sound like the Jews just showed up on May Day 1945.
From Wikipedia under "History of Zionism."
"Biblical precedents
The precedence for Jews to return to their ancestral homeland, motivated by strong divine intervention, first appears in the Torah, and thus later adopted in the Christian Old Testament. After Jacob and his sons had gone down to Egypt to escape a drought, they were enslaved and became a nation. Later, as commanded by God, Moses went before Pharaoh, demanded, "Let my people go!" and foretold severe consequences, if this was not done. Torah describes the story of the plagues and the Exodus from Egypt, which is estimated at about 1400 BCE, and the beginning of the journey of the Jewish People toward the Land of Israel. These are celebrated annually during Passover, and the Passover meal traditionally ends with the words "Next Year in Jerusalem."[4][5][6][7]
The theme of return to their traditional homeland came up again after the Babylonians conquered Judea in 587 BCE and the Judeans were exiled to Babylon. In the book of Psalms (Psalm 137), Jews lamented their exile while Prophets like Ezekiel foresaw their return. The Bible recounts how, in 538 BCE Cyrus the Great of Persia conquered Babylon and issued a proclamation granting the people of Judah their freedom. 50,000 Judeans, led by Zerubbabel returned. A second group of 5000, led by Ezra and Nehemiah, returned to Judea in 456 BCE.[8][9][10]"
That land has been occupied by many different peoples over the centuries. I don't see how any one group can claim it as their own. The Palestinians have been in that part of the world for centuries. Actually all the people living there, Arabs, Jews, etc. got along well and lived in relative peace and harmony until the Zionists came along in the late 19th century.
Using religion and a god to try to justify what you want and do is fraught with difficulties. Not everybody recognizes the Jewish god, including Muslim Palestinians (they have their own god), and therefore can't be expected to adhere to the Jewish god's dictums.
I think you deliberately missed my point about Hamas and its so called use of human shields as Israel indiscriminately kills any and all Palestinians so there are no such things as human shields.
Hamas exists because Israel has been committing gut wrenchingly barbarous acts against innocent Palestinians for the past 75 years. Israel has been declared an apartheid state by Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, and smaller groups like the American Friends Service Committee (Quakers) and B'Tselem, and Israeli human rights group.
If they could all come to an agreement that both sides are not completely happy with that might work out, because face it not everyone will be happy no matter what.
That's what they've had for 75 years. Unfortunately, many excellent compromises have been offered by the Israelis through the years that were rebuffed immediately because unless the PLO and the layer Arab organization, Hamas, got EVERYTHING they wanted there was no peace. Unfortunately what they want is the total inhilation of the Jews.
College students are idiots. I was going to college on a bootstrap commissioning program during the Viet Nam war, and a group of students were conspiring to have a Kent State, at our university. They tried to take over a meeting of the board, but led by a bearded, sandal wearing statistics professor, who was against the war himself, but was vehement in not wanting the university to become a spectacle much less another Kent State, so he gathered up a few of us students opposed to the idiocy and we stopped the protest in it's tracks. They could fight the "man" but they couldn't fight their peers.
One dude went on top of the tower, and claimed that he would rather die than give in, and I grabbed him by the collar dragged him to the parapet and gave him the chance, he quickly backed up.
What I learned is that these were a bunch of spoiled rich brats, attention seekers, looking for fame and relevancy.
Wow, and over fifty years later, you're still mired in that kind of preposterous stereotyping? "Idiots," LOL - William, I can walk OUTSIDE MY APT. BUILDIING and since I am mere blocks from one of the largest urban campuses on the planet, assemble in the adjacent neighborhoods or on the campus itself, or inside local busnesses, example after example of students 18-22 years old, NOT `SPOILED '- they're working their way through the U. of Minnesota -Twin Cities* - NOT "rich," many are in debt with student loans, of course! , - NOT `attention seekers,' that's likely a "spotlight fallacy" based on online social media sites and people posting videos of their cat chasing away a huge dog or themselves eating some snack food on a dare, etc - ditto the rest of what sounds like an embittered old man with a dubious anecdote that proves absolutely nothing.
Do you see now?
EDIT: Plus AUGSBURG UNIVERSITY*, practically "on" the West Bank U. Campus / Cedar-Riverside { WB/CR = One of Dylan's haunts, years later people like Joe Strummer and of course BONNIE RAITT were around}, MCTC** [Minneapolis Community & Technical College, my long-time GF graduated from there, working class roots & in the cc equivalent of Phi Beta Kappa with her 4.0 GPA, certainly not "spoiled" [except by ME in a loving way!] who has worked last 11 years PT at Sojourner i.e., (battered and /or abused women's & children's shelter in West Metro), plenty of students like her around here, too!...
*Augsburg University is a private university in Minneapolis, Minnesota. It is affiliated with the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America. It was founded in 1869 as a Norwegian-American Lutheran seminary known as Augsburg Seminarium. Today, the university enrolls approximately 3,000 undergraduate and 800 graduate students. Augsburg is known for its emphasis on service learning; volunteering in the community is both an instructional strategy and a required part of a student's coursework. {Nota bene, there are "evangelicals," and then there are "evangelicals," just like all of these labels, they fail miserably at capturing, nuance, subtle and glaring distinctions, intra-organizational disputes, feuds, sects, sectarianism, splits, reformings, the works!}
The on-campus diversity is enhanced by Augsburg's location in Cedar-Riverside, the Twin Cities' most culturally diverse neighborhood, which has the nation's largest concentration of Somali immigrants. One of the largest urban Native American populations is within one mile. Augsburg is also in the heart of a major theater center. The university has been designated as a Minnesota Indian Teacher Training Program site. Augsburg maintains a relationship with the United International College, in southern China.[19]
Campus organizations
Augsburg students have opportunities for involvement in more than 50 clubs and organizations, including student academic societies, publications, student government, Augsburg Business Organization, Augsburg Asian Student Association, Campus Ministry, Augsburg University Pre-law Society, Pan-Afrikan and Pan-Asian Student Union, forensics, cheer-leading, Amnesty International, Intertribal Student Union and the Hispanic/Latino Student Association.
Minneapolis College (formerly Minneapolis Community and Technical College) is a public community college in Minneapolis, Minnesota. It has one of the most diverse student populations in the state and enrolls nearly 11,100 credit students annually.[1] Minneapolis College is part of Minnesota State, which offers two-year associate degrees, certificates, and diplomas.[2]
Academics
Minneapolis College offers more than 100 career and occupational programs in aviation, business, education, health, information technology, justice system, manufacturing and construction, media arts, public service and the service industry. The college also has many clubs and societies, including a school newspaper. Minneapolis College has an Aviation Technician program at MSP airport, a Center for Criminal Justice in Saint Paul, and a Health Careers Institute in Minneapolis's Phillips neighborhood.
The thing of it is, all of these students also watched and/or participated and maybe learned quite a bit from being here as a kind of "Ground Zero" for the May 25, 2020 extrajudicial police killing of George Floyd and the following several weeks and months of massive protests and social unrest, including of course the arson, looting, police overreaction (cost the City of Minneapolis millions to settle the lawsuits already) and more that readers of a blog like this can likely supply from their own life experience and education, etc.
Just piling on, I am, to emphasize just how ludicrous the stereotyping of the youth is, our own future no less, sacre bleu mon vieux, c'est incroyable!
Not entire generations. Just spoiled college students--who BTW have no problem stereotyping the baby boomers and openly wishing they would hurry up and die, so they could have their homes & possessions.
I guess I had an advantage over you William, I started college at age 31. Didn't start teaching full time until age 40 and finished my MA at age 44. I found college kids to be highly intelligent, a bit more emotional than me but great thinkers. Of course, I also had the advantage of being a liberal progressive and I attended a publicly owned University so fewer rich kids.
It's the ones who make it impossible for other students to be safe and attend school that should be expelled and banned from private property. Those who scream "Death To America!" and "Death to All Jews!" should be arrested and removed. Death threats are felonies.
"a Kent State"? You mean they were hoping to get shot by panicked National Guardsmen? I doubt it.
I was part of the anti-Vietnam War movement, and I don't remember anyone wanting to get killed. Few, if any of us, were "spoiled rich brats"; they tended to join the fraternities and sororities and have drunken beer parties instead of caring about their country. I was the first in my family to go to university, and I couldn't have done so if the children of disabled veterans in Indiana had to pay tuition.
So you were afraid of a "spectacle" at your university but not the least bothered about napalming children. Tells me all I need to know about you.
I wondered what William meant by a “Kent State,” as well. A demonstration? The National Guard shooting was a monstrous aberration — NEVER should have happened, using weapons on our own kids who were demonstrating.
I’m all for demonstrating. Not rioting. Not getting shot. But gathering and making voices heard.
How far does "anti-war" go? Do you deny your own right to defend yourself if attacked? Should the Ukrainians just let the Russians kill them all for the sake of "peace"? As in the peace of the graveyard. As for "spoiled rich brats"--if you were too poor to go to college, you would have been drafted with no choice. So, yes you were rich and privileged enough to afford college and get a deferment.
Dearie, I'm a woman. Women didn't get drafted (which actually pissed me off as I felt it made people take women's opposition to the war less seriously than men's as our lives were not on the line).
They don't think that far Maureen, it is somebody else that gets killed. I remember when I was invincible and the fates took care of me. They just wanted the university to go down as part of the movement, and of course they would be proclaimed hero's and martyrs
I really don't care what you know or think you know. People who try to see high on the horse, are a freaking bore.
Hypocrites with a false sense of moral superiority.
I've been to Lai Khe, where that photo of the girl running naked down the street was taken
It was up the road about 3 clicks from Quan Loi.
The Air force didn't go around willy nilly fire bombing villages and towns either
There was a lot wrong with that war, and the needless death of 50,000 Americans and a million Vietnamese, but most were combatants, and I've seen the carnage wrought on Americans and Vietnamese.
However I have no use for the phony bleeding hearts
"That girl running," is a Canadian. Hm, "People who try to see high on the horse, are a freaking bore. Hypocrites with a false sense of moral superiority." Describes anyone telling anyone "How it is." Or, "How it was."
"The image is of 9-year-old Phan Thi Kim Phuc, Vietnamese girl, fleeing her small village, Trang Bang, where Viet Cong were hiding, June 8, 1972. The village was torched by napalm dropped by South Vietnamese Air Force Skyraider. Kim Phuc is now a Canadian, lives in Ajax, ON Canada. Aug 26, 2023"
Photographer, born 1951, full name Huynh Cong Ut, "Nick Ut’s photo of Kim Phuc was a transformative moment in a horrible conflict." "I saw her skin coming off and I stopped taking pictures. I didn’t want her to die. I put my cameras down on the road. We poured water over this young girl. She kept yelling “nóng quá” (Too hot). We were all in shock." "All the film was developed in about 10 minutes. Associated Press, Southeast Asia, Ishizaki Jackson, an editor, looked at the pictures and asked, “Nicky, why is the girl naked?” I said because she was on fire from the napalm bombs. He heard that and clipped one negative and printed a 5 x 7 of it. The editor on the desk was Carl Robinson. “Oh no, sorry. I don’t think we can use this picture in America.” "At the time, [the South Vietnamese military] didn’t know who I was or that I took the picture of Kim Phuc. They got in a lot of trouble. The American military complained: “Why did you let photographers take that picture?”
"Outside Kim Phuc’s house there were so many Viet Cong and North Vietnamese troops. When the bombing was over, they found their bodies everywhere. They dropped the bombs in exactly the right place. It was not an accident. They didn’t know civilians had been taking refuge in the Cao Dai temple. Before they dropped the napalm, the South Vietnamese army soldiers threw yellow smoke grenades to mark the target near the temple."
"After her picture came out in newspapers, doctors from around the world volunteered to help her." "Kim was in the hospital for a year." "I met Kim for the first time after the war in 1989, in Cuba, where she had gone to study medicine. Her boyfriend Bui Huy Toan was there. He was from Haiphong. Kim told me, “Uncle Nick, I think I’m going to marry him but I don’t think my father will like him because he’s from the North.” But [her father] loved him so much because he takes such good care of Kim."
"When Kim and Toan got married in Cuba, they had no money but people from Cuba and Communist embassies there gave money so they could go on a honeymoon. They went to Moscow in 1992, and on the way back, during a refueling stop in Newfoundland, they asked for political asylum in Canada, which they got. They moved to Toronto. They had two boys. She travelled the world as a Goodwill Ambassador for the U.N." "She’s still in a lot of pain. It’s so lucky that she was photographed. If not, she would have died."
I feel so deeply sad about what you shared and what you saw! I want us to stop killing each other! and I want you to carry peace in your heart--If only I knew what to tell you. I hope t hat love will somehow heal you and the pain that you remember.
“The Air Force didn’t go around willy nilly fire bombing villages and towns…”
William! Stop! So, they didn’t do it “willy nilly,” you somehow think that makes what Richard Nixon DID do OK? You think the massive application of defoliant was OK? You think the napalming that WAS done was OK? You think bombing neighboring countries on the sneak was OK?
NOTHING about that war, after 1968, when the Republicans scuttled the Peace Talks — NOTHING about that war was in any way, shape, or form OK, as Nixon prosecuted it. {We should not have assumed responsibility for it in the first place, after France shafted Ho Chi Minh following WWII, but that’s another whole discussion.}
If you are taking criticism of our soldiers personally, don’t assume I’m anti-Vietnam veteran, because I’m not. We sent a contingent of soldiers over there whose average age was f-ing 19 years old! The average age of soldiers in WWII was 26.
For Vietnam, Nixon grabbed children, shoved them over to a part of the world that presented MASSIVE culture and environmental shock, put them against an “enemy” who appeared to them identical to “friendlies,” and then brought them home, emotional fractured and hurt, and dumped them back on the streets with no decompression or help re-entering OUR culture and environment.
THIS bleeding heart liberal thinks that whole time was a massive abomination, and the kind of people who foisted it on us {heartless Republicans, as opposed to Republicans who DO have hearts, but they are currently in short supply} are trying to take over again now.
I think our youth today don’t know history. Neither do enough old people know it. They think of the sixties as “sex, drugs and rock-n-roll,” and demonstrations and riots.
Lots of people think that’s what was going on back then. People don’t know the history behind the headlines.
{I might be off topic here, but that’s where this went …}
Well Pat if you google the wall, in the area for Sep 1967, you will find the names of ,my team, Tailpipe Charley, Team 3.The reason my name is not on that wall is that I was sick and didn't go out on the mission, so I was replaced.
And no Vietnamese villages weren't willy nilly bombed, there was intel and there was good intel for targeting. I had been to Lai Khe, as I said 3 clicks up the road from Quan Loi. ran through there on a Long Range Patrol.
Napalm is an awful weapon but it is only used on concentrations of the enemy.
I wasn't at Khe Sanh, but a lot of my team mates were. Napalm saved their asses.
The troops had no choice as to where they were deployed, and what it took to save their lives and achieve the mission was very much appreciated, otherwise there would have been a lot more body bags.
I am not going to rehash the VN war, it was not justified, and the bullshit about domino's was just that bullshit. In fact it was the Communists that stopped China, and it as the Communist Vietnamese army that stopped Pol Pot and his murderers.
The Vietnamese were not ideologically motivated, they were fighting for their country, against exploitating French. Ho Chi Minh needed material support, weapons, cannons, munitions and of course he was offered them by the Chinese and Russians. Ergo he was a "communist".
So much for Communist Vietnam, you can buy a McDonalds burger of a KFC in Saigan, Ho Chi Minh City..
Exxon has the sole source contract to pump to exploit the oil fields in the Bay of Tonkin.
It is no coincidence that Navy pilots were instructed to unload their unexpended bombs in a special zone, where they are coincidentally drilling for oil now. seismic detectors are used to identify oil fields.
I lived in Ap chien Luoc khom nam, Strategic Hamlet#5, spoke and read enough Vietnamese to make friends and save my life, twice, Once in Dalat and the second time on the night o the Tet Offensive, That is a war story and a half.
I lived with Trunsi Khan and his family (Sgt Khan), the Hamlet chief, and Trunsi Khan played both sides for survival. I knew who in the neighborhood was VC, all of them, for survival.
And I knew who had sons out in the field, VC, fighting the Americans. Even the VC didn't touch me.I respected the people, and they in turn respected me.
I will tell you this though, the employment of napalm and 500 lb bombs, saved a lot of American lives, including my team mates and friends.
War is a bitch, did you know that more French died from American artillery and bombs, than German.
We, the world, western civilization, is so fortunate that there were no campus idiots, no bleeding heart liberals, during WWII, if not we might be doing our own Seig Heils to an American Fuhrer, on the east side of the Mississippi, and bowing to the Emperor west of the Mississippi.
Instead we have ignorant, self indulgent, self righteous, fame seeking, moralizers.
I conclude Pat by saying that it wasn't the war protesters that stopped the war,much as they like to pat themselves on the back. Protests are pressure relief valves, and are actually encouraged, by agent provocateurs.
It was the50,,000 young men coming back in body bags,that stopped the war, so effective that Bush even forbade photo's of the unloading of aluminum caskets at Dover AFB, and the filming of military burials.
I was at Yale this weekend for an event not related to the occupation but I visited it several times. It was beautiful, music, artwork, food and lots of books - the theme was books not bombs. The crowd was mostly young and diverse. Tents were set up. It was at a lightly used part of campus easy to traverse. I had great conversations and felt safe and welcome. They are asking Yale to divest from companies that produce military weapons. I was approached by a reporter to ask me why I was there, he explained I was an unusual demographic being in my 60s. That was Friday night as the weekend went on I saw the number of elders grow with each visit. I'm grateful for the young people calling us to consider the impacts of supporting weapons of war 🕊️☮️
Try going there wearing a Jewish star, and your experience will be totally different. Even a Jewish professor was warned to stay away for his own safety. How long before all Jews are unable to attend? Yale has become an ugly, ugly place. Covering over the rot within with art work hides nothing. Just because they haven't officially started burning books yet is no excuse. No doubt books written by Right wingers have already been banned from the libraries there. The Left even hates Dr. Seuss books.
And that's an insult to juniors and seniors in high school EVERYWHERE... So called adults have run the world from day one and things couldn't be more screwed up.
And not only are they handed a defective world on the day they become adults, they are categorized as shiftless and lazy, or overactive and crazy. They'll be led to the front lines, they'll be paid little, and told to be quiet when they grumble.
The kids that are speaking up are making sense, and they aren't backing down. And what's more, time is on their side. Except this climate we get poisoning.
[sigh] The point of my comment is that whether the world is defective or not, it is those that complain the loudest of its condition just after they bequeath it to others are boggling to me. It's like screaming at someone after they've bought their new home from you that they've stained the fence a darker shade of brown.
I was referring to emotional levels - not intelligence. You are right though some of the Adults in the room have and continue to screw things up. And younger people, emotional or not, do 'wake' some of those adults up. The problem in America is that since 1981 we have allowed the greediest of adults to set the stage, and too many of us were too busy with 'living' top notice just how screwed up we were.
Lord of the flies is fiction that has distorted our image of children. Google the real life experience of children stranded on an island who worked together effectively and with care for each other for over a year until they were discovered. The stories we tell ourselves have real impact.
Nancy Sorensen ; I read that the median age of those in Gaza is 18 years old. Or it was before Oct 7. all of them knew nothing but war, and nothing about peace and self determination.
Gaza had self rule for almost twenty years. This is what the Palestinians did with it. If they know nothing but war and hate, it's the fault of Hamas. Not that Hamas leaders care a fig for even the lives of their own people. They only care for their own power.
Do you believe there are "Russian bots" active in "social media"...? Note: the error message above:"Comment removed" is a mystery to me after I got 12 LIKEs....!!!
From what I hear, the Ukrainian commitment to NOT allowing Russia to take over has propelled people who’ve lost arms and legs to remain in military service….
I’m not kidding myself or anyone else that getting Russians to desert THEIR armies would solve any problems. But … you know … why not encourage it anyway …
{I'm way more in favor of us helping Ukraine to repel Russia’s invasion, NOT with US boots on the ground, but with resourcs to do the job — but I don’t pretend to be able to predict how that will eventually work out. I’m NOT in favor of US imperial adventures all over the world, but I AM in favor of helping Ukraine to push Russia back—and helping them with robust resources to do it.}
I find it amazing that it only took several hours for the two sides to come to an agreement after such a long and violent history of hate and war and anguish on both sides. I wish it had been recorded somehow.
If only some person or entity could achieve this between the two sides. With the current players it does not seem possible. Thank you, Mr Reich.
There are many cross-cultural organizations in Israel and in support of Israel in the U.S. I have participated in two: Bridges to Peace, in which we as a Jewish family in Denver hosted two Palestinian young women; and now Standing Together. I wish these organizations were receiving more attention. These are the peacemakers. This needs to be the future.
Not everybody wants to kill. There are those among us who want to find another way. Those are the peacemakers and they exist on both sides if we look for them. I know there are many that are not peacmakers. Those are not open to change or to possibility. They are NOT the peacemakers.
These protestors are NOT the peacemakers. They want Jews dead, and some don't even bother to hide it. People who scream "Death To America!" and "Kill All The Jews!" do NOT want peace. That's pretty obvious if you stop to think for just a minute. If you want to find another way, start by not attacking people for their religion. Jewish American students have no control at all over the Israeli government.
Hamas does NOT want peace. Putin does NOT want peace. You can't make people want what you want. Power and wealth are far more attractive to many people than peace. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.
I think people have a hard time supporting a universal moral position when they start from inside an emotional, passionate sense of advocacy. I'm guessing that the students needed to express their pain and outrage first. I'm impressed that they got there at all - I'm seeing lots of adults, even leaders, who can't or won't extend universal moral principles to the group they oppose/blame.
An immediate jolt! A better group discussion would have been between Palestinians and Israelis or Jews and Moslems. To have an opinion, one would have to live in Israel or experience having UCB bombed daily from Oakland and Richmond with the express purpose of doing away with it and anyone claiming it is legitimate. No one wants war or the death of children. Israel is as legitimate as (Trans) Jordan or Syria or Iraq. I recommend all "protestors" visit and then go to Gaza and proclaim some minority rights and a progressive agenda.
Being against discrimination against BOTH Israelis and Palestinians is contradictory given current attitudes and hatred in the region. So it's AMAZING that they could get these seven principles in writing in several hours.
Many Israeli citizens are actually Arabs. I gather they don't count? Despite the fact that many still call themselves Palestinians? You seem to be assuming that all Israeli citizens are Jewish, which is incorrect. Most Jews around the world are not Israeli citizens, and there are Arabs that have full Israeli citizenship--including the right to vote in Israel's elections. One of those is a Judge on the Israeli Supreme Court.
In a heated and emotionally freighted discussion of morality within the framework of two opposing and historically antagonistic religions, I'm impressed that they came to any agreement at all.
Thank you Professor. As a Jew, I have been ambivalent about the state of Israel since Rabin was assassinated, and Netanyahu took office.
I support Israel; however, not with impunity. For the last three decades we’ve watch as Israel has continued its stranglehold in the West Bank and East Jerusalem and Gaza. Denying rights to Palestinians, and illegally annexing land and creating settlements. The latest just several weeks ago (2000 acres in the West Bank) after Biden announced he would not support further incursions into Gaza.
Hamas on the other hand, has been committed to Israel’s destruction since its inception; as part of its charter. Today we have Israeli’s and Palestinians who are equally committed to the other’s destruction. The religious zealots in both camps: Hamas, Islamic Jihad and the right-wing messianic Jews.
The problem with a two state solution is there isn’t any trust on either side. The fanatics increasingly move each side further to extremes, because they continue to commit extreme violence on both sides, which is counterproductive; and their ultimate goals of the fanatics. It’s been extremely effective.
As for America’s youth, protesting on college campuses? I have to take issue with the violence, threats and their misunderstanding of who exactly Hamas is. It’s one thing to protest the Israeli government and policies, but another to ostracize an entire group of people and call for their destruction.
I was always taught that Israel was created with a higher moral purpose; and the mistreatment of Palestinians is the antithesis of Israel’s creation. And all of us who turn a blind eye to Israel’s atrocities are no better than Hamas and complicit.
Israel cannot act like Hamas if it wants a place in polite society, and earn its reputation back. There’s a reason Hamas has no seat in the UN: it’s illegitimate. The UN recognizes the Palestinian National Authority as the Palestinian’s legitimate government: in the West Bank, East Jerusalem and Gaza.
Israel on the other hand, is becoming illegitimate in the eyes of many, including our European Allies, and dragging the US’s reputation through the mud as well.
Bottom line: something’s got to give; the status quo isn’t holding, and the center is imploding….:)
I agree with much of what you say but also have a number of problems with it specifically with regard to Hamas. Hamas, was tolerated and even wanted by Netanyahu, as you know, to divide the Palestinians under the PLO, Fatah. Hamas was willing to moderate at one point and it's still a good bet that they would- better than this war. I am tired of Israel and "pro Israel side" pointing to the Hamas charter as an excuse. Their radicals are no more radical than Israel's. Israel has the weapons and has been brutal in their occupation.. that's not terrorism? Peaceful resistance has been impossible. Need I go on? Palestinians have lost their lives many more times the number of Israelis over the many years of occupation. And now the worst is happening.. almost complete devastation, some call it genocide. What do Israeli's know or care of this?
The reason Hamas has no seat in the UN is because it is a resistance group, not a state. What good is the PNA or the PLO when there is a blockade of Gaza and occupation has no prospect of ending?
Israel is the stronger, armed to the teeth and backed by the US. Yet it cries "existential threat"!! Israel will not, even now, take a chance to give Palestinians something to live for, rather than die for: their own state.
The US needs to condition it's help to Israel. The US is compllicit in this disaster.
Gaza also has a border with Egypt, plus a tunnel network that moves goods and people in and out of Egypt. They also received free utilities from Israel.
They could have had statehood and peace at many points, if only they would accept Israel and stop attacking it.
I meant Hamas was elected in Gaza. Israel then imposed a blockade. You think Palestinians are supposed to roll over and comply? Would Israel if the situation were reversed? Might makes right in this situation so Hamas took its cue. Israel has and had NO intention of allowing Palestinians equality within Israel or a state of their own. Israel wants the Palestinians to go elsewhere, give up. And now what?? Israel has in its reaction to October 7th destroyed Gaza, has a Huge problem now that the rest of us are going to fix and pay for? Israel will have to give up its vision of Greater Israel first.
The blockade was because of the constant rockets firing from Hamas.
AND, Gaza also has a border with Egypt!!!
It is NOT Israel's responsibility to supply weapons or supplies to terrorists hell-bent on destroying them. When countries are hostile to the USA, we stop trading with them. It's a no-brainer. Do we give North Korea weapons and money?
If they had not constantly been attacking Israel, it would have gone differently.
None of this was ever about Israel wanting all the land. Israel tried to give the West Bank back to Jordan and Gaza back to Egypt. They would not take them.
Israel offered statehood to Palestine 6 times in its history. Palestine always turned it down. They would accept no statehood unless it was ALL of it, "from the river to the sea." That's the history.
Palestinians want and deserve their own state or equality within Israel They are not Jordanian, nor Egyptian. This was the deal when Israel was recognized as a state after partition. After 1967 Israel got greedy. They questioned Palestinian rights to the land. They denied they were a legitimate people. They took their villages and lands.
Neither Egypt nor Jordan wanted to absorb the Palestinians, though Jordan did anyway, to let Israel off the hook. Palestinians that remained had legitimate attachments and claims to the land that they wanted to resolve. Israel NEVER "offered" Palestinians a state; never agreed to it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-state_solution#
The Palestinians have rejected a two state solution over and over. They are the greedy ones. They want it ALL--starting with murdering all the Jews from the river to the sea. They chant it often enough. When people tell you want they want, you should believe them.
They do NOT have freedom through Egypt and did not. The constant rockets were resisting the blockade. Catch 22. Which came first? The oppression military occupation or the rockets? People with no freedom want freedom. There was no peace process.. thanks to Sharon and Netanyahu.
Who is and was hellbent on destroying who? Israel, the right wing in power for decades, has wanted all the land. They have been saying one thing to us and another to their people. Israel NEVER offered statehood. This is a lie. 6 times. You are buried in propaganda. And what was offered, take it or leave it, was VERY short of that. It is ISRAEL that wants and IS settling all the land.. go there and look and listen now. Some are even drooling over GAZA once they clear it out of Palestinians.
You are spreading lies and propaganda yourself. Projection definition: the process of displacing one's feelings onto a different person, animal, or object. It is you who wants to clear Israel of Jews. Palestinians get money for every Jew they kill.
There are many Arabs with full Israeli citizenship, of which one is on the Israeli Supreme Court. If Israel lets Hamas in with no restrictions, they will just kill more innocent people, and some of them would probably even be Arabs. Maybe Arab lives have a little value to you? Or maybe not.
Palestinians do not have FULL Israeli citizenship, full rights. Arabs can be Jews. Jews have full rights. Israel kills many times more innocent people, Palestinians. This is a fact. over 34,000 now in Gaza most of them innocent. Your defense of Israel's terrorism and occupation shows you do not care about Arabs at all.
Your alternate facts you mean. Gaza is considered occupied. Israel propaganda says it’s not.
The PLO does not govern Gaza correct but Palestinians consider themselves one political entity , divided internally fostered by Israel. Hamas governs Gaza and was erected. Then blockaded by Israel land sea air, israel went in, goes in, at will.and destroys. There should not be resistance?? This is still considered occupation. Your line parrots Israel propaganda perfectly. They Palestinians, never had a chance to be free of Israel. Never. Israel’s conditions never allowed it and won’t. When talks came close Sharon and then Netanyahu took the table away. Name ONE point. Your opinion is factually wrong. It’s total propaganda.
This trick only goes so far. When we call Trump a liar and say he is projecting. He is lying. There is a basis in TRUTH.
There is such a thing as TRUTH. There is such a thing as right and wrong. And then there is a lot in between to argue about. But when you pull out the accusation of "projection" its in the service of saying the other person is guilty of what they are accusing others of. That is a cancellation. When you say I am projecting, even when I am pointing to facts, you are cancelling me. I am muting you. No discussion possible. This is what Trump does. He cancels the truth.
You are misguided and misinformed and adamant about it. You can take a side honestly, but it's dishonest to give false "facts" and for instance say that Palestinians have been offered a state and rejected it. They got close and Israel pulled away. Bottom line, Israel does not want two states. It shows you have not studied the history, or maybe just one version, one side. Right now might makes right and israel has the might.. and the US is helping. Morally Israel is not right.
You are misusing the definition of "projection" (this is a fad now) to defend what you say. This is itself a projection and it is used as an accusation.. to cancel the truth you don't like. I am muting you.
It's much easier if your enemies are too busy fighting each other to attack you. Hamas has no seat at the UN, because it's a TERRORIST group. No terrorist group has a seat at the UN.
Gaza was already de facto its own state for almost 20 years. It was self governing, but elected a terrorist group that spent all the money on tunnels and bombs instead of helping the people there. They live for hate. Children are already indoctrinated by age 5. They celebrate when people die in the intifada, because it means they will go to heaven. To them, death while killing Jews makes you a hero. It's a death cult.
Israel responds to rockets with bombs and enormous devastation. Rockets into Israel are terrorism but Israel's bombs are not? What does "terrorism" mean to you? Gaza was NEVER EVER its own state. It does not have independence. It does not have SOVEREIGNTY. It is BLOCKADED. So if it was sovereign, as you falsely claim, it would follow that Hamas was elected its LEGITIMATE leader. When the word "terrorist" is used it can also be a STATE that is doing the terrorizing, like Israel.. now in the West Bank, where SANCTIONED terrorism is used by Israel on peaceful people.
According to humanitarian law, people have a right to rise against oppression. Israel has been "terrorizing" Gaza since after Israel for its own strategic reasons unilaterally left in 2005 with no deal, no agreement. Israel did not like Hamas rule and then imposed a blockade. It takes TWO sides to make this war. When Israel unilaterally left Gaza, with no deal between the sides, it separated the Palestinians one from another, and split it from the West Bank, taking advantage of the divisions. But Israel was and is an occupier and responsible according to every definition of occupation, including international law.
Any side can claim it is fighting terrorism. The other side cannot respond?
Hamas has sought to gain weapons to fight Israel, the rockets. Hamas believe that is the only way to fight Israel, with might; there is no peace process and Israel does not want a peace process, that is clear. There have been periods of ceasefire.
In 2008 Hamas agreed to moderate and accept any deal the Palestinians agreed to with Israel. Israel ended the peace process when Sharon came into power and then Netanyahu, even though at the time with Olmert, the negotiations were very close.
ISRAEL does not want to give up the land, they want all of it. That is clear. They want to isolate the Palestinians, occupy them behind walls and gates, take their land push them to leave, make them miserable. The more they uprise, the more Israel can claim it is fighting terrorism.
The peacemakers on both sides are tryinig to unite and work together. I know, because I signed into one on these groups. It will take time, but they will succed! We must all raise the consciousness of love, acceptance, respect and compassion. " "Blessed are the peacemakers for they shall be called children of God."
Thank you Robert Jaffee for your thought provoking article. "The mistreatment of Palestinuans is the antithesis of Israel". Would that that were believed more widely but thank you for reminding us.
Good articles. Agreed that changes need to be made on all sides; especially the PA leadership. I believe Abbas even recently agreed to step down, being replaced by the PM.
That said, No one said it would be easy, but if they’re negotiating, they’re not fighting….:)
A two state solution has been offered many times since the creation of Israel--and the Palestinians refused every time. Terrorist groups like Hamas want it ALL. The River to the Sea chant has been around for decades. The English version just more recently leaves out the part about murdering all the Jews between those bodies of water and dumping them in the Sea, but it's still implied. "Palestine shall be free" means free of JEWS. So insane that most of the "protestors" have little idea of what that means--or maybe they do and are lying about it.
I’m not talking about negotiating with Hamas, I’ve stated as much, but the offer occurred in the 1990’s, and Israel refused to allow the Palestinians equal resource rights or full control over the territories. The Palestinians didn’t even have the ability to raise taxes, all went through Israel. The deal would have been similar to just self rule in Gaza, with no control over movement or resources (electricity and water) or tax revenue.
There needs to be a path to self rule and self reliance. I agree about Hamas; they can’t be negotiated with.
Thank you, Professor Reich. It would be helpful for key people in the Biden administration, and Biden himself, to read your posting. Supporting any government or entity that commits the kinds of moral atrocities acted upon by both Hamas and Israel unconditionally with weapons to carry out such acts is also morally wrong. A fear that crops up often in my mind is that Biden's unconditional arming of Israel could cost him the election, if enough people stay at home and not vote to make a difference. Terrifying...
My worries, too. The Opinion section of the NYTimes yesterday had Biden sitting in a desk underneath a monumental boulder of the Gaza war. I came in late, saw it, and went to bed.
And in addition We Have A Corrupt prime minister who has no compulsion about murdering innocents on both sides to prolong his time in office and avoid prosecution for his crimes…
There cannot be any peace until BB Nu dies, and or retires from public office…
That condition of peace is in gods hands and not in humans tool box…
Israel hasn't committed atrocities. It's a war against Hamas, which Hamas started. Hamas explicitly wants to wipe them out to make another Islamic state-- One without freedom of religion or democracy or human rights.
Wiping out Hamas is necessary. They are a terrorist group, not an endangered indigenous ethnic group.
Hamas reports casualty numbers that are inflated, and do not distinguish combatants from civilians, and also include anyone that dies for any reason, such as a rocket misfire from Islamic Jihad.
It isn't unconditional, and that propaganda onslaught of constantly having headlines with "Over 30, 000 Palestinians dead" - based on Hamas figures! - that completely omits the huge percentage who are Hamas terrorists, is only one part of the problem.
This is a good article and great approach. May I point out, though, that Netanyahu's messaging and direct wording during this whole affair (as well as his reported part resulting in the Hamas attack) is saying that Israelis don't respect the lives of Palestinians. This has been evident in the segregation, too. So although this calls for a two-state solution, it does so largely because Israel has attempted to be a democracy for all of its citizens and a state that identifies by religious affiliation will always fail others - whether Muslim or Jewish.
And a side note: That is why our nation's Constitution based on the ideal of equal rights and separation of faith from fact-based governing is uniquely an opportunity for our democracy. A democracy without education or a democracy based on religious discrimination eventually fails all.
It is sad that today we find ourselves unable to acknowledge Jews in this nation who see that the policies of Netanyahu fail the nation of Israel and its peoples. It is sad that the protestors in Israel get so little attention at this time, when Netanyahu (supporter of Trump) fails to care what they protest and wants to hold onto power (like Trump).
It is sad that Jewish students against those policies in universities and city streets here are being discriminated against as much as Palestinians are being wrongly identified as Hamas.
It is time to talk about the issues of the nation of Israel instead of just claiming anyone against the Israeli state's actions are anti-Semitic. I realize that is difficult with true anti-Semitism growing with the autocracy of Republicans today in this nation.
However, separation of faith from fact-based governing and an ideal of equality of all citizenry is the only way to a worthwhile democracy.
Should we mention the more than 50 laws that discriminate against the Palestinian citizens of Israel, such as the prohibition to live in certain communities; the limitations on who they can marry; the substandard schools for their children, etc. I guess we could call the practice of these laws Israel’s Jim Crow.
So your solution to the fact that Israel has problems like every other country is to kill all the Jews? Martin Luther King succeeded because he was nonviolent. You can't negotiate with people to trust you with more freedom while you are trying to kill them.
Israel is one of the last settler colonial regimes, and as such, it follows the patterns of other settler colonial entities, such as the U.S., Canada, Australia, Belgium, Denmark, the Netherlands, France etc. All of these nations invaded lands where they did not live and ethnically cleansed, committed genocide and held the indigenous people hostage, creating laws that forced the indigenous people to live under apartheid conditions. The actual fact of being killed is borne out by the Israeli killing of tens of thousands of Palestinians as far back as 1947-48 & even before the creation of the regime. The present genocide of surely more than 60K Palestinians is proof of who the real murderers are. A people under occupation have the right to resist.
Christcr, in case you missed it, This last sentence of yours: "However, separation of faith from fact-based governing and an ideal of equality of all citizenry is the only way to a worthwhile democracy."
Applies many fold to Islam, to HAMAS, Hezbollah, Iran and FATAH.
In case you didn't know it, there are 57 Muslim ethnostates in the world, and none of them recognize real democratic values for women, gays, minorities.
Israel, on the other hand, does, at least until the Likkud and it's allies in the orthodox community take full control of the government.
True, but you can’t negotiate with a right-wing government whose position is to dangle a two state solution in their faces, with no intention of ever achieving one. There’s a reason the right-wing Israeli’s assassinated Rabin; they too, don’t believe in a two state solution; and they are stronger today than in the late 90’s.
And you miss the main point. Hamas isn’t the internationally recognized government of the Palestinian people in the West Bank or Gaza. The UN and most of the world, outside of a few ME countries and Russia, recognize the Palestinian National Authority as the legitimate government and authority of the Palestinian people.
Netanyahu has done everything possible to weaken the Palestinian Authority, and allowed Qatar and the UAE to strengthen Hamas over the years with financial aid.
We need a new Israeli government willing to make a deal, and we need to strengthen the PA, while weakening Hamas and cutting off their funding. Additionally, the world needs to hold both sides’s hands through the process. We can longer allow either side to operate on its own accord.
The status quo is not holding, and the center is falling apart. Time for change!…:)
Here is a sad fact. A two state solution will result in another Gaza times two.
What we have in the Levant is a religious war, one initiated by Muhammad and the Rashidun Caliphate. If you read the Quran and Haddiths there would be no question.
Muhammad had the entire tribe of Jews (Quaryza) (600) in all beheaded, six at a time, in the market of Medina, probably why Medina is considered sacred next to Mecca.
The war against the Jews is carried further in the haddiths, in particular the haddith of al Bukhari, verses 1295/1296, book 56, haddith 139 al Bukhari.
My personal opinion and i have said it long before this war. The Jews should not have been given this country in the middle of their sworn enemies. It was a program for just what is happening. Religion at its worse. Glad to be a non believer.
It was a different time after the war. Millions were dead, Europe was in rubble, Japan had experienced the ultimate weapon twice, the UN was new and ready to roar and people were tired of conflict, really tired. It was a new day of hope and charity and the Balfour Declaration and a battered Britain which was no longer able to manage Palestine. It was not so much religion because Israel was to be a secular home for all Jews. Today, we have an Israel bristling with defensive and offensive weapons, an apartheid policy towards it’s Arab citizens and a destructive bent towards Gaza and Hamas. I was there at the inception but Israel today is breaking my heart
I see that you have swallowed Arab propaganda hook line and sinker, and missed RR's message.
There is blame a plenty for the dire situation in Gaza, and it all lies on HAMAS, who slaughtered, brutally, thousands of Jewish babies, children, women, disabled and elderly and hauled 240 of them back as hostages, to use along with their own citizens as human shields.
Every dead Gazan, every dead Jew lies in the lap of HAMAS.
I am aware of the crimes and cruelty of Netanyahu and the Israeli right, but that does not justify the actions of HAMAS, if you think it does, then you too are a heartless, psychopath.
You went from mindless, unfair, demonstrably false stereotyping of students as "idiots" to stating something (albeit a bit hyperbolically, but this debate or discussion generates strong feeling!) I endorse, thanks!
Thank you Professor Reich great ideas. Would they work with a larger crowd or do you advise training moderators who in turn would be able to break up the crowd and discuss in smaller groups?
Fay, you raise an important question. A protest is not an exchange of ideas. It is a statement of a position, a statement that can be easily distorted in an instant by outsiders hostile to the protesters. Protest organizers need to be extremely cautious, especially when emotions are so strong. The danger of violence is high. In the current situation, Universities should hold workshops, with professors acting as moderators. Protests should be discouraged as much as possible.
When winning is everything collateral damage does not matter. Republicans consciously and unconsciously are saying loss of democracy for a Trump win is tolerable collateral damage. Tens of thousands of women and children have been killed in Gaza while Palestinians starve to death as Israel “defends” itself with American help. Ethnic cleansing-genocide is desired by some and tolerated by the many as collateral damage. Collateral damage gives license to remove any morality we might have had.
The casualties are about 15, 000 Hamas and NO WAY are 2/3 "women and children," either, neither is this "ethnic cleansing genocide," although that IS the main goal of Hamas! They positively glory in it.
Israel -roughly size of New Jersey; 1200 dead, in the USA that proportion would be FORTY THOUSAND DEAD, in one day!
The US would have dropped even more bombs even faster, if a determined terrorist state enemy was on our borders doing that, And promising more.
Can't stand Trump, been excoriating him since 2016, he and the MAGATS have nothing to do with this discussion.
The numbers of casualties are grossly inflated by the HAMAS "Ministry of Health", they know that Americans are susceptible to propaganda and images and play us ;like a violen.
Half of the casualties are HAMAS fighters, but HAMAS is not telling us that.
HAMAS has the blood of it's own citizens on it's hands, because they use them as human shields. Muslims believe that this is a Jihad, and people who died in Jihad are martyr's. Martyr's are celebrated not mourned. Yahya Sinwa said "we are a nation of martyr's and will keep coming back, again and again",
How does one fight such an enemy.?The solution is for Israel and the Jews to commit suicide.
According to the AP, " More than 1,230 people have been charged with federal crimes in the riot, ranging from misdemeanor offenses like trespassing to felonies like assaulting police officers and seditious conspiracy. Roughly 730 people have pleaded guilty to charges, while another roughly 170 have been convicted of at least one charge at a trial decided by a judge or a jury. . . .Dozens of people believed to have assaulted law enforcement during the riot have yet to be identified by authorities, according to Graves [US Attorney for DC]."
You are totally ignorant of the facts. You are a victim of the Trump disease, listening only to his narcissistic and dangerous lies. Trump belongs in prison for the rest of his life!
Because Trump has indicated that he wants to be an autocrat like Putin, etc. He wants his enemies to be put in jail or killed. He wants to destroy the "free" press. Trump is a dangerous man who lacks empathy, compassion and cares only for himself. He is a narcisist! He wants power in order to control you!
Thank you for this, Professor Reich. Such moral clarity is a challenge when everyone is stressed. Certainly, we are all are now. I am a block away from the Columbia campus with the noise of helicopters overhead. There are drones, but they are silent, hovering above, attached to vehicles either from the police or news outlets; I can't tell. I counted 15 NYPD vehicles around the entrance to my building when I went outside earlier. Today I learned that not everyone arrested in support of Palestine was a Columbia or Barnard student, but that the students who were arrested were also suspended. A rabbi counseled Jewish students to go home for Passover and their personal safety, but Hillel has counseled that they should be safe on campus. At a time like this I wish Columbia's president would talk to its students, much as you did. I see no reason why the presidents of private universities should have to answer to Congress. Rather than prove they are tough enough to quiet this debate should not be the issue. It is a teachable moment, and you were smart enough to recognize that.
It’s pitiful that you did not discuss Israel’s 75+ years of ethnic cleansing of Palestinians from historic Palestine. It’s pitiful that you didn’t discuss the 17-year Israeli blockade & siege of Gaza with more than 5 wars, not counting this genocide. It’s pitiful that you can’t use the words apartheid & genocide, words that the ICJ & human rights organizations use. To talk about Israel and Gaza requires laying bare the history of Israel’s oppression, destruction, and continued ethnic cleansing of Palestinians.
75 years of ethhic cleansing Sanna. You mean the attempted genocide of Jews when it's Arab neighbors tried to obliterate it in Nov 1948, they failed, they tried again in 1956, failed, again in 1967, failed, tried again in 1973 failed, tried again in 2006 and 2024, failed, and each time they tried and failed, Israel acquired more land from the people who tried to genocide them, for safety and security and you call that ethnic cleansing.
How about the continued genocide attempt of the Jews.
Please, Ms Towns. Are you suggesting that Jewish people have no similar claims to make? As long as there has been a Middle East there has been conflict. In order to survive in the post WWII world Jewish people had to justify their standing on 2 fronts: the British who did not want them to have a nation state and Arabs who did not want them. We all have wounds to heal.
The argument you put forth is both a justification and an excuse for hatred. Can you not think of a way to transcend currently cemented beliefs on both sides? Must we live in a state of mutually desired extermination?
As I see it, we need to acknowledge each other’s pain and determine how to move forward or all we are left with is another writer’s assertion of Kabuki theatre
Of course Jewish people have legitimate claims. I know well your history. Unfortunately, whenever the history of Palestinians under Israeli ethnic cleansing, occupation, apartheid & genocide is made public, there are folks like you who refuse to acknowledge that history. You immediately resort to words like hatred or antisemitism. Either you don’t want to come to terms with Israel’s violence against Palestinians or as it appears here, you wish to deflect with statements such as yours. For a people who have suffered so dearly as yours, you should join the many Jews worldwide who are condemning Israeli practices. It may be painful for you to acknowledge the facts of what Israel is, but as centered in the Jewish American produced film “Israelism,” it is the confronting of the myths of Israel that are so difficult for many Jews. And also note, my criticism of Reich’s piece was not about Jews, but about Israel. Israel does not represent all Jews. To think that it does is also antisemitic. Btw, quit the lie of there’s always been conflict in the ME; before the arrival of European Zionism to Palestine, Palestinian Jews, Muslims & Christians lived peacefully.
Sanna genocide requires intent to obliterate a religion or an ethnicity. Israel is not guilty of genocidal intent, on the other hand Islam is. Read the HAMAS Convention or sahih 1295 and 1296, book 56, hadith 139 al Bukhari. Heck read the Quran and the slaughter of the Jewish tribe of Quaryza in Medina.
William, I prefer to believe the experts of genocide (their numbers are immense) & the International Court of Justice (a plausible genocide). When you are able to present credible credentials, I just might pay attention to what you have to say.
And your credentials? Aside from studying comparative literature? You told William that without credible credentials you do not need to pay attention to what he has said. I’ve found such attitudes to be counterproductive.
You really are a dumb fuck aren't you. Maybe go and read the definition of what a genocide is before you show everyone your ignorance. While you are at it read the Likud Party manifesto and their 'River to the Sea' policy. Moron.
Do you feel better getting that off your chest asshole? LOL
Why don't you read the UN convention on Genocide, before spouting off. It is all about intention.
I know all about the Likkud, deplorable and my criticism of them and Zionist earns me the label anti semite in some circles. I could care fucking less asshole, like I could care fucking less about what you think, prick.
And the Left Wing/Palestinian call of Free Palestine from the River to the Sea is indeed a call to genocide and has genocidal intentions. prick.
Still showing your ignorance dipshit. Not just about intent. Maybe go back to remedial reading classes and some comprehension and then re-read the convention. Utter cretin.
Oh but they do. Islam is the Ummah, and the Ummah is Islam. The Ummah circles the wagons, regardless of secular differences, when the enemy is the kufr.
There are Jews for Palestine, anti war Jews, and on this thread self complained anti semitic (Anti Israel) Jews.
You will not find a Muslim who is in any way critical of Islam, the Quran, the Haddiths, those that do are murtadds, apostates, and the penaly for apostasy is death.
A few years back a Pakistani assassin was dispatched to trace down and kill a prominent apostate in Arizona.
Apostates, those that disrespect Muhammad and the Quran are routinely executed in Pakistan,and in the west people who disrespect Muhammad are the subjects of violence.
My History?? At the risk of sounding trite- check your assumptions. You have no idea who I am or what my history is. Perhaps I am a Sikh whose religious leader gave his life so other religions could be free to practice as they believed? Perhaps I am an atheist. Perhaps I have a Native American belief system or am a curandera.
One thing, however, is true, I do not lie. You may believe I am mistaken but do me the courtesy of not calling me a liar. Might I suggest walking in my shoes before assuming you understand my POV.
Much appreciate the balanced perspective offered here. One issue that is not touched on however, is the embedding of military forces within civilian populations. It is too often glossed over and my view is a major reason for the level of civilian casualties. It should be part of the discussion on moral principles.
As a casual observer of the conflict between the Israeli and Palestinians conflict and it seems the unprovoked killings in the west bank by so-called Jewish settlers from this country, in order to take Palestinian property was a big cause of Hamas's attack on the Israeli's.
What is the basis for your claim that half of the 34,000 (which you seem to admit is accurate) were Hamas and Islamic Jihad fighters? Do they have special tattoos, or is it just the men and young boys who you automatically assume are?
Well now you’ve lost me. I don’t consider myself gullible. I don’t think I’ve played into HAMA propaganda. My critical reasoning and thinking skills are intact. If you read a bit more carefully, I only said 34000 - not who or ideology. It’s often the women and children who are collateral damage. To me, people are people regardless of ideology or gender.
The number 34,000 is from the propaganda organ of HAMAS, which is their Minisry of Health, you repeat the number, ergo are lacking critical thinking skills.
I noticed that various pundits and sources also repeat that number taking it as gospel, with absolutely no proof, however when the IDF shows a video of HAMAS atrocities, they caveat it with "unconfirmed".
Trust me I am no fan or friend of the IDF, the Likkud the Zionists, but I am not a braindead partisan easily swayed by bullshit propaganda.
Actually David, I am 85, and the cause was not Jewish settlers taking Arab land, but a war aainst the jews, a religious war, that started 1400 years ago, and it manifested in Nov 1948, when the Arab neighbors of Israel, tried to eradicate the Jews, and has been going on non stop since then.
Of course you have a choice! You are 80, not dead! You can choose to be involved in any way you are able. You chose to comment, so you can choose to make your comment meaningful and impactful. At 80, you have a voice,; be heard; make an impact. Casual observers do not contribute to solutions.
Today is Passover. Go Down Moses. Herer's what I got from J Street.
Daniel,
“On Passover, we're supposed to imagine ourselves coming out of Egypt,” Noam Peri, the daughter of 80-year-old hostage Chaim Peri said last week, “Now we must imagine ourselves, or our 80-year-old fathers, as captives in Gaza.”
I’m a secular Israeli kibbutznik, culturally Jewish. But this year, like so many others, I'm finding deeper meaning in the symbolism of Passover.
Almost every day since October 7, I’ve volunteered with the Hostage Family’s Forum headquarters here in Israel. I have friends who were killed or taken hostage, and I am committed to doing everything in my power to return each and every hostage to their family’s arms.
This Passover will be uniquely painful for those I have worked with. Chairs left empty at the seder table for the very first time. The absence of a brother’s laugh, a daughter’s jokes, a parent’s embrace.
At our seders, we not only remember and recall the story of the Israelites held captive in Egypt and the Exodus, but we re-enact it. We celebrate hard-earned freedom and re-learn the values of compassion and empathy, even for our enemies. We are called upon not to forget the pain of oppression and suffering, and our calling to build a better future.
But while over 130 people remain held hostage in Gaza – and with time running out as dozens are reported to have died – many Jews in Israel and around the world feel that we cannot celebrate that freedom. For many of us too, a family feast of celebration strikes a discordant note while so many families in both Israel and Gaza endure unfathomable grief.
As we gather for the holiday, many of us will leave empty seats at our tables, keeping the hostages vividly in our minds. A reminder that the struggle for freedom is not over. Together, we will draw strength from Moses’ persistent, brave demand of the Pharaoh: “Let my people go!”
Today, on behalf of J Street, I reiterate the call we have made for more than six months now: For the immediate, unconditional release of all those held captive.
There can be no excuse for the crime of hostage-taking. For the relentless pain and anguish Hamas has inflicted on so many families. We will never cease to demand loudly and clearly: Let our people go.
J Street continues to urge American and global leaders to exert firm pressure on all parties involved to reach an urgent deal that reunites families with their loved ones and ends the devastation in Gaza. Currently, this means demanding that countries such as Qatar, Egypt and others with influence on Hamas exert all possible leverage to press them toward compromise.
As hostage families repeatedly tell anyone who will listen: Time is running out.
At this stage, only a negotiated ceasefire can bring freedom for the hostages, end the devastation and allow life-saving aid to safely reach families in Gaza. Longer term, we must work to isolate and disempower Hamas, including by charting a peaceful, diplomatic path toward resolving this conflict once and for all, and ensuring the horrors of October 7 and the ensuing war can never be repeated.
Just as I feel deep empathy with the suffering of hostages, I also share in the pain of families in Gaza struggling to survive – a people hoping to one day achieve their own freedom and self-determination. As the Passover story teaches us, no people should be denied that right.
On behalf of all of us at J Street, I wish you a meaningful Passover. May we draw strength from one another. May we share in our collective pursuit of freedom, safety and security for all Israelis and Palestinians.
Yours sincerely,
Nadav Tamir
Executive Director, J Street Israel
I read a column by Gershon Baskin today saying his insider information is that there are no realistic issues on the table to get the hostages freed without demolishing Hamas in Gaza, which is what all the bombing has been about for six months, and still not done. He said the hostages are NOT on Netanyahu’s agenda. Only demolishing Hamas.
I am not there. I cannot say. I can only see what is to be seen, and I can only hope that SOMEONE is talking to SOMEONE about ending this, for the sake of everyone who is suffering and losing and dying.
For the sake of the humanity that is suffering … to end this …
Gershon, I was wonsering how you saw this situation. Thank you for sharing.!
Daniel, I wish you a peaceful, enjoyable Passover.
Thanks for that Daniel.
As regards he hostages, I fear that they are all dead, and that is the primary reason HAMAS will not negotiate. An empty hand has nothing to give. And HAMAS will of course blame their deaths on Israeli bombing
Starvation is an equalizer too. Starving captors, are they somehow likely to find food to feed hostages?
Hamas IS negotiating. It’s Israel that refuses to. Israel wants all of the land and refuses to agree on a fair deal for the Palestinians
That simply isn't true. Hamas has been the ones refusing concessions in the latest round of talks in Qatar. With regard to past negotiations between Palestinian representatives and Israeli counterparts, Palestinian reps have consistently refused agreements. (Please look up the history of relevant peace talks, especially the Camp David Summit.)
In each and every “deal” Israel has demanded more land. Each deal has been unfair to the Palestinians. Hamas is asking for the following now:
We.. reaffirm our adherence to our demands and the national demands of our people; with a permanent ceasefire, the withdrawal of the occupation army from the entire Gaza Strip, the return of the displaced to their areas and places of residence, intensification of the entry of relief and aid, and the start of reconstruction," the Islamist faction said.
These are reasonable requests. Israel refuses to offer a reasonable deal
Unfair to Palestinians?
Hamas WAS a legitimate government of Gaza, with full control, and billions of dollars of support from the UNWRA and others. There was no Israeli presence in Gaza at all.
After Oct 7th, they don't get to be in charge of Palestine anymore.
They're openly genocidal murderous maniacs. How is this debatable?
How do you not see this?
Supporting Hamas is saying that you think Jewish Israeli children deserve to be dismembered in their beds for the crime of being born within the boundaries of Israel proper, their ancestral homeland, where they have lived for generations.
How the fuck does that make sense?
No, Hamas has to go. And if they are so righteous, why haven't they used their billions to build bomb shelters for their people? Why are the leaders billionaires who live in Qatar?
Why do they operate out of crowded civilian areas?
Because they are deeply evil, very well funded, and very skilled and manipulating gullible fools.
I understand that with the information you have that you think it’s impossible to have a different opinion, but you have been purposefully misinformed to protect a colonial project that enables western imperialism.
I find it similar to what British, then Americans, did to the Native Americans. The Native Americans were here first. When there were just a few British coming, struggling to survive, there were Native nations who would help. But the British, then Americans believed they has rights to land that wasn’t theirs. If the Native Americans fought back to protect themselves or their land, they were considered “evil.” The propaganda told to early Americans dehumanized Native Americans, like what is being done to the Palestinians. We pushed Native Americans into reservations, like what has been done to Palestinians. We attempted to kill them all repeatedly, just like Israel has done to the Palestinians. If you think the powers that be back the. Didn’t spread racist information about the Native Americans, your missing a lot of information on that era of history.
Supporting Hamas doesn’t equal believing Israeli children should be murdered. The stories about beheaded babies and mass rapes have been proven false. Hamas’s targets were originally just military. And witnesses who lived in the kibitz have said many times that the IDF killed hostages with crossfire and eventually a missile from a tank. Much of the destruction in the festival area was done by and IDF helicopter who was confused on who Hamas was and wasn’t. There is certain damage that Hamas just did not have the firepower to do.
Everything, and I mean EVERYTHING, Israel blames Palestinians for, it’s actually Israel who has done it to the Palestinians. Israel has beaten, tortured, and killed WAY MORE people than the Palestinians ever have. The true evil is Israel.
Now, I will not continue responding to you because you have be incredibly hostile and rude, but here are some resources if you want to actually know the truth:
1) This guy’s father was an important general in Israel and his grandfather signed the Israeli Declaration of Independence:
https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20231208-israeli-generals-son-miko-peled-challenges-zionist-ideology-criticises-condemnation-of-palestinian-resistance/amp/
2) This is a speech by the UN lawyer assigned to investigate the situation and her findings:
https://youtu.be/XAnn07kilFk?si=kgh_91RQIcq35ztR
3) This is the documentary she references:
https://youtu.be/-6jGl2twZRE?si=Nzzp1u7P7hzSvXEy
4) This is a left-leaning newspaper in Israel. They also published a military report that examined what happened on October 7th and how the IDF were responsible for killing at least some of the innocent victims. You have to be a member to read the below article, but the title and blurb say enough. BTW these were peaceful protests on the Palestinians part.
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2020-03-06/ty-article-magazine/.highlight/42-knees-in-one-day-israeli-snipers-open-up-about-shooting-gaza-protesters/0000017f-f2da-d497-a1ff-f2dab2520000
5) This is a group in Israel that helps former IDF soldiers speak out about what they saw while in the IDF:
https://www.breakingthesilence.org.il/testimonies/videos/84876
6) This provide links to international law that supports the Palestinian’s right to armed struggle:
https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/opinions/2017/7/20/palestinians-have-a-legal-right-to-armed-struggle
7) How Netanyahu supported Hamas:
https://www.thenation.com/article/world/why-netanyahu-bolstered-hamas/
HAMAS’ attack was monstrous, but to claim there was somehow NO Israeli “presence” in Gaza at all — you can’t be serious? Israel controlled finance and access in and out, completely.
What HAMAS unleashed on innocents in October is not defensible, but Israel cannot say they have been treating Palestinians with respect. That is laughable. Pat offers have included the continued presence of “Settlments” and private Israeli roads cutting through th West Bank, as well as loss of access to parts of Jerusalem as their capitol, and never full control of Gaza.
They didn't FINANCE them. It's that knowingly Netanyahu LET Qatar, the UNWRA, and others fund them. He let them grow under his watch, thinking the world would see the barbaric terrorism and prefer Israel, whereas the PLO was more reasonable and likable.
Little did he know how much the West is excited for jihad!
I fear for America. It's already really bad in Europe. Teachers have been beheaded for showing a drawing of Mohammad in a college class on Free Speech in France. And I bet you think that's justified.
You're either intentionally spreading lies, or a brainwashed useful idiot for the Islamic Republic. I hope they're at least paying you.
Nope. Telling the truth that has been obfuscated by Zionist lies and propaganda.
Anything that challenges your view is propaganda, right?
Not true at all.
Keep in mind it’s not “Palestinians” anyone talks to, but Hamas. Hamas and Netanyahu are both crazy with bloodlust.
Palestinians are only "suffering" because Israel is killing them indiscriminately without military or any other reason. Karma has a way to working itself out. Israel will reap what it sows.
Do you really believe that Oct 7th and Hamas has nothing to do with it?
Israel is just attacking Gaza because.... they're just evil demons?
Seriously?
I now strongly believe that it literally doesn't matter AT ALL what Israel does or doesn't do. The reactions from the world would be exactly the same.
The only scenario where you'd like Israel is if they all got completely massacred. Just a sad story to pretend that we regret.
People love dead Jews.
I think everyone is disgusted at the disproportionate amount of violence by Israel, or is that word too big for you???
It's not even disproportionate. The civilian to combatants ratio has proven to have been the similar or better than previous wars like Iraq and Afghanistan.
It’s a war. Read about Okinawa or Berlin - Gaza is a peaceful in comparison.
I fail to see how Gaza is "peaceful." We are seeing before our eyes Israel, with all the military might it has, beat up and kill civilians who are unarmed, in hospitals, in the public fetching humanitarian aid, fleeing barrages from Israel, or living their own lives. Israel doesn't get any worse. It will have a lot of karma to answer for.
Just watch the news. Last night NBC showed a woman in a hospital in Gaza going to give birth. There were doctors, nurses attending, the power was on. On Okinawa during the assault and invasion by the US forces, there was no anything - civilians tried take refuge in caves. Many were killed by Japanese soldiers - or used as human shields in the caves. The island was left as a 'cratered moonscape - subject to millions of artillery shells and rockets.
At least 125,000 civilians died.
Berlin when the Red Army attacked Berlin, the situation was similar. The Red Army launched an overwhelming artillery and Katuskha rocket barrage from high ground. There were no women going to give birth at hospitals.
To you understand the difference?
I know Robert says there is an alternative to rooting out Hamas - but:
1. He'd doesn't say what it is
2. He's never been right about anything
Have you forgotten October 7th?
The jews have been reaping what you're sowing for 2000 years.
As the Palestinians are now?
Religion. In the name of religion the country and government of Israel exist--or maybe that's not true. Maybe people in Israel want peace for everyone and to work together, as people--which everyone has in common. "Belief" is just weird. Why set one's group aside, above, as if under a golden beam and say, We're right because God favours us"? Crossing a border to provide service as your job should not take several hours (every job is a service)--I mean, it's moot now but that was BEFORE the guards (all dead now) informed home Intelligence that the natives were obviously restless and something was coming. Hamas is evil. A pot on boil, and anticipated young strong forcibly idle people wouldn't go nuts. God has no favourites. God cares about everyone equally, or there is none. We all bleed red. Israel (etc.) has to find another way to be a country. God favours no one, particularly anybody that scorns anybody, as if self-confidence in magic or stories makes an individual more than human, pretending God prefers grumpy-guts finger-pointing. Dump religion as if there were one. Be who you are, enjoy traditions that don't cost others, just by being yours. Be who you are, providing for people to work and join (membership is a motivator), to be together, a civilized society. I just don't get it.
It's the opposite. Israel was founded by secular people. Israel exists to be a safe space for Jews, because Jews are a small ethnic group that is historically hated, target, and abused, and has never been safe living in an Islamic state.
Israel has freedom of religion and equal rights for all. It has Muslim and Christian citizens.
The Arab Muslims, on the other hand, are obsessed with destroying Israel, for religious reasons. The prophet Mohammad hated Jews. "If a Jew falls into you hands, kill him" is a quote from the Quran. There's a story where he kills a village of 700 Jews, except for a woman he keeps as a wife. He also tells believers in a popular Haddith that the Muslims must fight the "children of Israel" to the death, until every last one is dead, and this must happen before judgement day.
I wish I was wrong, but that's literally in there. They all know it. It's definitely a factor in all of this. That's why the entire Muslim world is united against Israel, but not against China or Burma committing literal genocide against Muslim populations.
You see?
It’s not “the opposite”; it’s the same. Not that “tolerance-breeds-tolerance,” but to make it socially unacceptable to defer to the Quran or the Bible to tell you “who” these current people are.
I am not siding with fighters, haters, killers, xenophobes, no matter who they are—and no one does. Those-type venomous people are in a dust-ball of their own thoughts. Don’t get sucked into being one.
Dump the old texts, none are relevant to good government. “It says in the Quran,” about hate and murder, so you hate-them-back. Eye-roll. To grow-up and shut-up about who to hate and target, and recognize new philosophers, new thoughts and writing, good government, supportive civilized society. Everyone desires peace.
Dragged down by history, throw out old notions of superiority and press for requirement “they,” whoever, do too. Don’t say “God guides me to kill them.” We may feel that way but we live to get-along.
Jews had been migrating back to Israel starting in the 19th century. They immigrated legally (into the Ottoman Empire. By around 1880, Jerusalem was majority Jewish. No one plopped the Jews there - that is so off base. (Putting on my politeness hat here.)
The facts be damned then - it's all about you.
Thank you.
It took SEVERAL HOURS to come to agreement that discrimination based on religion and ethnicity, murder, kidnapping, and genocide are morally despicable and wrong?
Good grief.
Remember J Scott these are college students, and while very intelligent they are still as emotionally erratic as juniors and seniors in high school. Being able to discuss such morality a right or wrong unemotionally comes with age and experience (and sometimes never, sigh)
Fay, I dunno…my 19 year old son can discuss these matters quite calmly, while my 50-something BFF, whose family belongs to the Tree of Life Synagogue in Pittsburgh, cannot consider anything but a pro-Israel POV. Of course I give her a well-deserved pass, but I would like to be able to re-post this on FB, and really can’t without upsetting her. My point is that I don’t think age is a big indicator; perhaps life experience and cultural background carry more weight.
There was a cease fire. Hamas broke it. Hamas is not interested in negotiating. There are interested in obliterating Israel the state and Judaism the religion. Just because Hamas could not succeed in their goal does not make them the victim. Israel has been dealing with "October 7ths" over and over again for over 75 years. October 7th 2023 itself was the worst.
Israel says ENOUGH!
It's time to make certain that never happens again. Hamas does not get a good faith "Mulligan" like the PLO got for decades only to have them resume their ultimate goal, the destruction of Israel, at a later time under a different name.
To call this a holocaust and Israel the perpetrators shows how ignorant these college students are. They have no knowledge of the history. No knowledge of the peace Israel offered to the PLO just to have them walk away because they didn't get everything they wanted which was ALL of Jerusalem.
Hamas using their own people as human shields is for them to own, not Israel.
"Israel says ENOUGH"? "... time to make certain that never happens again." What do you propose? Hamas is nuts, but red-faced Israel got embarrassed when they failed to listen to their own Intelligence reports. "... their ultimate goal, the destruction of Israel," for God's sake, listen to yourself--it's FUNNY if it weren't so SERIOUS--can't you see?, Israel's goal (political-pill Netanyahu's anyway) is obliterating all Palestinian people. There's an ECHO in here, you figure Netanyahu is nothing but a Hamas with a different rag in his pocket, red team blue team. Get over yourself.
Enough--as in enough of letting Hamas get away with killing people. Hamas leaders still think October 7th was a big success. They don't even care about the deaths of Palestinians.
Complain to the Egyptian government. There is a perfectly good gate from Gaza into Egypt for refugees to escape through. The Egyptians just won't let the Palestinians out, but that's OK, because they are also Arabs, so no one says anything.
I might also point out that if you vote for murderers, you may well have to pay with your own death. Plenty of Israelis already paid for Netanyahu's failures with their own deaths. It's not so surprising that the same has happened to Hamas supporters. It's the children, who had no vote, that I feel sorry for, particularly the ones Hams beheaded or burned to death.
The ceasefire was scheduled for a week or two, if I remember correctly, and then Israel started bombing again. So technically Israel broke the ceasefire.
You are looking at history only through Jewish/Israeli eyes. When Israel was established, far from going to "a land without a people for a people without a land", European Jews were settling in an area that had hundreds of thousands of people who had no say in the confiscation of their lands and homes to create Israel, never received compensation, and had nothing to do with the Holocaust. Over 750,000 people were driven from their homes, 15,000 murdered and 500 Palestinian villages destroyed. Fast forward to more recent times and you find the 17 year siege of Gaza, repeated Israeli attacks on Gaza (2009, 2013, 2018) which Israel euphemistically refers to as "mowing the lawn", the crushing of peaceful protests in 2018 with live ammunition, and the formal establishment of Israel as a Jewish supremacist state (2018) with everybody else second class citizens. Israel regularly drives Palestinians both in Gaza and the West Bank from their homes and steals their land, burns their crops, imprisons them indefinitely without charges or trial, subjects them to 600 checkpoints all over Gaza, controls what enters and leaves Gaza.
Who is the oppressor here and who is the victim?
Why would Hamas try using its own people as human shields? You think that would stop Israel? Israeli snipers have killed children aged 3 and up, ambulance drivers, and women waving white flags.
I was referring to the ceasefire that was broken on October 7th by Hamas.
"You are looking at history only through Jewish/Israeli eyes. When Israel was established, far from going to "a land without a people for a people without a land",
First, Jews have been in that part of the world for thousands of years.
Second, You want to talk about who owned the area? The Jews were Israel going back to Abraham. They were driven out. The Ottoman Empire also ruled that land at one time. The Romans. But, if you want to talk original ownership? The Jews.
Third, You make it sound like the Jews just showed up on May Day 1945.
From Wikipedia under "History of Zionism."
"Biblical precedents
The precedence for Jews to return to their ancestral homeland, motivated by strong divine intervention, first appears in the Torah, and thus later adopted in the Christian Old Testament. After Jacob and his sons had gone down to Egypt to escape a drought, they were enslaved and became a nation. Later, as commanded by God, Moses went before Pharaoh, demanded, "Let my people go!" and foretold severe consequences, if this was not done. Torah describes the story of the plagues and the Exodus from Egypt, which is estimated at about 1400 BCE, and the beginning of the journey of the Jewish People toward the Land of Israel. These are celebrated annually during Passover, and the Passover meal traditionally ends with the words "Next Year in Jerusalem."[4][5][6][7]
The theme of return to their traditional homeland came up again after the Babylonians conquered Judea in 587 BCE and the Judeans were exiled to Babylon. In the book of Psalms (Psalm 137), Jews lamented their exile while Prophets like Ezekiel foresaw their return. The Bible recounts how, in 538 BCE Cyrus the Great of Persia conquered Babylon and issued a proclamation granting the people of Judah their freedom. 50,000 Judeans, led by Zerubbabel returned. A second group of 5000, led by Ezra and Nehemiah, returned to Judea in 456 BCE.[8][9][10]"
And that' just the beginning.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Zionism
You ask, "Why would Hamas try using its own people as human shields?"
For the same reason they committed such gut wrenchingly barbarous acts On innocent Israelis on October 7th. . . . .
That's who they are.
That land has been occupied by many different peoples over the centuries. I don't see how any one group can claim it as their own. The Palestinians have been in that part of the world for centuries. Actually all the people living there, Arabs, Jews, etc. got along well and lived in relative peace and harmony until the Zionists came along in the late 19th century.
Using religion and a god to try to justify what you want and do is fraught with difficulties. Not everybody recognizes the Jewish god, including Muslim Palestinians (they have their own god), and therefore can't be expected to adhere to the Jewish god's dictums.
I think you deliberately missed my point about Hamas and its so called use of human shields as Israel indiscriminately kills any and all Palestinians so there are no such things as human shields.
Hamas exists because Israel has been committing gut wrenchingly barbarous acts against innocent Palestinians for the past 75 years. Israel has been declared an apartheid state by Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, and smaller groups like the American Friends Service Committee (Quakers) and B'Tselem, and Israeli human rights group.
If they could all come to an agreement that both sides are not completely happy with that might work out, because face it not everyone will be happy no matter what.
That's what they've had for 75 years. Unfortunately, many excellent compromises have been offered by the Israelis through the years that were rebuffed immediately because unless the PLO and the layer Arab organization, Hamas, got EVERYTHING they wanted there was no peace. Unfortunately what they want is the total inhilation of the Jews.
College students are idiots. I was going to college on a bootstrap commissioning program during the Viet Nam war, and a group of students were conspiring to have a Kent State, at our university. They tried to take over a meeting of the board, but led by a bearded, sandal wearing statistics professor, who was against the war himself, but was vehement in not wanting the university to become a spectacle much less another Kent State, so he gathered up a few of us students opposed to the idiocy and we stopped the protest in it's tracks. They could fight the "man" but they couldn't fight their peers.
One dude went on top of the tower, and claimed that he would rather die than give in, and I grabbed him by the collar dragged him to the parapet and gave him the chance, he quickly backed up.
What I learned is that these were a bunch of spoiled rich brats, attention seekers, looking for fame and relevancy.
Wow, and over fifty years later, you're still mired in that kind of preposterous stereotyping? "Idiots," LOL - William, I can walk OUTSIDE MY APT. BUILDIING and since I am mere blocks from one of the largest urban campuses on the planet, assemble in the adjacent neighborhoods or on the campus itself, or inside local busnesses, example after example of students 18-22 years old, NOT `SPOILED '- they're working their way through the U. of Minnesota -Twin Cities* - NOT "rich," many are in debt with student loans, of course! , - NOT `attention seekers,' that's likely a "spotlight fallacy" based on online social media sites and people posting videos of their cat chasing away a huge dog or themselves eating some snack food on a dare, etc - ditto the rest of what sounds like an embittered old man with a dubious anecdote that proves absolutely nothing.
Do you see now?
EDIT: Plus AUGSBURG UNIVERSITY*, practically "on" the West Bank U. Campus / Cedar-Riverside { WB/CR = One of Dylan's haunts, years later people like Joe Strummer and of course BONNIE RAITT were around}, MCTC** [Minneapolis Community & Technical College, my long-time GF graduated from there, working class roots & in the cc equivalent of Phi Beta Kappa with her 4.0 GPA, certainly not "spoiled" [except by ME in a loving way!] who has worked last 11 years PT at Sojourner i.e., (battered and /or abused women's & children's shelter in West Metro), plenty of students like her around here, too!...
*Augsburg University is a private university in Minneapolis, Minnesota. It is affiliated with the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America. It was founded in 1869 as a Norwegian-American Lutheran seminary known as Augsburg Seminarium. Today, the university enrolls approximately 3,000 undergraduate and 800 graduate students. Augsburg is known for its emphasis on service learning; volunteering in the community is both an instructional strategy and a required part of a student's coursework. {Nota bene, there are "evangelicals," and then there are "evangelicals," just like all of these labels, they fail miserably at capturing, nuance, subtle and glaring distinctions, intra-organizational disputes, feuds, sects, sectarianism, splits, reformings, the works!}
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augsburg_University
The on-campus diversity is enhanced by Augsburg's location in Cedar-Riverside, the Twin Cities' most culturally diverse neighborhood, which has the nation's largest concentration of Somali immigrants. One of the largest urban Native American populations is within one mile. Augsburg is also in the heart of a major theater center. The university has been designated as a Minnesota Indian Teacher Training Program site. Augsburg maintains a relationship with the United International College, in southern China.[19]
Campus organizations
Augsburg students have opportunities for involvement in more than 50 clubs and organizations, including student academic societies, publications, student government, Augsburg Business Organization, Augsburg Asian Student Association, Campus Ministry, Augsburg University Pre-law Society, Pan-Afrikan and Pan-Asian Student Union, forensics, cheer-leading, Amnesty International, Intertribal Student Union and the Hispanic/Latino Student Association.
**https://minneapolis.edu/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minneapolis_Community_and_Technical_College
Minneapolis College (formerly Minneapolis Community and Technical College) is a public community college in Minneapolis, Minnesota. It has one of the most diverse student populations in the state and enrolls nearly 11,100 credit students annually.[1] Minneapolis College is part of Minnesota State, which offers two-year associate degrees, certificates, and diplomas.[2]
Academics
Minneapolis College offers more than 100 career and occupational programs in aviation, business, education, health, information technology, justice system, manufacturing and construction, media arts, public service and the service industry. The college also has many clubs and societies, including a school newspaper. Minneapolis College has an Aviation Technician program at MSP airport, a Center for Criminal Justice in Saint Paul, and a Health Careers Institute in Minneapolis's Phillips neighborhood.
The thing of it is, all of these students also watched and/or participated and maybe learned quite a bit from being here as a kind of "Ground Zero" for the May 25, 2020 extrajudicial police killing of George Floyd and the following several weeks and months of massive protests and social unrest, including of course the arson, looting, police overreaction (cost the City of Minneapolis millions to settle the lawsuits already) and more that readers of a blog like this can likely supply from their own life experience and education, etc.
Just piling on, I am, to emphasize just how ludicrous the stereotyping of the youth is, our own future no less, sacre bleu mon vieux, c'est incroyable!
Richard, I agree. That level of stereotyping entire generations is outrageous.
Not entire generations. Just spoiled college students--who BTW have no problem stereotyping the baby boomers and openly wishing they would hurry up and die, so they could have their homes & possessions.
Do you not understand what stereotyping is?
Agreed, Richard
I guess I had an advantage over you William, I started college at age 31. Didn't start teaching full time until age 40 and finished my MA at age 44. I found college kids to be highly intelligent, a bit more emotional than me but great thinkers. Of course, I also had the advantage of being a liberal progressive and I attended a publicly owned University so fewer rich kids.
Some college kids are idiots.
Some are not. Sometimes it the ones ho make noise that draw attention.
Actually, yeah, mostly the ones who make noise …
Just like maga cult memvers ...
The ones that committed acts of violence are already in jail.
It's the ones who make it impossible for other students to be safe and attend school that should be expelled and banned from private property. Those who scream "Death To America!" and "Death to All Jews!" should be arrested and removed. Death threats are felonies.
"a Kent State"? You mean they were hoping to get shot by panicked National Guardsmen? I doubt it.
I was part of the anti-Vietnam War movement, and I don't remember anyone wanting to get killed. Few, if any of us, were "spoiled rich brats"; they tended to join the fraternities and sororities and have drunken beer parties instead of caring about their country. I was the first in my family to go to university, and I couldn't have done so if the children of disabled veterans in Indiana had to pay tuition.
So you were afraid of a "spectacle" at your university but not the least bothered about napalming children. Tells me all I need to know about you.
I wondered what William meant by a “Kent State,” as well. A demonstration? The National Guard shooting was a monstrous aberration — NEVER should have happened, using weapons on our own kids who were demonstrating.
I’m all for demonstrating. Not rioting. Not getting shot. But gathering and making voices heard.
How far does "anti-war" go? Do you deny your own right to defend yourself if attacked? Should the Ukrainians just let the Russians kill them all for the sake of "peace"? As in the peace of the graveyard. As for "spoiled rich brats"--if you were too poor to go to college, you would have been drafted with no choice. So, yes you were rich and privileged enough to afford college and get a deferment.
Robin, stop the idiotic hysteria.
Wow, this conversation is degrading.
Dearie, I'm a woman. Women didn't get drafted (which actually pissed me off as I felt it made people take women's opposition to the war less seriously than men's as our lives were not on the line).
They don't think that far Maureen, it is somebody else that gets killed. I remember when I was invincible and the fates took care of me. They just wanted the university to go down as part of the movement, and of course they would be proclaimed hero's and martyrs
I really don't care what you know or think you know. People who try to see high on the horse, are a freaking bore.
Hypocrites with a false sense of moral superiority.
I've been to Lai Khe, where that photo of the girl running naked down the street was taken
It was up the road about 3 clicks from Quan Loi.
The Air force didn't go around willy nilly fire bombing villages and towns either
There was a lot wrong with that war, and the needless death of 50,000 Americans and a million Vietnamese, but most were combatants, and I've seen the carnage wrought on Americans and Vietnamese.
However I have no use for the phony bleeding hearts
"That girl running," is a Canadian. Hm, "People who try to see high on the horse, are a freaking bore. Hypocrites with a false sense of moral superiority." Describes anyone telling anyone "How it is." Or, "How it was."
"The image is of 9-year-old Phan Thi Kim Phuc, Vietnamese girl, fleeing her small village, Trang Bang, where Viet Cong were hiding, June 8, 1972. The village was torched by napalm dropped by South Vietnamese Air Force Skyraider. Kim Phuc is now a Canadian, lives in Ajax, ON Canada. Aug 26, 2023"
Photographer, born 1951, full name Huynh Cong Ut, "Nick Ut’s photo of Kim Phuc was a transformative moment in a horrible conflict." "I saw her skin coming off and I stopped taking pictures. I didn’t want her to die. I put my cameras down on the road. We poured water over this young girl. She kept yelling “nóng quá” (Too hot). We were all in shock." "All the film was developed in about 10 minutes. Associated Press, Southeast Asia, Ishizaki Jackson, an editor, looked at the pictures and asked, “Nicky, why is the girl naked?” I said because she was on fire from the napalm bombs. He heard that and clipped one negative and printed a 5 x 7 of it. The editor on the desk was Carl Robinson. “Oh no, sorry. I don’t think we can use this picture in America.” "At the time, [the South Vietnamese military] didn’t know who I was or that I took the picture of Kim Phuc. They got in a lot of trouble. The American military complained: “Why did you let photographers take that picture?”
"Outside Kim Phuc’s house there were so many Viet Cong and North Vietnamese troops. When the bombing was over, they found their bodies everywhere. They dropped the bombs in exactly the right place. It was not an accident. They didn’t know civilians had been taking refuge in the Cao Dai temple. Before they dropped the napalm, the South Vietnamese army soldiers threw yellow smoke grenades to mark the target near the temple."
"After her picture came out in newspapers, doctors from around the world volunteered to help her." "Kim was in the hospital for a year." "I met Kim for the first time after the war in 1989, in Cuba, where she had gone to study medicine. Her boyfriend Bui Huy Toan was there. He was from Haiphong. Kim told me, “Uncle Nick, I think I’m going to marry him but I don’t think my father will like him because he’s from the North.” But [her father] loved him so much because he takes such good care of Kim."
"When Kim and Toan got married in Cuba, they had no money but people from Cuba and Communist embassies there gave money so they could go on a honeymoon. They went to Moscow in 1992, and on the way back, during a refueling stop in Newfoundland, they asked for political asylum in Canada, which they got. They moved to Toronto. They had two boys. She travelled the world as a Goodwill Ambassador for the U.N." "She’s still in a lot of pain. It’s so lucky that she was photographed. If not, she would have died."
I feel so deeply sad about what you shared and what you saw! I want us to stop killing each other! and I want you to carry peace in your heart--If only I knew what to tell you. I hope t hat love will somehow heal you and the pain that you remember.
So you think that anyone who cares about anyone but themselves is a "hypocrite with a false sense of morality," a "phony bleeding heart."
What, pray tell, then, is true morality, and how does it justify the needless deaths of 50,000 Americans and a million Vietnamese?
Maureen ; Those who made the decisions to go to war in Vietnam were not the ones who went there to engage that war.
“The Air Force didn’t go around willy nilly fire bombing villages and towns…”
William! Stop! So, they didn’t do it “willy nilly,” you somehow think that makes what Richard Nixon DID do OK? You think the massive application of defoliant was OK? You think the napalming that WAS done was OK? You think bombing neighboring countries on the sneak was OK?
NOTHING about that war, after 1968, when the Republicans scuttled the Peace Talks — NOTHING about that war was in any way, shape, or form OK, as Nixon prosecuted it. {We should not have assumed responsibility for it in the first place, after France shafted Ho Chi Minh following WWII, but that’s another whole discussion.}
If you are taking criticism of our soldiers personally, don’t assume I’m anti-Vietnam veteran, because I’m not. We sent a contingent of soldiers over there whose average age was f-ing 19 years old! The average age of soldiers in WWII was 26.
For Vietnam, Nixon grabbed children, shoved them over to a part of the world that presented MASSIVE culture and environmental shock, put them against an “enemy” who appeared to them identical to “friendlies,” and then brought them home, emotional fractured and hurt, and dumped them back on the streets with no decompression or help re-entering OUR culture and environment.
THIS bleeding heart liberal thinks that whole time was a massive abomination, and the kind of people who foisted it on us {heartless Republicans, as opposed to Republicans who DO have hearts, but they are currently in short supply} are trying to take over again now.
I think our youth today don’t know history. Neither do enough old people know it. They think of the sixties as “sex, drugs and rock-n-roll,” and demonstrations and riots.
Lots of people think that’s what was going on back then. People don’t know the history behind the headlines.
{I might be off topic here, but that’s where this went …}
Well Pat if you google the wall, in the area for Sep 1967, you will find the names of ,my team, Tailpipe Charley, Team 3.The reason my name is not on that wall is that I was sick and didn't go out on the mission, so I was replaced.
And no Vietnamese villages weren't willy nilly bombed, there was intel and there was good intel for targeting. I had been to Lai Khe, as I said 3 clicks up the road from Quan Loi. ran through there on a Long Range Patrol.
Napalm is an awful weapon but it is only used on concentrations of the enemy.
I wasn't at Khe Sanh, but a lot of my team mates were. Napalm saved their asses.
The troops had no choice as to where they were deployed, and what it took to save their lives and achieve the mission was very much appreciated, otherwise there would have been a lot more body bags.
I am not going to rehash the VN war, it was not justified, and the bullshit about domino's was just that bullshit. In fact it was the Communists that stopped China, and it as the Communist Vietnamese army that stopped Pol Pot and his murderers.
The Vietnamese were not ideologically motivated, they were fighting for their country, against exploitating French. Ho Chi Minh needed material support, weapons, cannons, munitions and of course he was offered them by the Chinese and Russians. Ergo he was a "communist".
So much for Communist Vietnam, you can buy a McDonalds burger of a KFC in Saigan, Ho Chi Minh City..
Exxon has the sole source contract to pump to exploit the oil fields in the Bay of Tonkin.
It is no coincidence that Navy pilots were instructed to unload their unexpended bombs in a special zone, where they are coincidentally drilling for oil now. seismic detectors are used to identify oil fields.
I lived in Ap chien Luoc khom nam, Strategic Hamlet#5, spoke and read enough Vietnamese to make friends and save my life, twice, Once in Dalat and the second time on the night o the Tet Offensive, That is a war story and a half.
I lived with Trunsi Khan and his family (Sgt Khan), the Hamlet chief, and Trunsi Khan played both sides for survival. I knew who in the neighborhood was VC, all of them, for survival.
And I knew who had sons out in the field, VC, fighting the Americans. Even the VC didn't touch me.I respected the people, and they in turn respected me.
I will tell you this though, the employment of napalm and 500 lb bombs, saved a lot of American lives, including my team mates and friends.
War is a bitch, did you know that more French died from American artillery and bombs, than German.
We, the world, western civilization, is so fortunate that there were no campus idiots, no bleeding heart liberals, during WWII, if not we might be doing our own Seig Heils to an American Fuhrer, on the east side of the Mississippi, and bowing to the Emperor west of the Mississippi.
Instead we have ignorant, self indulgent, self righteous, fame seeking, moralizers.
I conclude Pat by saying that it wasn't the war protesters that stopped the war,much as they like to pat themselves on the back. Protests are pressure relief valves, and are actually encouraged, by agent provocateurs.
It was the50,,000 young men coming back in body bags,that stopped the war, so effective that Bush even forbade photo's of the unloading of aluminum caskets at Dover AFB, and the filming of military burials.
I was at Yale this weekend for an event not related to the occupation but I visited it several times. It was beautiful, music, artwork, food and lots of books - the theme was books not bombs. The crowd was mostly young and diverse. Tents were set up. It was at a lightly used part of campus easy to traverse. I had great conversations and felt safe and welcome. They are asking Yale to divest from companies that produce military weapons. I was approached by a reporter to ask me why I was there, he explained I was an unusual demographic being in my 60s. That was Friday night as the weekend went on I saw the number of elders grow with each visit. I'm grateful for the young people calling us to consider the impacts of supporting weapons of war 🕊️☮️
Try going there wearing a Jewish star, and your experience will be totally different. Even a Jewish professor was warned to stay away for his own safety. How long before all Jews are unable to attend? Yale has become an ugly, ugly place. Covering over the rot within with art work hides nothing. Just because they haven't officially started burning books yet is no excuse. No doubt books written by Right wingers have already been banned from the libraries there. The Left even hates Dr. Seuss books.
And that's an insult to juniors and seniors in high school EVERYWHERE... So called adults have run the world from day one and things couldn't be more screwed up.
This point is missed so often it boggles...
And not only are they handed a defective world on the day they become adults, they are categorized as shiftless and lazy, or overactive and crazy. They'll be led to the front lines, they'll be paid little, and told to be quiet when they grumble.
The kids that are speaking up are making sense, and they aren't backing down. And what's more, time is on their side. Except this climate we get poisoning.
They are handed a "defective" world, because all humans have the same defects, but every generation still thinks they're superior.
[sigh] The point of my comment is that whether the world is defective or not, it is those that complain the loudest of its condition just after they bequeath it to others are boggling to me. It's like screaming at someone after they've bought their new home from you that they've stained the fence a darker shade of brown.
I was referring to emotional levels - not intelligence. You are right though some of the Adults in the room have and continue to screw things up. And younger people, emotional or not, do 'wake' some of those adults up. The problem in America is that since 1981 we have allowed the greediest of adults to set the stage, and too many of us were too busy with 'living' top notice just how screwed up we were.
I know what you meant. Don't take it personal. The problem is that children grow up and lose their innocence...(((Sigh)))
Yes they do!
Ever read Lord of the Flies? Children can be every bit as violent and horrible as adults. They are still human.
Lord of the flies is fiction that has distorted our image of children. Google the real life experience of children stranded on an island who worked together effectively and with care for each other for over a year until they were discovered. The stories we tell ourselves have real impact.
Doesn't help that they learn from... adults.
And these students are the same age as so many of the IDF. Devastation on both sides caused by young, young minds and bodies.
Nancy Sorensen ; I read that the median age of those in Gaza is 18 years old. Or it was before Oct 7. all of them knew nothing but war, and nothing about peace and self determination.
Gaza had self rule for almost twenty years. This is what the Palestinians did with it. If they know nothing but war and hate, it's the fault of Hamas. Not that Hamas leaders care a fig for even the lives of their own people. They only care for their own power.
Russian deserters — there’s a great idea …
Do you believe there are "Russian bots" active in "social media"...? Note: the error message above:"Comment removed" is a mystery to me after I got 12 LIKEs....!!!
From what I hear, the Ukrainian commitment to NOT allowing Russia to take over has propelled people who’ve lost arms and legs to remain in military service….
I’m not kidding myself or anyone else that getting Russians to desert THEIR armies would solve any problems. But … you know … why not encourage it anyway …
{I'm way more in favor of us helping Ukraine to repel Russia’s invasion, NOT with US boots on the ground, but with resourcs to do the job — but I don’t pretend to be able to predict how that will eventually work out. I’m NOT in favor of US imperial adventures all over the world, but I AM in favor of helping Ukraine to push Russia back—and helping them with robust resources to do it.}
I find it amazing that it only took several hours for the two sides to come to an agreement after such a long and violent history of hate and war and anguish on both sides. I wish it had been recorded somehow.
If only some person or entity could achieve this between the two sides. With the current players it does not seem possible. Thank you, Mr Reich.
There are many cross-cultural organizations in Israel and in support of Israel in the U.S. I have participated in two: Bridges to Peace, in which we as a Jewish family in Denver hosted two Palestinian young women; and now Standing Together. I wish these organizations were receiving more attention. These are the peacemakers. This needs to be the future.
Peacemakers are the "angels" among us!
Only because they maybe become angels after they are killed by the haters. "Pro Palestinians" want the peacemakers dead, too, if they're Jewish.
Not everybody wants to kill. There are those among us who want to find another way. Those are the peacemakers and they exist on both sides if we look for them. I know there are many that are not peacmakers. Those are not open to change or to possibility. They are NOT the peacemakers.
These protestors are NOT the peacemakers. They want Jews dead, and some don't even bother to hide it. People who scream "Death To America!" and "Kill All The Jews!" do NOT want peace. That's pretty obvious if you stop to think for just a minute. If you want to find another way, start by not attacking people for their religion. Jewish American students have no control at all over the Israeli government.
Hamas does NOT want peace. Putin does NOT want peace. You can't make people want what you want. Power and wealth are far more attractive to many people than peace. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.
Well, said Wildflower
I think people have a hard time supporting a universal moral position when they start from inside an emotional, passionate sense of advocacy. I'm guessing that the students needed to express their pain and outrage first. I'm impressed that they got there at all - I'm seeing lots of adults, even leaders, who can't or won't extend universal moral principles to the group they oppose/blame.
An immediate jolt! A better group discussion would have been between Palestinians and Israelis or Jews and Moslems. To have an opinion, one would have to live in Israel or experience having UCB bombed daily from Oakland and Richmond with the express purpose of doing away with it and anyone claiming it is legitimate. No one wants war or the death of children. Israel is as legitimate as (Trans) Jordan or Syria or Iraq. I recommend all "protestors" visit and then go to Gaza and proclaim some minority rights and a progressive agenda.
Remember this is the Far left that celebrated on October 7th. Reich was lucky to get them to agree that murdering "colonizers" was at all wrong.
Being against discrimination against BOTH Israelis and Palestinians is contradictory given current attitudes and hatred in the region. So it's AMAZING that they could get these seven principles in writing in several hours.
Many Israeli citizens are actually Arabs. I gather they don't count? Despite the fact that many still call themselves Palestinians? You seem to be assuming that all Israeli citizens are Jewish, which is incorrect. Most Jews around the world are not Israeli citizens, and there are Arabs that have full Israeli citizenship--including the right to vote in Israel's elections. One of those is a Judge on the Israeli Supreme Court.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel
In a heated and emotionally freighted discussion of morality within the framework of two opposing and historically antagonistic religions, I'm impressed that they came to any agreement at all.
Thank you Professor. As a Jew, I have been ambivalent about the state of Israel since Rabin was assassinated, and Netanyahu took office.
I support Israel; however, not with impunity. For the last three decades we’ve watch as Israel has continued its stranglehold in the West Bank and East Jerusalem and Gaza. Denying rights to Palestinians, and illegally annexing land and creating settlements. The latest just several weeks ago (2000 acres in the West Bank) after Biden announced he would not support further incursions into Gaza.
Hamas on the other hand, has been committed to Israel’s destruction since its inception; as part of its charter. Today we have Israeli’s and Palestinians who are equally committed to the other’s destruction. The religious zealots in both camps: Hamas, Islamic Jihad and the right-wing messianic Jews.
The problem with a two state solution is there isn’t any trust on either side. The fanatics increasingly move each side further to extremes, because they continue to commit extreme violence on both sides, which is counterproductive; and their ultimate goals of the fanatics. It’s been extremely effective.
As for America’s youth, protesting on college campuses? I have to take issue with the violence, threats and their misunderstanding of who exactly Hamas is. It’s one thing to protest the Israeli government and policies, but another to ostracize an entire group of people and call for their destruction.
I was always taught that Israel was created with a higher moral purpose; and the mistreatment of Palestinians is the antithesis of Israel’s creation. And all of us who turn a blind eye to Israel’s atrocities are no better than Hamas and complicit.
Israel cannot act like Hamas if it wants a place in polite society, and earn its reputation back. There’s a reason Hamas has no seat in the UN: it’s illegitimate. The UN recognizes the Palestinian National Authority as the Palestinian’s legitimate government: in the West Bank, East Jerusalem and Gaza.
Israel on the other hand, is becoming illegitimate in the eyes of many, including our European Allies, and dragging the US’s reputation through the mud as well.
Bottom line: something’s got to give; the status quo isn’t holding, and the center is imploding….:)
I agree with much of what you say but also have a number of problems with it specifically with regard to Hamas. Hamas, was tolerated and even wanted by Netanyahu, as you know, to divide the Palestinians under the PLO, Fatah. Hamas was willing to moderate at one point and it's still a good bet that they would- better than this war. I am tired of Israel and "pro Israel side" pointing to the Hamas charter as an excuse. Their radicals are no more radical than Israel's. Israel has the weapons and has been brutal in their occupation.. that's not terrorism? Peaceful resistance has been impossible. Need I go on? Palestinians have lost their lives many more times the number of Israelis over the many years of occupation. And now the worst is happening.. almost complete devastation, some call it genocide. What do Israeli's know or care of this?
The reason Hamas has no seat in the UN is because it is a resistance group, not a state. What good is the PNA or the PLO when there is a blockade of Gaza and occupation has no prospect of ending?
Israel is the stronger, armed to the teeth and backed by the US. Yet it cries "existential threat"!! Israel will not, even now, take a chance to give Palestinians something to live for, rather than die for: their own state.
The US needs to condition it's help to Israel. The US is compllicit in this disaster.
Fact Checks:
Gaza hasn't been occupied since 2005.
PLO doesn't govern Gaza.
Gaza also has a border with Egypt, plus a tunnel network that moves goods and people in and out of Egypt. They also received free utilities from Israel.
They could have had statehood and peace at many points, if only they would accept Israel and stop attacking it.
I meant Hamas was elected in Gaza. Israel then imposed a blockade. You think Palestinians are supposed to roll over and comply? Would Israel if the situation were reversed? Might makes right in this situation so Hamas took its cue. Israel has and had NO intention of allowing Palestinians equality within Israel or a state of their own. Israel wants the Palestinians to go elsewhere, give up. And now what?? Israel has in its reaction to October 7th destroyed Gaza, has a Huge problem now that the rest of us are going to fix and pay for? Israel will have to give up its vision of Greater Israel first.
The blockade was because of the constant rockets firing from Hamas.
AND, Gaza also has a border with Egypt!!!
It is NOT Israel's responsibility to supply weapons or supplies to terrorists hell-bent on destroying them. When countries are hostile to the USA, we stop trading with them. It's a no-brainer. Do we give North Korea weapons and money?
If they had not constantly been attacking Israel, it would have gone differently.
None of this was ever about Israel wanting all the land. Israel tried to give the West Bank back to Jordan and Gaza back to Egypt. They would not take them.
Israel offered statehood to Palestine 6 times in its history. Palestine always turned it down. They would accept no statehood unless it was ALL of it, "from the river to the sea." That's the history.
Palestinians want and deserve their own state or equality within Israel They are not Jordanian, nor Egyptian. This was the deal when Israel was recognized as a state after partition. After 1967 Israel got greedy. They questioned Palestinian rights to the land. They denied they were a legitimate people. They took their villages and lands.
Neither Egypt nor Jordan wanted to absorb the Palestinians, though Jordan did anyway, to let Israel off the hook. Palestinians that remained had legitimate attachments and claims to the land that they wanted to resolve. Israel NEVER "offered" Palestinians a state; never agreed to it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-state_solution#
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egypt–Gaza_border#:~:text=Only%20passage%20of%20persons%20takes,on%20the%20Gaza–Israel%20barrier.
The Palestinians have rejected a two state solution over and over. They are the greedy ones. They want it ALL--starting with murdering all the Jews from the river to the sea. They chant it often enough. When people tell you want they want, you should believe them.
They do NOT have freedom through Egypt and did not. The constant rockets were resisting the blockade. Catch 22. Which came first? The oppression military occupation or the rockets? People with no freedom want freedom. There was no peace process.. thanks to Sharon and Netanyahu.
Who is and was hellbent on destroying who? Israel, the right wing in power for decades, has wanted all the land. They have been saying one thing to us and another to their people. Israel NEVER offered statehood. This is a lie. 6 times. You are buried in propaganda. And what was offered, take it or leave it, was VERY short of that. It is ISRAEL that wants and IS settling all the land.. go there and look and listen now. Some are even drooling over GAZA once they clear it out of Palestinians.
You are spreading lies and propaganda yourself. Projection definition: the process of displacing one's feelings onto a different person, animal, or object. It is you who wants to clear Israel of Jews. Palestinians get money for every Jew they kill.
https://luisafrodriguez.medium.com/four-times-palestinians-rejected-a-two-state-solution-27d8c05254b1
There are many Arabs with full Israeli citizenship, of which one is on the Israeli Supreme Court. If Israel lets Hamas in with no restrictions, they will just kill more innocent people, and some of them would probably even be Arabs. Maybe Arab lives have a little value to you? Or maybe not.
Palestinians do not have FULL Israeli citizenship, full rights. Arabs can be Jews. Jews have full rights. Israel kills many times more innocent people, Palestinians. This is a fact. over 34,000 now in Gaza most of them innocent. Your defense of Israel's terrorism and occupation shows you do not care about Arabs at all.
Your alternate facts you mean. Gaza is considered occupied. Israel propaganda says it’s not.
The PLO does not govern Gaza correct but Palestinians consider themselves one political entity , divided internally fostered by Israel. Hamas governs Gaza and was erected. Then blockaded by Israel land sea air, israel went in, goes in, at will.and destroys. There should not be resistance?? This is still considered occupation. Your line parrots Israel propaganda perfectly. They Palestinians, never had a chance to be free of Israel. Never. Israel’s conditions never allowed it and won’t. When talks came close Sharon and then Netanyahu took the table away. Name ONE point. Your opinion is factually wrong. It’s total propaganda.
Trump pulls the same trick. He calls others liars while telling the most heinous lies himself.
This trick only goes so far. When we call Trump a liar and say he is projecting. He is lying. There is a basis in TRUTH.
There is such a thing as TRUTH. There is such a thing as right and wrong. And then there is a lot in between to argue about. But when you pull out the accusation of "projection" its in the service of saying the other person is guilty of what they are accusing others of. That is a cancellation. When you say I am projecting, even when I am pointing to facts, you are cancelling me. I am muting you. No discussion possible. This is what Trump does. He cancels the truth.
You are misguided and misinformed and adamant about it. You can take a side honestly, but it's dishonest to give false "facts" and for instance say that Palestinians have been offered a state and rejected it. They got close and Israel pulled away. Bottom line, Israel does not want two states. It shows you have not studied the history, or maybe just one version, one side. Right now might makes right and israel has the might.. and the US is helping. Morally Israel is not right.
You are misusing the definition of "projection" (this is a fad now) to defend what you say. This is itself a projection and it is used as an accusation.. to cancel the truth you don't like. I am muting you.
It's much easier if your enemies are too busy fighting each other to attack you. Hamas has no seat at the UN, because it's a TERRORIST group. No terrorist group has a seat at the UN.
Gaza was already de facto its own state for almost 20 years. It was self governing, but elected a terrorist group that spent all the money on tunnels and bombs instead of helping the people there. They live for hate. Children are already indoctrinated by age 5. They celebrate when people die in the intifada, because it means they will go to heaven. To them, death while killing Jews makes you a hero. It's a death cult.
Israel responds to rockets with bombs and enormous devastation. Rockets into Israel are terrorism but Israel's bombs are not? What does "terrorism" mean to you? Gaza was NEVER EVER its own state. It does not have independence. It does not have SOVEREIGNTY. It is BLOCKADED. So if it was sovereign, as you falsely claim, it would follow that Hamas was elected its LEGITIMATE leader. When the word "terrorist" is used it can also be a STATE that is doing the terrorizing, like Israel.. now in the West Bank, where SANCTIONED terrorism is used by Israel on peaceful people.
According to humanitarian law, people have a right to rise against oppression. Israel has been "terrorizing" Gaza since after Israel for its own strategic reasons unilaterally left in 2005 with no deal, no agreement. Israel did not like Hamas rule and then imposed a blockade. It takes TWO sides to make this war. When Israel unilaterally left Gaza, with no deal between the sides, it separated the Palestinians one from another, and split it from the West Bank, taking advantage of the divisions. But Israel was and is an occupier and responsible according to every definition of occupation, including international law.
Any side can claim it is fighting terrorism. The other side cannot respond?
Hamas has sought to gain weapons to fight Israel, the rockets. Hamas believe that is the only way to fight Israel, with might; there is no peace process and Israel does not want a peace process, that is clear. There have been periods of ceasefire.
In 2008 Hamas agreed to moderate and accept any deal the Palestinians agreed to with Israel. Israel ended the peace process when Sharon came into power and then Netanyahu, even though at the time with Olmert, the negotiations were very close.
ISRAEL does not want to give up the land, they want all of it. That is clear. They want to isolate the Palestinians, occupy them behind walls and gates, take their land push them to leave, make them miserable. The more they uprise, the more Israel can claim it is fighting terrorism.
Get your facts straight.
The peacemakers on both sides are tryinig to unite and work together. I know, because I signed into one on these groups. It will take time, but they will succed! We must all raise the consciousness of love, acceptance, respect and compassion. " "Blessed are the peacemakers for they shall be called children of God."
I can’t like your comments enough! You nailed it. 💯
Thank you Robert Jaffee for your thought provoking article. "The mistreatment of Palestinuans is the antithesis of Israel". Would that that were believed more widely but thank you for reminding us.
My politics on the democratic Left notwithstanding - this makes some vitally important points:
https://www.danielpipes.org/22223/my-six-step-plan-for-a-two-state-solution?utm_source=Middle+East+Forum&utm_campaign=7fdcf49781-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2024_04_04_12_38&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_086cfd423c-7fdcf49781-%5BLIST_EMAIL_ID%5D&goal=0_086cfd423c-7fdcf49781-33654329&mc_cid=7fdcf49781&mc_eid=e9890ace88
Good articles. Agreed that changes need to be made on all sides; especially the PA leadership. I believe Abbas even recently agreed to step down, being replaced by the PM.
That said, No one said it would be easy, but if they’re negotiating, they’re not fighting….:)
Make it so, I am a panentheist, a kind of "World Soul" energy is needed!
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/pantheism/
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/panentheism/
A two state solution has been offered many times since the creation of Israel--and the Palestinians refused every time. Terrorist groups like Hamas want it ALL. The River to the Sea chant has been around for decades. The English version just more recently leaves out the part about murdering all the Jews between those bodies of water and dumping them in the Sea, but it's still implied. "Palestine shall be free" means free of JEWS. So insane that most of the "protestors" have little idea of what that means--or maybe they do and are lying about it.
I’m not talking about negotiating with Hamas, I’ve stated as much, but the offer occurred in the 1990’s, and Israel refused to allow the Palestinians equal resource rights or full control over the territories. The Palestinians didn’t even have the ability to raise taxes, all went through Israel. The deal would have been similar to just self rule in Gaza, with no control over movement or resources (electricity and water) or tax revenue.
There needs to be a path to self rule and self reliance. I agree about Hamas; they can’t be negotiated with.
Thank you, Professor Reich. It would be helpful for key people in the Biden administration, and Biden himself, to read your posting. Supporting any government or entity that commits the kinds of moral atrocities acted upon by both Hamas and Israel unconditionally with weapons to carry out such acts is also morally wrong. A fear that crops up often in my mind is that Biden's unconditional arming of Israel could cost him the election, if enough people stay at home and not vote to make a difference. Terrifying...
My worries, too. The Opinion section of the NYTimes yesterday had Biden sitting in a desk underneath a monumental boulder of the Gaza war. I came in late, saw it, and went to bed.
And in addition We Have A Corrupt prime minister who has no compulsion about murdering innocents on both sides to prolong his time in office and avoid prosecution for his crimes…
There cannot be any peace until BB Nu dies, and or retires from public office…
That condition of peace is in gods hands and not in humans tool box…
Israel hasn't committed atrocities. It's a war against Hamas, which Hamas started. Hamas explicitly wants to wipe them out to make another Islamic state-- One without freedom of religion or democracy or human rights.
Wiping out Hamas is necessary. They are a terrorist group, not an endangered indigenous ethnic group.
Hamas reports casualty numbers that are inflated, and do not distinguish combatants from civilians, and also include anyone that dies for any reason, such as a rocket misfire from Islamic Jihad.
Jesus, people.
It isn't unconditional, and that propaganda onslaught of constantly having headlines with "Over 30, 000 Palestinians dead" - based on Hamas figures! - that completely omits the huge percentage who are Hamas terrorists, is only one part of the problem.
https://camera-uk.org/2024/02/06/can-there-be-a-decent-pro-palestinian-left/
This is a good article and great approach. May I point out, though, that Netanyahu's messaging and direct wording during this whole affair (as well as his reported part resulting in the Hamas attack) is saying that Israelis don't respect the lives of Palestinians. This has been evident in the segregation, too. So although this calls for a two-state solution, it does so largely because Israel has attempted to be a democracy for all of its citizens and a state that identifies by religious affiliation will always fail others - whether Muslim or Jewish.
And a side note: That is why our nation's Constitution based on the ideal of equal rights and separation of faith from fact-based governing is uniquely an opportunity for our democracy. A democracy without education or a democracy based on religious discrimination eventually fails all.
It is sad that today we find ourselves unable to acknowledge Jews in this nation who see that the policies of Netanyahu fail the nation of Israel and its peoples. It is sad that the protestors in Israel get so little attention at this time, when Netanyahu (supporter of Trump) fails to care what they protest and wants to hold onto power (like Trump).
It is sad that Jewish students against those policies in universities and city streets here are being discriminated against as much as Palestinians are being wrongly identified as Hamas.
It is time to talk about the issues of the nation of Israel instead of just claiming anyone against the Israeli state's actions are anti-Semitic. I realize that is difficult with true anti-Semitism growing with the autocracy of Republicans today in this nation.
However, separation of faith from fact-based governing and an ideal of equality of all citizenry is the only way to a worthwhile democracy.
You know nothing about Israel. Arab Party. Arabs in the Knesset. Arabs (Druze) serve voluntarily in the military. Oslo Accords are still US policy.
Should we mention the more than 50 laws that discriminate against the Palestinian citizens of Israel, such as the prohibition to live in certain communities; the limitations on who they can marry; the substandard schools for their children, etc. I guess we could call the practice of these laws Israel’s Jim Crow.
Thank you.
So your solution to the fact that Israel has problems like every other country is to kill all the Jews? Martin Luther King succeeded because he was nonviolent. You can't negotiate with people to trust you with more freedom while you are trying to kill them.
Israel is one of the last settler colonial regimes, and as such, it follows the patterns of other settler colonial entities, such as the U.S., Canada, Australia, Belgium, Denmark, the Netherlands, France etc. All of these nations invaded lands where they did not live and ethnically cleansed, committed genocide and held the indigenous people hostage, creating laws that forced the indigenous people to live under apartheid conditions. The actual fact of being killed is borne out by the Israeli killing of tens of thousands of Palestinians as far back as 1947-48 & even before the creation of the regime. The present genocide of surely more than 60K Palestinians is proof of who the real murderers are. A people under occupation have the right to resist.
Christcr, in case you missed it, This last sentence of yours: "However, separation of faith from fact-based governing and an ideal of equality of all citizenry is the only way to a worthwhile democracy."
Applies many fold to Islam, to HAMAS, Hezbollah, Iran and FATAH.
In case you didn't know it, there are 57 Muslim ethnostates in the world, and none of them recognize real democratic values for women, gays, minorities.
Israel, on the other hand, does, at least until the Likkud and it's allies in the orthodox community take full control of the government.
Friendly fire means it was an accident. That unfortunately happens all the time in wars. Ammunition sometimes misses its target.
Additional: Why isn't murdering Israeli civilians bad PR for Hamas? They think it lands them in heaven.
Putin parrot.
Unfortunately, Trump is NOT a man of compassion!
Crap what’s you idea of News Pravda
Or Russian state Policy organ ???
Putin trying to kill everyone for his ego to feel an aging lawyer playing Poltics’s and skimming as much money as possible…
Israel: "I want peace with you."
Hamas: "I want peace without you."
Israel: "Not even negotiation?"
Hamas: "Never!"
Israel: "You aren't really in a position to..."
Hamas: "No peace; a fight to the death!"
Israel: "Fine, have it your way!"
Hamas: "Nooooo! Ceasefire now!"
Israel: "Ok, but you have to ceasefire too."
Hamas: "No."
Israel: .....
You cannot negotiate with an enemy whose end position is your non-existence.
True, but you can’t negotiate with a right-wing government whose position is to dangle a two state solution in their faces, with no intention of ever achieving one. There’s a reason the right-wing Israeli’s assassinated Rabin; they too, don’t believe in a two state solution; and they are stronger today than in the late 90’s.
And you miss the main point. Hamas isn’t the internationally recognized government of the Palestinian people in the West Bank or Gaza. The UN and most of the world, outside of a few ME countries and Russia, recognize the Palestinian National Authority as the legitimate government and authority of the Palestinian people.
Netanyahu has done everything possible to weaken the Palestinian Authority, and allowed Qatar and the UAE to strengthen Hamas over the years with financial aid.
We need a new Israeli government willing to make a deal, and we need to strengthen the PA, while weakening Hamas and cutting off their funding. Additionally, the world needs to hold both sides’s hands through the process. We can longer allow either side to operate on its own accord.
The status quo is not holding, and the center is falling apart. Time for change!…:)
Here is a sad fact. A two state solution will result in another Gaza times two.
What we have in the Levant is a religious war, one initiated by Muhammad and the Rashidun Caliphate. If you read the Quran and Haddiths there would be no question.
Muhammad had the entire tribe of Jews (Quaryza) (600) in all beheaded, six at a time, in the market of Medina, probably why Medina is considered sacred next to Mecca.
The war against the Jews is carried further in the haddiths, in particular the haddith of al Bukhari, verses 1295/1296, book 56, haddith 139 al Bukhari.
I agree! Killing accomplishes nothing except to create more hatred!
Yep, if you kill one, then you best kill all. As the saying goes if you set out to kill the king, you better not miss.
That goes both ways …
My personal opinion and i have said it long before this war. The Jews should not have been given this country in the middle of their sworn enemies. It was a program for just what is happening. Religion at its worse. Glad to be a non believer.
It was a different time after the war. Millions were dead, Europe was in rubble, Japan had experienced the ultimate weapon twice, the UN was new and ready to roar and people were tired of conflict, really tired. It was a new day of hope and charity and the Balfour Declaration and a battered Britain which was no longer able to manage Palestine. It was not so much religion because Israel was to be a secular home for all Jews. Today, we have an Israel bristling with defensive and offensive weapons, an apartheid policy towards it’s Arab citizens and a destructive bent towards Gaza and Hamas. I was there at the inception but Israel today is breaking my heart
I see that you have swallowed Arab propaganda hook line and sinker, and missed RR's message.
There is blame a plenty for the dire situation in Gaza, and it all lies on HAMAS, who slaughtered, brutally, thousands of Jewish babies, children, women, disabled and elderly and hauled 240 of them back as hostages, to use along with their own citizens as human shields.
Every dead Gazan, every dead Jew lies in the lap of HAMAS.
I am aware of the crimes and cruelty of Netanyahu and the Israeli right, but that does not justify the actions of HAMAS, if you think it does, then you too are a heartless, psychopath.
Israel has been an assessor in its dealings with the others in the area. Hamas is guilty but Israel created the hate.
You went from mindless, unfair, demonstrably false stereotyping of students as "idiots" to stating something (albeit a bit hyperbolically, but this debate or discussion generates strong feeling!) I endorse, thanks!
Calling people names does nothing to facilitate conservation nor peace!
Because you say so, freak.?
Thank you Professor Reich great ideas. Would they work with a larger crowd or do you advise training moderators who in turn would be able to break up the crowd and discuss in smaller groups?
Fay, you raise an important question. A protest is not an exchange of ideas. It is a statement of a position, a statement that can be easily distorted in an instant by outsiders hostile to the protesters. Protest organizers need to be extremely cautious, especially when emotions are so strong. The danger of violence is high. In the current situation, Universities should hold workshops, with professors acting as moderators. Protests should be discouraged as much as possible.
- The Israeli armed settler movement (and related infrastructure) in the occupied territories is morally wrong
That I agree with, 100%.
It shows, as in most cases, that both sides are at fault and no one side is perfect. One sideism is a faulty premise.
When winning is everything collateral damage does not matter. Republicans consciously and unconsciously are saying loss of democracy for a Trump win is tolerable collateral damage. Tens of thousands of women and children have been killed in Gaza while Palestinians starve to death as Israel “defends” itself with American help. Ethnic cleansing-genocide is desired by some and tolerated by the many as collateral damage. Collateral damage gives license to remove any morality we might have had.
The casualties are about 15, 000 Hamas and NO WAY are 2/3 "women and children," either, neither is this "ethnic cleansing genocide," although that IS the main goal of Hamas! They positively glory in it.
Israel -roughly size of New Jersey; 1200 dead, in the USA that proportion would be FORTY THOUSAND DEAD, in one day!
The US would have dropped even more bombs even faster, if a determined terrorist state enemy was on our borders doing that, And promising more.
Can't stand Trump, been excoriating him since 2016, he and the MAGATS have nothing to do with this discussion.
The numbers of casualties are grossly inflated by the HAMAS "Ministry of Health", they know that Americans are susceptible to propaganda and images and play us ;like a violen.
Half of the casualties are HAMAS fighters, but HAMAS is not telling us that.
HAMAS has the blood of it's own citizens on it's hands, because they use them as human shields. Muslims believe that this is a Jihad, and people who died in Jihad are martyr's. Martyr's are celebrated not mourned. Yahya Sinwa said "we are a nation of martyr's and will keep coming back, again and again",
How does one fight such an enemy.?The solution is for Israel and the Jews to commit suicide.
Nonviolent?? Where were you on January 6? Good grief!!!!
According to the AP, " More than 1,230 people have been charged with federal crimes in the riot, ranging from misdemeanor offenses like trespassing to felonies like assaulting police officers and seditious conspiracy. Roughly 730 people have pleaded guilty to charges, while another roughly 170 have been convicted of at least one charge at a trial decided by a judge or a jury. . . .Dozens of people believed to have assaulted law enforcement during the riot have yet to be identified by authorities, according to Graves [US Attorney for DC]."
You are totally ignorant of the facts. You are a victim of the Trump disease, listening only to his narcissistic and dangerous lies. Trump belongs in prison for the rest of his life!
We the people will decide on that.
I sure hope so, provided we are listening to the truth and not Propagancda!
Paul, you don't give a shit about Gazans, and you don't give a shit about the genocide of Ukraine either, just Trump and thus Putin.
Oh My God!
Because Trump has indicated that he wants to be an autocrat like Putin, etc. He wants his enemies to be put in jail or killed. He wants to destroy the "free" press. Trump is a dangerous man who lacks empathy, compassion and cares only for himself. He is a narcisist! He wants power in order to control you!
Trump's neo-fascist authoritarian project IS to end democracy.
Thank you for this, Professor Reich. Such moral clarity is a challenge when everyone is stressed. Certainly, we are all are now. I am a block away from the Columbia campus with the noise of helicopters overhead. There are drones, but they are silent, hovering above, attached to vehicles either from the police or news outlets; I can't tell. I counted 15 NYPD vehicles around the entrance to my building when I went outside earlier. Today I learned that not everyone arrested in support of Palestine was a Columbia or Barnard student, but that the students who were arrested were also suspended. A rabbi counseled Jewish students to go home for Passover and their personal safety, but Hillel has counseled that they should be safe on campus. At a time like this I wish Columbia's president would talk to its students, much as you did. I see no reason why the presidents of private universities should have to answer to Congress. Rather than prove they are tough enough to quiet this debate should not be the issue. It is a teachable moment, and you were smart enough to recognize that.
It’s pitiful that you did not discuss Israel’s 75+ years of ethnic cleansing of Palestinians from historic Palestine. It’s pitiful that you didn’t discuss the 17-year Israeli blockade & siege of Gaza with more than 5 wars, not counting this genocide. It’s pitiful that you can’t use the words apartheid & genocide, words that the ICJ & human rights organizations use. To talk about Israel and Gaza requires laying bare the history of Israel’s oppression, destruction, and continued ethnic cleansing of Palestinians.
75 years of ethhic cleansing Sanna. You mean the attempted genocide of Jews when it's Arab neighbors tried to obliterate it in Nov 1948, they failed, they tried again in 1956, failed, again in 1967, failed, tried again in 1973 failed, tried again in 2006 and 2024, failed, and each time they tried and failed, Israel acquired more land from the people who tried to genocide them, for safety and security and you call that ethnic cleansing.
How about the continued genocide attempt of the Jews.
Please, Ms Towns. Are you suggesting that Jewish people have no similar claims to make? As long as there has been a Middle East there has been conflict. In order to survive in the post WWII world Jewish people had to justify their standing on 2 fronts: the British who did not want them to have a nation state and Arabs who did not want them. We all have wounds to heal.
The argument you put forth is both a justification and an excuse for hatred. Can you not think of a way to transcend currently cemented beliefs on both sides? Must we live in a state of mutually desired extermination?
As I see it, we need to acknowledge each other’s pain and determine how to move forward or all we are left with is another writer’s assertion of Kabuki theatre
Of course Jewish people have legitimate claims. I know well your history. Unfortunately, whenever the history of Palestinians under Israeli ethnic cleansing, occupation, apartheid & genocide is made public, there are folks like you who refuse to acknowledge that history. You immediately resort to words like hatred or antisemitism. Either you don’t want to come to terms with Israel’s violence against Palestinians or as it appears here, you wish to deflect with statements such as yours. For a people who have suffered so dearly as yours, you should join the many Jews worldwide who are condemning Israeli practices. It may be painful for you to acknowledge the facts of what Israel is, but as centered in the Jewish American produced film “Israelism,” it is the confronting of the myths of Israel that are so difficult for many Jews. And also note, my criticism of Reich’s piece was not about Jews, but about Israel. Israel does not represent all Jews. To think that it does is also antisemitic. Btw, quit the lie of there’s always been conflict in the ME; before the arrival of European Zionism to Palestine, Palestinian Jews, Muslims & Christians lived peacefully.
Sanna genocide requires intent to obliterate a religion or an ethnicity. Israel is not guilty of genocidal intent, on the other hand Islam is. Read the HAMAS Convention or sahih 1295 and 1296, book 56, hadith 139 al Bukhari. Heck read the Quran and the slaughter of the Jewish tribe of Quaryza in Medina.
William, I prefer to believe the experts of genocide (their numbers are immense) & the International Court of Justice (a plausible genocide). When you are able to present credible credentials, I just might pay attention to what you have to say.
And your credentials? Aside from studying comparative literature? You told William that without credible credentials you do not need to pay attention to what he has said. I’ve found such attitudes to be counterproductive.
You really are a dumb fuck aren't you. Maybe go and read the definition of what a genocide is before you show everyone your ignorance. While you are at it read the Likud Party manifesto and their 'River to the Sea' policy. Moron.
Do you feel better getting that off your chest asshole? LOL
Why don't you read the UN convention on Genocide, before spouting off. It is all about intention.
I know all about the Likkud, deplorable and my criticism of them and Zionist earns me the label anti semite in some circles. I could care fucking less asshole, like I could care fucking less about what you think, prick.
And the Left Wing/Palestinian call of Free Palestine from the River to the Sea is indeed a call to genocide and has genocidal intentions. prick.
Still showing your ignorance dipshit. Not just about intent. Maybe go back to remedial reading classes and some comprehension and then re-read the convention. Utter cretin.
Pointing out that Hamas does not represent all Islam.
Oh but they do. Islam is the Ummah, and the Ummah is Islam. The Ummah circles the wagons, regardless of secular differences, when the enemy is the kufr.
There are Jews for Palestine, anti war Jews, and on this thread self complained anti semitic (Anti Israel) Jews.
You will not find a Muslim who is in any way critical of Islam, the Quran, the Haddiths, those that do are murtadds, apostates, and the penaly for apostasy is death.
A few years back a Pakistani assassin was dispatched to trace down and kill a prominent apostate in Arizona.
Apostates, those that disrespect Muhammad and the Quran are routinely executed in Pakistan,and in the west people who disrespect Muhammad are the subjects of violence.
My History?? At the risk of sounding trite- check your assumptions. You have no idea who I am or what my history is. Perhaps I am a Sikh whose religious leader gave his life so other religions could be free to practice as they believed? Perhaps I am an atheist. Perhaps I have a Native American belief system or am a curandera.
One thing, however, is true, I do not lie. You may believe I am mistaken but do me the courtesy of not calling me a liar. Might I suggest walking in my shoes before assuming you understand my POV.
She is SarAnanda, all she is doing is brainlessly regurgitating Islam lies , distortion and propaganda, there is much of that here.
These people are so full of it, that they ignore the gist of RR's article.,forcing me to respond with facts.
I see people arguing in these comments trying to insist that it's the other side's fault. That's not how peace is made.
Much appreciate the balanced perspective offered here. One issue that is not touched on however, is the embedding of military forces within civilian populations. It is too often glossed over and my view is a major reason for the level of civilian casualties. It should be part of the discussion on moral principles.
As a casual observer of the conflict between the Israeli and Palestinians conflict and it seems the unprovoked killings in the west bank by so-called Jewish settlers from this country, in order to take Palestinian property was a big cause of Hamas's attack on the Israeli's.
How can one justify being a casual observer of 34000 deaths and counting? Asking for a friend
Half of those 34,000 are HAMAS and Islamic Jihad fighters, and HAMAS exaggerates for good effect seeing comments like yours, the number of casualties.
People like you are too gullible, as if you lack critical reasoning skills.
It seems most folk lack those skills, and thus suscepible to propaganda.
What is the basis for your claim that half of the 34,000 (which you seem to admit is accurate) were Hamas and Islamic Jihad fighters? Do they have special tattoos, or is it just the men and young boys who you automatically assume are?
Well now you’ve lost me. I don’t consider myself gullible. I don’t think I’ve played into HAMA propaganda. My critical reasoning and thinking skills are intact. If you read a bit more carefully, I only said 34000 - not who or ideology. It’s often the women and children who are collateral damage. To me, people are people regardless of ideology or gender.
The number 34,000 is from the propaganda organ of HAMAS, which is their Minisry of Health, you repeat the number, ergo are lacking critical thinking skills.
I noticed that various pundits and sources also repeat that number taking it as gospel, with absolutely no proof, however when the IDF shows a video of HAMAS atrocities, they caveat it with "unconfirmed".
Trust me I am no fan or friend of the IDF, the Likkud the Zionists, but I am not a braindead partisan easily swayed by bullshit propaganda.
At 80 yrs. old, I have no choice.
Actually David, I am 85, and the cause was not Jewish settlers taking Arab land, but a war aainst the jews, a religious war, that started 1400 years ago, and it manifested in Nov 1948, when the Arab neighbors of Israel, tried to eradicate the Jews, and has been going on non stop since then.
Of course you have a choice! You are 80, not dead! You can choose to be involved in any way you are able. You chose to comment, so you can choose to make your comment meaningful and impactful. At 80, you have a voice,; be heard; make an impact. Casual observers do not contribute to solutions.