Not really, the Arabs tried to obliterate the Jews in 1948, they failed, again and again they tried, failed each time and the result is that they lost land each time.
Here we go for the umpteenth time.I will try to educamate you.
There have always been Jews in that forsaken desert, even while the Ottoman Turks ruled it.
In the 1920's Theodore Herzl, toured Europe recruiting families to relocate to what was then Turkish controlled Palestine. The emigrees purchased the land from the inhabitants, what was basically an infertile land with some olive and orange groves, soon bloomed when the Jews built kibttuz and made the desert bloom.
Mark Twain visited Jerusalem and wrote that he found it a garbage dump. The Jews cleaned up the mess the Arabs had made.
In May 1948 Israel was declared a nation by the UN, in Nov 1948, the Arab neighbors, Jew hating Arab neighbors, shamed by what a handful of Jews had done to what was fallow desert, fell on the Jews to commit genocide. The outnumbered Jews beat the Arabs and confiscated land to extend their boundaries and try to ensure their safety.
This the "Palestinians" call the naqba or catastrophe, it was brought on by themselves, their Muslim and Arab brothers.
They didn't learn the lesson then, and came back again and again, 1956, 1967, 1973, 2006, 2014, Oct 7th and each time the lost and each time they lost more land.
Do you know what Muslim Arabs live in enclaves? Because they won't be good neighbors and live peaceful with the Jews.
Despite that, there are 2 million Arab citizens of Israel, they have the full rights of a citizen including the vote and have even served in the Knesset.
Now you tell me this. There are 57 Islamic ethnostates, many without any Jews, some with as little as 100 Jews, and none of them are welcome citizens with full rights and the vote, no Jew citizen of a Muslim state serves or has served in the government. Islamic governments aren't real democracies either. They are theocracies, where religion rules.
I heard the Foreign Minister of Malaysia on Christiane Amanpour and Co, he claimed that Malyasia was a democracy with human rights for all,but when Chrtiane asked him about LGBT, he obfuscated, see LGBT have no rights and are persecuted in Malaysia,and blamed it on the religion.
Plz sincere question- Gaza has FREE utilities- paid by Israelis, coastline property all around, universities, hospitals, ancient archives/landmarks, modern tech- so why have Palestinians not thrived as a vacation destination as Israel has? Egypt and Dubai have ( so do not blame oppressive religion or govt)
Why no nation changing profit in exporting unique produce or foods or services as Israel also has created?
You don't want me to blamean oppressive religion or gov't, but HAMAS is the governing authority in Gaza, and it is anything but liberal.
Dubai is zoned, within Muslim zones, Sharia prevails and women wear abaya's, and are not considered humans, not like men. In the money making zones, they have relaxed standards for westerners.
Not much different than Saudi Arabia. Saudi's consider the peninsula (Arabia) to be sacred Islamic ground, it is after all where Mecca, which is sacred to Muslims, and Medina, where Muhammad lived and died, and where he had 600 Jews of the tribe Banu Quaryza (tribe and banu are redundant, as Banu means tribe), beheaded 6 at a time.
The Saudi's quickly discovered that they needed western expertise, technology and resources to pump oil,, so they had to hire kufr (kaffir or infidels), but it was sacrilege to have kufr living on sacred Islamic soil.
The solution is to desacralize plots of l;ands, surround them with walls, and call them compounds, and let the kufr do what they want inside the compounds, which the Saudi's consider foreign territory.
On the other hand, HAMAS rules Gaza with an iron fist, they had one election, in 2006, and no election since. It doesn't even put on the pretense of a democracy, like Putin does.
Gaza is an occupied land kept in subjugation by Israel. Israel controls everything that goes in and out, and allowed only minimal food, water and medical even before Oct. 7. Poverty was extreme, people could not move about freely due to checkpoints everywhere, even fishing in the Mediterranean was severely restricted. Child beggars were in the streets. Palestinians' land was stolen and they were driven from their homes, often in the middle of the night. Israel imprisoned thousands , including children, without charges or trial. The ones that are tried are done in military courts where the conviction rate is over 99%. Gaza was considered the largest open air prison on earth. This is all before Oct. 7.
The nature of your comments reveals the fantasies American Jews have about Israel and its treatment of the Indigenous population, a testament to the success of the enormous Israeli propaganda machine.
Interesting history lesson Lee, although quite over the top in racism toward Arabs/Muslims which is never diplomatically helpful. Seems to me it's 2024 and the situation is completely out of control due to the continued slaughter by Israel - risking a much bigger conflagration in the Mideast.
Neither Arab or Muslim is a race. Arabs come in all shades and colors, from blue eyed, blond hair to black. Islam is a religion not a race,
And I hold a brief against Islam, the same I hold towards any religion,
I have studied Islam. Have you. Of course not. I have three versions of the Quran, one is the version that Thomas Jefferson have. I've read the hadiths, and the biography of Muhammad by ibn Ishaq which is more than even a Taliban has done. (The name Taliban means student)
It is a god awful inolerant, misogynistic and homophobic religion, and not at all pluralistic, not in it's own land under it's own leadership.
The disaster inGaza is the total responsiblity of HAMAS. And if HAMAS is not eliminated, they will come back for more and more, until all the Jews in Israel are obliterated, It says so in their covenant, and the leadership has said so on TV.
They are a nation of martyrs and martyrs are glorified not mourned,.
Again everything that is happening in Gaza is laid on the lap of the leadrship of HAMAS, it is a belligerent, anti human, religious organization that uses its own people as human shields.
Shame on you, for defending that which is indefensible.
You wrote everything I would have written. In addition, 850,000 Jews who had lived in Arab countries for generations were forced to leave those Countries . Many settled in the new State of Israel.
“From the river to the sea” the phrase chanted by Palestinian supporters comes directly from the revised Hamas charter, meaning they claim all that land, thus completely
obliterating Israel. They will keep trying to do just that
Ruth, true although my numbers differ slightly. 900,000. They were put in tents. No country at the time would absorb them. When Israel was given their portion of the land that the partition granted them, they were absorbed into the country along with any Arabs that wished to become an Arab/Israeli citizen. That's why they currently represent 20% of Israel's population and are represented by Monsour Abbas in the Knesset, who was a member of the Muslim Brotherhood and graduated from Hebrew University. They have full citizenship and the right to vote. How many Jews live in Arab lands and are represented in their schools of higher learning or represented in their governments. Answer ZERO!
I don't have a version. Zionists consider me an antisemite. I have no dog in this fight,and hold the Muslims and right wing Israelis in total disgust.
I know what I know, and I really don't take sides. I am an atheist, former Catholic, and hold all religions in suspicion and disgust.
And I don't adopt an identity based on superficialities or irrelevancies. As a matter of fact I am pretty fed up with humans, and find that my age and infirmities are a blessing.
I have more compassion for animals than I do people, and frankly it is my considered opinion that your "compassion" for the Gazans is not genuine, just a useful tool, to express your hatred of Jews.
I am prone to say that I am an equal opportunity hater, but that is a lie, Jews are not a threat to me, but Christians and Muslims, well they are. Christians immediately, Islam down the road, but both are intolerant, triumphalist, bigoted, exclusionary, misogynistic and homophobic screeds and I have absolutely no use for either. They won't let others live in peace and are malicious as a result.
Judaism on the other hand, well Israel has more human rights than even America, Israel, more diversity, more equal rights, but they have one problem, Netanyahu and the Israeli right, both are brethren of Trump and the MAGAts.
Lisa how about treaties? Do they count? The League of Nations, the Picot agreement, four major wars, 13 operations followed and were all won by Israel. This was all to hold on to the measly bit of land the size of New Jersey the Allied powers gave them in 1948. Should we give back America to the Indians? It's older than the League of Nations.
What America did to the Indians and the Blacks are ongoing atrocities along the same lines as murderous Iz/US has treated and continues to treat the people of Palestine.
First you accept the word of HAMAS as to numbers. Shame on you. You lack critical thinking skills,and.or are willingly gullible.
Second every dead Gazan is the responsibility of HAMAS. They brought this down on their own people, and worse they are using them as human shields, because they know full well, that there are suckers in the west who don't think, or can't think,and believe their lies and propaganda.
I've seen the videos, of HAMAS and the IDF, I know what destruction is being visited on Gaza and all of it is laid in the laps of HAMAS.
If they hadn't flown out of the strip on paragliders, boats, motorcycles and slaughter those babies and toddler, raped and murder women, elderly and disabled, and hauled back over 200 Jews as hostages, none of this would have happened.
Blame HAMAS for using i's own people and hostages as human shields.
The stupid assholes, like Sinwar underestimated the Jews, The Jews under public pressure released 1,000 terrorists for 1 IDF soldier, giving HAMAS the idea that if they multiplied it by 200 they could get the Jews to lay down like logs on the road.
You show your true colors with this comment. You favor 20X retribution over justice as a proper responce. In engineering we call that positive feedback in a system. Positive feedback results in a system that latches up into one that is one-sided, depending on which side happens to be the strongest in the final battle. The tinyest incident can errupt into war in a system governed by positive feedback. Currently Israel has been had the strongest since the initial battle, and it has always settled the issue with positive feedback, meaning excessive retribution.
Human justice stipulates that all people should have equal opportunity. That only happens in a system where negative feedback governs the outcome of conflict. Negative feedback essentially works to de-escalate the conflict, and justice is the way. Justice means that all parties for the most part that the solution is fair to both sides. Minor incidents don't escalate when negative feedback is involved. That is why Jesus said turn the other cheek. Being able to say and do such a thing is why mere humans might say he was as a 'God'.
The Gaza Health Ministry lowered that number by quite a bit.
If you wish to quote Hamas numbers. By all means do so, that is your perogative.
But also Stand up and say as Hamas stated, that no rapes occurred on Oct 7th, No Decapitations Occured on Oct 7th , No babies were burnt in their cribs.....
Lee Markland, since you are so engaged in this discussion, would you please explain who is the HAMAS entity that the Israeli government with the approval of the US government and the world Jewish community, decided to obliterate. Assuming that innocently you, as the Israeli and US government, believe that you will be able to kill every HAMAS person, I would like to offer a different perspective. HAMAS is the idea of free Palestine, is the dream of every Palestinian of having their own country. Please look, for an instance, at this nefarious invasion from the Palestinian point of view; you will see that their dream is similar to the one that you imposed on them in 1948.
William Rosa. Your comment is a statement in the guise of a question. Quite transparent and thus unanswerable.
Regardless of your white washing of HAMAS, it is an unconscionable, murderous, bigoted organization populated by men of the same ilk.
HAMAS and Islamic jihad, slaughtered infants, children, the elderly, disabled and raped and murdered women.. up front and personal, then carted hostages back to Gaza on stolen vehicles and motorcycles.
The IDF has not. What has happened in Gaza is no diffrent than the allies carpet bombing of Germany and the dead Gazans are collateral damage, courtesy of the Cowardly HAMAS, who are using their people as human shields.
And these anti humans are those whom you defend and on whose side you stand.
The talking points that you use to, I guess, justify Israeli' actions against innocent and unarmed Palestinians have been used and abused by the US media as well as the silence of the Jewish community; thus, they are empty, hypocritical and above all dishonest. I'm not defending HAMAS, I'm speaking on behalf of the voiceless Palestinians. Since, according to you, the US media and your Israeli sources, HAMAS went into Israel killed and kidnapped 2000+ people, Israel have the right to invade the strip, kill over 30 thousand innocent people (about 15k children), destroyed their house and businesses and starved to death the rest of them, so Israel and it's people can maintain their standard of living which by the way its higher that in many US states. Is this scenario what you are trying to justify? I believe that finally, super late but better than never, the international community is beginning to realize the magnitude of the Jewaish state action.
It's not a matter of talking about the Israeli people that lost their lives; the question is why genocide people that where expel from their land, their hose and farm taken away and locked them in a prison like territory 100% controled by the Israel. What is your proposal for the Palestinian people after 80+ years of colonial occupation? What they should do satisfy the thirst of of domination, humiliation and oppression of the Israeli state? Was killing the Palestinian children a "collateral damage," as you call it, or a plan to annex whatever is left of their homeland? Please don't tell me that the Jewish people were there before, because I will have to remind you that the native Americans were here before you and me and I don't remember a single initiative coming from the Jewish community to return to them their land.
The Jewish people, just because of their experience with genocide, should be much more careful, responsible and above open to other people plight for dignity, peace, security, food and being able to raise their children in the sanctity of their home. I really would like you feel offended more than upset with historical facts that can't be modified by you or the Jewish nation.
William there is only one group responsble for all of the shit that is happening in Gaza,and that is HAMAS. Period.
If the cowards who hide behind their people and hostages had surrendered or captured, then nothing would have happened.
Blame the right parties, and condemn HAMAS for their cowardice and inhumanity. At least the IDF is not raping women, and murdering babies, infants, toddlers, the elderly and disabled as a matter of policy and up front and personal at that.
There is a difference between cold blooded murder and rape, and collateral damage. HAMAS is responsible for both, cold blooded murder and collateral damage.
For the hundredth time, what is happening in Gaza is not genocide, and you should know better, misuse of the word genocide does violence and robs it of all meaning.
There is no fucking way that Israel could genocide Arabs or Muslims, and the people who live in Gaza and the west bank are Arabs and part of the Ummah, the world wide community of Muslims, whose loyalty to their host countries is questioned, as they are first and foremost loyal to Islam.
And I don't believe in dual citizenship anyway, a person can not be loyal to two nations or religions, Imagine a Christian Muslim, mind you. Goes to Mosque on Friday, prays to Allah fivetimes a day and on Sunday goes to Mass and receives the Eucharist after confessing on Saturday and saying hail Mary's and Padre Nuestra's.
They were offered their own country at least twice: in 1948 and again with the Oslo accords. They turned both down. They dont want a country, they want the whole thing. I’m not making this up. Read the Hamas charter.
Lisa, who says so? Where are their deeds of ownership. The JNF holds theirs. There was no such country called Palestine, except in Biblical times and you probably know that. They were part of the Ottoman Empire. You are not supporting the Gazans with your alternative facts. You are just expressing your hatred for Zionists in particular and all Jews in general. Jews throughout the ages ever Since Paul of biblical times ., the first antisemite, began his new Christian religion, churches have preached their hatred of Jews. Pogroms in Europe and the Middle East were the result, culminating in the Holocaust. It's people like you that are responsible for making our Jewish youth attending schools of higher learning a living hell. Your ignorance is only exceeded by your Jew hatred!
It was actually not their land. Arab land owners owned their land. Most farmers were only tenant farmers. The Arab land owners sold land to the early Zionists, who paid for the land and therefore owned it. The tenant farmers could have purchased their land but the didn’t
Hamas is not the Idea of a Free Palestine. Its about the continuation of the work of the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem Al Husseini and Adolph Hitler, the co conspirators in their plan to eradicate the jews.
Also William, Lee imposed nothing, Unless of course your saying Lee is one of the Architects of the Balfour Declaration?
Lee - this link is from the nytimes magazine recently. i don't know enough about the history of palestine/israel and am trying to educate myself. i would value your opinion.
It is my bed time, and I am tired, I looked at the site, and don't have much to say. Except this,with which I agree: In 1920, we speak about Jews and Arabs. It’s only in 1948 that the Arabs become Palestinians and the Jews become Israelis.
The Arab in the conversation tried to a contra argument, that the Arabs who lived in the Ottoman satrapy, had a Palestinian identity. I doubt that seriously, most if not all were settled Bedouins who had no national identity as there was no nation called Palestine, it is like saying that the pre revolutionary colonists of America considered themselves American.
They didn't they were British. Paul Revere didn't cry "The British are coming, because he and everyone else was British, he said "the Redcoats were coming, actually he never got to Concord - Lexington, he was stopped by a British patrol, and it was Samuel Prescott which actually made it to Concord
I can add to it,how the PM of Britain, Lord Balfour who was mired in the War, was approached by Lord Sykes and the Zionist Leadership that if he promised the Jews a homeland, then they would set world Jewry to support the war.
Up to that time, the Jews in America were opposed to the war, they were pacifist.
Water under the dam though, we can argue history back to the supposed Exodus, which I don't believe, that is another story.
I find I have to constantly bring up the Muslim Arab attack on Israel, because Arabs keep crying nagba, which is a catastrophe that they caused, just like HAMAS has caused this catastrophe.
There is one big difference between HAMAS and Islamic Jihad and the IDF, the slaughter of Jews by HAMAS and IJ, was up front and personal, they took pleasure, especially raping Jewish women.
What is happening in Gaza is collateral damage, not up front not personal, and the IDF are not raping Muslim women.
What is happening in Gaza is no different than the allies carpet bombing Germany in WWII.
Collateral damage happens in war. Was is hell, but it was brought on by the inhuman and animal acts of HAMAS and IJ., just as Hitler, Mussolini and Tojo brought hell on the Germans, Italians and Japanese.
Lee - thank you for your thoughts. i do agree with Lisa that if the colonial mentality had been replaced by buying the Palestinian land, much of the conflict might have been avoided. that colonial mentality by right wing israelis in the west bank will perpetuate the conflict interminably. It just also occurred to me that if the Jewish leaders of that time had just for a second considered what they had just been through (the Holocaust), just the smallest amount of empathy for the Palestinians could have prevented all this carnage. On the other hand, trauma such as they experienced (and had experienced for 2000 years) affected all their perceptions, as trauma has been shown to do to the human brain. It's too much to ponder.
That is not what Lisa Said Paul, and you evidently haven't read my comment(s).
The Jews in the 1920's and 1930's did in fact buy the land, but the Arabs believe that the land is sacred to Muslims, and the Jews did what the Arabs haven't done in thousands of years, and make the desert bloom, they also cleaned up Jerusalem, which Mark Twain described as a garbage dump.
Embarrassed by the Jews and envious, 6 months after the UN declared Israel a state, the Arabs invaded with the intent of committing genocide, instead a handful of Jews whipped their asses.
And to secure their country, they did what all countries have done, including the United States, and that is take land, to expand their boundaries.
The Arabs, being religiously motivated, and thus insane, never learned their lesson and came back again and again, in 1967, 1967, 1973, 2006, 2014, and Oct 7th, each time trying to obliterate the Jews (genocide), each time they failed, each time Israel took more land to secure it's borders .
The problem Paul is the Muslim Arabs. despite the attempts of Arabs to commit genocide of the Jews. There are 2 million Arab citizens of Israel with voting rights and they have even served in the Knesset. Show me one Muslim country that has 1/6th of their population as Jews or even Christians. Most Muslim countries and there are 57 of them have no Jews, and if they do they number about 100. Egypt has three. Iran maybe 200, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan,Pakistan, Libya - none. Malaysia and Indonesia maybe 100.
I am a progressive, an atheist, and all religion's are hostile to me. And all religions on Earth are patriarchal and misogynistic, none more so than Islam.
LIsa - this link is from the nytimes magazine recently. i don't know enough about the history, and am trying to educate myself. i would value your opinion.
Paul, thanks for the link. I think it is a very balanced discussion and history. My take is that it was a mistake to create a Jewish state in a place that already had the Palestinian people living their for centuries and cultivating the land. No one should be forced off their land, much less without compensation. (The exception might have been in part of Germany, but the horrors of the Holocaust would have made that too frightening for the survivors, I can only imagine.) If Jewish people were going to live in Palestine, it would have been much more appropriate if they had bought land and homes there and lived peacefully with their neighbors in one state with complete equality for everyone. The two state concept could possibly have worked if the land could have been fairly divided and if the original residents were willing to agree. Apparently in 1969 the PLO offered this solution, which to me was generous, but it was rejected by Israel. Israel has treated the Palestinians in the most cruel way, culminating in the current massacre and starvation, and the destruction of nearly all valuable structures, i.e. hospitals, universities, mosques, housing, schools. The thought that this trillion dollars worth of damage and the torture and murder of these people can just be rebuilt and the survivors live happily ever after as two states is absurd. I believe Israel's intention is to rid the area of Palestinians and take all the land and natural resources. And the US and the UK will continue to fund it.
Lisa, thanks for feedback. Buying the land from the Palestinians would have gone against all the "principles" of British colonialism. The Israelis continue this model in the West bank, perpetuating injustice which will only result in more violence in the short and long term.
"Paul, thanks for the link. I think it is a very balanced discussion and history. My take is that it was a mistake to create a Jewish state in a place that already had the Palestinian people living there for centuries and cultivating the land."
Except the Jews who numbered 900,000 forcibly removed from their lands in the Middle East and forced to live in tents. If not for Israel becoming a state, these Jews would still be in tents. You leave that bit of history out of your comment to Paul. You also refuse to accept that in the late 1800's and early 1900's the Jewish National fund and other like org. bought thousands of acres of swamp and arid desert land rom Sheik's only too glad to get rid of it. These org. still hold the deeds to this land. You also ignore that Palestinians were not the only people that were part of the Ottoman Empire and were NOT the only people living in the Middle East!
This is Lisa H comment who you seem to accept without hesitation. Here's my reply.
"Paul, thanks for the link. I think it is a very balanced discussion and history. My take is that it was a mistake to create a Jewish state in a place that already had the Palestinian people living there for centuries and cultivating the land."
Except the Jews who numbered 900,000 forcibly removed from their lands in the Middle East and forced to live in tents. If not for Israel becoming a state, these Jews would still be in tents. You leave that bit of history out of your comment to Paul. You also refuse to accept that in the late 1800's and early 1900's the Jewish National fund and other like org. bought thousands of acres of swamp and arid desert land rom Sheik's only too glad to get rid of it. These org. still hold the deeds to this land. You also ignore that Palestinians were not the only people that were part of the Ottoman Empire and were NOT the only people living in the Middle East!
Your ignorance with regards to the history of this tragedy , is beyond the pale. Please refrain from comments with regards to theft or rape, these comments minimize the suffering that has ensued, to every one involved in the latest episode of this ongoing saga.
1) The Palestinians were offered a homeland in 1948, and multiple times after. 2) For the most part, they left British-occupied Palestine at the urging of Arab leaders in preparation for a war. 3) There has been a Jewish presence in "Palestine" for 3,000 years or more. 4) The U.N. created a Jewish state in '47- '48. No one came and colonized anything 5) Palestinians don't want a state UNLESS it means the elimination of the Jewish state. Be careful. Their ideology is an attack on Western values in general, not just on Israel, not just on Jews. The West in general. 6) The Palestinians and their terrorist leadership are responsible for their current predicament. Hamas wanted this famine, this destruction, this death because it's good for their PR. This is the truth.
Please, read Ilan Pappe book about the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians. You will understand exactly what happened. It is just not fair to throw accusations and try to justify the atrocities against Palestinians.
I think he/she, (as Robin can be either gender/sex), just meant that Palestine's LEADERSHIP desperately wants death and famine for their publicity . . . just like a certain morbidly obese dementia-case wants an economic crash in 'America! Facist tyrants do not care AT ALL about "their people."
Anyone can write a book, about anything. The onus is on the reader to use critical thinking skills, and have some knowledge before jumping on a bandwagon.
If I read all of the books, that some body on substack wanted me to read,I wouldn't be able to do anything else, Rauid, Just bcause someone wrote a book, doesn't mean that their is truth in the book.
It amazes me how Israel is held to different standards. During WWII thousands of German Children died. If there was a ceasefire, the third Reich would have taken over the world.
I suppose if someone is antisemitic it could seem that way. Other allies didn’t have 6 million of their people slaughtered either. At least not that I’m aware of.
And whenever any civilians are killed especially children it is never right and it is immoral. The whole reason we have the ICJ and strict humanitarian rules is because of WW11. Have you looked at any of the images of a Palestinians in really time as these atrocities are committed for all the world to see. Have you seen the traumatized children desperately looking for their dead parents. Or mothers and fathers holding their dead babies. These people are innocent and defenseless and trapped.
World War II was an actual war, with armies on both sides. Israel - Palestine is a David vs Goliath situation, with Israel having the 4th strongest army in the world, and Hamas numbering at most 25,000 resistance fighters using fairly primitive weapons.
Israel is making war on the civilian population not Hamas, as can be seen by the death toll. Starving a civilian population, bombing hospitals and denying medical care are all war crimes. Palestinian children are starving to death now, and will be followed by the elderly and everybody else if this doesn't stop soon. Thus the world wide revulsion against Israel. Anybody who thinks this is going to make Israel safer isn't thinking straight.
Why,? Why do i need to defer to someone elses opinion, for that is all most of these books are, just elaborate justifications for someones opinion.
I am 85, have read thousands of books in my life, the only fiction were the classics like the Pathfinder, Les Miserable, a Tale of Two Cities and all of CharlesDickens works.
I've forgottenmore than you will ever learn, and I certainly don't need to spend the precious little time I have remaining on trying to digest some else's opinion.
I have my own opinions, well studied, and well informed thank you.
Here is the Amazon summary of the referenced book, Ilan Pappe's "The Ethnic Cleansing of the Palestinians":
"Between 1947 and 1949, over 400 Palestinian villages were deliberately destroyed, civilians were massacred and around a million men, women, and children were expelled from their homes at gunpoint.
Denied for almost six decades, had it happened today it could only have been called 'ethnic cleansing'. Decisively debunking the myth that the Palestinian population left of their own accord in the course of this war, Ilan Pappe offers impressive archival evidence to demonstrate that, from its very inception, a central plank in Israel’s founding ideology was the forcible removal of the indigenous population. Indispensable for anyone interested in the current crisis in the Middle East."
The Palestinians were living on land they had lived on for literally thousands of years, as well. They were populating the land there, descendants of people who lived there for millennia, people who remained after Rome drove out the Jewish religion, including leaders and a great many but not all the people, back around 70CE.
That land was partitioned without the assent of Palestinian people who had lived there for generations and generations. The colonizers were THE BRITISH {after they took over from THE TURKS] , and they created that partition of the land because the rest of the world was NOT willing to accept a large influx of Jewish refugees from Europe whose lives had been upended and destroyed by decades of Pogroms and rampant anti-Semitism in the Holocaust. Jews were desperate for a safe place to be. They felt a connection to Palestine {the ancient Judea}, and had been relocating there for many years, living beside Palestinians whose families had been there since Roman times, as well.
But, the Euro-centric world was being racist with the partition, and Jews and Palestinians were both put behind the eight ball. THAT is the truth.
I thought there was a chance, some twenty or thirty years ago to work out two states that would be accepted by Jews and Palestinians, but allowing the settlements in the West Bank to become giant cities with private roads that Palestinians couldn’t even drive on, much less become residents of the “settlements,” well, that became a nearly insurmountable “facts on the ground” impediment.
It’s still going to be damned hard to resolve how to provide self-determination for Palestinians along with security and stability for the ongoing state of Israel, ending this monstrous bombing while also getting rid of the likes of HAMAS that deals nothing but more hatred and death into the mix. Finding common ground to build a modicum of trust to carry people through — that’s needed, but how to do it…
But, whatever the outcome, Netanyahu must be brought to STOP making everything there worse. He must stop the bombing and allow food and medical aid safely into Gaza.
Gross simplification with some truths, but you leave out so much. Blaming Israel from the "get go" is unfair as there had been much sympathy for the millions of Jews slaughtered by Hitler. Palestinians and Jews had already lived in the land, and there was plenty of unoccupied land. The land the UN gave for establishment of Israel was the worst--all desert. And before the actual establishment (one day before), Palestinians attacked the Israelis. And so it began...many if not all Palestinians have never wanted to recognize Israel, though Israel was only one of numerous countries created by world decree in aftermath of WWI/WWIi (Jordan for instance). Add to that the numerous times Israel was attacked (Gaza was occupied by Egypt originally) and then took in area from where the threat came (Gaza, West Bank).
Top that off with unwillingness of Muslims to share
Jerusalem (which acoording to UN was to be jointly administered), the spiritual capitol of both Jews, Christians, and Muslims (though for Muslims it is really second to Mecca) and you have recipe for resentment, hatred, and fight for more land. Blaming the current US administration for all of this is preposterous--Biden and co. are having to undo years of bad US policy (basically ALL of the years GOP administrations have been in charge).
Yes, Biden needs to reign in Netanyahu, but it is an uphill and treacherous climb, with many both foreign and domestic hoping for (and trying to sabotage) failure.
I actually don’t blame Israel “from the get go.” I recognize why it exists, though I have some issues with how the solution of a homeland for the Jewish people was handled, I wholly SUPPORT its continued existence. With a reasonable solution for the Palestinian people now, too.
One can look at history and trace a line to a lot of places to put “blame,” but people have suffered, and sufffered, and suffered, and I hope to see it stop.
I recognize there’s way too much energy put into sabotaging any decency.
I have heard the calls for Hamas finding their way to celebrate life instead of death. From both Israeli peace activists AND Palestinian peace activists.
The view has to be how to address all the people living between the river and the sea. There are so many hurting.
The Holocaust was absolutely horrific. Innocent Palestinian children had nothing to do with the Holocaust. We are focusing on what is going on now. Netanyahu has been crystal clear he wants to kill all Palestinians
Yes, but in the aftermath of the Holocaust there was a desire for displaced Jews to return to their spiritual homeland (Palestine) rather than to the countries where they had been persecuted, imprisoned, and killed. That outcry was felt worldwide and led to the creation of Israel.
Do you know why the land was originally named “Palestine”? Jews were forced off of the land, and their artifacts were buried underground to make it look like they never lived there. To add further insult, the land was named Palestine after their enemies, the Philistines. If you go to Israel, you can see the uncovered earth covered in clear plastic to show the original Jewish settlement.
You must be reading a different map. Look at the original UN proposal--it included literally all of the unpopulated land, largely desert, and separated
in multiple places by Palestinian land, as well as being far from Jarusalem (although Jarusalem was to be administered by the UN initially.
Suppose you buy a house and are forced out as someone steals your home. While you are gone, someone else moves in. Whose house is it? This conflict is not as clear cut as what Americans did to Native Americans, but the two state solution appears to be the best answer.
A lot of them are exactly that, yes. Some descended from just people living there who continued to do so with whatever beliefs they might have had or developed … as well as people who migrated there, because that what humans do on this planet … we migrate.
My distant Y-DNA ancestry is Norse. The first records of my family appear in Switzerland in the 15th century. Then to the Duchy of Wurttemburg during the 30 Years' War (land-starved Switzerland exported mercenaries). Then to land-rich central Nebraska, where people know how to pronounce my name.
There were at least 3 major Jewish terrorist groups operating in Palestine in 1948 (Irgun, headed by Menachem Begin, was one of them), mainly removing Palestinians from their home so Jewish families could move in, along with fighting Palestinian resistance. It was in no way a peaceful takeover. Read "The Lemon Tree".
When I was an English teacher, I once had a Palestinian student who told me that
his grandfather had been a prosperous businessman in "the Palestinian Territory."
One day in 1948, his granfather answered the door to be confronted by Israeli soldiers who demanded that he collect his family, leave all his belongings, and leave his home. That day, the family moved to Jordan, then later came to the US.
How many jewish settlements were razed? Completely.
It becomes he said she said, and the ever popular whataboutisim, we were here first, no we were , its our land , no its not, its ours. And so on and so on ad nauseum.
Think of Daffy Duck fighting with Donald Duck over the Genie Lamp.
cuz the UN "created a Jewish state" - how does that make it all right? what if the UN decided to create a whatever-state in your homeland? A "Jewish presence" for 3000 years makes a sudden influx of millions of Euro and US Jews shoving the native-born aside is okay? Hamas is evil. Does that make even greater body count by Israel okay? Palestinians were "offered a homeland" in their country? Wow.
Weren't the Jews there before Palestine? Jews were forced out of their homeland hundreds of years ago. Are the Jews not the indigenous people of that region?
I respectfully disagree with your dissertation on the above. #1) the offering to the Palestinian people gave them the worst and Israeli's the best so it was declined. #2) the Palestinians were told to leave the area to prevent being killed and they could return when Britan got things settled #3) there were Jews in the area of Palestine and they lived peacefully with Palestinians. #4) Land was taken from people that had thriving businesses, orchards and homes no matter who decided to take the land #5) Palestinians want their homes back.
Not everyone in the world follows a judeo Christian belief. My husband's father and Mother were those people that lost everything...they were refugees until they got their 1st citizenship here. Most of those in Israel now should not even be there if you follow Judea christianity..they are not Hebrew. The problem now is Netanyahu wants the oil that has been found in the sea near Gaza...how do think Americans would act if the roles were reversed?
I respectfully disagree: the Palestinians rejected all Jews on their land, the Palestinians did not live peacefully with the Jews, there were many programs and murders and the Jews were kicked out of every Arab state. That was ethnic cleansing. The Arabs that stayed are Israeli Arabs with full rights including voting and there are Israeli Arab doctors, lawyers and Supreme Court judges. The Jews want their homes back in the Arab lands. Where were the voices when they were kicked out? BTW, Israeli Arabs do not want to live in a Palestinian state. They are happy with where they are.
Thank you for showing us the impact to your family. Also news is about oil found off Gaza - that does give Netanyahu a huge reason to go after it. That also explains why he might have let Oct 7th happen- to get support to attack.
Robin Alexander preposterously writes that "no one came and colonized anything." Have you not heard of the 1916 Sykes-Picot Agreement that divided the Middle East (including Palestine) between Great Britain and France?
My mistake. I meant to say the Jews did not “colonize” anything. Yes of course. The actual colonization was done by powerful western entities, the ottomans , and if you go back far enough the Muslim Caliphate.
There would be no problem had not the Arabs tried to obliterate (genocide) the Jews in 1948, not having learned a lesson, they kept coming back again and again, like the insane religious nuts that they are, 1956, 1967,1973, 2006, 2014, Oct 7th, they get their asses handed to them each time,. each time they lose territory, they never learn.
That is because Islam is a nation of Martyrs, and martyrs are glorified, not mourned, and HAMAS said it a month ago, they will never stop, they will keep coming back and send martyrs to paradise (but never, ever the leaders).
There were less that half that living in the region in 1948. There are two million Levantine, Muslim Arab-speakers living as citizens of Israel now. Where is your logic and math. (Please show all work!)
If you put fish in a fish tank, the population will limit themselves to the size of the fish tank, but humans, or at least some sexually obsessed cultures will not, they just breed and breed until the space can no longer support them, they the dam breaks.
I live on an island of some 55 square miles, the deer here have no natural predators, without predators they become pests, but also the deer population is so large that they became sick and diseased.
When the deer population becomes so large that it is a hazard to itself, the county give out hunting permits, and even pay landowners $1.000 to permit hunters on their land to cull the herd.
It sounds horrible. It got me, because I had a family that munched on my lawn, and one doe we called apple, because she would take an apple from us.
The emotional me objected, and I will not allow hunting on my property, but the rational mind knows that the curd has to be culled for the safety of the entire population, because a diseased buck can wipe out an entire population.
The problem is the synergy between biology and hormones and religious imperatives to go forth and breed, thus to overpower the world through numbers.
What can't be achieved via the sword or politics can be achieved by fecundity.
I point doubters to the Cult of Rome,which bans abortion and contraception.
Such bans are not necessary in a cult where access and familiarity with women is restricted and prohibited, and thus there is an overload of testosterone and semen when the dam breaks......... marriage and/or rape
When and if all the hostages are released Israel will go nuclear! The devastation we see now will be inconsequential to what it will be after their release.
Let’s not forget who started this war. It was Hummas! They brutally killed innocent children and raped and mutilated women. Now they are hiding and using the Palestinians as human shields. They don’t care anything about the Palestinians people. They only care about wiping out Israel.
Yes, releasing the remaining hostages and announcing a full and unconditional surrender. I do wonder why the elected government of Gaza, Hamas, is not providing food and medical supplies to help their own people.
Hamas does not care about their own people. They were given concrete to build shelter for Palestinians. Instead they built tunnels to attack Israelis. They knew exactly what would come from their October 7 attack on Israel, too, and they are hoping for more Palestinian deaths to win the propaganda war. They have stolen supplies from the people, shot missiles from civilian areas, and repeatedly use the Palestinians as human shields. There is no love or concern for the people. Their only wish is to kill Jews. That is the harsh fact of who Hamas is!
Yes, Humas started this war and all they care about is the genocide of the Jewish people. They will stop at nothing until this is accomplished which is why they must be destroyed.
Darn - I came across a great meme, but I can't find it right now; something about how when your aid is being distributed by terrorists, they are often too busy to do the job. Sadly true.
Listen the fact is, these people aren't stupid. If they wanted to create a decent life for their people they could have. Their ideology is not about that. Period end of story.
Sad, but given my current understanding of Hamas, I believe that assessment is correct. Since Israel has apparently agreed to the terms of the currently proposed ceasefire, we’ll see if Hamas also will agree.
Long past that point, most of the hostages are probably dead.
Iran acheived its goal through Hamas, meaning Hamas scuttled the the Saudi/ Israel deal. The long term goal of the destruction of Israel is the Ultimate Goal, and to kill every jew, and Infidels worldwide.
“Prompting Israeli soldiers to fire at the crowd”… are you serious Robert? Have you not seen the faces of the starved that are coming out of all of Gaza but esp the northern area? If you haven’t, I suggest you start looking a little harder. ISRAEL IS CREATING THIS CHAOS AND FAMINE
The quote about the IDF shooting into the crowd is simply reporting of the event as far as I can tell. There is no advocation in the phrasing for what they did. If you read it in context of the entire piece, Reich is clearly advocating for a further change in the Biden Administration's policy, which is a good thing. And don't forget that two things can be true: the U. S. supports the right of Israel to exist and to try to liberate the hostages and root out Hamas leadership; and the US does not support the genocide of innocent civilians nor the horrific conditions due to IDF presence. The US must also push for a 2-state solution and retreat of illegal settlements in the West Bank.
Also, understand that politically, the situation puts Biden in a difficult position. If he comes across as anti-Israeli, he threatens losing the historical Jewish-America vote. From all appearances there has been a tremendous flurry of work behind the scenes to push back against Netanyahu. But Netanyahu, who is undoubtedly a Trump supporter, could choose to do everything in his power to hurt Biden and help Trump's reelection bid. Without a Democrat in the WH our foreign policy would be in a shambles.
💯, the whole debacle is based on a false flag Hamas terrorist event they knowingly allowed to happen. Likud are Zionist globalist lunatics, the majority of Israelis do not support them, but Uncle Joe knows better 👌. The same uncle Joe encouraged and presided over the influx of 10 million economic migrants since the start of his tenure, and thats only through the southern border 👍
The event was allowed to happen. Israeli intelligence is the most sophisticated in the world, if a camel farted near the border they would know about it, however when a raggle tag bunch of deranged idiots come over it takes them 7 HOURS to react. Huge anti Lecud marches prior to the incident. Polls had 90% of the population against them!
Oh, right, like when we had chatter about 9/11…and when Clinton was told that Bin Ladin was dangerous…and the Yom Kippur war in 1973, when the Arabs would never attack on a Jewish holiday. I am not saying that I like Netanyahu, I am saying that Israel is not evil, Israel was attacked within its own borders, and Hamas NEEDS TO GIVE BACK THE HOSTAGES!
I know about the demonstrations and the polls. I have lived in Israel and have friends and family there who keep us updated on the demonstrations.
Well Vincent, what’s your source for this info? You seem to be saying Netanyahu knew a terrorist attack against Israelis was imminent but he “knowingly allowed it to happen.” How do you know he knew?
If by “ Uncle Joe” you mean President Biden, and you believe Biden, “presided over the influx of 10 million economic migrants since the start of his tenure, and that’s only through the southern border.”
What’s your source for that information? It’s easy to say such things when you don’t bother to find out all of the facts.
For years, Republicans have been calling for more money and officers to secure our southern border, but, for example, last May during budget negotiations their debt ceiling bill did the exact opposite—it cut CBP’s budget by $4 billion, resulting in the loss of 2,400 officers. Cuts would also mean over $640 million in border security technology would no longer be operational. This loss of resources due to republicans themselves had serious consequences for the Border security and their capacity to process immigrants and to stop fentanyl and illicit drug trafficking. So, in spite of Republican claims we have a border crisis, it’s very obvious their intent has always been to make the “crisis” worse and blame Biden for it.
Here are some examples of facts: Ever since Joe Biden took office in 2021, congressional Republicans have hammered him with claims of a border crisis and have repeatedly lied by saying Democrats want open borders. But, as they continue to demand more border security, most of the same GOP law makers are also pushing a bill that could slash border funding by 22%.” (The American Independent, 5/25/23, by Josh Israel)
The facts are that Republicans have repeatedly voted against border security funding during both the Obama & Biden administrations. So the next time a Republican Congressman cries “open borders,” ask them why they voted to defund border security. (Third Way.org, 5/3/23, K.Murdock)
Just a few weeks ago, and after months of negotiations, a bipartisan bill was drafted giving
republicans almost everything they asked for
in an immigration and border security bill. But
guess what? Republicans voted against it because
Trump didn’t want to give President Biden the “win.”
Trump told House republicans to vote against the
bill so he could use the border issues against Biden while campaigning.
What that tells us is republicans manufactured the
“border crisis.” You have to wonder what else they
manufactured, just so they could discredit Biden.
Let’s see, there’s the several years-long republican harassment of President Biden’s son Hunter. It was based on information on a laptop hard drive that was so extensively tampered with by republican geniuses
that it couldn’t be used as evidence of anything but
republican tampering.
Then there’s the ridiculous impeachment of Sec.
Mayorkas that was devoid of credible evidence of wrongdoing. Ditto for their sham attempt to impeach
President Biden. It turns out the GOP’s alleged evidence was based on a raft of lies told by a longtime FBI informant with ties to Russian oligarchs. We now know the lies were part of a disinformation scheme directly from the Kremlin
that was intended to hurt Biden’s candidacy.
It’s all been a tremendous waste of time, energy and
Regarding the Hunter Biden laptop, the contents are freely available online and documents, tens of thousands of images. I would say go research those and make your own informed decision. I think you will be surprised to say the least.
I made no comment on the influx of illegal immigrants. My point was that republicans
blame President Biden & carry on about “open borders” then consistently vote against funding border security. Since that is factual information
it’s hypocritical for republicans to continue to
blame Biden for a problem they created. The U.S.
hasn’t had “open borders” since the 1920s.
(Cato. org, 9/23/21, by David Bier)
“By using the term "open border," conservatives — including Rep. Jim Jordan, R-Ohio, who is seeking the role of House speaker — are suggesting that anyone can get into the U.S. without much hassle. But the reality is that the southern border is more fortified than it's ever been.” (Axios. com, 10/17/23,
by Russell Contreras)
I know nothing about whether borders are “open”
in other countries.
As far as Hunter Biden’s laptop is concerned, any
documents allegedly found on it are useless for
the purpose of proving Hunter Biden had anything
to do with them. The reason is because the laws of evidence require that any object or paper intended to be used as evidence in a court of law must have a documented chain of custody, meaning from the moment someone picked the laptop up from the computer repair shop, that person and every other person who handled it personally signed their name along with the date & time they had it so each of
them can be put under oath and questioned about what was done with it when it was in their possession. In this particular case no chain of custody was established and it was obvious to
some who inspected it, the hard drive had been extensively tampered with.
If there’s no chain of custody and there’s evidence the hard drive was tampered with, it means anyone could have loaded false documents on it. Therefore the documents can’t be legally tied to Hunter Biden no matter what info they contain.
Regarding the Hamas attack knowingly allowed to happen, there are countless x-IDF members on interview who worked on the border stating it is impossible that the most highly armed and guarded border was breached so easily in such a manner and there was no response for 7 hours. There are many intelligence experts on the record stating same.
Regarding your narrative around the southern border, I would not argue with it. Open borders is a globalist policy, we are seeing it everywhere in Europe as is not in the US. Across Europe all parties left and right have bought into the ideology, its the same in the states
Your mentally ill, with the disease of Antisemitism, Zionist Globalists? Really and next your going to say that Donald Trump was the greatest president ever.
Hamas was always regarded as an ASSET by the right-wing/fascists in Likud.
In August 2019, former prime minister Ehud Barak told Israeli Army Radio that Netanyahu's "strategy is to keep Hamas alive and kicking … even at the price of abandoning the citizens [of the south] … in order to weaken the Palestinian Authority in Ramallah." And there you have it.
I don't care about and have no vested interest in Gaza, the West bank or Israel.
What is going on there is a religious war, and everyone seems to be blithely ignorant of the at fact, or afraid to mention it, and I have no time for religions, I think that they are stupid and believers are childish, but that is me.
This conflict is a birthday gift to Putin, it is a bright shiny object thrown in front of the witless and feckless crows in the west, a distraction to take our attention off Ukraine while he gathers his forces to commit real genocide and obliterate a nation, it's culture, its language and its people, the Baltic States and Moldova are next, and here we are kevetching about a perpetual war between two religions.
And yes it is in fact a religious war, because all over the world, especially in Wayne Co., MI Muslims are standing up for their religious brethern against the Jews.
The actions of the Ummah (community of Muslims) in voting uncommitted in Wayne Co. MI and the fact that not even half are Palestinian in origin, is proof that this is a religious war; their identity IS THEIR RELIGION. Unlikr Jews, Robert Reich and many secular Jews are anti Zionist and even pro Palestinian, because they are unware that the conflict is really a religious war, as old as the religio of Islam.
The Quran and hiddiths, make allowances for people it calls "Peoples of the Book" (actually peoples of the scroll,but book will do. The book is the Bible, the people are Christians and Jews.
They are permitted to live under Islamic rule, so long as the pay the jizzyah (poll or head tax) and submit to a second class status as dhimmi's.
Lee, you are an observant and smart man. Regretfully, RR's blog is full of cretins far worse than trumptiles because while the latter have some, albeit repugnant to civilized people principles, the lefty radicals have none, and no solutions either. They somehow have an urge to pity someone, apparently to elevate their own self respect, as well as an overpowering need to be against, just against.
Mind you that if their shenanigans bring us Trump, they would be nowhere near fighting, just crawl in their holes and sit quietly, maybe even support the new regime - lack of principles.
For years I considered myself a leftie, a progressive, that is until Putin invaded Ukraine,and then I witnessed the extreme left come out, albeit obliquely, for Putin, by being against any intervention or help to Ukraine, in fact on the Thom Hartmann substack there are some Putin leftists, who attack Biden and America calling us imperialistic, and completely ignoring the imperialism of Putin and Russia.
And they are joined by witless, feckless, lemmings on the left. I thought that only those types were on the right. I thought that only right wing fascists, joined lockstep in causes and ideology, boy Ukraine and HAMAS have been a rude awakening. All I see on the left these days are malleable minds, and conformist sheep.
It seems that if one adopts an identity, then one proceeds to adopt any and all causes associated with that identity.
Not me, I consider everything like a pie or pizza. I can take a slice here and there, but not eat the whole damn thing, doing so gives one heartburn and indigestion.
Lee--The entire thing has been and always will be religious in nature. That part of the world, as it stands today, has no solution to a problem that apparently doesn't want to be answered..
Religion looses its appeal, before that. It is a psychological tool, used to control men by controlling their minds, It is and has been used to justify everything from eliminating enemies via human sacrifice, to slavery, to misogynistic domination of women, to the rule of Kings.
Those who believe are word controlled humans, willingly led by shepherds who use the thing called god as a sock puppet.
The purpose of a shepherd is to tend the flock, till it is time for the fleecing and slaughter.
The US needs to quit vetoing ceasefires at the UN. I am ashamed of my country! If Palestine was doing this to Israel, there wouldn't be a veto. This white supremacy crap needs to end. I also want to know why every American that is publicly against this genocide is losing their jobs or getting censured in Congress while the members of Congress that say all Palestinians should be slaughtered aren't censured.
I read a white paper describing how well-funded pro-Israel groups in this country have, for decades, intensively lobbied to have Palestinians equated with terrorists. They have been very successful in obtaining anti-terrorist legislation toward this end. For example, the Oklahoma City bombing, which was committed by white domestic terrorists, was used as an excuse to enact legislation against foreign (read Palestinian) terrorists. Here is the link to the website: https://ccrjustice.org/anti-palestinian-core-origins-and-growing-dangers-us-antiterrorism-law
She said NOTHING about those events as “not terrorism.” Your counter argument is dishonest. Palestinians are of course ANGRY about decades of injustice and subjugation, and some do believe that a fierce reaction is appropriate (which of course would be seen as “terrorism” by those receiving the reaction), but, even under these conditions, many Palestinians just want a just resolution, and do not support terrorism. Your response is willful blindness to that. To you, everyone who stands in Israel’s way is a terrorist, full stop. Even the little babies are terrorists. Am I being unfair to you now? How does that feel?
The acts organized and carried out by the PLO - - representing ‘Palestinians’ in the UN going back decades. Were these acts of terrorism - you seem unsure?
“ every American that is publicly against this genocide is losing their jobs” ? Can you name some please? Also who in Congress has said that All Palestinians should be slaughtered?
Actors and agents: Susan Sarandon, Maha Dakhil, Bella Hadid, Mia Khalifa. Students graduating college were having offer letters withdrawn. This article was in the Chicago Tribune. Rashid Tlaib was censured in the House of Reps for calling it genocide. Just google for more names and examples. AIPAC is pouring money into primaries to get rid of politicians asking for a ceasefire.
Okay, did not know about the actors / agents. That's why I asked. As far as students graduating, it's an employer's right not to hire someone for any reason whatsoever. Rashid Tlaib was rightly censured especially because 1) it isn't genocide (the Palestinian population has greatly increased over the years; how can it be genocide? 2) It's just her way of being anti-semitic as she has nothing of substance to say.
What is happening is not a genocide. Americans are willfully ignorant of so many things, throw a phrase and they jump on it, like hungry crows.
There is no chance at all, that Israel can, ,,much less attempt to obliterate Arabs or Muslims. If the Jews were of genocidal mind, they would start with the 2 million Arabs that live within the borders of Israel, and have voting rights, some have even served in the Knesset.
Now show me one Muslim, much less an Arab, land that can say the same about Jews.
Correct, genocide is what Hitler did to the Jews. He Systematically setup death camps with the intention of killing all the Jews of Europe.
Israel is defending itself from an evil terrorist group to protect its people. I would not call this genocide. This word is being used in the wrong context here.
I totally agree,and it irks me that self indulgent, brainwashed and ignorant people accuse Israel of Genocide, they have been sucked into Islamic terrorist propaganda. None of this "advocates" would last a day in an Islamic society.
If I understand correctly, every Arab country threw out their Jews in 1948 -- and kept their assets by the way. So when the Palestinians cry about their right of return and all they lost, well it's a little one-sided isn't it?
Exact;ly. The problem is lack of history, ignorance and that thousands year old bete noir, Jew hatred.
The problem is that westerners, especially Americans, are too easily propagandized, I think the problem is they are lazy, and let others tell them what to do, believe. Critical thinking is hard work, and means being skeptical of all claims, taking time to read. And we know that critical thinking is a deficit on the right, but it also appears to be a deficit on the left.
And then there is the bandwagon problem. The propensity for people, those lacking the ability to think for themselves, jumping on the bandwagon because it is the "thing" and well, everyone else is doing, especially the peers, the sheep, with whom they wish to ingratiate themselves.
I'll say what has been said over and over again -- because it's true. If Israel wanted them dead, they'd be dead a long time ago. You do not understand who you're dealing with. The fact is, we are NOT a people who by nature enjoys killing, but if Palestinians require that we fight back and fight back hard, we will. I will also state that the civilian casualty rate is by far the lowest in the history of warfare, despite the insane circumstances -- far below what is considered acceptable (or should I say proportionate).
One more thing. Let's be accurate and not throw around words because it sounds progressive/woke/cool. Genocide means the "deliberate and systematic destruction of a group" (Britannica). There is no intention on Israel's part. There never has been. Every war, every altercation has been started by one or more of the Arab countries, some of whom -- I am thrilled to say -- have decided to create diplomatic relations with Israel. And not one of which, interestingly enough, wants to take in the Palestinians and re-settle them.
Until Putin invaded Ukraine, I was a financial supporter of the Intercept. But no longer, they and Democracy Now are nothing more than old line Marxists of the Tankie variety https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tankie
I have absolutely no use for the Intercept. I once thought Jeremy Scahill was some kind of hero, I no longer do.
I still get their newletter, but don't even read it. I have no respect for them anymore, it disappeared when they took the side of Putin., not directly but obliquely.
A ceasefire means that HAMAS has won the war, it means that they now have time, to rebuild, reform, reorganize and attack again at a later date, knowing full well that the Jews can't defend, because the world is full of people like you Stephanie.
Image a band of brigands roaming through your neighborhood, killing friends and families and then dragging hostages back to their neighborhood, and daring anyone to do anything about it, because they are using their own people and hostages as human shields.
What is going on between Gaza and Israel has nothing to do with white supremacy and more do with Islamic supremacy.. Jews and Arabs are both of mixed race. White Arabs and White Jews, black Arabs and black Jews. Neither Arab or Jew is a race.
Stephanie, were you aware that the US has an ongoing resolution for a temporary ceasefire? To ask for a permanent ceasefire while Hamas still has 100 hostages doesn't make sense. Hamas could end this TODAY if they would give up the hostages and surrender themselves.
Well the "deal" you speak of was reported February 7, which Netanyahu rejected, not the US., though the "devil is in the details". So the US is still pressing (just last week) for at least a temporary ceasefire despite Israel's rejection of the Hamas offer. Please enlighten us as to how Biden/US can force a sovereign nation who was attacked to leave the country which attacked them?
Here is an article from the Jewish Voice for Peace detailing the year leading up to the festival attack. While I don't condone what was done by Hamas, how long can you torture a country before they fight back? https://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/2023/11/24/countdown-to-genocide/. I mourn every loss of life be it Isreali or Palestinian.
That’s the thing. People need to go back way before Oct. 7. Look to 1948. Palestinians were driven out of the villages that they lived in for generations and reaching back thousands of years. Since then those that remained have been murdered, subjugated and treated badly. They had homes and lands stolen. Israel controlled the airspace, imports/exports and. Israel built walls and checkpoints and has imprisoned Palestinians without charge for years. Bombings have occurred on a regular basis for decades. So if people wonder why Hamas and other groups engage in armed resistance? Decades of oppression and the fact that nonviolent protests don’t work (Israel shot at protesters in 2018 for doing that). Think about how this would feel.
It is also helpful to consider non state actors are not all the same. Hamas is Palestinian resistance and tends to limit itself to Palestine (Gaza). ISIL is not there and has different goals.
The article you reference is decidedly one-sided and leaves out numerous details that are "inconvenient". A simple reading of the establishment of Israel on Wikipedia will fill in those gaps. Yes, I mourn both sides, and Netanyahu is a bad leader who needs to go. But the tit for tat and bad faith has been going on since the beginning, and as others have stated here, Palestinians have rejected more than one opportunity towards a peaceful solution and a second state. Passing the blame to a US administration which is trying to undo the horrific "anything goes" policy of Trump years isn't easy, and like it or not, Israel is the only democracy and ally in a volatile region.
How indeed? I only hope that this is all lip service on Biden's part in order to keep on the good side of the Arab / Muslim population, especially in Michigan. Although, Trump is far more anti-Muslim so honestly I can't see them voting for Trump in the general.
How can the UN justify the genocide of Jews, which is exactly what is going on and has been since 1948, and more poignantly it is a religious war of Islam against the Jew.
It started in Medina when Muhammad had all 600 members of the Jewish Tribe of Banu Quaryza beheaded and is sanctified in the holy haddith of al Bukhari. Which reads:
"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem)."
Let me translate, the day of judgment is the end times, when all the world is Muslim.
Genocide of any kind is an abomination. But now, right NOW, thousands of innocent civilians are being killed in Gaza. Regardless what happened two millennia ago, or two decades ago, this slaughter is wrong.
Would you excuse it if, tomorrow, a Native American tribe murdered all the residents of a small town adjacent to a reservation because the tribe's ancestors were killed by Americans 300 years ago?
Well Denise,blame HAMAS who uses its citizens as human shields. The cowards they could stop it any day, but surrendering and being tried for crimes against humanity . They don't have to surrender to the Jews, they can surrender to the UN.
Hamas was the proximate cause of this war, absolutely. But Israel’s slaughter of tens of thousands of civilians is not the answer. Suppose Hamas representatives surrendered. What are the chances that Israel would accept that? I wouldn't be surprised if the killing continued, because Israel would say it had to root out every single Hamas member. And then there's the question of violent seizure of Palestinian property in the West Bank by "settlers." Not to mention that Netanyahu has unequivocally ruled out a two-state solution. Neither side is blameless, but innocent women, children, and helpless people in hospitals shouldn't have to pay the price for leaders' viciousness, religious fanaticism, and stupidity.
Israel is not slaughtering Gazans on purpose, anymore than the allies slaughtered Germans and Japanese.
HAMAS is an existential threat to Israel, and they are hiding behind the civilian population,using them as human shields, to get the worlds sympathy (like you for example)
There is a solution, HAMAS the cowards, surrender to the UN for trial of crimes against Humanity, fat chance that will happen, so the only way that Israel can get to those that pose and existential threat is through the defenses, which in this case are the humans that HAMAS uses as shields.
HAMAS are cowards, the leadership brags that they are a nation of martyrs, but not the leadership only the idiots that they recruit and hide behind.
I think some who expressed almost orgasmic joy when learning of the Oct 7th pogrom lost their jobs in some cases. [Was that your reaction too? Asking for a friend.]
I don't think I have seen anyone react with orgasmic joy. As I said, I mourn every loss of life, so no, I didn't react to it with orgasmic joy. Do you have an example you can show me of someone reacting with orgasmic joy?
In the Israeli newspaper Haaretz Biden's plan is extolled as the only sensible one (indeed really the only one at all), while Netanyahu is understood to just be in it for himself. What your friend Mr. Avishai has written is exactly in sync with what they are saying. Let's get it through to our politicians. The world has a slim "window of opportunity" for real progress there.
Yes, let’s all buy into Israeli propaganda and reward their attempt at a genocide with whatever plan they are pushing. It is not just Netanyahu that is the problem. Israel is a colonizing apartheid state that has abused Palestinians since the beginning. There are protesters from Israel BLOCKING AID TRUCKS. There are Israelis sneaking into Gaza to start building settlements. Israel is a monster and should no longer exist
The United States enslaved black people for a hundred years and committed genocide against numerous Native American tribes in the 19th century in a purely colonial context. Do you think the United States is a monster that should no longer exist? Why not?
Jews are indigenous to Israel and the Middle East in general and have just as much a right to be there as Arabs, who colonized what is now the land of Israel between 632 AD-700AD. The first slaughter of innocent Jews by Muslims took place two years after the Qu'ran appeared in Medina in the year 624. It's part of the Muslim historical record, not just the Western historical record.
But the Palestinians deserve a state, and the Jews do not? Educate yourself. Your hatred and ignorance are equally appalling.
The Arabs, likely Africans and Europeans as well, regardless of faith, have been there at least since 3500 BCE. We know that from archaeology dating to that time which showed a thriving metropolis and trade center in what is now considered Israel/Palestine. Then it was called Canaan.
Abraham migrated from Mesopotamia (Iraq) in 1853 BCE, along with many others from throughout the region who would later be known as the Israelites. Racially, he was what we call Arab. Like people today, he sought opportunities and went where the opportunities were. Canaan was civilized and populated 2000 years before Abraham ever set foot in it.
Canaan became Palestine 3500 years ago, based on Egyptian hieroglyphics calling it such. These are actual facts, backed up by science and archaeology.
The land was never empty. It existed and was home to many tribes long before Judaism, Christianity or Islam ever existed.
I agree with your last sentence. But the main thing that is discrediting of your scholarship is your assertion that the biblical Abraham even existed. We have no proof of that. None. Especially not that Abraham of Mesopotamia, who I assume you mean was Abraham, father of the Jews (?), migrated in 1853 BC. We don't know anything for sure about almost any specific individual in 1853 B.C. There isn't even historical proof that Jesus of Nazareth existed exactly when we think he did. And that was only 2000 years ago.
"Canaan became Palestine 3500 years ago": False. Herodotus first used the term 2500 years ago, and it's unclear that he wasn't talking about what is Syria today. More important, no one was called a "Palestinian" before the year 1922. If you think I'm wrong, I'll need you to cite a primary source.
Also, while Arab traders (and raiders) surely made it to Jerusalem pre-Islam, just as Jews were in Medina pre-Islam, Arab civilization was almost 100% in the Arabian Penninsula before the year 630. And there is archaeological evidence that the ancient Greeks built a fortress in Jerusalem more than 2000 years ago (which is awesome), but none that any European civilization was there 3000 years ago or more.
I just read some of the replies to you. Geez. Sorry about those. Looking forward to continuing our debate offline.
You are correct. Prior to 1948, no state of Palestine existed. It was and still is a region.
Nation-states, as we currently define borders, have only existed for the past 500-600 years. They're a relatively new phenomena.
The nation of Israel, referring to the people of a common faith and culture, of course has existed for thousands of years under various names (Israelites, Hebrews, Jews, etc).
The political entity Israel, the nation-state, came into existence in 1948 and is currently recognized by 165 states—I had to look that up. I actually thought more nations recognized it.
To that end, as of 2012, the nation-state of Palestine is recognized by the UN. Today 139 of 193 members recognize it and several other nations are preparing to.
In the case of both nations, the number represents diplomatic recognition.
First off, what the colonists did to the native population of the Americas happened hundreds of years ago. Are you saying we have not evolved past that violent society? That we shouldn’t have higher ideals for government now? And yes, I do think we need a new America, one where the Native people are not held on reservations with little to no support or ability to take care of their own people.
The Jews that are indigenous to that area you call Israel were called PALESTINIANS. Majority of the population of Israel does not have ancestors that came from that area. Israel has actually made it illegal for Israelis to do DNA O test because of this.
Actually, Muslims have a long record of living peacefully with Jews.
YOUR hatred and ignorance is appalling! Stop swallowing Israeli propaganda and think for yourself!
My point was not that the United States wasn’t guilty of two major atrocities (slavery and genocide), but rather that Israel wasn’t, and yet you seem to think she doesn’t deserve to exist, but the United States does. This is hypocritical at best, antisemitic at worst.
The Land of Israel was never called Palestine before 1922, and the Jews were never called Palestinians before then. Arabs and Jews were only referred to by some as Palestinians from 1922-1948.
And as an expert on both Jewish and Arab history, I can assure you that I am aware that after Arab Muslims colonized Jerusalem in 638 AD, they eventually allowed Jews to practice their religion and live in peace as long as they paid a “jizyah” or tax to their Muslim rulers. Which was an improvement compared to Jews under Roman and then Christian rule.
The problem is, Arabs have also periodically ethnically cleansed their Jewish populations throughout history long before Israel was born. So yes, Muslims have a long history of living peacefully with Jews and a long history of slaughtering them too. Same as Europeans.
Last, roughly 45% of Israelis are of Middle Eastern descent and 55% of European and Ethiopian African descent. What you fail to grasp is that Jews made their way to Europe after being expelled from Arab and Northern African lands. Ashkenazi Jews and Mizrahi Jews share 20% DNA in common. This was only proven in the last 15 years, but it’s important for everyone to understand.
None of this is Israeli propaganda. Just historical and scientific fact.
I said the current America should not exist. Israel IS COMMITTING GENOCIDE! Their own leaders say so publicly and proudly! You want me to be hypocritical so you can dismiss my arguments, but I’m not. The name of the country is just a name. Israel cannot exist because it is now associated with a violent genocide. That’s just not going to fly. Whereas, the US crimes committed on the land it holds now was far back enough that the country could still be called America.
I do not seriously believe you are an expert in history if you didn’t even know the land was named Palestine…
If you go far back enough we all come out of Africa. So you’re saying someone with 20% of DNA has a claim to that land. I’m 20% Scottish can I go and claim land in England for its ethnic cleansing of the Scottish?
You are so far gone down the rabbit hole of Israeli propaganda that im not going to even waste my time talking to you. Do your own research. Stop believing Israel and embarrassing yourself
I meant there has never been a country called Palestine. Of course there was a region. But I was unclear. My bad.
Israel cannot exist because it is now associated with a violent genocide (is there any other kind?). If that's true, then I guess Germany can't exist anymore either. Do you agree they committed genocide?
And by your definition of genocide, all the Allied Powers and the Axis Powers of WW2 are guilty of genocide. So the U.S., Great Britain, Japan, Russia, Germany: none of them should be countries anymore? Gotcha.
Last, I am an Ashkenazi Jew and have 0% African DNA, but share 20% of my DNA with my Mizrahi cousins. See the difference? Big difference. Part of antisemitism is denying that the Jews are a people. I don't want to accuse you of antisemitism, but you're making it hard.
The land was named Palestine after the main enemy of the Jews, the Philistines. This was done to mock Jews after they were forced off the land. Artifacts exist in Israel which have been excavated to show Jewish existence on the land first. They buried the artifacts to try to hide Jewish existence and renamed the land Palestine.
Crystal, I think Matt's reference to using the term Palestine beginning in 1922 refers to the year the British were appointed to administer the region under a League of Nations mandate. So from 1922 the term "Palestine" referred to an administrative state rather than region (though admittedly mostly a formality).
I cannot tell you how refreshing it is to read your posts on this topic. I stumbled on another writer here on Substack, who claims to be a journalist with a pedigree and was treated to historical revisionism, inaccurate facts and blatant Islamophobia and misdirected messianic delusions. It was one of the most shocking pieces I have ever read, liked by over 70.
The comments were even worse. Thank you for sticking to facts, humanity and moral decency Robert. It makes a difference.
You might point that out to him with examples, Dr. Kaufman. The difference between Mr. Reich and others is he does take constructive criticism and makes adjustments when required. He's honestly trying to approach this issue fairly, I believe. As someone who covered Gaza for ten years, I can tell you that is extremely difficult. I don't always agree with his analysis, but I appreciate his efforts and opinions because they come from a position of seeking truth, trying to make sense out of chaos and approaching it from a human rather than dogmatic position.
The media using passive rather than active descriptions when Palestinians are killed and making the inference they are somehow could be at fault is not fair or constructive. It appears his urging is more to salvage his hopes of Biden being re-elected than any authentic concern for the people of Palestine. Robert Reich was posting articles making excuses for Biden's declining cognitive state up until a few weeks. It is a positive that he is at least covering the topic as most pro-Biden pundits are skirting the issue altogether, and I'm certain covering Gaza is "difficult" but I do not find the topic to be terribly complicated in light of the power imbalance between the two factions.
I'm beyond ticked off at the media in general over this (and Biden. Don't get me started). Nice to know I'm not the only one.
Have you ever seen the show "The Listening Post?" It's on Al Jazeera and all they do is cover how the media covers events worldwide. Since 7 October, the focus has been on the spin of the coverage of what is happening in Gaza, but they do a great job of covering global media. India's media is beyond nuts. It is by far my favorite weekly news magazine and I've been watching it since 2013. Highly recommend it if you're concerned about media, reporting and information and disinformation. I've been in the industry over 30 years and it kills me to see what has become of it. https://www.aljazeera.com/program/the-listening-post/ Going offline. Have a great night!
A phobia is an irrational fear. There is nothing irrational about wanting to keep fundamentalist Terrorist Muslims at bay, and unempowered. Note that I am NOT talking about all Muslims. Fundamentalist, terrorist Muslims who are, at core, anti-West. We do not need anymore useful idiots. Wake up and recognize what they are.
Who are you writing about: Iran, Saudi, Hamas? I am fully awake.
Hamas is not fundamentalist. Religiously, they're middle of the road.
The Saudis are as varied in their beliefs as any American ranging from ultra conservative to extremely progressive. Like the US, the more rural, the more fundamentalist. I know. I lived there.
The Iranians as a people and a society are closer to America than any other nation in the region. They've got a legitimate issue with us. We overthrew their democratically elected government in 1953 (with the British) because Mossadegh wanted to nationalize the oil so the people of Iran would benefit. BP and American oil companies preferred to benefit. As a progressive democrat, we, the US and UK, decided Mossadegh had to go. We then put a dictator in place which led to the revolution twenty-five years later and the pendulum swinging to the hard right. The society is slowly moving toward the center again over the past ten years.
What the Arab and Persian world are is anti-arrogance. They (West Asia) want us to stop bombing them, stop treating them like children and for us to have some respect for their culture, history, their faith and their lives. Currently, we (the West) don't do any of that. Instead we brand them terrorists, trash their religion, destroy their countries, support policies that kill their children and insist our way of doing things is the only right way. They've got good reason to be pissed at us, fundamentalist or not.
The "terrorists" and radical "fundamentalists" didn't exist with a vengeance against the West until the 20th century following WWI. Ask what happened in the last 105 years to change that. Israel is part of that, but only a branch on the tree of provocations. Why didn't the Romans, Ottomans, or Mamluks have to deal with "Terrorist Muslims?" These were empires and proxies in their lands too, yet for 1400 years, no "Terrorist Muslims." Now consider the Taliban, Daesh, Al Qaeda and other movements, all created in the last 40 years. Why now and what changed?
Please stop booklicking for Biden. He will be remembered for the war criminal that he is. My generation wants a REAL choice and true democracy and Biden is not the answer to the path forward.
No but I won’t be black mailed or guilt tripped into the “lesser or two evils” narrative that we’ve been and will continue to be sold on unless we collectively stand up for real change. I’m trying to actually create a better vision and belief in the future by actively engaging in my community and the causes I care about.
It's not a guilt trip if that is the choice. The question is merely if you are ok with what Trump will do as President. For one thing, I doubt he will be helping the Palestinians.
Trump wont be helping ANYONE but that’s not the point. The Democratic Party needs a serious wake up call and there is a large collective engagement at this moment in time to try and send that message. My current plan is to vote for Cornell West. I want a better future for the rest of my life, not just the next four years.
Are democrats doing anything seriously to help any of the causes I care for (environment, health care, housing, mental health, etc.)? The answer is no. Many dems and repubs are just two sides of the same coin.
I don't disagree with you, this has to end, but it will not under Trump and a vote for anyone other than Biden IS a vote for Trump. Sad but true. And I don't know that WE survive a second Trump presidency - look at his 2025 plan for women, is that the future you want? Because that's what a vote for anyone other than Biden will bring you. Honestly, I wish Joe had stepped aside but what we have is what we have. And Trump can never be in the Oval Office again for the world's sake, not just Gaza's.
I don't that WE survive a Biden presidency as he escalates tensions with China and North Korea and inches us towards nuclear confrontation with Russia in an unwinnable proxy war that he fostered by actively interfering with peace negotiations in March of 2022.
But it is the point. Why didn't you do anything before now to try and get a better candidate? Why do you think throwing your vote to Cornell West will send a message? That's fine, if you want to do it, but then the question is, what are you going to do, if Trump is the President?
What is your plan of action then? Also, I am on the same side as you as far as what Biden has done on many issues, but there are others he is succeeding in. If we expect people to be pure in every issue that they need to resolve, we will end up with people like Trump who are complete lying sociopaths.
There is NO USE in voting for West or anyone but Biden. Please think about this long and hard.... Biden needs every vote he can get - or we'll be doomed with trump.
The honorable thing for Cornel to have done was to run in the Democratic primary instead of as an Independent. He would've gotten more coverage, infused more progressive ideas into the contest, & not jeopardized the chances of the eventual Democratic nominee.
I also disagree with his stance on the conflict in Ukraine, which is far too conciliatory to Russia.
Democracy is messy. Our Democracy has become increasingly less democratic due to gerrymandering, the electoral college, the Senate filibuster, a SCOTUS which is skewed in favor of favor of the wealthy, ever-increasing income inequality, and a media interested in only money at the expense of truth and fairness. Most of us here sympathize with your concerns; many of us are politically active (working with campaigns, giving $$, etc.). We need a younger generation which believes in a better future. But keep in mind that change is often slow, and it often takes crisis to bring about positive outcomes. In the mean time, compromise is usually necessary. The Democratic Party still understands this; the GOP does not. But if we can't work together somehow (as Sen Langford negotiated in good faith with Sen Murphy on immigration), nothing good will ever be possible.
A vote for Cornell West is a vote for Trump. You don’t have to like the lesser of two evils, but you do need to research the Electoral College and have an understanding as to what your vote means.
Exactly. Trump didn't want any Muslims entering this country, which -- if you take a look at what's going on in Europe -- I could actually support. The one thing about Trump I could support.
And what, exactly, is going on in Europe that would justify persecuting people solely on the basis of their religion? I spend a lot of time there and seem to be missing it.
In terms of religious fanaticism I do not see any distinction between Islamic, Christian, Jewish, or Hindu extremists. I think the breeding of fanaticism is a natural byproduct of all religions' doctrinal assertion that theirs is the one and true path. And, sadly, if affects us atheists as well.
Read Project 2025. The concentration and extermination camps haven't started. In general summary and exjudical murder are not yet legal. We are at a tipping point, but have not yet tipped.
I disagree. The camps and summary and ex judicial murders have been in place for many years. The Israelis have killed 6,400 Palestinians since 2008, not counting the recent fatalities. (During this same time period roughly 300 Israelis have been killed.) The Israeli prisons are full of Palestinian children.
Seriously? Nothing will stop him from his sick narcissistic ambitions if he gets in for a 2nd term. Get your head out of the sand! So glad I’m not long for this world.
I tried that in 1968. I didn't trust Humphrey, and at least I had the excuse that I didn't think Nixon could win, so I voted for Dick Gregory. Nixon the crook won, extended the war in Vietnam far beyond what Humphrey would have, and started the GQP on the corrupt road to Trump via Reagan, Gingrich, and Moscow Mitch.
Now you want to do the same thing starting with TRUMP as the baseline? That will almost certainly lead to an American Caligula and an atomic war. So go ahead, be too proud to be black mailed or guilt tripped into the “lesser or two evils” narrative and help the greater of two evils win. I just don't know if you'll have as long to live to regret it as I have.
I know you want real change; so did I, but you won't get it unless you can get MILLIONS together, and there is nobody running third party who can do that this time.
Marianne Williamson is a better candidate in my opinion but another 4 years of trump would destroy democracy so the sane thing to do is ; Unite in stopping trump and when that is done go full speed ahead to fix the democratic party for 2028
Williamson, unlike Cornel, did the right thing by running in the Democratic primary, which gives Democrats a chance to vote for whomever they prefer in the primary, then the nominee in the general election.
Emily, please don't teach your grandmothers to suck eggs. And please accept that at this point the choice is the 2 status quo parties. If you don’t vote Democrat, you are endorsing fascists.
American fascism has been spread around the world by the likes of Biden and Obama. Democratic Party fascism takes its form in McCarthyism, Zionism, the silencing of women of color in their party, the firing and demonization of pro-Palestinian and anti-war voices, the appointing of a presidential nominee without a primary process, Nancy Pelosi's call for the FBI to investigate pro-Palestinian protestors as agents of Putin and so on. There is a very long list indeed, and many of us understand that the reason Trump got into office was the indulgence of the worst tendencies of American empire by Obama and Biden.
You're absolutely right, Barry, but honestly, I don't think this country is ever going to change. It's tragic and infuriating but this is essentially a conservative country. I've been fighting it for almost sixty years and it's never gotten any better. So my feeling is that we only have a choice between the lesser of two evils. However in this case one of them will definitely finish us so we absolutely have to vote for Biden.
Unlike you Mary, I’m actually working towards change in this world and will vote accordingly. I will not accept the status quo and I am NOT endorsing fascism. Use your keyboard warrior adages on someone else, grandma.
You have no idea of what I have and haven't done or what I've seen changed and still hope to change. I am not a grandmother. And this is far, far from my first rodeo. If I were you I'd chose to accept realpolotik, not tilt at windmills. You may not be endsorsing fascists, but by voting for a 3rd part candidate, you are stripped votes from a candidate that could beat Trump. I hope that, in the event your pride in your refusal to compromise is sufficient comfort to offset the suffering Trump is promising.
Consequences--intended or not--are still consequences. Whether you endorse fascism or not is irrelevent; whether you enable it is a more important question.
Emily, you may want to take your judgy attitude and retire it. You have no idea what people are or are not doing. You also have no idea what people have lived through or advocated for in words or actions. You keep saying you are making the world better? You are doing that by putting down others who have lived through a lot more harder things than younger generations have. So please stop telling yourself you are part of the solution when you never experienced the problems in any real way.
I was that way until 2020, but now that the survival of democracy is on the line, I will vote for the Democrat. Besides which, no 3rd party or Independent candidate this year is better.
However, 73% of the electorate, including 61% who voted for Biden in 2020, say Biden is too old. (Yes, Trump is almost as old, but he is able to project a more vigorous image.) The Democratic Party should respond by running strong, sharp younger candidates, but the DNC has a knack for sabotaging Democrats' chances.
I'm not sure I've ever seen as strong & nearly universal admiration & approval of anyone by Democrats as much as Jamie Raskin. Run him & Democrats would crush Republicans in 2024.
Jaime, that so-called vigorous image is just wishful thinking and blindness on the part of people who have an axe to grind with Biden. Trump is fat, old, and unhealthy. Biden looks much better to me. These people are wearing rose-colored glasses.
I have noticed how both sides claim their guy is fine while the other guy is slipping mentally if not totally demented. The truth is somewhere in the middle for both guys. The side that realizes that & chooses a younger, sharper, stronger, more vigorous, & more obviously competent candidate is the side likely to win.
I don't disagree. I think Biden is being very foolish and we could all end up much worse off for his stubbornness. I'm just saying that Trump's fans are deluding themselves. (And Biden's fans, if he can be said to have fans, like him because of what he's done, not because he's athletic or runs around holding rallies.)
Emily, guilt tripped is not the word to use. You choose to ignore significant accomplishments of Biden. I too am angry that he doesn’t fist-pound when talking about Netanyahu. We should not be an outlier with the UN by not calling for a ceasefire. But, if you think both are equally bad, you are sadly mistaken. We will see groups targeted for genocide here. You will not be able to protest any of it. The choice is Biden or Fascism. We can force issues once the rescumliCons implode. We have to put more Progressives down ballot. We must get control of Congress! Have you read the plan? 2025?
Btw, I threw away my first vote on an independent named John Anderson. Although he was a great candidate, he did not have a party backing him. My ignorant vote, due to my not understanding the electoral college, led to Reagan’s presidency. I would have much rather have had Carter but not understanding politics, I accidentally gave my vote to Reagan. 🤮
Any blackmail or guilt trip is your own bias telling you you are wrong in demanding the situation to be different than it is. The reality, the unvarnished truth is the choice is what it is. Who will you get behind? Will you get behind anyone or stand in the middle of a busy street and demand your concerns be addressed NOW. You make good points, now, is not the time to be taken seriously. My opinion.
Sorry but most of us aren't buying it anymore. What precisely is worse than genocide by a racist president? Have you noticed that Biden has expanded Trump's border policies repeatedly? And now he's inviting Trump to work on a southern border bill and offering to shut it down? No, we don't need amoral leaders who look only at the next election. This is how we got Trump in the first place. Only a small fraction of the population actually wants either of these incompetents as president and the fact that Democrats have to scare everyone with the prospect of Trump shows how desperate the situation has become.
This attitude is exactly what those with real power love and seek . Division and conflict. People have to forget about left and right, and come together. The system is broken from the bottom up. The dems have turned into a bunch of globalist debauched sell outs. Many of the other side are too.
Trump is no angel, he’s a narcissistic nut, but he is an enemy of the globalist deep state, so for that reason, I would support him and hope for the best, maybe RFK might join him, but he too has been compromised and is most certainly being blackmailed by the Zionist elite. Not many other options.
VV: "the globalist deep state"--I mean the real one, not the mythical one you have in mind--has give us unprecedented prosperity and has prevented, thus far, an all-out WW III. Believing conspiracy theories, and trusting Santa Claus to save us, is pathetically naive. Diversify your sources of information.
You’re 33 Trillion in debt, fighting never ending wars and throwing over democratically elected governments globally since the 1950s. Your country is on the verge of total ruin and your reputation globally in ruins. You have a fenthanol crises, an immigration crises, a debt crises, an education crises. Your president is talking to dead people and funding and promoting wars while neglecting those at home, but hey, all ok 👍👍
VV: I am sorry you feel neglected, and I trust your feelings are based on fact, not myth. Yes, the country is in deep trouble, and so is the rest of the world, but, as in historian, I can tell you that things could be a lot worse than they are now. The cup that is half empty is also half full. Don't trust people who tell you that complex problems have simple solution,, and individuals who tell you that if you give them enough power they will deliver you from your troubles. You live in a country that has a Constitution, which provides due process for resolving grievances and conflicts. This Constitution has served us well. Defend it!
No one has been been able to give me a clear explanation of the deep state, though one seemed to involve lizards wearing costumes. Could you please try to lay it out for me? Thanks
It’s positively disgusting. You have to have blind loyalty to Biden, Blinken, et al, to continue to support this admin, who has given their unending support to this genocide.
I have lost all respect for you, Robert Reich.
ISRAEL IS AN APARTHEID STATE. Netanyahu is a fascist dictator.
Biden dropping R2E meals is like Trump tossing paper towels to desperate Puerto Ricans after the hurricane. It’s diabolical in its callous disregard for what the U.S. has done to this beautiful population of people.
Thanks K Miller. I’m in the same boat, lost all respect for this man. I’ve unsubscribed from Robert after this post (admittedly I haven’t been reading much of what he’s posted because I’ve had this reaction to other “takes” of his).
Ah yes. Another Zionist apologist giving cover to the fascist, illegal occupier that is Israel, the state that has terrorized the Palestinians for decades, imprisoned thousands without charge, created the largest open air prison in the world, expelled millions from their homes and lands and turned them into refugees, enforced a blockade, rationed food and water…DECADES before Oct 7.
Stop the nonsense. The world didn’t pay any mind before now. But now the world knows what a pariah state Israel is.
Yeah, Israel is worse than China, the Sudan murders, and all the other states that are run by anyone but Jews. You are all so brainwashed that you don’t know up from down. What is the difference between Isis and Hamas? I hope you never have to find out.
lol of course you would feign persecution of Jews. The genocide they are committing against the Palestinians is being live-streamed. The brainwashed are those Israelis who teach their children to sing songs about ethnic cleansing of Palestinians. The brainwashed are IDF soldiers who are so convinced no one will stop them that they’re uploading videos of blowing up Palestinians homes and buildings and others where they glorify shooting Palestinians. The brainwashed are people like you who can watch endless videos and see the carnage and remain cold as ice to the hell Israel is raining down.
Please tell us what Biden should be doing and how would he accomplish it? Please also make public the private diplomatic conversations that you know that Blinken has been having around the clock with multiple Arab leaders, including Hamas, in an attempt to move towards peace. You obviously know much more than the rest of us!
Stop the nonsensical bs. Biden and Blinken gushingly support Netanyahu with billions of more dollars than previously given to the Israeli govt for months. We’re the only western nation that refuses to back the ICJ and the UN in calling for a ceasefire. We’ve cut off funding to UNWRA. No one paying attention believes the utter lies the Israeli govt keeps spouting.
K Miller, Bullshit. Nobody in the Biden admin is gushingly supporting Netanyahu. Just like MAGAs, this is so hysterical and laser focused on one thing. Where the hell have you been with so many other unnecessary deaths around the globe?! And yes, The British & US & Japan etc have been brutal and destructive. Where were you for all genocides!? Trump is a deadly seditionist inciter, a rapist, 91 indictments, he IS supporting FASCISM! And you want to convince me trump & Biden are the same?! I don’t think so!
With Trump in the White House Putin will be allowed to overrun Europe. For that reason alone he needs to be stopped. Of course there are countless others. Biden is not perfect but he won't deport every immigrant, weaponize the Justice Department, sign a national abortion ban, or abandon NATO. Guess who would.
About 5 months ago, Biden practically French kissed Netanyahu - the Israeli president who was about to be tried for corruption and attempting to change the judicial system. Biden repeated all Bibi’s lies - saying babies were beheaded, Palestinian deaths were being inflated, etc, etc., then ordered billions of dollars in weapons be sent to Israel. Then he dared the ME to try and stop Netanyahu by sending in the Navy, followed by bombing the Houthis. He’s continued to push for more weapons and money to fund the assault.
No - you don’t want to see the truth that’s staring you in the face. Why don’t we all get busy and kick both Biden and Trump to the curb, eh? Because no one said Trump was better. But you will never get me to side with Genocide Joe. It’s time to push the DNC for an open convention. Ya’ll can continue to bury your heads in the sand…but Biden’s candidacy is toast.
You might as well vote for Trump then. This is not the election to waste your vote. Next time if there will be one. If Trump wins there might be not. Blame the two party system not me.
We vote for who we want to in this democracy that Democrats are saving yes? Why are you vote shaming and telling people how to vote in this glorious democracy of ours??
I am just realistic. No other candidate in the upcoming Presidential election has a chance to become President. Voting is a chess game not a vote for the person you like best. So if you don't want Trump to win you have to vote for the candidate which has the biggest chance of beating him. And that is Biden. Like it or not. Protest votes, not voting or voting for the candidate you like best will not do any good. Do I like this system? No! I wished the US would have three or four viable parties to make it a better competition and force more compromise. But this is the reality for this November. Afterwards if we still have a democracy let's all work on improving this system. And if the hanging chad fiasco in FL taught us as anything every single vote counts.
Okay, I'll really work to (probably not, but who knows) create some change.
"Going to the polls" in an election is not the same as giving one's opinion. Like an opinion poll, one only has a finite (and small) list of options. In a blog like this, one can give one's precise opinion, as you've done with your judgment of Pres. Biden. Fine. But the affairs of a collective of 330 million people cannot be run with 330 million opinions (on every subject, some changing frequently). Hence we choose representatives via a selective process in which we narrow the choices in successive steps. And hence, no matter what one might like, we have a small selection of candidates to choose for our votes. It is *always* the lesser of two (or more) imperfect choices, whether one chooses to call them evils or not.
That Cornel West (a great thinker and teacher) has chosen to run for president in this election, knowing he will siphon votes away from Biden, is one very good reason not to vote for him as a leader. He says that won't happen; he'll motivate more non-voters to come out than he might siphon away. That is his choice to believe; I don't. Third parties are not practical in a non-parliamentary system without ranked-choice voting; there is not a single counterexample, and plenty of statistical foundations for that assertion. Try to get the laws changed if you like; that's fine. But we won't have them this year, and a vote that might have gone to Biden that goes to someone else (or no one at all) is a vote for Trump. That is the reality.
Netanyahu has to go but he won’t, Biden can use all the pressure he wants but as long as Netanyahu is in charge…. That means the Israelis don’t remove him there will be problems. The US seems to have backed off total support but needs to back off more.
Don’t remove all aid, just remove or curtail MILITARY aid and for godsakes, the weaponry being used in Gaza. The US is Israel’s greatest ally. Who else would they turn to, Russia? But no, cynic that I am, I suspect the military and the weapons makers are jones-ing over the opportunity to sell and test out new weapons and do training on a live population.
He’s made himself a wartime president and like Trump, wants to stay out of prison. He’s a war criminal and needs to be tried and prosecuted at The Hague.
Please explain how Biden is a war criminal. We all want to understand how in seeking to broker a peace deal (negotiations as we speak) and having sought multiple means of getting aid to Gazans Biden qualifies as a war criminal. Which Gazans did he personally kill?
Not at all true. You can try and excuse Biden but all he has to do is stop sending weapons and stop blocking UN resolutions. If you haven't noticed, his actions completely contradict his rhetoric.
I suspect that Netanyahu and supporters come from the Henry Kissinger/Madeleine Albright school of geopolitics, where the sacrifice of citizen lives, children, even Israeli lives, is a price that is "worth it" in pursuit of the larger objective — essentially the complete obliteration of Palestine and its people.
Did you see the interview with Albright by Leslie Stahl on 60 Minutes after the Iraq war?
"We have heard that half a million [Iraqi] children have died. I mean, that is more children than died in Hiroshima," Stahl said. "And, you know, is the price worth it?"
"I think that is a very hard choice," Albright answered, "but the price, we think, the price is worth it."
Is that supposed to invalidate the point? The point is that too many leaders all around are necrophilic monsters who should be no where near the levers of power. Unfortunately, those are the types who tend to attain such positions.
Except Bill that not all people in such positions are "necrophilic monsters". Madeleine Albright was one of the most highly moral, compassionate,
and effective leaders we ever had. Too much "journalism" amounts to picking and choosing to support a personal agenda and/or plain shoddy and incompetent "research" to meet a deadline and "sell". Though Albright isn't able to defend her actions now, I will take the opportunity. Comparing her to Kissinger is preposterous. Night and day differences when you look at the sum of their careers. See my response to Chuck (and link) below. Does anyone here actually take the time to research FULLY before making BROAD assumptions???
Admittedly, I know little about Albright’s history and activities. I was going mainly off of her actual statement in the 60 minutes interview. But maybe it was over-interpreted by myself and pundits.
And you’re right, researching to get the full context is always important. It’s just that we are inundated with so much information these days that it’s hard not to shoot from the hip some of the time.
Hamas is the problem, not Israel. The surrounding Arab countries closing their borders is the problem, not Israel. Civilians should not be in a war zone. The only reason they are is because Hamas wants it that way, and the Arab countries are helping them. Hamas is the one who will not agree to a cease fire, not Israel. Progressives should not be backing Arab theocratic autocracies. We need to stand behind Israel, a democracy, instead. There are 22 Arab countries, many vast and wealthy. They can afford and they have room to help shelter civilians. They would rather spend the money on anti-Israeli propaganda that has people who should be able to spot it conforming to its ideas. You can tell the stolen election story is propaganda, why can't you see the Israel as bully and Palestine as victim story is a manipulation by Arab dollars? I stand with Israel. There is only one Israel, one Jewish homeland, a place where Jews have lived long before the first Palestinian ever appeared, and they were known then as Philistines. I wouldn't be bragging about that if I was them.
Palestinians deserve a homeland just as much as Israel does. Israel needs to stop breaking the law by continuing to illegally settle Palestinian territory.
Not when they use that land to attack Israel, launching rockets from rooftops in civilian areas. For almost 20 years Gaza was controlled by Egypt, the west bank was controlled by Jordan (1948-1967). Neither country saw a reason to create yet another Arab autocratic theocracy called Palestine. Israel is the one who agreed to a Palestinian state hoping for peace. Every gesture they have made for peace has been met with violence and hate. Hamas's stated goal is to kill all the Jews. That's why people became so upset with that "from the river to the sea" chant. That's what that meant, kill all the Jews. Israel is a democracy with over 2 million equal Arab citizens, not disenfranchised or treated differently in any way, unlike you may have heard in propaganda. Progressive Arabs like Israel's democracy and chose to become citizens. There are many Arab countries with zero Jews in its population. So calling Israel an apartheid nation is yet more Arab-funded propaganda.
I am speaking the truth. I am disappointed that so many of my fellow progressives have decided to stand up for terrorists, the type of a nation that treats women like chattel and criminalizes gay people. Israel is a democracy. I don't like Netanyahu, he should be gone, and they succeeded once in removing him. Fear is what puts people like him in power, and who caused that fear? Hamas.
That is pure propaganda, not an ounce of truth in it. Israel is a democracy with over 2 million Arab citizens included equally. Israel agreed to the establishment of Palestine hoping it would create peace for its citizens, but it never has because there has been one Arab terrorist group or another with an agenda to destroy Israel from the get go. Jews lived in Israel long before any Palestinians came over to occupy it. Book of Samuel is the first place any mention of them being in that area, and it says they (known as Philistines at that time) enslaved the children of Israel (the Jews). Learn history, it's helpful to create a broader world view. Look at who you are defending. They are not innocent of wrongdoing, they were not there first and then kicked out. That is propaganda. The whole world agreed that Israel would be restored as the Jewish homeland, the one and only Jewish homeland only about the size of New Jersey. There are 22 Arab countries, most of them are autocratic theocracies that deny rights to women and criminalize gay people. Israel took nothing from Palestine. If not for Israel agreeing to the two-state solution, there would not be a Palestine today. It had already been conquered and was occupied by the British at the time Israel was returned to the Jews as their homeland. But are they grateful for the chance to have their own homeland? No. They let it fall into the hands of one terrorist group after another with a stated goal of killing all the Jews. You're on the wrong side if you are liberal and progressive.
I find Jean's words to be true as well. My head isn't in my ass. My head is wondering how Palestinians could live like kept animals with 50 percent unemployment. Is there not one intellect that looks to their hand held electronic device and wonder how to get out, free oneself from Hamas rule? Then entire Gaza is a fishbowl of people being supported by other countries. Not one Navalny, only throwing stones at Israel. Netenyahu's time I think is past. His heart is as cold as Trump. If the hostages were released, it would be over.
My apologies. I misunderstood your original post. I agree with you about Palestinians needing to free themselves of Hamas, but how do they do that while they are also under the thumb of Israel?
Look into history not for who should "own " what but the history of them.
You don't understand woh Hamas is. When you figure out Hamas is an arm of Iran and connected to Russia the light begin to go on. Why is Bibi doing any of this? This horrid man is a Trump figure also connected to Putin. Please shake yourself awake. We want to be human, these people are bred, fed, and owned and used as human shields. It's horrid. Make it stop, we all want that or youre calling me a warmonger? We are indeed trying. The answer is not give them a plot of land. I don't know the answer. Get rid of Bibi, get aid in. Better cooler heads. Screaming at Joe shows a lack of grasping the situation.
I said I agree with you and I never called you a war monger. Anyone that doesn’t have their head up their ass knows Hamas doesn’t represent the Palestinians and is simply a pawn of Iran and Russia. I don’t believe that Israel should even exist as a nation. Why do Jews need a nation? Most religions don’t have a nation, as such. Many nations are dominated by a particular religion but don’t claim to exist because of that religion. We gave the middle east Israel to maintain power and control in the region. By the way, I never “screamed at Joe” I only spoke what I believe is the truth, he needs to stand up to Netanyahu and we need to stop giving Israel money and arms.
Israel the concept and the reality allowed for Jews to become citizens and gave the ability to own land. That privilege was denied around the world, historically. Additionally, being a Jew is part of a community, not a religion. I’m a Jew, I don’t go to temple. I am a Jew none the less. Yes, it is a religion too. One doesn’t have to be Jewish to be a citizen of Israel. There’s a bunch of assumptions people and you make many things surrounding these discussions. Your opinions are strong but come from a place of assumptions that this region and the people are the same as in the US. The corruption of corrupt Russians Jews now Israeli shouldn’t be overlooked. Bibi is not forgetting them ever.
More likely it's because all the adults have been killed.
“There’s an acronym used in Gaza, WCNSF: ‘Wounded child with no surviving family.’ According to media reports, an estimated 17,000 Palestinian children fall under that category,”
And that is the fault of Hamas and the surrounding Arab countries. Hamas could end it now by not firing rockets into Israel from civilian areas and then not letting the civilians leave that area, using them as shields.
Frankly, the “human shields” thing seems to be used as a hypnotic trigger-word to put people in a trance whereby the stop all further questioning. There is generally always more to the story than the simple black/white soundbites we get in mainstream media.
That claim has been made by a fairly reputable source, but Netanyahu denies it. There wasn't actual proof, or I'm sure he would have been prosecuted for it, because that would be treason. It was speculation. I don't want Netanyahu in charge of Israel any more than I want Trump in charge of the USA, but that doesn't change the fact that the whole Palestinians being kicked out of their homes by big bully Israel story is false. In the beginning those choosing to be displaced rather than becoming a citizen of Israel's democracy were paid so they could move elsewhere, according to Golda Meier in a talk at the Jewish Community Center in San Francisco in the 80s. The same thing happened then, though, the Arab countries closed their borders so those who did not want to live in Israel could not go back to their country of origin either. Most Palestinians are from other Arab countries. As bad as Netanyahu is, he never reached the same level of evil as Hamas. He didn't kidnap, torture and murder people. He didn't start this war on October 7 with acts of bone chilling terror, and then orchestrate it so that civilians could not leave the war zone. That was Hamas.
Thanks Jean for continuing to discuss! Glad we are on the same page regarding the likes of Trump and Netanyahu. And I don’t mean to condemn Israel as a whole.
But I have seen the videos of high rise apartment buildings being leveled by bombs and missiles. (You’ll note that a first order of business was to cut off phone and Internet access in Gaza. Apparently the world was not supposed to see what was about to happen.) That’s likely how thousands of non-involved citizens are killed.
I’m puzzled by your statement that most Palestinians come from other Arab countries. My understanding is they came from Palestine (at least pre-1948 Palestine).
Arafat was from Egypt and he is the most well-known Palestinian. The videos of civilians being killed is not the whole story. Why are they even there once Hamas started a war? Gaza became a war zone, and normally civilians are evacuated while the opposing military forces fight it out. Why is that not the case in this war that Hamas started? Because Hamas does not value human life, not even that of fellow Palestinians. They prevented civilians from leaving and on top of it, they are supported by the surrounding Arab countries refusing to allow more than a trickle of refugees past their borders. They can afford to shelter them safely while the war is going on, but they refuse to let more than a trickle in, mostly the badly wounded. They aren't poor, and they have a lot of space. Bottom line in this conflict, Hamas has a written credo calling for the death of every Jew in Israel, and a further call to jihad to kill every Jew in the world. That is why it is frightening for Jews to see those who normally support them suggesting the Palestinians are the victims here. They are not. They have always been the aggressor from ancient times to the present. They are claiming rights to land that they do not really have. If they had at one time, those rights have been forfeited once they used that land to launch attacks at Israel, rockets from rooftops, tunneling into Israel. The UN would not accept Palestine as a member because of their stated mission to kill all the Jews. Why is anyone standing up for them now? They are the threat. I would hope an intelligent leader would be like Obama and use intelligent ops to take out the leadership with minimal civilian injury and death, but the way Hamas uses the civilian population makes that much less possible. They use them like shields so they can cause outrage against Israel when they are going after those who have been killing innocent Jews and taking them hostage. They are not reasonable people, they are full of hate and they want to establish yet another autocratic theocracy that denies human rights for women and gay people.
Bob is coming rather late to this realization. Chris Hedges has been pointing out American and Biden’s complicity in the genocidal slaughter for months
When i was ten years old back in the 70s we prayed for “peace in the Middle East” every Sunday at church. We have been supporting Israel for far too long, only for our believed benefit.
Please do not call this a war. 31,000+ Palestinians dead, 75,000 injured. Palestine has no army or weaponry comparable to the Israelis. Gazans have no food, water, shelter, or medical supplies. It is a slaughter of an occupied people.
What about a Middle East Treaty Organization comprised of Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, to become the permanent security organization in Gaza? Neither Palestinian nor Israeli leadership can do anything to bring about peace. If we - the US - are leading the way, President Biden needs to propose a long term solution to Gaza as well as a Palestinian state. Both.
The US must support removal of Israel as "stewards" over Palestine by the United Nations. At best, Israel has treated the territories as subservient colonies. At worst, they could be said to be maintaining concentration camps. Netanyahu has sought to maintain a status quo by expanding settlements while kicking the can of Palestinian dissatisfaction into the future. It will not work. No more funding for Israel until changes are met. Biden must abandon the fence straddling policies. They aren't working. Note that support for improving the lot of the Palestinian people does not mean support for the actions of Hamas. This situation is a blistering pustule which must be lanced and cleaned out in order to heal.
Joe is putting more than just Palestinians at risk with his "discrete" behind the scenes plans. He's risking the election. He has to get out in front of this loud and clear, regardless how Israel feels about that, because this is just NOT sustainable, the level of civilian deaths so far exceeds the deaths in that abominable massacre that the moral ground is clearly an end to the carnage. It is, of course, on Hamas too, just release the hostages, this stops and people's heads and hearts can begin to clear and work on a lasting peace can begin.
As long as Hamas retains its position that all Jews must be killed they feed Netanyahu's war machine and ego which is as big as Trump's. Trump will not be helping Palestinians, people have to realize that. But what Biden is not doing in public isn't acceptable either. This can't be political calculus, it is a humanitarian crisis and Biden must be seen ending it. There's no other choice.
Excellent article and newsletter. Easier said than done. Netanyahu is a snake and can’t be trusted. He’ll patronize Biden to death until election time, while undermining any efforts to resolve the issue, and then pray Trump gets elected.
And why is the left and center in Israel paralyzed with fear? Israel was under attack, but the response is nothing less than a genocide.
Forget “middle class” Joe as his nickname. Biden will forever be known as “Genocide” Joe if he doesn’t reverse course soon. If this cease fire fails, then he must take stronger action.
Let’s hope the ceasefire happens, if not all bets are off. And make no mistake, Netanyahu and his right-wing cohorts are not a friend to America. They would gladly help destroy our republic and democracy; letting it slip into Trump’s kleptocratic, authoritarian hands, if it serves their interests.
And it definitely serves their interests. Both Trump and Netanyahu’s political fates will sink or swim together!
give us an address that we can forward your article to, so that they can know that we have read it and agreed. The women and children of the Gaza strip deserve some support
No more attacks on civilians in Gaza. Food/water/peace is what the people need now. The Palestinian people NEED/DESERVE a homeland also.
They had one and it was stolen and raped.
Not really, the Arabs tried to obliterate the Jews in 1948, they failed, again and again they tried, failed each time and the result is that they lost land each time.
They took their homes and land from them. Ancient history doesn't dictate modern land ownership anywhere else on Earth.
Here we go for the umpteenth time.I will try to educamate you.
There have always been Jews in that forsaken desert, even while the Ottoman Turks ruled it.
In the 1920's Theodore Herzl, toured Europe recruiting families to relocate to what was then Turkish controlled Palestine. The emigrees purchased the land from the inhabitants, what was basically an infertile land with some olive and orange groves, soon bloomed when the Jews built kibttuz and made the desert bloom.
Mark Twain visited Jerusalem and wrote that he found it a garbage dump. The Jews cleaned up the mess the Arabs had made.
In May 1948 Israel was declared a nation by the UN, in Nov 1948, the Arab neighbors, Jew hating Arab neighbors, shamed by what a handful of Jews had done to what was fallow desert, fell on the Jews to commit genocide. The outnumbered Jews beat the Arabs and confiscated land to extend their boundaries and try to ensure their safety.
This the "Palestinians" call the naqba or catastrophe, it was brought on by themselves, their Muslim and Arab brothers.
They didn't learn the lesson then, and came back again and again, 1956, 1967, 1973, 2006, 2014, Oct 7th and each time the lost and each time they lost more land.
Do you know what Muslim Arabs live in enclaves? Because they won't be good neighbors and live peaceful with the Jews.
Despite that, there are 2 million Arab citizens of Israel, they have the full rights of a citizen including the vote and have even served in the Knesset.
Now you tell me this. There are 57 Islamic ethnostates, many without any Jews, some with as little as 100 Jews, and none of them are welcome citizens with full rights and the vote, no Jew citizen of a Muslim state serves or has served in the government. Islamic governments aren't real democracies either. They are theocracies, where religion rules.
I heard the Foreign Minister of Malaysia on Christiane Amanpour and Co, he claimed that Malyasia was a democracy with human rights for all,but when Chrtiane asked him about LGBT, he obfuscated, see LGBT have no rights and are persecuted in Malaysia,and blamed it on the religion.
And I have just wasted 15 minutes typing this.
Plz sincere question- Gaza has FREE utilities- paid by Israelis, coastline property all around, universities, hospitals, ancient archives/landmarks, modern tech- so why have Palestinians not thrived as a vacation destination as Israel has? Egypt and Dubai have ( so do not blame oppressive religion or govt)
Why no nation changing profit in exporting unique produce or foods or services as Israel also has created?
You don't want me to blamean oppressive religion or gov't, but HAMAS is the governing authority in Gaza, and it is anything but liberal.
Dubai is zoned, within Muslim zones, Sharia prevails and women wear abaya's, and are not considered humans, not like men. In the money making zones, they have relaxed standards for westerners.
Not much different than Saudi Arabia. Saudi's consider the peninsula (Arabia) to be sacred Islamic ground, it is after all where Mecca, which is sacred to Muslims, and Medina, where Muhammad lived and died, and where he had 600 Jews of the tribe Banu Quaryza (tribe and banu are redundant, as Banu means tribe), beheaded 6 at a time.
The Saudi's quickly discovered that they needed western expertise, technology and resources to pump oil,, so they had to hire kufr (kaffir or infidels), but it was sacrilege to have kufr living on sacred Islamic soil.
The solution is to desacralize plots of l;ands, surround them with walls, and call them compounds, and let the kufr do what they want inside the compounds, which the Saudi's consider foreign territory.
On the other hand, HAMAS rules Gaza with an iron fist, they had one election, in 2006, and no election since. It doesn't even put on the pretense of a democracy, like Putin does.
Gaza is an occupied land kept in subjugation by Israel. Israel controls everything that goes in and out, and allowed only minimal food, water and medical even before Oct. 7. Poverty was extreme, people could not move about freely due to checkpoints everywhere, even fishing in the Mediterranean was severely restricted. Child beggars were in the streets. Palestinians' land was stolen and they were driven from their homes, often in the middle of the night. Israel imprisoned thousands , including children, without charges or trial. The ones that are tried are done in military courts where the conviction rate is over 99%. Gaza was considered the largest open air prison on earth. This is all before Oct. 7.
The nature of your comments reveals the fantasies American Jews have about Israel and its treatment of the Indigenous population, a testament to the success of the enormous Israeli propaganda machine.
One word. Corruption
Interesting history lesson Lee, although quite over the top in racism toward Arabs/Muslims which is never diplomatically helpful. Seems to me it's 2024 and the situation is completely out of control due to the continued slaughter by Israel - risking a much bigger conflagration in the Mideast.
Neither Arab or Muslim is a race. Arabs come in all shades and colors, from blue eyed, blond hair to black. Islam is a religion not a race,
And I hold a brief against Islam, the same I hold towards any religion,
I have studied Islam. Have you. Of course not. I have three versions of the Quran, one is the version that Thomas Jefferson have. I've read the hadiths, and the biography of Muhammad by ibn Ishaq which is more than even a Taliban has done. (The name Taliban means student)
It is a god awful inolerant, misogynistic and homophobic religion, and not at all pluralistic, not in it's own land under it's own leadership.
The disaster inGaza is the total responsiblity of HAMAS. And if HAMAS is not eliminated, they will come back for more and more, until all the Jews in Israel are obliterated, It says so in their covenant, and the leadership has said so on TV.
They are a nation of martyrs and martyrs are glorified not mourned,.
Again everything that is happening in Gaza is laid on the lap of the leadrship of HAMAS, it is a belligerent, anti human, religious organization that uses its own people as human shields.
Shame on you, for defending that which is indefensible.
You are exactly right
You wrote everything I would have written. In addition, 850,000 Jews who had lived in Arab countries for generations were forced to leave those Countries . Many settled in the new State of Israel.
“From the river to the sea” the phrase chanted by Palestinian supporters comes directly from the revised Hamas charter, meaning they claim all that land, thus completely
obliterating Israel. They will keep trying to do just that
Ruth, true although my numbers differ slightly. 900,000. They were put in tents. No country at the time would absorb them. When Israel was given their portion of the land that the partition granted them, they were absorbed into the country along with any Arabs that wished to become an Arab/Israeli citizen. That's why they currently represent 20% of Israel's population and are represented by Monsour Abbas in the Knesset, who was a member of the Muslim Brotherhood and graduated from Hebrew University. They have full citizenship and the right to vote. How many Jews live in Arab lands and are represented in their schools of higher learning or represented in their governments. Answer ZERO!
I appreciate your post.
Nice try Lee, Truth is like a poison for people like Lisa.
Hard to beat your reply, Lee.
What was the saying on that old black and white TV show Dragnet.
"The facts ma'am, just the facts"
No blinders, no wishful thinking.
This is the Jewish version of history. The Palestinian version is quite different.
How we were all outraged when Kelly Ann Conway talked about “alternative facts”. Omg! Here we are again…
Of course all sides have their own version. But mine is not the Jewish side, for I am not on the Jewish side.
But you are quite obviously on the Arab side.
By the way there never has been a nation called Palestine. The name described a Roman province that was once populated by Jews.
That's your version. There are others. Your vicious comment to me makes everything you say suspect, if it wasn't already.
I don't have a version. Zionists consider me an antisemite. I have no dog in this fight,and hold the Muslims and right wing Israelis in total disgust.
I know what I know, and I really don't take sides. I am an atheist, former Catholic, and hold all religions in suspicion and disgust.
And I don't adopt an identity based on superficialities or irrelevancies. As a matter of fact I am pretty fed up with humans, and find that my age and infirmities are a blessing.
I have more compassion for animals than I do people, and frankly it is my considered opinion that your "compassion" for the Gazans is not genuine, just a useful tool, to express your hatred of Jews.
I am prone to say that I am an equal opportunity hater, but that is a lie, Jews are not a threat to me, but Christians and Muslims, well they are. Christians immediately, Islam down the road, but both are intolerant, triumphalist, bigoted, exclusionary, misogynistic and homophobic screeds and I have absolutely no use for either. They won't let others live in peace and are malicious as a result.
Judaism on the other hand, well Israel has more human rights than even America, Israel, more diversity, more equal rights, but they have one problem, Netanyahu and the Israeli right, both are brethren of Trump and the MAGAts.
Lisa how about treaties? Do they count? The League of Nations, the Picot agreement, four major wars, 13 operations followed and were all won by Israel. This was all to hold on to the measly bit of land the size of New Jersey the Allied powers gave them in 1948. Should we give back America to the Indians? It's older than the League of Nations.
What America did to the Indians and the Blacks are ongoing atrocities along the same lines as murderous Iz/US has treated and continues to treat the people of Palestine.
And that justifies the killing of 30,000 Palestinians in Gaza?
First you accept the word of HAMAS as to numbers. Shame on you. You lack critical thinking skills,and.or are willingly gullible.
Second every dead Gazan is the responsibility of HAMAS. They brought this down on their own people, and worse they are using them as human shields, because they know full well, that there are suckers in the west who don't think, or can't think,and believe their lies and propaganda.
I've seen the videos, of HAMAS and the IDF, I know what destruction is being visited on Gaza and all of it is laid in the laps of HAMAS.
If they hadn't flown out of the strip on paragliders, boats, motorcycles and slaughter those babies and toddler, raped and murder women, elderly and disabled, and hauled back over 200 Jews as hostages, none of this would have happened.
Blame HAMAS for using i's own people and hostages as human shields.
The stupid assholes, like Sinwar underestimated the Jews, The Jews under public pressure released 1,000 terrorists for 1 IDF soldier, giving HAMAS the idea that if they multiplied it by 200 they could get the Jews to lay down like logs on the road.
I thought you were tired - please go to bed.
You show your true colors with this comment. You favor 20X retribution over justice as a proper responce. In engineering we call that positive feedback in a system. Positive feedback results in a system that latches up into one that is one-sided, depending on which side happens to be the strongest in the final battle. The tinyest incident can errupt into war in a system governed by positive feedback. Currently Israel has been had the strongest since the initial battle, and it has always settled the issue with positive feedback, meaning excessive retribution.
Human justice stipulates that all people should have equal opportunity. That only happens in a system where negative feedback governs the outcome of conflict. Negative feedback essentially works to de-escalate the conflict, and justice is the way. Justice means that all parties for the most part that the solution is fair to both sides. Minor incidents don't escalate when negative feedback is involved. That is why Jesus said turn the other cheek. Being able to say and do such a thing is why mere humans might say he was as a 'God'.
You know Ted. I could care less what you think. I really could.
I have said nothing about retribution, so don't put words in my mouth.
However all criminals should be caught, tried and punished.
Problem is that the criminals who slaughtered innocent Jews, are hiding behind their people and hostages, using them as human shields.
How about showing some umbrage and disgust for these animals and cowards.
What kind of animal uses his own as a human shield?
Revise your numbers please?
The Gaza Health Ministry lowered that number by quite a bit.
If you wish to quote Hamas numbers. By all means do so, that is your perogative.
But also Stand up and say as Hamas stated, that no rapes occurred on Oct 7th, No Decapitations Occured on Oct 7th , No babies were burnt in their cribs.....
Lee Markland, since you are so engaged in this discussion, would you please explain who is the HAMAS entity that the Israeli government with the approval of the US government and the world Jewish community, decided to obliterate. Assuming that innocently you, as the Israeli and US government, believe that you will be able to kill every HAMAS person, I would like to offer a different perspective. HAMAS is the idea of free Palestine, is the dream of every Palestinian of having their own country. Please look, for an instance, at this nefarious invasion from the Palestinian point of view; you will see that their dream is similar to the one that you imposed on them in 1948.
William Rosa. Your comment is a statement in the guise of a question. Quite transparent and thus unanswerable.
Regardless of your white washing of HAMAS, it is an unconscionable, murderous, bigoted organization populated by men of the same ilk.
HAMAS and Islamic jihad, slaughtered infants, children, the elderly, disabled and raped and murdered women.. up front and personal, then carted hostages back to Gaza on stolen vehicles and motorcycles.
The IDF has not. What has happened in Gaza is no diffrent than the allies carpet bombing of Germany and the dead Gazans are collateral damage, courtesy of the Cowardly HAMAS, who are using their people as human shields.
And these anti humans are those whom you defend and on whose side you stand.
Lee Markland,
The talking points that you use to, I guess, justify Israeli' actions against innocent and unarmed Palestinians have been used and abused by the US media as well as the silence of the Jewish community; thus, they are empty, hypocritical and above all dishonest. I'm not defending HAMAS, I'm speaking on behalf of the voiceless Palestinians. Since, according to you, the US media and your Israeli sources, HAMAS went into Israel killed and kidnapped 2000+ people, Israel have the right to invade the strip, kill over 30 thousand innocent people (about 15k children), destroyed their house and businesses and starved to death the rest of them, so Israel and it's people can maintain their standard of living which by the way its higher that in many US states. Is this scenario what you are trying to justify? I believe that finally, super late but better than never, the international community is beginning to realize the magnitude of the Jewaish state action.
It's not a matter of talking about the Israeli people that lost their lives; the question is why genocide people that where expel from their land, their hose and farm taken away and locked them in a prison like territory 100% controled by the Israel. What is your proposal for the Palestinian people after 80+ years of colonial occupation? What they should do satisfy the thirst of of domination, humiliation and oppression of the Israeli state? Was killing the Palestinian children a "collateral damage," as you call it, or a plan to annex whatever is left of their homeland? Please don't tell me that the Jewish people were there before, because I will have to remind you that the native Americans were here before you and me and I don't remember a single initiative coming from the Jewish community to return to them their land.
The Jewish people, just because of their experience with genocide, should be much more careful, responsible and above open to other people plight for dignity, peace, security, food and being able to raise their children in the sanctity of their home. I really would like you feel offended more than upset with historical facts that can't be modified by you or the Jewish nation.
William there is only one group responsble for all of the shit that is happening in Gaza,and that is HAMAS. Period.
If the cowards who hide behind their people and hostages had surrendered or captured, then nothing would have happened.
Blame the right parties, and condemn HAMAS for their cowardice and inhumanity. At least the IDF is not raping women, and murdering babies, infants, toddlers, the elderly and disabled as a matter of policy and up front and personal at that.
There is a difference between cold blooded murder and rape, and collateral damage. HAMAS is responsible for both, cold blooded murder and collateral damage.
For the hundredth time, what is happening in Gaza is not genocide, and you should know better, misuse of the word genocide does violence and robs it of all meaning.
There is no fucking way that Israel could genocide Arabs or Muslims, and the people who live in Gaza and the west bank are Arabs and part of the Ummah, the world wide community of Muslims, whose loyalty to their host countries is questioned, as they are first and foremost loyal to Islam.
And I don't believe in dual citizenship anyway, a person can not be loyal to two nations or religions, Imagine a Christian Muslim, mind you. Goes to Mosque on Friday, prays to Allah fivetimes a day and on Sunday goes to Mass and receives the Eucharist after confessing on Saturday and saying hail Mary's and Padre Nuestra's.
They were offered their own country at least twice: in 1948 and again with the Oslo accords. They turned both down. They dont want a country, they want the whole thing. I’m not making this up. Read the Hamas charter.
It was their land before 1948.They shouldn't have had to be effing "given" anything.
Lisa, who says so? Where are their deeds of ownership. The JNF holds theirs. There was no such country called Palestine, except in Biblical times and you probably know that. They were part of the Ottoman Empire. You are not supporting the Gazans with your alternative facts. You are just expressing your hatred for Zionists in particular and all Jews in general. Jews throughout the ages ever Since Paul of biblical times ., the first antisemite, began his new Christian religion, churches have preached their hatred of Jews. Pogroms in Europe and the Middle East were the result, culminating in the Holocaust. It's people like you that are responsible for making our Jewish youth attending schools of higher learning a living hell. Your ignorance is only exceeded by your Jew hatred!
It was actually not their land. Arab land owners owned their land. Most farmers were only tenant farmers. The Arab land owners sold land to the early Zionists, who paid for the land and therefore owned it. The tenant farmers could have purchased their land but the didn’t
William
Hamas is not the Idea of a Free Palestine. Its about the continuation of the work of the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem Al Husseini and Adolph Hitler, the co conspirators in their plan to eradicate the jews.
Also William, Lee imposed nothing, Unless of course your saying Lee is one of the Architects of the Balfour Declaration?
Lee - this link is from the nytimes magazine recently. i don't know enough about the history of palestine/israel and am trying to educate myself. i would value your opinion.
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/02/01/magazine/israel-founding-palestinian-conflict.html
It is my bed time, and I am tired, I looked at the site, and don't have much to say. Except this,with which I agree: In 1920, we speak about Jews and Arabs. It’s only in 1948 that the Arabs become Palestinians and the Jews become Israelis.
The Arab in the conversation tried to a contra argument, that the Arabs who lived in the Ottoman satrapy, had a Palestinian identity. I doubt that seriously, most if not all were settled Bedouins who had no national identity as there was no nation called Palestine, it is like saying that the pre revolutionary colonists of America considered themselves American.
They didn't they were British. Paul Revere didn't cry "The British are coming, because he and everyone else was British, he said "the Redcoats were coming, actually he never got to Concord - Lexington, he was stopped by a British patrol, and it was Samuel Prescott which actually made it to Concord
I can add to it,how the PM of Britain, Lord Balfour who was mired in the War, was approached by Lord Sykes and the Zionist Leadership that if he promised the Jews a homeland, then they would set world Jewry to support the war.
Up to that time, the Jews in America were opposed to the war, they were pacifist.
That is not mentioned in the wikipedia article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfour_Declaration
Water under the dam though, we can argue history back to the supposed Exodus, which I don't believe, that is another story.
I find I have to constantly bring up the Muslim Arab attack on Israel, because Arabs keep crying nagba, which is a catastrophe that they caused, just like HAMAS has caused this catastrophe.
There is one big difference between HAMAS and Islamic Jihad and the IDF, the slaughter of Jews by HAMAS and IJ, was up front and personal, they took pleasure, especially raping Jewish women.
What is happening in Gaza is collateral damage, not up front not personal, and the IDF are not raping Muslim women.
What is happening in Gaza is no different than the allies carpet bombing Germany in WWII.
Collateral damage happens in war. Was is hell, but it was brought on by the inhuman and animal acts of HAMAS and IJ., just as Hitler, Mussolini and Tojo brought hell on the Germans, Italians and Japanese.
No difference.
Lee - thank you for your thoughts. i do agree with Lisa that if the colonial mentality had been replaced by buying the Palestinian land, much of the conflict might have been avoided. that colonial mentality by right wing israelis in the west bank will perpetuate the conflict interminably. It just also occurred to me that if the Jewish leaders of that time had just for a second considered what they had just been through (the Holocaust), just the smallest amount of empathy for the Palestinians could have prevented all this carnage. On the other hand, trauma such as they experienced (and had experienced for 2000 years) affected all their perceptions, as trauma has been shown to do to the human brain. It's too much to ponder.
That is not what Lisa Said Paul, and you evidently haven't read my comment(s).
The Jews in the 1920's and 1930's did in fact buy the land, but the Arabs believe that the land is sacred to Muslims, and the Jews did what the Arabs haven't done in thousands of years, and make the desert bloom, they also cleaned up Jerusalem, which Mark Twain described as a garbage dump.
Embarrassed by the Jews and envious, 6 months after the UN declared Israel a state, the Arabs invaded with the intent of committing genocide, instead a handful of Jews whipped their asses.
And to secure their country, they did what all countries have done, including the United States, and that is take land, to expand their boundaries.
The Arabs, being religiously motivated, and thus insane, never learned their lesson and came back again and again, in 1967, 1967, 1973, 2006, 2014, and Oct 7th, each time trying to obliterate the Jews (genocide), each time they failed, each time Israel took more land to secure it's borders .
The problem Paul is the Muslim Arabs. despite the attempts of Arabs to commit genocide of the Jews. There are 2 million Arab citizens of Israel with voting rights and they have even served in the Knesset. Show me one Muslim country that has 1/6th of their population as Jews or even Christians. Most Muslim countries and there are 57 of them have no Jews, and if they do they number about 100. Egypt has three. Iran maybe 200, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan,Pakistan, Libya - none. Malaysia and Indonesia maybe 100.
I am a progressive, an atheist, and all religion's are hostile to me. And all religions on Earth are patriarchal and misogynistic, none more so than Islam.
LIsa - this link is from the nytimes magazine recently. i don't know enough about the history, and am trying to educate myself. i would value your opinion.
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/02/01/magazine/israel-founding-palestinian-conflict.html
Paul, thanks for the link. I think it is a very balanced discussion and history. My take is that it was a mistake to create a Jewish state in a place that already had the Palestinian people living their for centuries and cultivating the land. No one should be forced off their land, much less without compensation. (The exception might have been in part of Germany, but the horrors of the Holocaust would have made that too frightening for the survivors, I can only imagine.) If Jewish people were going to live in Palestine, it would have been much more appropriate if they had bought land and homes there and lived peacefully with their neighbors in one state with complete equality for everyone. The two state concept could possibly have worked if the land could have been fairly divided and if the original residents were willing to agree. Apparently in 1969 the PLO offered this solution, which to me was generous, but it was rejected by Israel. Israel has treated the Palestinians in the most cruel way, culminating in the current massacre and starvation, and the destruction of nearly all valuable structures, i.e. hospitals, universities, mosques, housing, schools. The thought that this trillion dollars worth of damage and the torture and murder of these people can just be rebuilt and the survivors live happily ever after as two states is absurd. I believe Israel's intention is to rid the area of Palestinians and take all the land and natural resources. And the US and the UK will continue to fund it.
Lisa, thanks for feedback. Buying the land from the Palestinians would have gone against all the "principles" of British colonialism. The Israelis continue this model in the West bank, perpetuating injustice which will only result in more violence in the short and long term.
Absolutely
Lisa H.
18 hrs ago
"Paul, thanks for the link. I think it is a very balanced discussion and history. My take is that it was a mistake to create a Jewish state in a place that already had the Palestinian people living there for centuries and cultivating the land."
Except the Jews who numbered 900,000 forcibly removed from their lands in the Middle East and forced to live in tents. If not for Israel becoming a state, these Jews would still be in tents. You leave that bit of history out of your comment to Paul. You also refuse to accept that in the late 1800's and early 1900's the Jewish National fund and other like org. bought thousands of acres of swamp and arid desert land rom Sheik's only too glad to get rid of it. These org. still hold the deeds to this land. You also ignore that Palestinians were not the only people that were part of the Ottoman Empire and were NOT the only people living in the Middle East!
This is Lisa H comment who you seem to accept without hesitation. Here's my reply.
"Paul, thanks for the link. I think it is a very balanced discussion and history. My take is that it was a mistake to create a Jewish state in a place that already had the Palestinian people living there for centuries and cultivating the land."
Except the Jews who numbered 900,000 forcibly removed from their lands in the Middle East and forced to live in tents. If not for Israel becoming a state, these Jews would still be in tents. You leave that bit of history out of your comment to Paul. You also refuse to accept that in the late 1800's and early 1900's the Jewish National fund and other like org. bought thousands of acres of swamp and arid desert land rom Sheik's only too glad to get rid of it. These org. still hold the deeds to this land. You also ignore that Palestinians were not the only people that were part of the Ottoman Empire and were NOT the only people living in the Middle East!
I don't subscribe.
But I favor peace over the ever elusive historically based "just" peace.
Your ignorance with regards to the history of this tragedy , is beyond the pale. Please refrain from comments with regards to theft or rape, these comments minimize the suffering that has ensued, to every one involved in the latest episode of this ongoing saga.
1) The Palestinians were offered a homeland in 1948, and multiple times after. 2) For the most part, they left British-occupied Palestine at the urging of Arab leaders in preparation for a war. 3) There has been a Jewish presence in "Palestine" for 3,000 years or more. 4) The U.N. created a Jewish state in '47- '48. No one came and colonized anything 5) Palestinians don't want a state UNLESS it means the elimination of the Jewish state. Be careful. Their ideology is an attack on Western values in general, not just on Israel, not just on Jews. The West in general. 6) The Palestinians and their terrorist leadership are responsible for their current predicament. Hamas wanted this famine, this destruction, this death because it's good for their PR. This is the truth.
Please, read Ilan Pappe book about the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians. You will understand exactly what happened. It is just not fair to throw accusations and try to justify the atrocities against Palestinians.
I think he/she, (as Robin can be either gender/sex), just meant that Palestine's LEADERSHIP desperately wants death and famine for their publicity . . . just like a certain morbidly obese dementia-case wants an economic crash in 'America! Facist tyrants do not care AT ALL about "their people."
They want POWER EXCLUSIVELY.
Anyone can write a book, about anything. The onus is on the reader to use critical thinking skills, and have some knowledge before jumping on a bandwagon.
If I read all of the books, that some body on substack wanted me to read,I wouldn't be able to do anything else, Rauid, Just bcause someone wrote a book, doesn't mean that their is truth in the book.
It amazes me how Israel is held to different standards. During WWII thousands of German Children died. If there was a ceasefire, the third Reich would have taken over the world.
Yes for some strange reason Israel is allowed to do things no other of our allies would do. They have become America’s spoiled child.
What does Israel do, besides fighting for survival, that other allies won't do.
Be careful Carol your bias shows clear.
I suppose if someone is antisemitic it could seem that way. Other allies didn’t have 6 million of their people slaughtered either. At least not that I’m aware of.
And whenever any civilians are killed especially children it is never right and it is immoral. The whole reason we have the ICJ and strict humanitarian rules is because of WW11. Have you looked at any of the images of a Palestinians in really time as these atrocities are committed for all the world to see. Have you seen the traumatized children desperately looking for their dead parents. Or mothers and fathers holding their dead babies. These people are innocent and defenseless and trapped.
And they have their own nuclear weapons they test in the South Atlantic ocean.
World War II was an actual war, with armies on both sides. Israel - Palestine is a David vs Goliath situation, with Israel having the 4th strongest army in the world, and Hamas numbering at most 25,000 resistance fighters using fairly primitive weapons.
Israel is making war on the civilian population not Hamas, as can be seen by the death toll. Starving a civilian population, bombing hospitals and denying medical care are all war crimes. Palestinian children are starving to death now, and will be followed by the elderly and everybody else if this doesn't stop soon. Thus the world wide revulsion against Israel. Anybody who thinks this is going to make Israel safer isn't thinking straight.
Nonthing amazes me about humans. Humans are hypocrisy, duplicity, gullibility, crocodile tears, competing with each other for the title of persecuted.
Double standards are us... It starts early in the family, with parent telling children not do what they do.
Then try reading just one.
Why,? Why do i need to defer to someone elses opinion, for that is all most of these books are, just elaborate justifications for someones opinion.
I am 85, have read thousands of books in my life, the only fiction were the classics like the Pathfinder, Les Miserable, a Tale of Two Cities and all of CharlesDickens works.
I've forgottenmore than you will ever learn, and I certainly don't need to spend the precious little time I have remaining on trying to digest some else's opinion.
I have my own opinions, well studied, and well informed thank you.
Here is the Amazon summary of the referenced book, Ilan Pappe's "The Ethnic Cleansing of the Palestinians":
"Between 1947 and 1949, over 400 Palestinian villages were deliberately destroyed, civilians were massacred and around a million men, women, and children were expelled from their homes at gunpoint.
Denied for almost six decades, had it happened today it could only have been called 'ethnic cleansing'. Decisively debunking the myth that the Palestinian population left of their own accord in the course of this war, Ilan Pappe offers impressive archival evidence to demonstrate that, from its very inception, a central plank in Israel’s founding ideology was the forcible removal of the indigenous population. Indispensable for anyone interested in the current crisis in the Middle East."
https://www.amazon.com/Ethnic-Cleansing-Palestine-Ilan-Pappe/dp/1851685553
The Palestinians were living on land they had lived on for literally thousands of years, as well. They were populating the land there, descendants of people who lived there for millennia, people who remained after Rome drove out the Jewish religion, including leaders and a great many but not all the people, back around 70CE.
That land was partitioned without the assent of Palestinian people who had lived there for generations and generations. The colonizers were THE BRITISH {after they took over from THE TURKS] , and they created that partition of the land because the rest of the world was NOT willing to accept a large influx of Jewish refugees from Europe whose lives had been upended and destroyed by decades of Pogroms and rampant anti-Semitism in the Holocaust. Jews were desperate for a safe place to be. They felt a connection to Palestine {the ancient Judea}, and had been relocating there for many years, living beside Palestinians whose families had been there since Roman times, as well.
But, the Euro-centric world was being racist with the partition, and Jews and Palestinians were both put behind the eight ball. THAT is the truth.
I thought there was a chance, some twenty or thirty years ago to work out two states that would be accepted by Jews and Palestinians, but allowing the settlements in the West Bank to become giant cities with private roads that Palestinians couldn’t even drive on, much less become residents of the “settlements,” well, that became a nearly insurmountable “facts on the ground” impediment.
It’s still going to be damned hard to resolve how to provide self-determination for Palestinians along with security and stability for the ongoing state of Israel, ending this monstrous bombing while also getting rid of the likes of HAMAS that deals nothing but more hatred and death into the mix. Finding common ground to build a modicum of trust to carry people through — that’s needed, but how to do it…
But, whatever the outcome, Netanyahu must be brought to STOP making everything there worse. He must stop the bombing and allow food and medical aid safely into Gaza.
Gross simplification with some truths, but you leave out so much. Blaming Israel from the "get go" is unfair as there had been much sympathy for the millions of Jews slaughtered by Hitler. Palestinians and Jews had already lived in the land, and there was plenty of unoccupied land. The land the UN gave for establishment of Israel was the worst--all desert. And before the actual establishment (one day before), Palestinians attacked the Israelis. And so it began...many if not all Palestinians have never wanted to recognize Israel, though Israel was only one of numerous countries created by world decree in aftermath of WWI/WWIi (Jordan for instance). Add to that the numerous times Israel was attacked (Gaza was occupied by Egypt originally) and then took in area from where the threat came (Gaza, West Bank).
Top that off with unwillingness of Muslims to share
Jerusalem (which acoording to UN was to be jointly administered), the spiritual capitol of both Jews, Christians, and Muslims (though for Muslims it is really second to Mecca) and you have recipe for resentment, hatred, and fight for more land. Blaming the current US administration for all of this is preposterous--Biden and co. are having to undo years of bad US policy (basically ALL of the years GOP administrations have been in charge).
Yes, Biden needs to reign in Netanyahu, but it is an uphill and treacherous climb, with many both foreign and domestic hoping for (and trying to sabotage) failure.
I actually don’t blame Israel “from the get go.” I recognize why it exists, though I have some issues with how the solution of a homeland for the Jewish people was handled, I wholly SUPPORT its continued existence. With a reasonable solution for the Palestinian people now, too.
One can look at history and trace a line to a lot of places to put “blame,” but people have suffered, and sufffered, and suffered, and I hope to see it stop.
I recognize there’s way too much energy put into sabotaging any decency.
I have heard the calls for Hamas finding their way to celebrate life instead of death. From both Israeli peace activists AND Palestinian peace activists.
The view has to be how to address all the people living between the river and the sea. There are so many hurting.
Hamas should be charged with War crimes. And should Netanyahu
I’ll second that
The Holocaust was absolutely horrific. Innocent Palestinian children had nothing to do with the Holocaust. We are focusing on what is going on now. Netanyahu has been crystal clear he wants to kill all Palestinians
If that were true, the 20,000 Arabs living in Israel would be dead.
😄
Yes, but in the aftermath of the Holocaust there was a desire for displaced Jews to return to their spiritual homeland (Palestine) rather than to the countries where they had been persecuted, imprisoned, and killed. That outcry was felt worldwide and led to the creation of Israel.
Do you know why the land was originally named “Palestine”? Jews were forced off of the land, and their artifacts were buried underground to make it look like they never lived there. To add further insult, the land was named Palestine after their enemies, the Philistines. If you go to Israel, you can see the uncovered earth covered in clear plastic to show the original Jewish settlement.
No, it wasn’t all desert. That was supposed to go to the Palestinians.
You must be reading a different map. Look at the original UN proposal--it included literally all of the unpopulated land, largely desert, and separated
in multiple places by Palestinian land, as well as being far from Jarusalem (although Jarusalem was to be administered by the UN initially.
Here:
https://www.un.org/unispal/history/#:~:text=The%20plan%20envisages%20the%20division,Lake%20Success)%2C%20New%20York.
Thank you. Speaking as an American Israei who knows the history and current events, this is one of the best summaries I've seen.
Israel is doing to the Palestinians what our government did to Native Americans by killing them and stealing their land. The American Holocaust.
Suppose you buy a house and are forced out as someone steals your home. While you are gone, someone else moves in. Whose house is it? This conflict is not as clear cut as what Americans did to Native Americans, but the two state solution appears to be the best answer.
The Palestinians descend from Jews who converted forst to Christianity and then to Islam.
A lot of them are exactly that, yes. Some descended from just people living there who continued to do so with whatever beliefs they might have had or developed … as well as people who migrated there, because that what humans do on this planet … we migrate.
{Well, we used to, anyway…}
People migrate...
My distant Y-DNA ancestry is Norse. The first records of my family appear in Switzerland in the 15th century. Then to the Duchy of Wurttemburg during the 30 Years' War (land-starved Switzerland exported mercenaries). Then to land-rich central Nebraska, where people know how to pronounce my name.
There were at least 3 major Jewish terrorist groups operating in Palestine in 1948 (Irgun, headed by Menachem Begin, was one of them), mainly removing Palestinians from their home so Jewish families could move in, along with fighting Palestinian resistance. It was in no way a peaceful takeover. Read "The Lemon Tree".
When I was an English teacher, I once had a Palestinian student who told me that
his grandfather had been a prosperous businessman in "the Palestinian Territory."
One day in 1948, his granfather answered the door to be confronted by Israeli soldiers who demanded that he collect his family, leave all his belongings, and leave his home. That day, the family moved to Jordan, then later came to the US.
And pre 1947
How many jewish settlements were razed? Completely.
It becomes he said she said, and the ever popular whataboutisim, we were here first, no we were , its our land , no its not, its ours. And so on and so on ad nauseum.
Think of Daffy Duck fighting with Donald Duck over the Genie Lamp.
If it wasn't so sad .......
cuz the UN "created a Jewish state" - how does that make it all right? what if the UN decided to create a whatever-state in your homeland? A "Jewish presence" for 3000 years makes a sudden influx of millions of Euro and US Jews shoving the native-born aside is okay? Hamas is evil. Does that make even greater body count by Israel okay? Palestinians were "offered a homeland" in their country? Wow.
Weren't the Jews there before Palestine? Jews were forced out of their homeland hundreds of years ago. Are the Jews not the indigenous people of that region?
2000 years ago.
I respectfully disagree with your dissertation on the above. #1) the offering to the Palestinian people gave them the worst and Israeli's the best so it was declined. #2) the Palestinians were told to leave the area to prevent being killed and they could return when Britan got things settled #3) there were Jews in the area of Palestine and they lived peacefully with Palestinians. #4) Land was taken from people that had thriving businesses, orchards and homes no matter who decided to take the land #5) Palestinians want their homes back.
Not everyone in the world follows a judeo Christian belief. My husband's father and Mother were those people that lost everything...they were refugees until they got their 1st citizenship here. Most of those in Israel now should not even be there if you follow Judea christianity..they are not Hebrew. The problem now is Netanyahu wants the oil that has been found in the sea near Gaza...how do think Americans would act if the roles were reversed?
I respectfully disagree: the Palestinians rejected all Jews on their land, the Palestinians did not live peacefully with the Jews, there were many programs and murders and the Jews were kicked out of every Arab state. That was ethnic cleansing. The Arabs that stayed are Israeli Arabs with full rights including voting and there are Israeli Arab doctors, lawyers and Supreme Court judges. The Jews want their homes back in the Arab lands. Where were the voices when they were kicked out? BTW, Israeli Arabs do not want to live in a Palestinian state. They are happy with where they are.
Thank you for showing us the impact to your family. Also news is about oil found off Gaza - that does give Netanyahu a huge reason to go after it. That also explains why he might have let Oct 7th happen- to get support to attack.
Exactly, Cathie.
Robin Alexander preposterously writes that "no one came and colonized anything." Have you not heard of the 1916 Sykes-Picot Agreement that divided the Middle East (including Palestine) between Great Britain and France?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sykes%E2%80%93Picot_Agreement
My mistake. I meant to say the Jews did not “colonize” anything. Yes of course. The actual colonization was done by powerful western entities, the ottomans , and if you go back far enough the Muslim Caliphate.
Bravo Robin Someone else has the guts to speak truth .
Read the detailed history. israel’s original idea for a Palestinian homeland was to grant the Palestinians worthless desert land.
The Palestinians are the descendants of Jews who embraced first Christianity and then Islam as foreign empires imposed their religion.
My peace plan for the Middle East is on this post:
https://robertreich.substack.com/p/biden-must-take-the-lead-on-israel/comment/50867410
This is not the truth
They need to release the hostages.
Especially the 4 million Palestinian hostages Israel has held since 1948.
There would be no problem had not the Arabs tried to obliterate (genocide) the Jews in 1948, not having learned a lesson, they kept coming back again and again, like the insane religious nuts that they are, 1956, 1967,1973, 2006, 2014, Oct 7th, they get their asses handed to them each time,. each time they lose territory, they never learn.
That is because Islam is a nation of Martyrs, and martyrs are glorified, not mourned, and HAMAS said it a month ago, they will never stop, they will keep coming back and send martyrs to paradise (but never, ever the leaders).
Perfectly explained.
Thanks Robin, considering that hard core Zionists consider me an anti semite
There were less that half that living in the region in 1948. There are two million Levantine, Muslim Arab-speakers living as citizens of Israel now. Where is your logic and math. (Please show all work!)
If you put fish in a fish tank, the population will limit themselves to the size of the fish tank, but humans, or at least some sexually obsessed cultures will not, they just breed and breed until the space can no longer support them, they the dam breaks.
I live on an island of some 55 square miles, the deer here have no natural predators, without predators they become pests, but also the deer population is so large that they became sick and diseased.
When the deer population becomes so large that it is a hazard to itself, the county give out hunting permits, and even pay landowners $1.000 to permit hunters on their land to cull the herd.
It sounds horrible. It got me, because I had a family that munched on my lawn, and one doe we called apple, because she would take an apple from us.
The emotional me objected, and I will not allow hunting on my property, but the rational mind knows that the curd has to be culled for the safety of the entire population, because a diseased buck can wipe out an entire population.
The problem is the synergy between biology and hormones and religious imperatives to go forth and breed, thus to overpower the world through numbers.
What can't be achieved via the sword or politics can be achieved by fecundity.
I point doubters to the Cult of Rome,which bans abortion and contraception.
Such bans are not necessary in a cult where access and familiarity with women is restricted and prohibited, and thus there is an overload of testosterone and semen when the dam breaks......... marriage and/or rape
They can go elsewhere.
Please elaborate on 4 million hostages. What do you mean?
Yes
When and if all the hostages are released Israel will go nuclear! The devastation we see now will be inconsequential to what it will be after their release.
You are out of your mind. Israel will go nuclear when they are at an existential precipice, but releasing the hostages doesn't fill the bill.
Doubt that very much.
Israel can’t go nuclear on Gaza or the West Bank without risking their own exposure to nuclear effects.
I think he was using "nuclear" metaphorically. Whatever - the devastation is and will be ... one more huge stain on human history
Les is proof that not all knives in the RR drawer are sharp.
Let’s not forget who started this war. It was Hummas! They brutally killed innocent children and raped and mutilated women. Now they are hiding and using the Palestinians as human shields. They don’t care anything about the Palestinians people. They only care about wiping out Israel.
Tell it to Hamas. They could have peace if they wanted it by releasing the hostages.
Yes, releasing the remaining hostages and announcing a full and unconditional surrender. I do wonder why the elected government of Gaza, Hamas, is not providing food and medical supplies to help their own people.
Hamas does not care about their own people. They were given concrete to build shelter for Palestinians. Instead they built tunnels to attack Israelis. They knew exactly what would come from their October 7 attack on Israel, too, and they are hoping for more Palestinian deaths to win the propaganda war. They have stolen supplies from the people, shot missiles from civilian areas, and repeatedly use the Palestinians as human shields. There is no love or concern for the people. Their only wish is to kill Jews. That is the harsh fact of who Hamas is!
Yes, Humas started this war and all they care about is the genocide of the Jewish people. They will stop at nothing until this is accomplished which is why they must be destroyed.
Agreed.
Wow there’s some serious cognitive dissonance on this thread. Repeating the lies doesn’t make them true. Only to the indoctrinated.
Darn - I came across a great meme, but I can't find it right now; something about how when your aid is being distributed by terrorists, they are often too busy to do the job. Sadly true.
Listen the fact is, these people aren't stupid. If they wanted to create a decent life for their people they could have. Their ideology is not about that. Period end of story.
Sad, but given my current understanding of Hamas, I believe that assessment is correct. Since Israel has apparently agreed to the terms of the currently proposed ceasefire, we’ll see if Hamas also will agree.
No Joyce,
Long past that point, most of the hostages are probably dead.
Iran acheived its goal through Hamas, meaning Hamas scuttled the the Saudi/ Israel deal. The long term goal of the destruction of Israel is the Ultimate Goal, and to kill every jew, and Infidels worldwide.
Hamas refused to release data concerning who is alive. I hope and pray you are wrong about the hostages, but have a sick feeling you are right.
Agreed now stop shooting rockets from Gaza and Lebanon and now Iran, into Israel : Deal?
and add no more bombs, weapons and money for war on Gaza, Yemen and of course Ukraine.
“Prompting Israeli soldiers to fire at the crowd”… are you serious Robert? Have you not seen the faces of the starved that are coming out of all of Gaza but esp the northern area? If you haven’t, I suggest you start looking a little harder. ISRAEL IS CREATING THIS CHAOS AND FAMINE
The quote about the IDF shooting into the crowd is simply reporting of the event as far as I can tell. There is no advocation in the phrasing for what they did. If you read it in context of the entire piece, Reich is clearly advocating for a further change in the Biden Administration's policy, which is a good thing. And don't forget that two things can be true: the U. S. supports the right of Israel to exist and to try to liberate the hostages and root out Hamas leadership; and the US does not support the genocide of innocent civilians nor the horrific conditions due to IDF presence. The US must also push for a 2-state solution and retreat of illegal settlements in the West Bank.
Also, understand that politically, the situation puts Biden in a difficult position. If he comes across as anti-Israeli, he threatens losing the historical Jewish-America vote. From all appearances there has been a tremendous flurry of work behind the scenes to push back against Netanyahu. But Netanyahu, who is undoubtedly a Trump supporter, could choose to do everything in his power to hurt Biden and help Trump's reelection bid. Without a Democrat in the WH our foreign policy would be in a shambles.
💯, the whole debacle is based on a false flag Hamas terrorist event they knowingly allowed to happen. Likud are Zionist globalist lunatics, the majority of Israelis do not support them, but Uncle Joe knows better 👌. The same uncle Joe encouraged and presided over the influx of 10 million economic migrants since the start of his tenure, and thats only through the southern border 👍
A false flag event? Have you not seen the videos that the perpetrators released? Hamas =Isis and by the time that is realized it will be too late.
The event was allowed to happen. Israeli intelligence is the most sophisticated in the world, if a camel farted near the border they would know about it, however when a raggle tag bunch of deranged idiots come over it takes them 7 HOURS to react. Huge anti Lecud marches prior to the incident. Polls had 90% of the population against them!
Oh, right, like when we had chatter about 9/11…and when Clinton was told that Bin Ladin was dangerous…and the Yom Kippur war in 1973, when the Arabs would never attack on a Jewish holiday. I am not saying that I like Netanyahu, I am saying that Israel is not evil, Israel was attacked within its own borders, and Hamas NEEDS TO GIVE BACK THE HOSTAGES!
I know about the demonstrations and the polls. I have lived in Israel and have friends and family there who keep us updated on the demonstrations.
Israel has the best intelligence in the world. Do you think they would leave a section of their wall unguarded? They did.
Well Vincent, what’s your source for this info? You seem to be saying Netanyahu knew a terrorist attack against Israelis was imminent but he “knowingly allowed it to happen.” How do you know he knew?
If by “ Uncle Joe” you mean President Biden, and you believe Biden, “presided over the influx of 10 million economic migrants since the start of his tenure, and that’s only through the southern border.”
What’s your source for that information? It’s easy to say such things when you don’t bother to find out all of the facts.
For years, Republicans have been calling for more money and officers to secure our southern border, but, for example, last May during budget negotiations their debt ceiling bill did the exact opposite—it cut CBP’s budget by $4 billion, resulting in the loss of 2,400 officers. Cuts would also mean over $640 million in border security technology would no longer be operational. This loss of resources due to republicans themselves had serious consequences for the Border security and their capacity to process immigrants and to stop fentanyl and illicit drug trafficking. So, in spite of Republican claims we have a border crisis, it’s very obvious their intent has always been to make the “crisis” worse and blame Biden for it.
Here are some examples of facts: Ever since Joe Biden took office in 2021, congressional Republicans have hammered him with claims of a border crisis and have repeatedly lied by saying Democrats want open borders. But, as they continue to demand more border security, most of the same GOP law makers are also pushing a bill that could slash border funding by 22%.” (The American Independent, 5/25/23, by Josh Israel)
The facts are that Republicans have repeatedly voted against border security funding during both the Obama & Biden administrations. So the next time a Republican Congressman cries “open borders,” ask them why they voted to defund border security. (Third Way.org, 5/3/23, K.Murdock)
Just a few weeks ago, and after months of negotiations, a bipartisan bill was drafted giving
republicans almost everything they asked for
in an immigration and border security bill. But
guess what? Republicans voted against it because
Trump didn’t want to give President Biden the “win.”
Trump told House republicans to vote against the
bill so he could use the border issues against Biden while campaigning.
What that tells us is republicans manufactured the
“border crisis.” You have to wonder what else they
manufactured, just so they could discredit Biden.
Let’s see, there’s the several years-long republican harassment of President Biden’s son Hunter. It was based on information on a laptop hard drive that was so extensively tampered with by republican geniuses
that it couldn’t be used as evidence of anything but
republican tampering.
Then there’s the ridiculous impeachment of Sec.
Mayorkas that was devoid of credible evidence of wrongdoing. Ditto for their sham attempt to impeach
President Biden. It turns out the GOP’s alleged evidence was based on a raft of lies told by a longtime FBI informant with ties to Russian oligarchs. We now know the lies were part of a disinformation scheme directly from the Kremlin
that was intended to hurt Biden’s candidacy.
It’s all been a tremendous waste of time, energy and
money.
Regarding the Hunter Biden laptop, the contents are freely available online and documents, tens of thousands of images. I would say go research those and make your own informed decision. I think you will be surprised to say the least.
All the best to you from Ireland 🇮🇪
Hi Susan,
I appreciate the extensive reply. And I don’t disagree completely.
To your first point re influx of illegal immigration here is one article, there are many , the data was collected last week I believe https://www.thecentersquare.com/national/article_9d841124-7449-11ee-af4a-af115ad29337.html
I made no comment on the influx of illegal immigrants. My point was that republicans
blame President Biden & carry on about “open borders” then consistently vote against funding border security. Since that is factual information
it’s hypocritical for republicans to continue to
blame Biden for a problem they created. The U.S.
hasn’t had “open borders” since the 1920s.
(Cato. org, 9/23/21, by David Bier)
“By using the term "open border," conservatives — including Rep. Jim Jordan, R-Ohio, who is seeking the role of House speaker — are suggesting that anyone can get into the U.S. without much hassle. But the reality is that the southern border is more fortified than it's ever been.” (Axios. com, 10/17/23,
by Russell Contreras)
I know nothing about whether borders are “open”
in other countries.
As far as Hunter Biden’s laptop is concerned, any
documents allegedly found on it are useless for
the purpose of proving Hunter Biden had anything
to do with them. The reason is because the laws of evidence require that any object or paper intended to be used as evidence in a court of law must have a documented chain of custody, meaning from the moment someone picked the laptop up from the computer repair shop, that person and every other person who handled it personally signed their name along with the date & time they had it so each of
them can be put under oath and questioned about what was done with it when it was in their possession. In this particular case no chain of custody was established and it was obvious to
some who inspected it, the hard drive had been extensively tampered with.
If there’s no chain of custody and there’s evidence the hard drive was tampered with, it means anyone could have loaded false documents on it. Therefore the documents can’t be legally tied to Hunter Biden no matter what info they contain.
Regarding the Hamas attack knowingly allowed to happen, there are countless x-IDF members on interview who worked on the border stating it is impossible that the most highly armed and guarded border was breached so easily in such a manner and there was no response for 7 hours. There are many intelligence experts on the record stating same.
Regarding your narrative around the southern border, I would not argue with it. Open borders is a globalist policy, we are seeing it everywhere in Europe as is not in the US. Across Europe all parties left and right have bought into the ideology, its the same in the states
Your mentally ill, with the disease of Antisemitism, Zionist Globalists? Really and next your going to say that Donald Trump was the greatest president ever.
Are you a refugee from QAnon Vincent. False flag event.. indeed.
Now I am positive that Netanyahu knew something was coming, but not what,when and to what extent, but false flag?
Please take your crystal ball in for service.
What a childish snide remark. 9th grade are you.?
Is that the best you can do?
I am not playing a game, sonny. Try Lincoln Logs, or Fish.
Hamas created it.
Hamas was always regarded as an ASSET by the right-wing/fascists in Likud.
In August 2019, former prime minister Ehud Barak told Israeli Army Radio that Netanyahu's "strategy is to keep Hamas alive and kicking … even at the price of abandoning the citizens [of the south] … in order to weaken the Palestinian Authority in Ramallah." And there you have it.
Well Thomas, you said:
Hamas was always regarded as an ASSET by the right-wing/fascists in Likud.
That is an extraordinary claim and requires extraordinary proof.
Do you have any. Are you privy to discussions that we aren't?
Is it really Biden's place or is it everyone's.
I don't care about and have no vested interest in Gaza, the West bank or Israel.
What is going on there is a religious war, and everyone seems to be blithely ignorant of the at fact, or afraid to mention it, and I have no time for religions, I think that they are stupid and believers are childish, but that is me.
This conflict is a birthday gift to Putin, it is a bright shiny object thrown in front of the witless and feckless crows in the west, a distraction to take our attention off Ukraine while he gathers his forces to commit real genocide and obliterate a nation, it's culture, its language and its people, the Baltic States and Moldova are next, and here we are kevetching about a perpetual war between two religions.
And yes it is in fact a religious war, because all over the world, especially in Wayne Co., MI Muslims are standing up for their religious brethern against the Jews.
Not even Jewish Americans could save German Jews from the holocaust, they even turned back a boat of refugees, from Hamburg, the liner St Louis.https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/voyage-of-the-st-louis#:~:text=In%20May%201939%2C%20the%20German,allow%20the%20ship%20to%20land.
The actions of the Ummah (community of Muslims) in voting uncommitted in Wayne Co. MI and the fact that not even half are Palestinian in origin, is proof that this is a religious war; their identity IS THEIR RELIGION. Unlikr Jews, Robert Reich and many secular Jews are anti Zionist and even pro Palestinian, because they are unware that the conflict is really a religious war, as old as the religio of Islam.
The Quran and hiddiths, make allowances for people it calls "Peoples of the Book" (actually peoples of the scroll,but book will do. The book is the Bible, the people are Christians and Jews.
They are permitted to live under Islamic rule, so long as the pay the jizzyah (poll or head tax) and submit to a second class status as dhimmi's.
Lee, you are an observant and smart man. Regretfully, RR's blog is full of cretins far worse than trumptiles because while the latter have some, albeit repugnant to civilized people principles, the lefty radicals have none, and no solutions either. They somehow have an urge to pity someone, apparently to elevate their own self respect, as well as an overpowering need to be against, just against.
Mind you that if their shenanigans bring us Trump, they would be nowhere near fighting, just crawl in their holes and sit quietly, maybe even support the new regime - lack of principles.
Muslims? They are no friends.
Well said.
For years I considered myself a leftie, a progressive, that is until Putin invaded Ukraine,and then I witnessed the extreme left come out, albeit obliquely, for Putin, by being against any intervention or help to Ukraine, in fact on the Thom Hartmann substack there are some Putin leftists, who attack Biden and America calling us imperialistic, and completely ignoring the imperialism of Putin and Russia.
And they are joined by witless, feckless, lemmings on the left. I thought that only those types were on the right. I thought that only right wing fascists, joined lockstep in causes and ideology, boy Ukraine and HAMAS have been a rude awakening. All I see on the left these days are malleable minds, and conformist sheep.
It seems that if one adopts an identity, then one proceeds to adopt any and all causes associated with that identity.
Not me, I consider everything like a pie or pizza. I can take a slice here and there, but not eat the whole damn thing, doing so gives one heartburn and indigestion.
Lee--The entire thing has been and always will be religious in nature. That part of the world, as it stands today, has no solution to a problem that apparently doesn't want to be answered..
Religion is suppose to be the source of peace., prosperity and tranquility, but it proves just the opposite in the history of the world.
Lee- When religion is used as an excuse to kill it loses its God like appeal.
Religion looses its appeal, before that. It is a psychological tool, used to control men by controlling their minds, It is and has been used to justify everything from eliminating enemies via human sacrifice, to slavery, to misogynistic domination of women, to the rule of Kings.
Those who believe are word controlled humans, willingly led by shepherds who use the thing called god as a sock puppet.
The purpose of a shepherd is to tend the flock, till it is time for the fleecing and slaughter.
Really? Oct 7th is according to you an Israeli operation.
Started on the Grassy Knoll - didn't you know?;-)
The US needs to quit vetoing ceasefires at the UN. I am ashamed of my country! If Palestine was doing this to Israel, there wouldn't be a veto. This white supremacy crap needs to end. I also want to know why every American that is publicly against this genocide is losing their jobs or getting censured in Congress while the members of Congress that say all Palestinians should be slaughtered aren't censured.
I read a white paper describing how well-funded pro-Israel groups in this country have, for decades, intensively lobbied to have Palestinians equated with terrorists. They have been very successful in obtaining anti-terrorist legislation toward this end. For example, the Oklahoma City bombing, which was committed by white domestic terrorists, was used as an excuse to enact legislation against foreign (read Palestinian) terrorists. Here is the link to the website: https://ccrjustice.org/anti-palestinian-core-origins-and-growing-dangers-us-antiterrorism-law
The Oct 7th attack was not terrorism? Hijacking and blowing up airliners, not terrorism? Tens of thousands of artillery rockets not terrorism?
She said NOTHING about those events as “not terrorism.” Your counter argument is dishonest. Palestinians are of course ANGRY about decades of injustice and subjugation, and some do believe that a fierce reaction is appropriate (which of course would be seen as “terrorism” by those receiving the reaction), but, even under these conditions, many Palestinians just want a just resolution, and do not support terrorism. Your response is willful blindness to that. To you, everyone who stands in Israel’s way is a terrorist, full stop. Even the little babies are terrorists. Am I being unfair to you now? How does that feel?
The acts organized and carried out by the PLO - - representing ‘Palestinians’ in the UN going back decades. Were these acts of terrorism - you seem unsure?
“ every American that is publicly against this genocide is losing their jobs” ? Can you name some please? Also who in Congress has said that All Palestinians should be slaughtered?
A congressman named Andy Ogles.
I agree, not an acceptable sentiment at all, but that’s only 1 individual.
Exactly!
Reference?
He is the worst! He wouldn’t even be a Congressman if Tennessee hadn’t divided Democratic Nashville into three districts.
Who lost their jobs?
Actors and agents: Susan Sarandon, Maha Dakhil, Bella Hadid, Mia Khalifa. Students graduating college were having offer letters withdrawn. This article was in the Chicago Tribune. Rashid Tlaib was censured in the House of Reps for calling it genocide. Just google for more names and examples. AIPAC is pouring money into primaries to get rid of politicians asking for a ceasefire.
Okay, did not know about the actors / agents. That's why I asked. As far as students graduating, it's an employer's right not to hire someone for any reason whatsoever. Rashid Tlaib was rightly censured especially because 1) it isn't genocide (the Palestinian population has greatly increased over the years; how can it be genocide? 2) It's just her way of being anti-semitic as she has nothing of substance to say.
BS
Agree.
Read the papers. Even the NYT knows it’s true.
What is happening is not a genocide. Americans are willfully ignorant of so many things, throw a phrase and they jump on it, like hungry crows.
There is no chance at all, that Israel can, ,,much less attempt to obliterate Arabs or Muslims. If the Jews were of genocidal mind, they would start with the 2 million Arabs that live within the borders of Israel, and have voting rights, some have even served in the Knesset.
Now show me one Muslim, much less an Arab, land that can say the same about Jews.
Correct, genocide is what Hitler did to the Jews. He Systematically setup death camps with the intention of killing all the Jews of Europe.
Israel is defending itself from an evil terrorist group to protect its people. I would not call this genocide. This word is being used in the wrong context here.
I totally agree,and it irks me that self indulgent, brainwashed and ignorant people accuse Israel of Genocide, they have been sucked into Islamic terrorist propaganda. None of this "advocates" would last a day in an Islamic society.
If I understand correctly, every Arab country threw out their Jews in 1948 -- and kept their assets by the way. So when the Palestinians cry about their right of return and all they lost, well it's a little one-sided isn't it?
Exact;ly. The problem is lack of history, ignorance and that thousands year old bete noir, Jew hatred.
The problem is that westerners, especially Americans, are too easily propagandized, I think the problem is they are lazy, and let others tell them what to do, believe. Critical thinking is hard work, and means being skeptical of all claims, taking time to read. And we know that critical thinking is a deficit on the right, but it also appears to be a deficit on the left.
And then there is the bandwagon problem. The propensity for people, those lacking the ability to think for themselves, jumping on the bandwagon because it is the "thing" and well, everyone else is doing, especially the peers, the sheep, with whom they wish to ingratiate themselves.
BS
That's not an argument.
Just because they haven't killed all of them yet doesn't mean it's not a genocide. Give them time.
I'll say what has been said over and over again -- because it's true. If Israel wanted them dead, they'd be dead a long time ago. You do not understand who you're dealing with. The fact is, we are NOT a people who by nature enjoys killing, but if Palestinians require that we fight back and fight back hard, we will. I will also state that the civilian casualty rate is by far the lowest in the history of warfare, despite the insane circumstances -- far below what is considered acceptable (or should I say proportionate).
One more thing. Let's be accurate and not throw around words because it sounds progressive/woke/cool. Genocide means the "deliberate and systematic destruction of a group" (Britannica). There is no intention on Israel's part. There never has been. Every war, every altercation has been started by one or more of the Arab countries, some of whom -- I am thrilled to say -- have decided to create diplomatic relations with Israel. And not one of which, interestingly enough, wants to take in the Palestinians and re-settle them.
Because you say so? Laughing out loud.
https://theintercept.com/2024/03/03/israel-our-palestine-question-zionism-american-jews/
Until Putin invaded Ukraine, I was a financial supporter of the Intercept. But no longer, they and Democracy Now are nothing more than old line Marxists of the Tankie variety https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tankie
I have absolutely no use for the Intercept. I once thought Jeremy Scahill was some kind of hero, I no longer do.
I still get their newletter, but don't even read it. I have no respect for them anymore, it disappeared when they took the side of Putin., not directly but obliquely.
Just because they haven't killed all of them yet doesn't mean it's not a genocide. Give them time.
You are quite the Jew hating bigot, aren't you.
Transparent as hell.
A ceasefire means that HAMAS has won the war, it means that they now have time, to rebuild, reform, reorganize and attack again at a later date, knowing full well that the Jews can't defend, because the world is full of people like you Stephanie.
Image a band of brigands roaming through your neighborhood, killing friends and families and then dragging hostages back to their neighborhood, and daring anyone to do anything about it, because they are using their own people and hostages as human shields.
What is going on between Gaza and Israel has nothing to do with white supremacy and more do with Islamic supremacy.. Jews and Arabs are both of mixed race. White Arabs and White Jews, black Arabs and black Jews. Neither Arab or Jew is a race.
This is my last RR read. He's an old - by his own admission, hysterical psychopath who's suffering from nothing to do.
Stephanie, were you aware that the US has an ongoing resolution for a temporary ceasefire? To ask for a permanent ceasefire while Hamas still has 100 hostages doesn't make sense. Hamas could end this TODAY if they would give up the hostages and surrender themselves.
It's all words. I won't believe it until I see it. It is political theater. Isreal has been holding Palestinians hostage for years on administrative hold. This is imprisonment without charges. Also, the final hostage exchange was stopped by Bibi, not Hamas. Bibi doesn't want Palestinians to live without oppression. Here is the article: https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/gaza-mediators-search-final-formula-israel-hamas-ceasefire-2024-02-07/#:~:text=DOHA%2FTEL%20AVIV%2C%20Feb%207,for%20negotiation%20toward%20an%20agreement. Right now on the Isreal list of banned items going into Gaza lists anesthesia and maternity kits. While I don't agree with everything in this CNN article, it does list these banned items. https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/gaza-mediators-search-final-formula-israel-hamas-ceasefire-2024-02-07/#:~:text=DOHA%2FTEL%20AVIV%2C%20Feb%207,for%20negotiation%20toward%20an%20agreement.
Well the "deal" you speak of was reported February 7, which Netanyahu rejected, not the US., though the "devil is in the details". So the US is still pressing (just last week) for at least a temporary ceasefire despite Israel's rejection of the Hamas offer. Please enlighten us as to how Biden/US can force a sovereign nation who was attacked to leave the country which attacked them?
Here is an article from the Jewish Voice for Peace detailing the year leading up to the festival attack. While I don't condone what was done by Hamas, how long can you torture a country before they fight back? https://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/2023/11/24/countdown-to-genocide/. I mourn every loss of life be it Isreali or Palestinian.
That’s the thing. People need to go back way before Oct. 7. Look to 1948. Palestinians were driven out of the villages that they lived in for generations and reaching back thousands of years. Since then those that remained have been murdered, subjugated and treated badly. They had homes and lands stolen. Israel controlled the airspace, imports/exports and. Israel built walls and checkpoints and has imprisoned Palestinians without charge for years. Bombings have occurred on a regular basis for decades. So if people wonder why Hamas and other groups engage in armed resistance? Decades of oppression and the fact that nonviolent protests don’t work (Israel shot at protesters in 2018 for doing that). Think about how this would feel.
It is also helpful to consider non state actors are not all the same. Hamas is Palestinian resistance and tends to limit itself to Palestine (Gaza). ISIL is not there and has different goals.
The article you reference is decidedly one-sided and leaves out numerous details that are "inconvenient". A simple reading of the establishment of Israel on Wikipedia will fill in those gaps. Yes, I mourn both sides, and Netanyahu is a bad leader who needs to go. But the tit for tat and bad faith has been going on since the beginning, and as others have stated here, Palestinians have rejected more than one opportunity towards a peaceful solution and a second state. Passing the blame to a US administration which is trying to undo the horrific "anything goes" policy of Trump years isn't easy, and like it or not, Israel is the only democracy and ally in a volatile region.
How indeed? I only hope that this is all lip service on Biden's part in order to keep on the good side of the Arab / Muslim population, especially in Michigan. Although, Trump is far more anti-Muslim so honestly I can't see them voting for Trump in the general.
By cutting off ALL funds and weapons, obviously.
I agree completely about the U.S. vetoes of U.N. ceasefire resolutions, Stephanie. How can Biden possibly justify doing that? Outrageous!
How can the UN justify the genocide of Jews, which is exactly what is going on and has been since 1948, and more poignantly it is a religious war of Islam against the Jew.
It started in Medina when Muhammad had all 600 members of the Jewish Tribe of Banu Quaryza beheaded and is sanctified in the holy haddith of al Bukhari. Which reads:
"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem)."
Let me translate, the day of judgment is the end times, when all the world is Muslim.
Genocide of any kind is an abomination. But now, right NOW, thousands of innocent civilians are being killed in Gaza. Regardless what happened two millennia ago, or two decades ago, this slaughter is wrong.
Would you excuse it if, tomorrow, a Native American tribe murdered all the residents of a small town adjacent to a reservation because the tribe's ancestors were killed by Americans 300 years ago?
Well Denise,blame HAMAS who uses its citizens as human shields. The cowards they could stop it any day, but surrendering and being tried for crimes against humanity . They don't have to surrender to the Jews, they can surrender to the UN.
Hamas was the proximate cause of this war, absolutely. But Israel’s slaughter of tens of thousands of civilians is not the answer. Suppose Hamas representatives surrendered. What are the chances that Israel would accept that? I wouldn't be surprised if the killing continued, because Israel would say it had to root out every single Hamas member. And then there's the question of violent seizure of Palestinian property in the West Bank by "settlers." Not to mention that Netanyahu has unequivocally ruled out a two-state solution. Neither side is blameless, but innocent women, children, and helpless people in hospitals shouldn't have to pay the price for leaders' viciousness, religious fanaticism, and stupidity.
Israel is not slaughtering Gazans on purpose, anymore than the allies slaughtered Germans and Japanese.
HAMAS is an existential threat to Israel, and they are hiding behind the civilian population,using them as human shields, to get the worlds sympathy (like you for example)
There is a solution, HAMAS the cowards, surrender to the UN for trial of crimes against Humanity, fat chance that will happen, so the only way that Israel can get to those that pose and existential threat is through the defenses, which in this case are the humans that HAMAS uses as shields.
HAMAS are cowards, the leadership brags that they are a nation of martyrs, but not the leadership only the idiots that they recruit and hide behind.
I think some who expressed almost orgasmic joy when learning of the Oct 7th pogrom lost their jobs in some cases. [Was that your reaction too? Asking for a friend.]
I don't think I have seen anyone react with orgasmic joy. As I said, I mourn every loss of life, so no, I didn't react to it with orgasmic joy. Do you have an example you can show me of someone reacting with orgasmic joy?
Here is one:
https://nypost.com/2023/10/25/news/cornell-prof-who-found-hamas-attack-exhilarating-now-on-leave-of-absence/
I had not seen that one. That is horrible. I don't think anyone should be exhilarated by someone's death.
BS
This whole thing ⬆️ I want to know too 🎯
In the Israeli newspaper Haaretz Biden's plan is extolled as the only sensible one (indeed really the only one at all), while Netanyahu is understood to just be in it for himself. What your friend Mr. Avishai has written is exactly in sync with what they are saying. Let's get it through to our politicians. The world has a slim "window of opportunity" for real progress there.
Yes, let’s all buy into Israeli propaganda and reward their attempt at a genocide with whatever plan they are pushing. It is not just Netanyahu that is the problem. Israel is a colonizing apartheid state that has abused Palestinians since the beginning. There are protesters from Israel BLOCKING AID TRUCKS. There are Israelis sneaking into Gaza to start building settlements. Israel is a monster and should no longer exist
The United States enslaved black people for a hundred years and committed genocide against numerous Native American tribes in the 19th century in a purely colonial context. Do you think the United States is a monster that should no longer exist? Why not?
Jews are indigenous to Israel and the Middle East in general and have just as much a right to be there as Arabs, who colonized what is now the land of Israel between 632 AD-700AD. The first slaughter of innocent Jews by Muslims took place two years after the Qu'ran appeared in Medina in the year 624. It's part of the Muslim historical record, not just the Western historical record.
But the Palestinians deserve a state, and the Jews do not? Educate yourself. Your hatred and ignorance are equally appalling.
Sorry, your dates are off.
The Arabs, likely Africans and Europeans as well, regardless of faith, have been there at least since 3500 BCE. We know that from archaeology dating to that time which showed a thriving metropolis and trade center in what is now considered Israel/Palestine. Then it was called Canaan.
Abraham migrated from Mesopotamia (Iraq) in 1853 BCE, along with many others from throughout the region who would later be known as the Israelites. Racially, he was what we call Arab. Like people today, he sought opportunities and went where the opportunities were. Canaan was civilized and populated 2000 years before Abraham ever set foot in it.
Canaan became Palestine 3500 years ago, based on Egyptian hieroglyphics calling it such. These are actual facts, backed up by science and archaeology.
The land was never empty. It existed and was home to many tribes long before Judaism, Christianity or Islam ever existed.
I agree with your last sentence. But the main thing that is discrediting of your scholarship is your assertion that the biblical Abraham even existed. We have no proof of that. None. Especially not that Abraham of Mesopotamia, who I assume you mean was Abraham, father of the Jews (?), migrated in 1853 BC. We don't know anything for sure about almost any specific individual in 1853 B.C. There isn't even historical proof that Jesus of Nazareth existed exactly when we think he did. And that was only 2000 years ago.
"Canaan became Palestine 3500 years ago": False. Herodotus first used the term 2500 years ago, and it's unclear that he wasn't talking about what is Syria today. More important, no one was called a "Palestinian" before the year 1922. If you think I'm wrong, I'll need you to cite a primary source.
Also, while Arab traders (and raiders) surely made it to Jerusalem pre-Islam, just as Jews were in Medina pre-Islam, Arab civilization was almost 100% in the Arabian Penninsula before the year 630. And there is archaeological evidence that the ancient Greeks built a fortress in Jerusalem more than 2000 years ago (which is awesome), but none that any European civilization was there 3000 years ago or more.
I just read some of the replies to you. Geez. Sorry about those. Looking forward to continuing our debate offline.
You are correct. Prior to 1948, no state of Palestine existed. It was and still is a region.
Nation-states, as we currently define borders, have only existed for the past 500-600 years. They're a relatively new phenomena.
The nation of Israel, referring to the people of a common faith and culture, of course has existed for thousands of years under various names (Israelites, Hebrews, Jews, etc).
The political entity Israel, the nation-state, came into existence in 1948 and is currently recognized by 165 states—I had to look that up. I actually thought more nations recognized it.
To that end, as of 2012, the nation-state of Palestine is recognized by the UN. Today 139 of 193 members recognize it and several other nations are preparing to.
In the case of both nations, the number represents diplomatic recognition.
First off, what the colonists did to the native population of the Americas happened hundreds of years ago. Are you saying we have not evolved past that violent society? That we shouldn’t have higher ideals for government now? And yes, I do think we need a new America, one where the Native people are not held on reservations with little to no support or ability to take care of their own people.
The Jews that are indigenous to that area you call Israel were called PALESTINIANS. Majority of the population of Israel does not have ancestors that came from that area. Israel has actually made it illegal for Israelis to do DNA O test because of this.
Actually, Muslims have a long record of living peacefully with Jews.
YOUR hatred and ignorance is appalling! Stop swallowing Israeli propaganda and think for yourself!
My point was not that the United States wasn’t guilty of two major atrocities (slavery and genocide), but rather that Israel wasn’t, and yet you seem to think she doesn’t deserve to exist, but the United States does. This is hypocritical at best, antisemitic at worst.
The Land of Israel was never called Palestine before 1922, and the Jews were never called Palestinians before then. Arabs and Jews were only referred to by some as Palestinians from 1922-1948.
And as an expert on both Jewish and Arab history, I can assure you that I am aware that after Arab Muslims colonized Jerusalem in 638 AD, they eventually allowed Jews to practice their religion and live in peace as long as they paid a “jizyah” or tax to their Muslim rulers. Which was an improvement compared to Jews under Roman and then Christian rule.
The problem is, Arabs have also periodically ethnically cleansed their Jewish populations throughout history long before Israel was born. So yes, Muslims have a long history of living peacefully with Jews and a long history of slaughtering them too. Same as Europeans.
Last, roughly 45% of Israelis are of Middle Eastern descent and 55% of European and Ethiopian African descent. What you fail to grasp is that Jews made their way to Europe after being expelled from Arab and Northern African lands. Ashkenazi Jews and Mizrahi Jews share 20% DNA in common. This was only proven in the last 15 years, but it’s important for everyone to understand.
None of this is Israeli propaganda. Just historical and scientific fact.
I said the current America should not exist. Israel IS COMMITTING GENOCIDE! Their own leaders say so publicly and proudly! You want me to be hypocritical so you can dismiss my arguments, but I’m not. The name of the country is just a name. Israel cannot exist because it is now associated with a violent genocide. That’s just not going to fly. Whereas, the US crimes committed on the land it holds now was far back enough that the country could still be called America.
The land was called Palestine.
https://www.loc.gov/item/2016586536/
I do not seriously believe you are an expert in history if you didn’t even know the land was named Palestine…
If you go far back enough we all come out of Africa. So you’re saying someone with 20% of DNA has a claim to that land. I’m 20% Scottish can I go and claim land in England for its ethnic cleansing of the Scottish?
You are so far gone down the rabbit hole of Israeli propaganda that im not going to even waste my time talking to you. Do your own research. Stop believing Israel and embarrassing yourself
I meant there has never been a country called Palestine. Of course there was a region. But I was unclear. My bad.
Israel cannot exist because it is now associated with a violent genocide (is there any other kind?). If that's true, then I guess Germany can't exist anymore either. Do you agree they committed genocide?
And by your definition of genocide, all the Allied Powers and the Axis Powers of WW2 are guilty of genocide. So the U.S., Great Britain, Japan, Russia, Germany: none of them should be countries anymore? Gotcha.
Last, I am an Ashkenazi Jew and have 0% African DNA, but share 20% of my DNA with my Mizrahi cousins. See the difference? Big difference. Part of antisemitism is denying that the Jews are a people. I don't want to accuse you of antisemitism, but you're making it hard.
The land was named Palestine after the main enemy of the Jews, the Philistines. This was done to mock Jews after they were forced off the land. Artifacts exist in Israel which have been excavated to show Jewish existence on the land first. They buried the artifacts to try to hide Jewish existence and renamed the land Palestine.
Crystal, I think Matt's reference to using the term Palestine beginning in 1922 refers to the year the British were appointed to administer the region under a League of Nations mandate. So from 1922 the term "Palestine" referred to an administrative state rather than region (though admittedly mostly a formality).
Those are very evil words! Shame on you!
I cannot tell you how refreshing it is to read your posts on this topic. I stumbled on another writer here on Substack, who claims to be a journalist with a pedigree and was treated to historical revisionism, inaccurate facts and blatant Islamophobia and misdirected messianic delusions. It was one of the most shocking pieces I have ever read, liked by over 70.
The comments were even worse. Thank you for sticking to facts, humanity and moral decency Robert. It makes a difference.
Read a little more closely there is plenty of Islamaphobia embedded in Mr Reich's careful wording.
You might point that out to him with examples, Dr. Kaufman. The difference between Mr. Reich and others is he does take constructive criticism and makes adjustments when required. He's honestly trying to approach this issue fairly, I believe. As someone who covered Gaza for ten years, I can tell you that is extremely difficult. I don't always agree with his analysis, but I appreciate his efforts and opinions because they come from a position of seeking truth, trying to make sense out of chaos and approaching it from a human rather than dogmatic position.
The media using passive rather than active descriptions when Palestinians are killed and making the inference they are somehow could be at fault is not fair or constructive. It appears his urging is more to salvage his hopes of Biden being re-elected than any authentic concern for the people of Palestine. Robert Reich was posting articles making excuses for Biden's declining cognitive state up until a few weeks. It is a positive that he is at least covering the topic as most pro-Biden pundits are skirting the issue altogether, and I'm certain covering Gaza is "difficult" but I do not find the topic to be terribly complicated in light of the power imbalance between the two factions.
I'm beyond ticked off at the media in general over this (and Biden. Don't get me started). Nice to know I'm not the only one.
Have you ever seen the show "The Listening Post?" It's on Al Jazeera and all they do is cover how the media covers events worldwide. Since 7 October, the focus has been on the spin of the coverage of what is happening in Gaza, but they do a great job of covering global media. India's media is beyond nuts. It is by far my favorite weekly news magazine and I've been watching it since 2013. Highly recommend it if you're concerned about media, reporting and information and disinformation. I've been in the industry over 30 years and it kills me to see what has become of it. https://www.aljazeera.com/program/the-listening-post/ Going offline. Have a great night!
A phobia is an irrational fear. There is nothing irrational about wanting to keep fundamentalist Terrorist Muslims at bay, and unempowered. Note that I am NOT talking about all Muslims. Fundamentalist, terrorist Muslims who are, at core, anti-West. We do not need anymore useful idiots. Wake up and recognize what they are.
Who are you writing about: Iran, Saudi, Hamas? I am fully awake.
Hamas is not fundamentalist. Religiously, they're middle of the road.
The Saudis are as varied in their beliefs as any American ranging from ultra conservative to extremely progressive. Like the US, the more rural, the more fundamentalist. I know. I lived there.
The Iranians as a people and a society are closer to America than any other nation in the region. They've got a legitimate issue with us. We overthrew their democratically elected government in 1953 (with the British) because Mossadegh wanted to nationalize the oil so the people of Iran would benefit. BP and American oil companies preferred to benefit. As a progressive democrat, we, the US and UK, decided Mossadegh had to go. We then put a dictator in place which led to the revolution twenty-five years later and the pendulum swinging to the hard right. The society is slowly moving toward the center again over the past ten years.
What the Arab and Persian world are is anti-arrogance. They (West Asia) want us to stop bombing them, stop treating them like children and for us to have some respect for their culture, history, their faith and their lives. Currently, we (the West) don't do any of that. Instead we brand them terrorists, trash their religion, destroy their countries, support policies that kill their children and insist our way of doing things is the only right way. They've got good reason to be pissed at us, fundamentalist or not.
The "terrorists" and radical "fundamentalists" didn't exist with a vengeance against the West until the 20th century following WWI. Ask what happened in the last 105 years to change that. Israel is part of that, but only a branch on the tree of provocations. Why didn't the Romans, Ottomans, or Mamluks have to deal with "Terrorist Muslims?" These were empires and proxies in their lands too, yet for 1400 years, no "Terrorist Muslims." Now consider the Taliban, Daesh, Al Qaeda and other movements, all created in the last 40 years. Why now and what changed?
That is rhetorical.
Well said! LD Lewis
Much of this US intrusion, mostly accomplished through the CIA also impacted much of Central & South America. US greed and control issues.
terrorist muslims are a danger - we need to stop making more of them by our & Israel's actions (terrorizing people CREATES TERRORISTS)
Please stop booklicking for Biden. He will be remembered for the war criminal that he is. My generation wants a REAL choice and true democracy and Biden is not the answer to the path forward.
so you are okay with trump then?
No but I won’t be black mailed or guilt tripped into the “lesser or two evils” narrative that we’ve been and will continue to be sold on unless we collectively stand up for real change. I’m trying to actually create a better vision and belief in the future by actively engaging in my community and the causes I care about.
It's not a guilt trip if that is the choice. The question is merely if you are ok with what Trump will do as President. For one thing, I doubt he will be helping the Palestinians.
Trump wont be helping ANYONE but that’s not the point. The Democratic Party needs a serious wake up call and there is a large collective engagement at this moment in time to try and send that message. My current plan is to vote for Cornell West. I want a better future for the rest of my life, not just the next four years.
Are democrats doing anything seriously to help any of the causes I care for (environment, health care, housing, mental health, etc.)? The answer is no. Many dems and repubs are just two sides of the same coin.
I don't disagree with you, this has to end, but it will not under Trump and a vote for anyone other than Biden IS a vote for Trump. Sad but true. And I don't know that WE survive a second Trump presidency - look at his 2025 plan for women, is that the future you want? Because that's what a vote for anyone other than Biden will bring you. Honestly, I wish Joe had stepped aside but what we have is what we have. And Trump can never be in the Oval Office again for the world's sake, not just Gaza's.
I don't that WE survive a Biden presidency as he escalates tensions with China and North Korea and inches us towards nuclear confrontation with Russia in an unwinnable proxy war that he fostered by actively interfering with peace negotiations in March of 2022.
Reality check: you're voting for Trump and the GOP and project 2025,etc.
But it is the point. Why didn't you do anything before now to try and get a better candidate? Why do you think throwing your vote to Cornell West will send a message? That's fine, if you want to do it, but then the question is, what are you going to do, if Trump is the President?
What is your plan of action then? Also, I am on the same side as you as far as what Biden has done on many issues, but there are others he is succeeding in. If we expect people to be pure in every issue that they need to resolve, we will end up with people like Trump who are complete lying sociopaths.
In the words of Voltaire: "The better is the enemy of the good."
There is NO USE in voting for West or anyone but Biden. Please think about this long and hard.... Biden needs every vote he can get - or we'll be doomed with trump.
The honorable thing for Cornel to have done was to run in the Democratic primary instead of as an Independent. He would've gotten more coverage, infused more progressive ideas into the contest, & not jeopardized the chances of the eventual Democratic nominee.
I also disagree with his stance on the conflict in Ukraine, which is far too conciliatory to Russia.
Democracy is messy. Our Democracy has become increasingly less democratic due to gerrymandering, the electoral college, the Senate filibuster, a SCOTUS which is skewed in favor of favor of the wealthy, ever-increasing income inequality, and a media interested in only money at the expense of truth and fairness. Most of us here sympathize with your concerns; many of us are politically active (working with campaigns, giving $$, etc.). We need a younger generation which believes in a better future. But keep in mind that change is often slow, and it often takes crisis to bring about positive outcomes. In the mean time, compromise is usually necessary. The Democratic Party still understands this; the GOP does not. But if we can't work together somehow (as Sen Langford negotiated in good faith with Sen Murphy on immigration), nothing good will ever be possible.
A vote for Cornell West is a vote for Trump. You don’t have to like the lesser of two evils, but you do need to research the Electoral College and have an understanding as to what your vote means.
An understatement if I ever heard one. Trump admires Netanyahu! No surprise.
And vice versa.
Exactly. Trump didn't want any Muslims entering this country, which -- if you take a look at what's going on in Europe -- I could actually support. The one thing about Trump I could support.
And what, exactly, is going on in Europe that would justify persecuting people solely on the basis of their religion? I spend a lot of time there and seem to be missing it.
In terms of religious fanaticism I do not see any distinction between Islamic, Christian, Jewish, or Hindu extremists. I think the breeding of fanaticism is a natural byproduct of all religions' doctrinal assertion that theirs is the one and true path. And, sadly, if affects us atheists as well.
How can it get any worse under trump than it is now???
Read Project 2025. The concentration and extermination camps haven't started. In general summary and exjudical murder are not yet legal. We are at a tipping point, but have not yet tipped.
I disagree. The camps and summary and ex judicial murders have been in place for many years. The Israelis have killed 6,400 Palestinians since 2008, not counting the recent fatalities. (During this same time period roughly 300 Israelis have been killed.) The Israeli prisons are full of Palestinian children.
Seriously? Nothing will stop him from his sick narcissistic ambitions if he gets in for a 2nd term. Get your head out of the sand! So glad I’m not long for this world.
How about no states where abortion is legal?
And no birth control either.
I tried that in 1968. I didn't trust Humphrey, and at least I had the excuse that I didn't think Nixon could win, so I voted for Dick Gregory. Nixon the crook won, extended the war in Vietnam far beyond what Humphrey would have, and started the GQP on the corrupt road to Trump via Reagan, Gingrich, and Moscow Mitch.
Now you want to do the same thing starting with TRUMP as the baseline? That will almost certainly lead to an American Caligula and an atomic war. So go ahead, be too proud to be black mailed or guilt tripped into the “lesser or two evils” narrative and help the greater of two evils win. I just don't know if you'll have as long to live to regret it as I have.
I know you want real change; so did I, but you won't get it unless you can get MILLIONS together, and there is nobody running third party who can do that this time.
That's a good example, Maureen.
Thank you. I've lived with the guilt of that third-party vote for 56 years; I don't want anyone else to endure it.
You should be kinder to yourself. One vote didn't usher Reagan in.
Marianne Williamson is a better candidate in my opinion but another 4 years of trump would destroy democracy so the sane thing to do is ; Unite in stopping trump and when that is done go full speed ahead to fix the democratic party for 2028
Williamson, unlike Cornel, did the right thing by running in the Democratic primary, which gives Democrats a chance to vote for whomever they prefer in the primary, then the nominee in the general election.
Williamson might be a better candidate. Immaterial - no chance, therefore only a spoiler
Exactly why is she a better candidate? What makes her even remotely qualified? What would make her affective?
Emily, please don't teach your grandmothers to suck eggs. And please accept that at this point the choice is the 2 status quo parties. If you don’t vote Democrat, you are endorsing fascists.
American fascism has been spread around the world by the likes of Biden and Obama. Democratic Party fascism takes its form in McCarthyism, Zionism, the silencing of women of color in their party, the firing and demonization of pro-Palestinian and anti-war voices, the appointing of a presidential nominee without a primary process, Nancy Pelosi's call for the FBI to investigate pro-Palestinian protestors as agents of Putin and so on. There is a very long list indeed, and many of us understand that the reason Trump got into office was the indulgence of the worst tendencies of American empire by Obama and Biden.
You're absolutely right, Barry, but honestly, I don't think this country is ever going to change. It's tragic and infuriating but this is essentially a conservative country. I've been fighting it for almost sixty years and it's never gotten any better. So my feeling is that we only have a choice between the lesser of two evils. However in this case one of them will definitely finish us so we absolutely have to vote for Biden.
Unlike you Mary, I’m actually working towards change in this world and will vote accordingly. I will not accept the status quo and I am NOT endorsing fascism. Use your keyboard warrior adages on someone else, grandma.
You have no idea of what I have and haven't done or what I've seen changed and still hope to change. I am not a grandmother. And this is far, far from my first rodeo. If I were you I'd chose to accept realpolotik, not tilt at windmills. You may not be endsorsing fascists, but by voting for a 3rd part candidate, you are stripped votes from a candidate that could beat Trump. I hope that, in the event your pride in your refusal to compromise is sufficient comfort to offset the suffering Trump is promising.
You are kind. I would hope a lot worse for her. She is utterly clueless.
Consequences--intended or not--are still consequences. Whether you endorse fascism or not is irrelevent; whether you enable it is a more important question.
Emily, you may want to take your judgy attitude and retire it. You have no idea what people are or are not doing. You also have no idea what people have lived through or advocated for in words or actions. You keep saying you are making the world better? You are doing that by putting down others who have lived through a lot more harder things than younger generations have. So please stop telling yourself you are part of the solution when you never experienced the problems in any real way.
Emily; If you don’t vote for Biden you are giving a half of a vote to Trump.
I was that way until 2020, but now that the survival of democracy is on the line, I will vote for the Democrat. Besides which, no 3rd party or Independent candidate this year is better.
However, 73% of the electorate, including 61% who voted for Biden in 2020, say Biden is too old. (Yes, Trump is almost as old, but he is able to project a more vigorous image.) The Democratic Party should respond by running strong, sharp younger candidates, but the DNC has a knack for sabotaging Democrats' chances.
I'm not sure I've ever seen as strong & nearly universal admiration & approval of anyone by Democrats as much as Jamie Raskin. Run him & Democrats would crush Republicans in 2024.
Jaime, that so-called vigorous image is just wishful thinking and blindness on the part of people who have an axe to grind with Biden. Trump is fat, old, and unhealthy. Biden looks much better to me. These people are wearing rose-colored glasses.
I have noticed how both sides claim their guy is fine while the other guy is slipping mentally if not totally demented. The truth is somewhere in the middle for both guys. The side that realizes that & chooses a younger, sharper, stronger, more vigorous, & more obviously competent candidate is the side likely to win.
I don't disagree. I think Biden is being very foolish and we could all end up much worse off for his stubbornness. I'm just saying that Trump's fans are deluding themselves. (And Biden's fans, if he can be said to have fans, like him because of what he's done, not because he's athletic or runs around holding rallies.)
A Northeastern candidate has no chance. We are back in 1850.
Oh, nonsense! Parcing candidates based on where they live rather than their policies, character, sharpness, energy, etc. is folly.
Emily, guilt tripped is not the word to use. You choose to ignore significant accomplishments of Biden. I too am angry that he doesn’t fist-pound when talking about Netanyahu. We should not be an outlier with the UN by not calling for a ceasefire. But, if you think both are equally bad, you are sadly mistaken. We will see groups targeted for genocide here. You will not be able to protest any of it. The choice is Biden or Fascism. We can force issues once the rescumliCons implode. We have to put more Progressives down ballot. We must get control of Congress! Have you read the plan? 2025?
Btw, I threw away my first vote on an independent named John Anderson. Although he was a great candidate, he did not have a party backing him. My ignorant vote, due to my not understanding the electoral college, led to Reagan’s presidency. I would have much rather have had Carter but not understanding politics, I accidentally gave my vote to Reagan. 🤮
Any blackmail or guilt trip is your own bias telling you you are wrong in demanding the situation to be different than it is. The reality, the unvarnished truth is the choice is what it is. Who will you get behind? Will you get behind anyone or stand in the middle of a busy street and demand your concerns be addressed NOW. You make good points, now, is not the time to be taken seriously. My opinion.
Sorry but most of us aren't buying it anymore. What precisely is worse than genocide by a racist president? Have you noticed that Biden has expanded Trump's border policies repeatedly? And now he's inviting Trump to work on a southern border bill and offering to shut it down? No, we don't need amoral leaders who look only at the next election. This is how we got Trump in the first place. Only a small fraction of the population actually wants either of these incompetents as president and the fact that Democrats have to scare everyone with the prospect of Trump shows how desperate the situation has become.
This attitude is exactly what those with real power love and seek . Division and conflict. People have to forget about left and right, and come together. The system is broken from the bottom up. The dems have turned into a bunch of globalist debauched sell outs. Many of the other side are too.
Trump is no angel, he’s a narcissistic nut, but he is an enemy of the globalist deep state, so for that reason, I would support him and hope for the best, maybe RFK might join him, but he too has been compromised and is most certainly being blackmailed by the Zionist elite. Not many other options.
VV: "the globalist deep state"--I mean the real one, not the mythical one you have in mind--has give us unprecedented prosperity and has prevented, thus far, an all-out WW III. Believing conspiracy theories, and trusting Santa Claus to save us, is pathetically naive. Diversify your sources of information.
You’re 33 Trillion in debt, fighting never ending wars and throwing over democratically elected governments globally since the 1950s. Your country is on the verge of total ruin and your reputation globally in ruins. You have a fenthanol crises, an immigration crises, a debt crises, an education crises. Your president is talking to dead people and funding and promoting wars while neglecting those at home, but hey, all ok 👍👍
VV: I am sorry you feel neglected, and I trust your feelings are based on fact, not myth. Yes, the country is in deep trouble, and so is the rest of the world, but, as in historian, I can tell you that things could be a lot worse than they are now. The cup that is half empty is also half full. Don't trust people who tell you that complex problems have simple solution,, and individuals who tell you that if you give them enough power they will deliver you from your troubles. You live in a country that has a Constitution, which provides due process for resolving grievances and conflicts. This Constitution has served us well. Defend it!
No one has been been able to give me a clear explanation of the deep state, though one seemed to involve lizards wearing costumes. Could you please try to lay it out for me? Thanks
Professor Peter Dale Scott coined the term - he has a number of books . Here is a relevant article https://liberatedtexts.com/reviews/imperialism-and-the-deep-state-in-peter-dale-scotts-the-road-to-9-11/
even if trump accidentally had a good idea, he's an idiot and unlikely to implement any good ideas, only be bull in china shop
You should take your meds and stay off social media
It’s positively disgusting. You have to have blind loyalty to Biden, Blinken, et al, to continue to support this admin, who has given their unending support to this genocide.
I have lost all respect for you, Robert Reich.
ISRAEL IS AN APARTHEID STATE. Netanyahu is a fascist dictator.
Biden dropping R2E meals is like Trump tossing paper towels to desperate Puerto Ricans after the hurricane. It’s diabolical in its callous disregard for what the U.S. has done to this beautiful population of people.
Thanks K Miller. I’m in the same boat, lost all respect for this man. I’ve unsubscribed from Robert after this post (admittedly I haven’t been reading much of what he’s posted because I’ve had this reaction to other “takes” of his).
Israel is not an apartheid state. Maybe you should do more “research”.
Ah yes. Another Zionist apologist giving cover to the fascist, illegal occupier that is Israel, the state that has terrorized the Palestinians for decades, imprisoned thousands without charge, created the largest open air prison in the world, expelled millions from their homes and lands and turned them into refugees, enforced a blockade, rationed food and water…DECADES before Oct 7.
Stop the nonsense. The world didn’t pay any mind before now. But now the world knows what a pariah state Israel is.
Yeah, Israel is worse than China, the Sudan murders, and all the other states that are run by anyone but Jews. You are all so brainwashed that you don’t know up from down. What is the difference between Isis and Hamas? I hope you never have to find out.
lol of course you would feign persecution of Jews. The genocide they are committing against the Palestinians is being live-streamed. The brainwashed are those Israelis who teach their children to sing songs about ethnic cleansing of Palestinians. The brainwashed are IDF soldiers who are so convinced no one will stop them that they’re uploading videos of blowing up Palestinians homes and buildings and others where they glorify shooting Palestinians. The brainwashed are people like you who can watch endless videos and see the carnage and remain cold as ice to the hell Israel is raining down.
Feign persecution of the Jews. One day you will realize your mistake and you will be sorry for the lies that you willfully believed.
Please tell us what Biden should be doing and how would he accomplish it? Please also make public the private diplomatic conversations that you know that Blinken has been having around the clock with multiple Arab leaders, including Hamas, in an attempt to move towards peace. You obviously know much more than the rest of us!
Stop the nonsensical bs. Biden and Blinken gushingly support Netanyahu with billions of more dollars than previously given to the Israeli govt for months. We’re the only western nation that refuses to back the ICJ and the UN in calling for a ceasefire. We’ve cut off funding to UNWRA. No one paying attention believes the utter lies the Israeli govt keeps spouting.
K Miller, Bullshit. Nobody in the Biden admin is gushingly supporting Netanyahu. Just like MAGAs, this is so hysterical and laser focused on one thing. Where the hell have you been with so many other unnecessary deaths around the globe?! And yes, The British & US & Japan etc have been brutal and destructive. Where were you for all genocides!? Trump is a deadly seditionist inciter, a rapist, 91 indictments, he IS supporting FASCISM! And you want to convince me trump & Biden are the same?! I don’t think so!
With Trump in the White House Putin will be allowed to overrun Europe. For that reason alone he needs to be stopped. Of course there are countless others. Biden is not perfect but he won't deport every immigrant, weaponize the Justice Department, sign a national abortion ban, or abandon NATO. Guess who would.
Exactly. I usually suspect trolling with this Biden =trump BS
About 5 months ago, Biden practically French kissed Netanyahu - the Israeli president who was about to be tried for corruption and attempting to change the judicial system. Biden repeated all Bibi’s lies - saying babies were beheaded, Palestinian deaths were being inflated, etc, etc., then ordered billions of dollars in weapons be sent to Israel. Then he dared the ME to try and stop Netanyahu by sending in the Navy, followed by bombing the Houthis. He’s continued to push for more weapons and money to fund the assault.
No - you don’t want to see the truth that’s staring you in the face. Why don’t we all get busy and kick both Biden and Trump to the curb, eh? Because no one said Trump was better. But you will never get me to side with Genocide Joe. It’s time to push the DNC for an open convention. Ya’ll can continue to bury your heads in the sand…but Biden’s candidacy is toast.
Show me the video clip. You sound more MAGA with every comment.
So who is? Trump?
Cornell West will be receiving my vote this fall.
You might as well vote for Trump then. This is not the election to waste your vote. Next time if there will be one. If Trump wins there might be not. Blame the two party system not me.
We vote for who we want to in this democracy that Democrats are saving yes? Why are you vote shaming and telling people how to vote in this glorious democracy of ours??
I am just realistic. No other candidate in the upcoming Presidential election has a chance to become President. Voting is a chess game not a vote for the person you like best. So if you don't want Trump to win you have to vote for the candidate which has the biggest chance of beating him. And that is Biden. Like it or not. Protest votes, not voting or voting for the candidate you like best will not do any good. Do I like this system? No! I wished the US would have three or four viable parties to make it a better competition and force more compromise. But this is the reality for this November. Afterwards if we still have a democracy let's all work on improving this system. And if the hanging chad fiasco in FL taught us as anything every single vote counts.
👏👏👏
You know why.
It IS a vote for Trump.
So - Donald Trump. Seriously.
Great reply Jayna. Really working to create the change you’d wish to see in the world!
Okay, I'll really work to (probably not, but who knows) create some change.
"Going to the polls" in an election is not the same as giving one's opinion. Like an opinion poll, one only has a finite (and small) list of options. In a blog like this, one can give one's precise opinion, as you've done with your judgment of Pres. Biden. Fine. But the affairs of a collective of 330 million people cannot be run with 330 million opinions (on every subject, some changing frequently). Hence we choose representatives via a selective process in which we narrow the choices in successive steps. And hence, no matter what one might like, we have a small selection of candidates to choose for our votes. It is *always* the lesser of two (or more) imperfect choices, whether one chooses to call them evils or not.
That Cornel West (a great thinker and teacher) has chosen to run for president in this election, knowing he will siphon votes away from Biden, is one very good reason not to vote for him as a leader. He says that won't happen; he'll motivate more non-voters to come out than he might siphon away. That is his choice to believe; I don't. Third parties are not practical in a non-parliamentary system without ranked-choice voting; there is not a single counterexample, and plenty of statistical foundations for that assertion. Try to get the laws changed if you like; that's fine. But we won't have them this year, and a vote that might have gone to Biden that goes to someone else (or no one at all) is a vote for Trump. That is the reality.
I understand basic mathematics and psychology. Thank you for the compliment.
Yes, C West will transform the world, and we will live happily ever after.. If you want change you have to give up wishful thinking.
True democracy means you get to pick the leader?
Hahahaha! Good luck.
Netanyahu has to go but he won’t, Biden can use all the pressure he wants but as long as Netanyahu is in charge…. That means the Israelis don’t remove him there will be problems. The US seems to have backed off total support but needs to back off more.
Gee, just stop sending military aid and weapons. There's the frickin' pressure!
And if we remove all aid to Israel, do you think that will stop them from seeking it elsewhere? And then what influence would the US have?
Don’t remove all aid, just remove or curtail MILITARY aid and for godsakes, the weaponry being used in Gaza. The US is Israel’s greatest ally. Who else would they turn to, Russia? But no, cynic that I am, I suspect the military and the weapons makers are jones-ing over the opportunity to sell and test out new weapons and do training on a live population.
We’re all gonna burn in Hell.
He’s made himself a wartime president and like Trump, wants to stay out of prison. He’s a war criminal and needs to be tried and prosecuted at The Hague.
Please explain how Biden is a war criminal. We all want to understand how in seeking to broker a peace deal (negotiations as we speak) and having sought multiple means of getting aid to Gazans Biden qualifies as a war criminal. Which Gazans did he personally kill?
You'd have better luck talking to a brick wall.
He means Netanyahu, not Biden.
Of course not! I’m referring to Netanyahu.
Okay, sorry, I misunderstood.
The US hasn't had any problems with instigating regime change in Iraq, Chile, Haiti, Vietnam, heck, just fill in the blank________, so why not Israel?
Not at all true. You can try and excuse Biden but all he has to do is stop sending weapons and stop blocking UN resolutions. If you haven't noticed, his actions completely contradict his rhetoric.
I suspect that Netanyahu and supporters come from the Henry Kissinger/Madeleine Albright school of geopolitics, where the sacrifice of citizen lives, children, even Israeli lives, is a price that is "worth it" in pursuit of the larger objective — essentially the complete obliteration of Palestine and its people.
Gee, equating Kissinger with Albright? Really? I would classify them at opposite ends. Albright actually cared about people more than politics.
Did you see the interview with Albright by Leslie Stahl on 60 Minutes after the Iraq war?
"We have heard that half a million [Iraqi] children have died. I mean, that is more children than died in Hiroshima," Stahl said. "And, you know, is the price worth it?"
"I think that is a very hard choice," Albright answered, "but the price, we think, the price is worth it."
https://www.newsweek.com/watch-madeleine-albright-saying-iraqi-kids-deaths-worth-it-resurfaces-1691193
Chuck, you do remember that Madeleine Albright was Sec. of State during Bill Clinton's Presidency, right?
Is that supposed to invalidate the point? The point is that too many leaders all around are necrophilic monsters who should be no where near the levers of power. Unfortunately, those are the types who tend to attain such positions.
God help us all.
Except Bill that not all people in such positions are "necrophilic monsters". Madeleine Albright was one of the most highly moral, compassionate,
and effective leaders we ever had. Too much "journalism" amounts to picking and choosing to support a personal agenda and/or plain shoddy and incompetent "research" to meet a deadline and "sell". Though Albright isn't able to defend her actions now, I will take the opportunity. Comparing her to Kissinger is preposterous. Night and day differences when you look at the sum of their careers. See my response to Chuck (and link) below. Does anyone here actually take the time to research FULLY before making BROAD assumptions???
Admittedly, I know little about Albright’s history and activities. I was going mainly off of her actual statement in the 60 minutes interview. But maybe it was over-interpreted by myself and pundits.
And you’re right, researching to get the full context is always important. It’s just that we are inundated with so much information these days that it’s hard not to shoot from the hip some of the time.
https://cdn.factcheck.org/UploadedFiles/Iraqi-death-toll-doesnt-add-up.pdf
You're welcome, Chuck.
Hamas is the problem, not Israel. The surrounding Arab countries closing their borders is the problem, not Israel. Civilians should not be in a war zone. The only reason they are is because Hamas wants it that way, and the Arab countries are helping them. Hamas is the one who will not agree to a cease fire, not Israel. Progressives should not be backing Arab theocratic autocracies. We need to stand behind Israel, a democracy, instead. There are 22 Arab countries, many vast and wealthy. They can afford and they have room to help shelter civilians. They would rather spend the money on anti-Israeli propaganda that has people who should be able to spot it conforming to its ideas. You can tell the stolen election story is propaganda, why can't you see the Israel as bully and Palestine as victim story is a manipulation by Arab dollars? I stand with Israel. There is only one Israel, one Jewish homeland, a place where Jews have lived long before the first Palestinian ever appeared, and they were known then as Philistines. I wouldn't be bragging about that if I was them.
Palestinians deserve a homeland just as much as Israel does. Israel needs to stop breaking the law by continuing to illegally settle Palestinian territory.
True, but the Palestinians should act like people capable of self-rule rather than terrorism.
Not when they use that land to attack Israel, launching rockets from rooftops in civilian areas. For almost 20 years Gaza was controlled by Egypt, the west bank was controlled by Jordan (1948-1967). Neither country saw a reason to create yet another Arab autocratic theocracy called Palestine. Israel is the one who agreed to a Palestinian state hoping for peace. Every gesture they have made for peace has been met with violence and hate. Hamas's stated goal is to kill all the Jews. That's why people became so upset with that "from the river to the sea" chant. That's what that meant, kill all the Jews. Israel is a democracy with over 2 million equal Arab citizens, not disenfranchised or treated differently in any way, unlike you may have heard in propaganda. Progressive Arabs like Israel's democracy and chose to become citizens. There are many Arab countries with zero Jews in its population. So calling Israel an apartheid nation is yet more Arab-funded propaganda.
I try really hard not to be negative or confrontational on this forum, but you need to pull your head out of your ass.
I am speaking the truth. I am disappointed that so many of my fellow progressives have decided to stand up for terrorists, the type of a nation that treats women like chattel and criminalizes gay people. Israel is a democracy. I don't like Netanyahu, he should be gone, and they succeeded once in removing him. Fear is what puts people like him in power, and who caused that fear? Hamas.
Israel may be a democracy for its citizens, but it's a terrorist state to the people who were living there before Israel came into being
That is pure propaganda, not an ounce of truth in it. Israel is a democracy with over 2 million Arab citizens included equally. Israel agreed to the establishment of Palestine hoping it would create peace for its citizens, but it never has because there has been one Arab terrorist group or another with an agenda to destroy Israel from the get go. Jews lived in Israel long before any Palestinians came over to occupy it. Book of Samuel is the first place any mention of them being in that area, and it says they (known as Philistines at that time) enslaved the children of Israel (the Jews). Learn history, it's helpful to create a broader world view. Look at who you are defending. They are not innocent of wrongdoing, they were not there first and then kicked out. That is propaganda. The whole world agreed that Israel would be restored as the Jewish homeland, the one and only Jewish homeland only about the size of New Jersey. There are 22 Arab countries, most of them are autocratic theocracies that deny rights to women and criminalize gay people. Israel took nothing from Palestine. If not for Israel agreeing to the two-state solution, there would not be a Palestine today. It had already been conquered and was occupied by the British at the time Israel was returned to the Jews as their homeland. But are they grateful for the chance to have their own homeland? No. They let it fall into the hands of one terrorist group after another with a stated goal of killing all the Jews. You're on the wrong side if you are liberal and progressive.
I find Jean's words to be true as well. My head isn't in my ass. My head is wondering how Palestinians could live like kept animals with 50 percent unemployment. Is there not one intellect that looks to their hand held electronic device and wonder how to get out, free oneself from Hamas rule? Then entire Gaza is a fishbowl of people being supported by other countries. Not one Navalny, only throwing stones at Israel. Netenyahu's time I think is past. His heart is as cold as Trump. If the hostages were released, it would be over.
My apologies. I misunderstood your original post. I agree with you about Palestinians needing to free themselves of Hamas, but how do they do that while they are also under the thumb of Israel?
Look into history not for who should "own " what but the history of them.
You don't understand woh Hamas is. When you figure out Hamas is an arm of Iran and connected to Russia the light begin to go on. Why is Bibi doing any of this? This horrid man is a Trump figure also connected to Putin. Please shake yourself awake. We want to be human, these people are bred, fed, and owned and used as human shields. It's horrid. Make it stop, we all want that or youre calling me a warmonger? We are indeed trying. The answer is not give them a plot of land. I don't know the answer. Get rid of Bibi, get aid in. Better cooler heads. Screaming at Joe shows a lack of grasping the situation.
I said I agree with you and I never called you a war monger. Anyone that doesn’t have their head up their ass knows Hamas doesn’t represent the Palestinians and is simply a pawn of Iran and Russia. I don’t believe that Israel should even exist as a nation. Why do Jews need a nation? Most religions don’t have a nation, as such. Many nations are dominated by a particular religion but don’t claim to exist because of that religion. We gave the middle east Israel to maintain power and control in the region. By the way, I never “screamed at Joe” I only spoke what I believe is the truth, he needs to stand up to Netanyahu and we need to stop giving Israel money and arms.
Israel the concept and the reality allowed for Jews to become citizens and gave the ability to own land. That privilege was denied around the world, historically. Additionally, being a Jew is part of a community, not a religion. I’m a Jew, I don’t go to temple. I am a Jew none the less. Yes, it is a religion too. One doesn’t have to be Jewish to be a citizen of Israel. There’s a bunch of assumptions people and you make many things surrounding these discussions. Your opinions are strong but come from a place of assumptions that this region and the people are the same as in the US. The corruption of corrupt Russians Jews now Israeli shouldn’t be overlooked. Bibi is not forgetting them ever.
I am no apologist for Israel, Mark, despite being a Jew. But if there were no Israel where do you think Jews should go? This is a serious question.
Well, is the citizen death toll 30,000 and counting - half of them children?
Half of the population is under 18. Hamas has them breeding quickly.
More likely it's because all the adults have been killed.
“There’s an acronym used in Gaza, WCNSF: ‘Wounded child with no surviving family.’ According to media reports, an estimated 17,000 Palestinian children fall under that category,”
https://theintercept.com/2024/03/02/gaza-flour-massacre-propaganda/
And that is the fault of Hamas and the surrounding Arab countries. Hamas could end it now by not firing rockets into Israel from civilian areas and then not letting the civilians leave that area, using them as shields.
I realize this is an upsetting situation all around, and people try to make sense of it, then tend to lock down on that position. But are you aware that Netanyahu was actually instrumental in the formation of Hamas — with the intention of weakening the PLO and dividing the population? (See Israeli newspaper Haaretz: https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-10-20/ty-article-opinion/.premium/a-brief-history-of-the-netanyahu-hamas-alliance/0000018b-47d9-d242-abef-57ff1be90000)
Frankly, the “human shields” thing seems to be used as a hypnotic trigger-word to put people in a trance whereby the stop all further questioning. There is generally always more to the story than the simple black/white soundbites we get in mainstream media.
That claim has been made by a fairly reputable source, but Netanyahu denies it. There wasn't actual proof, or I'm sure he would have been prosecuted for it, because that would be treason. It was speculation. I don't want Netanyahu in charge of Israel any more than I want Trump in charge of the USA, but that doesn't change the fact that the whole Palestinians being kicked out of their homes by big bully Israel story is false. In the beginning those choosing to be displaced rather than becoming a citizen of Israel's democracy were paid so they could move elsewhere, according to Golda Meier in a talk at the Jewish Community Center in San Francisco in the 80s. The same thing happened then, though, the Arab countries closed their borders so those who did not want to live in Israel could not go back to their country of origin either. Most Palestinians are from other Arab countries. As bad as Netanyahu is, he never reached the same level of evil as Hamas. He didn't kidnap, torture and murder people. He didn't start this war on October 7 with acts of bone chilling terror, and then orchestrate it so that civilians could not leave the war zone. That was Hamas.
Thanks Jean for continuing to discuss! Glad we are on the same page regarding the likes of Trump and Netanyahu. And I don’t mean to condemn Israel as a whole.
But I have seen the videos of high rise apartment buildings being leveled by bombs and missiles. (You’ll note that a first order of business was to cut off phone and Internet access in Gaza. Apparently the world was not supposed to see what was about to happen.) That’s likely how thousands of non-involved citizens are killed.
I’m puzzled by your statement that most Palestinians come from other Arab countries. My understanding is they came from Palestine (at least pre-1948 Palestine).
Arafat was from Egypt and he is the most well-known Palestinian. The videos of civilians being killed is not the whole story. Why are they even there once Hamas started a war? Gaza became a war zone, and normally civilians are evacuated while the opposing military forces fight it out. Why is that not the case in this war that Hamas started? Because Hamas does not value human life, not even that of fellow Palestinians. They prevented civilians from leaving and on top of it, they are supported by the surrounding Arab countries refusing to allow more than a trickle of refugees past their borders. They can afford to shelter them safely while the war is going on, but they refuse to let more than a trickle in, mostly the badly wounded. They aren't poor, and they have a lot of space. Bottom line in this conflict, Hamas has a written credo calling for the death of every Jew in Israel, and a further call to jihad to kill every Jew in the world. That is why it is frightening for Jews to see those who normally support them suggesting the Palestinians are the victims here. They are not. They have always been the aggressor from ancient times to the present. They are claiming rights to land that they do not really have. If they had at one time, those rights have been forfeited once they used that land to launch attacks at Israel, rockets from rooftops, tunneling into Israel. The UN would not accept Palestine as a member because of their stated mission to kill all the Jews. Why is anyone standing up for them now? They are the threat. I would hope an intelligent leader would be like Obama and use intelligent ops to take out the leadership with minimal civilian injury and death, but the way Hamas uses the civilian population makes that much less possible. They use them like shields so they can cause outrage against Israel when they are going after those who have been killing innocent Jews and taking them hostage. They are not reasonable people, they are full of hate and they want to establish yet another autocratic theocracy that denies human rights for women and gay people.
I agree, generally.
Bob is coming rather late to this realization. Chris Hedges has been pointing out American and Biden’s complicity in the genocidal slaughter for months
So has Bernie Sanders.
When i was ten years old back in the 70s we prayed for “peace in the Middle East” every Sunday at church. We have been supporting Israel for far too long, only for our believed benefit.
Too little attention has been given to the 75 years of American supported Israeli
made Palestinian concentration camp in Gaza and horrors on the West Bank
He doesn’t even call it genocide. He’s still pushing Israel propaganda. “Audacious” rescue. Revolting!
Exactly, total lack of leadership, statesnanship and truth telling repeating Nateyahu's narrative of lies
THANK YOU!
Yes indeed, Bob and many of these commenting here would be well advised to study Chris’ work in detail.
Please do not call this a war. 31,000+ Palestinians dead, 75,000 injured. Palestine has no army or weaponry comparable to the Israelis. Gazans have no food, water, shelter, or medical supplies. It is a slaughter of an occupied people.
What about a Middle East Treaty Organization comprised of Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, to become the permanent security organization in Gaza? Neither Palestinian nor Israeli leadership can do anything to bring about peace. If we - the US - are leading the way, President Biden needs to propose a long term solution to Gaza as well as a Palestinian state. Both.
The US must support removal of Israel as "stewards" over Palestine by the United Nations. At best, Israel has treated the territories as subservient colonies. At worst, they could be said to be maintaining concentration camps. Netanyahu has sought to maintain a status quo by expanding settlements while kicking the can of Palestinian dissatisfaction into the future. It will not work. No more funding for Israel until changes are met. Biden must abandon the fence straddling policies. They aren't working. Note that support for improving the lot of the Palestinian people does not mean support for the actions of Hamas. This situation is a blistering pustule which must be lanced and cleaned out in order to heal.
Joe is putting more than just Palestinians at risk with his "discrete" behind the scenes plans. He's risking the election. He has to get out in front of this loud and clear, regardless how Israel feels about that, because this is just NOT sustainable, the level of civilian deaths so far exceeds the deaths in that abominable massacre that the moral ground is clearly an end to the carnage. It is, of course, on Hamas too, just release the hostages, this stops and people's heads and hearts can begin to clear and work on a lasting peace can begin.
As long as Hamas retains its position that all Jews must be killed they feed Netanyahu's war machine and ego which is as big as Trump's. Trump will not be helping Palestinians, people have to realize that. But what Biden is not doing in public isn't acceptable either. This can't be political calculus, it is a humanitarian crisis and Biden must be seen ending it. There's no other choice.
Excellent article and newsletter. Easier said than done. Netanyahu is a snake and can’t be trusted. He’ll patronize Biden to death until election time, while undermining any efforts to resolve the issue, and then pray Trump gets elected.
And why is the left and center in Israel paralyzed with fear? Israel was under attack, but the response is nothing less than a genocide.
Forget “middle class” Joe as his nickname. Biden will forever be known as “Genocide” Joe if he doesn’t reverse course soon. If this cease fire fails, then he must take stronger action.
Let’s hope the ceasefire happens, if not all bets are off. And make no mistake, Netanyahu and his right-wing cohorts are not a friend to America. They would gladly help destroy our republic and democracy; letting it slip into Trump’s kleptocratic, authoritarian hands, if it serves their interests.
And it definitely serves their interests. Both Trump and Netanyahu’s political fates will sink or swim together!
give us an address that we can forward your article to, so that they can know that we have read it and agreed. The women and children of the Gaza strip deserve some support