Not really, the Arabs tried to obliterate the Jews in 1948, they failed, again and again they tried, failed each time and the result is that they lost land each time.
Here we go for the umpteenth time.I will try to educamate you.
There have always been Jews in that forsaken desert, even while the Ottoman Turks ruled it.
In the 1920's Theodore Herzl, toured Europe recruiting families to relocate to what was then Turkish controlled Palestine. The emigrees purchased the land from the inhabitants, what was basically an infertile land with some olive and orange groves, soon bloomed when the Jews built kibttuz and made the desert bloom.
Mark Twain visited Jerusalem and wrote that he found it a garbage dump. The Jews cleaned up the mess the Arabs had made.
In May 1948 Israel was declared a nation by the UN, in Nov 1948, the Arab neighbors, Jew hating Arab neighbors, shamed by what a handful of Jews had done to what was fallow desert, fell on the Jews to commit genocide. The outnumbered Jews beat the Arabs and confiscated land to extend their boundaries and try to ensure their safety.
This the "Palestinians" call the naqba or catastrophe, it was brought on by themselves, their Muslim and Arab brothers.
They didn't learn the lesson then, and came back again and again, 1956, 1967, 1973, 2006, 2014, Oct 7th and each time the lost and each time they lost more land.
Do you know what Muslim Arabs live in enclaves? Because they won't be good neighbors and live peaceful with the Jews.
Despite that, there are 2 million Arab citizens of Israel, they have the full rights of a citizen including the vote and have even served in the Knesset.
Now you tell me this. There are 57 Islamic ethnostates, many without any Jews, some with as little as 100 Jews, and none of them are welcome citizens with full rights and the vote, no Jew citizen of a Muslim state serves or has served in the government. Islamic governments aren't real democracies either. They are theocracies, where religion rules.
I heard the Foreign Minister of Malaysia on Christiane Amanpour and Co, he claimed that Malyasia was a democracy with human rights for all,but when Chrtiane asked him about LGBT, he obfuscated, see LGBT have no rights and are persecuted in Malaysia,and blamed it on the religion.
Plz sincere question- Gaza has FREE utilities- paid by Israelis, coastline property all around, universities, hospitals, ancient archives/landmarks, modern tech- so why have Palestinians not thrived as a vacation destination as Israel has? Egypt and Dubai have ( so do not blame oppressive religion or govt)
Why no nation changing profit in exporting unique produce or foods or services as Israel also has created?
You don't want me to blamean oppressive religion or gov't, but HAMAS is the governing authority in Gaza, and it is anything but liberal.
Dubai is zoned, within Muslim zones, Sharia prevails and women wear abaya's, and are not considered humans, not like men. In the money making zones, they have relaxed standards for westerners.
Not much different than Saudi Arabia. Saudi's consider the peninsula (Arabia) to be sacred Islamic ground, it is after all where Mecca, which is sacred to Muslims, and Medina, where Muhammad lived and died, and where he had 600 Jews of the tribe Banu Quaryza (tribe and banu are redundant, as Banu means tribe), beheaded 6 at a time.
The Saudi's quickly discovered that they needed western expertise, technology and resources to pump oil,, so they had to hire kufr (kaffir or infidels), but it was sacrilege to have kufr living on sacred Islamic soil.
The solution is to desacralize plots of l;ands, surround them with walls, and call them compounds, and let the kufr do what they want inside the compounds, which the Saudi's consider foreign territory.
On the other hand, HAMAS rules Gaza with an iron fist, they had one election, in 2006, and no election since. It doesn't even put on the pretense of a democracy, like Putin does.
Gaza is an occupied land kept in subjugation by Israel. Israel controls everything that goes in and out, and allowed only minimal food, water and medical even before Oct. 7. Poverty was extreme, people could not move about freely due to checkpoints everywhere, even fishing in the Mediterranean was severely restricted. Child beggars were in the streets. Palestinians' land was stolen and they were driven from their homes, often in the middle of the night. Israel imprisoned thousands , including children, without charges or trial. The ones that are tried are done in military courts where the conviction rate is over 99%. Gaza was considered the largest open air prison on earth. This is all before Oct. 7.
The nature of your comments reveals the fantasies American Jews have about Israel and its treatment of the Indigenous population, a testament to the success of the enormous Israeli propaganda machine.
Interesting history lesson Lee, although quite over the top in racism toward Arabs/Muslims which is never diplomatically helpful. Seems to me it's 2024 and the situation is completely out of control due to the continued slaughter by Israel - risking a much bigger conflagration in the Mideast.
Neither Arab or Muslim is a race. Arabs come in all shades and colors, from blue eyed, blond hair to black. Islam is a religion not a race,
And I hold a brief against Islam, the same I hold towards any religion,
I have studied Islam. Have you. Of course not. I have three versions of the Quran, one is the version that Thomas Jefferson have. I've read the hadiths, and the biography of Muhammad by ibn Ishaq which is more than even a Taliban has done. (The name Taliban means student)
It is a god awful inolerant, misogynistic and homophobic religion, and not at all pluralistic, not in it's own land under it's own leadership.
The disaster inGaza is the total responsiblity of HAMAS. And if HAMAS is not eliminated, they will come back for more and more, until all the Jews in Israel are obliterated, It says so in their covenant, and the leadership has said so on TV.
They are a nation of martyrs and martyrs are glorified not mourned,.
Again everything that is happening in Gaza is laid on the lap of the leadrship of HAMAS, it is a belligerent, anti human, religious organization that uses its own people as human shields.
Shame on you, for defending that which is indefensible.
You wrote everything I would have written. In addition, 850,000 Jews who had lived in Arab countries for generations were forced to leave those Countries . Many settled in the new State of Israel.
“From the river to the sea” the phrase chanted by Palestinian supporters comes directly from the revised Hamas charter, meaning they claim all that land, thus completely
obliterating Israel. They will keep trying to do just that
Ruth, true although my numbers differ slightly. 900,000. They were put in tents. No country at the time would absorb them. When Israel was given their portion of the land that the partition granted them, they were absorbed into the country along with any Arabs that wished to become an Arab/Israeli citizen. That's why they currently represent 20% of Israel's population and are represented by Monsour Abbas in the Knesset, who was a member of the Muslim Brotherhood and graduated from Hebrew University. They have full citizenship and the right to vote. How many Jews live in Arab lands and are represented in their schools of higher learning or represented in their governments. Answer ZERO!
I don't have a version. Zionists consider me an antisemite. I have no dog in this fight,and hold the Muslims and right wing Israelis in total disgust.
I know what I know, and I really don't take sides. I am an atheist, former Catholic, and hold all religions in suspicion and disgust.
And I don't adopt an identity based on superficialities or irrelevancies. As a matter of fact I am pretty fed up with humans, and find that my age and infirmities are a blessing.
I have more compassion for animals than I do people, and frankly it is my considered opinion that your "compassion" for the Gazans is not genuine, just a useful tool, to express your hatred of Jews.
I am prone to say that I am an equal opportunity hater, but that is a lie, Jews are not a threat to me, but Christians and Muslims, well they are. Christians immediately, Islam down the road, but both are intolerant, triumphalist, bigoted, exclusionary, misogynistic and homophobic screeds and I have absolutely no use for either. They won't let others live in peace and are malicious as a result.
Judaism on the other hand, well Israel has more human rights than even America, Israel, more diversity, more equal rights, but they have one problem, Netanyahu and the Israeli right, both are brethren of Trump and the MAGAts.
Lisa how about treaties? Do they count? The League of Nations, the Picot agreement, four major wars, 13 operations followed and were all won by Israel. This was all to hold on to the measly bit of land the size of New Jersey the Allied powers gave them in 1948. Should we give back America to the Indians? It's older than the League of Nations.
What America did to the Indians and the Blacks are ongoing atrocities along the same lines as murderous Iz/US has treated and continues to treat the people of Palestine.
First you accept the word of HAMAS as to numbers. Shame on you. You lack critical thinking skills,and.or are willingly gullible.
Second every dead Gazan is the responsibility of HAMAS. They brought this down on their own people, and worse they are using them as human shields, because they know full well, that there are suckers in the west who don't think, or can't think,and believe their lies and propaganda.
I've seen the videos, of HAMAS and the IDF, I know what destruction is being visited on Gaza and all of it is laid in the laps of HAMAS.
If they hadn't flown out of the strip on paragliders, boats, motorcycles and slaughter those babies and toddler, raped and murder women, elderly and disabled, and hauled back over 200 Jews as hostages, none of this would have happened.
Blame HAMAS for using i's own people and hostages as human shields.
The stupid assholes, like Sinwar underestimated the Jews, The Jews under public pressure released 1,000 terrorists for 1 IDF soldier, giving HAMAS the idea that if they multiplied it by 200 they could get the Jews to lay down like logs on the road.
You show your true colors with this comment. You favor 20X retribution over justice as a proper responce. In engineering we call that positive feedback in a system. Positive feedback results in a system that latches up into one that is one-sided, depending on which side happens to be the strongest in the final battle. The tinyest incident can errupt into war in a system governed by positive feedback. Currently Israel has been had the strongest since the initial battle, and it has always settled the issue with positive feedback, meaning excessive retribution.
Human justice stipulates that all people should have equal opportunity. That only happens in a system where negative feedback governs the outcome of conflict. Negative feedback essentially works to de-escalate the conflict, and justice is the way. Justice means that all parties for the most part that the solution is fair to both sides. Minor incidents don't escalate when negative feedback is involved. That is why Jesus said turn the other cheek. Being able to say and do such a thing is why mere humans might say he was as a 'God'.
The Gaza Health Ministry lowered that number by quite a bit.
If you wish to quote Hamas numbers. By all means do so, that is your perogative.
But also Stand up and say as Hamas stated, that no rapes occurred on Oct 7th, No Decapitations Occured on Oct 7th , No babies were burnt in their cribs.....
Lee Markland, since you are so engaged in this discussion, would you please explain who is the HAMAS entity that the Israeli government with the approval of the US government and the world Jewish community, decided to obliterate. Assuming that innocently you, as the Israeli and US government, believe that you will be able to kill every HAMAS person, I would like to offer a different perspective. HAMAS is the idea of free Palestine, is the dream of every Palestinian of having their own country. Please look, for an instance, at this nefarious invasion from the Palestinian point of view; you will see that their dream is similar to the one that you imposed on them in 1948.
William Rosa. Your comment is a statement in the guise of a question. Quite transparent and thus unanswerable.
Regardless of your white washing of HAMAS, it is an unconscionable, murderous, bigoted organization populated by men of the same ilk.
HAMAS and Islamic jihad, slaughtered infants, children, the elderly, disabled and raped and murdered women.. up front and personal, then carted hostages back to Gaza on stolen vehicles and motorcycles.
The IDF has not. What has happened in Gaza is no diffrent than the allies carpet bombing of Germany and the dead Gazans are collateral damage, courtesy of the Cowardly HAMAS, who are using their people as human shields.
And these anti humans are those whom you defend and on whose side you stand.
The talking points that you use to, I guess, justify Israeli' actions against innocent and unarmed Palestinians have been used and abused by the US media as well as the silence of the Jewish community; thus, they are empty, hypocritical and above all dishonest. I'm not defending HAMAS, I'm speaking on behalf of the voiceless Palestinians. Since, according to you, the US media and your Israeli sources, HAMAS went into Israel killed and kidnapped 2000+ people, Israel have the right to invade the strip, kill over 30 thousand innocent people (about 15k children), destroyed their house and businesses and starved to death the rest of them, so Israel and it's people can maintain their standard of living which by the way its higher that in many US states. Is this scenario what you are trying to justify? I believe that finally, super late but better than never, the international community is beginning to realize the magnitude of the Jewaish state action.
It's not a matter of talking about the Israeli people that lost their lives; the question is why genocide people that where expel from their land, their hose and farm taken away and locked them in a prison like territory 100% controled by the Israel. What is your proposal for the Palestinian people after 80+ years of colonial occupation? What they should do satisfy the thirst of of domination, humiliation and oppression of the Israeli state? Was killing the Palestinian children a "collateral damage," as you call it, or a plan to annex whatever is left of their homeland? Please don't tell me that the Jewish people were there before, because I will have to remind you that the native Americans were here before you and me and I don't remember a single initiative coming from the Jewish community to return to them their land.
The Jewish people, just because of their experience with genocide, should be much more careful, responsible and above open to other people plight for dignity, peace, security, food and being able to raise their children in the sanctity of their home. I really would like you feel offended more than upset with historical facts that can't be modified by you or the Jewish nation.
William there is only one group responsble for all of the shit that is happening in Gaza,and that is HAMAS. Period.
If the cowards who hide behind their people and hostages had surrendered or captured, then nothing would have happened.
Blame the right parties, and condemn HAMAS for their cowardice and inhumanity. At least the IDF is not raping women, and murdering babies, infants, toddlers, the elderly and disabled as a matter of policy and up front and personal at that.
There is a difference between cold blooded murder and rape, and collateral damage. HAMAS is responsible for both, cold blooded murder and collateral damage.
For the hundredth time, what is happening in Gaza is not genocide, and you should know better, misuse of the word genocide does violence and robs it of all meaning.
There is no fucking way that Israel could genocide Arabs or Muslims, and the people who live in Gaza and the west bank are Arabs and part of the Ummah, the world wide community of Muslims, whose loyalty to their host countries is questioned, as they are first and foremost loyal to Islam.
And I don't believe in dual citizenship anyway, a person can not be loyal to two nations or religions, Imagine a Christian Muslim, mind you. Goes to Mosque on Friday, prays to Allah fivetimes a day and on Sunday goes to Mass and receives the Eucharist after confessing on Saturday and saying hail Mary's and Padre Nuestra's.
They were offered their own country at least twice: in 1948 and again with the Oslo accords. They turned both down. They dont want a country, they want the whole thing. I’m not making this up. Read the Hamas charter.
Lisa, who says so? Where are their deeds of ownership. The JNF holds theirs. There was no such country called Palestine, except in Biblical times and you probably know that. They were part of the Ottoman Empire. You are not supporting the Gazans with your alternative facts. You are just expressing your hatred for Zionists in particular and all Jews in general. Jews throughout the ages ever Since Paul of biblical times ., the first antisemite, began his new Christian religion, churches have preached their hatred of Jews. Pogroms in Europe and the Middle East were the result, culminating in the Holocaust. It's people like you that are responsible for making our Jewish youth attending schools of higher learning a living hell. Your ignorance is only exceeded by your Jew hatred!
It was actually not their land. Arab land owners owned their land. Most farmers were only tenant farmers. The Arab land owners sold land to the early Zionists, who paid for the land and therefore owned it. The tenant farmers could have purchased their land but the didn’t
Hamas is not the Idea of a Free Palestine. Its about the continuation of the work of the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem Al Husseini and Adolph Hitler, the co conspirators in their plan to eradicate the jews.
Also William, Lee imposed nothing, Unless of course your saying Lee is one of the Architects of the Balfour Declaration?
Lee - this link is from the nytimes magazine recently. i don't know enough about the history of palestine/israel and am trying to educate myself. i would value your opinion.
It is my bed time, and I am tired, I looked at the site, and don't have much to say. Except this,with which I agree: In 1920, we speak about Jews and Arabs. It’s only in 1948 that the Arabs become Palestinians and the Jews become Israelis.
The Arab in the conversation tried to a contra argument, that the Arabs who lived in the Ottoman satrapy, had a Palestinian identity. I doubt that seriously, most if not all were settled Bedouins who had no national identity as there was no nation called Palestine, it is like saying that the pre revolutionary colonists of America considered themselves American.
They didn't they were British. Paul Revere didn't cry "The British are coming, because he and everyone else was British, he said "the Redcoats were coming, actually he never got to Concord - Lexington, he was stopped by a British patrol, and it was Samuel Prescott which actually made it to Concord
I can add to it,how the PM of Britain, Lord Balfour who was mired in the War, was approached by Lord Sykes and the Zionist Leadership that if he promised the Jews a homeland, then they would set world Jewry to support the war.
Up to that time, the Jews in America were opposed to the war, they were pacifist.
Water under the dam though, we can argue history back to the supposed Exodus, which I don't believe, that is another story.
I find I have to constantly bring up the Muslim Arab attack on Israel, because Arabs keep crying nagba, which is a catastrophe that they caused, just like HAMAS has caused this catastrophe.
There is one big difference between HAMAS and Islamic Jihad and the IDF, the slaughter of Jews by HAMAS and IJ, was up front and personal, they took pleasure, especially raping Jewish women.
What is happening in Gaza is collateral damage, not up front not personal, and the IDF are not raping Muslim women.
What is happening in Gaza is no different than the allies carpet bombing Germany in WWII.
Collateral damage happens in war. Was is hell, but it was brought on by the inhuman and animal acts of HAMAS and IJ., just as Hitler, Mussolini and Tojo brought hell on the Germans, Italians and Japanese.
Lee - thank you for your thoughts. i do agree with Lisa that if the colonial mentality had been replaced by buying the Palestinian land, much of the conflict might have been avoided. that colonial mentality by right wing israelis in the west bank will perpetuate the conflict interminably. It just also occurred to me that if the Jewish leaders of that time had just for a second considered what they had just been through (the Holocaust), just the smallest amount of empathy for the Palestinians could have prevented all this carnage. On the other hand, trauma such as they experienced (and had experienced for 2000 years) affected all their perceptions, as trauma has been shown to do to the human brain. It's too much to ponder.
That is not what Lisa Said Paul, and you evidently haven't read my comment(s).
The Jews in the 1920's and 1930's did in fact buy the land, but the Arabs believe that the land is sacred to Muslims, and the Jews did what the Arabs haven't done in thousands of years, and make the desert bloom, they also cleaned up Jerusalem, which Mark Twain described as a garbage dump.
Embarrassed by the Jews and envious, 6 months after the UN declared Israel a state, the Arabs invaded with the intent of committing genocide, instead a handful of Jews whipped their asses.
And to secure their country, they did what all countries have done, including the United States, and that is take land, to expand their boundaries.
The Arabs, being religiously motivated, and thus insane, never learned their lesson and came back again and again, in 1967, 1967, 1973, 2006, 2014, and Oct 7th, each time trying to obliterate the Jews (genocide), each time they failed, each time Israel took more land to secure it's borders .
The problem Paul is the Muslim Arabs. despite the attempts of Arabs to commit genocide of the Jews. There are 2 million Arab citizens of Israel with voting rights and they have even served in the Knesset. Show me one Muslim country that has 1/6th of their population as Jews or even Christians. Most Muslim countries and there are 57 of them have no Jews, and if they do they number about 100. Egypt has three. Iran maybe 200, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan,Pakistan, Libya - none. Malaysia and Indonesia maybe 100.
I am a progressive, an atheist, and all religion's are hostile to me. And all religions on Earth are patriarchal and misogynistic, none more so than Islam.
LIsa - this link is from the nytimes magazine recently. i don't know enough about the history, and am trying to educate myself. i would value your opinion.
Paul, thanks for the link. I think it is a very balanced discussion and history. My take is that it was a mistake to create a Jewish state in a place that already had the Palestinian people living their for centuries and cultivating the land. No one should be forced off their land, much less without compensation. (The exception might have been in part of Germany, but the horrors of the Holocaust would have made that too frightening for the survivors, I can only imagine.) If Jewish people were going to live in Palestine, it would have been much more appropriate if they had bought land and homes there and lived peacefully with their neighbors in one state with complete equality for everyone. The two state concept could possibly have worked if the land could have been fairly divided and if the original residents were willing to agree. Apparently in 1969 the PLO offered this solution, which to me was generous, but it was rejected by Israel. Israel has treated the Palestinians in the most cruel way, culminating in the current massacre and starvation, and the destruction of nearly all valuable structures, i.e. hospitals, universities, mosques, housing, schools. The thought that this trillion dollars worth of damage and the torture and murder of these people can just be rebuilt and the survivors live happily ever after as two states is absurd. I believe Israel's intention is to rid the area of Palestinians and take all the land and natural resources. And the US and the UK will continue to fund it.
Lisa, thanks for feedback. Buying the land from the Palestinians would have gone against all the "principles" of British colonialism. The Israelis continue this model in the West bank, perpetuating injustice which will only result in more violence in the short and long term.
"Paul, thanks for the link. I think it is a very balanced discussion and history. My take is that it was a mistake to create a Jewish state in a place that already had the Palestinian people living there for centuries and cultivating the land."
Except the Jews who numbered 900,000 forcibly removed from their lands in the Middle East and forced to live in tents. If not for Israel becoming a state, these Jews would still be in tents. You leave that bit of history out of your comment to Paul. You also refuse to accept that in the late 1800's and early 1900's the Jewish National fund and other like org. bought thousands of acres of swamp and arid desert land rom Sheik's only too glad to get rid of it. These org. still hold the deeds to this land. You also ignore that Palestinians were not the only people that were part of the Ottoman Empire and were NOT the only people living in the Middle East!
This is Lisa H comment who you seem to accept without hesitation. Here's my reply.
"Paul, thanks for the link. I think it is a very balanced discussion and history. My take is that it was a mistake to create a Jewish state in a place that already had the Palestinian people living there for centuries and cultivating the land."
Except the Jews who numbered 900,000 forcibly removed from their lands in the Middle East and forced to live in tents. If not for Israel becoming a state, these Jews would still be in tents. You leave that bit of history out of your comment to Paul. You also refuse to accept that in the late 1800's and early 1900's the Jewish National fund and other like org. bought thousands of acres of swamp and arid desert land rom Sheik's only too glad to get rid of it. These org. still hold the deeds to this land. You also ignore that Palestinians were not the only people that were part of the Ottoman Empire and were NOT the only people living in the Middle East!
Your ignorance with regards to the history of this tragedy , is beyond the pale. Please refrain from comments with regards to theft or rape, these comments minimize the suffering that has ensued, to every one involved in the latest episode of this ongoing saga.
1) The Palestinians were offered a homeland in 1948, and multiple times after. 2) For the most part, they left British-occupied Palestine at the urging of Arab leaders in preparation for a war. 3) There has been a Jewish presence in "Palestine" for 3,000 years or more. 4) The U.N. created a Jewish state in '47- '48. No one came and colonized anything 5) Palestinians don't want a state UNLESS it means the elimination of the Jewish state. Be careful. Their ideology is an attack on Western values in general, not just on Israel, not just on Jews. The West in general. 6) The Palestinians and their terrorist leadership are responsible for their current predicament. Hamas wanted this famine, this destruction, this death because it's good for their PR. This is the truth.
Please, read Ilan Pappe book about the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians. You will understand exactly what happened. It is just not fair to throw accusations and try to justify the atrocities against Palestinians.
I think he/she, (as Robin can be either gender/sex), just meant that Palestine's LEADERSHIP desperately wants death and famine for their publicity . . . just like a certain morbidly obese dementia-case wants an economic crash in 'America! Facist tyrants do not care AT ALL about "their people."
Anyone can write a book, about anything. The onus is on the reader to use critical thinking skills, and have some knowledge before jumping on a bandwagon.
If I read all of the books, that some body on substack wanted me to read,I wouldn't be able to do anything else, Rauid, Just bcause someone wrote a book, doesn't mean that their is truth in the book.
It amazes me how Israel is held to different standards. During WWII thousands of German Children died. If there was a ceasefire, the third Reich would have taken over the world.
I suppose if someone is antisemitic it could seem that way. Other allies didn’t have 6 million of their people slaughtered either. At least not that I’m aware of.
And whenever any civilians are killed especially children it is never right and it is immoral. The whole reason we have the ICJ and strict humanitarian rules is because of WW11. Have you looked at any of the images of a Palestinians in really time as these atrocities are committed for all the world to see. Have you seen the traumatized children desperately looking for their dead parents. Or mothers and fathers holding their dead babies. These people are innocent and defenseless and trapped.
World War II was an actual war, with armies on both sides. Israel - Palestine is a David vs Goliath situation, with Israel having the 4th strongest army in the world, and Hamas numbering at most 25,000 resistance fighters using fairly primitive weapons.
Israel is making war on the civilian population not Hamas, as can be seen by the death toll. Starving a civilian population, bombing hospitals and denying medical care are all war crimes. Palestinian children are starving to death now, and will be followed by the elderly and everybody else if this doesn't stop soon. Thus the world wide revulsion against Israel. Anybody who thinks this is going to make Israel safer isn't thinking straight.
Why,? Why do i need to defer to someone elses opinion, for that is all most of these books are, just elaborate justifications for someones opinion.
I am 85, have read thousands of books in my life, the only fiction were the classics like the Pathfinder, Les Miserable, a Tale of Two Cities and all of CharlesDickens works.
I've forgottenmore than you will ever learn, and I certainly don't need to spend the precious little time I have remaining on trying to digest some else's opinion.
I have my own opinions, well studied, and well informed thank you.
Here is the Amazon summary of the referenced book, Ilan Pappe's "The Ethnic Cleansing of the Palestinians":
"Between 1947 and 1949, over 400 Palestinian villages were deliberately destroyed, civilians were massacred and around a million men, women, and children were expelled from their homes at gunpoint.
Denied for almost six decades, had it happened today it could only have been called 'ethnic cleansing'. Decisively debunking the myth that the Palestinian population left of their own accord in the course of this war, Ilan Pappe offers impressive archival evidence to demonstrate that, from its very inception, a central plank in Israel’s founding ideology was the forcible removal of the indigenous population. Indispensable for anyone interested in the current crisis in the Middle East."
The Palestinians were living on land they had lived on for literally thousands of years, as well. They were populating the land there, descendants of people who lived there for millennia, people who remained after Rome drove out the Jewish religion, including leaders and a great many but not all the people, back around 70CE.
That land was partitioned without the assent of Palestinian people who had lived there for generations and generations. The colonizers were THE BRITISH {after they took over from THE TURKS] , and they created that partition of the land because the rest of the world was NOT willing to accept a large influx of Jewish refugees from Europe whose lives had been upended and destroyed by decades of Pogroms and rampant anti-Semitism in the Holocaust. Jews were desperate for a safe place to be. They felt a connection to Palestine {the ancient Judea}, and had been relocating there for many years, living beside Palestinians whose families had been there since Roman times, as well.
But, the Euro-centric world was being racist with the partition, and Jews and Palestinians were both put behind the eight ball. THAT is the truth.
I thought there was a chance, some twenty or thirty years ago to work out two states that would be accepted by Jews and Palestinians, but allowing the settlements in the West Bank to become giant cities with private roads that Palestinians couldn’t even drive on, much less become residents of the “settlements,” well, that became a nearly insurmountable “facts on the ground” impediment.
It’s still going to be damned hard to resolve how to provide self-determination for Palestinians along with security and stability for the ongoing state of Israel, ending this monstrous bombing while also getting rid of the likes of HAMAS that deals nothing but more hatred and death into the mix. Finding common ground to build a modicum of trust to carry people through — that’s needed, but how to do it…
But, whatever the outcome, Netanyahu must be brought to STOP making everything there worse. He must stop the bombing and allow food and medical aid safely into Gaza.
Gross simplification with some truths, but you leave out so much. Blaming Israel from the "get go" is unfair as there had been much sympathy for the millions of Jews slaughtered by Hitler. Palestinians and Jews had already lived in the land, and there was plenty of unoccupied land. The land the UN gave for establishment of Israel was the worst--all desert. And before the actual establishment (one day before), Palestinians attacked the Israelis. And so it began...many if not all Palestinians have never wanted to recognize Israel, though Israel was only one of numerous countries created by world decree in aftermath of WWI/WWIi (Jordan for instance). Add to that the numerous times Israel was attacked (Gaza was occupied by Egypt originally) and then took in area from where the threat came (Gaza, West Bank).
Top that off with unwillingness of Muslims to share
Jerusalem (which acoording to UN was to be jointly administered), the spiritual capitol of both Jews, Christians, and Muslims (though for Muslims it is really second to Mecca) and you have recipe for resentment, hatred, and fight for more land. Blaming the current US administration for all of this is preposterous--Biden and co. are having to undo years of bad US policy (basically ALL of the years GOP administrations have been in charge).
Yes, Biden needs to reign in Netanyahu, but it is an uphill and treacherous climb, with many both foreign and domestic hoping for (and trying to sabotage) failure.
I actually don’t blame Israel “from the get go.” I recognize why it exists, though I have some issues with how the solution of a homeland for the Jewish people was handled, I wholly SUPPORT its continued existence. With a reasonable solution for the Palestinian people now, too.
One can look at history and trace a line to a lot of places to put “blame,” but people have suffered, and sufffered, and suffered, and I hope to see it stop.
I recognize there’s way too much energy put into sabotaging any decency.
I have heard the calls for Hamas finding their way to celebrate life instead of death. From both Israeli peace activists AND Palestinian peace activists.
The view has to be how to address all the people living between the river and the sea. There are so many hurting.
The Holocaust was absolutely horrific. Innocent Palestinian children had nothing to do with the Holocaust. We are focusing on what is going on now. Netanyahu has been crystal clear he wants to kill all Palestinians
Yes, but in the aftermath of the Holocaust there was a desire for displaced Jews to return to their spiritual homeland (Palestine) rather than to the countries where they had been persecuted, imprisoned, and killed. That outcry was felt worldwide and led to the creation of Israel.
Do you know why the land was originally named “Palestine”? Jews were forced off of the land, and their artifacts were buried underground to make it look like they never lived there. To add further insult, the land was named Palestine after their enemies, the Philistines. If you go to Israel, you can see the uncovered earth covered in clear plastic to show the original Jewish settlement.
You must be reading a different map. Look at the original UN proposal--it included literally all of the unpopulated land, largely desert, and separated
in multiple places by Palestinian land, as well as being far from Jarusalem (although Jarusalem was to be administered by the UN initially.
Suppose you buy a house and are forced out as someone steals your home. While you are gone, someone else moves in. Whose house is it? This conflict is not as clear cut as what Americans did to Native Americans, but the two state solution appears to be the best answer.
A lot of them are exactly that, yes. Some descended from just people living there who continued to do so with whatever beliefs they might have had or developed … as well as people who migrated there, because that what humans do on this planet … we migrate.
My distant Y-DNA ancestry is Norse. The first records of my family appear in Switzerland in the 15th century. Then to the Duchy of Wurttemburg during the 30 Years' War (land-starved Switzerland exported mercenaries). Then to land-rich central Nebraska, where people know how to pronounce my name.
There were at least 3 major Jewish terrorist groups operating in Palestine in 1948 (Irgun, headed by Menachem Begin, was one of them), mainly removing Palestinians from their home so Jewish families could move in, along with fighting Palestinian resistance. It was in no way a peaceful takeover. Read "The Lemon Tree".
When I was an English teacher, I once had a Palestinian student who told me that
his grandfather had been a prosperous businessman in "the Palestinian Territory."
One day in 1948, his granfather answered the door to be confronted by Israeli soldiers who demanded that he collect his family, leave all his belongings, and leave his home. That day, the family moved to Jordan, then later came to the US.
How many jewish settlements were razed? Completely.
It becomes he said she said, and the ever popular whataboutisim, we were here first, no we were , its our land , no its not, its ours. And so on and so on ad nauseum.
Think of Daffy Duck fighting with Donald Duck over the Genie Lamp.
cuz the UN "created a Jewish state" - how does that make it all right? what if the UN decided to create a whatever-state in your homeland? A "Jewish presence" for 3000 years makes a sudden influx of millions of Euro and US Jews shoving the native-born aside is okay? Hamas is evil. Does that make even greater body count by Israel okay? Palestinians were "offered a homeland" in their country? Wow.
Weren't the Jews there before Palestine? Jews were forced out of their homeland hundreds of years ago. Are the Jews not the indigenous people of that region?
I respectfully disagree with your dissertation on the above. #1) the offering to the Palestinian people gave them the worst and Israeli's the best so it was declined. #2) the Palestinians were told to leave the area to prevent being killed and they could return when Britan got things settled #3) there were Jews in the area of Palestine and they lived peacefully with Palestinians. #4) Land was taken from people that had thriving businesses, orchards and homes no matter who decided to take the land #5) Palestinians want their homes back.
Not everyone in the world follows a judeo Christian belief. My husband's father and Mother were those people that lost everything...they were refugees until they got their 1st citizenship here. Most of those in Israel now should not even be there if you follow Judea christianity..they are not Hebrew. The problem now is Netanyahu wants the oil that has been found in the sea near Gaza...how do think Americans would act if the roles were reversed?
I respectfully disagree: the Palestinians rejected all Jews on their land, the Palestinians did not live peacefully with the Jews, there were many programs and murders and the Jews were kicked out of every Arab state. That was ethnic cleansing. The Arabs that stayed are Israeli Arabs with full rights including voting and there are Israeli Arab doctors, lawyers and Supreme Court judges. The Jews want their homes back in the Arab lands. Where were the voices when they were kicked out? BTW, Israeli Arabs do not want to live in a Palestinian state. They are happy with where they are.
Thank you for showing us the impact to your family. Also news is about oil found off Gaza - that does give Netanyahu a huge reason to go after it. That also explains why he might have let Oct 7th happen- to get support to attack.
Robin Alexander preposterously writes that "no one came and colonized anything." Have you not heard of the 1916 Sykes-Picot Agreement that divided the Middle East (including Palestine) between Great Britain and France?
My mistake. I meant to say the Jews did not “colonize” anything. Yes of course. The actual colonization was done by powerful western entities, the ottomans , and if you go back far enough the Muslim Caliphate.
There would be no problem had not the Arabs tried to obliterate (genocide) the Jews in 1948, not having learned a lesson, they kept coming back again and again, like the insane religious nuts that they are, 1956, 1967,1973, 2006, 2014, Oct 7th, they get their asses handed to them each time,. each time they lose territory, they never learn.
That is because Islam is a nation of Martyrs, and martyrs are glorified, not mourned, and HAMAS said it a month ago, they will never stop, they will keep coming back and send martyrs to paradise (but never, ever the leaders).
There were less that half that living in the region in 1948. There are two million Levantine, Muslim Arab-speakers living as citizens of Israel now. Where is your logic and math. (Please show all work!)
If you put fish in a fish tank, the population will limit themselves to the size of the fish tank, but humans, or at least some sexually obsessed cultures will not, they just breed and breed until the space can no longer support them, they the dam breaks.
I live on an island of some 55 square miles, the deer here have no natural predators, without predators they become pests, but also the deer population is so large that they became sick and diseased.
When the deer population becomes so large that it is a hazard to itself, the county give out hunting permits, and even pay landowners $1.000 to permit hunters on their land to cull the herd.
It sounds horrible. It got me, because I had a family that munched on my lawn, and one doe we called apple, because she would take an apple from us.
The emotional me objected, and I will not allow hunting on my property, but the rational mind knows that the curd has to be culled for the safety of the entire population, because a diseased buck can wipe out an entire population.
The problem is the synergy between biology and hormones and religious imperatives to go forth and breed, thus to overpower the world through numbers.
What can't be achieved via the sword or politics can be achieved by fecundity.
I point doubters to the Cult of Rome,which bans abortion and contraception.
Such bans are not necessary in a cult where access and familiarity with women is restricted and prohibited, and thus there is an overload of testosterone and semen when the dam breaks......... marriage and/or rape
When and if all the hostages are released Israel will go nuclear! The devastation we see now will be inconsequential to what it will be after their release.
Let’s not forget who started this war. It was Hummas! They brutally killed innocent children and raped and mutilated women. Now they are hiding and using the Palestinians as human shields. They don’t care anything about the Palestinians people. They only care about wiping out Israel.
Yes, releasing the remaining hostages and announcing a full and unconditional surrender. I do wonder why the elected government of Gaza, Hamas, is not providing food and medical supplies to help their own people.
Hamas does not care about their own people. They were given concrete to build shelter for Palestinians. Instead they built tunnels to attack Israelis. They knew exactly what would come from their October 7 attack on Israel, too, and they are hoping for more Palestinian deaths to win the propaganda war. They have stolen supplies from the people, shot missiles from civilian areas, and repeatedly use the Palestinians as human shields. There is no love or concern for the people. Their only wish is to kill Jews. That is the harsh fact of who Hamas is!
Yes, Humas started this war and all they care about is the genocide of the Jewish people. They will stop at nothing until this is accomplished which is why they must be destroyed.
Darn - I came across a great meme, but I can't find it right now; something about how when your aid is being distributed by terrorists, they are often too busy to do the job. Sadly true.
Listen the fact is, these people aren't stupid. If they wanted to create a decent life for their people they could have. Their ideology is not about that. Period end of story.
Sad, but given my current understanding of Hamas, I believe that assessment is correct. Since Israel has apparently agreed to the terms of the currently proposed ceasefire, we’ll see if Hamas also will agree.
Long past that point, most of the hostages are probably dead.
Iran acheived its goal through Hamas, meaning Hamas scuttled the the Saudi/ Israel deal. The long term goal of the destruction of Israel is the Ultimate Goal, and to kill every jew, and Infidels worldwide.
No more attacks on civilians in Gaza. Food/water/peace is what the people need now. The Palestinian people NEED/DESERVE a homeland also.
They had one and it was stolen and raped.
Not really, the Arabs tried to obliterate the Jews in 1948, they failed, again and again they tried, failed each time and the result is that they lost land each time.
They took their homes and land from them. Ancient history doesn't dictate modern land ownership anywhere else on Earth.
Here we go for the umpteenth time.I will try to educamate you.
There have always been Jews in that forsaken desert, even while the Ottoman Turks ruled it.
In the 1920's Theodore Herzl, toured Europe recruiting families to relocate to what was then Turkish controlled Palestine. The emigrees purchased the land from the inhabitants, what was basically an infertile land with some olive and orange groves, soon bloomed when the Jews built kibttuz and made the desert bloom.
Mark Twain visited Jerusalem and wrote that he found it a garbage dump. The Jews cleaned up the mess the Arabs had made.
In May 1948 Israel was declared a nation by the UN, in Nov 1948, the Arab neighbors, Jew hating Arab neighbors, shamed by what a handful of Jews had done to what was fallow desert, fell on the Jews to commit genocide. The outnumbered Jews beat the Arabs and confiscated land to extend their boundaries and try to ensure their safety.
This the "Palestinians" call the naqba or catastrophe, it was brought on by themselves, their Muslim and Arab brothers.
They didn't learn the lesson then, and came back again and again, 1956, 1967, 1973, 2006, 2014, Oct 7th and each time the lost and each time they lost more land.
Do you know what Muslim Arabs live in enclaves? Because they won't be good neighbors and live peaceful with the Jews.
Despite that, there are 2 million Arab citizens of Israel, they have the full rights of a citizen including the vote and have even served in the Knesset.
Now you tell me this. There are 57 Islamic ethnostates, many without any Jews, some with as little as 100 Jews, and none of them are welcome citizens with full rights and the vote, no Jew citizen of a Muslim state serves or has served in the government. Islamic governments aren't real democracies either. They are theocracies, where religion rules.
I heard the Foreign Minister of Malaysia on Christiane Amanpour and Co, he claimed that Malyasia was a democracy with human rights for all,but when Chrtiane asked him about LGBT, he obfuscated, see LGBT have no rights and are persecuted in Malaysia,and blamed it on the religion.
And I have just wasted 15 minutes typing this.
Plz sincere question- Gaza has FREE utilities- paid by Israelis, coastline property all around, universities, hospitals, ancient archives/landmarks, modern tech- so why have Palestinians not thrived as a vacation destination as Israel has? Egypt and Dubai have ( so do not blame oppressive religion or govt)
Why no nation changing profit in exporting unique produce or foods or services as Israel also has created?
You don't want me to blamean oppressive religion or gov't, but HAMAS is the governing authority in Gaza, and it is anything but liberal.
Dubai is zoned, within Muslim zones, Sharia prevails and women wear abaya's, and are not considered humans, not like men. In the money making zones, they have relaxed standards for westerners.
Not much different than Saudi Arabia. Saudi's consider the peninsula (Arabia) to be sacred Islamic ground, it is after all where Mecca, which is sacred to Muslims, and Medina, where Muhammad lived and died, and where he had 600 Jews of the tribe Banu Quaryza (tribe and banu are redundant, as Banu means tribe), beheaded 6 at a time.
The Saudi's quickly discovered that they needed western expertise, technology and resources to pump oil,, so they had to hire kufr (kaffir or infidels), but it was sacrilege to have kufr living on sacred Islamic soil.
The solution is to desacralize plots of l;ands, surround them with walls, and call them compounds, and let the kufr do what they want inside the compounds, which the Saudi's consider foreign territory.
On the other hand, HAMAS rules Gaza with an iron fist, they had one election, in 2006, and no election since. It doesn't even put on the pretense of a democracy, like Putin does.
Gaza is an occupied land kept in subjugation by Israel. Israel controls everything that goes in and out, and allowed only minimal food, water and medical even before Oct. 7. Poverty was extreme, people could not move about freely due to checkpoints everywhere, even fishing in the Mediterranean was severely restricted. Child beggars were in the streets. Palestinians' land was stolen and they were driven from their homes, often in the middle of the night. Israel imprisoned thousands , including children, without charges or trial. The ones that are tried are done in military courts where the conviction rate is over 99%. Gaza was considered the largest open air prison on earth. This is all before Oct. 7.
The nature of your comments reveals the fantasies American Jews have about Israel and its treatment of the Indigenous population, a testament to the success of the enormous Israeli propaganda machine.
One word. Corruption
Interesting history lesson Lee, although quite over the top in racism toward Arabs/Muslims which is never diplomatically helpful. Seems to me it's 2024 and the situation is completely out of control due to the continued slaughter by Israel - risking a much bigger conflagration in the Mideast.
Neither Arab or Muslim is a race. Arabs come in all shades and colors, from blue eyed, blond hair to black. Islam is a religion not a race,
And I hold a brief against Islam, the same I hold towards any religion,
I have studied Islam. Have you. Of course not. I have three versions of the Quran, one is the version that Thomas Jefferson have. I've read the hadiths, and the biography of Muhammad by ibn Ishaq which is more than even a Taliban has done. (The name Taliban means student)
It is a god awful inolerant, misogynistic and homophobic religion, and not at all pluralistic, not in it's own land under it's own leadership.
The disaster inGaza is the total responsiblity of HAMAS. And if HAMAS is not eliminated, they will come back for more and more, until all the Jews in Israel are obliterated, It says so in their covenant, and the leadership has said so on TV.
They are a nation of martyrs and martyrs are glorified not mourned,.
Again everything that is happening in Gaza is laid on the lap of the leadrship of HAMAS, it is a belligerent, anti human, religious organization that uses its own people as human shields.
Shame on you, for defending that which is indefensible.
You are exactly right
You wrote everything I would have written. In addition, 850,000 Jews who had lived in Arab countries for generations were forced to leave those Countries . Many settled in the new State of Israel.
“From the river to the sea” the phrase chanted by Palestinian supporters comes directly from the revised Hamas charter, meaning they claim all that land, thus completely
obliterating Israel. They will keep trying to do just that
Ruth, true although my numbers differ slightly. 900,000. They were put in tents. No country at the time would absorb them. When Israel was given their portion of the land that the partition granted them, they were absorbed into the country along with any Arabs that wished to become an Arab/Israeli citizen. That's why they currently represent 20% of Israel's population and are represented by Monsour Abbas in the Knesset, who was a member of the Muslim Brotherhood and graduated from Hebrew University. They have full citizenship and the right to vote. How many Jews live in Arab lands and are represented in their schools of higher learning or represented in their governments. Answer ZERO!
I appreciate your post.
Nice try Lee, Truth is like a poison for people like Lisa.
Hard to beat your reply, Lee.
What was the saying on that old black and white TV show Dragnet.
"The facts ma'am, just the facts"
No blinders, no wishful thinking.
This is the Jewish version of history. The Palestinian version is quite different.
How we were all outraged when Kelly Ann Conway talked about “alternative facts”. Omg! Here we are again…
Of course all sides have their own version. But mine is not the Jewish side, for I am not on the Jewish side.
But you are quite obviously on the Arab side.
By the way there never has been a nation called Palestine. The name described a Roman province that was once populated by Jews.
That's your version. There are others. Your vicious comment to me makes everything you say suspect, if it wasn't already.
I don't have a version. Zionists consider me an antisemite. I have no dog in this fight,and hold the Muslims and right wing Israelis in total disgust.
I know what I know, and I really don't take sides. I am an atheist, former Catholic, and hold all religions in suspicion and disgust.
And I don't adopt an identity based on superficialities or irrelevancies. As a matter of fact I am pretty fed up with humans, and find that my age and infirmities are a blessing.
I have more compassion for animals than I do people, and frankly it is my considered opinion that your "compassion" for the Gazans is not genuine, just a useful tool, to express your hatred of Jews.
I am prone to say that I am an equal opportunity hater, but that is a lie, Jews are not a threat to me, but Christians and Muslims, well they are. Christians immediately, Islam down the road, but both are intolerant, triumphalist, bigoted, exclusionary, misogynistic and homophobic screeds and I have absolutely no use for either. They won't let others live in peace and are malicious as a result.
Judaism on the other hand, well Israel has more human rights than even America, Israel, more diversity, more equal rights, but they have one problem, Netanyahu and the Israeli right, both are brethren of Trump and the MAGAts.
Lisa how about treaties? Do they count? The League of Nations, the Picot agreement, four major wars, 13 operations followed and were all won by Israel. This was all to hold on to the measly bit of land the size of New Jersey the Allied powers gave them in 1948. Should we give back America to the Indians? It's older than the League of Nations.
What America did to the Indians and the Blacks are ongoing atrocities along the same lines as murderous Iz/US has treated and continues to treat the people of Palestine.
And that justifies the killing of 30,000 Palestinians in Gaza?
First you accept the word of HAMAS as to numbers. Shame on you. You lack critical thinking skills,and.or are willingly gullible.
Second every dead Gazan is the responsibility of HAMAS. They brought this down on their own people, and worse they are using them as human shields, because they know full well, that there are suckers in the west who don't think, or can't think,and believe their lies and propaganda.
I've seen the videos, of HAMAS and the IDF, I know what destruction is being visited on Gaza and all of it is laid in the laps of HAMAS.
If they hadn't flown out of the strip on paragliders, boats, motorcycles and slaughter those babies and toddler, raped and murder women, elderly and disabled, and hauled back over 200 Jews as hostages, none of this would have happened.
Blame HAMAS for using i's own people and hostages as human shields.
The stupid assholes, like Sinwar underestimated the Jews, The Jews under public pressure released 1,000 terrorists for 1 IDF soldier, giving HAMAS the idea that if they multiplied it by 200 they could get the Jews to lay down like logs on the road.
I thought you were tired - please go to bed.
You show your true colors with this comment. You favor 20X retribution over justice as a proper responce. In engineering we call that positive feedback in a system. Positive feedback results in a system that latches up into one that is one-sided, depending on which side happens to be the strongest in the final battle. The tinyest incident can errupt into war in a system governed by positive feedback. Currently Israel has been had the strongest since the initial battle, and it has always settled the issue with positive feedback, meaning excessive retribution.
Human justice stipulates that all people should have equal opportunity. That only happens in a system where negative feedback governs the outcome of conflict. Negative feedback essentially works to de-escalate the conflict, and justice is the way. Justice means that all parties for the most part that the solution is fair to both sides. Minor incidents don't escalate when negative feedback is involved. That is why Jesus said turn the other cheek. Being able to say and do such a thing is why mere humans might say he was as a 'God'.
You know Ted. I could care less what you think. I really could.
I have said nothing about retribution, so don't put words in my mouth.
However all criminals should be caught, tried and punished.
Problem is that the criminals who slaughtered innocent Jews, are hiding behind their people and hostages, using them as human shields.
How about showing some umbrage and disgust for these animals and cowards.
What kind of animal uses his own as a human shield?
Revise your numbers please?
The Gaza Health Ministry lowered that number by quite a bit.
If you wish to quote Hamas numbers. By all means do so, that is your perogative.
But also Stand up and say as Hamas stated, that no rapes occurred on Oct 7th, No Decapitations Occured on Oct 7th , No babies were burnt in their cribs.....
Lee Markland, since you are so engaged in this discussion, would you please explain who is the HAMAS entity that the Israeli government with the approval of the US government and the world Jewish community, decided to obliterate. Assuming that innocently you, as the Israeli and US government, believe that you will be able to kill every HAMAS person, I would like to offer a different perspective. HAMAS is the idea of free Palestine, is the dream of every Palestinian of having their own country. Please look, for an instance, at this nefarious invasion from the Palestinian point of view; you will see that their dream is similar to the one that you imposed on them in 1948.
William Rosa. Your comment is a statement in the guise of a question. Quite transparent and thus unanswerable.
Regardless of your white washing of HAMAS, it is an unconscionable, murderous, bigoted organization populated by men of the same ilk.
HAMAS and Islamic jihad, slaughtered infants, children, the elderly, disabled and raped and murdered women.. up front and personal, then carted hostages back to Gaza on stolen vehicles and motorcycles.
The IDF has not. What has happened in Gaza is no diffrent than the allies carpet bombing of Germany and the dead Gazans are collateral damage, courtesy of the Cowardly HAMAS, who are using their people as human shields.
And these anti humans are those whom you defend and on whose side you stand.
Lee Markland,
The talking points that you use to, I guess, justify Israeli' actions against innocent and unarmed Palestinians have been used and abused by the US media as well as the silence of the Jewish community; thus, they are empty, hypocritical and above all dishonest. I'm not defending HAMAS, I'm speaking on behalf of the voiceless Palestinians. Since, according to you, the US media and your Israeli sources, HAMAS went into Israel killed and kidnapped 2000+ people, Israel have the right to invade the strip, kill over 30 thousand innocent people (about 15k children), destroyed their house and businesses and starved to death the rest of them, so Israel and it's people can maintain their standard of living which by the way its higher that in many US states. Is this scenario what you are trying to justify? I believe that finally, super late but better than never, the international community is beginning to realize the magnitude of the Jewaish state action.
It's not a matter of talking about the Israeli people that lost their lives; the question is why genocide people that where expel from their land, their hose and farm taken away and locked them in a prison like territory 100% controled by the Israel. What is your proposal for the Palestinian people after 80+ years of colonial occupation? What they should do satisfy the thirst of of domination, humiliation and oppression of the Israeli state? Was killing the Palestinian children a "collateral damage," as you call it, or a plan to annex whatever is left of their homeland? Please don't tell me that the Jewish people were there before, because I will have to remind you that the native Americans were here before you and me and I don't remember a single initiative coming from the Jewish community to return to them their land.
The Jewish people, just because of their experience with genocide, should be much more careful, responsible and above open to other people plight for dignity, peace, security, food and being able to raise their children in the sanctity of their home. I really would like you feel offended more than upset with historical facts that can't be modified by you or the Jewish nation.
William there is only one group responsble for all of the shit that is happening in Gaza,and that is HAMAS. Period.
If the cowards who hide behind their people and hostages had surrendered or captured, then nothing would have happened.
Blame the right parties, and condemn HAMAS for their cowardice and inhumanity. At least the IDF is not raping women, and murdering babies, infants, toddlers, the elderly and disabled as a matter of policy and up front and personal at that.
There is a difference between cold blooded murder and rape, and collateral damage. HAMAS is responsible for both, cold blooded murder and collateral damage.
For the hundredth time, what is happening in Gaza is not genocide, and you should know better, misuse of the word genocide does violence and robs it of all meaning.
There is no fucking way that Israel could genocide Arabs or Muslims, and the people who live in Gaza and the west bank are Arabs and part of the Ummah, the world wide community of Muslims, whose loyalty to their host countries is questioned, as they are first and foremost loyal to Islam.
And I don't believe in dual citizenship anyway, a person can not be loyal to two nations or religions, Imagine a Christian Muslim, mind you. Goes to Mosque on Friday, prays to Allah fivetimes a day and on Sunday goes to Mass and receives the Eucharist after confessing on Saturday and saying hail Mary's and Padre Nuestra's.
They were offered their own country at least twice: in 1948 and again with the Oslo accords. They turned both down. They dont want a country, they want the whole thing. I’m not making this up. Read the Hamas charter.
It was their land before 1948.They shouldn't have had to be effing "given" anything.
Lisa, who says so? Where are their deeds of ownership. The JNF holds theirs. There was no such country called Palestine, except in Biblical times and you probably know that. They were part of the Ottoman Empire. You are not supporting the Gazans with your alternative facts. You are just expressing your hatred for Zionists in particular and all Jews in general. Jews throughout the ages ever Since Paul of biblical times ., the first antisemite, began his new Christian religion, churches have preached their hatred of Jews. Pogroms in Europe and the Middle East were the result, culminating in the Holocaust. It's people like you that are responsible for making our Jewish youth attending schools of higher learning a living hell. Your ignorance is only exceeded by your Jew hatred!
It was actually not their land. Arab land owners owned their land. Most farmers were only tenant farmers. The Arab land owners sold land to the early Zionists, who paid for the land and therefore owned it. The tenant farmers could have purchased their land but the didn’t
William
Hamas is not the Idea of a Free Palestine. Its about the continuation of the work of the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem Al Husseini and Adolph Hitler, the co conspirators in their plan to eradicate the jews.
Also William, Lee imposed nothing, Unless of course your saying Lee is one of the Architects of the Balfour Declaration?
Lee - this link is from the nytimes magazine recently. i don't know enough about the history of palestine/israel and am trying to educate myself. i would value your opinion.
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/02/01/magazine/israel-founding-palestinian-conflict.html
It is my bed time, and I am tired, I looked at the site, and don't have much to say. Except this,with which I agree: In 1920, we speak about Jews and Arabs. It’s only in 1948 that the Arabs become Palestinians and the Jews become Israelis.
The Arab in the conversation tried to a contra argument, that the Arabs who lived in the Ottoman satrapy, had a Palestinian identity. I doubt that seriously, most if not all were settled Bedouins who had no national identity as there was no nation called Palestine, it is like saying that the pre revolutionary colonists of America considered themselves American.
They didn't they were British. Paul Revere didn't cry "The British are coming, because he and everyone else was British, he said "the Redcoats were coming, actually he never got to Concord - Lexington, he was stopped by a British patrol, and it was Samuel Prescott which actually made it to Concord
I can add to it,how the PM of Britain, Lord Balfour who was mired in the War, was approached by Lord Sykes and the Zionist Leadership that if he promised the Jews a homeland, then they would set world Jewry to support the war.
Up to that time, the Jews in America were opposed to the war, they were pacifist.
That is not mentioned in the wikipedia article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfour_Declaration
Water under the dam though, we can argue history back to the supposed Exodus, which I don't believe, that is another story.
I find I have to constantly bring up the Muslim Arab attack on Israel, because Arabs keep crying nagba, which is a catastrophe that they caused, just like HAMAS has caused this catastrophe.
There is one big difference between HAMAS and Islamic Jihad and the IDF, the slaughter of Jews by HAMAS and IJ, was up front and personal, they took pleasure, especially raping Jewish women.
What is happening in Gaza is collateral damage, not up front not personal, and the IDF are not raping Muslim women.
What is happening in Gaza is no different than the allies carpet bombing Germany in WWII.
Collateral damage happens in war. Was is hell, but it was brought on by the inhuman and animal acts of HAMAS and IJ., just as Hitler, Mussolini and Tojo brought hell on the Germans, Italians and Japanese.
No difference.
Lee - thank you for your thoughts. i do agree with Lisa that if the colonial mentality had been replaced by buying the Palestinian land, much of the conflict might have been avoided. that colonial mentality by right wing israelis in the west bank will perpetuate the conflict interminably. It just also occurred to me that if the Jewish leaders of that time had just for a second considered what they had just been through (the Holocaust), just the smallest amount of empathy for the Palestinians could have prevented all this carnage. On the other hand, trauma such as they experienced (and had experienced for 2000 years) affected all their perceptions, as trauma has been shown to do to the human brain. It's too much to ponder.
That is not what Lisa Said Paul, and you evidently haven't read my comment(s).
The Jews in the 1920's and 1930's did in fact buy the land, but the Arabs believe that the land is sacred to Muslims, and the Jews did what the Arabs haven't done in thousands of years, and make the desert bloom, they also cleaned up Jerusalem, which Mark Twain described as a garbage dump.
Embarrassed by the Jews and envious, 6 months after the UN declared Israel a state, the Arabs invaded with the intent of committing genocide, instead a handful of Jews whipped their asses.
And to secure their country, they did what all countries have done, including the United States, and that is take land, to expand their boundaries.
The Arabs, being religiously motivated, and thus insane, never learned their lesson and came back again and again, in 1967, 1967, 1973, 2006, 2014, and Oct 7th, each time trying to obliterate the Jews (genocide), each time they failed, each time Israel took more land to secure it's borders .
The problem Paul is the Muslim Arabs. despite the attempts of Arabs to commit genocide of the Jews. There are 2 million Arab citizens of Israel with voting rights and they have even served in the Knesset. Show me one Muslim country that has 1/6th of their population as Jews or even Christians. Most Muslim countries and there are 57 of them have no Jews, and if they do they number about 100. Egypt has three. Iran maybe 200, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan,Pakistan, Libya - none. Malaysia and Indonesia maybe 100.
I am a progressive, an atheist, and all religion's are hostile to me. And all religions on Earth are patriarchal and misogynistic, none more so than Islam.
LIsa - this link is from the nytimes magazine recently. i don't know enough about the history, and am trying to educate myself. i would value your opinion.
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/02/01/magazine/israel-founding-palestinian-conflict.html
Paul, thanks for the link. I think it is a very balanced discussion and history. My take is that it was a mistake to create a Jewish state in a place that already had the Palestinian people living their for centuries and cultivating the land. No one should be forced off their land, much less without compensation. (The exception might have been in part of Germany, but the horrors of the Holocaust would have made that too frightening for the survivors, I can only imagine.) If Jewish people were going to live in Palestine, it would have been much more appropriate if they had bought land and homes there and lived peacefully with their neighbors in one state with complete equality for everyone. The two state concept could possibly have worked if the land could have been fairly divided and if the original residents were willing to agree. Apparently in 1969 the PLO offered this solution, which to me was generous, but it was rejected by Israel. Israel has treated the Palestinians in the most cruel way, culminating in the current massacre and starvation, and the destruction of nearly all valuable structures, i.e. hospitals, universities, mosques, housing, schools. The thought that this trillion dollars worth of damage and the torture and murder of these people can just be rebuilt and the survivors live happily ever after as two states is absurd. I believe Israel's intention is to rid the area of Palestinians and take all the land and natural resources. And the US and the UK will continue to fund it.
Lisa, thanks for feedback. Buying the land from the Palestinians would have gone against all the "principles" of British colonialism. The Israelis continue this model in the West bank, perpetuating injustice which will only result in more violence in the short and long term.
Absolutely
Lisa H.
18 hrs ago
"Paul, thanks for the link. I think it is a very balanced discussion and history. My take is that it was a mistake to create a Jewish state in a place that already had the Palestinian people living there for centuries and cultivating the land."
Except the Jews who numbered 900,000 forcibly removed from their lands in the Middle East and forced to live in tents. If not for Israel becoming a state, these Jews would still be in tents. You leave that bit of history out of your comment to Paul. You also refuse to accept that in the late 1800's and early 1900's the Jewish National fund and other like org. bought thousands of acres of swamp and arid desert land rom Sheik's only too glad to get rid of it. These org. still hold the deeds to this land. You also ignore that Palestinians were not the only people that were part of the Ottoman Empire and were NOT the only people living in the Middle East!
This is Lisa H comment who you seem to accept without hesitation. Here's my reply.
"Paul, thanks for the link. I think it is a very balanced discussion and history. My take is that it was a mistake to create a Jewish state in a place that already had the Palestinian people living there for centuries and cultivating the land."
Except the Jews who numbered 900,000 forcibly removed from their lands in the Middle East and forced to live in tents. If not for Israel becoming a state, these Jews would still be in tents. You leave that bit of history out of your comment to Paul. You also refuse to accept that in the late 1800's and early 1900's the Jewish National fund and other like org. bought thousands of acres of swamp and arid desert land rom Sheik's only too glad to get rid of it. These org. still hold the deeds to this land. You also ignore that Palestinians were not the only people that were part of the Ottoman Empire and were NOT the only people living in the Middle East!
I don't subscribe.
But I favor peace over the ever elusive historically based "just" peace.
Your ignorance with regards to the history of this tragedy , is beyond the pale. Please refrain from comments with regards to theft or rape, these comments minimize the suffering that has ensued, to every one involved in the latest episode of this ongoing saga.
1) The Palestinians were offered a homeland in 1948, and multiple times after. 2) For the most part, they left British-occupied Palestine at the urging of Arab leaders in preparation for a war. 3) There has been a Jewish presence in "Palestine" for 3,000 years or more. 4) The U.N. created a Jewish state in '47- '48. No one came and colonized anything 5) Palestinians don't want a state UNLESS it means the elimination of the Jewish state. Be careful. Their ideology is an attack on Western values in general, not just on Israel, not just on Jews. The West in general. 6) The Palestinians and their terrorist leadership are responsible for their current predicament. Hamas wanted this famine, this destruction, this death because it's good for their PR. This is the truth.
Please, read Ilan Pappe book about the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians. You will understand exactly what happened. It is just not fair to throw accusations and try to justify the atrocities against Palestinians.
I think he/she, (as Robin can be either gender/sex), just meant that Palestine's LEADERSHIP desperately wants death and famine for their publicity . . . just like a certain morbidly obese dementia-case wants an economic crash in 'America! Facist tyrants do not care AT ALL about "their people."
They want POWER EXCLUSIVELY.
Anyone can write a book, about anything. The onus is on the reader to use critical thinking skills, and have some knowledge before jumping on a bandwagon.
If I read all of the books, that some body on substack wanted me to read,I wouldn't be able to do anything else, Rauid, Just bcause someone wrote a book, doesn't mean that their is truth in the book.
It amazes me how Israel is held to different standards. During WWII thousands of German Children died. If there was a ceasefire, the third Reich would have taken over the world.
Yes for some strange reason Israel is allowed to do things no other of our allies would do. They have become America’s spoiled child.
What does Israel do, besides fighting for survival, that other allies won't do.
Be careful Carol your bias shows clear.
I suppose if someone is antisemitic it could seem that way. Other allies didn’t have 6 million of their people slaughtered either. At least not that I’m aware of.
And whenever any civilians are killed especially children it is never right and it is immoral. The whole reason we have the ICJ and strict humanitarian rules is because of WW11. Have you looked at any of the images of a Palestinians in really time as these atrocities are committed for all the world to see. Have you seen the traumatized children desperately looking for their dead parents. Or mothers and fathers holding their dead babies. These people are innocent and defenseless and trapped.
And they have their own nuclear weapons they test in the South Atlantic ocean.
World War II was an actual war, with armies on both sides. Israel - Palestine is a David vs Goliath situation, with Israel having the 4th strongest army in the world, and Hamas numbering at most 25,000 resistance fighters using fairly primitive weapons.
Israel is making war on the civilian population not Hamas, as can be seen by the death toll. Starving a civilian population, bombing hospitals and denying medical care are all war crimes. Palestinian children are starving to death now, and will be followed by the elderly and everybody else if this doesn't stop soon. Thus the world wide revulsion against Israel. Anybody who thinks this is going to make Israel safer isn't thinking straight.
Nonthing amazes me about humans. Humans are hypocrisy, duplicity, gullibility, crocodile tears, competing with each other for the title of persecuted.
Double standards are us... It starts early in the family, with parent telling children not do what they do.
Then try reading just one.
Why,? Why do i need to defer to someone elses opinion, for that is all most of these books are, just elaborate justifications for someones opinion.
I am 85, have read thousands of books in my life, the only fiction were the classics like the Pathfinder, Les Miserable, a Tale of Two Cities and all of CharlesDickens works.
I've forgottenmore than you will ever learn, and I certainly don't need to spend the precious little time I have remaining on trying to digest some else's opinion.
I have my own opinions, well studied, and well informed thank you.
Here is the Amazon summary of the referenced book, Ilan Pappe's "The Ethnic Cleansing of the Palestinians":
"Between 1947 and 1949, over 400 Palestinian villages were deliberately destroyed, civilians were massacred and around a million men, women, and children were expelled from their homes at gunpoint.
Denied for almost six decades, had it happened today it could only have been called 'ethnic cleansing'. Decisively debunking the myth that the Palestinian population left of their own accord in the course of this war, Ilan Pappe offers impressive archival evidence to demonstrate that, from its very inception, a central plank in Israel’s founding ideology was the forcible removal of the indigenous population. Indispensable for anyone interested in the current crisis in the Middle East."
https://www.amazon.com/Ethnic-Cleansing-Palestine-Ilan-Pappe/dp/1851685553
The Palestinians were living on land they had lived on for literally thousands of years, as well. They were populating the land there, descendants of people who lived there for millennia, people who remained after Rome drove out the Jewish religion, including leaders and a great many but not all the people, back around 70CE.
That land was partitioned without the assent of Palestinian people who had lived there for generations and generations. The colonizers were THE BRITISH {after they took over from THE TURKS] , and they created that partition of the land because the rest of the world was NOT willing to accept a large influx of Jewish refugees from Europe whose lives had been upended and destroyed by decades of Pogroms and rampant anti-Semitism in the Holocaust. Jews were desperate for a safe place to be. They felt a connection to Palestine {the ancient Judea}, and had been relocating there for many years, living beside Palestinians whose families had been there since Roman times, as well.
But, the Euro-centric world was being racist with the partition, and Jews and Palestinians were both put behind the eight ball. THAT is the truth.
I thought there was a chance, some twenty or thirty years ago to work out two states that would be accepted by Jews and Palestinians, but allowing the settlements in the West Bank to become giant cities with private roads that Palestinians couldn’t even drive on, much less become residents of the “settlements,” well, that became a nearly insurmountable “facts on the ground” impediment.
It’s still going to be damned hard to resolve how to provide self-determination for Palestinians along with security and stability for the ongoing state of Israel, ending this monstrous bombing while also getting rid of the likes of HAMAS that deals nothing but more hatred and death into the mix. Finding common ground to build a modicum of trust to carry people through — that’s needed, but how to do it…
But, whatever the outcome, Netanyahu must be brought to STOP making everything there worse. He must stop the bombing and allow food and medical aid safely into Gaza.
Gross simplification with some truths, but you leave out so much. Blaming Israel from the "get go" is unfair as there had been much sympathy for the millions of Jews slaughtered by Hitler. Palestinians and Jews had already lived in the land, and there was plenty of unoccupied land. The land the UN gave for establishment of Israel was the worst--all desert. And before the actual establishment (one day before), Palestinians attacked the Israelis. And so it began...many if not all Palestinians have never wanted to recognize Israel, though Israel was only one of numerous countries created by world decree in aftermath of WWI/WWIi (Jordan for instance). Add to that the numerous times Israel was attacked (Gaza was occupied by Egypt originally) and then took in area from where the threat came (Gaza, West Bank).
Top that off with unwillingness of Muslims to share
Jerusalem (which acoording to UN was to be jointly administered), the spiritual capitol of both Jews, Christians, and Muslims (though for Muslims it is really second to Mecca) and you have recipe for resentment, hatred, and fight for more land. Blaming the current US administration for all of this is preposterous--Biden and co. are having to undo years of bad US policy (basically ALL of the years GOP administrations have been in charge).
Yes, Biden needs to reign in Netanyahu, but it is an uphill and treacherous climb, with many both foreign and domestic hoping for (and trying to sabotage) failure.
I actually don’t blame Israel “from the get go.” I recognize why it exists, though I have some issues with how the solution of a homeland for the Jewish people was handled, I wholly SUPPORT its continued existence. With a reasonable solution for the Palestinian people now, too.
One can look at history and trace a line to a lot of places to put “blame,” but people have suffered, and sufffered, and suffered, and I hope to see it stop.
I recognize there’s way too much energy put into sabotaging any decency.
I have heard the calls for Hamas finding their way to celebrate life instead of death. From both Israeli peace activists AND Palestinian peace activists.
The view has to be how to address all the people living between the river and the sea. There are so many hurting.
Hamas should be charged with War crimes. And should Netanyahu
I’ll second that
The Holocaust was absolutely horrific. Innocent Palestinian children had nothing to do with the Holocaust. We are focusing on what is going on now. Netanyahu has been crystal clear he wants to kill all Palestinians
If that were true, the 20,000 Arabs living in Israel would be dead.
😄
Yes, but in the aftermath of the Holocaust there was a desire for displaced Jews to return to their spiritual homeland (Palestine) rather than to the countries where they had been persecuted, imprisoned, and killed. That outcry was felt worldwide and led to the creation of Israel.
Do you know why the land was originally named “Palestine”? Jews were forced off of the land, and their artifacts were buried underground to make it look like they never lived there. To add further insult, the land was named Palestine after their enemies, the Philistines. If you go to Israel, you can see the uncovered earth covered in clear plastic to show the original Jewish settlement.
No, it wasn’t all desert. That was supposed to go to the Palestinians.
You must be reading a different map. Look at the original UN proposal--it included literally all of the unpopulated land, largely desert, and separated
in multiple places by Palestinian land, as well as being far from Jarusalem (although Jarusalem was to be administered by the UN initially.
Here:
https://www.un.org/unispal/history/#:~:text=The%20plan%20envisages%20the%20division,Lake%20Success)%2C%20New%20York.
Thank you. Speaking as an American Israei who knows the history and current events, this is one of the best summaries I've seen.
Israel is doing to the Palestinians what our government did to Native Americans by killing them and stealing their land. The American Holocaust.
Suppose you buy a house and are forced out as someone steals your home. While you are gone, someone else moves in. Whose house is it? This conflict is not as clear cut as what Americans did to Native Americans, but the two state solution appears to be the best answer.
The Palestinians descend from Jews who converted forst to Christianity and then to Islam.
A lot of them are exactly that, yes. Some descended from just people living there who continued to do so with whatever beliefs they might have had or developed … as well as people who migrated there, because that what humans do on this planet … we migrate.
{Well, we used to, anyway…}
People migrate...
My distant Y-DNA ancestry is Norse. The first records of my family appear in Switzerland in the 15th century. Then to the Duchy of Wurttemburg during the 30 Years' War (land-starved Switzerland exported mercenaries). Then to land-rich central Nebraska, where people know how to pronounce my name.
There were at least 3 major Jewish terrorist groups operating in Palestine in 1948 (Irgun, headed by Menachem Begin, was one of them), mainly removing Palestinians from their home so Jewish families could move in, along with fighting Palestinian resistance. It was in no way a peaceful takeover. Read "The Lemon Tree".
When I was an English teacher, I once had a Palestinian student who told me that
his grandfather had been a prosperous businessman in "the Palestinian Territory."
One day in 1948, his granfather answered the door to be confronted by Israeli soldiers who demanded that he collect his family, leave all his belongings, and leave his home. That day, the family moved to Jordan, then later came to the US.
And pre 1947
How many jewish settlements were razed? Completely.
It becomes he said she said, and the ever popular whataboutisim, we were here first, no we were , its our land , no its not, its ours. And so on and so on ad nauseum.
Think of Daffy Duck fighting with Donald Duck over the Genie Lamp.
If it wasn't so sad .......
cuz the UN "created a Jewish state" - how does that make it all right? what if the UN decided to create a whatever-state in your homeland? A "Jewish presence" for 3000 years makes a sudden influx of millions of Euro and US Jews shoving the native-born aside is okay? Hamas is evil. Does that make even greater body count by Israel okay? Palestinians were "offered a homeland" in their country? Wow.
Weren't the Jews there before Palestine? Jews were forced out of their homeland hundreds of years ago. Are the Jews not the indigenous people of that region?
2000 years ago.
I respectfully disagree with your dissertation on the above. #1) the offering to the Palestinian people gave them the worst and Israeli's the best so it was declined. #2) the Palestinians were told to leave the area to prevent being killed and they could return when Britan got things settled #3) there were Jews in the area of Palestine and they lived peacefully with Palestinians. #4) Land was taken from people that had thriving businesses, orchards and homes no matter who decided to take the land #5) Palestinians want their homes back.
Not everyone in the world follows a judeo Christian belief. My husband's father and Mother were those people that lost everything...they were refugees until they got their 1st citizenship here. Most of those in Israel now should not even be there if you follow Judea christianity..they are not Hebrew. The problem now is Netanyahu wants the oil that has been found in the sea near Gaza...how do think Americans would act if the roles were reversed?
I respectfully disagree: the Palestinians rejected all Jews on their land, the Palestinians did not live peacefully with the Jews, there were many programs and murders and the Jews were kicked out of every Arab state. That was ethnic cleansing. The Arabs that stayed are Israeli Arabs with full rights including voting and there are Israeli Arab doctors, lawyers and Supreme Court judges. The Jews want their homes back in the Arab lands. Where were the voices when they were kicked out? BTW, Israeli Arabs do not want to live in a Palestinian state. They are happy with where they are.
Thank you for showing us the impact to your family. Also news is about oil found off Gaza - that does give Netanyahu a huge reason to go after it. That also explains why he might have let Oct 7th happen- to get support to attack.
Exactly, Cathie.
Robin Alexander preposterously writes that "no one came and colonized anything." Have you not heard of the 1916 Sykes-Picot Agreement that divided the Middle East (including Palestine) between Great Britain and France?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sykes%E2%80%93Picot_Agreement
My mistake. I meant to say the Jews did not “colonize” anything. Yes of course. The actual colonization was done by powerful western entities, the ottomans , and if you go back far enough the Muslim Caliphate.
Bravo Robin Someone else has the guts to speak truth .
Read the detailed history. israel’s original idea for a Palestinian homeland was to grant the Palestinians worthless desert land.
The Palestinians are the descendants of Jews who embraced first Christianity and then Islam as foreign empires imposed their religion.
My peace plan for the Middle East is on this post:
https://robertreich.substack.com/p/biden-must-take-the-lead-on-israel/comment/50867410
This is not the truth
They need to release the hostages.
Especially the 4 million Palestinian hostages Israel has held since 1948.
There would be no problem had not the Arabs tried to obliterate (genocide) the Jews in 1948, not having learned a lesson, they kept coming back again and again, like the insane religious nuts that they are, 1956, 1967,1973, 2006, 2014, Oct 7th, they get their asses handed to them each time,. each time they lose territory, they never learn.
That is because Islam is a nation of Martyrs, and martyrs are glorified, not mourned, and HAMAS said it a month ago, they will never stop, they will keep coming back and send martyrs to paradise (but never, ever the leaders).
Perfectly explained.
Thanks Robin, considering that hard core Zionists consider me an anti semite
There were less that half that living in the region in 1948. There are two million Levantine, Muslim Arab-speakers living as citizens of Israel now. Where is your logic and math. (Please show all work!)
If you put fish in a fish tank, the population will limit themselves to the size of the fish tank, but humans, or at least some sexually obsessed cultures will not, they just breed and breed until the space can no longer support them, they the dam breaks.
I live on an island of some 55 square miles, the deer here have no natural predators, without predators they become pests, but also the deer population is so large that they became sick and diseased.
When the deer population becomes so large that it is a hazard to itself, the county give out hunting permits, and even pay landowners $1.000 to permit hunters on their land to cull the herd.
It sounds horrible. It got me, because I had a family that munched on my lawn, and one doe we called apple, because she would take an apple from us.
The emotional me objected, and I will not allow hunting on my property, but the rational mind knows that the curd has to be culled for the safety of the entire population, because a diseased buck can wipe out an entire population.
The problem is the synergy between biology and hormones and religious imperatives to go forth and breed, thus to overpower the world through numbers.
What can't be achieved via the sword or politics can be achieved by fecundity.
I point doubters to the Cult of Rome,which bans abortion and contraception.
Such bans are not necessary in a cult where access and familiarity with women is restricted and prohibited, and thus there is an overload of testosterone and semen when the dam breaks......... marriage and/or rape
They can go elsewhere.
Please elaborate on 4 million hostages. What do you mean?
Yes
When and if all the hostages are released Israel will go nuclear! The devastation we see now will be inconsequential to what it will be after their release.
You are out of your mind. Israel will go nuclear when they are at an existential precipice, but releasing the hostages doesn't fill the bill.
Doubt that very much.
Israel can’t go nuclear on Gaza or the West Bank without risking their own exposure to nuclear effects.
I think he was using "nuclear" metaphorically. Whatever - the devastation is and will be ... one more huge stain on human history
Les is proof that not all knives in the RR drawer are sharp.
Let’s not forget who started this war. It was Hummas! They brutally killed innocent children and raped and mutilated women. Now they are hiding and using the Palestinians as human shields. They don’t care anything about the Palestinians people. They only care about wiping out Israel.
Tell it to Hamas. They could have peace if they wanted it by releasing the hostages.
Yes, releasing the remaining hostages and announcing a full and unconditional surrender. I do wonder why the elected government of Gaza, Hamas, is not providing food and medical supplies to help their own people.
Hamas does not care about their own people. They were given concrete to build shelter for Palestinians. Instead they built tunnels to attack Israelis. They knew exactly what would come from their October 7 attack on Israel, too, and they are hoping for more Palestinian deaths to win the propaganda war. They have stolen supplies from the people, shot missiles from civilian areas, and repeatedly use the Palestinians as human shields. There is no love or concern for the people. Their only wish is to kill Jews. That is the harsh fact of who Hamas is!
Yes, Humas started this war and all they care about is the genocide of the Jewish people. They will stop at nothing until this is accomplished which is why they must be destroyed.
Agreed.
Wow there’s some serious cognitive dissonance on this thread. Repeating the lies doesn’t make them true. Only to the indoctrinated.
Darn - I came across a great meme, but I can't find it right now; something about how when your aid is being distributed by terrorists, they are often too busy to do the job. Sadly true.
Listen the fact is, these people aren't stupid. If they wanted to create a decent life for their people they could have. Their ideology is not about that. Period end of story.
Sad, but given my current understanding of Hamas, I believe that assessment is correct. Since Israel has apparently agreed to the terms of the currently proposed ceasefire, we’ll see if Hamas also will agree.
No Joyce,
Long past that point, most of the hostages are probably dead.
Iran acheived its goal through Hamas, meaning Hamas scuttled the the Saudi/ Israel deal. The long term goal of the destruction of Israel is the Ultimate Goal, and to kill every jew, and Infidels worldwide.