Israel was established as a state for stateless Jews after WWII. Its purpose was to be a Jewish state as a rallying point for diaspora from all corners of the globe. At the time Jewish was considered a "race" more than simply a religion. All types of Jews were persecuted collectively regardless of specific national heritage or form of worship.
Fast forward several decades and now Israel is a modern multi-cultural nation comprised of many secular Jews, Christians, Muslims, and other religious affiliations. Israel is an anomaly in a secularized world being a theocracy - a religion-based state. A separation of religion and state is seen as necessary and stabilizing in multi-cultural societies.
It is not simply coincidence that the current turmoil in the Middle East can be attributed to a clash of two theocracies - Israel and Iran. What could have been a disagreement between two nation-states has erupted into a holy war over the fate of the Holy City of Jerusalem. Religious fanaticism's first casualty is reason and logic. Iran-backed Hamas will sacrifice themselves and the entire population of Gaza as sacred martyrs for a religious cause. This is not about the states of Palestine and Israel, but a holy war over the Holy Land and as such there can be no compromise. https://johnhardman.substack.com/p/tower-of-babel-in-the-holy-land
Israel is fighting two wars - one with the Islamists and the other internally with Ultra-Orthodox Jews. The only way to disengage is for Israel to declare itself a secular state and to remove the Star of David from its national flag. Just as the flags of other modern nations have morphed over time, it is now Israel's time to let go of its founding Zionism and embrace a new mandate as a modern secular state open to a multitude of cultures and religions. Until then, any action that the state of Israel takes is construed as a religious act in a region with a long, sad history of holy wars. Until religion is removed from Israeli and Palestinian politics there will be no peace. https://johnhardman.substack.com/p/israel-iran-war-second-nekba
Israel is not a theocracy. You are confusing a government based on religious law (like Iran), with the need for a state belonging to the ethnic group known as Jews. Why do Jews need a state? Because a legitimate sovereign state has a legitimate right to an army which can defend itself. Without that protection, you get six million dead in ovens and mass graves. That's the whole story. Israel is a democracy with many different groups enjoying full citizenship and rights, but Jews are the majority. This is not a holy war. Israel allows Muslims to worship at their sites; it's not really a problem. The minority of Orthodox Jews are often annoying, but so are MAGA Republicans -- everyone gets a voice. As far as removing the Star of David from its flag, again, that star is not just a religious symbol. It has represented a nation and a people for some 3,000 years. (It's laughable how only Israel has people telling it what to put on its flag, how to fight an existential war, how to think, blah blah blah, yada yada yada. It's all part of the perennial anti-semitism).
Israel is not a democracy and never has been. It is a Jewish supremacist state, codified by law in 2018. It exists primarily for Jews. There are over 60 laws restricting the rights of non-Jews, making everyone else, including the indigenous Palestinian population, including Christian Palestinians, second class citizens. I've seen podcasts of Palestinians living in Israel and in Gaza and they are made to feel inferior and unwanted. It's an American fantasy that everybody's living together in Israel happily.
Your statement that "Israel allows Muslims to worship at their sites" is unfortunately false; as a matter of fact it's this very point that initiated the Oct. 7 attacks. Israel had been raiding the al-Aqsa mosque, one of the holiest in Islam, repeatedly, beating up worshippers in the process. Hamas repeatedly warned Israel there would be consequences if Israel didn't stop. Israel kept raiding.
Most of the rest of the world, certainly the Global South, sees Israel/Palestine as a classic case of settler colonialism. European (Jews) export their problems and prejudices to a weaker country outside themselves (why wasn't Israel established in Germany or Poland if in recompense for the Holocaust?), slaughter the natives, and grab the land for their own purposes. The Global South sees Jews as being neither favored (chosen people), nor privileged (owed something for the Holocaust). And believe me, the Global South knows genocide.
So the Israeli parliament isn't real? Hotly contested elections are a phantom? Independent courts a fantasy?
The existence of antidemocratic forces doesn't negate that Israel has been and remains a vibrant democracy.
The European colonialism claim is equally baseless. Jews have a many millenia old claim and a very significant portion of the nation is comprised of Jews who were expelled from neighboring Arab countries, many thousands of Russian refugees and Ethiopians.
No one said Israel doesn't have a parliament or contested elections; you are twisting my words. I said the Israeli parliament represents the interests of Jews. Israel's been declared an apartheid state by Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, and smaller orgs like the American Friends Service Committee (Quakers), and B'Tselem, an Israeli human rights group. It is anything but a "vibrant democracy".
The same about "independent courts", at least concerning Palestinians. Israel currently holds over 9000 Palestinians (there were 6000 before Oct. 7), including several hundred children, in prisons, most in indefinite detention without charges or trial. Palestinians that do come to trial are tried in military, not civil, courts, where the conviction rate is over 99%.
Like it or not, settler colonialism is how the Global South sees Israel/Palestine. Were Jews expelled from Arab countries before or after 1948?
The occupied territories are, well, occupied. There was a war, in fact several. While I certainly don't want Gaza and the West Bank to be annexed, be careful what you wish for.
Mostly in 1948, more in later years. It's not hard to find out if you look. When you do, you'll see it's just one portion of millenia of expulsions.
The global south's view is hardly objective, granted with reason, but still far from objective.
Elections are the pap that autocrats throw to populations to try to delude them into thinking they have a democracy. I don't know how it works in Israel so I will assume it is the same as in the U.S. Elections put the population to sleep, thinking anyone cares about their preferences, then the elected are free to sell their votes to the highest bidder (necessarily the rich since they have the highest money pots by definition), and the population's supposed preferences can be forgotten about until the next election. Majorities in the U.S. want available abortions, universal healthcare, diplomacy not war and etc. but do the elected representatives give a damn? Not at all. Democracy? That's BS. We have a representational autocracy. The Constitution was written to insure that.
That's a nice little story that collapses a lot of complexity into an excuse for surrendering your agency.
It's hard to move any society to be more caring and equitable, but it's possible even with a structurally flawed representative democracy.
More people today have access to healthcare than ever in America. Is it sufficient? No. Is it possible to make it better? The progress made so far says yes. Will it be hard and take constant work? Of course.
Israel has been more progressive in some areas, but the constant pressure of living among nations that, by and large, have been immensely hostile since before independence cannot help but distort the liberal values the country was founded upon.
It's all too easy for populist demagogues to harness real or imagined threats to undermine democracy. But demagogues can be defeated and we need to all work together here and abroad to do so.
Obviously you are not someone who can get pregnant. You are not of the LGBTQi community, or BIPOC community, or someone struggling to survive on social security or SSDI. I guess you take your Medicare for granted if you're old enough.
Maybe you're just a Russian/Koch bot. Whatever you are, your elaboration on the classic PR line of the Super Rich ("all politicians are the same") is nihilistic and doing their work for free. I say, #getoutthevote #bethechange
"There are no government statistics categorizing Israeli Jews as "Ashkenazi", "Mizrahi", etc, but studies and estimates have been conducted. In a 2019 study, in a sample meant to be representative of the Israeli Jewish population, about 44.9% percent of Israel's Jewish population were categorized as Mizrahi (defined as having grandparents born in North Africa or Asia), 31.8% were categorized as Ashkenazi (defined as having grandparents born in Europe, the Americas, Oceania and South Africa), 12.4% as "Soviet" (defined as having progenitors who came from the ex-USSR in 1989 or later), about 3% as Beta Israel (Ethiopia) and 7.9% as a mix of these, or other Jewish groups."
I've been told this before. Arabs may be in the government but they appear to have a negligible effect on policy, assuming they have the best interests of their own people at heart. Assume they're not for starving Palestinian children or bombing hospitals. The ones serving may be Israeli puppets serving Israeli interests (kind of like the discredited (in the eyes of Palestinians) Palestinian Authority), or they may be window dressing.
Real quick: Al-Aqsa was built ON TOP of the Jewish Temple. Muslims freely visit Al-Aqsa, while Jews are prohibited. EVERY citizen of Israel has the exact same rights. Gaza is NOT Israel. It is governed by Hamas.
Jews may be prohibited from going to al-Aqsa but they go there anyway, and frequently. It was the raids there that triggered Oct. 7. Israel's claims that the Oct. 7 attacks were unprovoked is baseless.
When you say things like every citizen of Israel has the same rights, you reveal you don't know what you're talking about. I mentioned in a post above Israel's been declared an apartheid state by Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, the American Friends Service Committee (Quakers), and B'Tselem, an Israeli human rights group.
Israel is an occupying force that controls both Gaza and the West Bank.
It's laid a siege on Gaza for the past 18 years (ever since Hamas was elected in) and controls everything that goes in and out. It limited food and medical supplies even before Oct. 7. Most Palestinians are very poor because Israel has destroyed their economy while Israelis are prosperous - this is by design. Hamas runs day to day affairs in Gaza as part of locals masking the face of occupation, a strategy long employed by occupying countries.
Israel has an enormously effective propaganda machine, and western media strenuously limit the Palestinian point of view. You might consider getting the viewpoints of actual Palestinians, and not just that of Israel.
Please, read more. Jews are not all powerful colonialist. They had no such rights or freedoms. Arabs on the other hand, were the original slave holders of white women and others for centuries.
Israel was not in the mosque. The raid on October 7th had been planned for two years. That's how long it took to get organized to kill Jews, who went out of their way to be nice to their neighbors, taking them to hospitals, helping to irrigate crops, the like.
Palestinians would be hugely surprised that Israelis are "nice neighbors" given that they regularly steal Palestinian land, drive them from their homes (often in the middle of the night), burn their crops, subject them to 600 checkpoints in Gaza alone restricting freedom of movement, imprison them indefinitely without charges or trial, and, especially in the West Bank, murder them with impunity and no consequence.
Doesn't Israel have military administration of all the territories it won by war in 1967 (except the Sinai which it gave back to Egypt)? And doesn't it have total control over the all the electricity, water supply and internet connections in the territories it occupies, even though it ostensibly no longer "administers" the territories? including all of Gaza? And doesn't the Israeli government fund and arm Jewish Israelis for the purpose of forcibly taking over land from non-Jews in the West Bank? And isn't Israel supported with billions of US dollars in aid from other colonial powers, including the US?
And aren't those "rights" and privileges the same as those of a colonial power by any other name?
The tension between democracy and the ethno-religious state are at the breaking point.
The huge disparity in power between Israel, with a per capita GDP of over $58,000, and Gaza, with a per capita GDP of $3,800, while Israel controls all of Gaza's essentials, and has one of the largest military forces in the world, are also classically colonial.
We have been blinded too long by our love for Israel as the idea of a refuge for the Jewish people. A true homeland.
It's similar to the way that White Americans are just beginning to grasp the cost of our success to others. Key word "othering." The only chance for peace is to educate ourselves and to accept responsibility for our past transgressions again those less powerful and privileged, and to recognize our common humanity.
By doing so we might even have a chance to focus on our shared existential threat of climate change, caused by the forces of greed that also deliberately try to divide us.
What has become of the 800,000 Jewish people forcibly thrown out of Moslem nations . They lived in these countries for centuries. One fifth of the people in Israel are Moslem .Half the people in Israel are indigenous to the area. What percent of the people in Moslem nations are openly Jewish ? Why is it that the only people in the world expected to be good Christians are the Jews?
As an American & an Israeli ( My father fought in Golani- 1967- my grandfather fled poland, his entire family wiped out-met my grandmother in Russia, then went to Austria, then Israel when it became a state)
There has been nothing but a constant stream of attempts to wipe Israelies off the map since it's inception.
People like you that talk about Israel like this, have no actual clue how Israel really is.
This is how, and why there is so much disinformation, and falsities invading the narratives & making people hate.
uhh Do you know how many Muslims are in the IDF?
Have you ever seen a video of soldiers on a train, while one of them (muslim) is praying?
Why don't you talk about all the other countries that were created after WWII?
Jordan, Pakistan, etc.
The jews voted in favor of a two state solution back in 47' and the arabs said "noipe" " Fuck y ou guys" and declared war the day after the signatures.
They lost that war, and every war since.
They only wanted Israel back after Jews turned a Desert into a paradise via human innovation and technological advancement.
Oh, and btw? Why did Israel take 2 747s loaded with medical equiptment, and Medical staff to Haiti after the Earthquake?
So much so, the American doctors were so ashamed they had to direct "severe trauma patients" to the Israeli tents, because they, and ONLY they, brought MRI, CT scans, and every piece of Medical equiptment halfway around the world--and were the FIRST to respond.
They also did this in Chile, and many other countries, but you'll never hear about it- you know why?Because they don't have the need to boast their accolades to the entire world like others.
With your background you naturally embody the Jewish viewpoint and don't want to hear anything else.
The fact is Israel is trying to exterminate as many Palestinians as possible to do a massive land grab in Gaza. It has no interest in allowing the indigenous population anything.
The UN (controlled by western nations) had no right (other than that of force)to go in and carve Israel out of Palestine. The people living there at the time had no say in the confiscation of their lands and homes to create Israel, never received compensation of any kind, and had nothing to do with the Holocaust. If someone tried doing this to you, wouldn't you fight back?
People keep trying to justify Israel on the basis of a "best use" land theory, an "Arabs are savages and sub-human" theory, and Israel "does so much good in the world" theory. None of this justifies the theft of land and murder of the indigenous population.
Prior to the concept of Zionism in the late 19th century, Jews, Palestinians, Arabs, Greeks, and other groups lived in that area in relative peace and harmony. Antisemitism is a European idea, not a Middle Eastern one. But after the arrival of the Zionists everything changed.
I looked up Matt Himmelstein's claim that the Israelis sent medical equipment to Haiti after the earthquake in 2010. 80% of the reports were from Israeli sources but I can believe it. Jews have been helpers and doctors forever. The Jews I knew growing up were mostly socialist humanitarians and many of them became doctors. And most of all, Haitians don't threaten Israel in any way. But then Israel turns around and destroys all the hospitals in Gaza, and insures that many thousands will die of disease and starvation. Does anyone but me think that this more than cancels out a lone humanitarian mission to another distant country? I have thought for years that Israel's right wing plan was to depopulate Gaza radically, by genocide if necessary, and take all the land. And now it's happening. For me, this is nothing new and it has nothing to do with Oct. 7 events. This has been the plan forever. This is the real long term plan, not a 2-state and not a 1-state.
We will never convince them. No matter what Israel does, it is wrong. So let's stop trying. Israel exists; we are not giving it up; we will fight to the death to keep it; the Gazans did nothing with the land handed over to them - they squandered pride real estate and built tunnels instead. They should learn how to be productive and stop whining.
Kaliningrad! Set aside Kaliningrad as a homeland for European Jews. Near where they lived & were tortured & executed. Formerly Konigsberg in East Prussia, part of Germany, located between Poland & Lithuania, & then seized by the USSR & now an enclave of Russia, which doesn't deserve it.
The far right in the U.S. consider America to be a "Christian nation" yet we do not have crucifixes displayed on our national flag. You are attempting to be logical when religious zealotry is existentially primal and illogical. The Star of David is a symbol of Judaism and Israel is symbolically a "Jewish nation."
The "minority of Orthodox Jews" are not simply a nuisance but politically prominent in the government of Israel with dangerous consequences. A majority of Israelis would like to be free of Netanyahu and his right-wing coalition but the war complicates the change in government. This is an opportunity for self-reflection and change. It would be a shame to waste it.
Well, I guess we know what the war is about, now. Thank you for pointing it out. "A majority of Israelis would like to be free of Netanyahu and his right-wing coalition but the war complicates the change in government." He and his cronies don't want a change in government and the people might be pushing for just that.
And how many Jewish and Muslim presidents have the U.S. had? Right, ZERO. So Christians are still running the show over here and yet they are whining about being ostracized. MAGATs are all over the place. I WISH we could get a Jewish POTUS. We DO have a Jewish second gentleman--a tiny bit of progress there.
Yeah for meaningless details. Besides, your wrong. Trux and the cross are one and the same, christians were just too lazy to put a body on it. learn to laff, its all you got.
That's not so. Many of the non-Catholic sects do not believe in depicting Jesus on the Cross. Not sure what their reasoning is, but if you go into a non-Catholic church you will not see a crucifix.
I think George Carlin figured out a long time ago that religion and politics don’t mix:
"The real reason we can't have the TEN COMMANDMENTS in a courthouse: You cannot post 'Thou shalt not steal," 'Thou shalt not commit adultery, and 'Thou shalt not lie' in a building full of lawyers, judges, and politicians. It creates a hostile work environment."
Lisa-where are you getting your facts from? Do you not know that the stated intention of both the PLO and Hamas is to eradicate Israel? Who started this back in October 2023 by killing 1200 people and taking hostages. In my book, Israel cannot wipe out the Palestinians fast enough. we have enough terrorist organizations in the world and could easily do without the PLO and Hamas. Grow up and do your homework and stop taking the easy way out by blaming the "Americans". The fact is that the PLO wants all of Israel-not just what the UN awarded them in 1947. Hamas just hates Israel and wants to get rid of them because a Jew should never be over a Muslim according to Muslim beliefs. Both the PLO and Hamas have been very open and up front about what they believe and what they want-or haven't you been paying attention? Israel is at war and what is going on in Gaza is a consequence of that war. Gaza has been self governing since 2005 and look what the PLO and Hamas turned it into- staging area for terrorist attacks into Israel! The people in Gaza supported the PLO and Hamas and allowed them to mingle in the civilian population while they were building tunnels under hospitals and schools to smuggle arms in. When you lie down with dogs, you attract fleas and Hamas is the PLO's fleas. Now they want to whimper that they do not like what it takes to get rid of those fleas. The PLO has rejected EVERY peace offer since 1948 including a two state offer in 2005-obviously the PLO wants violence, if they did not they would come to the negotiation table prepared and ready to do what it takes to ensure that peace takes place-and yet-the PLO has rejected every single proposal in the 75 years since the UN decision to create Israel. It is time that they learned that their wish for violence has come to fruition. This has nothing to do with American weapons. The Israeli's are going to do what is necessary to protect their sovereignty as is their right-the only thing that having US weapons does is make it easier and takes less time. The PLO is like a street fighter who throws the first punch and then whines when their opponent hits them back hard. If you are going to do things like slaughter 1200 people and take more hostages be prepared to get hit back harder and don't whine about Israeli's not playing fair when you give aid and sustenance to the very enemy(Hamas) that started the war.
There are so many inaccuracies and falsehoods in here, one hardly knows where to begin, but I'll try addressing a few.
The Hamas charter says it has nothing against Jews or the Jewish religion, but is against the treatment of Palestinians by Israel, which has been oppressing, subjugating, and dispossessing them since Israel's inception. That is why Hamas exists. This history didn't begin Oct. 7.
It's Israel that wants it all and is unwilling to share with the indigenous population, which it's doing it's best to exterminate. If you look at a map of Israel and Palestine in 1948 and look at the same map today, you will see that there is practically no Palestine left.
It is a flat falsehood that the PLO has rejected every proposal put forth for peace and a 2 state solution (more Israeli propaganda), Israel has rejected many. During the 1990's and 2000's various coalitions of Arab countries proposed recognizing Israel in exchange for the establishment of a Palestinian state (2 state solution) which of course implied recognition of Palestine by Israel. Israel either ignored these proposals or turned them down flat. (Kind of like it wouldn't accept the ceasefire agreement that had been brokered and Hamas accepted, just so it could invade Rafah).
Israel's not playing fair? It's committing war crimes by the ton, quite a different thing. It's against international law to cut off food, water, medical, electricity to a civilian population, bomb hospitals and destroy medical infrastructure, bomb schools, universities, churches and mosques, residential areas. Gaza's been made uninhabitable. People are starving and Israel fires on them when they try to access food. Israeli snipers target children age 3 and up, ambulance drivers, women waving white flags. It kills parents in front of their children. It especially targets journalists (over 120 killed in 6 months vs less than 20 killed in the 4 years of WW2) in an effort to keep its atrocities unknown. It has 9000 Palestinians imprisoned, most in indefinite detention without charges or trial. Life in Israeli prisons includes beatings, starvation and rape. When it comes to savagery, Israel is second to nobody.
This is not a war - which implies armies on both sides - but the wanton slaughter of a defenseless civilian population. You say Israel cannot wipe out Palestinians fast enough? The Final Solution to the Palestinian problem? You're no better than a Nazi.
Your post here is so ignorant there isn't even a place to begin. Where do you get your information from? Start by actually reading the Hamas charter, which you clearly haven't done. Then get a few quality history books written by actual historians, not fabulists. There are objective facts and whatever it is you are reading is ignoring them.
Israel IS a theocracy, and for decades any Jew was able to immigrate based on BEING a Jew, per the Law of Return, but only on being a religiously-recognized Jew. My mother-in-law, an Orthodox Jew born in Warsaw, converted to B’hai, and she and her children were and are NOT considered Jews, in the sense that Israel sees them. My friend who converted from Catholic to Jewish before her children were born is a Jew and so are her kids. It’s the religion that is central.
Once living IN Israel, there’s so much more culturally going on, but the state is a theocracy set up primarily as a haven for Jewish people the world over … Religiously Jewish people, not culturally Jewish or Jewish by lineage.
As a thought exercise, I like to consider a somewhat similar situation that would be created if the Native Americans in the US were to "buy," say, the state of South Dakota via casino proceeds and votes. They could then declare South Dakota to be a Native American Nation with appropriate sovereignty. Of course, the myriad number of US Government-violated treaties over history would further justify this action. Naturally, non-Native people living in South Dakota would not be too happy about suddenly finding themselves living in another country, and many if not most of them would immediately consider violence as the optimum solution to their problem.
By changing the people involved, from Jews and Arabs to Native Americans and "other" Americans, whole new ways of thinking about these situations evolve. Who's "right"? for starters...
This thought experiment demonstrates the weakness of melding ethno-religiosity with statecraft. My ancestors are from the Balkans, where grudges persist for centuries because your neighbors use a different alphabet. Everyone needs to see Monty Python’s “Life of Brian” and come clean on their ethnic presuppositions. Either we’re one humanity or forever at war thanks to ethnocentrism.
Thanks. This is spot on. I have used this comparison over the years, only to have people look at me as if to say. "Well, that's not going to happen", and then go on to defend the creation of Israel without the Palestinians even being at the table.
Many of my own family members were born in a little town in the Alps in Austria. After a while, their town was no longer in Austria, but in Italy.
That sort of thing is not so unusual as you may think. Colonial rule drew arbitrary lines in the dirt, sometimes fragmenting long-held lands of ancient peoples, lots and lots of times in lots and lots of places.
And, YES, the arbitrary lines have and still do cause all sorts of trouble regarding which entity various people feel a sense of loyalty to.
May kids aren't considered Jewish for the purpose of the faith, but I read about The Law of Return passed in 1950, and that says {so far as I can determine} they can immigrate to Israel, if they so desire.
I think ideas about matrilineage are mixed up and morph from place to place, but that’s how it was explained to me. I have several friends who converted to Judaism before starting their families for these reasons.
I converted to Judaism before I married my Jewish husband 43 years ago. He mostly wanted me to so that our children would be Jewish. And should the need arise, they’d be able to emigrate to Israel. I was very comfortable with this because I was already attracted to the religion and the people.
I had an Orthodox conversion procedure which included the mikveh and a questioning before a Bet Din.
The need for Israel as a refuge is very important to most Jews. History does repeat itself.
Despite what you said about Jews in other countries being able to return to Israel, they are not a theocracy. Because of the Holocaust, Israel needed such rules in order to provide a refuge for Jews worldwide. Other countries have similar policies: Ireland comes to mind and I’m sure there are others.
Being Jewish is more than an ethnic group (like the Irish) and more than a religion; it’s both.
No, it’s set up to provide a haven for anyone considered Jewish—they could be an atheist, it wouldn’t matter. It didn’t matter to the Nazis, which is very salient to this discussion.
THAT part is certainly true. My own children would have been in the gas chambers, and at least half of my nieces and nephews and in-laws. But also my sisters, who were disabled, and not Jewish. It was a horrible time. The status of Jews as a people AND a religion, that has been the subject of books about how it came about. I have not read them, but plan to ....
Once again, that old tired, detestable chestnut. Adolph Hitler is the final authority on who is Jewish and who is not. My father tried to pull that on me too. I thought I should have the final word on that subject.
Jewish by lineage is a way to become a citizen/emigrate to Israel. I was unaware that a born Jew that has converted is not considered Jewish. A non Jewish woman that has converted is okay? and so would her children be Jewish then because it's the mother that matters in terms of being considered Jewish- my understanding. As well I have heard from my (Jewish) religious relation that a person can convert, but can never leave their Jewishness. ( You can be verbally excommunicated by those who don't like what you did). In other words you are Jewish regardless. (I believe the Nazi's also felt this way) I understand religiously there is always the hope ( from the J community) that you will return. Of course there are so many opinions (Rabbis etc) and rules from different quarters. In Israel it's the Orthodox rabbis that make the rules for acceptance and they are very strict. To emigrate to Israel, one has to prove lineage/connection. That's what I know from personal experience/jhistory/relations over the years. Things may have changed.
PS. You don't have to be an observant Jew to be considered Jewish in Israel, if that is what you mean by "religiously" Jewish.
I have not researched this issue — I have what people {religious and not religious} have told me. My mother-in-law converted before she had kids, so they were not Jewish, because when she had them, she was not Jewish.
We have to be clear about who us making the rules. To be a Jewish citizen of Israel or to have “the right to return “ you have to prove you are Jewish. What that means beyond being born Jewish (having a Jewish mother) I am not sure. They have their rules in Israel that the orthodox rabbis agreed on.
I believe for your mother-in-law’s kids to be considered Jewish they too would have to convert. Then they can claim citizenship in Israel .
Are there other historic ethnic groups that have been so ill treated throughout history that they have needed their own state; yet, surrounded by those who may not like them? I think most recently of the Tibetans who do not have a sovereign country of their own.
"annoying" yeah, it's so annoying when your leaders slaughter tens of thousands of innocent women and children while screaming "You will die, your children will die, your grandchildren will die!” in the Knesset ...
How can you be so dismissive of the current threat to democracy in Israel AND in the US? Both are hanging by a thread.
We are once again being played by the Oligarchy, the JP Morgans and Bushes and Duponts and Musks whose grandfathers supported the Nazi rise and who are now supporting the simultaneous rise and fall of Israel.
They already took the Supreme Court of the United States. How annoying!
Bibi's coup attempt was stopped, this time.
Do you think the Big Boys will stop there? Do you think Bibi will stop even after Gaza is bombed into dust and bone? What will happen to Arabs in Israel if he and his backers make it to the Sea? "From the Jordan to the Sea."
Do you think there will be a secular resistance in Israel and the zealots will just shrug and walk away from power? Or does the coalition have its own Project 2025?
The Oiligarchy and the Military Industrial Complex behind both MAGA And the rise of vicious racism in today's Knesset and Settlers and IDF are extremely dangerous to the viability of both our nations.
Bibi and Donny are just twin tools of the Billionaire class that wants Putin style power. They want kleptocracy, sanctified with a veil of Christian Jewish patriarchy.
Emphasis on the Christian.
The "existential war" isn't against the corrupt, weak terrorist groups, its' against the powerful merchants of death, the merchants of climate change and of chaos. The same group of merchants. From Koch and Tillerson to Putin and MBS to Modi, to Xi and Khameini, to all the greedy bastards waiting in line behind them.
Do you think Jews will be safe in the United States if the WASPs install The Don back in the White House and never hold another election?
Do you think the Leo Lewis crowd will keep supporting Jews after they have taken over? The Kushners maybe. Ackman? Mmmmm... not so much. So many assets to "acquire."
What would stop the Christian Nationalists from just taking the Holy Land itself, "their" holy land? They have their Red Heifers ready and they look forward to rising while the Jews "burn in hell for eternity." (I know because my neighbor talks about it all the time real loud on his front porch. He belongs to a "Temple" of Jews for Jesus.
Are you a billionaire? If not you are dispensable. Collateral damage. So annoying.
Hamas and all radical Islam is the threat to democracy in Israel and the entire West. I hate Donald Trump; he's a would-be dictator, no doubt. I was never a fan of Bibi but I'm guessing his primary motivation is to stay out of jail. Israel is bigger than him. Jewish patriarchy? LOL. You don't know Jewish women.
You have the chutzpah to say Israel is not a theocracy. And I take the pro-Zionist tone of the rest of your paragraph. You are delusional! And then you equate anti-zionism with anti-semitism. I suppose you think genocide is an unfortunate necessity.
There is no religious entity ruling Israel. This is a fact. There is a religious faction that participates in its Parliament. This really isn't debatable.
Here's the reason for a "Jewish" state (and by Jewish I mean ethnically, racially, however you want to slice it but NOT religiously): without a state a people cannot have a legitimate military and cannot defend itself. It's that simple. Look at the Holocaust. Jews have been thrown out of European and Middle Eastern countries with no recourse, and slaughtered. The only thing that fixes that is having your own state. You may not feel the need for it -- that's fine. But there is a need.
I don't have strong disagreement with the thoughts expressed by John. However, Israel is still regarded by secular as well as religious Jews who don't live in Israel as the last refuge for Jews. Jews have been kicked out of Syria, Jordan, Egypt, etc. as well as not welcome in many other countries. The fear of being exiled is real. I would recommend Israel having stronger Constitutional protection for Non-Jews (and I confess to not knowing what protections currently exist) but to divest religion entirely from Israel is 1. A nonstarter and 2. contrary to Jewish convictions around the world who regard Israel as their ONLY safe place
Alan, did it never occur to you that Israel is not a refuge for Jews, that Israeli Jews will not be "safe" until the other half of the population, the Palestinians also are safe? If I were an Israeli Jew, I would emigrate to any number of democratic countries in which Jews are not locked into an interminable struggle to deny half the population its basic human rights.
Israel is a visceral place. It's home. Its mentioned in our Torah, or the old testament. As a jew, I feel at home there in a way I can't describe. And I agree with you, that Israel isn't really safe until the Palestinians are too. However, there have been sabotages coming from both sides, over and over again. If Hamas would stop indoctrinating their population and children that Jews are pigs and deserve to die, it would help get us to peace faster.
You seem to have missed the statements about the inhumanity of Palestinians made by members of Netanyahu's government who regard each and every Palestinian child as a current or potential member of Hamas and therefore expendable. You also seem to have missed the fact that where Israel now stands was equally viscerally home to many generations of Palestinians before they were driven into exile when the modern state of Israel was created. For several decades, the increasingly "conservative" Israeli government has gone far beyond protecting Israel and done things which seem dedicated to making the Palestinians are unable to feel at home where they now live, but re as miserable as possible (destroying farmer's olive groves, etc.). Today's "war" is just a massive expansion of that approach seemingly in the hopes that the Palestinians will all just exile themselves from Gaza so that Netanyahu can recreate the Kingdom of Solomon with absolutely no appreciation or acknowledgment of what happened to that Kingdom nor how briefly it existed. The Netanyahu government's current paths do not lead to safety but destruction. If they continue, you will absolutely NOT feel safe.
Sally, Israel is a visceral place for some Jews but by no means all Jews. When I visited Israel and the West Bank in 2013, as an American Jew, I felt that Israel was alien to me, and that is because Israel isn't a democracy. A democratic country cannot be a democracy on the front end and a tyrannical state on the back end, that is in the occupied territories, where 5 millions stateless Palestinians are devoid of political, legal and basic human rights. Stand on any rooftop in the West Bank, and a person will see evidence of the occupation ebbed in the landscape: miles and miles of separation walls, a duel road system, and the presence of black water tanks on the roofs of Palestinians homes but not on Jewish Israeli buildings. The Palestinian homes need water tanks because of restricted water supply from Israel, whereas the settlements don't.
I understand your point. Israeli has a lot to do to improve with their neighbors. The walls are up to keep some semblance of peace and order. The murder rate from the Arab military went way down after their building.
Much more needs to be done to speed up entry, with water and the like.
Those of us who grew up without a religion that is also an ethnic identity, don’t have a desire for a homeland. I refer to Christianity, which is a credo instead of a bloodline. Q: is Judaism still a bloodline-based religion?
Sadly us humans invented different religions around the world that has caused misery for thousands of years. I think a new awareness must emerge that's healthy and embraces wellbeing.
As a child of the 1950s-60s, I know that many in my age group searched for a process-based path to truth such as Zen Buddhism (Alan Watts, Kerouac, Ginsberg) or Sufism (Meher Baba) or yoga (Swami Vishnudevananda, Maharishi) in reaction to our perception that our heritage religion (Lutheranism, Methodism, Judaism) is self-limiting, leading inevitably to our tendency to make spurious distinctions between other people and their traditions. Historical religion seemed to me and many of my young friends as an impediment to perceiving and achieving the oneness of humanity.
Stan of Stanistan, I agree with your view. I don't know if you are familiar with Deepak Chopra but I also think he would agree with you. Here's a great talk he gave last December that I think you would really enjoy: https://youtu.be/YU04HibKx9o
Yes, Joan, I attended a lecture in Palm Beach by Deepak Chopra in 1989. His worldview is based in empiricism, not ethnism. As a child of Balkans ancestry, his worldview is invaluable to me.
Israel is not a theocracy. It was founded by secular Jews. Jewish law is not the law of Israel. It is a democracy. Lots of Jews do not practice or believe in Judaism, and they have full right of return. Israel was founded for ethnic Jews, both those who are religious and those who are not. There are also plenty of non-Jewish citizens of Israel and they have full rights of citizenship.
While I tend to agree as regards religion, Lee, history has shown that the persistent persecution of Jews, practicing or not, assimilated or not, makes it necessary to have a place of refuge where Jews can live free of anti-semitism. The events of late, such that everyone wants a ceasefire yet somehow fail to raise their voices to demand release of hostages, only make it all the more clear. Now more than ever, Jews need a homeland.
Until individuals stop identifying with a particular and exclusive ethnic group, they will inevitably be persecuted by some other group. It occurs to me that Marx’s greatest contribution was to try to re-focus our mind on economic class and away from ethno-religious identity.
Do you think that German Jews in the 1920s identified as an exclusive ethnic group and so invited their own persecution? German Jews had pretty much fully assimilated into German society. Then they were blindsided by Nazism.
From what I’ve read, the Jews of Germany had assimilated and yes were blindsided. I fear we have a similar situation with Drumpf, whose plainly stated intent for unwanted people is to put them into camps. Many republicans say, “Oh, that’s just Trump being Trump: he doesn’t mean it.” Same with Hitler, I’ve read. The old hands of German politics thought they could contain Hitler — until he declared a state of emergency and assumed dictatorial powers till May 1945.
I was just today looking up the photos shot by Elizabeth “Lee” Miller in 1945 showing the liberation of the Dachau concentration camp. Impressive lady.
Both of which have long histories of holy wars which is my point about the secularization of nations bringing an end to nationalization of religious zealotry.
Non-Jews are full citizens of Israel with full rights, including voting, running for and serving in office. Arabs are exempt from military service, which is compulsory for others. Israel is not a theocracy, but many of the right-wing want it to be, as in the United States. The flag bearing the Star of David is not exclusively a religious symbol, but a historical one. David was a monarch, not a priest. Some laws of the Torah are incorporated into Israeli government, just as in the United States. There have been no "holy wars" instigated or fought by Israel in modern times. The last one I can recall was the Maccabean revolt in 167 BC. And that wasn't fought to try to enforce Judaism on the occupation forces, but to stop being forced to adhere to their religion.
I would contend that Israel has been in an almost constant series of "holy wars" from its inception in 1948. As long as the Star of David is its national symbol, any war it engages in sparks subconscious religious zealotry both internally and externally.
I agree with your point about Iran; I think the analogy is weak as relates to Vatican City State. With 764 inhabitants and an area of .19 square miles, Vatican City is minuscule compared to Israel. As small as it is, in 2016 Pope Francis welcomed several Muslim Syrian refugee families to live in Vatican City.
Sure, it's small and has accepted refugees. But despite its size and actions it remains, by definition, a theocratic state. Which was the point being made.
It is NOT and never was a theocracy. It was founded by secular Jews. Do you not understand that not all Jews practice religion? Being Jewish is an ethnicity. Some Jews practice religion. Many do not.
what you are proposing would make no difference whatsoever. Remember what the Nazis did to secular Jews--even to Jews who had converted and become Christians or even Christian clergy?
Yes, Hitler’s attempt to eradicate Jews, even those who had fully assimilated German culture (think of “Die Fledermaus”) was based on the idea of bloodline, which of course also characterized those who were truly German. It was an exercise in bloodthirsty idiocy as we all agree. Not being much of a historian, I don’t understand how the Vatican could have signed an agreement with Hitler in apparent disregard of his maniacal tendencies.
Thanks for the info. Since a major character in Die Fledermaus is named Eisenstein, I assumed he was one of the wealthy Jewish residents of Vienna, who owned, according to Timothy Snyder, 70% of the real estate in the Ringstrasse.
Zionism was created because no matter how long Jews live in a country no matter how valuable they are to a country when things get rough the non Jews have a target . In 1947 after the world knew some of what the Nazis did ,approximately 60% of Americans believed the Jewish people must have done something to cause the murdering of 4 out of 5 Jewish people . There has been no group in this nation that supported civil rights for all minorities like the Jewish people and we now see the growth of anti semitism among the left as well as the right who have always been bigots. I don't have any love for any nation that is run by any religion ,but if one looks at this country today ,if you look at history from well before Hitler ,one fact is obvious . Jewish people will become targets eventually .
The real religious clash in the Middle East is not between Islam and Judaism. It's between Sunni and Shi'a Muslims. It's Saudi Arabia vs. Iran. Everyone else is caught in the middle.
Israel and Saudi Arabia are inching closer together and Hamas (funded by Iran) stages a terrorist attack on Israel. Hezbollah (another Iranian client) attacks from Lebanon), the Houthi rebels (another Iranian client) stirs up trouble off the coast of Yemen. All co-ordinated by Iran.
Netanyahu is a short-timer. As soon as there are elections, he's history. Let's focus on that. He's lost the confidence of his own people, due to his conduct of this war.
And, all those missiles and drones launched against Israel by Iran were just for show...
I do not argue your thesis of the power struggle between Sunni Arabs and Shi'a Persians, but the fate of Jerusalem is at the core of the religious fanaticism on both sides. The problem for Israel is that it currently occupies Jerusalem and Iran is infiltrating Sunni Islamists to be proxy martyrs in a Shi'a drive to "purify" the Holy City. https://johnhardman.substack.com/p/israel-iran-war-second-nekba
My theories are still valid as long as Israel is a "Jewish state" occupying Islam's holiest shrine. The only way out (other than genocide or ethnic cleansing) is for Israel to become a secular state and cede Jerusalem to a neutral party such as UNESCO to become a cultural heritage site rather than a flash point of religious extremism. The ousting of Netanyahu is the beginning of the formation of a secular Israel but not the end solution.
Julia: So you're saying that any Hindu or Rohinga or Catholic or Bahai is just as likely to arrive at the gates of Israel claiming to be returning and be welcomed in and end up in the Knesset as a Jew would be? Since it's such a secular state, right? What is there about a Zionist membership card that comes with an obligation to disdain truth and start quoting Israeli propaganda?
Nope, like I mentioned, secular Israel is being attacked internally by far right religious fanatics hoping to transform Israel into a full theocracy - a "pure" Jewish state.
"Thirty-two of the coalition’s sixty-four members in the Knesset (out of a hundred and twenty parliamentary seats) are disciples of so-called religious parties, the political arms of theocratic communities. These parties, and factions of parties, can be divided into three groups: The largest alliance, with fourteen seats, is religious Zionism, whose forebears were preoccupied with preserving the rabbinic privileges afforded by the British Mandate in the new state of Israel—such as supervision over marriage, burial, conversion, and dietary laws, and state-supported religious schools—but which, since 1967, has been overtaken by the messianic claims of West Bank settlers. The Haredi, or ultra-Orthodox, with seven seats, represent self-segregating communities living mainly in and around Jerusalem. Shas, with eleven seats, are a populist, anti-élite party of Orthodox Mizrahi immigrants from North Africa and the Middle East, who tend to be poorer and less educated.
In recent years, the three groups have meshed ideologically into the “national camp,” adhering in particular to the ultranationalist, Greater Israel vision of the religious-Zionist alliance: prohibiting the surrender of Biblically promised land, and moving the state further toward Orthodox law. Indeed, the other, anchoring half of the government majority, Netanyahu’s Likud party, includes many rank-and-file members who also openly identify with religious Zionism. (The new minister of environmental protection, Idit Silman, is a former backbencher of a religious-Zionist party who jumped to the Likud last summer, abandoning the “change government” of Yair Lapid and Naftali Bennett, thereby helping to bring it down.)
While in theory Israel is still a secular country, in actually it is drifting towards religious zealotry and to becoming a true theocracy. My point is Israel was founded precariously as a "hybrid" democratic religious state. That balance has been violated and an insurgence of Orthodox Jewish zealotry is transforming the nation into something more resembling Iran than the founding secular socialist state. As protestors have remarked, they are repulsed by rabid Zionism and rightly so. I miss the old "hippie" Israel and its secular Jewish leaders.
Are you writing to get published by the college crowd with obscure words like " diaspora " or are you trying to impress us with your heady language? As a career broadcast TV newsman, I learned to write PLAIN ENGLISH so as to not exclude the majority of my potential readers. Academics should learn from that notion. Suggest you find a copy of Rudolf Flesch's book "How to Write, Speak, and Think More effectively." He's passed away but he was a well known consultant for lawyers and regulation writers to speak our language clearly.
Fwiw, I don’t consider “diaspora” to be an obscure term. Anyone who reads history will be familiar with the word—it’s often used when describing both the Jews and the Irish.
Greg Byron: You call yourself a journalist/newsman and you think diaspora is a ten dollar word? You didn't really go to school or do any reading before calling yourself a newsman, did you? Or did you mistakenly read the companion work How to Write More Dumb?
My undergrad degree is in journalism and my masters degree is in psychology. I know how to write in a broad variety of formats depending on the audience. I have a high regard for the Substack audience.
Here's another difficult word for you - "ad hominem" - Latin for attacking a person rather than staying focused on the facts. I notice you have no comment on the discussion but choose to attack my writing style instead. I am reminded of the words of Abraham Lincoln: "Better to remain silent and thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt." https://www.txst.edu/philosophy/resources/fallacy-definitions/Ad-Hominem.html
Oh, I. believe he can but we are all so caught up in the minutiae of the moment and the mythologies of the past we all remain in our “boxes.” How to secularism the Holy Land is a mind-blower.
Palestine was always multicultural, this is not a new development. Also, this is not a religious war and the conflict between the Israelis and Palestinians started before Israel was even a state. I'll remind you, there is considerable number of Christian Palestinians. This is a war about land first and foremost and who has a right to it and also about the methods used to secure and exercise those rights. The Israelis use systematic brutality to ensure what they think of as their rights. Furthermore, Zionism was secular to its core from its founding!
If it were simply a war about land, it could have been settled decades ago. The UN Partition Resolution envisioned two states. Israel agreed but on declaring its statehood it was attacked by tribal Palestinians and joined by neighboring Arab states Egypt and Jordan who had designs on Gaza and West Bank territories.
"After looking at alternatives, the UN proposed terminating the Mandate and partitioning Palestine into two independent States, one Palestinian Arab and the other Jewish, with Jerusalem internationalized (Resolution 181 (II) of 1947)." https://www.un.org/unispal/history/
The forgotten history of the region was heavily influenced by Amin al-Husseini, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem who was an ardent Nazi collaborator during WWII and adapted European fascist ideology to become the basis for the radical Islamist movement after the war. He was a rabid antisemitic and generally anti-Western. He was also implicated in the assassination of Jordanian King Abdullah I for collaborating with the West and the new state of Israel. https://johnhardman.substack.com/p/hitlers-grand-mufti
Yes, systematic brutality and terrorism has been prevalent in the region since the collapse of the Ottoman Empire after WWI. The PLO has a long violent history in the region which is why Palestinians are not welcomed now in Jordan, Egypt, and Lebanon.
"In 1969 Yasser Arafat, leader of Fatah, was named the PLO’s chairman. From the late 1960s the PLO organized and launched guerrilla attacks against Israel from its bases in Jordan, which prompted significant Israeli reprisals and led to instability within Jordan. This, in turn, brought the PLO into growing conflict with the government of King Hussein of Jordan in 1970, and in 1971 the PLO was forcibly expelled from the country by the Jordanian army. Thereafter the PLO shifted its bases to Lebanon and continued its attacks on Israel. The PLO’s relations with the Lebanese were tumultuous, and the organization soon became embroiled in Lebanon’s sectarian disputes and contributed to that country’s eventual slide into civil war. During that time, factions within the PLO shifted from attacks on military targets to a strategy of terrorism—a policy the organization fervently denied embracing—and a number of high-profile attacks, including bombings and aircraft hijackings, were staged by PLO operatives against Israeli and Western targets." https://www.britannica.com/topic/Palestine-Liberation-Organization
Yes, as I mentioned Israel was originally founded by secular Jews with a distinct socialist agenda. It has only been recently that the Ultra-Orthodox sects have gained political power pulling the nation to the far right politically and the rising militancy against the Arabs in the region. The present struggle is between ultra-conservative Islamists against Netanyahu's coalition of Ultra-Ortodox Jewish zealots. There is also the sub plot of Shi'a Iran infiltrating Sunni Islamist factions to cause turmoil with its rival Arab nations and to regain control of Jersaleum to muddy up the water. No, this is NOT a simple land dispute.
Oh, if only that simple. You left out the part about the 1947-48 civil war in Mandatory Palestine with Arabs and Jews fighting one another and the pathetic Brits caught in the crossfire. You are also leaving out Nazi sympathizer and rabid antisemite Al-Husayni Grand Mufti of Jerusalem who lead the attacks on the new nation of Israel.
"On 22 February 1948, supporters of Mohammad Amin al-Husayni organized, with the help of certain British deserters, three attacks against the Jewish community. Using car bombs aimed at the headquarters of the pro-Zionist Palestine Post newspaper, the Ben Yehuda St. market and the backyard of the Jewish Agency's offices, they killed 22, 53, and 13 Jewish people respectively, a total of 88 fatalities. Hundreds of others were injured." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1947–1948_civil_war_in_Mandatory_Palestine
Btw, Britain was hardly just caught in the crossfire. They were the deliberate target of the Zionists in such capers as the bombing of the King David Hotel, among other things
Then ALL theocracies must be disbanded. Why should Israel do that when Iran isn't doing that? Yes, I like living in a secular state where we are trying to keep church and state separate. But as long as there are other theocracies, Israel should keep its status as a Jewish state. The King of England is the head of the Church of England. So you got your Christian state right there. Iran is your Muslim state. Israel is your Jewish state. Are there Buddhist states? Tibet was one until Communist China got in there. The Dalai Lama lives in exile as the head of a Buddhist state. So there you are. . . .Keep Israel Jewish.
And, my point is much has changed since 1917 and this is an opportunity for self-reflection and an overdue revision of its original mandate. The Israel of the 20th century may not fit the 21st.
In Pennsyltucky, Tree of Life is Exhibit A. 11 murdered. The perp was influenced by Soros hatred. Happened long before Oct. 7, 2023. Here's my brother's book .Lives 2 blocks from the murder scene, is a member. He depicts us as honorary white people, not the kind that represent MAGA. . https://www.amazon.com/Tree-Other-Poems-Jonathan-Solomon/dp/1662872534
Unfortunately hatred resides in the collective racial subconscious of a large part of the population. C.G. Jung.
As a card carrying Semite, I don't think Robert has a handle on at all. He now recognizes that Biden has been clandestinely working on a solution, but after his false allegations the past couple of weeks he needs to apologize.
To get rid of Netanyahu, the most effective way is to elevate Benny Ganz. Even if the primary motivation of the protests may not be antisemitism, antisemites took advantage of the situation. Robert does not mention Benny Ganz, who leads in the polls in Israel, would displace Netanyahu, supports a two state solution, which is US policy, is at 85 %. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benny_Gantz
From onset, the Knesset had the ability to do a deal in principle on the table. There was a pause, but Hamas would not deal. Qatar, Egypt etc are not principals and are not honest brokers. Qatar is NOT a mediator. Qatar grants amnesty to murderers, rapists. Egypt and Jordan, only a few miles from the action refuse to accept innocent Gazans.
To me, card carrying Semite, the acid test is whether the leaders of those protests would support Ganz. to achieve removal of Netanyahu?
Congress makes appropriations. Besides Gaza, we were close to war with Iran, and some of the hostages in Gaza are US citizens. US ships have been attacked by Yemen, who says they did it to support Hamas. Hamas is a proxy of Iran and maybe Russia.
Meanwhile the Trump blueprint is laid out in Heritage foundation Project 2025. Reinstate Muslim bans. Concentration camps. Mass deportations. Trum allies want a country where only "Christians" have full citizenship.
Robert has not called out the bots, trolls and others who attribute congenital evil to all Jews, misrepresent the nature of Israel, which has an Arab Party, Arab members in the Knesset, and Arab Druze voluntarily serving in the army. I do not know this as a fact but I bet the Arab Party supports Ganz. What about Robert? What about the mayor of Dearborn? The leaders of the Columbia protests?
Nobody is protesting the hundreds of thousands of Arabs killed by their brethren in Syria and Yemen.
thank you for your thoughtful comments, Daniel. I, too live near the Tree of Life Synagogue and lost several close friends in that dreadful massacre which left a miasma of existential fear hanging over the city that iit seems will never go away. Witnessing unbridled hatred leaves a permanent scar on memories.
I agree that Netanyahu must be deposed. He and his power hungry cronies are a clear and present menace to the world. Benny Gantz is indeed part of the solution and though I support the idea of a two-stage solution in theory, I fear it will not eliminate the ingrained hatred that has poisoned the entire Middle East. Establishing a legitimate border between Palestine and Israel may provide merely a"formal" border between the two countries but it will be one that is easily breached by the smallest of hateful expressions from either side. I hate to sound so negative here but aside from divine intervention, we still have much work to do to correct our species flaws.
My sense of Mr. Reich is he’s been living in a fog when it comes to Israel and these protests. I still can’t get over his statement that some of the protesters “may be antisemitic”. Really, Robert? Ya think?
You’re reminding those of use who feel the intensity of this war, to spend some time in Israel and get a feel for what’s really happening. After all, if it goes wrong, it could be the start of WW3.
Do you know the definition of "Jew" as put forth by the orthodox who strongly oppose Zionism? If you did, I believe it would clear up a lot of the confusion.
Alan, I will offer my path as an example. Over a dozen years ago, I came to reject Christianity as a result of studying Torah/Tanakh. I am what orthodox Jews call a "Noahide." -- a non-Jew who is on the way to convert to Judaism.
My views come out of this life experience -- which has not been easy. But dedicating one's self to truth never is.
I am not a "reptile." To understand why some so-called orthodox corrupted themselves to service to nationalist idolatry, I recommend becoming familiar with Rabbi Yaakov Shapiro's work.
Agree. I see four strands in this conflict: the Israeli people (in favor); homicidal maniac Netanyahu (not in favor); the Palestinian people (in favor); the hate-filled, Iran- and China-funded terrorist group, Hamas (not in favor). Let's keep these four strands separate, shall we? I think they have little to do with each other, although of course they overlap to some degree. For instance, only 15% of the Israeli people support Netanyahu, according to a recent Israeli poll.
They (the Genocide supporters) use the term (antisemitism) to hopefully quell dissenters. Crying wolf too often and eventually no one believes you. Anti-Israel government is NOT ANTISEMITISM.
The injustice that has Americans and others angry is the math...Netanyahu has punished the loss of a thousand Jews with 25,000 mostly women and children as UNPROPORTIONAL. When we punish other nations for warlike activites OUR government tries to keep retaliation proportional. Clearly Netanyahu didn't... what kind of pressure in ISRAEL is on him for that mistake? (I presume he and his advisors don't believe it's a mistake, but is required to ferret out Hamas and do it quickly.
I do not understand why Israel can't blockade shipment of weapons into Palestinan areas just like all countries do to protect their borders. Why is Israel in such a hurry to weed Gaza of the terrorists there? Yes it does sound a bit like genocide.
Blaming every Jew, everywhere, for the actions of the state of Israel is the very quintessence of anti-semitism. I can't even begin to think of what would be a parallel to it.
But these campus protestors are holding all Jews in America responsible for the actions of Bibi Netanyahu--even though very few of them (and very few Israelis) support what he's doing.
Have you read or seen what's been said in the encampments? Those Jewish protestors are delusional. Being singled out as a Zionist, simply for being Jewish and denied passage to your classes or access to the library or to your dorm by these protestors, Jewish or not, is anti-semitism. They're best described as Chickens For Colonel Sanders.
Trust me, when they come for you, it won't matter. All they will see is that you're Jewish.
The residents of those kibbutzim in southern Israel who worked with and helped the residents of Gaza, were sympathetic to them, provided medical care, delivered their babies? Slaughtered along with everyone else on October 7.
Another great post. It's especially important for Jews to say that being against Israel's actions in Gaza does not constitute antisemitism. Thanks, Robert!
Some can't tell the players, even with a scorecard. Most American Jews, probably north of 70% are Democrats who opposed Netanyahu.. We are the babies thrown out with the bathwater.
I remember saying OCT 7th. "man.... if there was one cat us Jews don't need in power right now.... it's Netanyahu... He's gonna fuck this up." And a VERY important part of the story has just been swept under the rug.... Netanyahu was elected AS A HARDLINER. So how on earth is this guy even allowed to go near power after OCT 7th happens under his watch?! He got intel from egypt. He had displaced military elements to the west bank front.... Day 1--you're gone, awaiting trial. Next in line, you're up.
I dunno man... I'm a 35 year old jew. man after Oct 7th... I knew progressive Jews that were wayyy too quiet if they had a problem and some openly "not condemning" the blanket flattening of Gaza. I tried to record as much as I could. I made sure I'm on the record as opposing it, while at the same time absolutely deploring those assholes from Oct 7th. They should meet justice. Bibi's response was the opposite of justice.
Yes, Completely wrong, 80 years of attacks from terrorists. Hamas has set up civilians to take the fall out as they continue their decades long assault with the intention of destroying the state of Israel.
And so the civilians taking the fall are the metaphorical inhabitants of the Warsaw ghetto? I find the analogy between the USA designating reservations for native Americans and the segregation of the gazans into a strip uncomfortably similar. Wouldn’t it be better for Israel to establish Equal Opportunity programs for the natives to bring them into normal society rather than to banish them to a bantustan? You’re minding me that I need to visit Israel to check out the vibe.
I’ve lost your analogy between Gaza and Ghetto, The Ghetto was part of Germany’s genocidal war against Jews. Gazans are Hamas subjects who are used as fodder for Hamas' genocidal war against Israel.
Native Americans in the US are indigenous peoples. Jews are indigenous peoples of the area where Israel is now a state. There were others in the area when Israel became a state. Bedouins, Christians, Arabs. There was a territory named Palestine. There was not a people called the Palestinians. The folks now called Palestinians are fronting for Iran, Arab states and terrorist organizations (Hezbollah) who all have been and are dedicated to the destruction of a Jewish state. Palestinians were announced into being by Yasser Arafat.
We need to be able to criticize power hungry men…Bibi…and not be anti Israel. Many Israelis hate what bibi and his buddies are doing. Why do 40,000 Palestinians have to die, because of Hamas.
I've been confused by Israel's tactics, too. If you supposedly give advance warning to the civilian population in an area of Gaza because of an impending incursion, doesn't that give Hamas also the warning to evacuate? And then I think there really isn't adequate time for the masses of civilians to actually evacuate, and to where are they supposed to evacuate?
It’s a land grab. Hamas gave Netanyahu an excuse for a land grab and he had pursued it relentlessly ever since. It’s not a war against Hamas. It’s a war against the Palestinian people, including children, women and the elderly, who have suffered disproportionately. Yet most of the comments I have read so far are about Israel, Israelis and Jews. I thought Dr.Reich’s piece was about Gaza.
Hamas did not kill those thousands of innocent children. Hamas did not kill those aid workers from World Central Kitchen.
You are claiming that Israel can kill wantonly and indiscriminately -- and blame everything on Hamas -- which Israel helped to create. Can you perceive how perverted and evil that is?
btw > the VAST majority of Israelis SUPPORT the actions being taken by the IDF.
I'm Jewish, I had family fight the Nazi's in the french resistance. Some died in camps. "Why do 40,000 Palestinians have to die, because of Hamas" is not a talking point. IDF flattened Gaza. There's no homes to go back to. Hamas is horrible. Bibi just ensured their growth for the foreseeable future. If you kill a person's family members, they will put aside political differences to fight back. This is not rocket science. Bibi must be gone ASAP. Israel must have a constitutional reformation and be of one new state. I'm cool with a two state solution, but at this point, there's no political leverage for it. BTW, Bibi's kids--they stayed in Miami as he send our Jewish brothers and sisters to fight for his ego....
I never liked Bibi and I think it's perfectly fine to change prime ministers during a war, but that's an internal issue for Israel to decide. It's not really the meat and potatoes of what's happening in Gaza, which is an existential war for Israel's survival. ANY Israeli prime minister will recognize that and behave accordingly.
Here's my understanding: the U.S. gives Israel x dollars (don't know off hand how much). Much / most of that money immediately goes back to the U.S. in the purchase of military equipment from our military industrial complex -- so a few large American companies are benefiting from this arrangement big time (corporate socialism at its finest, but okay). At some point in the past the U.S. told Israel not to bother developing their own military stuff -- cause it was good for us. Israel NEVER should have listened to that. Of course they manufacture some things, and they could develop everything else but it would take time. If there's one thing we should all have learned from COVID is you don't rely on other countries for essentials.
Essentials: food, medicine, weapons, energy — all need to be ensured by the federal government. Let the free market reign over Faberge eggs, Guarneri violins, and Babe Ruth baseball cards.
Palestinians are actually culpably responsible as they choose to act as human shields for the Hamas terrorists during the War with the State of Israel; Which demonstrates the erroneous number of deaths as reported by the dubious Hamas… In other words it’s collateral damage… C’est la vie
Your experienced advice on what is and isn’t antisemitism, is much appreciated. One can be pro Israel AND pro Palestine at the same time. These protests are about the inhumanity of war. We need to be savvy enough to discern the noise from political agitators who are using this moment to sow chaos. It suits their purpose. Don’t be drawn in! We—collectively—can be better than this. Human misery in all its forms should upset our sensibilities. Through empathy and compassion we can pursue a better world.
How is it possible to be both pro Israel and pro Palestinian? I'm curious. I haven't found a way. I've gone from being a default Zionist (brought up that way) to now feeling like it was never ok to uproot and expel people who have lived there long before the issue of the Holocaust took place. If Jews have a right to the land because they (we) were there thousands of years ago, on principle don't Native Americans have this same right? And I now know that Israel's location was eventually decided to be former Palestine, but areas in Australia, South Africa, and I think Canada (among a few others) were considered. I wonder why no one made Germany save a tiny little slice of land equivalent to the area of Palestine to give to a new Jewish state. Or maybe not a theocracy, but a place where the safety of Jews would be assured somehow. So I now find myself pro-Palestinian, and though I love so many people who are fellow Jews, and I love Jewish culture, humor, warmth, camaraderie, I cannot condone what took place, what Palestinians call the Nakba. It wasn't colonization, even, which people argue is bad enough, it was something far worse. I don't blame the Palestinians for continuing their fight, though I object to all violence. Hurt people hurt people.
Hi, Anon. It is getting harder and harder to be both. At one time, two years ago, I would have said that those who are pro Israel are usually also pro Palestine. Those who are pro Palestine are usually anti-Israel. By that I meant I supported a two state solution.
I still support a two state solution. But neither the Israelis not the Palestinians support it and my vote is meaningless. I have modified my statement to, "I support a two-state solution but I doubt that it will occur in my lifetime."
Such a good question and I can empathize with the angst you are experiencing. Being pro Israel and pro Palestinian accepts what came before. We cannot simply go back. BUT what we can do is acknowledge Israel’s right to exist while also having it adhere to commitments and objectives previously agreed to (without cheating), AND recognizes the sovereignty of the Palestinians and their same right to freedom and security. It’s not an easy path, but it is the right path. Agitators all around are using the chaos to keep everything frothed up. What both sides want is freedom and safety. If the Palestinians are denied any autonomy, Israel will never have peace. What Hamas did was just plain evil—and the response has in many ways been horrifyingly callus at the very least. Both sides need to see the humanity of the other. The Arab world and the U.S. lead coalition of EU nations support an approach that would finally have the Arab world acknowledge Israel—to which Netanyahu and his far right coalition—so far are rejecting. Netanyahu wants to stay out of jail so in my mind he is not a fair negotiator. Hamas needs to be held accountable. The Palestinians will need help rebuilding. If Israel helped those efforts, it would go a long way (akin to U.S. help for Japan after the bombs). There can be no safe harbor for terrorism. But the limbo Palestine is in… is hellish too. By being able to acknowledge that Israel isn’t absolutely in the right with their dehumanizing tactical response—while also acknowledging their right to exist and to be safe, is both pro Israel and pro Palestine. I think this mindset works in all the other circumstances of displacement/colonization. By acknowledging the past and moving forward with a shared commitment to make it better—treating all with dignity and respect—most would see the opportunity to get out of the downward spiral of doing the same thing and expecting a different outcome. Sadly in all of these circumstances, there are some on both sides that thrive on the hate. We can’t let them own the narrative. It’s not easy. It’s not perfect. But it’s a real opportunity to make our world better and safer for all.
In defending Israel’s right to exist, you would be saying it’s OK for a religio-ethnic group to establish a government. No problem there, right? But then dig deeper: what are the laws of that ethno-religious state? Do they have a Bill of Rights analogous to the USA’s? Do they have a bedrock constitution? Does this state adhere to the 1946 United Nations universal declaration of human rights?
Teddi Davis I 100% agree with your perspective. I think that until the LEADERSHIP of Israel and Hamas decide to start over and make it safe for both (which means each side must agree not to do things that are harmful to the other and then KEEP THEIR WORD), then maybe there can be peace. Over the years, neither group has kept their word on agreements made, and therefore neither can be trusted. It's very difficult to make agreements in good faith when neither side will keep their word. So until the very hard commitments are made in each side's heart of hearts for peace, and then they back it up with proper action, there will always be strife. I am sorely disappointed that the Israeli leadership has deliberately made it hard for Palestinian civilians to work, have access to decent food and medical care, and to allow land promised as theirs (years ago) be gradually usurped by Jewish settlers, etc. And then, what Hamas did on Oct. 7, and over the years, the continual assaults on Israel with rockets, etc. I also think that neighboring Arab nations should lend a hand with the refugees instead of rejecting them. I absolutely hate what I've seen happening over the years (I'm 70). There is so much hostility and injury (and dishonesty when promises are made but not kept) that I wonder if there will ever be peace between the two. This puts in terrible relief the failings of human nature. People hold grudges, nurture hate, want revenge, want power. These are not the ways to peace. I pray that one day humanity will see a different way to be with each other. If the leadership won't commit to doing the right thing, then the suffering will continue.
Actually, the descendants of Adam and Eve might be the rightful owners of the area between the Tigris and Euphrates. Aren’t we all descendants of those two? If so, this internecene fighting degrades us all.
I watched the Ken Burns documentary on Sunday on PBS: The US and the Holocaust.
I encourage everyone to watch it. Although I remember reading Babi Yar in high school, this documentary made me cry.
“And it cannot be denied that, although we accepted more refugees than any other sovereign nation, America could have done so much more to help the millions of desperate people fleeing Nazi persecution.” - Ken Burns
Yes, and I think some of our unconditional support of Israel can be traced back to our collective guilt at having turned so many Jewish people away. That said, the US has an obligation to respond in real time to the slaughter of Palestinians.
The U.S. and the Allies didn't support the creation of Israel out of guilt. They did it because they didn't want Jewish refugees in their own countries. Israel came into being because of anti-semitism--that of the Nazis, and that of the Allies.
It seems that the United States and western Europe seek to punish Palestinians for the Holocaust. To quote filmmaker Michael Moore, Palestinians didn't build Auschwitz.
Reacting to Biden's recent comments, Israel's Minister of National Security, Itamar Ben-Gvir -- a Kahanist -- posted to social media that "Biden LOVES Hamas."
No matter how many billions. No matter how many vetoes in the UN. No matter how many innocent lives are destroyed -- just TRY and draw a line against Zionist atrocities, and this happens.
This is where it's sticky, I get it. Understand this: Western values include tolerance, democracy, individualism (up to a point), and a secular rule of law (among other things). BUT the TOLERANT must no tolerate INTOLERANCE. It's a difficult position to be in. We have to be tough when attacked; we have to be willing to do what is basically antithetical to our ideology -- we have to fight and kill when necessary. Then, when the enemy is subdued, we can go back to being empathetic and tolerant. Otherwise, the intolerant will simply take over -- and then it's ALL OVER. How we "talk" is not really important. It's all about actions. Remember the U.S. in WW2. We fought hard and we fought strong. Understand also: love and peace and negotiations are seen as weakness by the intolerant, especially in the Middle East. We are not dealing with a democratic western country with whom we have a difference. This is a fight to the death. We, the West, cannot afford to be "nice." Nice will get us eradicated.
“The oppression that Jewish people have experienced for hundreds if not thousands of years has taught Jews the necessity of standing up to injustice — whatever its form and whenever it appears.”
This is also true of most people who have experienced oppression. While there will always be exceptions (think Clarence Thomas), the experience of injustice is typically a wake up call to see the injustice that is experienced by others. I grew up Catholic in Northern Ireland in the sixties and seventies and experienced prejudice from the police and British army. My experience was at the milder end of the spectrum for sure but it was notable nonetheless.
I along with most people from the Catholic community in Northern Ireland have a heightened sensitivity to injustice inflicted on others. In fact there has long been a close bond between the Catholic community in Northern Ireland and the plight of the Palestinian people born, not from hatred of Jews but from empathy for the Palestinians.
Walk through any nationalist (Catholic) areas in Northern Ireland and you are as likely to see Palestinian flags and murals as Irish ones. Conversely, in the loyalist (Protestant) areas you are likely to see flags and murals identifying with Israel. Forty years ago the two communities were on opposite sides of the apartheid issue too.
As humans we tend to identify with those who are more like us. This tendency extends beyond physical resemblances such as skin color to include those whose lived experience resembles our own.
From what I understand, "anti-semitic" was a term from the European college campuses over a hundred years ago to give intellectual vigour to what was simply Jew hating. Jew hating is the appropriate term. Anti-semitic is a dodge.
From Brittanica: “ The term anti-Semitism was coined in 1879 by the German agitator Wilhelm Marr to designate the anti-Jewish campaigns underway in central Europe at that time. ”
Yes, and by calling Jews "Semites" the Nazis categorized them as a separate "race," inferior and a threat to the "purity" of the Germanic "race." It is a classic example of economic resentment and scapegoating. Any social group can be similarly stereotyped and demonized, with tragic consequences. Consider the other genocides of the 20th century.
Jew-hatred and antisemitism are closely linked but, historically, they are not exactly the same. Antisemitism was, and maybe still is, a racial ideology--it denies humanity to the Jew. Jew hatred is completely irrational.
Jews are not the only Semites. Arabs are Semites. Antisemitism is NOT EXCLUSIVELY about Jews. Because it hasn’t been used to call out ARAB hate in the past, doesn’t make it any less valid. Now people who call out ZIONISTS are be called antisemitic. Which is TOTAL BS. If you don’t know the difference, I suggest you use GOOGLE.
Anti-Semitic people like white supremacists hate both Jews and Arabs- perhaps Arabs to a lesser extent- they are truly anti semites- antiSemitism is a European invention- not a middle-eastern one- the people of the middle-east became anti-Zionist due Zionism’s goal of establishing a Jewish only state in Palestine which resulted in ethnic cleansing and now it is bordering Genocide of native Palestinians. Anti-Zionism does not mean Anti-Jewish or antisemitism- there are more Christian Zionists than Jewish ones and not all Jews are Zionists-
Guess what? "Palestinians" are not native to the area. They are the descendants of Arabs who invaded, long after the Jews lived there. The indigenous population is Jewish.
Let us deal with facts, not political propaganda, ethnic identity, religious myths
The word Semite is supposedly meant to refer to a descendant of Shem
Shem was one of the fictional Noahs Sons, Ashkenazi are supposedly descended from Japet the son of Gomer, not Shem.
The Fictional Abraham descends from Shem, According to the Jews own telling Isaac is the father of Jacob and grandfather of Judah, from which the Jews claim descent
the NORTHERN Arabs claim descent from Ishmael, the brother of Isaac, therefore by the lights of the two myths, NORTHERN Arabs (not Yemeni's) are Semities as well as Sephardic Jews.
Israel has two Jewish populations, Ashenazi who are 45% of the Population and Mizrahi or Sephardic Jews which are 55% of the population
Ashkenazim on the other hand: The name Ashkenazi derives from the biblical figure of Ashkenaz, the first son of Gomer, son of Japhet, son of Noah, and a Japhetic patriarch in the Table of Nations (Genesis 10)
It is so ironic that the Trump Republican party which embraces neo Nazis and white supremacists also embraces Netanyahu and the attempted genocide in Gaza and the West Bank. Meanwhile, the Democratic party which embraces diversity and has little anti semitism, gets attacked for anti semitism because they oppose the wholesale killing of Palestinians.
Not so fast. Not so simple. Many Democratic Party legislators(whose campaigns are funded by AIPAC and Israel-supporting mega-donors)are also hollering about anti-semitism(eg, Schumer)and accusing student protestors--who are comprised of Jews, Muslims, Christians, atheists banding together--of being anti semitic. As as been said here before, being supportive of Palestinian liberation is not "anti-semitic".
I must be getting old. I seem to have forgotten the many students protesting and taking over campus areas, terrorizing people of Russian origins living in the U.S., when Russia invaded Ukraine, bombing its cities and killing thousands, torturing and murdering civilians, and kidnapping Ukrainian children, transporting them to Russia. Oh, wait. That didn't happen.
The US and our tax dollars aren’t funding Russia’s aggression, and Russia’s oppression of Ukrainians and land grab hasn’t been dragging on and ignored by the west for 75 years. yep, you’re way old and blind if you can’t see those very clear distinctions. And your bias blinders are on way too tight.
Let's remember Trump moved the American embassy to Jerusalem after a string of presidents lied, saying they would. He also was behind the normalizations between Israel and four Arab states. My own theory born largely of ignorance is that Trump will take a vote wherever he can get it.
The Democrats haven't been pro-Israel for quite a while. They Democrat voters don't like the rich, westerners coming in and taking over the land of innocent people (even though almost every American, or the ancestor of almost every American, some of whom are Palestinians, have done that here and they're not going back to their homelands are they?). Equity has replaced equality. Jews are seen as having too much. Immigration to the US has shifted. The new group wants equity form themselves and someone is just going to have to lose in that.
I know it is complicated. I am a lifelong liberal. But I see these things happening and it is hard to pretend otherwise.
Anti-semistism in every sense of the word is Vile, Cruel, Inhumane and totally unacceptable. We must continue to fight to end this atrocious mindset of irrational, illogical pure hate and evil towards the Jewish people.
Additionally, Benjamin Netanyahu must be driven out of office. He's evil. It's like the fox guarding the hen house.
I disagree with your premise that antisemitism is not a motivation for the current campus protests. "From the river to the sea" is certainly antisemitism at its worst.
Exactly. Israel enacted "from the river to the sea" and that's ok, but the people from which it was taken are accused of genocidal motivation if they say it
Why does a Jewish person’s interpretation of that slogan have more weight/value than a Palestinian person’s interpretation? What gives you the right to define it, and dismiss someone else’s definition? please do check your privilege. Built in bias in favor of Jews and against Palestinians fuels anti-semitism.
This mindset (as to who gets to define what a phrase means to one side or the other) came up during the discussions over the renaming of the Washington Redskin. Similarly some used “Black lives matter” to claim whites weren’t important. I didn’t understand how hurtful it was to indigenous people, or how fear could make people shut their eyes to what is happening. Once I understood, I knew the name had to change, and would have preferred “All lives matter.” For a Jewish person that slogan means there would be no Israel. College students aren’t really advocating the elimination of Israel, but they are parroting the phrase. I believe college students are being manipulated by external forces to create chaos. Why aren’t other ongoing atrocities garnering any attention? What the college students really want is for civilians to be protected. Hamas should be held accountable, but that does not justify massive civilian casualties in Gaza. Words matter and we have to try to understand each other if we are going to achieve lasting peace for Israel AND Palestine. The phrase doesn’t articulated the issue well and should not be used.
Trace the evolution of the Likud party, and readers will find it goes straight back to fascist Mussolini and his Black Shirts. The right-wing, militaristic, anti-Judaism faction of Zionism LOVED European fascism. Totally opposed to the principles of Judaism.
Unfortunately, many of the university protestors have not educated themselves as to the meaning and implication of those words. At any rate, abhorrence of and objection to Netanyahu’s Gaza policy is NOT antisemitism.
Thank you for this necessary clarification. Demonstrators are not doing enough to emphasize that being against Netanyahu’s government and its policies is NOT antisemitism. This claim is being used to delegitimize honest and necessary protest.
That these protests against the killing of women and children have not been going on in reaction to similar tragedies of greater magnitude in West Africa, East Africa, Myanmar, Sri Lanka, and other locations around the globe illustrates that it is only when the Jews try to defend their nation that it is deemed "genocide" (it does not meet the definition) and is objectionable, leading to calls for ceasefire (that is tantamount to surrender), divestment, and elimination of Israel (unless the river is the Jordan and the Sea is the Persian Gulf!) Not every protester is antisemitic, but when the shoe fits...
Perhaps college students aren't protesting similar tragedies of greater magnitude because these are not being funded by US dollars, or, if they are, the connection is more opaque.
U.S. was selling arms to Saudi Arabia for war in Yemen against Houthis for years. Obama himself ordered drone assassinations in Yemen, including American citizens. While there was some opposition to it, nothing like what we see now.
And when our own administration was engaging in mass child torture at the southern border -- clearly, by their own words, and not just funding, perpetrating themselves -- also, while there was some outrage, there was nothing close to what we're seeing now.
Which is not to say that no one in these protests has pure motivations, but clearly the main driving force is something else. And if you listen to organizers -- it's clearly antisemitism
Of course it’s possible! I never said it’s not possible. I even specifically said some / many participants may have pure motives such as this one, or generic opposition to war or something else like that (whether stupid / uninformed / delusional / rosy-eyed or not, doesn’t matter — but not evil or hate-based). But if one looks at the phenomenon as a whole, it’s clear that it’s driving force is not that.
It’s not “anti Israeli war tactics” and it’s not “without being antisemitic” (even though it’s possible to be both).
I was responding to the comment “Perhaps college students aren't protesting similar tragedies of greater magnitude because these are not being funded by US dollars, or, if they are, the connection is more opaque.”
In response I brought up two cases where in one US dollars did find that, and in the other US itself was perpetrating a crime against humanity, with thousands of children as victims, on its own territory. One would think that’s a clearer connection than funding Israel (which btw also funds Iron Dome without which Hamas rockets would have killed 100k+ Israelis since October).
There are more protests and they are louder, more energetic now, than in either of those two cases? So what’s the difference?
One difference that it’s the Jews they’re protesting against.
Now one may argue it’s not the main factor, but at this point the burden of proof is on them — at least show other factors and explain why they are more important.
I could have stopped here and wait for the proof, but I’ll add more.
The people with pure motives protest what is shown to them. And protest more what is shown to them more frequently and forcefully. These protests have organizers, they are networked groups, many antisemitic.
They shout antisemitic slogans at the protests, and people mindlessly repeat them; they don’t let Jews pass through campus — that’s a picture right from 1938. That’s not being denounced (mostly because it’s organizers doing that) and participants don’t leave or distance themselves from it.
I agree "(T)hese protests have organizers, they are networked groups, many antisemitic." And you agree with my premise as well that, "They shout antisemitic slogans at the protests, and people MINDLESSLY (my emphasis) repeat them..." The solution? I don't know but I try to better educate the ill-informed. Are there anti-semites agitating? YES. Does it make me crazy that these colleges students are being used, and don't apparently have the capacity to dig deeper. ABSOLUTELY. They don't see they're being used by organizers who are anti-semitic. It's a frustrating complexity that MAGA House members will jump on because it serves their purpose to create chaos to undermine Biden.
Oh yeah it’s definitely infuriating that MAGA just try to use it all for scores.
As to the solution, better educate sure is the long term one, although not too clear how to achieve it.
As to short term, from what I’ve seen, the earlier the protests were dispersed the less problematic they were. Didn’t always have to be that brutal, but once it’s over certain line, the administration can’t contain it without calling in the cops… and.. cops are cops.
Also, the earlier dispersals correlated with being in a Southern university, so you also get Southern cops
(By the way, kudos to Joe Biden for standing up to Netanyahu — saying he will block the delivery of weapons that could be fired into densely populated areas of Rafah.
“Our rulers don’t think about things like normal people think about them. They don’t think in terms of doing the right thing or acting in a way that benefits everyone. They don’t think in terms of truth and honesty or the lack thereof. They only think in terms of what stories people are telling each other, and how those stories can be changed in a way that advances the interests of the empire they manage.
Empire managers — and highly manipulative people in general — do not use language in the way that normal people use it. Normal human beings use language to connect and communicate, whereas manipulators use it only to extract things they want from people and exert control over them. They do this by working to control the narratives that people have about their material reality.”
Yeah... think Reich has some great points, when it comes to inequality and the challenges it brings to society, and how we need unions to fight for a more equal world.
But saying Biden is "standing up" to Bibi, seems a bit... naive? Biden has been an agressive supporter for Israel his whole life.
Also, even if Biden is - finally - stopping supplying Israel with weapons, Gaza is aldready at a point, where millions of people have had their lives destroyed, and it will take (at least) a generation to rebuild Gaza again.
Agreed. Reich, and far too many of the liberal commenters here, similarly to Heather Cox Richardson and her adherents, while offering decent critique of wealth inequality and the GOP nuthouse, fall short when it comes to acknowledging Democratic Party complicity in our current malaise, as well as mistakenly having faith that the Democrats are capable of throwing off the yoke of corporate ownership in order to fix it. Lesser evil politics is what got us here; it won’t fix what ails us. We can’t save democracy, because we don’t have one; the corporate coup was entrenched when the Clintons/Obamas praised the Reagans/Bushes instead of holding them accountable for criminal behavior. We have to build a new democracy from the grassroots, and neither party in the current duopoly cares about what the people think.
The continual conflation of the actions of the nation-state named Israel with the people who are Jewish continues to confound me.
"Never waste a perfectly good crisis."
Israel was established as a state for stateless Jews after WWII. Its purpose was to be a Jewish state as a rallying point for diaspora from all corners of the globe. At the time Jewish was considered a "race" more than simply a religion. All types of Jews were persecuted collectively regardless of specific national heritage or form of worship.
Fast forward several decades and now Israel is a modern multi-cultural nation comprised of many secular Jews, Christians, Muslims, and other religious affiliations. Israel is an anomaly in a secularized world being a theocracy - a religion-based state. A separation of religion and state is seen as necessary and stabilizing in multi-cultural societies.
It is not simply coincidence that the current turmoil in the Middle East can be attributed to a clash of two theocracies - Israel and Iran. What could have been a disagreement between two nation-states has erupted into a holy war over the fate of the Holy City of Jerusalem. Religious fanaticism's first casualty is reason and logic. Iran-backed Hamas will sacrifice themselves and the entire population of Gaza as sacred martyrs for a religious cause. This is not about the states of Palestine and Israel, but a holy war over the Holy Land and as such there can be no compromise. https://johnhardman.substack.com/p/tower-of-babel-in-the-holy-land
Israel is fighting two wars - one with the Islamists and the other internally with Ultra-Orthodox Jews. The only way to disengage is for Israel to declare itself a secular state and to remove the Star of David from its national flag. Just as the flags of other modern nations have morphed over time, it is now Israel's time to let go of its founding Zionism and embrace a new mandate as a modern secular state open to a multitude of cultures and religions. Until then, any action that the state of Israel takes is construed as a religious act in a region with a long, sad history of holy wars. Until religion is removed from Israeli and Palestinian politics there will be no peace. https://johnhardman.substack.com/p/israel-iran-war-second-nekba
Israel is not a theocracy. You are confusing a government based on religious law (like Iran), with the need for a state belonging to the ethnic group known as Jews. Why do Jews need a state? Because a legitimate sovereign state has a legitimate right to an army which can defend itself. Without that protection, you get six million dead in ovens and mass graves. That's the whole story. Israel is a democracy with many different groups enjoying full citizenship and rights, but Jews are the majority. This is not a holy war. Israel allows Muslims to worship at their sites; it's not really a problem. The minority of Orthodox Jews are often annoying, but so are MAGA Republicans -- everyone gets a voice. As far as removing the Star of David from its flag, again, that star is not just a religious symbol. It has represented a nation and a people for some 3,000 years. (It's laughable how only Israel has people telling it what to put on its flag, how to fight an existential war, how to think, blah blah blah, yada yada yada. It's all part of the perennial anti-semitism).
Israel is not a democracy and never has been. It is a Jewish supremacist state, codified by law in 2018. It exists primarily for Jews. There are over 60 laws restricting the rights of non-Jews, making everyone else, including the indigenous Palestinian population, including Christian Palestinians, second class citizens. I've seen podcasts of Palestinians living in Israel and in Gaza and they are made to feel inferior and unwanted. It's an American fantasy that everybody's living together in Israel happily.
Your statement that "Israel allows Muslims to worship at their sites" is unfortunately false; as a matter of fact it's this very point that initiated the Oct. 7 attacks. Israel had been raiding the al-Aqsa mosque, one of the holiest in Islam, repeatedly, beating up worshippers in the process. Hamas repeatedly warned Israel there would be consequences if Israel didn't stop. Israel kept raiding.
Most of the rest of the world, certainly the Global South, sees Israel/Palestine as a classic case of settler colonialism. European (Jews) export their problems and prejudices to a weaker country outside themselves (why wasn't Israel established in Germany or Poland if in recompense for the Holocaust?), slaughter the natives, and grab the land for their own purposes. The Global South sees Jews as being neither favored (chosen people), nor privileged (owed something for the Holocaust). And believe me, the Global South knows genocide.
So the Israeli parliament isn't real? Hotly contested elections are a phantom? Independent courts a fantasy?
The existence of antidemocratic forces doesn't negate that Israel has been and remains a vibrant democracy.
The European colonialism claim is equally baseless. Jews have a many millenia old claim and a very significant portion of the nation is comprised of Jews who were expelled from neighboring Arab countries, many thousands of Russian refugees and Ethiopians.
No one said Israel doesn't have a parliament or contested elections; you are twisting my words. I said the Israeli parliament represents the interests of Jews. Israel's been declared an apartheid state by Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, and smaller orgs like the American Friends Service Committee (Quakers), and B'Tselem, an Israeli human rights group. It is anything but a "vibrant democracy".
The same about "independent courts", at least concerning Palestinians. Israel currently holds over 9000 Palestinians (there were 6000 before Oct. 7), including several hundred children, in prisons, most in indefinite detention without charges or trial. Palestinians that do come to trial are tried in military, not civil, courts, where the conviction rate is over 99%.
Like it or not, settler colonialism is how the Global South sees Israel/Palestine. Were Jews expelled from Arab countries before or after 1948?
The occupied territories are, well, occupied. There was a war, in fact several. While I certainly don't want Gaza and the West Bank to be annexed, be careful what you wish for.
Mostly in 1948, more in later years. It's not hard to find out if you look. When you do, you'll see it's just one portion of millenia of expulsions.
The global south's view is hardly objective, granted with reason, but still far from objective.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsions_and_exoduses_of_Jews
Elections are the pap that autocrats throw to populations to try to delude them into thinking they have a democracy. I don't know how it works in Israel so I will assume it is the same as in the U.S. Elections put the population to sleep, thinking anyone cares about their preferences, then the elected are free to sell their votes to the highest bidder (necessarily the rich since they have the highest money pots by definition), and the population's supposed preferences can be forgotten about until the next election. Majorities in the U.S. want available abortions, universal healthcare, diplomacy not war and etc. but do the elected representatives give a damn? Not at all. Democracy? That's BS. We have a representational autocracy. The Constitution was written to insure that.
That's a nice little story that collapses a lot of complexity into an excuse for surrendering your agency.
It's hard to move any society to be more caring and equitable, but it's possible even with a structurally flawed representative democracy.
More people today have access to healthcare than ever in America. Is it sufficient? No. Is it possible to make it better? The progress made so far says yes. Will it be hard and take constant work? Of course.
Israel has been more progressive in some areas, but the constant pressure of living among nations that, by and large, have been immensely hostile since before independence cannot help but distort the liberal values the country was founded upon.
It's all too easy for populist demagogues to harness real or imagined threats to undermine democracy. But demagogues can be defeated and we need to all work together here and abroad to do so.
Obviously you are not someone who can get pregnant. You are not of the LGBTQi community, or BIPOC community, or someone struggling to survive on social security or SSDI. I guess you take your Medicare for granted if you're old enough.
Maybe you're just a Russian/Koch bot. Whatever you are, your elaboration on the classic PR line of the Super Rich ("all politicians are the same") is nihilistic and doing their work for free. I say, #getoutthevote #bethechange
Hasbara strawmen.
Or not.
"There are no government statistics categorizing Israeli Jews as "Ashkenazi", "Mizrahi", etc, but studies and estimates have been conducted. In a 2019 study, in a sample meant to be representative of the Israeli Jewish population, about 44.9% percent of Israel's Jewish population were categorized as Mizrahi (defined as having grandparents born in North Africa or Asia), 31.8% were categorized as Ashkenazi (defined as having grandparents born in Europe, the Americas, Oceania and South Africa), 12.4% as "Soviet" (defined as having progenitors who came from the ex-USSR in 1989 or later), about 3% as Beta Israel (Ethiopia) and 7.9% as a mix of these, or other Jewish groups."
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Israel
Disinformation. Arab judges. Arabs in the Knesset. Arab Party.
I've been told this before. Arabs may be in the government but they appear to have a negligible effect on policy, assuming they have the best interests of their own people at heart. Assume they're not for starving Palestinian children or bombing hospitals. The ones serving may be Israeli puppets serving Israeli interests (kind of like the discredited (in the eyes of Palestinians) Palestinian Authority), or they may be window dressing.
Hasbara retort.
what does that mean, please?
Thank you!!
Real quick: Al-Aqsa was built ON TOP of the Jewish Temple. Muslims freely visit Al-Aqsa, while Jews are prohibited. EVERY citizen of Israel has the exact same rights. Gaza is NOT Israel. It is governed by Hamas.
Jews may be prohibited from going to al-Aqsa but they go there anyway, and frequently. It was the raids there that triggered Oct. 7. Israel's claims that the Oct. 7 attacks were unprovoked is baseless.
When you say things like every citizen of Israel has the same rights, you reveal you don't know what you're talking about. I mentioned in a post above Israel's been declared an apartheid state by Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, the American Friends Service Committee (Quakers), and B'Tselem, an Israeli human rights group.
Israel is an occupying force that controls both Gaza and the West Bank.
It's laid a siege on Gaza for the past 18 years (ever since Hamas was elected in) and controls everything that goes in and out. It limited food and medical supplies even before Oct. 7. Most Palestinians are very poor because Israel has destroyed their economy while Israelis are prosperous - this is by design. Hamas runs day to day affairs in Gaza as part of locals masking the face of occupation, a strategy long employed by occupying countries.
Israel has an enormously effective propaganda machine, and western media strenuously limit the Palestinian point of view. You might consider getting the viewpoints of actual Palestinians, and not just that of Israel.
Thank you for your continual accuracy and honesty Patricia.
Hasbara lies.
Please, read more. Jews are not all powerful colonialist. They had no such rights or freedoms. Arabs on the other hand, were the original slave holders of white women and others for centuries.
Israel was not in the mosque. The raid on October 7th had been planned for two years. That's how long it took to get organized to kill Jews, who went out of their way to be nice to their neighbors, taking them to hospitals, helping to irrigate crops, the like.
Palestinians would be hugely surprised that Israelis are "nice neighbors" given that they regularly steal Palestinian land, drive them from their homes (often in the middle of the night), burn their crops, subject them to 600 checkpoints in Gaza alone restricting freedom of movement, imprison them indefinitely without charges or trial, and, especially in the West Bank, murder them with impunity and no consequence.
The amount of Israeli propaganda is staggering.
Doesn't Israel have military administration of all the territories it won by war in 1967 (except the Sinai which it gave back to Egypt)? And doesn't it have total control over the all the electricity, water supply and internet connections in the territories it occupies, even though it ostensibly no longer "administers" the territories? including all of Gaza? And doesn't the Israeli government fund and arm Jewish Israelis for the purpose of forcibly taking over land from non-Jews in the West Bank? And isn't Israel supported with billions of US dollars in aid from other colonial powers, including the US?
And aren't those "rights" and privileges the same as those of a colonial power by any other name?
The tension between democracy and the ethno-religious state are at the breaking point.
The huge disparity in power between Israel, with a per capita GDP of over $58,000, and Gaza, with a per capita GDP of $3,800, while Israel controls all of Gaza's essentials, and has one of the largest military forces in the world, are also classically colonial.
We have been blinded too long by our love for Israel as the idea of a refuge for the Jewish people. A true homeland.
It's similar to the way that White Americans are just beginning to grasp the cost of our success to others. Key word "othering." The only chance for peace is to educate ourselves and to accept responsibility for our past transgressions again those less powerful and privileged, and to recognize our common humanity.
By doing so we might even have a chance to focus on our shared existential threat of climate change, caused by the forces of greed that also deliberately try to divide us.
What has become of the 800,000 Jewish people forcibly thrown out of Moslem nations . They lived in these countries for centuries. One fifth of the people in Israel are Moslem .Half the people in Israel are indigenous to the area. What percent of the people in Moslem nations are openly Jewish ? Why is it that the only people in the world expected to be good Christians are the Jews?
Silly lies.
It's sad and disheartening to find that this kind of thinking (or non-thinking) persists.
Your comment is non-thinking.
Would you please stop it with your arcane one-liners. Your comments are just a distraction.
This is a laughable statement in so many ways.
As an American & an Israeli ( My father fought in Golani- 1967- my grandfather fled poland, his entire family wiped out-met my grandmother in Russia, then went to Austria, then Israel when it became a state)
There has been nothing but a constant stream of attempts to wipe Israelies off the map since it's inception.
People like you that talk about Israel like this, have no actual clue how Israel really is.
This is how, and why there is so much disinformation, and falsities invading the narratives & making people hate.
uhh Do you know how many Muslims are in the IDF?
Have you ever seen a video of soldiers on a train, while one of them (muslim) is praying?
Why don't you talk about all the other countries that were created after WWII?
Jordan, Pakistan, etc.
The jews voted in favor of a two state solution back in 47' and the arabs said "noipe" " Fuck y ou guys" and declared war the day after the signatures.
They lost that war, and every war since.
They only wanted Israel back after Jews turned a Desert into a paradise via human innovation and technological advancement.
Oh, and btw? Why did Israel take 2 747s loaded with medical equiptment, and Medical staff to Haiti after the Earthquake?
So much so, the American doctors were so ashamed they had to direct "severe trauma patients" to the Israeli tents, because they, and ONLY they, brought MRI, CT scans, and every piece of Medical equiptment halfway around the world--and were the FIRST to respond.
They also did this in Chile, and many other countries, but you'll never hear about it- you know why?Because they don't have the need to boast their accolades to the entire world like others.
With your background you naturally embody the Jewish viewpoint and don't want to hear anything else.
The fact is Israel is trying to exterminate as many Palestinians as possible to do a massive land grab in Gaza. It has no interest in allowing the indigenous population anything.
The UN (controlled by western nations) had no right (other than that of force)to go in and carve Israel out of Palestine. The people living there at the time had no say in the confiscation of their lands and homes to create Israel, never received compensation of any kind, and had nothing to do with the Holocaust. If someone tried doing this to you, wouldn't you fight back?
People keep trying to justify Israel on the basis of a "best use" land theory, an "Arabs are savages and sub-human" theory, and Israel "does so much good in the world" theory. None of this justifies the theft of land and murder of the indigenous population.
Prior to the concept of Zionism in the late 19th century, Jews, Palestinians, Arabs, Greeks, and other groups lived in that area in relative peace and harmony. Antisemitism is a European idea, not a Middle Eastern one. But after the arrival of the Zionists everything changed.
I looked up Matt Himmelstein's claim that the Israelis sent medical equipment to Haiti after the earthquake in 2010. 80% of the reports were from Israeli sources but I can believe it. Jews have been helpers and doctors forever. The Jews I knew growing up were mostly socialist humanitarians and many of them became doctors. And most of all, Haitians don't threaten Israel in any way. But then Israel turns around and destroys all the hospitals in Gaza, and insures that many thousands will die of disease and starvation. Does anyone but me think that this more than cancels out a lone humanitarian mission to another distant country? I have thought for years that Israel's right wing plan was to depopulate Gaza radically, by genocide if necessary, and take all the land. And now it's happening. For me, this is nothing new and it has nothing to do with Oct. 7 events. This has been the plan forever. This is the real long term plan, not a 2-state and not a 1-state.
Why are you not so passionate about the other 26 ACTIVE wars that are going on?
Libya? Syria?
It's so strange to me that no one seems to give a flying fuck about ANY other war, other than the one involving the Jews.
It's genuinely astounding.
And what is your background?
We will never convince them. No matter what Israel does, it is wrong. So let's stop trying. Israel exists; we are not giving it up; we will fight to the death to keep it; the Gazans did nothing with the land handed over to them - they squandered pride real estate and built tunnels instead. They should learn how to be productive and stop whining.
Hasbara response.
In response to your statement: sorry, not true.
Kaliningrad! Set aside Kaliningrad as a homeland for European Jews. Near where they lived & were tortured & executed. Formerly Konigsberg in East Prussia, part of Germany, located between Poland & Lithuania, & then seized by the USSR & now an enclave of Russia, which doesn't deserve it.
UGH!
The far right in the U.S. consider America to be a "Christian nation" yet we do not have crucifixes displayed on our national flag. You are attempting to be logical when religious zealotry is existentially primal and illogical. The Star of David is a symbol of Judaism and Israel is symbolically a "Jewish nation."
The "minority of Orthodox Jews" are not simply a nuisance but politically prominent in the government of Israel with dangerous consequences. A majority of Israelis would like to be free of Netanyahu and his right-wing coalition but the war complicates the change in government. This is an opportunity for self-reflection and change. It would be a shame to waste it.
Well, I guess we know what the war is about, now. Thank you for pointing it out. "A majority of Israelis would like to be free of Netanyahu and his right-wing coalition but the war complicates the change in government." He and his cronies don't want a change in government and the people might be pushing for just that.
And how many Jewish and Muslim presidents have the U.S. had? Right, ZERO. So Christians are still running the show over here and yet they are whining about being ostracized. MAGATs are all over the place. I WISH we could get a Jewish POTUS. We DO have a Jewish second gentleman--a tiny bit of progress there.
Crucifixes are CATHOLIC, not necesisarily Christian, as in Evangelical Christian or Christian Church.
Yeah for meaningless details. Besides, your wrong. Trux and the cross are one and the same, christians were just too lazy to put a body on it. learn to laff, its all you got.
That's not so. Many of the non-Catholic sects do not believe in depicting Jesus on the Cross. Not sure what their reasoning is, but if you go into a non-Catholic church you will not see a crucifix.
You must not be Catholic. Protestants have crosses, not crucifixes, with a semblance of a dead body attached.
There are CROSSES on flags. That's CHRISTIAN.
I think George Carlin figured out a long time ago that religion and politics don’t mix:
"The real reason we can't have the TEN COMMANDMENTS in a courthouse: You cannot post 'Thou shalt not steal," 'Thou shalt not commit adultery, and 'Thou shalt not lie' in a building full of lawyers, judges, and politicians. It creates a hostile work environment."
Israel is wiping out the Palestinians with US weapons. I think the US should have a say, in fact we should be saying a whole lot more.
Lisa-where are you getting your facts from? Do you not know that the stated intention of both the PLO and Hamas is to eradicate Israel? Who started this back in October 2023 by killing 1200 people and taking hostages. In my book, Israel cannot wipe out the Palestinians fast enough. we have enough terrorist organizations in the world and could easily do without the PLO and Hamas. Grow up and do your homework and stop taking the easy way out by blaming the "Americans". The fact is that the PLO wants all of Israel-not just what the UN awarded them in 1947. Hamas just hates Israel and wants to get rid of them because a Jew should never be over a Muslim according to Muslim beliefs. Both the PLO and Hamas have been very open and up front about what they believe and what they want-or haven't you been paying attention? Israel is at war and what is going on in Gaza is a consequence of that war. Gaza has been self governing since 2005 and look what the PLO and Hamas turned it into- staging area for terrorist attacks into Israel! The people in Gaza supported the PLO and Hamas and allowed them to mingle in the civilian population while they were building tunnels under hospitals and schools to smuggle arms in. When you lie down with dogs, you attract fleas and Hamas is the PLO's fleas. Now they want to whimper that they do not like what it takes to get rid of those fleas. The PLO has rejected EVERY peace offer since 1948 including a two state offer in 2005-obviously the PLO wants violence, if they did not they would come to the negotiation table prepared and ready to do what it takes to ensure that peace takes place-and yet-the PLO has rejected every single proposal in the 75 years since the UN decision to create Israel. It is time that they learned that their wish for violence has come to fruition. This has nothing to do with American weapons. The Israeli's are going to do what is necessary to protect their sovereignty as is their right-the only thing that having US weapons does is make it easier and takes less time. The PLO is like a street fighter who throws the first punch and then whines when their opponent hits them back hard. If you are going to do things like slaughter 1200 people and take more hostages be prepared to get hit back harder and don't whine about Israeli's not playing fair when you give aid and sustenance to the very enemy(Hamas) that started the war.
"In my book, Israel cannot wipe out the Palestinians fast enough."
Evil genocidal garbage.
Hasbara
I reported barbara for hate.
There are so many inaccuracies and falsehoods in here, one hardly knows where to begin, but I'll try addressing a few.
The Hamas charter says it has nothing against Jews or the Jewish religion, but is against the treatment of Palestinians by Israel, which has been oppressing, subjugating, and dispossessing them since Israel's inception. That is why Hamas exists. This history didn't begin Oct. 7.
It's Israel that wants it all and is unwilling to share with the indigenous population, which it's doing it's best to exterminate. If you look at a map of Israel and Palestine in 1948 and look at the same map today, you will see that there is practically no Palestine left.
It is a flat falsehood that the PLO has rejected every proposal put forth for peace and a 2 state solution (more Israeli propaganda), Israel has rejected many. During the 1990's and 2000's various coalitions of Arab countries proposed recognizing Israel in exchange for the establishment of a Palestinian state (2 state solution) which of course implied recognition of Palestine by Israel. Israel either ignored these proposals or turned them down flat. (Kind of like it wouldn't accept the ceasefire agreement that had been brokered and Hamas accepted, just so it could invade Rafah).
Israel's not playing fair? It's committing war crimes by the ton, quite a different thing. It's against international law to cut off food, water, medical, electricity to a civilian population, bomb hospitals and destroy medical infrastructure, bomb schools, universities, churches and mosques, residential areas. Gaza's been made uninhabitable. People are starving and Israel fires on them when they try to access food. Israeli snipers target children age 3 and up, ambulance drivers, women waving white flags. It kills parents in front of their children. It especially targets journalists (over 120 killed in 6 months vs less than 20 killed in the 4 years of WW2) in an effort to keep its atrocities unknown. It has 9000 Palestinians imprisoned, most in indefinite detention without charges or trial. Life in Israeli prisons includes beatings, starvation and rape. When it comes to savagery, Israel is second to nobody.
This is not a war - which implies armies on both sides - but the wanton slaughter of a defenseless civilian population. You say Israel cannot wipe out Palestinians fast enough? The Final Solution to the Palestinian problem? You're no better than a Nazi.
Your post here is so ignorant there isn't even a place to begin. Where do you get your information from? Start by actually reading the Hamas charter, which you clearly haven't done. Then get a few quality history books written by actual historians, not fabulists. There are objective facts and whatever it is you are reading is ignoring them.
https://open.substack.com/pub/chrishedges/p/sermon-for-gaza-read-by-eunice-wong?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android&r=twspk
https://open.substack.com/pub/caitlinjohnstone/p/i-oppose-israels-atrocities-in-gaza?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android&r=twspk
https://open.substack.com/pub/sarahkendzior/p/theres-a-sniper-on-the-roof-of-the?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android&r=twspk
Biden is holding back the bombs now.
Finally! Nethu replied they'll just use dumb bombs that kill more people. He's psychopathic.
Is he really?
Yes.
I am glad, and emailed Biden to stay strong. Enough killing.
Israel IS a theocracy, and for decades any Jew was able to immigrate based on BEING a Jew, per the Law of Return, but only on being a religiously-recognized Jew. My mother-in-law, an Orthodox Jew born in Warsaw, converted to B’hai, and she and her children were and are NOT considered Jews, in the sense that Israel sees them. My friend who converted from Catholic to Jewish before her children were born is a Jew and so are her kids. It’s the religion that is central.
Once living IN Israel, there’s so much more culturally going on, but the state is a theocracy set up primarily as a haven for Jewish people the world over … Religiously Jewish people, not culturally Jewish or Jewish by lineage.
Do I have this right?
As a thought exercise, I like to consider a somewhat similar situation that would be created if the Native Americans in the US were to "buy," say, the state of South Dakota via casino proceeds and votes. They could then declare South Dakota to be a Native American Nation with appropriate sovereignty. Of course, the myriad number of US Government-violated treaties over history would further justify this action. Naturally, non-Native people living in South Dakota would not be too happy about suddenly finding themselves living in another country, and many if not most of them would immediately consider violence as the optimum solution to their problem.
By changing the people involved, from Jews and Arabs to Native Americans and "other" Americans, whole new ways of thinking about these situations evolve. Who's "right"? for starters...
This thought experiment demonstrates the weakness of melding ethno-religiosity with statecraft. My ancestors are from the Balkans, where grudges persist for centuries because your neighbors use a different alphabet. Everyone needs to see Monty Python’s “Life of Brian” and come clean on their ethnic presuppositions. Either we’re one humanity or forever at war thanks to ethnocentrism.
Thanks. This is spot on. I have used this comparison over the years, only to have people look at me as if to say. "Well, that's not going to happen", and then go on to defend the creation of Israel without the Palestinians even being at the table.
Many of my own family members were born in a little town in the Alps in Austria. After a while, their town was no longer in Austria, but in Italy.
That sort of thing is not so unusual as you may think. Colonial rule drew arbitrary lines in the dirt, sometimes fragmenting long-held lands of ancient peoples, lots and lots of times in lots and lots of places.
And, YES, the arbitrary lines have and still do cause all sorts of trouble regarding which entity various people feel a sense of loyalty to.
No. That is incorrect. Ethnic Jews have a right of return, even if they are secular.
Thanks,
May kids aren't considered Jewish for the purpose of the faith, but I read about The Law of Return passed in 1950, and that says {so far as I can determine} they can immigrate to Israel, if they so desire.
Pat Goudey O'Brien, that's really interesting.
I think ideas about matrilineage are mixed up and morph from place to place, but that’s how it was explained to me. I have several friends who converted to Judaism before starting their families for these reasons.
I converted to Judaism before I married my Jewish husband 43 years ago. He mostly wanted me to so that our children would be Jewish. And should the need arise, they’d be able to emigrate to Israel. I was very comfortable with this because I was already attracted to the religion and the people.
I had an Orthodox conversion procedure which included the mikveh and a questioning before a Bet Din.
The need for Israel as a refuge is very important to most Jews. History does repeat itself.
Despite what you said about Jews in other countries being able to return to Israel, they are not a theocracy. Because of the Holocaust, Israel needed such rules in order to provide a refuge for Jews worldwide. Other countries have similar policies: Ireland comes to mind and I’m sure there are others.
Being Jewish is more than an ethnic group (like the Irish) and more than a religion; it’s both.
No, it’s set up to provide a haven for anyone considered Jewish—they could be an atheist, it wouldn’t matter. It didn’t matter to the Nazis, which is very salient to this discussion.
THAT part is certainly true. My own children would have been in the gas chambers, and at least half of my nieces and nephews and in-laws. But also my sisters, who were disabled, and not Jewish. It was a horrible time. The status of Jews as a people AND a religion, that has been the subject of books about how it came about. I have not read them, but plan to ....
Once again, that old tired, detestable chestnut. Adolph Hitler is the final authority on who is Jewish and who is not. My father tried to pull that on me too. I thought I should have the final word on that subject.
You seem to have missed the point of that “old, tired chestnut”. It’s so obvious, I won’t insult you by explaining it.
Jewish by lineage is a way to become a citizen/emigrate to Israel. I was unaware that a born Jew that has converted is not considered Jewish. A non Jewish woman that has converted is okay? and so would her children be Jewish then because it's the mother that matters in terms of being considered Jewish- my understanding. As well I have heard from my (Jewish) religious relation that a person can convert, but can never leave their Jewishness. ( You can be verbally excommunicated by those who don't like what you did). In other words you are Jewish regardless. (I believe the Nazi's also felt this way) I understand religiously there is always the hope ( from the J community) that you will return. Of course there are so many opinions (Rabbis etc) and rules from different quarters. In Israel it's the Orthodox rabbis that make the rules for acceptance and they are very strict. To emigrate to Israel, one has to prove lineage/connection. That's what I know from personal experience/jhistory/relations over the years. Things may have changed.
PS. You don't have to be an observant Jew to be considered Jewish in Israel, if that is what you mean by "religiously" Jewish.
I have not researched this issue — I have what people {religious and not religious} have told me. My mother-in-law converted before she had kids, so they were not Jewish, because when she had them, she was not Jewish.
It’s all pretty arcane.
We have to be clear about who us making the rules. To be a Jewish citizen of Israel or to have “the right to return “ you have to prove you are Jewish. What that means beyond being born Jewish (having a Jewish mother) I am not sure. They have their rules in Israel that the orthodox rabbis agreed on.
I believe for your mother-in-law’s kids to be considered Jewish they too would have to convert. Then they can claim citizenship in Israel .
If your peaceful demonstration involves a tent, you're doing it wrong.
Why?
Joan--Because peaceful demonstrations and camping don't mix.
I’m not sure if that. It is a sit in of sorts. Placeholders. A place to be while staying one’s position.
Troll.
Are there other historic ethnic groups that have been so ill treated throughout history that they have needed their own state; yet, surrounded by those who may not like them? I think most recently of the Tibetans who do not have a sovereign country of their own.
Armenians
As someone said above, indigenous American tribes.
The Kurdish people (44 million, I believe) had their land carved up and handed out by the careless English, French and others...
Thank you for articulating what I could not.
I AGREE!
You really are laughable. We all know the truth now.
The Jews are the majority now. But their birthday rate is falling. In a few years….?
"annoying" yeah, it's so annoying when your leaders slaughter tens of thousands of innocent women and children while screaming "You will die, your children will die, your grandchildren will die!” in the Knesset ...
How can you be so dismissive of the current threat to democracy in Israel AND in the US? Both are hanging by a thread.
We are once again being played by the Oligarchy, the JP Morgans and Bushes and Duponts and Musks whose grandfathers supported the Nazi rise and who are now supporting the simultaneous rise and fall of Israel.
They already took the Supreme Court of the United States. How annoying!
Bibi's coup attempt was stopped, this time.
Do you think the Big Boys will stop there? Do you think Bibi will stop even after Gaza is bombed into dust and bone? What will happen to Arabs in Israel if he and his backers make it to the Sea? "From the Jordan to the Sea."
Do you think there will be a secular resistance in Israel and the zealots will just shrug and walk away from power? Or does the coalition have its own Project 2025?
The Oiligarchy and the Military Industrial Complex behind both MAGA And the rise of vicious racism in today's Knesset and Settlers and IDF are extremely dangerous to the viability of both our nations.
Bibi and Donny are just twin tools of the Billionaire class that wants Putin style power. They want kleptocracy, sanctified with a veil of Christian Jewish patriarchy.
Emphasis on the Christian.
The "existential war" isn't against the corrupt, weak terrorist groups, its' against the powerful merchants of death, the merchants of climate change and of chaos. The same group of merchants. From Koch and Tillerson to Putin and MBS to Modi, to Xi and Khameini, to all the greedy bastards waiting in line behind them.
Do you think Jews will be safe in the United States if the WASPs install The Don back in the White House and never hold another election?
Do you think the Leo Lewis crowd will keep supporting Jews after they have taken over? The Kushners maybe. Ackman? Mmmmm... not so much. So many assets to "acquire."
What would stop the Christian Nationalists from just taking the Holy Land itself, "their" holy land? They have their Red Heifers ready and they look forward to rising while the Jews "burn in hell for eternity." (I know because my neighbor talks about it all the time real loud on his front porch. He belongs to a "Temple" of Jews for Jesus.
Are you a billionaire? If not you are dispensable. Collateral damage. So annoying.
Hamas and all radical Islam is the threat to democracy in Israel and the entire West. I hate Donald Trump; he's a would-be dictator, no doubt. I was never a fan of Bibi but I'm guessing his primary motivation is to stay out of jail. Israel is bigger than him. Jewish patriarchy? LOL. You don't know Jewish women.
You have the chutzpah to say Israel is not a theocracy. And I take the pro-Zionist tone of the rest of your paragraph. You are delusional! And then you equate anti-zionism with anti-semitism. I suppose you think genocide is an unfortunate necessity.
There is no religious entity ruling Israel. This is a fact. There is a religious faction that participates in its Parliament. This really isn't debatable.
So who was defending the 40K dead Palestinians from the IDF GENOCIDE?
Apparently no one. That’s the point. They want ( and these orders come directly from leaders in Qatar ) the women and children to die. Good PR.
I'm a Jew; I don't need a state. And I reject your hasbara lies.
Here's the reason for a "Jewish" state (and by Jewish I mean ethnically, racially, however you want to slice it but NOT religiously): without a state a people cannot have a legitimate military and cannot defend itself. It's that simple. Look at the Holocaust. Jews have been thrown out of European and Middle Eastern countries with no recourse, and slaughtered. The only thing that fixes that is having your own state. You may not feel the need for it -- that's fine. But there is a need.
Thank you Robin.
I don't have strong disagreement with the thoughts expressed by John. However, Israel is still regarded by secular as well as religious Jews who don't live in Israel as the last refuge for Jews. Jews have been kicked out of Syria, Jordan, Egypt, etc. as well as not welcome in many other countries. The fear of being exiled is real. I would recommend Israel having stronger Constitutional protection for Non-Jews (and I confess to not knowing what protections currently exist) but to divest religion entirely from Israel is 1. A nonstarter and 2. contrary to Jewish convictions around the world who regard Israel as their ONLY safe place
Alan, did it never occur to you that Israel is not a refuge for Jews, that Israeli Jews will not be "safe" until the other half of the population, the Palestinians also are safe? If I were an Israeli Jew, I would emigrate to any number of democratic countries in which Jews are not locked into an interminable struggle to deny half the population its basic human rights.
Israel is a visceral place. It's home. Its mentioned in our Torah, or the old testament. As a jew, I feel at home there in a way I can't describe. And I agree with you, that Israel isn't really safe until the Palestinians are too. However, there have been sabotages coming from both sides, over and over again. If Hamas would stop indoctrinating their population and children that Jews are pigs and deserve to die, it would help get us to peace faster.
Yet it's well-known that Israeli children are indoctrinated to see Palestinians as sub-human, etc.
Actually it's not. Im ending this thread.
Well known by whom? Have you ever been to Israel or is that just more garbage? I've been and that was way back before the 6
You seem to have missed the statements about the inhumanity of Palestinians made by members of Netanyahu's government who regard each and every Palestinian child as a current or potential member of Hamas and therefore expendable. You also seem to have missed the fact that where Israel now stands was equally viscerally home to many generations of Palestinians before they were driven into exile when the modern state of Israel was created. For several decades, the increasingly "conservative" Israeli government has gone far beyond protecting Israel and done things which seem dedicated to making the Palestinians are unable to feel at home where they now live, but re as miserable as possible (destroying farmer's olive groves, etc.). Today's "war" is just a massive expansion of that approach seemingly in the hopes that the Palestinians will all just exile themselves from Gaza so that Netanyahu can recreate the Kingdom of Solomon with absolutely no appreciation or acknowledgment of what happened to that Kingdom nor how briefly it existed. The Netanyahu government's current paths do not lead to safety but destruction. If they continue, you will absolutely NOT feel safe.
Jews lived in Israel for over five Centuries. Arabs came later ot coexisted with them, until the crusades, the Romans and others drove people out.
Hardly anyone like Netanyahu. When they finally have elections, he will be defeated and jailed. Few Jews ascribe to his warped visions.
Sally, Israel is a visceral place for some Jews but by no means all Jews. When I visited Israel and the West Bank in 2013, as an American Jew, I felt that Israel was alien to me, and that is because Israel isn't a democracy. A democratic country cannot be a democracy on the front end and a tyrannical state on the back end, that is in the occupied territories, where 5 millions stateless Palestinians are devoid of political, legal and basic human rights. Stand on any rooftop in the West Bank, and a person will see evidence of the occupation ebbed in the landscape: miles and miles of separation walls, a duel road system, and the presence of black water tanks on the roofs of Palestinians homes but not on Jewish Israeli buildings. The Palestinian homes need water tanks because of restricted water supply from Israel, whereas the settlements don't.
I understand your point. Israeli has a lot to do to improve with their neighbors. The walls are up to keep some semblance of peace and order. The murder rate from the Arab military went way down after their building.
Much more needs to be done to speed up entry, with water and the like.
Those of us who grew up without a religion that is also an ethnic identity, don’t have a desire for a homeland. I refer to Christianity, which is a credo instead of a bloodline. Q: is Judaism still a bloodline-based religion?
Somewhat.yes Jewish people are born into our faith. While people convert, we don't proselytize.
No, that will never occur to me.
Sadly us humans invented different religions around the world that has caused misery for thousands of years. I think a new awareness must emerge that's healthy and embraces wellbeing.
As a child of the 1950s-60s, I know that many in my age group searched for a process-based path to truth such as Zen Buddhism (Alan Watts, Kerouac, Ginsberg) or Sufism (Meher Baba) or yoga (Swami Vishnudevananda, Maharishi) in reaction to our perception that our heritage religion (Lutheranism, Methodism, Judaism) is self-limiting, leading inevitably to our tendency to make spurious distinctions between other people and their traditions. Historical religion seemed to me and many of my young friends as an impediment to perceiving and achieving the oneness of humanity.
Stan of Stanistan, I agree with your view. I don't know if you are familiar with Deepak Chopra but I also think he would agree with you. Here's a great talk he gave last December that I think you would really enjoy: https://youtu.be/YU04HibKx9o
Yes, Joan, I attended a lecture in Palm Beach by Deepak Chopra in 1989. His worldview is based in empiricism, not ethnism. As a child of Balkans ancestry, his worldview is invaluable to me.
Israel is not a theocracy. It was founded by secular Jews. Jewish law is not the law of Israel. It is a democracy. Lots of Jews do not practice or believe in Judaism, and they have full right of return. Israel was founded for ethnic Jews, both those who are religious and those who are not. There are also plenty of non-Jewish citizens of Israel and they have full rights of citizenship.
The Holy Land does not appear to be very holy these days. Religion is the bane of humanity.
'..these days'?? The so called 'Holy Land' has to be the most blood-soaked soil on the planet...for at least 4 thousand years.
While I tend to agree as regards religion, Lee, history has shown that the persistent persecution of Jews, practicing or not, assimilated or not, makes it necessary to have a place of refuge where Jews can live free of anti-semitism. The events of late, such that everyone wants a ceasefire yet somehow fail to raise their voices to demand release of hostages, only make it all the more clear. Now more than ever, Jews need a homeland.
Until individuals stop identifying with a particular and exclusive ethnic group, they will inevitably be persecuted by some other group. It occurs to me that Marx’s greatest contribution was to try to re-focus our mind on economic class and away from ethno-religious identity.
Do you think that German Jews in the 1920s identified as an exclusive ethnic group and so invited their own persecution? German Jews had pretty much fully assimilated into German society. Then they were blindsided by Nazism.
From what I’ve read, the Jews of Germany had assimilated and yes were blindsided. I fear we have a similar situation with Drumpf, whose plainly stated intent for unwanted people is to put them into camps. Many republicans say, “Oh, that’s just Trump being Trump: he doesn’t mean it.” Same with Hitler, I’ve read. The old hands of German politics thought they could contain Hitler — until he declared a state of emergency and assumed dictatorial powers till May 1945.
I was just today looking up the photos shot by Elizabeth “Lee” Miller in 1945 showing the liberation of the Dachau concentration camp. Impressive lady.
“Israel is an anomaly in a secularized world being a theocracy - a religion-based state”
Far from it. There are many religion-based states. Iran and the Vatican just to name an obvious two.
It was created that way. Go look at the founding documents before opining.
I don't get your point. Are Iran and the Vatican not theocratic states because of something in Israel's founding documents?
Both of which have long histories of holy wars which is my point about the secularization of nations bringing an end to nationalization of religious zealotry.
Non-Jews are full citizens of Israel with full rights, including voting, running for and serving in office. Arabs are exempt from military service, which is compulsory for others. Israel is not a theocracy, but many of the right-wing want it to be, as in the United States. The flag bearing the Star of David is not exclusively a religious symbol, but a historical one. David was a monarch, not a priest. Some laws of the Torah are incorporated into Israeli government, just as in the United States. There have been no "holy wars" instigated or fought by Israel in modern times. The last one I can recall was the Maccabean revolt in 167 BC. And that wasn't fought to try to enforce Judaism on the occupation forces, but to stop being forced to adhere to their religion.
I would contend that Israel has been in an almost constant series of "holy wars" from its inception in 1948. As long as the Star of David is its national symbol, any war it engages in sparks subconscious religious zealotry both internally and externally.
Now those are truly antisemitic statements. Blame the victim for being invaded, and using a symbol that "sparks subconscious religious zealotry".
As opposed to Europe in the Middle Ages? The Hundred Years War? what a drag that must have been on society and the economy.
Excellent points, thank you.
I agree with your point about Iran; I think the analogy is weak as relates to Vatican City State. With 764 inhabitants and an area of .19 square miles, Vatican City is minuscule compared to Israel. As small as it is, in 2016 Pope Francis welcomed several Muslim Syrian refugee families to live in Vatican City.
Sure, it's small and has accepted refugees. But despite its size and actions it remains, by definition, a theocratic state. Which was the point being made.
It is NOT and never was a theocracy. It was founded by secular Jews. Do you not understand that not all Jews practice religion? Being Jewish is an ethnicity. Some Jews practice religion. Many do not.
Wait. The Vatican was founded by Jews?
I think your comment isn’t really responding to what I wrote.
what you are proposing would make no difference whatsoever. Remember what the Nazis did to secular Jews--even to Jews who had converted and become Christians or even Christian clergy?
Yes, Hitler’s attempt to eradicate Jews, even those who had fully assimilated German culture (think of “Die Fledermaus”) was based on the idea of bloodline, which of course also characterized those who were truly German. It was an exercise in bloodthirsty idiocy as we all agree. Not being much of a historian, I don’t understand how the Vatican could have signed an agreement with Hitler in apparent disregard of his maniacal tendencies.
If you mean Strauss, he had no Jewish origins
Thanks for the info. Since a major character in Die Fledermaus is named Eisenstein, I assumed he was one of the wealthy Jewish residents of Vienna, who owned, according to Timothy Snyder, 70% of the real estate in the Ringstrasse.
Zionism was created because no matter how long Jews live in a country no matter how valuable they are to a country when things get rough the non Jews have a target . In 1947 after the world knew some of what the Nazis did ,approximately 60% of Americans believed the Jewish people must have done something to cause the murdering of 4 out of 5 Jewish people . There has been no group in this nation that supported civil rights for all minorities like the Jewish people and we now see the growth of anti semitism among the left as well as the right who have always been bigots. I don't have any love for any nation that is run by any religion ,but if one looks at this country today ,if you look at history from well before Hitler ,one fact is obvious . Jewish people will become targets eventually .
The real religious clash in the Middle East is not between Islam and Judaism. It's between Sunni and Shi'a Muslims. It's Saudi Arabia vs. Iran. Everyone else is caught in the middle.
Israel and Saudi Arabia are inching closer together and Hamas (funded by Iran) stages a terrorist attack on Israel. Hezbollah (another Iranian client) attacks from Lebanon), the Houthi rebels (another Iranian client) stirs up trouble off the coast of Yemen. All co-ordinated by Iran.
Netanyahu is a short-timer. As soon as there are elections, he's history. Let's focus on that. He's lost the confidence of his own people, due to his conduct of this war.
Your theories are completely off-base.
And, all those missiles and drones launched against Israel by Iran were just for show...
I do not argue your thesis of the power struggle between Sunni Arabs and Shi'a Persians, but the fate of Jerusalem is at the core of the religious fanaticism on both sides. The problem for Israel is that it currently occupies Jerusalem and Iran is infiltrating Sunni Islamists to be proxy martyrs in a Shi'a drive to "purify" the Holy City. https://johnhardman.substack.com/p/israel-iran-war-second-nekba
My theories are still valid as long as Israel is a "Jewish state" occupying Islam's holiest shrine. The only way out (other than genocide or ethnic cleansing) is for Israel to become a secular state and cede Jerusalem to a neutral party such as UNESCO to become a cultural heritage site rather than a flash point of religious extremism. The ousting of Netanyahu is the beginning of the formation of a secular Israel but not the end solution.
Israel is not a theocracy. It is a secular state. There goes your entire theory, I’m afraid. Care to revise?
Julia: So you're saying that any Hindu or Rohinga or Catholic or Bahai is just as likely to arrive at the gates of Israel claiming to be returning and be welcomed in and end up in the Knesset as a Jew would be? Since it's such a secular state, right? What is there about a Zionist membership card that comes with an obligation to disdain truth and start quoting Israeli propaganda?
Nope, like I mentioned, secular Israel is being attacked internally by far right religious fanatics hoping to transform Israel into a full theocracy - a "pure" Jewish state.
"Thirty-two of the coalition’s sixty-four members in the Knesset (out of a hundred and twenty parliamentary seats) are disciples of so-called religious parties, the political arms of theocratic communities. These parties, and factions of parties, can be divided into three groups: The largest alliance, with fourteen seats, is religious Zionism, whose forebears were preoccupied with preserving the rabbinic privileges afforded by the British Mandate in the new state of Israel—such as supervision over marriage, burial, conversion, and dietary laws, and state-supported religious schools—but which, since 1967, has been overtaken by the messianic claims of West Bank settlers. The Haredi, or ultra-Orthodox, with seven seats, represent self-segregating communities living mainly in and around Jerusalem. Shas, with eleven seats, are a populist, anti-élite party of Orthodox Mizrahi immigrants from North Africa and the Middle East, who tend to be poorer and less educated.
In recent years, the three groups have meshed ideologically into the “national camp,” adhering in particular to the ultranationalist, Greater Israel vision of the religious-Zionist alliance: prohibiting the surrender of Biblically promised land, and moving the state further toward Orthodox law. Indeed, the other, anchoring half of the government majority, Netanyahu’s Likud party, includes many rank-and-file members who also openly identify with religious Zionism. (The new minister of environmental protection, Idit Silman, is a former backbencher of a religious-Zionist party who jumped to the Likud last summer, abandoning the “change government” of Yair Lapid and Naftali Bennett, thereby helping to bring it down.)
So, at least half of the coalition government cannot be said to be on the right in any ordinary sense, because its leaders and followers aren’t really committed to the secular social contract..." https://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-comment/netanyahus-government-takes-a-turn-toward-theocracy
While in theory Israel is still a secular country, in actually it is drifting towards religious zealotry and to becoming a true theocracy. My point is Israel was founded precariously as a "hybrid" democratic religious state. That balance has been violated and an insurgence of Orthodox Jewish zealotry is transforming the nation into something more resembling Iran than the founding secular socialist state. As protestors have remarked, they are repulsed by rabid Zionism and rightly so. I miss the old "hippie" Israel and its secular Jewish leaders.
Are you writing to get published by the college crowd with obscure words like " diaspora " or are you trying to impress us with your heady language? As a career broadcast TV newsman, I learned to write PLAIN ENGLISH so as to not exclude the majority of my potential readers. Academics should learn from that notion. Suggest you find a copy of Rudolf Flesch's book "How to Write, Speak, and Think More effectively." He's passed away but he was a well known consultant for lawyers and regulation writers to speak our language clearly.
Fwiw, I don’t consider “diaspora” to be an obscure term. Anyone who reads history will be familiar with the word—it’s often used when describing both the Jews and the Irish.
Greg Byron: You call yourself a journalist/newsman and you think diaspora is a ten dollar word? You didn't really go to school or do any reading before calling yourself a newsman, did you? Or did you mistakenly read the companion work How to Write More Dumb?
My undergrad degree is in journalism and my masters degree is in psychology. I know how to write in a broad variety of formats depending on the audience. I have a high regard for the Substack audience.
Diaspora is a common word regarding the fate of Jews after their enslavement and dispersal by the Romans during the first century CE. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_diaspora#:~:text=According%20to%20Josephus%2C%20about%2097%2C000,to%20Carthage%20by%20the%20Romans.
Here's another difficult word for you - "ad hominem" - Latin for attacking a person rather than staying focused on the facts. I notice you have no comment on the discussion but choose to attack my writing style instead. I am reminded of the words of Abraham Lincoln: "Better to remain silent and thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt." https://www.txst.edu/philosophy/resources/fallacy-definitions/Ad-Hominem.html
Too bad Mr Reich can't get his mind wrapped around this.
Oh, I. believe he can but we are all so caught up in the minutiae of the moment and the mythologies of the past we all remain in our “boxes.” How to secularism the Holy Land is a mind-blower.
Palestine was always multicultural, this is not a new development. Also, this is not a religious war and the conflict between the Israelis and Palestinians started before Israel was even a state. I'll remind you, there is considerable number of Christian Palestinians. This is a war about land first and foremost and who has a right to it and also about the methods used to secure and exercise those rights. The Israelis use systematic brutality to ensure what they think of as their rights. Furthermore, Zionism was secular to its core from its founding!
If it were simply a war about land, it could have been settled decades ago. The UN Partition Resolution envisioned two states. Israel agreed but on declaring its statehood it was attacked by tribal Palestinians and joined by neighboring Arab states Egypt and Jordan who had designs on Gaza and West Bank territories.
"After looking at alternatives, the UN proposed terminating the Mandate and partitioning Palestine into two independent States, one Palestinian Arab and the other Jewish, with Jerusalem internationalized (Resolution 181 (II) of 1947)." https://www.un.org/unispal/history/
The forgotten history of the region was heavily influenced by Amin al-Husseini, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem who was an ardent Nazi collaborator during WWII and adapted European fascist ideology to become the basis for the radical Islamist movement after the war. He was a rabid antisemitic and generally anti-Western. He was also implicated in the assassination of Jordanian King Abdullah I for collaborating with the West and the new state of Israel. https://johnhardman.substack.com/p/hitlers-grand-mufti
Yes, systematic brutality and terrorism has been prevalent in the region since the collapse of the Ottoman Empire after WWI. The PLO has a long violent history in the region which is why Palestinians are not welcomed now in Jordan, Egypt, and Lebanon.
"In 1969 Yasser Arafat, leader of Fatah, was named the PLO’s chairman. From the late 1960s the PLO organized and launched guerrilla attacks against Israel from its bases in Jordan, which prompted significant Israeli reprisals and led to instability within Jordan. This, in turn, brought the PLO into growing conflict with the government of King Hussein of Jordan in 1970, and in 1971 the PLO was forcibly expelled from the country by the Jordanian army. Thereafter the PLO shifted its bases to Lebanon and continued its attacks on Israel. The PLO’s relations with the Lebanese were tumultuous, and the organization soon became embroiled in Lebanon’s sectarian disputes and contributed to that country’s eventual slide into civil war. During that time, factions within the PLO shifted from attacks on military targets to a strategy of terrorism—a policy the organization fervently denied embracing—and a number of high-profile attacks, including bombings and aircraft hijackings, were staged by PLO operatives against Israeli and Western targets." https://www.britannica.com/topic/Palestine-Liberation-Organization
Yes, as I mentioned Israel was originally founded by secular Jews with a distinct socialist agenda. It has only been recently that the Ultra-Orthodox sects have gained political power pulling the nation to the far right politically and the rising militancy against the Arabs in the region. The present struggle is between ultra-conservative Islamists against Netanyahu's coalition of Ultra-Ortodox Jewish zealots. There is also the sub plot of Shi'a Iran infiltrating Sunni Islamist factions to cause turmoil with its rival Arab nations and to regain control of Jersaleum to muddy up the water. No, this is NOT a simple land dispute.
Two words: Deir Yassin, carried out by secular Jews before the Nakba
Oh, if only that simple. You left out the part about the 1947-48 civil war in Mandatory Palestine with Arabs and Jews fighting one another and the pathetic Brits caught in the crossfire. You are also leaving out Nazi sympathizer and rabid antisemite Al-Husayni Grand Mufti of Jerusalem who lead the attacks on the new nation of Israel.
"On 22 February 1948, supporters of Mohammad Amin al-Husayni organized, with the help of certain British deserters, three attacks against the Jewish community. Using car bombs aimed at the headquarters of the pro-Zionist Palestine Post newspaper, the Ben Yehuda St. market and the backyard of the Jewish Agency's offices, they killed 22, 53, and 13 Jewish people respectively, a total of 88 fatalities. Hundreds of others were injured." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1947–1948_civil_war_in_Mandatory_Palestine
All this happened in the chaos of the aftermath of WWII over 76 years ago. There was lots of blood on the hands of both sides at that time. https://johnhardman.substack.com/p/hitlers-grand-mufti
Btw, Britain was hardly just caught in the crossfire. They were the deliberate target of the Zionists in such capers as the bombing of the King David Hotel, among other things
Yes, your remarks prompt me to read up on the Polish Zionists, who apparently were socialist rather than exclusively religionist in orientation.
Israel in the beginning was highly socialist which drew the attention of communist USSR hoping to bring the new socialist state into its sphere of influence. Israel wisely resisted choosing to align with prosperous Western nations instead. My, how far Israel has strayed from its kibbutz beginnings shifting from the far left now to the far right. https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-04-25/ty-article/.premium/israel-at-75-how-a-young-socialist-nation-became-capitalist/00000187-b3fb-d803-ad8f-fffb87c30000
Zionists were both secular and socialist before the founding of the USSR
Yes, and can be again...
Then ALL theocracies must be disbanded. Why should Israel do that when Iran isn't doing that? Yes, I like living in a secular state where we are trying to keep church and state separate. But as long as there are other theocracies, Israel should keep its status as a Jewish state. The King of England is the head of the Church of England. So you got your Christian state right there. Iran is your Muslim state. Israel is your Jewish state. Are there Buddhist states? Tibet was one until Communist China got in there. The Dalai Lama lives in exile as the head of a Buddhist state. So there you are. . . .Keep Israel Jewish.
Some of my relatives have considered converting to Judaism — just for the humor of it all.
True, but fat chance! More’s the tragedy!
Reminds me of the statement by the famous Jew Einstein: "Insanity is repeating the same action and expecting different results."
@ Hardman. Oy. Balfour Declaration 1917 established a "homeland for the Jews."
Crusaders attacked Jews and Muslims in Haifa and Jerusalem. They still live side by side peaceably in Haifa but in 1948, the Arab Legion/Jordan took the old city of Jerusalem. It was restored in 1967. Meanwhile more than 650,000 Sephardic Jews were expelled from Moslem countries and sent to Israel. More than a million Jews in Israel speak Arabic as their first language. Maybe a hundred thousand speak Farsi. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_the_Muslim_world#:~:text=Primarily%20a%20consequence%20of%20the,these%20Jews%20resettled%20in%20Israel.
Most Christian Arabs are vehemently anti Islamist. .
And, my point is much has changed since 1917 and this is an opportunity for self-reflection and an overdue revision of its original mandate. The Israel of the 20th century may not fit the 21st.
No mystery there, Don. The power of hatred is such that any rationale, real or manufactured can fuel its expression, especially the truth.
In Pennsyltucky, Tree of Life is Exhibit A. 11 murdered. The perp was influenced by Soros hatred. Happened long before Oct. 7, 2023. Here's my brother's book .Lives 2 blocks from the murder scene, is a member. He depicts us as honorary white people, not the kind that represent MAGA. . https://www.amazon.com/Tree-Other-Poems-Jonathan-Solomon/dp/1662872534
Unfortunately hatred resides in the collective racial subconscious of a large part of the population. C.G. Jung.
As a card carrying Semite, I don't think Robert has a handle on at all. He now recognizes that Biden has been clandestinely working on a solution, but after his false allegations the past couple of weeks he needs to apologize.
To get rid of Netanyahu, the most effective way is to elevate Benny Ganz. Even if the primary motivation of the protests may not be antisemitism, antisemites took advantage of the situation. Robert does not mention Benny Ganz, who leads in the polls in Israel, would displace Netanyahu, supports a two state solution, which is US policy, is at 85 %. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benny_Gantz
From onset, the Knesset had the ability to do a deal in principle on the table. There was a pause, but Hamas would not deal. Qatar, Egypt etc are not principals and are not honest brokers. Qatar is NOT a mediator. Qatar grants amnesty to murderers, rapists. Egypt and Jordan, only a few miles from the action refuse to accept innocent Gazans.
Both the US and Israel say the numbers of dead are half Hamas. And the numbers are BS. Hamas has a history of killing its own people and blaming Israel. https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2015/05/gaza-palestinians-tortured-summarily-killed-by-hamas-forces-during-2014-conflict/
To me, card carrying Semite, the acid test is whether the leaders of those protests would support Ganz. to achieve removal of Netanyahu?
Congress makes appropriations. Besides Gaza, we were close to war with Iran, and some of the hostages in Gaza are US citizens. US ships have been attacked by Yemen, who says they did it to support Hamas. Hamas is a proxy of Iran and maybe Russia.
Meanwhile the Trump blueprint is laid out in Heritage foundation Project 2025. Reinstate Muslim bans. Concentration camps. Mass deportations. Trum allies want a country where only "Christians" have full citizenship.
Robert has not called out the bots, trolls and others who attribute congenital evil to all Jews, misrepresent the nature of Israel, which has an Arab Party, Arab members in the Knesset, and Arab Druze voluntarily serving in the army. I do not know this as a fact but I bet the Arab Party supports Ganz. What about Robert? What about the mayor of Dearborn? The leaders of the Columbia protests?
Nobody is protesting the hundreds of thousands of Arabs killed by their brethren in Syria and Yemen.
thank you for your thoughtful comments, Daniel. I, too live near the Tree of Life Synagogue and lost several close friends in that dreadful massacre which left a miasma of existential fear hanging over the city that iit seems will never go away. Witnessing unbridled hatred leaves a permanent scar on memories.
I agree that Netanyahu must be deposed. He and his power hungry cronies are a clear and present menace to the world. Benny Gantz is indeed part of the solution and though I support the idea of a two-stage solution in theory, I fear it will not eliminate the ingrained hatred that has poisoned the entire Middle East. Establishing a legitimate border between Palestine and Israel may provide merely a"formal" border between the two countries but it will be one that is easily breached by the smallest of hateful expressions from either side. I hate to sound so negative here but aside from divine intervention, we still have much work to do to correct our species flaws.
My sense of Mr. Reich is he’s been living in a fog when it comes to Israel and these protests. I still can’t get over his statement that some of the protesters “may be antisemitic”. Really, Robert? Ya think?
You’re reminding those of use who feel the intensity of this war, to spend some time in Israel and get a feel for what’s really happening. After all, if it goes wrong, it could be the start of WW3.
Thank you, Don A. I am Jewish and I think Israel's behavior is appalling.
Don, I agree that conflating Israel with Judaism is just wrong. It is like conflating Nazi Germany with all Christianity.
Hitler claimed that his movement was ultimately Christian in nature. An obvious falsehood.
Hitler did indeed call himself Christian and was raised Catholic. And based his pogram against the Jews on Bible claims.
Do you know the definition of "Jew" as put forth by the orthodox who strongly oppose Zionism? If you did, I believe it would clear up a lot of the confusion.
Yes . . .the Orthodox did oppose Zionism but, now, only some of the various Orthodox sects do.
Alan, don't feed the reptiles.
Alan, I will offer my path as an example. Over a dozen years ago, I came to reject Christianity as a result of studying Torah/Tanakh. I am what orthodox Jews call a "Noahide." -- a non-Jew who is on the way to convert to Judaism.
My views come out of this life experience -- which has not been easy. But dedicating one's self to truth never is.
I am not a "reptile." To understand why some so-called orthodox corrupted themselves to service to nationalist idolatry, I recommend becoming familiar with Rabbi Yaakov Shapiro's work.
And why were the devout Orthodox so opposed to a nationalist movement that sprung up in the late 1800s?
Chaim Potok -- from The Chosen: "You Zionists are WORSE than Nazis. Hitler destroyed Jewish bodies, but YOU are destroying the Jewish soul." B"H
Yes, we witness the rabbit hole that these discussions lead to in disregard for our common humanity.
I understand. I try to avoid using words that demonstrate a lack of respect for my fellow human beings.
I find it difficult to think that Zionists are worse than Hitler. Gimme a break, Chaim Potok.
Agree. I see four strands in this conflict: the Israeli people (in favor); homicidal maniac Netanyahu (not in favor); the Palestinian people (in favor); the hate-filled, Iran- and China-funded terrorist group, Hamas (not in favor). Let's keep these four strands separate, shall we? I think they have little to do with each other, although of course they overlap to some degree. For instance, only 15% of the Israeli people support Netanyahu, according to a recent Israeli poll.
They (the Genocide supporters) use the term (antisemitism) to hopefully quell dissenters. Crying wolf too often and eventually no one believes you. Anti-Israel government is NOT ANTISEMITISM.
Being anti-Netanyahu is NOT ANTISEMITISM
The injustice that has Americans and others angry is the math...Netanyahu has punished the loss of a thousand Jews with 25,000 mostly women and children as UNPROPORTIONAL. When we punish other nations for warlike activites OUR government tries to keep retaliation proportional. Clearly Netanyahu didn't... what kind of pressure in ISRAEL is on him for that mistake? (I presume he and his advisors don't believe it's a mistake, but is required to ferret out Hamas and do it quickly.
I do not understand why Israel can't blockade shipment of weapons into Palestinan areas just like all countries do to protect their borders. Why is Israel in such a hurry to weed Gaza of the terrorists there? Yes it does sound a bit like genocide.
Blaming every Jew, everywhere, for the actions of the state of Israel is the very quintessence of anti-semitism. I can't even begin to think of what would be a parallel to it.
But these campus protestors are holding all Jews in America responsible for the actions of Bibi Netanyahu--even though very few of them (and very few Israelis) support what he's doing.
That is absolutely false, Marla. Many of the protestors are Jewish.
Have you read or seen what's been said in the encampments? Those Jewish protestors are delusional. Being singled out as a Zionist, simply for being Jewish and denied passage to your classes or access to the library or to your dorm by these protestors, Jewish or not, is anti-semitism. They're best described as Chickens For Colonel Sanders.
Trust me, when they come for you, it won't matter. All they will see is that you're Jewish.
The residents of those kibbutzim in southern Israel who worked with and helped the residents of Gaza, were sympathetic to them, provided medical care, delivered their babies? Slaughtered along with everyone else on October 7.
A right-wing government is generally 99% wrong, especially in military matters.
Another great post. It's especially important for Jews to say that being against Israel's actions in Gaza does not constitute antisemitism. Thanks, Robert!
Some can't tell the players, even with a scorecard. Most American Jews, probably north of 70% are Democrats who opposed Netanyahu.. We are the babies thrown out with the bathwater.
I remember saying OCT 7th. "man.... if there was one cat us Jews don't need in power right now.... it's Netanyahu... He's gonna fuck this up." And a VERY important part of the story has just been swept under the rug.... Netanyahu was elected AS A HARDLINER. So how on earth is this guy even allowed to go near power after OCT 7th happens under his watch?! He got intel from egypt. He had displaced military elements to the west bank front.... Day 1--you're gone, awaiting trial. Next in line, you're up.
I dunno man... I'm a 35 year old jew. man after Oct 7th... I knew progressive Jews that were wayyy too quiet if they had a problem and some openly "not condemning" the blanket flattening of Gaza. I tried to record as much as I could. I made sure I'm on the record as opposing it, while at the same time absolutely deploring those assholes from Oct 7th. They should meet justice. Bibi's response was the opposite of justice.
I think the Gaza Strip is similar to the Warsaw ghetto. Am I wrong?
Yes, Completely wrong, 80 years of attacks from terrorists. Hamas has set up civilians to take the fall out as they continue their decades long assault with the intention of destroying the state of Israel.
And so the civilians taking the fall are the metaphorical inhabitants of the Warsaw ghetto? I find the analogy between the USA designating reservations for native Americans and the segregation of the gazans into a strip uncomfortably similar. Wouldn’t it be better for Israel to establish Equal Opportunity programs for the natives to bring them into normal society rather than to banish them to a bantustan? You’re minding me that I need to visit Israel to check out the vibe.
I’ve lost your analogy between Gaza and Ghetto, The Ghetto was part of Germany’s genocidal war against Jews. Gazans are Hamas subjects who are used as fodder for Hamas' genocidal war against Israel.
Native Americans in the US are indigenous peoples. Jews are indigenous peoples of the area where Israel is now a state. There were others in the area when Israel became a state. Bedouins, Christians, Arabs. There was a territory named Palestine. There was not a people called the Palestinians. The folks now called Palestinians are fronting for Iran, Arab states and terrorist organizations (Hezbollah) who all have been and are dedicated to the destruction of a Jewish state. Palestinians were announced into being by Yasser Arafat.
We need to be able to criticize power hungry men…Bibi…and not be anti Israel. Many Israelis hate what bibi and his buddies are doing. Why do 40,000 Palestinians have to die, because of Hamas.
I've been confused by Israel's tactics, too. If you supposedly give advance warning to the civilian population in an area of Gaza because of an impending incursion, doesn't that give Hamas also the warning to evacuate? And then I think there really isn't adequate time for the masses of civilians to actually evacuate, and to where are they supposed to evacuate?
It’s a land grab. Hamas gave Netanyahu an excuse for a land grab and he had pursued it relentlessly ever since. It’s not a war against Hamas. It’s a war against the Palestinian people, including children, women and the elderly, who have suffered disproportionately. Yet most of the comments I have read so far are about Israel, Israelis and Jews. I thought Dr.Reich’s piece was about Gaza.
It’s all about land according to Timothy Snyder’s book The Black Earth.
That's all for show. They attack them everywhere. There is no safe space.
Hamas did not kill those thousands of innocent children. Hamas did not kill those aid workers from World Central Kitchen.
You are claiming that Israel can kill wantonly and indiscriminately -- and blame everything on Hamas -- which Israel helped to create. Can you perceive how perverted and evil that is?
btw > the VAST majority of Israelis SUPPORT the actions being taken by the IDF.
“You villain! You killed the innocent child I was using as a shield!”
I'm Jewish, I had family fight the Nazi's in the french resistance. Some died in camps. "Why do 40,000 Palestinians have to die, because of Hamas" is not a talking point. IDF flattened Gaza. There's no homes to go back to. Hamas is horrible. Bibi just ensured their growth for the foreseeable future. If you kill a person's family members, they will put aside political differences to fight back. This is not rocket science. Bibi must be gone ASAP. Israel must have a constitutional reformation and be of one new state. I'm cool with a two state solution, but at this point, there's no political leverage for it. BTW, Bibi's kids--they stayed in Miami as he send our Jewish brothers and sisters to fight for his ego....
I never liked Bibi and I think it's perfectly fine to change prime ministers during a war, but that's an internal issue for Israel to decide. It's not really the meat and potatoes of what's happening in Gaza, which is an existential war for Israel's survival. ANY Israeli prime minister will recognize that and behave accordingly.
Without USA $billions Israel would not be as successful as they have been.
Israel seems to have a well-functioning economy and a decent standard of living. Why do they need economic aid from the USA?
Here's my understanding: the U.S. gives Israel x dollars (don't know off hand how much). Much / most of that money immediately goes back to the U.S. in the purchase of military equipment from our military industrial complex -- so a few large American companies are benefiting from this arrangement big time (corporate socialism at its finest, but okay). At some point in the past the U.S. told Israel not to bother developing their own military stuff -- cause it was good for us. Israel NEVER should have listened to that. Of course they manufacture some things, and they could develop everything else but it would take time. If there's one thing we should all have learned from COVID is you don't rely on other countries for essentials.
Essentials: food, medicine, weapons, energy — all need to be ensured by the federal government. Let the free market reign over Faberge eggs, Guarneri violins, and Babe Ruth baseball cards.
Google how much USA contributes annually
Palestinians are actually culpably responsible as they choose to act as human shields for the Hamas terrorists during the War with the State of Israel; Which demonstrates the erroneous number of deaths as reported by the dubious Hamas… In other words it’s collateral damage… C’est la vie
Your experienced advice on what is and isn’t antisemitism, is much appreciated. One can be pro Israel AND pro Palestine at the same time. These protests are about the inhumanity of war. We need to be savvy enough to discern the noise from political agitators who are using this moment to sow chaos. It suits their purpose. Don’t be drawn in! We—collectively—can be better than this. Human misery in all its forms should upset our sensibilities. Through empathy and compassion we can pursue a better world.
How is it possible to be both pro Israel and pro Palestinian? I'm curious. I haven't found a way. I've gone from being a default Zionist (brought up that way) to now feeling like it was never ok to uproot and expel people who have lived there long before the issue of the Holocaust took place. If Jews have a right to the land because they (we) were there thousands of years ago, on principle don't Native Americans have this same right? And I now know that Israel's location was eventually decided to be former Palestine, but areas in Australia, South Africa, and I think Canada (among a few others) were considered. I wonder why no one made Germany save a tiny little slice of land equivalent to the area of Palestine to give to a new Jewish state. Or maybe not a theocracy, but a place where the safety of Jews would be assured somehow. So I now find myself pro-Palestinian, and though I love so many people who are fellow Jews, and I love Jewish culture, humor, warmth, camaraderie, I cannot condone what took place, what Palestinians call the Nakba. It wasn't colonization, even, which people argue is bad enough, it was something far worse. I don't blame the Palestinians for continuing their fight, though I object to all violence. Hurt people hurt people.
Hi, Anon. It is getting harder and harder to be both. At one time, two years ago, I would have said that those who are pro Israel are usually also pro Palestine. Those who are pro Palestine are usually anti-Israel. By that I meant I supported a two state solution.
I still support a two state solution. But neither the Israelis not the Palestinians support it and my vote is meaningless. I have modified my statement to, "I support a two-state solution but I doubt that it will occur in my lifetime."
Such a good question and I can empathize with the angst you are experiencing. Being pro Israel and pro Palestinian accepts what came before. We cannot simply go back. BUT what we can do is acknowledge Israel’s right to exist while also having it adhere to commitments and objectives previously agreed to (without cheating), AND recognizes the sovereignty of the Palestinians and their same right to freedom and security. It’s not an easy path, but it is the right path. Agitators all around are using the chaos to keep everything frothed up. What both sides want is freedom and safety. If the Palestinians are denied any autonomy, Israel will never have peace. What Hamas did was just plain evil—and the response has in many ways been horrifyingly callus at the very least. Both sides need to see the humanity of the other. The Arab world and the U.S. lead coalition of EU nations support an approach that would finally have the Arab world acknowledge Israel—to which Netanyahu and his far right coalition—so far are rejecting. Netanyahu wants to stay out of jail so in my mind he is not a fair negotiator. Hamas needs to be held accountable. The Palestinians will need help rebuilding. If Israel helped those efforts, it would go a long way (akin to U.S. help for Japan after the bombs). There can be no safe harbor for terrorism. But the limbo Palestine is in… is hellish too. By being able to acknowledge that Israel isn’t absolutely in the right with their dehumanizing tactical response—while also acknowledging their right to exist and to be safe, is both pro Israel and pro Palestine. I think this mindset works in all the other circumstances of displacement/colonization. By acknowledging the past and moving forward with a shared commitment to make it better—treating all with dignity and respect—most would see the opportunity to get out of the downward spiral of doing the same thing and expecting a different outcome. Sadly in all of these circumstances, there are some on both sides that thrive on the hate. We can’t let them own the narrative. It’s not easy. It’s not perfect. But it’s a real opportunity to make our world better and safer for all.
I appreciate your thoughtful reply! What I am having trouble doing is acknowledging Israel’s right to exist.
In defending Israel’s right to exist, you would be saying it’s OK for a religio-ethnic group to establish a government. No problem there, right? But then dig deeper: what are the laws of that ethno-religious state? Do they have a Bill of Rights analogous to the USA’s? Do they have a bedrock constitution? Does this state adhere to the 1946 United Nations universal declaration of human rights?
I don't condone theocracies.
Truly unsure how to interpret your response—other than to acknowledge this mindset is at least half the problem.
Teddi Davis I 100% agree with your perspective. I think that until the LEADERSHIP of Israel and Hamas decide to start over and make it safe for both (which means each side must agree not to do things that are harmful to the other and then KEEP THEIR WORD), then maybe there can be peace. Over the years, neither group has kept their word on agreements made, and therefore neither can be trusted. It's very difficult to make agreements in good faith when neither side will keep their word. So until the very hard commitments are made in each side's heart of hearts for peace, and then they back it up with proper action, there will always be strife. I am sorely disappointed that the Israeli leadership has deliberately made it hard for Palestinian civilians to work, have access to decent food and medical care, and to allow land promised as theirs (years ago) be gradually usurped by Jewish settlers, etc. And then, what Hamas did on Oct. 7, and over the years, the continual assaults on Israel with rockets, etc. I also think that neighboring Arab nations should lend a hand with the refugees instead of rejecting them. I absolutely hate what I've seen happening over the years (I'm 70). There is so much hostility and injury (and dishonesty when promises are made but not kept) that I wonder if there will ever be peace between the two. This puts in terrible relief the failings of human nature. People hold grudges, nurture hate, want revenge, want power. These are not the ways to peace. I pray that one day humanity will see a different way to be with each other. If the leadership won't commit to doing the right thing, then the suffering will continue.
Actually, the descendants of Adam and Eve might be the rightful owners of the area between the Tigris and Euphrates. Aren’t we all descendants of those two? If so, this internecene fighting degrades us all.
I agree
How about trying on, "Two wrongs don't make a right" There is plenty of blame to cover both sides, . . . . and for decades, centuries and millenia.
The vast majority of Israelis are Mizrahi, not European.
I understand from Israelis in the 70's at least, the Mizrahim were treated as second class citizens by the controlling Europeans.
Thank you,Teddi. Well said and succinctly!
One totally can. But these protests aren't
Semite
noun
Sem·ite ˈsem-ˌīt
: a member of any of a group of peoples of southwestern Asia chiefly represented by the Jews and Arabs
a real semite.... a real one. Know
s a good falafel. That's it. I've been to the middle east. Thats the only qualifier.
How about the Egyptians — aren’t they Semites? And doesn’t the designation “Semite” refer to a language group rather than an ethno-religious group?
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Semite#:~:text=Kids%20Definition-,Semite,by%20the%20Jews%20and%20Arabs
Got it. But I am sufficiently old enough to remember when Semites were defined as Jews and Egyptians. Call me old fashioned.
Yup, they are all semitic. Just different tribes, remember?
I watched the Ken Burns documentary on Sunday on PBS: The US and the Holocaust.
I encourage everyone to watch it. Although I remember reading Babi Yar in high school, this documentary made me cry.
“And it cannot be denied that, although we accepted more refugees than any other sovereign nation, America could have done so much more to help the millions of desperate people fleeing Nazi persecution.” - Ken Burns
Yes, and I think some of our unconditional support of Israel can be traced back to our collective guilt at having turned so many Jewish people away. That said, the US has an obligation to respond in real time to the slaughter of Palestinians.
The slaughter of the Palestinians is appalling!
The U.S. and the Allies didn't support the creation of Israel out of guilt. They did it because they didn't want Jewish refugees in their own countries. Israel came into being because of anti-semitism--that of the Nazis, and that of the Allies.
It seems that the United States and western Europe seek to punish Palestinians for the Holocaust. To quote filmmaker Michael Moore, Palestinians didn't build Auschwitz.
He doesn't know about the Grand Mufti.
Do you mean the father of Arafat, leader of the PLO in the 1970s?
Exactly. They would have helped
Of course. The USA was predominantly anti-Jewish in the 1930s.
Reacting to Biden's recent comments, Israel's Minister of National Security, Itamar Ben-Gvir -- a Kahanist -- posted to social media that "Biden LOVES Hamas."
No matter how many billions. No matter how many vetoes in the UN. No matter how many innocent lives are destroyed -- just TRY and draw a line against Zionist atrocities, and this happens.
Bibi must love Hamas for giving them so much money before October 7th
The atrocities belong to Hamas who loves the death of its own people simply for PR purposes. That is a death cult.
Zionists talk about Palestinians exactly the same way the Nazis talked about Jews.
This is where it's sticky, I get it. Understand this: Western values include tolerance, democracy, individualism (up to a point), and a secular rule of law (among other things). BUT the TOLERANT must no tolerate INTOLERANCE. It's a difficult position to be in. We have to be tough when attacked; we have to be willing to do what is basically antithetical to our ideology -- we have to fight and kill when necessary. Then, when the enemy is subdued, we can go back to being empathetic and tolerant. Otherwise, the intolerant will simply take over -- and then it's ALL OVER. How we "talk" is not really important. It's all about actions. Remember the U.S. in WW2. We fought hard and we fought strong. Understand also: love and peace and negotiations are seen as weakness by the intolerant, especially in the Middle East. We are not dealing with a democratic western country with whom we have a difference. This is a fight to the death. We, the West, cannot afford to be "nice." Nice will get us eradicated.
“The oppression that Jewish people have experienced for hundreds if not thousands of years has taught Jews the necessity of standing up to injustice — whatever its form and whenever it appears.”
This is also true of most people who have experienced oppression. While there will always be exceptions (think Clarence Thomas), the experience of injustice is typically a wake up call to see the injustice that is experienced by others. I grew up Catholic in Northern Ireland in the sixties and seventies and experienced prejudice from the police and British army. My experience was at the milder end of the spectrum for sure but it was notable nonetheless.
I along with most people from the Catholic community in Northern Ireland have a heightened sensitivity to injustice inflicted on others. In fact there has long been a close bond between the Catholic community in Northern Ireland and the plight of the Palestinian people born, not from hatred of Jews but from empathy for the Palestinians.
Walk through any nationalist (Catholic) areas in Northern Ireland and you are as likely to see Palestinian flags and murals as Irish ones. Conversely, in the loyalist (Protestant) areas you are likely to see flags and murals identifying with Israel. Forty years ago the two communities were on opposite sides of the apartheid issue too.
As humans we tend to identify with those who are more like us. This tendency extends beyond physical resemblances such as skin color to include those whose lived experience resembles our own.
Dr. Reich This is a great piece and very thoughtful. Thank you for raising awareness of antisemitism.
Arabs are Semites
Please retire forever this kind of clueless comment. SIGH.
Having a difficult time assimilating FACTS or reading definitions?
Fact is the term antisemitism was invented specifically to signify jew hatred
I think I’m going to start calling it Jew-hatred, for the clueless among us.
From what I understand, "anti-semitic" was a term from the European college campuses over a hundred years ago to give intellectual vigour to what was simply Jew hating. Jew hating is the appropriate term. Anti-semitic is a dodge.
Everyone knows what it means. What's the big deal?
From Brittanica: “ The term anti-Semitism was coined in 1879 by the German agitator Wilhelm Marr to designate the anti-Jewish campaigns underway in central Europe at that time. ”
Yes, and by calling Jews "Semites" the Nazis categorized them as a separate "race," inferior and a threat to the "purity" of the Germanic "race." It is a classic example of economic resentment and scapegoating. Any social group can be similarly stereotyped and demonized, with tragic consequences. Consider the other genocides of the 20th century.
That's true too. There are factual definitions, and real-life uses. The words "semite" and "semitic" fall into this category.
but the word being discussed is not "semitic", it's the word "antisemitic", and that means, and has always meant, Jew-hatred and nothing else
Jew-hatred and antisemitism are closely linked but, historically, they are not exactly the same. Antisemitism was, and maybe still is, a racial ideology--it denies humanity to the Jew. Jew hatred is completely irrational.
Jews are not the only Semites. Arabs are Semites. Antisemitism is NOT EXCLUSIVELY about Jews. Because it hasn’t been used to call out ARAB hate in the past, doesn’t make it any less valid. Now people who call out ZIONISTS are be called antisemitic. Which is TOTAL BS. If you don’t know the difference, I suggest you use GOOGLE.
Exactly!
Anti-Semitic people like white supremacists hate both Jews and Arabs- perhaps Arabs to a lesser extent- they are truly anti semites- antiSemitism is a European invention- not a middle-eastern one- the people of the middle-east became anti-Zionist due Zionism’s goal of establishing a Jewish only state in Palestine which resulted in ethnic cleansing and now it is bordering Genocide of native Palestinians. Anti-Zionism does not mean Anti-Jewish or antisemitism- there are more Christian Zionists than Jewish ones and not all Jews are Zionists-
Guess what? "Palestinians" are not native to the area. They are the descendants of Arabs who invaded, long after the Jews lived there. The indigenous population is Jewish.
Arabs are Semites, and both Arabic and Hebrew are Semitic languages.
Let us deal with facts, not political propaganda, ethnic identity, religious myths
The word Semite is supposedly meant to refer to a descendant of Shem
Shem was one of the fictional Noahs Sons, Ashkenazi are supposedly descended from Japet the son of Gomer, not Shem.
The Fictional Abraham descends from Shem, According to the Jews own telling Isaac is the father of Jacob and grandfather of Judah, from which the Jews claim descent
the NORTHERN Arabs claim descent from Ishmael, the brother of Isaac, therefore by the lights of the two myths, NORTHERN Arabs (not Yemeni's) are Semities as well as Sephardic Jews.
Israel has two Jewish populations, Ashenazi who are 45% of the Population and Mizrahi or Sephardic Jews which are 55% of the population
Ashkenazim on the other hand: The name Ashkenazi derives from the biblical figure of Ashkenaz, the first son of Gomer, son of Japhet, son of Noah, and a Japhetic patriarch in the Table of Nations (Genesis 10)
Therefore not semites.
And your point is?
Very good point.
It is so ironic that the Trump Republican party which embraces neo Nazis and white supremacists also embraces Netanyahu and the attempted genocide in Gaza and the West Bank. Meanwhile, the Democratic party which embraces diversity and has little anti semitism, gets attacked for anti semitism because they oppose the wholesale killing of Palestinians.
Not so fast. Not so simple. Many Democratic Party legislators(whose campaigns are funded by AIPAC and Israel-supporting mega-donors)are also hollering about anti-semitism(eg, Schumer)and accusing student protestors--who are comprised of Jews, Muslims, Christians, atheists banding together--of being anti semitic. As as been said here before, being supportive of Palestinian liberation is not "anti-semitic".
I must be getting old. I seem to have forgotten the many students protesting and taking over campus areas, terrorizing people of Russian origins living in the U.S., when Russia invaded Ukraine, bombing its cities and killing thousands, torturing and murdering civilians, and kidnapping Ukrainian children, transporting them to Russia. Oh, wait. That didn't happen.
The US and our tax dollars aren’t funding Russia’s aggression, and Russia’s oppression of Ukrainians and land grab hasn’t been dragging on and ignored by the west for 75 years. yep, you’re way old and blind if you can’t see those very clear distinctions. And your bias blinders are on way too tight.
Not go all Twitter on you, but does that make it wrong to protest the butchers in Israel?
Gail, I'm not sure what your message has to do with mine. Maybe it isn't in reply to me?
Schumer was called an antisemite when he spoke out against Netanyahu. Now he’s invited netanyahu to address Congress
Let's remember Trump moved the American embassy to Jerusalem after a string of presidents lied, saying they would. He also was behind the normalizations between Israel and four Arab states. My own theory born largely of ignorance is that Trump will take a vote wherever he can get it.
The Democrats haven't been pro-Israel for quite a while. They Democrat voters don't like the rich, westerners coming in and taking over the land of innocent people (even though almost every American, or the ancestor of almost every American, some of whom are Palestinians, have done that here and they're not going back to their homelands are they?). Equity has replaced equality. Jews are seen as having too much. Immigration to the US has shifted. The new group wants equity form themselves and someone is just going to have to lose in that.
I know it is complicated. I am a lifelong liberal. But I see these things happening and it is hard to pretend otherwise.
Anti-semistism in every sense of the word is Vile, Cruel, Inhumane and totally unacceptable. We must continue to fight to end this atrocious mindset of irrational, illogical pure hate and evil towards the Jewish people.
Additionally, Benjamin Netanyahu must be driven out of office. He's evil. It's like the fox guarding the hen house.
I disagree with your premise that antisemitism is not a motivation for the current campus protests. "From the river to the sea" is certainly antisemitism at its worst.
River to the Sea is in the charter of the LIKUD PARTY! Netanyahu has used the term REPEATEDLY and no blowback from the AIPAC media.
Exactly. Israel enacted "from the river to the sea" and that's ok, but the people from which it was taken are accused of genocidal motivation if they say it
Why does a Jewish person’s interpretation of that slogan have more weight/value than a Palestinian person’s interpretation? What gives you the right to define it, and dismiss someone else’s definition? please do check your privilege. Built in bias in favor of Jews and against Palestinians fuels anti-semitism.
This mindset (as to who gets to define what a phrase means to one side or the other) came up during the discussions over the renaming of the Washington Redskin. Similarly some used “Black lives matter” to claim whites weren’t important. I didn’t understand how hurtful it was to indigenous people, or how fear could make people shut their eyes to what is happening. Once I understood, I knew the name had to change, and would have preferred “All lives matter.” For a Jewish person that slogan means there would be no Israel. College students aren’t really advocating the elimination of Israel, but they are parroting the phrase. I believe college students are being manipulated by external forces to create chaos. Why aren’t other ongoing atrocities garnering any attention? What the college students really want is for civilians to be protected. Hamas should be held accountable, but that does not justify massive civilian casualties in Gaza. Words matter and we have to try to understand each other if we are going to achieve lasting peace for Israel AND Palestine. The phrase doesn’t articulated the issue well and should not be used.
Trace the evolution of the Likud party, and readers will find it goes straight back to fascist Mussolini and his Black Shirts. The right-wing, militaristic, anti-Judaism faction of Zionism LOVED European fascism. Totally opposed to the principles of Judaism.
Unfortunately, many of the university protestors have not educated themselves as to the meaning and implication of those words. At any rate, abhorrence of and objection to Netanyahu’s Gaza policy is NOT antisemitism.
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" Voltaire
& also a part of the Likud charter. Check it out.
Thank you for this necessary clarification. Demonstrators are not doing enough to emphasize that being against Netanyahu’s government and its policies is NOT antisemitism. This claim is being used to delegitimize honest and necessary protest.
That these protests against the killing of women and children have not been going on in reaction to similar tragedies of greater magnitude in West Africa, East Africa, Myanmar, Sri Lanka, and other locations around the globe illustrates that it is only when the Jews try to defend their nation that it is deemed "genocide" (it does not meet the definition) and is objectionable, leading to calls for ceasefire (that is tantamount to surrender), divestment, and elimination of Israel (unless the river is the Jordan and the Sea is the Persian Gulf!) Not every protester is antisemitic, but when the shoe fits...
Perhaps college students aren't protesting similar tragedies of greater magnitude because these are not being funded by US dollars, or, if they are, the connection is more opaque.
No protests over Russia’s invasion of and war crimes against Ukraine and the Ukrainian people!
Perhaps because US $ are not funding Russia's invasion, but US $ ARE funding Israel's war in Gaza.
I see. It's really about money. Thanks for the clarification.
In a very real sense it is about “money”! Geopolitical interests always are, in the end.
U.S. was selling arms to Saudi Arabia for war in Yemen against Houthis for years. Obama himself ordered drone assassinations in Yemen, including American citizens. While there was some opposition to it, nothing like what we see now.
And when our own administration was engaging in mass child torture at the southern border -- clearly, by their own words, and not just funding, perpetrating themselves -- also, while there was some outrage, there was nothing close to what we're seeing now.
Which is not to say that no one in these protests has pure motivations, but clearly the main driving force is something else. And if you listen to organizers -- it's clearly antisemitism
Anti Israeli government is NOT ANTISEMITISM
Evidence?
I was onboard with your comment until the last few words. It is possible to be anti-Israeli war tactics without being antisemitic.
Of course it’s possible! I never said it’s not possible. I even specifically said some / many participants may have pure motives such as this one, or generic opposition to war or something else like that (whether stupid / uninformed / delusional / rosy-eyed or not, doesn’t matter — but not evil or hate-based). But if one looks at the phenomenon as a whole, it’s clear that it’s driving force is not that.
It’s not “anti Israeli war tactics” and it’s not “without being antisemitic” (even though it’s possible to be both).
I was responding to the comment “Perhaps college students aren't protesting similar tragedies of greater magnitude because these are not being funded by US dollars, or, if they are, the connection is more opaque.”
In response I brought up two cases where in one US dollars did find that, and in the other US itself was perpetrating a crime against humanity, with thousands of children as victims, on its own territory. One would think that’s a clearer connection than funding Israel (which btw also funds Iron Dome without which Hamas rockets would have killed 100k+ Israelis since October).
There are more protests and they are louder, more energetic now, than in either of those two cases? So what’s the difference?
One difference that it’s the Jews they’re protesting against.
Now one may argue it’s not the main factor, but at this point the burden of proof is on them — at least show other factors and explain why they are more important.
I could have stopped here and wait for the proof, but I’ll add more.
The people with pure motives protest what is shown to them. And protest more what is shown to them more frequently and forcefully. These protests have organizers, they are networked groups, many antisemitic.
They shout antisemitic slogans at the protests, and people mindlessly repeat them; they don’t let Jews pass through campus — that’s a picture right from 1938. That’s not being denounced (mostly because it’s organizers doing that) and participants don’t leave or distance themselves from it.
I agree "(T)hese protests have organizers, they are networked groups, many antisemitic." And you agree with my premise as well that, "They shout antisemitic slogans at the protests, and people MINDLESSLY (my emphasis) repeat them..." The solution? I don't know but I try to better educate the ill-informed. Are there anti-semites agitating? YES. Does it make me crazy that these colleges students are being used, and don't apparently have the capacity to dig deeper. ABSOLUTELY. They don't see they're being used by organizers who are anti-semitic. It's a frustrating complexity that MAGA House members will jump on because it serves their purpose to create chaos to undermine Biden.
Oh yeah it’s definitely infuriating that MAGA just try to use it all for scores.
As to the solution, better educate sure is the long term one, although not too clear how to achieve it.
As to short term, from what I’ve seen, the earlier the protests were dispersed the less problematic they were. Didn’t always have to be that brutal, but once it’s over certain line, the administration can’t contain it without calling in the cops… and.. cops are cops.
Also, the earlier dispersals correlated with being in a Southern university, so you also get Southern cops
This is a great example of “what-aboutism.”
The bombing and starving of Gazans has gone way past national defense to massacres.
What is it that Netanyahu really wants since he was involved in funding Hamas?
He wants to stay out of jail.
In the incursion into Gaza the Israeli government has gone WAY beyond defending their nation, and has moved into revenge often against the innocent.
Which of those countries are we giving armaments to?
Good point, Gloria. Out taxpayers dollars go to our arms manufacturers, who profit enormously from all the mayhem around the world.
(By the way, kudos to Joe Biden for standing up to Netanyahu — saying he will block the delivery of weapons that could be fired into densely populated areas of Rafah.
Trump responding that Biden is siding with Hamas.
Trump as usual speaking without any sense.
Trump is echoing Israel's Security minister - Ben-Gvir -- who asserted that Biden loves Hamas. Please wake up.
"America wake up," advised Nicole Kidman during the recent Met Gala. Good advice.
Standing up to Bibi? Surely you jest. Don’t be an empire simp.
https://www.caitlinjohnst.one/p/empire-managers-explain-why-this
“Our rulers don’t think about things like normal people think about them. They don’t think in terms of doing the right thing or acting in a way that benefits everyone. They don’t think in terms of truth and honesty or the lack thereof. They only think in terms of what stories people are telling each other, and how those stories can be changed in a way that advances the interests of the empire they manage.
Empire managers — and highly manipulative people in general — do not use language in the way that normal people use it. Normal human beings use language to connect and communicate, whereas manipulators use it only to extract things they want from people and exert control over them. They do this by working to control the narratives that people have about their material reality.”
Yeah... think Reich has some great points, when it comes to inequality and the challenges it brings to society, and how we need unions to fight for a more equal world.
But saying Biden is "standing up" to Bibi, seems a bit... naive? Biden has been an agressive supporter for Israel his whole life.
Also, even if Biden is - finally - stopping supplying Israel with weapons, Gaza is aldready at a point, where millions of people have had their lives destroyed, and it will take (at least) a generation to rebuild Gaza again.
Agreed. Reich, and far too many of the liberal commenters here, similarly to Heather Cox Richardson and her adherents, while offering decent critique of wealth inequality and the GOP nuthouse, fall short when it comes to acknowledging Democratic Party complicity in our current malaise, as well as mistakenly having faith that the Democrats are capable of throwing off the yoke of corporate ownership in order to fix it. Lesser evil politics is what got us here; it won’t fix what ails us. We can’t save democracy, because we don’t have one; the corporate coup was entrenched when the Clintons/Obamas praised the Reagans/Bushes instead of holding them accountable for criminal behavior. We have to build a new democracy from the grassroots, and neither party in the current duopoly cares about what the people think.
The best comment on this thread!
So true.
It took Biden way too long to make a tough move. And did he really have to bear hug Bibi??